Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: amethyst on August 20, 2005, 09:42:20 AM
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I know that one of my jobs as a kid was to take care of my mother and her feelings. One of my counselors described me as "the family therapist." I was constantly told to put my needs aside and not to be selfish. I was trained to be a good listener, to be compassionate and empathetic. I used to be so co-dependent that I was afraid to express any needs that I might have...in fact, I was afraid to even acknowledge that I might have any needs at all. I was also the family scapegoat. My mother was very N and was very competitive with me, putting me down constantly. My father was a depressed and abusive alcoholic who could be very charming when he felt like it.
Both of my parents are deceased. I have no relationship with my totally N brother who took part in some of the abuse that I suffered as a child.
I have had years of therapy and done a ton of work on myself. I know who I am. Life gives me a great deal of joy. I have male friends, I have a great relationship with my second husband, and I am close to my twenty-year old daughter, who still lives with us. However, I am stuck in a horrible place when it comes to developing true friendships with women. I always end up getting used.
When I first started healing, I became very aware that I was attracted to alcoholic, domineering, charismatic N men. They really rang my chime. I swore off romantic relationships until I got over that "addiction". I was also a single mom with a 2 year old daughter after my divorce and I did not want to have a revolving door of boyfriends coming in and out of our lives. When I first met my second husband, I was not romantically attracted to him because he didn't have that N alcoholic vibe. We became friends and then our relationship slowly developed into a romance. We have been happily married for 13 years. I love him with all my heart and I trust him; the feeling is mutual. Our relationship is a healthy one...we can be who we are with eachother. My male friends aren't Ns either. But I bomb out when it comes to women.
I seem to be absolutely stuck when it comes to female friendships. They always start out great and end when I realize that once again I am re-living the same pattern that I had with my mother, which was all give and no take. I remember coming home one day many years ago and the answering machine was going. My mom was talking to it, just going on and on. I picked up the phone and said hello. She just kept on talking without a break for ten more minutes, never said hello or anything to acknowledge that I was there. My therapist at the time said,"So she could have been just talking to a machine as far as she was concerned. You are a machine to her. Just one generous mechanical ear. How do you feel about that?" I laughed. I have not been able to get past the laugh reaction even now when I think about this. That laugh tells me I am not willing to really feel what was going on.
I just ended a three year friendship with someone, let's call her M, who eventually became a business partner about six months ago. She supplied me with some of the merchandise that I sell. After we started working together, and I was making money for her, she started treating me with almost contempt, as if I had ceased to exist as a person. For instance, I recently lost a beloved pet. She never even mentioned it. Every conversation we had was lengthy and it was usually about her personal problems. M had a traumatic childhood. M would repeat the same stories over and over, word for word, sometimes several times in the same call. It was nothing to be stuck on the phone with M for two or three hours. I confronted her about this several times. M would vow to change but would revert to the same behaviour in the next call. I would end up feeling as if I had been assaulted and bombarded...just used. I told her that she needed to stop using me as a therapist, which is exactly what she was doing. I do have to admit that the trend was there from the absolute beginning of our relationship, but I just did not see it or recognize it for what it was. When my pet died, and I was devastated, that's when I began to think that maybe this was a repeat.
M would also not keep business commitments and had many excuses. If I had something I needed to discuss, she would have every excuse in the world for not dealing with it, from being tired to being dyslexic. She would actually tell me her brain could not process what I was telling her. If I did get a couple sentences in, it would only be with many interruptions and arguments. In addition, as the months have past, she has been sending me things of less quality, or things I would have to take apart and clean in order to sell. I had also addressed this concern, but she kept sending stuff that needed help.
After our last conversation, in which M descended to new lows, I sent her an email. Here is part of it. "You want the conversations to be all about you. If I try to talk about anything that is of interest to me, you use several techniques for forcing the conversation back to yourself. You interrupt, you suddenly have a headache, you say you feel sick, you say you are dyslexic and don't understand, you say you have to go, you start talking to your cat, you tell me how you are flushing your cigarettes, you override me and you talk louder, and you even whine, so in effect you shout me down and shut me up. In other works, you do anything you can to not listen. You are extremely manipulative and controlling....and I am tired of it. When I say ok, you suddenly go back to hours of droning on and on about yourself, so that negates most of the excuses you give. I cannot get off the phone with you either. If you get the feeling I have been avoiding you, I have. Friendship should be a pleasure and a joy...not a f***g unpaid therapy session."
" Until you are capable of making some very major changes in regards to our interactions, I am just not willing to talk on the phone with you. If you do call me and start with the interruptions, overrides, advice...and the monologues, I am going to hang up, so be forewarned.
Please don't tell me you are sorry. That's meaningless."
I also told her I am severing our business relationship. Whatever financial difficulty comes from this will be well worth the peace of mind. My hubby jokingly said now I will have time to start two more businesses and get a PHD on top of it...lol.
Anyway, I am not laughing about my friend. I have had so many friendships like this, but this was by far the most extreme. (I guess I needed to get whacked with a two by four to GET it.) After I sent the letter, I started doing some serious reading about narcissism...and when I ran across a sentence of how narcissism can look like a learning disability and how Ns have trouble listening, I got it. I really got it. Neither my mother or M could listen unless it somehow had something to do with them.
I could just kick myself in the butt. Why can't I get the female friendship thing together the way I have with the male friends?
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Welcome amethyst,
I could relate to so much of what you said--I too had that therapist-kind of relationship with my parents, only my father was more the n and my mother the nabler. They are also both dead and I have only 1 brother with whom I have no relationship.
I had a friend just like the one you described. She would call me every day and spend hours on the phone telling me all about her problems and never once asking me how I was doing. In her mind, she was the only one who ever had problems and she couldn't be bothered with hearing what I might have going on in my life. There finally came a breaking point (after several attempts at confronting her and her saying she would do better), which was, of course, all my fault. By then, I didn't care what she thought. I needed for the relationship to end as it was bleeding me dry. I have not missed that relationship for 1 second in the last 2 years. But as a result of the end of that relationship, I was able to form a very close friendship with 3 other women (it would take too long to explain the scenerio), who are now my best friends.
I wish I could tell you how to find those healthy, mutual friendships, but I don't know that there is a formula. I don't think it is too different from curing yourself of forming relationships with difficult, dangerous men. You need to get yourself healthy, heal the deep-seated wounds, and you will attract other healthy people. My closest friends have developed from a common interest that brought us to a group to pursue that interest, so maybe you could start there.
I wish you well.
Brigid
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Hi Amethyst! :)
Welcome aboard, I am new too! I'm sure you will find this board really helpful as I do.
I can really relate to your story, mine is the exact same but different.
You said that you have done heaps of work on yourself and it sounds like you know a lot about your inner workings and the reasons behind them.
Intellectually you have grasped it, but you are not yet practising it. Easier said than done, believe me, I am in the same boat.
You are allowing these women into your life and this is where YOU are contributing.
You should never have allowed yourself to get so far as trying to explain to "your friend" who clearly, clearly will never understand/llisten to you or stop her behaviour, thus not meeting your needs.
You are choosing the wrong women to have a friendship with.
She will never be able to give you what you want.
She just isn't the kind of person.
These are selfish, needy, inconsiderate, rude women, and you persist with them because they allow you to go back to your childhood and replay the same issues over and over again. You are trying once more to achieve that which you never achieved with your parents.
You will never ever be able to get through to these people.
You will not be able to change them.
This is why you are so frustrated.
you need to recognise these people for who they are and cut them out of your life as soon as possible.
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I wish I could tell you how to find those healthy, mutual friendships, but I don't know that there is a formula. I don't think it is too different from curing yourself of forming relationships with difficult, dangerous men.
Amethyst, you might find it helpful to read my thread "A string of unfulfilling relationships", although my problem is with men, I think there might be a lot on there which you may relate to.
x Selkie x
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All of this has been wonderful advice. It really helped me to read Selkie's thread about the series of addictive relationships with men. I was there once too...addicted to the intensity (and fear) and mistaking it for love. Fear can make your heart pound too....and that can feel like passion.
I just had another incredible insight about my relationships with these women Ns. Instead of the friendships building and developing gradually over time, they were instant and intense, somewhat like the addictive love that I used to look for with the N alcoholic men, but without the sexual element. In each case, the women seemed to idealize me as this perfect "earth mother" type. I was seen as extremely generous and kind. In each case, the women praised me for qualities of generosity and kindness that they saw as extraordinary, which felt very uncomfortable, because I am not extraordinarily generous and kind. I do have limits and boundaries. I also have, like every one else on the planet, my times when I feel selfish and angry...and can be a bit of a grump.
I can see the set-up now. These women were trying to get me to mother them. Because I had to mother my own mother, this was like falling back into an old trap. Once they defined me as being 'all-giving"...I was stuck with that role and felt I had to live up to it. It didn't help that I am basically quiet and thoughtful, sometimes slow to speak. Having grown up in a home where words were used like weapons, I tend to choose my words carefully. They probably saw that as a sign of weakness.
I was very enmeshed with my mother and I became enmeshed with these women. However, I am not all-giving and I do know how to say no. Each of these friendships came to an end when I began to set limits and boundaries. In each case, the women became abusive, controlling and rageful. Each of these friendships has been an incredible energy drain.
The next time I meet someone that sees me as an all-giving "earth mother" with extraordinary qualities, I am going to RUN in the opposite directioin. I think I have finally got it.
I don't miss my "friend"...I am just very upset with myself that I didn't put a stop to it sooner.
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Welcome amethyst,
I can relate! I used to have women friends who abused me, bossed me around, expected/demanded hours of phone attention (even at work!!), and treated me like crap if I had any needs.
Here's what I learned:
--- I was replaying childhood dramas, with these women playing my surrogate sisters and mom. I was reenacting old tapes of submission, rebellion, and hope for connection with difficult, impossible females.
--- I attracted bossy women by catering to them at first, and showing them my boundaries were fuzzy. Then I had trouble getting rid of them because of their rage and anger.
--- I ended up bitterly resentful toward them and guilty for leading them to believe I would fulfill all of their narcissistic demands.
--- I understood these women would NOT CHANGE; this was how they were hardwired. My only option was to cut them off and tolerate the rage and possible retaliation.
--- I understood that I had to give myself baseline standards and boundaries for friendship and stick to them. It was up to me, not up to disturbed women, to enforce my own standards.
--- I understood that I had to avoid, and block, women approaching me who were too bossy and overbearing.
--- I understood that I COULD HAVE surrogate moms and siblings, but they had to be warm and kind. Bossiness was not an option anymore.
bunny
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Oh how wierd all this is... I attract these women like magnets.... i attract women who delight out of putting me down in public. i used to work with this doctor. there were occasions when she would be really lovely and do really kind things, but then when we were amongst others she used to put me down. In front of my patients, during conferences we did together. funnily enough the last time was the night I got together with my ex N. We were at someones leaving party and she told him that if I had a leaving party nobody would go... I never thought of that before I just swapped her for him...
I also attract bossy women. i had this other friend who, after my partner had died used to come over to my house and talk about herself and her troubles with her boyfriend, for hours and hours and hours. When I tried to talk about my grief once she said. "Oh Spyralle you need to realise he is gone and he isn't coming back...." So more about me.....
Then I had this other friend who used to make jokes about my house, and my things... and well me really. Just constant put downs. Then I had this other friend who I used to run around after all the time, then I would ask her to do something for me and she would simply say no I don't feel like it.... And on and on it goes....
Women terrify me. I have one best friend who is not like that and I think she was sent to me from somewhere to help me and keep me sane. I have the most awful experiences with women at work. there a always one narcissistic manipulative woman who makes a beeline for me wherever I go. I must have some kind of tatoo on my forehead that narcissists can spot a mile off saying... Go on give me a good kicking... The pleasure you will have!!!!! Bunny is right, the only option is to cut them off....
i always try to protect myself against these women and I have to say I am about as good at this as I am at protecting myself against N men.... But I am learning now because I am opening my eyes...xxx
Spyralle x
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Welcome Amethyst,
This is a very thought-provoking issue for me. I grew up in a very anti-female house and had no sisters. I also grew up trained to listen all the while not being accepted for who I am and what i think. To this very day, I feel very anxious to express my opinions (thankfully I am still able to form them!). I am very private. I am tolerant of conflicting opinions but silence means agreement to most people (N or not). When I do get the nerve to express myself, many people feel betrayed in a way because they hadn't realized that I didn't agree with them but just entertaining various opinions. So my voicelessness in friendships continue.
I have been burned so many times by the gossips. I don't know how to do that special code language some women have mastered to mask their aggression. It's similar to the Japanese custom of saying "yes" when they mean "yes, I hear you" vs. "yes, I agree with you". I also hold myself apart because I am hardwired to expect other people to be demanding and overwhelming. So I feel better off being alone. It's all or nothing so I will give nothing because I cannot bear to be consumed by your needs (like I was by my father).
My focus at this time is to work on accepting my own opinions and appreciating myself, independently of what other people may think. It's very hard, esp. given the part of the country I live in (very conservative and striving). When I meet people outside our area, I am always relieved and sometimes surprised at how relaxed and accepting they can be. This is also a challenge because I heard over and over while growing up what a "together" family we had vs. the other people with problems. That is, if families have problems, you don't want to spend time with them. I'm just beginning to realize and accept and be grateful that no one has a perfect family, and that's something we all have in common as humans. That's why we help each other. But Ndad didn't help anyone except with blah blah blah advice from afar and a wave of the hand.
Thank you. It helps to know I am not the only one struggling with this. MP
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I was very enmeshed with my mother and I became enmeshed with these women. However, I am not all-giving and I do know how to say no. Each of these friendships came to an end when I began to set limits and boundaries. In each case, the women became abusive, controlling and rageful. Each of these friendships has been an incredible energy drain.
The next time I meet someone that sees me as an all-giving "earth mother" with extraordinary qualities, I am going to RUN in the opposite directioin. I think I have finally got it.
Hi Amethyst, welcome to the board!
I too can relate to what you said especially about your relationship with your mother. I was an extension of my Nmother and didn't have my own identity. I am only now at age 52 beginning to define myself.
With my mother I was a sympathetic ear to all her marriage problems, childhood problems, this problem and that problem. Whatever it was I heard it. However because she is a true N and OCPD she wouldn't go on and on about her problems - she had to look perfect. I too have picked girlfriends who are Nish and needed me as a sounding board.
In therapy this week I realized that I have many dichotomies within me. I've got the love/hate dichotomy. The approval/disapproval dichotomy. The listener/talker. The energetic/laid back. etc. In order to have a relationship with my Nmother had to exercise both parts of these dichotomies. I would vacillate between two dichotomies in every situation. Eventually this became the rule for all my female relationships. I realized this after my last Ngirlfriend relationship. I do think that woman might be a true N too but I will never know for sure. She was nearly like my mother in every way. However I never noticed that. And it was that way from the start. Since the demise of that “friendship” I decided I would not allow any more women friends into my life until I got to the bottom line - why I seek out these women. And until I heal from the things which would attract these women into my life.
Most of the women I attract are motherly BUT want to be “mothered” too. So they have a dichotomous relationship with me and I have one with them. Also when I meet someone I know I must “act” a specific way which attracts this type of person to me. Maybe it is behaving within these dichotomies that attracts them to me?
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All this is so fascinating to read. I no longer feel so isolated and strange, as if I am the only person with the problem of N women friends. I too can relate to being a victim of the gossip and backbiting that sometimes goes on with Nish friends...or as my hubby says, "so-called friends." I have been scapegoated and ostracized more than a few times after being honest about what I really thought and felt. Very painful....especially for someone like me who craves inclusion and acceptance.
I am in my 50's also...and now I have to learn to relate to women in a healthy way. It seems overwhelming. I never learned the language, the cues and the nuances of being with women. I was a tomboy, very active. I had no interest in dolls and jumprope. I also had a problem with being a "brain,"which made it somewhat hard to relate to my peers growing up. On top of that, coming from a dysfunctional home made me feel "terminally unique" and awkward. My mother was not a good role model, either. She hated her sister and her mother...and had no close women friends. I had no sisters and grew up in a male oriented household where I was definitely a second class citizen.
It seems my husband has a better bs detector than I do when it comes to women. He has liked none of the women I have had trouble with. A healthy thing to do may be to have him act as a reality check next time.
I do hope eventually to develop healthy relationships with women, but I just don't know how to do it. It is like learning a new language. I think this is going to be a long haul. I'm just praying for the willingness to try, rather than withdrawing and becoming a female hermit.
When we talk about dichotomies in behavior and feelings, I think that is the human condition. What all of us need is to nurture and to be nurtured; a real friendship is give and take and is accepting of our different ways of being and feeling. I want to meet and get to know people who are ok with me when I'm not exactly on top of the world...and who aren't so demanding that I get sucked up into N stuff and lose myself. I also want my friends to be ok with me when I am feeling wonderful and not have the need to knock me down. So far, my close friends have not been at all accepting of who I really am or how I have really felt. They just wanted me to be all nurturing, generous and kind 100% of the time.
If a woman approaches me and wants instant intimacy, I will hopefully know what a hook that is for me and run from it. I have to take that "earth mother" sign off my forehead.
I guess it is time for me to write down a list of what I want in healthy same sex relationships. I did this with men and it turned my life around.
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I'm not referring to the human condition of dichotomies rather another personality disorder, OCPD or Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder. After posting here I started to read more about the dichotomies in OCPD. I discovered that OCPD is a type of "solution" to the problem of anxiety. The objects of desire and pleasure are turned to for security when basic trust is lost.
When walking my dog this evening I got the biggest hit ever about relationships and my Nmother. She never developed any friendships outside my father's work. :shock: She "related" to the wives of my Nfather's subordinates whom he brought over for business meetings. Those relationships of course were all superficial. And of course she was "above" them because of their husbands' positions.
She never sought after relationships with other women. Her extreme judgmentalness towards women in our neighborhood showed when she decided who I could play with based on who she liked. Basically that was no one. My Nmother had something horrible to say about every women on our block. They were never good enough for her and therefore their daughters never good enough for me. She isolated me from making connections unless they fit her criteria. However she never made friends with any of these women.
Then there was the opposing and confusing behavior of finding "acceptable" mothers when I was in junior high and high school. She would always accept those who she considered "less than" her and never ones who could be her equal or better. She never made friends with these women.
I believe she did have one relationship with a lady across the street. She turned out to be a gossip and would tell everyone, anything that my Nmother would say to her.
It is no wonder that I cannot form healthy female relationships. I had no role model!
amethyst, you said you crave inclusion and acceptance.
Could this be part of the problem?
Just a thought. I know when I need something badly enough I will settle for whatever crumbs I can get rather than waiting for what I want.
At this point I'm not sure what I would desire in a female relationship.
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Sally,
My mother (who I haven't previously considered to be an n, but maybe I need to rethink) hated to have any kind of relationship with women. She would socialize with couples with my father, but many times told me that women alone bored her. That she always preferred the company of men. My mother was a beautiful woman, who kept herself in good shape until the Alzheimer's set in. She got a great deal of pleasure from men complimenting her and noting her beauty. Consequently, she had no friends and seemed to be OK with that. I could never understand it and have always had a good number of girl friends who I value a great deal. I think that in almost every way, I am the opposite of my mother and rather than seeing her as a role model, I endeavored to be everything she was not. My brother is exactly like her and at age 45, doesn't have a friend in the world, or even a spouse for that matter. A very sad existence, imo.
Brigid
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What an interesting thread! So much of it rings a bell. I had a friend EXACTLY like the friend you describe--and I posted here about her and people suggested she might be borderline. I think she is. And I have been caught up in the bitchy-gossipy-yuck several times at work, always with women. I still have a hard time figuring out how to read women and how to guard against the possibility that they will betray my trust or suddenly turn on me in some weird way. It is amazing how many women will just turn around and hurt a "friend" without very much impetus to do so-- just for a funny anecdote to tell someone else or for the chance to feel superior for a minute.
My guess for the reasons for the propensity of women to act this way are that (1) more women than men are borderline, so you're going to find them more often, and (2) women are not allowed to have explicit direct power in the same way that men are, so they need to get power in these subtle and weird ways. And I guess there is a third one: (3) a LOT of women are amazingly insecure and prone to jealousy. Maybe the first two issues cause this third one.
That last one is a killer. Once I notice that a woman has become insecure and jealous around me I know that she will excuse any amount of ill treatment of me. The women who used to call me and give a soliloquy of her troubles, then basically get off the phone when it was my turn to talk, felt this was ok because (she often implied) I have more than she does and I "have no right" to complain like she does. The irony is her conclusion isn't even true. She has it very easy in many ways. Anyway, who thinks of friendship in such a competitive way anyway? It's weird.
So what is the solution? I must say I have a lot of great women in my life, but as in my childhood the women tend to be more tomboyish, independent, and what a very gender-stereotyped person might call "masculine." They tend to have lots of male friends (as I do) and they have success in some area of life that bolsters them. Not that they don't have girly qualities, but the thing they have in common is that they will look you right in the eyes and say honest upfront things and I hardly ever feel that the point of our friendship is to fill up their low self-esteem or to "help them" in some lopsided way. Of course, we do that for each other, but that's different.
But I'm not sure how to handle those other kind of women at work. They still terrify me. I have one right now who seems intermittently bent on going after me. I want to put her energies toward going after someone else but that hasn't happened yet. She only goes after women and there aren't that many around right now. It seems that if I don't do exactly what she wants, agree with her at all times, that she will be filled with rage and try to undermine me. There doesn't seem to be a me in the relationship-- just her, her insecurity and her rage.
It's a mystery. Anyone who has a hint what to do, let me know! At work it's tough because I can't just walk away.
I guess I'd also like the advice everyone else is asking for-- how do I avoid setting these women off on their crazy walk in the first place?
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I do hope eventually to develop healthy relationships with women, but I just don't know how to do it. It is like learning a new language.
If you want to learn how women operate, try this book, You Just Don't Understand by Deborah Tannen. In a nutshell, men are about hierarchies and "rules" of how things work, and women are about seeking identifications. Women crave connections and identifying with other people. Men want to know where they stand in relation to another person. I'm simplifying it; men/women aren't all stereotypes. But I've used this concept in my interactions and it's been quite useful.
Another idea is the yin/yang model. Male energy is about action, making things happen, accomplishing missions, carrying goals into reality. Female energy is about intuition, creativity, mystery, dreams and imagination, caring, emotion. There is also the Shadow side to both of these energies (e.g., male - violence, aggression; female - manipulation, hysteria). We have both male and female energy. When you're dealing with a woman, you might observe whether she is using her female or male energy at that moment, and strategize accordingly. For example, a woman coworker of mine is very shadow-female energy most of the time. She is manipulative, hysterical, meddling, out of control, boundaries are poor, etc. So my strategy with her is to be more "male" and have strong boundaries, be very firm, action-oriented, neutral emotionally. I choose not to join her in her hysteria although she tries to suck me in. Of course, sometimes I get sucked in, but not as often as she attempts it.
If a woman approaches me and wants instant intimacy, I will hopefully know what a hook that is for me and run from it. I have to take that "earth mother" sign off my forehead.
RIGHT. There is no such thing as instant intimacy and anyone offers it has poor boundaries.
I guess it is time for me to write down a list of what I want in healthy same sex relationships. I did this with men and it turned my life around.
Great idea!!
bunny
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I still have a hard time figuring out how to read women and how to guard against the possibility that they will betray my trust or suddenly turn on me in some weird way.
They will generally show red flags ahead of time. For example, you will hear them gossiping about others, they will reveal some meanspiritedness, bitchiness, splitting, etc. It's not much different from men showing red flags about arrogance and lack of empathy.
That last one is a killer. Once I notice that a woman has become insecure and jealous around me I know that she will excuse any amount of ill treatment of me. The women who used to call me and give a soliloquy of her troubles, then basically get off the phone when it was my turn to talk, felt this was ok because (she often implied) I have more than she does and I "have no right" to complain like she does. The irony is her conclusion isn't even true. She has it very easy in many ways. Anyway, who thinks of friendship in such a competitive way anyway? It's weird.
This isn't a friendship. She's just using and abusing whoever lets her.
But I'm not sure how to handle those other kind of women at work. They still terrify me. I have one right now who seems intermittently bent on going after me. I want to put her energies toward going after someone else but that hasn't happened yet. She only goes after women and there aren't that many around right now. It seems that if I don't do exactly what she wants, agree with her at all times, that she will be filled with rage and try to undermine me. There doesn't seem to be a me in the relationship-- just her, her insecurity and her rage.
It's a mystery. Anyone who has a hint what to do, let me know! At work it's tough because I can't just walk away.
I guess I'd also like the advice everyone else is asking for-- how do I avoid setting these women off on their crazy walk in the first place?
There is only one solution to this: show her you have firm boundaries and consistently enforce them. That is the ONLY way to deal with borderlines. And yes, she will be enraged at first when you enforce them. But shortly thereafter, she will respect you and possibly be a little scared. That's what you want.
bunny
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Bunny says:
There is only one solution to this: show her you have firm boundaries and consistently enforce them. That is the ONLY way to deal with borderlines. And yes, she will be enraged at first when you enforce them. But shortly thereafter, she will respect you and possibly be a little scared. That's what you want.
That's interesting, because I have been operating that way for awhile now at work. I realize now it isn't a coincidence-- it is because of my reading and pondering, and because of this group. But I just realized something-- I am in mourning for the stuff I gave up to gain this strength! I want to be best giggly girl friends with these people! Now people are definitely more scared of me, and I get what I want more. They are afraid not to give me what I want :) But I am less the popular most-liked one. There is more tension. I don't get as many warm and fuzzies. This is true from the men as well as the women, although I find men more straight-ahead to deal with.
Now, I know the warm and fuzzies aren't real and they lead to getting burned. But I just realized I liked them. I guess that's why I got sucked in, in the first place. Then I was so *shocked* to be lied to, have my boundaries violated, to have people compete with me on purpose even though they had nothing to gain from it. I had some absolutely appalling situations at work in the last year. And drama galore. No one tries to put drama on my any more, which means (1) yay no more drama in my office for hours with crazy ladies, and (2) I'm by myself more often.... It can be lonely.
But-- recently I met with some folks from work. I had missed a meeting (I am mostly homebound now in my third trimester). It was so interesting. They nervously reported to me what they had done in the meeting to let me know that I would have approved of it. They even made fun of me, pretending to have done something I wouldn't have liked. Then they said "just kidding" and all laughed at me. They had clearly planned the joke. But secretly I was thinking: you would have never done what I wanted last year because you weren't scared of me then. You would have told me you were going to do something and then turned around and done the exact opposite, right in front of me. You can laugh all you want but I got what I wanted this time. And the cool thing is, what I wanted is exactly the beneficial thing for the group, and they seemed to "get" that.
Ah well. I guess it's better to be in this position than to be walked all over. It just takes some getting used to.
WOO-- I just reread the previous. Talk about MALE ENERGY :) Well, at work that's what you have to use. I am really nice and fair to people-- they are not scared of me because I'm a bad person to them. So at least I'm not a a$$hole male :)
Maybe we end up with these crazy-lady friends because at first we like the attention. Maybe? Just a thought...
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Oh, ps I just have to say this-- Bunny, I think you have a very straight-ahead sort of way of speaking and interacting with people-- your energy is very no-nonsense. I like this about you and your posts and look forward to your honest answers to everyone's posts. So I think it is fabulous that your name for the board is "Bunny." Somehow the idea of a bunny (hopping all around, not going in a straight line) is so different from that energy that the juxtaposition is fabulous. Also, it's just a good name.
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Maybe we end up with these crazy-lady friends because at first we like the attention. Maybe? Just a thought...
Your thought seems pretty accurate.
You can have giggly girl friendships with compatible women - just not these women. And thank you so much for your kind words to me. I am touched and honored.
bunny
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I have a real hummer of a migraine so if I sound terse and snippy it's from pain, not because I want to be snippy or terse. Please excuse any typos, because my vision and fine coordination ain't so hot either just now.
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This is very thought provoking.
Anyone who consistently and deliberately competes with me in all interactions is not someone I regard as friend material... but it took me quite some time to realize just how pervasive and toxic this unhealthy competitiveness really is.
It is incredibly pervasive in interactions between and among women.
There's just this terrible need, so often, to put someone else down in order to feel superior - why? because it's too hard to earn their own self esteem, so they destroy other people instead? Textbook N, that, bordering on sociopathy.
and this happens in so many different ways, from 'gotcha' games over the most insignificant things, all the way to deliberately trying to sleep with another woman's husband, in order to debase her marriage.
I attended a recovery group once, and everyone was talking about their collections - coin, stamp, etc., but this one woman started boasting about how she collected other women's husbands sexually... boasting about how she knew that all marriages were bull, and every time she got one of these men into bed, it just proved it... I'd known this mentality existed but never seen anyone openly boasting about it before. She was proud of the damage she did. PROUD!!!!!! Of course, she was unmarried... talk about destructive envy. [I ain't married neither - I didn't feel threatened by this woman, just revolted.]
When I got home, I felt like I needed a bath. Yecch pooie.
In re work... I found this URL last week. Might be useful. The advice, amazingly enough, actually seems feasible in the real world, unlike an awful lot of management-speak.
http://www.psychologyforbusiness.com/DestructiveEmployees.htm
gonna run, my eyes are crossing. cheers everybody.
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Hi everyone,
vunil, your experience with a BPD coworker is very familiar to me. I was younger and was "counting" on the higher ups to be "mature" and see through her shenanigans. However, they are just people also and she pulled the wool over my boss' eyes. My fault for not standing up for myself. I thought the truth would be obvious to anyone paying attention.
If I were older and wiser (like now?), I would have gone to our supervisor and said calmly, "listen, this is going on, I don't know why. I don't ask you to take my word for it and I am not hear to undermine Miss Psycho, but I ask you to make your own observations. Anything she may tell you about me, I ask you to check with others to see if it's true and/or give me a chance to answer for it." In other words, you need neutral witnesses to vouch for you. and to witness your own truth. I'm still working on speaking up proactively for myself. It's hard when there is no obvious opportunity or opening to do so.
When she realizes you are protected to some degree, she'll move on to someone else. BTW, I ended up quitting because of the poisonous atmosphere she created, my boss got fired for his mismanagement of the scene, and the new superior demoted her. So the dog had its day.
Also wanted to add for everyone, I am only now seeing the connection (or perhaps difference ?) between respect and likeability. I used to want to be giggly and all that too. I'm only just learning that people have to respect you first (with your boundary enforcement) and then the liking, giggly part follows. Maybe.
Phew! MP
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The next time I meet someone that sees me as an all-giving "earth mother" with extraordinary qualities, I am going to RUN in the opposite directioin. I think I have finally got it.
I don't miss my "friend"...I am just very upset with myself that I didn't put a stop to it sooner.
Amethyst.
I think you should be proud of yourself and happy at the progress you have made. You correctly analysed what was going on and put a stop to it by setting boundaries. You have a plan to prevent it in the future. How could it be better? You go girl!
gotta run
Plucky
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I want to thank everyone for the wonderful comments. I can identify with everything that is written here. I hadn't really thought about the workplace stuff, but OMG, I have been through that too.
I also was reminded of something by the discussion of the male and female ways of communicating. I am very task oriented. I have been told many times in my life that I am not feminine "enough", whatever that means. I also have been told that I think like a man, but I honestly don't believe that there are male and female ways of thinking. I tend to be very direct with people..."Ok, what's the bottom line?" I have been told that I can be intimidating because of my directness. I have tried to tone my directness down, probably to the point of hitting the opposite wall and coming across as a complete wuss....or maybe an "earth mother?" Soft and feminine and all-giving. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Here I hear my father saying,"Amethyst, if you want to attract the quarterback, you are going to have to learn to talk about football. Even though you aren't interested in it, you will have to pretend to be. It's also important to never let the boys know you are smarter than they are. And if you want to be popular and have lots of friends, you will have to be interested in their interests." The hidden message was that if I didn't do this kind of dissembling I would end up alone, friendless, doomed to eternal spinster-hood and isolation. I told my father that his advice about how to play the social and dating game sounded awful, but I obviously internalized some of it. It didn't help that every women's and girls magazine back in the early 60's gave oodles of advice on how to completely bend yourself out of shape to attract others. I still don't read women's mags because I truly believe they are still in that line of biz.
I am giving much thought to my craving for inclusion and acceptance, and my father's terrible advice, the magazines, the culture...and I am sure this is what has been leading me into these N situations with other women. I not only have been looking for love in all the wrong places, to paraphrase a song, but I have been deforming who I am to be accepted. I think that being seen as an "earth mother" type has been an unconcious way to compensate for feeling somewhat less than womanly. It's been very flattering to a part of myself that has been repeatedly wounded, but it is certainly not what I am.
Many people have said I initially seem somewhat cool and cerebral, not an outgoing people person, rather introverted...and that only as they have come to know me gradually have they found out that I am a warm person with a great sense of humor, lots of interests, and that I am very caring and loving. I have had no problems with the people who have met and been ok with my cerebral and direct side first, amazingly enough, which tells me a great deal right there. That side seems to attract people who are secure enough in themselves to be ok with me as I am and who are patient enough to wait for a relationship to develop naturally, if it is in the cards. I think it is pretty obvious that I need to make friendships with the people who are ok with me being direct and cerebral. Maybe there will be some women who like that side too.
DUH. So soon old and so late smart.
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I also was reminded of something by the discussion of the male and female ways of communicating. I am very task oriented. I have been told many times in my life that I am not feminine "enough", whatever that means. I also have been told that I think like a man, but I honestly don't believe that there are male and female ways of thinking. I tend to be very direct with people..."Ok, what's the bottom line?" I have been told that I can be intimidating because of my directness. I have tried to tone my directness down, probably to the point of hitting the opposite wall and coming across as a complete wuss....or maybe an "earth mother?" Soft and feminine and all-giving. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Wow! I could have written that! I am quite direct in my communication. It has gotten me into hot water with women. They don't like it. Men seem to have no problem with it because I don't elaborate. I'm after the bottom line too. And I've been told the same thing, intimidating because of my directness. However I am also very intuitive and that is the feminine. I use different ways of being in different situations. My husband has told me I'm even too direct for him. That he feels intimidated by that. I had an employer who told me I didn't have a front office personality but could do well with everything else. I don't like the front office position so that suits me fine. :)
Here I hear my father saying,"Amethyst, if you want to attract the quarterback, you are going to have to learn to talk about football. Even though you aren't interested in it, you will have to pretend to be. It's also important to never let the boys know you are smarter than they are. And if you want to be popular and have lots of friends, you will have to be interested in their interests." The hidden message was that if I didn't do this kind of dissembling I would end up alone, friendless, doomed to eternal spinster-hood and isolation.
This must be a recording that some fathers tell their daughters. I got the same thing. However I didn't seem to heed his warnings. I tended to emulate his relationships with men because there wasn't any role model from my Nmother.
... but I have been deforming who I am to be accepted.
Me too. I think I have equal male/female ways of relating and found many women don't care for the directness, at least the ones I've found so far who have all been Nish. I've reserved directness for "business."
I have had no problems with the people who have met and been ok with my cerebral and direct side first, amazingly enough, which tells me a great deal right there. That side seems to attract people who are secure enough in themselves to be ok with me as I am and who are patient enough to wait for a relationship to develop naturally, if it is in the cards. I think it is pretty obvious that I need to make friendships with the people who are ok with me being direct and cerebral. Maybe there will be some women who like that side too.
Thanks for posting this insight. I have noticed that as well and have decided from this day forward I will not hold back being direct and cerebral. I'm turning over a new leaf. :D
I'm introverted and very intuitive. I need to trust what I "pick up" about someone the first couple of times I meet them. These initial feelings I have are very accurate. In the past I have tended to disregard them. First impressions need to be my number one screening device for healthy relationships.
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Thanks for the posts, you guys-- I really relate to them. I had a thought, too-- obviously there are lot of us very similar to each other, regardless of what we were taught "women are like." So let's just look for each other for friendship and leave women who are less like us alone! I would rather talk to someone who communicates directly and isn't so interested in drama, anyway.
I was taught all of that same stuff about "what men want." The problem with acquiesing to that stuff, though, is that you end up with a man who wants things you don't like/respect. I have been on that tightrope my whole dating life. There is truth in the thought that acting more gender stereotyped gets you more attention from the opposite sex. Ah, well. I still have optimism that there are men out there who want someone just like us :) And it only takes one (my quantity over quality days are most definitely over).
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Hello ladies!
My turn to say it--we have so much in common! I saw no value at my house for being a girl, so I was as boyish as possible. I did boy things (sports, etc.) In fact, I'm a little jealous of young women today who can enjoy sports and still be considered an attractive girl. I also refused to hide my intelligence. Amethyst, I think your dad's advice may have backfired anyway, because some (very Nish) guys don't want their girls to know what they know about football. You're just supposed to tell them how great they are!!! bat your eyelashes, honey.
Anyway, I am watching my D go through a lot of the awkwardness I went through with my peers and I just wish I could fast forward it all for her. Her "best friend" displayed NO loyalty when a very controlling girl showed up at our school. The CG targetted my D immediately and "best friend" went along. It was maddening. A very hard lesson. My D still pines for the days went her BF was her BF. Still trying to get her back. But she is making progressing in branching out.
Even though watching this was/is so painful, I do get to learn through observation. That people can deal with how they are the same before they can accept the differences. That people can accept varying levels of intelligence, and income brackets, and family dysfunction in the name of friendship. I was never taught this because my Nfather was just the opposite. We were superior and therefore had nothing in common with the people with problems. Friends were not welcome at my house. Too much of an inconvenience.
As for the work stuff, I, too, didn't "get" it. I thought we were all supposed to be working to reach a common goal. :shock: I didn't know people were just playing a daily chess game of choosing who got to succeed that day and who didn't. Just another popularity contest. Someone told me it was about egos not the work. But that didn't help me because I thought getting the work done would help the ego. Double duh!
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Amethyst, your description fits me so well...are you me?
Ditto to what has been said above. But I would like to add, that once you decide not to have false friends, it might be a long lonely road to find real frineds. Maybe that won't happen for all, but for me, I feel like a hermit. But when I decide to go ahead and make some superficial friends, I just get burnt again, so back in my cave.
a lonesome
Plucky
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(((Plucky)))
I'm a hermit, too. 8)
Some solace can be found in reading Party of One by Anneli Rufus. www.annelirufus.com (http://www.annelirufus.com)
Hugs, MP
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Thanks MP (I always think, member of parliament!)
That was interested reading. it seems odd to 'join' a 'community' of loners!
Plucky
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Be who you are and don't worry about the people who won't like it. There will always be fellow travelers.
bunny
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Amethyst, your description fits me so well...are you me?
Ditto to what has been said above. But I would like to add, that once you decide not to have false friends, it might be a long lonely road to find real frineds. Maybe that won't happen for all, but for me, I feel like a hermit. But when I decide to go ahead and make some superficial friends, I just get burnt again, so back in my cave.
a lonesome
Plucky
((((Plucky)))) My inner voice tells me there is no loneliness greater than that of being caught in a toxic relationship.
I spent sixteen years in my first marriage because I was afraid of being alone, because I had the fantasy that my N ex was really a loving person underneath his facade of controlling abusiveness, because my ex would straighten up and act like a decent human being for awhile whenever I threatened to leave, because I believed that my ex was really capable of permanent change, because I felt sorrow and compassion for my ex (his parents were terribly destructive to him) and because I am an ACOA that can be incredibly loyal. (A positive characteristic that can work to one's detriment if applied to the wrong people.) Looking back, I should have left the week after we got married because the minute we got married, the ex changed the rules and became abusive. The irony was that I was more "alone" in that relationship than I was after I left because so much of my energy and selfhood was spent and wasted taking care of the feelings and demands of my N exhusband.
My illusion of partnership shattered when my daughter arrived. It was if my ex felt,"Ok, I've got you now! You are trapped with a baby and your $18,000 a year job isn't enough to support you both, so I can be as selfish and abusive as I've wanted to be all along. No matter what you say and no matter what you do, I have the upper hand." It was like the start of our marriage all over again, but worse, because there was a child involved. I maybe didn't have the strength or wisdom to leave when I was young, but when I thought of what it would be like for my daughter to grow up seeing abuse, I got courage. I know now that becoming a mother tapped into my inner child, or true self, who had been buried and unheard for decades. I could suddenly see that my marriage looked and felt frighteningly like the marriage of my parents, and as sewage moves downstream, the abuse would trickle down to my daughter, too. As far as my ex was concerned, our roles as mom and daughter were to look pretty (of course no money could be spent on clothes or haircuts), sit quietly, make as little noise as possible, and not cost him anything in terms of time, energy, care or money. I suddenly realized that my ex saw us as cardboard cut-outs.
Things like ear infections, diarrhea and chicken-pox were seen as deliberate attempts by my daughter to cost him money and time. He was angry, insulted, and affronted. How dare she contract an usual childhood disease? Developmental milestones threw him for a loop. How dare she change?
I remember sitting alone at my desk and suddenly thinking,"Do I want to be married to this guy for the next sixteen years?" The answer, from deep inside, where my truth telling true self was buried at the time, was a resounding "NO!!!" I thought,"Ooops! You shouldn't have thought that thought." and the answer from deep inside was,"It's too late. You have already thought that thought and now you need to do something about it because you know it is the truth. If you stay, both you and the baby are going to die. You need to leave with the baby now." So I did.
Within a month, I was in recovery and going to therapy. I never could have had the privacy, the money, the energy, the fortitude or the time to do that within the marriage...my ex would have sabotaged it in every way possible. Cardboard cutouts don't need therapy and recovery.
About the going to die part, a few years later my ex said to me,"It's a good thing you left when you did. I was ready to kill you both. You made me so angry that I knew I was going to get violent. You could both have had a terrible accident and nobody would have figured it out." He was being his usual abusive and very scary self...but what he didn't realize is that he sometimes spoke the truth in his rages.
When I have been caught up in friendships that start to feel toxic, that little inner voice starts to ask questions. "Do you want to be listening to _________ rave on about the same bs at this time next year?" "Do you want to be taking care of ________'s feelings forever? It's not mutual." "Do you think that _______ ever listens to you or sees you for who you are, or are you just a sounding board?" "_________ seems awfully competitive and makes mean remarks about other women. Do you think somebody like that won't turn on you?" "Why do you feel drained and depressed when you are with ________?"
A great miracle is that I am happily married to someone who would hate for me to be a cardboard cutout, who loves me, warts, difficulties and all. The feeling is mutal. I love my husband for who he really is. My loyalty is not misplaced...nor is his. At the base of our relationship is the best friendship either of us have ever had. Because of this, I have to believe there are others who will want to be true friends. Surely my husband and I are not that unique. (He says he also feels like a hermit.)
I just have to listen to that true self and get my ego out of the way. I think I am going to put up sticky notes or write that on my hand until I finally get it.
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Wow, Marta. Very thought-provoking. I think what you say is true.
I have been trying to be conscious of all of these issues in the last couple of months (meaning I have really shifted who I spend time with-- but it has been worth it). But one thing I noticed is that when my boundaries were really violated and I reacted to this, I got major cold FURY from some of my friends. Absolute fury. And from coworkers, too. This was instructive, because I was utterly reasonable in both the judgment I was making and in the way I handled it (I do a lot of checking with well-adjusted people for advice on this!). Just for an example, I had a get-together at my house last weekend and a couple of people came over early to get ready with me. One woman started busily cleaning my desk-- looking at all of my personal papers and bills (when I first saw her at my desk, she had a medical bill in her hand and she was studying it), putting things in piles of her own design, etc. I asked her to stop, please, there was no need to clean my desk and she didn't speak to me for the rest of the evening, except in brief monsyllables. She glared at me throughout the party, angrily. She is now ignoring me completely, for a couple of weeks.
Why did they get so mad?
Well, I must have been letting them violate my boundaries all the time before. I didn't even realize it, or didn't realize I could notice it and stop it.
So why was I with someone who did this? I think it feels like instant intimacy, as someone said earlier. I think early in a friendship if there is a lot of overly personal discussion, advice, and expectation, that it feels comforting. Really it is just boundary violation. And the more subtle thing that happens is this bartering-- as if the N is saying to you "let me act this way with you and I'll give you real friendship and/or make you feel really special." And maybe boundary-violation feels like parenting to those of us who didn't have parents in that sense-- feels like love.
But I like Marta's idea of looking at what we do, too. One thing I think that I have done in the past is (1) let myself get "swept away" in N b.s., both in friends and with men-- I sort of like the grandiosity, the "we are so wonderful compared to others," the "we have this particularly fabulous friendship" stuff, and (2) make it pretty clear early on I will trade my boundaries for the chance at this kind of friendship.
Now I really won't do either of these things. The price I have to pay is having some N's really mad at me. And that's the third thing I think it is easy to do (3) run away from conflict when all the N stuff starts coming out. If we don't say "stop!" to the N behavior it just continues. But saying "stop!" is tough for me, getting much easier, but not my favorite. For a minute I even wanted to tell this woman it was ok to clean my desk! I am proud that I didn't do that.
I will say it is liberating, though, learning to say no :)
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Such good observations! Actually, it's funny, I didn't actually tell the woman not to clean my desk-- what I did was more subtle (maybe a look? maybe I asked what she was up to?) but it clearly communicated because she stopped immediately. I was feeling badly that I wasn't more direct-- I sort of was, sort of wasn't. My message was definitely to stop. I will have to ponder whether what I did was better or worse than a direct statement. She is furious and is avoiding me, but is that bad? It isn't how I would act in her situation. In fact, I would never be in her situation, but if I were my hope is that I would have a conversation about it. So the fact that she is so angry is her problem, and a good indication for me of where things stand with us.
right?
Oh, one thing Bunny said I wanted to come back to-- when I decided to do some housecleaning of the N-ness in my life, I didn't stop being friends with many folks (some I did) but I shifted my energies to other people who are not N whom I don't know as well, and new people I picked out for their lack of N-ness. I expected to be lonely for awhile while I set up this new life (I am an extrovert, like to have lots of friends, so not having folks around would not be the usual deal for me). I was ok with that.
Well, oddly enough, I have been less lonely. When you make a void in your life, people fill it up! It is astounding to witness. Now I have more time and energy for other people and they are there for me. AND here's the kicker-- non N people are better friends. Big surprise, right? But it is so refreshing to be around them, try to emulate them. When I mixed friends in a recent event, I noticed how much calmer and happier my new friends are than my older friends. Maybe that's me, too, calmer and happier.
One more Marta-type observation-- I think that my non N friends didn't like me so much before. I think I had that same nervous whatever that made the N friends like me. Now that I have shucked a lot of that I am easier to relate to, less needy, less shallow, less fidgety.
I like having the strength to look at my own behavior without defensivenes. It's tough to do, and very useful.
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Hello,
I also hate confrontations, and hate having to face the aftermath of saying no. I am just learning that there are ways to protect my boundaries, other than saying outright, please don’t clean my desk! I might say, can we please go to the kitchen, and give a displeased look to the woman who’s cleaning my desk! I am learning to use these subtle ways,
Wow. This brought up so many memories for me. I hate confrontations too, just because as a child of an N I have trouble holding my ground. Wilting flower v. bulldozer. Yay for you for calling this woman on it. Yes, there are two ways to go, the subtle way (redirecting her to the kitchen) in which you have to be on your toes, able to think on your feet, walk on eggshells, etc., and the direct way (which, frankly, is OK too.) She was probably angry because she lost face. But too bad. She was way over the line and got caught. This is HER problem. Isn't just so typical of us to worry about THEIR reaction vs. protecting our boundaries. Maybe you weren't, but I would be.
After a lot of therapy, I was finally able to see through such situations. My D was asked by the biggest jerk of her class if he could see her report card. The policy in our house regardless of how they do is grades are private. So she said, no. Instant knee jerk reaction: You're mean! When she told me this, I laughed. Yes, you're mean because you wouldn't let him have his way with YOUR report card. What made him think he had a right to see your report card? Is he your friend, I asked sarcastically (directed at him, not her).
I'm proud that I am trying to teach my kids they have rights. I was never taught this, and that's why MY boundaries can be fuzzy.
For a more public version of saying no, I recall reading about Joan Kennedy and how she was continually bulldozed by her N mother. And then bulldozed into marrying Teddy (she wanted to call it off when she realized what she was getting into). Finally, during the separation or maybe even after the divorce! the K family expected her to campaign for him (something she of course had done in the past, was proud of, and had gotten NO recognition or appreciation for from the family, esp. Teddy)...and she said no. She sat there at a meeting while everyone tried to bulldoze her again, cajole her, intimidate her. She finally learned to stand her ground.
I think the moral of the story is, when people around me are getting upset, I am probably protecting a boundary. If I cave to win their approval, I will probably damage myself and regret it later.
Reading about this woman rummaging through your personal information really makes me angry. Esp the part about her getting upset with you. She was probably thinking about retaliating against you for having the gall to kick her rear. Phooey!
Last thing:
Be who you are and don't worry about the people who won't like it. There will always be fellow travelers.
Thank you Bunny!!! I had a meeting yesterday with a small group of women I like very much, but they make me self-conscious. I remembered this line and was able to relax and go with the flow. Que sera sera type of feeling. This board is really helpful.
MP
PS, Marta, just read your post that went up while writing mine...
I will have to ponder whether what I did was better or worse than a direct statement.
No, you don't have to ponder this. You have rights, you knew it and she knew it. Don't let her anger and reaction cause you to doubt yourself in anyway. She is probably regarding you as a threat now, because you have some pretty good "dirt" on her behavior and you might tip off her other "friends". I liked reading about your "housecleaning". I am going to give this some thought myself. Hugs, MP
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When I learned about boundaries, and decided I wanted them, my mantra was, "No one f---s with me. I take no crap from now on. No exceptions." This didn't lead to any aggressive confrontations. I just developed a vibe that told people not to mess with me. They knew I would enforce my boundaries and not cross theirs. It was like a new world. I started commanding respect from people. I dislike confrontations and avoid them whenever I can. But if I have to confront, I will, and the person will know my displeasure even if I say very few words. My goal is to send this message: "Do not f--- with me." That's all I want them to know.
bunny
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I have said those words in my head a lot in the last 8 months or so-- I thought it was the pregnancy! It is a funny thing to say in one's mind-- I call it my inner Clint Eastwood. It probably does narrow the eyes in just the right way so that they do get a little scared. I don't always remember to feel that way, though-- it does sometimes compete with other less healthy voices like "what are you thinking," "what are you wanting" and less commonly these days, thank god, "how can I make you like me?"
But isn't that weird that I had the same words in my mind? It's not exactly the buddha's mantra but for women who have been trampled on it's probably a good thing to say in one's mind now and again.
Most of us on this list could benefit from saying this in our minds a little more. It can be our secret motto.
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So why was I with someone who did this? I think it feels like instant intimacy, as someone said earlier. I think early in a friendship if there is a lot of overly personal discussion, advice, and expectation, that it feels comforting. Really it is just boundary violation. And the more subtle thing that happens is this bartering-- as if the N is saying to you "let me act this way with you and I'll give you real friendship and/or make you feel really special." And maybe boundary-violation feels like parenting to those of us who didn't have parents in that sense-- feels like love.
But I like Marta's idea of looking at what we do, too. One thing I think that I have done in the past is (1) let myself get "swept away" in N b.s., both in friends and with men-- I sort of like the grandiosity, the "we are so wonderful compared to others," the "we have this particularly fabulous friendship" stuff, and (2) make it pretty clear early on I will trade my boundaries for the chance at this kind of friendship.
Whoa! This is how it HAS been in most of my friendships.
The N starts off the relationship with intimate personal discussion usually revealing something to me she would never do with anyone. At least that is what she says. Of course this must translate to me as you are so great or wonderful or comforting to me compared to others. That I believe is the bait. Then the person turns the table from this point to control the relationship and become the "mother." Although they occasionally use the bait to hook me into the relationship, keeping me in their game. And I, of course, want close intimacy so I am baited and hooked and then share my stuff which only gives them more bait to hook me.
Thanks Marta and Vunil, great insights. :D
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How did you develop the vibe? What is your vibe like? red, green or purple, smooth or rough? :lol: What obstacles did you face during this process? What was the fallout? Can you elaborate? What did you do with folks who kept transgressing your boundaries, inspite of the vibe, who were not necessarily Ns ?
The vibe was just a decision that I carried out. I don't recall facing many obstacles because this vibe tends to discourage that. People who transgress my boundaries get blocked, often by my ignoring them or just being a closed book.
One of my problems is that I often want the other person, provided it is not an N, to see my view point when I am enforcing a boundary.
I understand wishing the other person would hear the explanation but they won't. It works better to explain nothing and just show people through your behavior.
bunny
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This is all great stuff.
I know it is very important to look at behavior and clean it up. I know that I used to be passive-aggressive and miss deadlines and committments because I was such a people pleaser that I said yes to everything. Of course I was totally overwhelmed and angry and resentful underneath, which led to either being snippy or depressed. Then I would wonder why people got angry at me!! That's one of the first things I straightened out many years ago. I am real good at saying no.
Bunny, you are right. There is something about explaining when you make a reasonable statement or request that weakens it. My therapist taught me that. It took me a long time to get comfortable with it. I thought I had to justify everything.
I just have to learn not to get hooked in and to develop a don't f*** with me attitude.
I did a lot more thinking about my friend....and after doing some reading, have decided she is more of a borderline with some N characteristics. She can be very generous and caring at times, but it has been a long time since I have seen that side of her. She is not somebody that is evil...so I have gotten over my anger to a great degree. I just cannot talk to her while she is so needy...that's the bottom line, and it may take years for her to get past being so needy. She needs to learn to grow a healthy adult and reparent herself, which is a monumental task. There is a tremendous amount of trauma in her past that she has not dealt with. We're not talking about a little PTSD, here. I identified with her because I used to be so much like her.
Anyway, she emailed me, apologized, does not want to lose the friendship, appeared to accept responsibility. I wrote her and told her that I am not willing to talk because we will fall back into the same old patterns...and I owned my responsibility for not strictly setting boundaries. Supposedly she is starting therapy next month and I told her that she needs to replace my very non-therapeutic ear with that of the therapist, who will listen to her and assign her tasks. I told her that by continuing to talk to her, I was enabling her to stay in the same old crap and also victimising myself. I told her we can keep in touch with email, but the business relationship is over, too. She also said she is having panic attacks, which I believe, but hopefully therapy will help her with those; her panic is a sign that she needs to change, which is what I told her. Since it is difficult, at least at this point in her life, for her to stay still and composed long enough to put together a coherent email, I don't think I will hear from her frequently. I feel good because I feel I have left it in the most loving fashion possible while protecting myself. My hubby calls it black belt Al-anon. :lol:
As far as that woman who got mad that you caught her looking at your personal papers, Vunil, I think she is feeling lots of false pride and anger that is covering up the guilt underneath.