Author Topic: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long  (Read 8125 times)

vunil

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2005, 02:40:26 PM »
Bunny says:
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There is only one solution to this: show her you have firm boundaries and consistently enforce them. That is the ONLY way to deal with borderlines. And yes, she will be enraged at first when you enforce them. But shortly thereafter, she will respect you and possibly be a little scared. That's what you want.

That's interesting, because I have been operating that way for awhile now at work.  I realize now it isn't a coincidence-- it is because of my reading and pondering, and because of this group.  But I just realized something-- I am in mourning for the stuff I gave up to gain this strength!  I want to be best giggly girl friends with these people!  Now people are definitely more scared of me, and I get what I want more.  They are afraid not to give me what I want :)  But I am less the popular most-liked one.  There is more tension.  I don't get as many warm and fuzzies.  This is true from the men as well as the women, although I find men more straight-ahead to deal with. 

Now, I know the warm and fuzzies aren't real and they lead to getting burned.  But I just realized I liked them.  I guess that's why I got sucked in, in the first place.  Then I was so *shocked* to be lied to, have my boundaries violated, to have people compete with me on purpose even though they had nothing to gain from it.  I had some absolutely appalling situations at work in the last year.  And drama galore.  No one tries to put drama on my any more, which means (1) yay no more drama in my office for hours with crazy ladies, and (2) I'm by myself more often....  It can be lonely.

But-- recently I met with some folks from work.  I had missed a meeting (I am mostly homebound now in my third trimester).  It was so interesting.  They nervously reported to me what they had done in the meeting to let me know that I would have approved of it.  They even made fun of me, pretending to have done something I wouldn't have liked.  Then they said "just kidding" and all laughed at me.  They had clearly planned the joke.  But secretly I was thinking:  you would have never done what I wanted last year because you weren't scared of me then.  You would have told me you were going to do something and then turned around and done the exact opposite, right in front of me.  You can laugh all you want but I got what I wanted this time.  And the cool thing is, what I wanted is exactly the beneficial thing for the group, and they seemed to "get" that.

Ah well.  I guess it's better to be in this position than to be walked all over.  It just takes some getting used to.

WOO-- I just reread the previous.  Talk about MALE ENERGY :)  Well, at work that's what you have to use.  I am really nice and fair to people-- they are not scared of me because I'm a bad person to them.  So at least I'm not a a$$hole male :)

Maybe we end up with these crazy-lady friends because at first we like the attention.  Maybe?  Just a thought...

vunil

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2005, 02:44:29 PM »
Oh, ps I just have to say this-- Bunny, I think you have a very straight-ahead sort of way of speaking and interacting with people-- your energy is very no-nonsense.  I like this about you and your posts and look forward to your honest answers to everyone's posts.  So I think it is fabulous that your name for the board is "Bunny."  Somehow the idea of a bunny (hopping all around, not going in a straight line) is so different from that energy that the juxtaposition is fabulous.  Also, it's just a good name.

bunny

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2005, 03:00:15 PM »
Maybe we end up with these crazy-lady friends because at first we like the attention.  Maybe?  Just a thought...

Your thought seems pretty accurate.

You can have giggly girl friendships with compatible women - just not these women. And thank you so much for your kind words to me. I am touched and honored.

bunny

Stormchild

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2005, 03:46:26 PM »
I have a real hummer of a migraine so if I sound terse and snippy it's from pain, not because I want to be snippy or terse. Please excuse any typos, because my vision and fine coordination ain't so hot either just now.

**********
This is very thought provoking.

Anyone who consistently and deliberately competes with me in all interactions is not someone I regard as friend material... but it took me quite some time to realize just how pervasive and toxic this unhealthy competitiveness really is.

It is incredibly pervasive in interactions between and among women.

There's just this terrible need, so often, to put someone else down in order to feel superior - why? because it's too hard to earn their own self esteem, so they destroy other people instead? Textbook N, that, bordering on sociopathy.

and this happens in so many different ways, from 'gotcha' games over the most insignificant things, all the way to deliberately trying to sleep with another woman's husband, in order to debase her marriage.

I attended a recovery group once, and everyone was talking about their collections - coin, stamp, etc., but this one woman started boasting about how she collected other women's husbands sexually... boasting about how she knew that all marriages were bull, and every time she got one of these men into bed, it just proved it... I'd known this mentality existed but never seen anyone openly boasting about it before. She was proud of the damage she did. PROUD!!!!!! Of course, she was unmarried... talk about destructive envy. [I ain't married neither - I didn't feel threatened by this woman, just revolted.]

When I got home, I felt like I needed a bath. Yecch pooie.

In re work... I found this URL last week. Might be useful. The advice, amazingly enough, actually seems feasible in the real world, unlike an awful lot of management-speak.

http://www.psychologyforbusiness.com/DestructiveEmployees.htm

gonna run, my eyes are crossing. cheers everybody.



miss piggy

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2005, 05:15:56 PM »
Hi everyone,

vunil, your experience with a BPD coworker is very familiar to me.  I was younger and was "counting" on the higher ups to be "mature" and see through her shenanigans.  However, they are just people also and she pulled the wool over my boss' eyes.  My fault for not standing up for myself.  I thought the truth would be obvious to anyone paying attention.

If I were older and wiser (like now?), I would have gone to our supervisor and said calmly, "listen, this is going on, I don't know why.  I don't ask you to take my word for it and I am not hear to undermine Miss Psycho, but I ask you to make your own observations.  Anything she may tell you about me, I ask you to check with others to see if it's true and/or give me a chance to answer for it."   In other words, you need neutral witnesses to vouch for you. and to witness your own truth.  I'm still working on speaking up proactively for myself.  It's hard when there is no obvious opportunity or opening to do so. 

When she realizes you are protected to some degree, she'll move on to someone else.  BTW, I ended up quitting because of the poisonous atmosphere she created, my boss got fired for his mismanagement of the scene, and the new superior demoted her.  So the dog had its day. 

Also wanted to add for everyone, I am only now seeing the connection (or perhaps difference ?) between respect and likeability.  I used to want to be giggly and all that too.  I'm only just learning that people have to respect you first (with your boundary enforcement) and then the liking, giggly part follows.  Maybe.

Phew! MP

Plucky

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2005, 11:17:00 PM »
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The next time I meet someone that sees me as an all-giving "earth mother" with extraordinary qualities, I am going to RUN in the opposite directioin. I think I have finally got it.

I don't miss my "friend"...I am just very upset with myself that I didn't put a stop to it sooner.


Amethyst.
I think you should be proud of yourself and happy at the progress you have made.   You correctly analysed what was going on and put a stop to it by setting boundaries.  You have a plan to prevent it in the future.  How could it be better?  You go girl!
gotta run
Plucky 

amethyst

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2005, 02:15:28 AM »
I want to thank everyone for the wonderful comments. I can identify with everything that is written here. I hadn't really thought about the workplace stuff, but OMG, I have been through that too.

I also was reminded of something by the discussion of the male and female ways of communicating. I am very task oriented. I have been told many times in my life that I am not feminine "enough", whatever that means. I also have been told that I think like a man, but I honestly don't believe that there are male and female ways of thinking. I tend to be very direct with people..."Ok, what's the bottom line?" I have been told that I can be intimidating because of my directness. I have tried to tone my directness down, probably to the point of hitting the opposite wall and coming across as a complete wuss....or maybe an "earth mother?" Soft and feminine and all-giving. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Here I hear my father saying,"Amethyst, if you want to attract the quarterback, you are going to have to learn to talk about football. Even though you aren't interested in it, you will have to pretend to be. It's also important to never let the boys know you are smarter than they are. And if you want to be popular and have lots of friends, you will have to be interested in their interests." The hidden message was that if I didn't do this kind of dissembling I would end up alone, friendless, doomed to eternal spinster-hood and isolation. I told my father that his advice about how to play the social and dating game sounded awful, but I obviously internalized some of it. It didn't help that every women's and girls magazine back in the early 60's gave oodles of advice on how to completely bend yourself out of shape to attract others. I still don't read women's mags because I truly believe they are still in that line of biz.

I am giving much thought to my craving for inclusion and acceptance, and my father's terrible advice, the magazines, the culture...and I am sure this is what has been leading me into these N situations with other women. I not only have been looking for love in all the wrong places, to paraphrase a song, but I have been deforming who I am to be accepted. I think that being seen as an "earth mother" type has been an unconcious way to compensate for feeling somewhat less than womanly. It's been very flattering to a part of myself that has been repeatedly wounded, but it is certainly not what I am. 

Many people have said I initially seem somewhat cool and cerebral, not an outgoing people person, rather introverted...and that only as they have come to know me gradually have they found out that I am a warm person with a great sense of humor, lots of interests, and that I am very caring and loving. I have had no problems with the people who have met and been ok with my cerebral and direct side first, amazingly enough, which tells me a great deal right there. That side seems to attract people who are secure enough in themselves to be ok with me as I am and who are patient enough to wait for a relationship to develop naturally, if it is in the cards. I think it is pretty obvious that I need to make friendships with the people who are ok with me being direct and cerebral. Maybe there will be some women who like that side too.

DUH. So soon old and so late smart.


Sallying Forth

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2005, 03:07:29 AM »
I also was reminded of something by the discussion of the male and female ways of communicating. I am very task oriented. I have been told many times in my life that I am not feminine "enough", whatever that means. I also have been told that I think like a man, but I honestly don't believe that there are male and female ways of thinking. I tend to be very direct with people..."Ok, what's the bottom line?" I have been told that I can be intimidating because of my directness. I have tried to tone my directness down, probably to the point of hitting the opposite wall and coming across as a complete wuss....or maybe an "earth mother?" Soft and feminine and all-giving. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Wow! I could have written that! I am quite direct in my communication. It has gotten me into hot water with women. They don't like it. Men seem to have no problem with it because I don't elaborate. I'm after the bottom line too. And I've been told the same thing, intimidating because of my directness. However I am also very intuitive and that is the feminine. I use different ways of being in different situations. My husband has told me I'm even too direct for him. That he feels intimidated by that. I had an employer who told me I didn't have a front office personality but could do well with everything else.  I don't like the front office position so that suits me fine. :)

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Here I hear my father saying,"Amethyst, if you want to attract the quarterback, you are going to have to learn to talk about football. Even though you aren't interested in it, you will have to pretend to be. It's also important to never let the boys know you are smarter than they are. And if you want to be popular and have lots of friends, you will have to be interested in their interests." The hidden message was that if I didn't do this kind of dissembling I would end up alone, friendless, doomed to eternal spinster-hood and isolation.

This must be a recording that some fathers tell their daughters. I got the same thing. However I didn't seem to heed his warnings. I tended to emulate his relationships with men because there wasn't any role model from my Nmother.

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... but I have been deforming who I am to be accepted.

Me too. I think I have equal male/female ways of relating and found many women don't care for the directness, at least the ones I've found so far who have all been Nish. I've reserved directness for "business."

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I have had no problems with the people who have met and been ok with my cerebral and direct side first, amazingly enough, which tells me a great deal right there. That side seems to attract people who are secure enough in themselves to be ok with me as I am and who are patient enough to wait for a relationship to develop naturally, if it is in the cards. I think it is pretty obvious that I need to make friendships with the people who are ok with me being direct and cerebral. Maybe there will be some women who like that side too.

Thanks for posting this insight. I have noticed that as well and have decided from this day forward I will not hold back being direct and cerebral. I'm turning over a new leaf. :D

I'm introverted and very intuitive. I need to trust what I "pick up" about someone the first couple of times I meet them. These initial feelings I have are very accurate. In the past I have tended to disregard them. First impressions need to be my number one screening device for healthy relationships.
The truth is in me.[/color]

I'm Sallying Forth on a new adventure! :D :D :D

vunil

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2005, 06:23:53 AM »
Thanks for the posts, you guys-- I really relate to them.  I had a thought, too-- obviously there are lot of us very similar to each other, regardless of what we were taught "women are like."  So let's just look for each other for friendship and leave women who are less like us alone!  I would rather talk to someone who communicates directly and isn't so interested in drama, anyway.

I was taught all of that same stuff about "what men want."  The problem with acquiesing to that stuff, though, is that you end up with a man who wants things you don't like/respect.  I have been on that tightrope my whole dating life.  There is truth in the thought that acting more gender stereotyped gets you more attention from the opposite sex. Ah, well.  I still have optimism that there are men out there who want someone just like us :)  And it only takes one (my quantity over quality days are most definitely over).

miss piggy

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2005, 12:14:37 PM »
Hello ladies!

My turn to say it--we have so much in common!  I saw no value at my house for being a girl, so I was as boyish as possible.  I did boy things (sports, etc.)  In fact, I'm a little jealous of young women today who can enjoy sports and still be considered an attractive girl.  I also refused to hide my intelligence.  Amethyst, I think your dad's advice may have backfired anyway, because some (very Nish) guys don't want their girls to know what they know about football.  You're just supposed to tell them how great they are!!!  bat your eyelashes, honey.

Anyway, I am watching my D go through a lot of the awkwardness I went through with my peers and I just wish I could fast forward it all for her.  Her "best friend" displayed NO loyalty when a very controlling girl showed up at our school.  The CG targetted my D immediately and "best friend" went along.  It was maddening.  A very hard lesson.  My D still pines for the days went her BF was her BF.  Still trying to get her back.  But she is making progressing in branching out. 

Even though watching this was/is so painful, I do get to learn through observation.  That people can deal with how they are the same before they can accept the differences.  That people can accept varying levels of intelligence, and income brackets, and family dysfunction in the name of friendship.  I was never taught this because my Nfather was just the opposite.  We were superior and therefore had nothing in common with the people with problems.  Friends were not welcome at my house.  Too much of an inconvenience.

As for the work stuff, I, too, didn't "get" it.  I thought we were all supposed to be working to reach a common goal.  :shock:  I didn't know people were just playing a daily chess game of choosing who got to succeed that day and who didn't.  Just another popularity contest.  Someone told me it was about egos not the work.  But that didn't help me because I thought getting the work done would help the ego.  Double duh!

Plucky

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2005, 12:39:03 PM »
Amethyst, your description fits me so well...are you me?
Ditto to what has been said above.  But I would like to add, that once you decide not to have false friends, it might be a long lonely road to find real frineds.  Maybe that won't happen for all, but for me, I feel like a hermit.  But when I decide to go ahead and make some superficial friends, I just get burnt again, so back in my cave.
a lonesome
Plucky

miss piggy

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2005, 12:52:50 PM »
(((Plucky)))

I'm a hermit, too.   8)

Some solace can be found in reading Party of One by Anneli Rufus.  www.annelirufus.com


Hugs, MP

Plucky

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2005, 01:05:27 PM »
Thanks MP (I always think, member of parliament!)
That was interested reading.  it seems odd to 'join' a 'community' of loners!
Plucky

bunny

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2005, 02:39:29 PM »
Be who you are and don't worry about the people who won't like it. There will always be fellow travelers.

bunny

amethyst

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Re: Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2005, 06:42:00 PM »
Amethyst, your description fits me so well...are you me?
Ditto to what has been said above.  But I would like to add, that once you decide not to have false friends, it might be a long lonely road to find real frineds.  Maybe that won't happen for all, but for me, I feel like a hermit.  But when I decide to go ahead and make some superficial friends, I just get burnt again, so back in my cave.
a lonesome
Plucky


((((Plucky)))) My inner voice tells me there is no loneliness greater than that of being caught in a toxic relationship.

I spent sixteen years in my first marriage because I was afraid of being alone, because I had the fantasy that my N ex was really a loving person underneath his facade of controlling abusiveness, because my ex would straighten up and act like a decent human being for awhile whenever I threatened to leave, because I believed that my ex was really capable of permanent change, because I felt sorrow and compassion for my ex (his parents were terribly destructive to him) and because I am an ACOA that can be incredibly loyal. (A positive characteristic that can work to one's detriment if applied to the wrong people.) Looking back, I should have left the week after we got married because the minute we got married, the ex changed the rules and became abusive. The irony was that I was more "alone" in that relationship than I was after I left because so much of my energy and selfhood was spent and wasted taking care of the feelings and demands of my N exhusband.

My illusion of partnership shattered when my daughter arrived. It was if my ex felt,"Ok, I've got you now! You are trapped with a baby and your $18,000 a year job isn't enough to support you both, so I can be as selfish and abusive as I've wanted to be all along. No matter what you say and no matter what you do, I have the upper hand." It was like the start of our marriage all over again, but worse, because there was a child involved. I maybe didn't have the strength or wisdom to leave when I was young, but when I thought of what it would be like for my daughter to grow up seeing abuse, I got courage. I know now that becoming a mother tapped into my inner child, or true self, who had been buried and unheard for decades. I could suddenly see that my marriage looked and felt frighteningly like the marriage of my parents, and as sewage moves downstream, the abuse would trickle down to my daughter, too. As far as my ex was concerned, our roles as mom and daughter were to look pretty (of course no money could be spent on clothes or haircuts), sit quietly, make as little noise as possible, and not cost him anything in terms of time, energy, care or money. I suddenly realized that my ex saw us as cardboard cut-outs.

Things like ear infections, diarrhea and chicken-pox were seen as deliberate attempts by my daughter to cost him money and time. He was angry, insulted, and affronted. How dare she contract an usual childhood disease?  Developmental milestones threw him for a loop. How dare she change?

I remember sitting alone at my desk and suddenly thinking,"Do I want to be married to this guy for the next sixteen years?" The answer, from deep inside, where my truth telling true self was buried at the time, was a resounding "NO!!!" I thought,"Ooops! You shouldn't have thought that thought." and the answer from deep inside was,"It's too late. You have already thought that thought and now you need to do something about it because you know it is the truth. If you stay, both you and the baby are going to die. You need to leave with the baby now."  So I did.

Within a month, I was in recovery and going to therapy. I never could have had the privacy, the money, the energy, the fortitude or the time to do that within the marriage...my ex would have sabotaged it in every way possible. Cardboard cutouts don't need therapy and recovery.

About the going to die part, a few years later my ex said to me,"It's a good thing you left when you did. I was ready to kill you both. You made me so angry that I knew I was going to get violent. You could both have had a terrible accident and nobody would have figured it out." He was being his usual abusive and very scary self...but what he didn't realize is that he sometimes spoke the truth in his rages.

When I have been caught up in friendships that start to feel toxic, that little inner voice starts to ask questions. "Do you want to be listening to _________ rave on about the same bs at this time next year?" "Do you want to be taking care of ________'s feelings forever? It's not mutual." "Do you think that _______ ever listens to you or sees you for who you are, or are you just a sounding board?" "_________ seems awfully competitive and makes mean remarks about other women. Do you think somebody like that won't turn on you?" "Why do you feel drained and depressed when you are with ________?"

A great miracle is that I am happily married to someone who would hate for me to be a cardboard cutout, who loves me, warts, difficulties and all. The feeling is mutal. I love my husband for who he really is. My loyalty is not misplaced...nor is his. At the base of our relationship is the best friendship either of us have ever had. Because of this, I have to believe there are others who will want to be true friends. Surely my husband and I are not that unique. (He says he also feels like a hermit.)

I just have to listen to that true self and get my ego out of the way. I think I am going to put up sticky notes or write that on my hand until I finally get it.