Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Sallying Forth on August 31, 2005, 06:26:20 PM
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Since Monday morning my mind has been preoccupied with the catastrophic disaster in the Gulf States which was hit by Hurricane Katrina. I've been praying for those people who are suffering, may have lost someone, have lost their homes and livelihoods, and the governments which must deal with the enormous task ahead of them.
For anyone here who knows someone or is suffering ... (((((((((((((())))))))))))) I continue to pray. My thoughts are with you during this time.
The U.S. has never dealt with destruction of this magnitude.
From the pictures I've seen it looks like a tsunami hit the coast of Louisana and Mississippi.
I think what saddens me the most about the devastation is NO MENTION about the devastation from any list where I am a member. Everyone acts as if nothing has happened. Maybe people have their head stuck in the sand. Maybe it is apathy. I don't know.
I just wrote an email to one company online where I purchased equipment and asked why there is no support and no mention of this unpresidented disaster. They were gungho about the tsunami relief and with this there is not one word anywhere on their web site. This is a well known, large corporation.
Only one newstation in my area is carrying any extensive information about this horrific disaster. The rest of the stations didn't even interrupt the regular broadcasting today for a special announcement from the President. :shock:
To say I am shocked is an understatement. :x :( :shock:
Germany has offered their assistance IF we ask.
Excuse me, do we REALLY need to ask???????? :x How many zillions of times has the U.S. given assistance to other countries without their asking us to come. We've always just done it.
The beginning of my 2 cents.
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This is a mixed bag for me. I have lived and still own property in a very hurricane prone area, near where Andrew struck. I saw the devastation of Andrew. Although not having directly experienced major damage, I know just how many things, the average person does not even think about, that will have to be accomplished to repair those areas. It is a massive effort that will take years. The areas will never be the same. That life is gone. At least for the areas around Andrew, they came back better than ever.
On the other hand, I am always very wary of people who get overwrought about disasters. I dont know how to explain this feeling I have. I think a lot of people, particularly codependents and Narcissists, can get very emotional about something that is happening half way around the world to somebody else. Often, particulalry the narcissists, could care less if their own spouse or children had adequate food. Also, in my opinion only, some codependents can use emoting about events that do not directly effect them as a way of avoiding dealing with their own feelings. I know this because I did it too. So much easier to spring in to action for somebody else than to deal with my own issues.
I am also just cynical enough to question where all that aid money goes? Little often makes it to those that are actually hurting. Sometimes what they need is able bodies and most of us cant leave work and go help.
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Sally,
It is shocking and heartbreaking and I cannot imagine what those people are going through. I wouldn't be too quick to write off groups or corporations as being apathetic. They may be trying to see what the needs are and how best to help. This situation has been unfolding over the last week and it's been difficult to get a sense of the degree of devastation. I heard one of our local radio stations announce this afternoon that a relief effort is starting tomorrow morning to collect money and other needed items to be sent to the area. I think many want to help, but you want to know that your donation is going to a legitimate organization. A disaster of this magnitude is unprecedented in our country. I agree that other countries should step up and help us as we would help them. Hopefully, we will see that start to happen soon.
I send my prayers to all the people of that region and their families. I also pray for their leaders and all those who will come to rebuild the area. New Orleans is a jewel of a city with the best food I've ever had. I look forward to being able to return some day.
Brigid
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On the other hand, I am always very wary of people who get overwrought about disasters. I dont know how to explain this feeling I have. I think a lot of people, particularly codependents and Narcissists, can get very emotional about something that is happening half way around the world to somebody else. Often, particulalry the narcissists, could care less if their own spouse or children had adequate food. Also, in my opinion only, some codependents can use emoting about events that do not directly effect them as a way of avoiding dealing with their own feelings. I know this because I did it too. So much easier to spring in to action for somebody else than to deal with my own issues.
I'm not overwrought about this. I'm not too codependent ... so maybe I AM a N?
I do have some heavy duty issues I am dealing with right now and those issues are separate from what I see and hear and don't see and hear.
This is not half way around the world from me.
This forum is about opinion and that is what I have expressed.
The corporation I mentioned had immediately shut down the advertising on their web site for the tsunami disaster but there's not even a mention of this disaster in their own country.
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Hi Sally forth,
This is only my opinion. I wasnt talking about you or anybody else in particular. I do think there is a propensity, at least among the codependent, to want to concentrate more on external issues than internal issues. It is easier and often less painful. If someone is always running around helping others and getting their juice from that, it doesnt leave much time to concentrate on their own issues. Personally I have observed myself doing this in the past and friends of mine, who believe they have codependent tendancies. Of course the Narcisisist would not give it that much reflection. They would do good to make themselves look good. Charity begins at home.
Having said all that, do not fear or waste your time fretting. THe USA always, always, come through in a crisis. People will be donating money from all over the country. Various aid organizations are allready there from military units to utility restoration people, doctors, nurses, etc.
These type of disaster bring up emotions in most of us. Better to feel those emotions and let them pass than get stuck in the worry or fretting mode. My advice only. I am not a licensed therapist nor do I play one on TV.
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Sallying, I am with you all the way on this one.
I was house-sitting for someone who was on a cruise in the South China Sea on the day the tsunami hit... this person, who is a healthcare professional, was totally indifferent to the disaster and thought it was silly of me to have been concerned for their welfare. A number of other healthcare workers vacationing in the area ended their holidays right then and stayed to volunteer. Not this one, though.
There was a lot of news coverage of tourists playing in the surf -- days later -- as bodies were still being recovered from it. Merely walking past this person now makes my skin crawl. Not that they were out there playing in the corpse-laden waves, but that their attitude certainly didn't rule it out as an option.
I don't think it's only the codependent and spotlight seeking who have strong responses to disasters. The severely abused and traumatized have such responses too. After what we have been through, isn't it reasonable that we might identify with people who are trapped and powerless and possibly in peril of their lives? It's a deep identification, but I suspect it's there.
Some of these folks start organizations like MADD or establish refuges for battered women, and some volunteer for Doctors Without Borders, or the Red Cross, and some just donate to the most trustworthy rescue operation they can find, and watch the news, and pray.
Matthew 25:34 Then will the King say to them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me food: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came to me.
25:37 Then will the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came to thee?
25:40 And the king will answer and say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] to one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] to me.
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Hi SF,
It's weird that you mention this today--I was just taking inventory of my own response. And just yesterday I was wondering why the police were so focussed on the looting instead of on rescue efforts. But that being said, I have to say I haven't really had free access to my TV because of back to school activities etc. But today I was just thinking how awful this all is and why is there not more of an outcry or outreach. Our school would have done something already for the tsunami victims--but maybe because we have just started back up we are a little flatfooted.
It really hit when a reporter local to the area said New Orleans as we knew it is gone.
MP
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Hello Sallying,
I agree that the lack of response and uproar has been baffling. You could not open an email or go to a store without being asked to contribute to the tsunami disaster. I am not saying that was a bad thing, on the contrary. However, at the exact same time, the tragedy in Sudan was at its peak to that date and the casualties were enormous. Very little general uproar was heard and the finds raised were a drop in the bucket, even though significant charities sich as the Red Cross and Medecins sans frontieres were askign people to give to other causes as well . Now, when the disaster victims are once again poor and predominantly minority. the issue is not receiving the same attention.
It makes me sick.
Plucky
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I think that in the U.S. we tend to rely too much on the structures that are in place. "The Red Cross will take care of it," we say, or "Doesn't FEMA take care of that sort of thing?"
Whether it's $20 or or $2000, the Red Cross will need every cent we can spare to provide immediate and long-term relief to the victims. I went to a meeting today at which several churches--none of them wealthy--were represented, and all of the pastors were talking about what they're going to do to mobilize their congregations' impulse to help. (The meeting was on an entirely different subject, but of course this is not far from anyone's mind.)
I am saddened but not surprised by the looting. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking food, water, diapers, underwear--any of the basic supplies for which people are becoming increasingly desperate. Beyond that, law and order must be restored. It's a short distance from unchecked looting to gangs of armed bullies roaming the streets and declaring their own martial law. The situation must be brought under control before it escalates.
People are both better and worse than I generally want to believe. Maybe that says more about me than it does about people. Anyway, I think that apathy begins at home. We are only touched by what we allow to touch us. I have some strange ideas about that. I give money and cigarettes to a lot of panhandlers, and when I don't, I try to remember to look them in the eye and say, "I'm sorry, but I can't today." It's almost a dare I have with mysellf: I refuse to learn not to look at these people as individuals. I'm not sure there isn't something weird about that, but it's what I believe, and I try to live by it. The same goes with this disaster. I refuse not to be touched enough to do something, even if it's only to write a check.
Does it really matter whether there's a jar in the grocery store or somebody organizing a telethon? Maybe there will be, maybe there won't. The media and celebrities are fickle that way. But I did learn tonight that Larry King will do a three-hour show on Saturday evening on how individuals can help. What matters is that each of us does what s/he thinks is right, whether Larry King urges us to or not.
My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their loved ones. I have never been so grateful for clean clothes and air conditioning.
Best to all,
daylily
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I guess I am not seeing this lack of interest that you describe. Every network is talking about it constantly. There are trucks full of supplies being sent from everywhere. The main problem they have with supplies is no place to store them in the area. The Astrodome in Houston is taking 25,000 victims into their facility by bus. They have set up food, water, bedding, hot showers, child care, computers, telephones and whatever else people may need to at least be somewhat comfortable in the short term. Telethons are being organized; I'm sure every major city like my own is putting together relief efforts--what more do you think should be done by those of us too far away to physically help? The National Guard is being deployed, they have hospital ships heading to the area and other military vessels, but they will need several days to get there. Right now their main concern is to rescue those who are trapped and that requires special equipment. The military has provided whatever they can in that area. The looting is a problem, but it always is in this kind of situation. They also had to release prisoners from the local jail in New Orleans and they are now running free and wreaking havoc I'm sure.
There are certain groups that are in place and organized to help with disaster relief, i.e. The Red Cross, but anything else requires groups coming together to make something happen and that does take a little time to mobilize. I certainly am seeing that happening everywhere I look.
Brigid
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Sallying, I am with you all the way on this one.
I don't think it's only the codependent and spotlight seeking who have strong responses to disasters. The severely abused and traumatized have such responses too. After what we have been through, isn't it reasonable that we might identify with people who are trapped and powerless and possibly in peril of their lives? It's a deep identification, but I suspect it's there.
Some of these folks start organizations like MADD or establish refuges for battered women, and some volunteer for Doctors Without Borders, or the Red Cross, and some just donate to the most trustworthy rescue operation they can find, and watch the news, and pray.
Matthew 25:34 Then will the King say to them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me food: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came to me.
25:37 Then will the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came to thee?
25:40 And the king will answer and say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] to one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] to me.
You nailed my feelings right on the head. That's exactly what I'm experiencing - identification. I've even lived in similar situations - no running water and no power.
Since I have no money to give - very limited budget, I recently had to decide between fuel for my car or groceries - I am praying. And where I see descrepancies in peoples' behavior I am mentioning it - the corporation showing sign of apathy to disaster in their own backyard.
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Hi SF,
It's weird that you mention this today--I was just taking inventory of my own response. And just yesterday I was wondering why the police were so focussed on the looting instead of on rescue efforts. But that being said, I have to say I haven't really had free access to my TV because of back to school activities etc. But today I was just thinking how awful this all is and why is there not more of an outcry or outreach. Our school would have done something already for the tsunami victims--but maybe because we have just started back up we are a little flatfooted.
It really hit when a reporter local to the area said New Orleans as we knew it is gone.
MP
Actually the police have NOT been focussing on the looting. They are totally undermanned and cannot even fend for themselves. They have no infrastructure for communicating, getting fuel for their vehicles, arresting looters, etc. There's no place to put the looters if they were arrested. There was an interview with a couple officers in the field and they are in fear of what could happen if the National Guard doesn't arrive soon. It could get worse. The police are trying to maintain some semblance of calm and that is all.
A therapist who deals with disasters said the people looting are living with so much angst and anxiety about their present and future lives that they are resorting to these behaviors to quell their feelings. Kind of like developing an addiction or compulsion to deal with feelings.
I wonder what I would do in their situation. No food, no water, no home - lost and seemingly forgotten. I might resort to stealing what I need to survive. Like I said I can identify because I lived through impoverished times.
One in particular was during Christmas about 10 years ago. Our family had almost no food, no running water (water was frozen in pipes), poor sanitation and terrible living conditions. Someone from a church organization surprised us with a huge care basket, enough food for a month. I wasn't expecting it and was so grateful to get it.
Yep, New Orleans is gone along with several other small cities along the Mississippi coast. The amount of destruction is unfathomable not to mention the deaths which they thought would NOT happen. Many stayed in their Mississippi homes along the beach thinking that if they survived Camilie they could survive this one. It was the wall of water that they didn't anticipate.
I just keep praying ...
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I refuse to learn not to look at these people as individuals. I'm not sure there isn't something weird about that, but it's what I believe, and I try to live by it. The same goes with this disaster. I refuse not to be touched enough to do something, even if it's only to write a check.
It's strange when we think that ignoring suffering should be the norm. That denying the humanity and the equal value of another human being is wierd. It is sad.
For the record, when my N mom sees a homeless person, she tells a story about a panhandler who was faking it, and actually wealthy and driving a Cadillac. When I mention that I do not believe that most of the desperate people living out of a shopping cart are faking their misery, or driving Cadillacs, her response is that they ought to go out and find a job. She had a career in a 'helping' profession. Her attitude makes me sick and I am sure not to mimic her in any way.
Checks are needed, just like work and prayers, so if your contribution is to write a check, that is wonderful. If you are praying, that is wonderful. If you are donating your precious time, that is wonderful. It's all good.
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I'm with Brigid on this one-- I think it's been all over the news. It just happened-- the relief efforts will be enacted exactly in proportion to the tragedy-- the Red Cross is great at that. I think that there has been tons of press on it, and everyone I know has talked about it
I don't think it is a disaster on par with the tsunami-- the tsunami killed 56000 (fity six thousand!) people. But it is a disaster and the press definitely is taking notice, as are people. I have gotten e-mail from several organizations already (Mercy Corps, John Kerry's list, and People for the American Way-- guess my politics!) asking for money and outlining relief efforts.
Actually, when a couple of people were on the news saying this was "the same as the tsunami" I was a little taken aback. It is orders of magniture less disasterous than the tsunami (the death toll is likely to be around 100, not 56,000). And I don't think it's the worst disaster we've had on our soil-- even the worst natural disaster. But I'm not apathetic, promise :)
Oh, I was also interested in the idea of N's getting wrapped up in disaster. My experience has been the opposite. I noticed after Sept. 11 a lot of very N people on both sides of the political fence dismissed the human suffering altogether and pronounced that the disaster "showed" that "[insert whatever political or religious thing they thought previously] was true." It was appalling, to me at least. As if the disaster existed to prove some point, magically the point they wanted to make. I have heard other very N people make big pronouncements about who died and who did not, as if there was rhyme or reason to it and those who died deserved to. Grrrrr.
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Where I work, even though many of the folks in my task group expect to be sent to help in NOLA one way or another, sooner or later, no bo dy is tal king a bout it. They're talking about the gear they need.
I can just about understand that... it's going to be harrowing, and the ones with any sensitivity are going to have some nightmares after. There will be positives too, they are going to do a lot of good. But focusing on practical details keeps the mind from going down some unpleasant paths... and it'll be too late to wish they'd brought DEET when they are up to their waists in swamp crud and skeeters.
At least they are going. I can't; so I'm praying and giving $... and I'll end up juggling their responsibiities while they're on rotation. So it all evens out.
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I'm thinking back to the Tsunami disaster. As I recall, it took about 2-3 days for even Oxfam to start asking for aid, although they immediately said they were mobilizing and would be co-ordinating aid. So did the Red Cross. I think many people were ready and willing to give right away, but there was nothing in place because tsunami was such a shock and so unprecedented. It takes awhile to set up websites and get coordinated.
In the case of Katrina, very little news was coming out of the area at first because of downed communications. There was streaming video from a local station that finally went down, and from the Times-Picayune blog, but even then, the news was spotty and very localized. Then for awhile, it seemed that NOLA had been spared the worst. I don't think anyone realized that some of the Ponchartrain levees had been breached until late Monday or early Tuesday, and for a long time the reports were unconfirmed. It looked as if the worst part of the disaster was in the Biloxi, Ocean Shores, and Gulfport areas at first. Once again, it's going to take awhile for aid requests to get coordinated. Right now the emphasis is on getting the survivors out of NOLA, a massive task, and getting relief supplies into the Mississippi areas. Most of the infrastructure in both areas has been destroyed, so FEMA is facing a nightmare.
On the news tonight, I heard that many companies are asking for help and donating help. I have enough faith in human nature to believe that help will pour in. Caring about others is not an illness; being altruistic and concerned, doing what you can, is no sign of pathology. As poor as we have been, we sent what we could to the Tsunami victims and I know that we will also donate to the victims of Katrina, whatever we can and when we can. Unfortunately, with a disaster of this magnitude, especially in NOLA, it is going to take years to clean up and rebuild, if it is even possible. Many of the people who have lost everything were poor and had no insurance. As a human, I identify with that. I see that it is healthy to give but not become obsessed.
I also agree that there will be some "handwringers," people who have not dealt with their own issues, that will become obsessed with moaning about this disaster and saying how much they care on message boards. After the sensational news is over, they will be back to Natalee Holloway or something like that. I seriously doubt that most of the "handwringers" will donate anything.
About the looting....For the most part, the NOLA police were sympathetic to the looting for food and water, but not the other goods. Some of those people have been without anything to eat and drink, without medications, in extreme heat and humidity for days. Under those circumstances, taking what is necessary for survival is not a crime. The police are also commandeering items from stores. In an emergency it can be necessary. I don't believe the media should put much if any focus on the looting. It serves no purpose, except maybe to dissuade the kind of potential donors that usually require heavy persuasion to give anything. Anyone with good judgement knows that a disaster of this magnitude will bring out the best in many and the worst in the few. I don't think this needs to be pointed out.
On a happier note, I saw those people that have been trapped in the Superdome waiting on the freeway to get into busses. I was so impressed at how well they were keeping it together. I can't even begin to imagine how frightened, how devastated, how uncomfortable and how lost they must feel. Prayers, materials, physical help, sending money...it all helps.
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The count for the tsunami was more like 300.000. Some refuse to count the bodies washed out to sea. 56,000 is only the number of buried bodies. I agree that the Katrina disaster is not on par with the tsunami, but we will be hearing about it for quite some time. I do think the media is focusing on structural damage and looting because the actual number of dead thus far is much less than what was "anticipated."
I do not sit watching endelessly as the disaster is exploited over and over and over again, but from what I've read in the paper and seen on TV during quick updates, the response is growing as more information becomes available. The preparation and plans for this disaster were inadequate to say the least. I am wondering if those people who stayed behind after being told to evacuate, did so because they didn't have the means to leave or because they didn't dare to leave their material possessions behind? By contrast, the tsunami victims had no warning and because these folks have so few material possessions, when faced with the choice of risking life or possessions, it's not a hard decision to make.
Why isn't the National Guard out there rescuing those folks stranded on rooftops? Why weren't emergency plans ready to be enacted, this was a predicted grade 5 storm which is the worst we've seen. Why aren't these questions being asked? It may have to do with the N of our nation which focuses outside its borders without taking care of the internal problems we face. When will we ever learn?
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I am wondering if those people who stayed behind after being told to evacuate, did so because they didn't have the means to leave or because they didn't dare to leave their material possessions behind?
I have heard people on the scene (in reports) say it was a combination of both. Some people didn't have the means and others chose to stay to "protect" their homes and property. I wonder if there isn't another reason--nowhere else to go. If it were me in similar circumstances, perhaps I would feel safer at home base clinging to the familiar vs. voluntarily becoming a gypsy, not knowing where to go. I would probably also be in some kind of denial, ignorance or what have you that I could not understand just how devastating this one was going to be.
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This is the victims’ moment, not ours. If you were stuck in an ICU needing help, would you want your family to quarrel over who takes` home the apathy trophy?
I guess my point was missed ... :?
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SF -
actually, i kind of wondered the same thing at first.......
but i think it is sinking in fast.... it has been on my tv for the last 5 hours and all day, major news productions that are very in depth. nobody is talkign about it on most lists i read...... except on one list, where a member lost everything, and thinks that her cat was killed. i hope that it is safe hiding somewhere becuase cats can be like that. on that list, the whole list mobilised very quickly and set up a system to find and contact that member and find out how she was. i mean, it was instant. they are taking turns caling her and telling us how she is and supporting her.
i wonder if there were several factors - one the lack of info.. plus maybe, just not quite believing it was really so terrible. i know thats how i felt. i thought, well it was a bad storm but itll be some trees down and all that. i was pretty surprised to see how serious it actually was, and im still surprised. i dont think it has to be as bad as the tsunami, its a serious disaster.
im not sure we are prepared to see stuff like that right here on the home front...... so once it sinks in... im going to be very curious to see how people do react to it. i am hoping, that we pull together and rise to it. :}
dm
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nobody is talkign about it on most lists i read...... except on one list, where a member lost everything, and thinks that her cat was killed.
miss piggy: Some people didn't have the means and others chose to stay to "protect" their homes and property. I wonder if there isn't another reason--nowhere else to go.
Actually I have known for a long time that if one of these things ever hits where I live, I will be one of the casualties, because shelters refuse to take animals, and I refuse to leave mine. I know several other people who feel the same way. This isn't just "handwringing" either. We had a severe ice storm a few years back and I stayed put until I found somewhere that would take in my four cats along with me. Three days at 40 degrees eating cold food out of cans in an otherwise abandoned apartment complex. I know my cats knew something was wrong, and I really believe they were comforted that I stayed with them.
marta: ... I felt this to be [t]he most genuine and heartfelt statement in this entire discussion... I like your response because it is neither a sloppy knee jerk reaction, nor does it scapegoat others. Rather, it is the statement of an individual who cared enough to think for herself what it means to be human.
Wow. Did you actually mean to insult and deprecate every other poster on this thread, including the person who started it?
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thanks for the post sf,
the one thing that sticks in my mind, after this and watching the Sept. 11, special on the National Geographic Channel a couple of weeks ago, is that we don't appear to be as prepared as you think this country would be to deal with catastrophes of great magnitude. it was quite shocking for me to see the citizens, not the National Guard or Police and Rescue, rafting the elderly and sick over the flood water with inflatable beds. it's quite disturbing to see that in 2005 in this country where FEMA has only been recently reorganized, into the Office of Homeland security to be able to handle disasters of this proportions, the slow, disorganized response. it should be frightening to every american. what if that were your hometown? with the global warming and terrorrism, who of us is immune? no one.
it makes us look not just apathetic but unprepared.
tif
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Actually I have known for a long time that if one of these things ever hits where I live, I will be one of the casualties, because shelters refuse to take animals, and I refuse to leave mine. I know several other people who feel the same way. This isn't just "handwringing" either. We had a severe ice storm a few years back and I stayed put until I found somewhere that would take in my four cats along with me. Three days at 40 degrees eating cold food out of cans in an otherwise abandoned apartment complex. I know my cats knew something was wrong, and I really believe they were comforted that I stayed with them.
hey stormy. id be doing the exact same thing.. ive got two lizards and 3 snakes, and now 14 baby snakes>! although its true that snakes can swim. i would probably rescue the neighbors cat too if necessary since he spends half the time at my house anyway. ive got pillowcases tucked away here downstairs in case i ever have to make an emergency quick exit with reptiles. :}} oh my god - i have a chicken too. i guess she'll go in the cat carrier. i could see myself packing the goldfish in a plastic bag. im a hopeless, hopeless, hopeless case. pray nothing like that happens to anyone, ever again....... those peopel are really suffering.
its pretty horrible looking devastation.
i literally saw footage of a woman tonight on a bridge who had just watched her husband die right in front of her, she was waving at an ambulance and they just drove by. he died while she was holding him, and all they told her was to move his body so it would not start to smell. she was sitting by his body looking like you would expect someone to look in that position. on another bridge people were pointing to where one of the refugees had just jumped off and killed himself. he couldnt take it i gues. people were just walking past his body. then another man was upset beucase his wife of 29 years was swept away and he had to go identify her. this is really something.
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Stormy,
Like you, my caring and love of the animals always makes me worry in these kinds of situations. They showed a video of a sea lion trapped in rubble yesterday and it stabbed my heart. I certainly feel great misery at watching the human suffering, but I always worry most about those poor defenseless pets and wild animals who have no one to care for them. Fortunately, there are many animal rescue groups that are very well manned with lots of volunteers who I'm sure will be heading to the area to help with that effort. If I didn't have a child at home to care for, I would be on my way to help.
Brigid
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Stormchild:
No.
I meant applause for Daylily, not insult for Stormchild.
I must admit to being peeved at what I see as scapegoating (I also took care to point out that I myself was not above this) and “look how uncaring all these people around the world are compared to us” tone that I see in some posts in this thread though.
Peeved, yes, insulted, no. When I am peeved, I see that it is my problem, and an innocent one at that. When I feel insulted by you, I make it a problem you intentionally caused for me…..
I am curious as to how the animals behaved during this catastrophe, since most remained unharmed during Tsunami. Does anyone know?
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For those who wondered why the National Guard or other helping agency wasn't there immediately, it does take time to organize these efforts. It is not like the US government has a complete manned unit that can be deliverd by aircraft overnight. I am sure all the agencies are in place, but it still takes time to deploy. Plus, as you probably know now, many of the roads to these areas are also destroyed.
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I am curious as to how the animals behaved during this catastrophe, since most remained unharmed during Tsunami. Does anyone know?
i get the feeling wild animals are more tuned into stuff like that.... and probably have their own techniques for getting out of the way.... i ssaw one instance where certain caterpillars had climbed higher in some trees they ussually live in....... possibly flying animals hit the road, and land animals hopefully found someplace to tuck away and stay out of the way. those animals evolved there and are familiar with flood you would think, unlike peoples.
animals are pretty resourcesful. i saw a show about i think it was australias grassfires. it looked pretty devastating and it appeared as though there could be no life left but when you looked closely you could see thta even very tiny insects were finding places to be safe - deep inside plants, or other places. at these times animals that would normally conflict or even eat each other just cuddled up close to each other inside these places and waited for the fire to burn out. it was pretty amazing.
one thing that struck me - they were saying that one of the reasons this was so extra devastating, was becuase the area's natural wetlands are being destroyed by human development at a rate of one acre every 24 -minutes-. not hours, minutes. they were saying that these wetlands provided a natural sponge to soak up flooding like this and without the wetlands, the flooding was much more severe. sooooooo that is heavy food for thought to me..... :( :(
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My response is that I don't watch much t.v. but anytime I have turned it on I see the devestation in New Orleans. I don't have apathy at all. I care....I care a lot for any persons....I am a member of freecycle.org and have just this week gave a young mother-to-be baby blankets, crib sheets, stuffed animals and other misc. items and a family from New Orleans is on their way to our area having lost everything & I am joining in gathering clothing for the family of 6 and asked my husband to take a cothing collection at his work place for them as well. We can't do everything that we'd want to do, but most Americans and humans in general in my opinion would do what they could to help those in need. We see the citizens helping on another in New Orleans, we saw it during 9-11 and anytime there is tragedy.
When I had a dying child a friend contacted a local t.v. station and they got a retired group of puppeteers to put on a personal performance for my child for free - b/c my baby LOVED the muppets.
I can't speak for anyone but myself.....and I would do anything I could to help a person in need.... particularly a child or animal.
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I just want to say that I too have not watched any TV since my ex left and really have missed the terrorist bombings in London (The day he went) and now this, and only yesterday in London a mother chose to jump in front of a train with her baby and five year old child. My heart and prayers go out to all these people who are suffering disaster in one form or another and only hope that one day we will know the reason behind it all, besides the fact that in times of fear and despair and desperation people become more united......
Spyralle
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Hi, Sally-- Just wondered if you are feeling better about the response? It was definitely a little delayed reaction, this pause, and then... a torrent of responses (no pun intended). I have gotten tons of e-mails about helping, from all sorts of organizations, and every list I am on is talking about it. So maybe people just needed one more day, maybe to process? :) Moveon.org is sponsoring a program to link of stranded folks with homes. Pretty cool.
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Haven't watched reports on it until now on the news (Have been very busy) ...
Very very sad, can't believe there is delay with help...and it's on the doorstep!!!
I really hope help comes soon
x Selkie x
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I live in Plano TX, 5 hrs away from Huston near Dallas , One of my brother-in laws lives in New Orleans. We have not herard from them and waiting to find out if they made it out safely.
The news about the people left behind and the small children being raped and murdered is so shocking.
I haven't been watching tv but will be home on some vacation time and now seeing what is taking place.
I remember my D showing me the storm coming in on the computer screen. I don't think anyone was prepared for the distruction. The leveys busted and homes underwater now no way to get power to remove the water and the displacement of millions. I see the desparation the hospitals leaving people to die.
With phone lines down no way for communication, people have no way to ask for help.
I also see people coming together to help, it takes time to set up the help needed.
Hundrends of Semi trucks with food are driving to the area with gas prices rising to over 3-4 dollars a gal.
I wish the gas companies would give a break on the gas for those semi trucks and buses.
And no gas available for people to drive to safety. The lines for food are 5 miles long.
People are gathering to rescue others and many are looking for ways to help. 93milion in 3 days has been donated to the red cross. The Dallas area 30 min away from me will be taking over 25,000 displaced people.
It will take time and how sad that the murders and rapes are added to the pain and sufferring.
My prayers are with those families in need . OR
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Well now it seems apathy has died (people are really trying to help) but bad behavior has increased.
But I do like how the country does seem to be trying to come together to help.
I hope it won't make anyone angry if I say that our disaster relief organizations didn't seem particularly competent over all of this. It's a little frightening.
God bless everyone in that area and here's to recovery for all of them. Many of them have no safety net-- no way to rebuild. I guess it is good for all of us to see that our country does contain thousands of people in such dire straits-- it's tough to ignore it when it's right there in front of us. I really feel for them. I honestly had no idea how poverty-stricken those areas were until now.
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I think it is important that anyone who prays, start or continue praying right now adn for as long and often as you can.
Plucky
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But I do like how the country does seem to be trying to come together to help.
I hope it won't make anyone angry if I say that our disaster relief organizations didn't seem particularly competent over all of this. It's a little frightening.
God bless everyone in that area and here's to recovery for all of them. Many of them have no safety net-- no way to rebuild. I guess it is good for all of us to see that our country does contain thousands of people in such dire straits-- it's tough to ignore it when it's right there in front of us. I really feel for them. I honestly had no idea how poverty-stricken those areas were until now.
hi vunil :) thanks for forgiving me for being b#@chy :}} !! >
i find this sobering in so many ways..... it would be healthy imo if it brought to public awareness exactly the extent of the kind of poverty that really exist in some areas of this country... and thats =all= im going to say about that.. !
also i find it sobering that one reason that a lot of those people could not evacuate was travel expense, ie, high gas prices...... this whole thing is a sobering reminder to me that what represents mere inconveniences like high gas prices and the like can really translate into life and death for some (significant) portions of the population......
i love to see the citizens are mobilising fantastically, you cant go into a store here without being able to add $ to your purchase to donate (which i did today) and little kids bringing rolls of pennies & everyone is doing fundraising efforts. the people are responding fantastically.... the govt..... you know i wasnt going to criticise the govt but then i saw ted koppel just last night talking to the head of FEMA. giving him hell/. really giving him hell, saying, why arent more people there yet. where is the food. where is the water. why are you looking so incompetent. how come nobody had planned for this. really raking him over the coals - ted koppel.
so ---- i gues it isnt just us who are thinking the official reaction might be a little behind. but the citizens, they are coming together fantastically and hopefully the govt will pull it together too. :)
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I agree with everything d's Mom said. I was going to say a lot of it before but wasn't sure how to put it. To know that this many people are that close to the edge-- that close to losing everything and not being able to ever recover. It is really sad. And to know that people died because they couldn't afford to leave.
A friend of mind from the area has been e-mailing about it and evidently the local gov't was really incompetent, too. It's not just the feds. They didn't call for enough school busses to evacuate folks, and made a bunch of similar mistakes along the way-- too slow to react, not taking action enough. Nobody in charge really behaved in a way that could be called heartening.
It just gives the impression that our society/economy could collapse so much more easily than we ever imagined it could. I don't mean to be dramatic, but look how things just utterly collapsed, and because of something absolutely predictable that should have been expected, not surprising. Ok, Sept. 11 was just so out there-- who would expect something exactly like that? I can understand not directly anticipating it. But a storm on the coast where there are always storms, a category 4 storm-- those happen. Why was there a highway built essentially in the water, a major US highway?
Anyway. Sorry. I am in a doomsday mood, I guess.
On the other hand it's true that a lot of citizens are really pitching in. It is amazing to see, heartwarming. Every list I am on has been calling for help.
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Hello all,
It is so terribly shocking. I can only speak for myself, but I really didn't realize the imminent danger of this particular storm. The south has hurricanes and tornadoes all the time, wreaking their annual damage and locals seem to handle it however they do. I'll take my earthquakes any day--no anticipation, just boom. It didn't sink in (again no pun intended) that this was just beyond anything anybody had experienced before.
As in the tsunami, many of the people who would be in charge are probably wiped out themselves as well as the communications tools they would use. I really feel for the mayor. The FEMA guy was on PBS too, getting raked in the mild PBS way. But he understood why people would be frustrated and he was frustrated too. His explanation was that if they rushed in, they would have been victims too. It's just a delicate balance and relief never comes quickly enough. I was astounded that survivors could even be interviewed. I would have been just trying to hold myself together, being hungry, waterlogged, and sleep deprived. And stressed out of my mind.
I didn't mind the looting, except for the guns. It is a war zone there. I really hope order can be restored for the folks closest to the actual disaster affected areas so they can keep their sense of humanity.
Keep praying, MP
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Hi Everyone,
The NOLA disaster is almost beyond belief. None of us have ever seen a total urban infrastructure break down. It is very frightening. Supposedly FEMA and the Department of Homeland Security had done disaster planning for NOLA and had things ready to go. Has anyone heard Mayor Ray Nagin's interview on WWL, which also aired on CNN? He blasted the federal government and Bush, who were horribly slow to respond. To blame the city for not being prepared is incorrect...because of spending cuts, most of our large cities are on the brink of economic disaster. They can barely fund their police and fire departments. There is no way that the mayor or even the governor could have funded the transportation out of there for the population before the event. Even after the event, certain rescue attempts were stopped because of FEMA. Al Gore tried to get the doctors and patients of Charity Hospital out of there, making all kinds of phone calls, arranging for placement in hospitals in Chicago, and chartering two airplanes on his own dime...but was stopped by FEMA because of a regulation....private transport cannot be used in the case of publicly funded patients. :roll: :?:
My husband lived in NOLA for several years in the late 1970's. He was a grain inspector, so he was very familiar with the shipping, the port, and the river. He said that everyone knew even in the 1970's that NOLA was a disaster waiting to happen....and that if disaster did strike, the poor, most of whom are African-American, would be left behind. The local and the state government made proposals and tried to get help to rebuild the levees and the wetlands, but the current adminstration cut the budgets to accomplish these tasks by 80% in one case and 90% in another. Of course, the hurricanes have been intensifying, which is probably a result of global warming.
I am sure this has been a shocking spectacle for many in our nation who have lived with blinders on. It is also a shocking spectacle for the world to see that our wealthy nation takes so little care of our people who happen to be poor....the people who could not leave. I am sure that the world is shocked to see how poor these people really are....it looks like the third world.
The disaster on the Gulf Coast certainly exposes our vulnerability to terrorism, which is not a good thing. Like many people, I am seriously wondering how effective rescue and assistance would be in any urban situation. I am sure all of us, especially those of us in large cities, are wondering what we would do in case of attack or disaster and whether everyone could leave. I live in a big city with a large population that is below poverty level, another huge group of people that live in third world circumstances, surrounded by affluent suburbia. That's our dirty little secret as a nation, the elephant in the living room. I would hate to think of leaving anyone behind that needed and wanted to go. But without rolling back the tax cuts that this administration given to the wealthy, trying to balance the budget, trying to reduce our reliance on oil, and getting rid of the us vs. them mentality... and even perhaps leaving Iraq... people will continue to be left behind in so many ways.
I am so happy that people are giving as much as they can and that the response to the disaster is heartfelt and warm. It affirms my belief that most people are basically good and want to do the right thing, at least in the short term. I am so hoping that people realize that much more than temporary charity will be required to address these problems in the long run. What we have seen over the last few days are not just local problems to NOLA and the other gulf cities; they are problems that have not been dealt with for years throughout the United States.
Yup...the secret is out and the USA doesn't look too good. No amount of PR and spin is going to cover this one up.
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Yup...the secret is out and the USA doesn't look too good. No amount of PR and spin is going to cover this one up.
Amethyst....Excellent post. I believe we all are to blame. And I wish I had a gun for anyone who tries to use this situation for political fodder for the next election. The only answer is to acknowledge the deficiencies and proceed. No blame game is going to really help.
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Having lived through hurricanes and hurricane preps, what is the most interesting to me about this thread is the desire to place blame. Acts of God happen. I dont think the city, state or Feds could have possibly been ready to handle this. THere isnt enough money in the world to prevent any of a number of disasters from hitting anu of a number of US cities. Tomorrow an earthquake could hit Topeka. Yes, NO is under sea level. Do you think that stopped the City of NO from continuing to build, build, build?
Does anyone here work for a city, state or federal government in a related disaster field? If you do I think you would know that you just cant mobilize people over night. Most of the guard have other jobs. Half of our equipment is probably in Iraq. What has really po's me is to make this a black thing. Like somehow people didnt mobilize because the refugess were black. Please!!!!The very same thing happened with Hurricane Andrew in 1992. All the blame placing did nothing towards getting things done sooner. These things take time.
Did someone here say they actually had no problem with the looting? Okay that one has me stymied.
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I have been avidly following the hurricane news and am distraught about the loss of life. These are my thoughts about strategic planning in the US. Please note I'm not interested in 'bashing' politicians but I think it's true.
I find it beyond comprehension that contingency plans for a Cat 5 hurricane hitting a city like NO weren't in place PRIOR to this disaster. A mandatory evacuation was ordered but not enforced, why? The national guard should have been in the city before the hurricane struck to ensure all citizens were evacuated to a place of safety.
Had this happened, NO would still have been devastated but there would be no need for a search and rescue operation, no looters to deal with and the priority of halting the flooding, clearing up and rebuilding the city could have begun immediately.
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To answer the mandatory evacuation notice. Even under a mandatory evacuation it is pretty difficult to physically make people leave their homes. How would this be accomplished? At gunpoint? The other issue is, even if you get them out of their houses, unless you have a way to transport them and a place to take them, it is meaningless.
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I'm seeing an awful lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. And along with that comes the Bush bashing--like he can somehow be held responsible for an act of God. NOLA has been in a precarious situation since long before Bush came into office, but why is he the only one being blamed?
A mandatory evacuation was ordered but not enforced, why?
Because you cannot force adults to make this decision. Should they have been lead out at gunpoint? I can only imagine what the press would have said about that if the disaster had not occurred. If more people had followed the instructions to leave, the help could have been directed more toward getting people into shelters away from NOLA rather than rescuing them off of rooftops.
I also cannot see how anyone could condone the looting. It is one thing to take the necessities of life--food, water, diapers, formula, medicines--but what the hell do you need a flat-screen TV for in the middle of a flood. This has also diverted so much of the personnel who could be helping to make people more comfortable into protecting the city from thugs who don't care who they hurt.
I think it's very sad that we are taking this horrendous situation that no one could have been prepared for and turned it into a political discussion.
Brigid
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Hopefully lessons will be learned from this and if such a disaster recurs, I think evacuation should be 100% mandatory. If people are too poor to move, then bus them out to healthy and hygienic shelters, not a stinking cesspit like the sports stadium. If anybody is stupid enough to REFUSE to leave, then yes, they should be escorted to safety. It is unacceptable that a stricken city is taken over by armed rampaging gangs. How many additional fatalities do you think have occurred because the rescue services could not gain access? Once order is restored, I think this statistic will emerge and people will be horrified.
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OR, I hope and pray that your brother in law and family are safe.
It actually was much worse than looting. A fourteen year old girl was gang raped in the SuperDome and died. A child was also raped and murdered. Tourists and fellow sufferers were preyed upon. I think much of the violence had to do with drugs and gangs. No way is that to be condoned. In the case of someone sniping at rescue workers coming in, robbing, beating, raping others, shooting at helicopters, there is a perfectly justifiable shoot to kill order...and that should be carried out.
I did condone the taking of survival necessities...I would do the same. When there is no help, I don't call that looting. BUT when I saw the people with computers and such, I thought,"What are they thinking??? What good is a computer or TV going to do when there is no electricity? They are looting that stuff because they are the kind of people that grab anything they can. Hopefully, some force and authority will get there before they start in robbing and pillaging from the other victims." There's a huge difference between taking food, liquids, clean clothes, Depends (in one case), sanitary supplies and looting computers.
NOLA has always been a place of high crime. So are all our inner cities. I believe there is always going to be a criminal element in any society, but in places of poverty and deprivation it is worse. However, most of the refugees, despite days of hunger, thirst, and being crowded into the worst possible conditions, came through with their humanity intact. I also saw incredible acts of altruism, such as the woman who was trying to care for her elderly patient in impossible conditions.
NOLA is our biggest port. In addition, there are oil refineries, chemical factories, and grain elevators all up and down the river. Somebody is needed to work in the port, the refineries, and the factories. In addition, there is a shrimping and fishing industry. Should we close the port and shut down the refineries, factories, and grain elevators? Unfortunately, wherever there is industry, there have to be people to work in the industries....and those people have to live somewhere.
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From north of London UK, it feels to me like…..the big rich parent can’t look after itself.
If the US can’t/won’t prepare well; can’t/won’t move fast enough; can’t/won’t protect its weakest and most vulnerable ‘children’…..
…if the richest country in the world has citizens murdering each other after 5 days….then…we’re all alone, we’re all nothing to our governments (parents), we’re all responsible for ourselves, deciding our own actions, and no-one will look after us. And life is very precarious, more so than we might have thought.
Potentially scary stuff.
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Taking this thinking to the next possible conclusion, I presume the UK should have seen the terrorist attacks coming and been prepared to avoid it, because they had been forewarned?
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well.......
they say the quickest way to kill a dinner party is discussing religion or politics.....
we are proving that one true at least...... :?
but people, its not just us. 60 minutes straight out called this 'a disgrace'.
same with ted koppel on nightline. these are respected objective journalists who have covered all kinds of disasters all over the world. local govt in the affected area as well as senators and congressmen are complaining. even pres bush himself, has said that things have gone wrong with this response.
plenty of environmental scientists have been on record saying that this has been foreseen for decades, but was not prepared for at least partly due to budgetary reasons.
lets try to stay objective people. you cant learn from mistakes if you dont acknowlege them.
now i ======really======= dont want to hurt anyone so thats all i want to say. religion + politics = dead dinner party.
peace all.
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I could have sworn there was a Marta post in here.
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I was going to post the same thing d's mom posted. So now I don't have to :)
It isn't really airchair quarterbacking or whoever-bashing or even politics. I mean, it's clear the mayor (democrat) and the feds (mostly republicans) messed up-- see the countless articles on it. Even my local paper, which is very disinterested in anything controversial, especially about the current administration, had a bunch of articles on what went wrong. Paul Krugman has an editorial running today in syndication that really sums a lot of things up. Now, there is no one everyone likes, so maybe you don't like Paul Krugman, so I guess check out the source of your choice. If the New York Times isn't your cup of tea, the Wall Street Journal is saying all of the same things, so it is maybe a good source.
It is too bad that things went so badly; I don't think it's pessimistic to say that they did, though. Somehow I think we've gotten to a place in this country where criticizing anything is considered bad form or not patriotic or something.
But in case this feels like politics to someone, I'll be quiet now! It is a little off topic, I agree :)
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Not presuming to speak for Portia here, but what I got from her post was that if such a thing can happen in a country like America; a country that the world looks up to in many respects, then what hope do we (as humanity) have. That was what I thought she was talking about. I really don't see how that linked to the comment about the London bombings...
Anyway, I did want to extend my prayers and hope to anyone affected by the awful conditions left in the wake of Katrina. I don't have much money, but I am donating what I can to the American Red Cross.
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In an effort to get back to the topics at hand, I will attempt to put it a self actualizing, reflective, "taking responsibility for our own feelings" way.
IMO, criticizing is an easy way to deflect the horror at hand and avoid feeling it in your gut. It places the emotions somewhere "out there" . Criticizing avoids feeling the horror by turning it into anger, which many people are more comfortable with.
Unless you have been in a similar situation, I dont think you really know what it is like, and what the obstacles are.
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As an attempt at humor: "Objective journalism" is an oxymoron in today's "dog eat dog" media world.
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bliz, you seem to be implying that people who disagree with you must not be taking responsibility for their feelings and/or are unable to feel sad feelings without turning them into anger.
a more efficient explanation might just be that they disagree with you, no? given so many folks on all different sides of all different aisles are saying the same thing, you may be right that all of them are just not well-adjusted, or it could just be they have different facts and/or see the facts differently. Making it into a personal failing on our part isn't really fair.
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Bliz are you attacking me for stating my feelings? If so why? I’m likening the US (government) to a bad parent and the rest of us citizens of other countries as children to possibly less competent (rich) parents. I wasn’t saying anything about the UK’s ability to respond to anything. You think I trust my own government? (No I do not.)
Aside: Do you think I am also posting as Marta? Just in case, I want to assure you I’m not: I only post as me. I’ve had problems with being accused (wrongly) of being multiple posters in the past and it’s a sore point with me. Sorry if I read that completely wrongly. It’s easy to misunderstand sometimes, or often, even.
What I’m saying is: this is bloody awful and tragic all round and what’s more, much of it, avoidable. What the hell are people doing being kept ‘safe’ in locations without adequate water, food and security? Yes it was a mess up. I’m angry every time I read anything about it. I’m shouting at the news broadcasts: GET THE PEOPLE OUT.
Christ! The police/feds whoever they are have been busy protecting property from being looted while children and women are being raped and killed. Babies dying. Is a computer or a TV more damn valuable than a human life?
Sorry folks. I’m very angry. I’m angry at the bad parents who let their children die while they protect the interests of insurance companies! I am not angry with anyone on this board (unless you’re making decisions at The Pentagon?).
This isn’t meant to be political in the least. This is meant to be about human rights, human life versus bloody money.
Right. I don’t usually get this angry. But bad things are happening in the richest country in the world and that scares the shit out of me. If it happens in NO, it can happen in my neighbourhood tomorrow. And I’ve always ‘known’ that. I just don’t want to see it happening. Because only criminals have guns in ‘my’ country! Shit!!!!!!! (Okay bad joke but hey, I gotta break that rant-fest eh?)
Sallying Forth: no apathy from me. I haven’t trusted myself to come to the board until today.
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Portia,
I do not agree that stopping the looting has anything to do with money. That equipment would be ruined by the water anyway, so it would all be considered a total loss from an insurance standpoint (I worked in the business for 7 years) anyway. What they are trying to do is restore order so that rescue efforts can take place in a safe environment. When you have bus drivers refusing to enter the city to evacuate people because they are afraid for their lives, that is certainly not going to make a bad situation better. Also, everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that there was 4 feet of water on the roadways, no means of communication and a ton of people who ignored the order to evacuate.
If we want to point fingers, why not at the dumshits who built the city below sea level back in the 1700's.
People need to take some responsibility for themselves. They don't and then it's the governments fault that they aren't being saved fast enough. I have great pity for the sick, disabled and otherwise unable to fend for themselves, but able-bodied individuals should have done what they were asked to do--get to shelter.
I'm sure many things associated with this disaster could have been handled better. I'm guessing this will teach us much about emergency preparedness for the future, just as 911 did. I think energy would be better spent finding solutions than placing blame.
Brigid
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Hi Brigid. Thanks for posting. I think I agree with you. Except for the 'blame' bit. I think, and I don't know all the facts (who ever does?) that somewhere along the line, folks thought they would be safe at the dome etc. The Mayor I guess thought so too. There's been some bad management and crap communications and the result is awful. But it was awful days ago and those in positions of power and authority to make things happen - didn't act fast enough. They knew what was happening (we did and they can see our news!) and have dithered. Positions of power carry responsibility and accountability. But I don't want to blame right now: I want the people out. It's going to be an enormous task afterwards but please, let's not have any more atrocious things happen.
Bliz: I'm not mad at you okay? You want to defend your country and that's okay. I won't defend mine or yours, not those in power when they f*** up.
Take care all.
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People need to take some responsibility for themselves. They don't and then it's the governments fault that they aren't being saved fast enough. I have great pity for the sick, disabled and otherwise unable to fend for themselves, but able-bodied individuals should have done what they were asked to do--get to shelter.
Ok, now I am getting mad. People didn't evaculate because they could not afford to! They did not have the gas money or the car to drive them or anywhere to go. There were not enough busses to take everybody who wanted to go. The mayor and governor did not order enough busses. It is easy to find articles on this if you want to learn about it.
Many of them did not evaculate because they had children or medical issues and could not evacuate. Many *did* evcluate. THOUSANDS! To overcrowded horrible facilities with no food and water for them, and rampant crime. To blame people for this thing that absolutely was not their fault-- that just happened to them-- is really unfair, I think. They expect to be rescued because that's what we pay taxes to the government for-- that's why we have the national guard, FEMA, etc. It isn't because they are lazy or don't want to help themselves-- it is because they are in a disaster and many of them may die. I don't think it's fair to blame the victims. And I have noticed this disaster has inspired more of that kind of argumentation than any disaster I have lived through in my forty-odd years. I am sorry to say this, but I think that this argumentation is more likely because of the race of the victims. I never *once* heard anyone say about the 9-11 victims in the second tower "it is their fault they didn't get out after the first tower was hit" or "why did they expect to be rescued? it was up to them to get out. They should take responsibility."
It isn't even true that people were ordered to evacuate. In New Orleans the messages were very mixed until the last minute. Again, it is easy to read about this and how the time table developed-- no way was there some kind of unambiguous message to the public, and an easy way for them to respond to the message. Why assume it is the victims' fault?
Sorry. I am feeling pretty angry now. I guess I join other angry people on this board :x Maybe I should stop reading this thread.
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Does any of us really know how much of this was "avoidable" in New Orleans? The official "disaster plan" for the city recognized that tens of thousands would be unwilling or unable to leave. The official plan was to put them in the Superdome. This is what happened. There was neither the time nor the resources to do a house-to-house evacuation, forcing people onto buses--which probably would have left them at the Superdome anyway. And in this country, government would have been severely criticized for forcibly separating people from their homes. At worst--and it is pretty bad--the inadequate planning left the main evacuation sites woefully understocked, and I can't for the life of me understand why there wasn't a law enforcement presence assigned to each site.
If the storm had come and gone as it initially seemed to have done, things would have been OK. But it didn't. No one knew that the levees would break to the extent that they did, and I suspect that is how the Superdome and the convention center came to be without adequate supplies. But once that happened, delayed response was inevitable. I didn't really understand how difficult access is until I saw footage of the convoy moving through New Orleans. Those amphibious military vehicles were just barely above water. If those vehicles can't make it, what vehicle could?
In a situation like this, looting is a symptom that larger, and much more dangerous, lawlessness is erupting. I don't believe this is about protecting property, let along the interests of insurance companies. I believe it is about restoring, or enforcing, order in a chaotic situation. The people who are looting the tv's and jewelry and randomly shooting have at least some responsibility here. Food, clothing, toiletries--fine. I don't really blame people for breaking into the local supermarket. I blame them terribly for losing control of themselves to the point where they can't differentiate between survival and common thievery. And I have no interest in making excuses for common thieves. No one's survival depends upon grabbing as much free stuff as their arms can hold.
I must admit that Portia's statement, "I'm angry at the bad parents who let their children die while they protect the interests of insurance companies" makes me quite angry in turn. No amount of discomfort can excuse raping a child. Why is the United States government more responsible for that terrible crime than the rapist? What about being uncomfortable and anxious absolves the rapist of responsibility? When did the government become responsible for basic humanity? Similarly, I disagree with Vunil that the "rampant crime" in the evacuation sites was just "something that happened" and was "absolutely not their fault." If it's absolutely not their fault, then who's committing the rampant crime? I am not blaming the victim, but I am making a disinction between victim and criminal. All the evacuees are victims--of poor planning, of natural disaster, of bureaucratic delay and incompetence--but some of the victims have taken to exploitation and violence, and I cannot explain that away. To do so would be to lump tens of thousands of decent, caring citizens in with a small number of inhuman monsters. And in my book, that's racist. That's saying that we should somehow not hold people responsible for their behavior because of their race, and that's a statement I will never make. But I am not saying Vunil explicity made that statement, I am just saying that the "it's not their fault" mentality can lead that way.
No one expected the levees to give as they did. No one expected the rescue to take as long, or be as complicated, as it is. I think that explains a lot about what happened, but it doesn't make what happened any easier to take. My heart goes out to people who are stranded in incredible discomfort and unsanitary conditions. But I do not excuse any people for behaving like animals, and I do not hold my government responsible for the fact that some of them do.
Everyone here is entitled to his or her opinion. We don't have to agree, and we won't. In adding my voice to the discussion, I am not attempting to shout anyone else down. I respect everyone's right to say what he or she thinks, and I hope they will extend the same respect to me.
daylily
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I've been gone for a few hours and looks like I have missed a lot. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. Also, as you can tell I have no problem stating my opinion. THe whole other poster thing...I dont know what you are talking about there. The Marta thing is there was a post from Marta right after an earlier post today. When I went back it was gone. Can anyone explain that? I am not as familiar with this board as some of you and I presume somebody deleted it...very weird.
Some of the work I have been doing on myself in the past several years, has been about identifying and feeling your feelings when they arise, not digressing into worry, rage, doubt, blame etc. It's a long story, but what I have learned I tried to share in an earlier post on this thread. It was not made as an accusation on anyone else. My point is when some are stuck in rage or outrage, something else is going on internally. Some people who are codependant and yes, narcissists, can very easily get outraged or otherwise emotionally worked up over events that are happening far, far away as a means to avoid dealing with their own feelings and issues.
The other thing I am trying to share is, having been through some disasters from the standpoint of both a innocent bystander and on the helping end, I feel it is extrememly unrealistic and unjustified to sit back and scream at the TV, blame the city, state, federal government for not acting quickly enough. It says to me that some people have no idea what a disaster of this magnitude involves as far as organizing manpower, equipment, supplies, vehicles, routes, staging areas, etc, etc. What else are the various entities going to say, but I am sure we could have done things differently, better. They are taking the high road while some are sitting in their easy chairs placing blame. I will speak up against that and any other attacks on those who are trying to perform and organize rescue.
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hi vunil. please dont feel too upset. :( brigid says that she has empathy for the sick/elderly/disabled/indigent...... the thing that is happenign though is that really most of those people -are- actualy sick/elderly/disabled/indigent...... so, we have empathy for them, we agree on that.
many who died so far were indeed elderly, diabetics, hospital patients, etc etc....... almost every person who stayed that -isnt- elderly or disabled, appears extremely poor.
all --- something i have heard and that i think, is that this is exposing some possible cultural 'seams' that maybe were just not apparent before..... levels of poverty.... attitudes towards poverty..... & so on.
you know, 'how we treat the least of us'. there is still lots of time to rise to the occasion. we were a little 'deer in the headlights' at first but hopefully we will pull it together if only becuase of how bad it looks to the world................. i do know, i was definitely frightened. im disabled. my town is poor. you know.
as for crime...... that is what happens when people feel disenfranchised and out of control unfortunately...... there will never be excuse for it but there are criminals everywhere, hurricane or not.
its not worth feeling upset over. we all agree that sick/elderly/indigent/children have every right to expect the govt to help....(i think).
oops bliz your post just came in - im glad you dont care if people disagree. i didnt think you did. :} i must say, i think that the criticism we're seeing is not as you characterise of misplacing emotions or blame, though that does happen..... nobody was doing this after the 9/11 disaster and that was certainly at least as horrifying and im sure people had even more right to feel 'angry' about that than this. the public response was totally different in both cases and i think has reflected the reality of what was happening and was being reported through the eyes of the survivors. if this reaction were due to misplaced emotion, it would have probably happened in both circumstances, but it didnt that i could tell.
ok - thats it for now.
dm
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If anyone's interested: I can't find much from legitimate news outlets about the reported violence in the Superdome and convention center. We will, of course, never know exactly what happened.
I did find this, which is from the Reuters AlertNews service.
"We found a young girl raped and killed in the bathroom," one National Guard soldier told Reuters. "Then the crowd got the man and they beat him to death."
I'm not sure which is worse.
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If the man had not raped and murdered the young girl, the crowd would not have beaten him to death. At the time this happened, there was no law enforcement in the dome. The citizens took the law into their hands, probably for several reasons: to stop him from committing more rapes and murders, to avenge the girl's murder and rape, and to have him serve as an object lesson for those that might be considering raping and killing other women and girls. Apparently it was effective, for the most part. The crowd did not then go on to more random beating deaths. I just hope they got the right guy and that it was not a case of mistaken identity.
Perhaps they could have put the man into citizen's arrest and waited for the authorities to show up. However, I think that by the time this happened, even the most optimistic people there had ceased to believe that the authorities were going to show up any time soon. Secondly, babysitting a violent rapist/murderer for an unknown period of time and fighting off the other angry citizens would require more energy than probably anyone had. Hunger and dehydration tend to make people weak very quickly. Third, who would want to lose their own life defending someone who was a murderer?
The third possibility would be to completely ignore it and let the rapist/murderer continue to do his thing. Not an option.
While the solution to the problem was not ideal, and the whole story is very sad, I think that under the circumstances, their options were limited. When I read that story, I thought about what I would have done. I'd like to think that I'd at least have attempted the citizen's arrest. However, if I were overwhelmed by an angry bunch of folks wanting option 1, I would not put my life on the line for someone who had already murdered and raped a person.
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WHere were this poor child's parents?
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amethyst :
OR, I hope and pray that your brother in law and family are safe.
Thank you for your prayers, we have word my BIL is fine. They stayed in their home, the neighborhood is fine.
No water, we don't know much more. My SIL works for the hospital and that hospital is still there. She left to help her parents in Baton Rouge and my BIL is watching the home.
Motia
OR, that must be very scary for you, your husband, and his family. Any news? Did he make it out safely? Please keep us posted.
My BIL here in Dallas also works in the hospitals and helps run the local drug rehab. He said there are people form NOL needing the meds they offer. He said a woman was upset and lost in the area. She had her dogs in a hotel and didn't know how to get back to them. My BIL had her follow him to show her how to get back to the hotel.
Another story told to my BIL a woman and her daugher 20yrs old had been rescued from their roof top. Mother had at one time been in prision, they removed them from the roof top and wanted to send them to a shelter, the mom left walking refused help when she learned the shelter was a local jail. The daugher has not seen her since.
I find myself locking the doors where before I would not have worried. It appears there may be the criminal element and mental patients left to run the streets. If the shelter was a jail at one time where did the prisoners go? I think the prison was abandond from a long time ago but I could be wrong.
There was a woman on tv whos mother was dying, she was crying because they told her she would have to place her mother's body when she died on the stack of boidies behind the statium. She had been over 3 days without medicine and already looked dead. Bodies are floating every where along with the snakes.
My neice and daughter both have kids being transfered to their schools. My neice goes to a priviate school for the wealthy, she said grants are being given for the kids to go to school there.
My BIL and SIL staying in NOL have the hospital that will keep them busy. The repair trucks are working on the
power to the area. The levy near them did not break, the news is saying those levies needed work along time ago but the funds were not there to repair them.
This is going to be a slow painful process to get life back in order for all. I think so many things will come out about why the help took so long. A truck driver on the news said his boss held him back 24hrs from driving in to the area. That he was just sitting waiting until he had orders to move. He was in a big semi truck and did not look like national guard.
Will keep in touch ................OR
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WHere were this poor child's parents?
Bliz, They may have been separated during the flood...or dead... So many do not know where their families are.
For awhile, when they first started evacuating the dome, the National Guard put men in one line and women and kids in the other. They were separating mothers and sons, husbands and wives, dads and daughters. Horrible. Apparently, there was a lot of rebellion, people saying they weren't going without eachother, so they stopped doing it.
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Hey everyone,
This thread is getting longer very quickly and I only read the last two pages to catch up and gather that emotions are running high. I am very concerned for the victims etc. Words fail.
However, I was really heartened to be able to watch today's press conference with the Head of Homeland Security who was being grilled by lots of press people. A couple of reporters wanted FEMA's Michael Brown's head on a platter and the HSS guy defended him pretty well and gave sound reasons for why things happened the way they did.
1. Mother Nature is a powerful opponent--Not one but TWO MAJOR castastrophes happened simultaneously in New Orleans. This could not have been predicted.
2. Our country's constitution prevents feds from coming in until called, there is a whole chain of command, legal stuff that prevents them from just pouncing on any city in the US. If you know your US History, you know that the same folks who are calling for fed heads are the same ones who would tell them to buzz off if a riot had broken out. Check the Civil Rights chapter in your textbook. This is why it is so amazing that US can send troops anywhere in the world and our help is accepted (after a call is made) and why ironically, they can't send them instantly within domestic US.
3. Blaming people & organizations & hindsight analysis will go on forever, but right now they are all focused on moving ahead, looking ahead. There is a huge job in front of all of us.
I'm not really doing this press conference justice, but it was very good to listen to the exchange. Still, I do wonder about how poor people were suppose to evacuate or if they even knew...
For those of you outside the US, the culture in the South moves much slower than elsewhere in the country. Through a loosely connected grapevine of friends, I learned that on Saturday a (not poor) Southerner said, ok we'll evacuate but we have time, we'll leave tomorrow a.m., and non-Southern hubby replied we're getting the H*ll out of here NOW. It made the difference. The storm picked up speed and power on Saturday and many people had not moved fast enough. Really, this isn't to blame victims who didn't get out. No one knew what they were up against when Mother Nature sent us this one.
This is my understanding from where I sit way far away.
PBS had a great panel about the political fallout and for sure poverty is going to be discussed quite a bit in the upcoming elections. In psychological terms, I think the storm exposed the US skeletons in the closet, our shadow. The homelessness and poverty has always been ignored. Ruthless Bobby Kennedy didn't become "St. Bobby" until he lost a brother through murder and he visited the South. He had never seen such squalor and truly didn't know people were living like that. It truly affected him. It was only then that he knew what loss was. (And poverty isn't limited to the South, just to CYA here.)
I truly believe homeless people are angels and try to give whenever I can. I tell my children that they are not to talk to them (to protect themselves from the violent ones) but to pray for them and teach them not to react negatively to them or make fun of them. I haven't shared this with anyone (because it is rather new agey) but I wonder if poor people aren't spirits who have earned the harder journey to teach the rest of us the harder lessons. I don't know if that make sense. Apologies if I sound preachy.
With no communication system in place early on, I'm sure there will be many misunderstandings, many misperceptions about what was going on where and why. I'm going to hold my fire and try to focus my energy on charity. I just can't believe this. I'm praying for the Gulf Coast people in every way I can.
MP
PS There is a movie scene (sorry if this seems flip or inappropriate but the message is in there) in Apollo 13 where two of the three astronauts are going at each other with insinuations of blame and defensiveness, and Tom Hanks says words like "Hey! We're not doing this! We're not going to think about how we got here, we're going to think about how we're going to get home." I guess that's where I am at for right now. Plenty of time for blame later.
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I'm with Vunil. I heard some survivors saying that they were told to evacuate, but they had no transportation. They also said that once they were away from home, how would they survive? They had not heard about any convention center. This family had $80 in cash and said they did not think they would be able to survive for long away from home. Should the able-bodied members of the family walk off and leave the others?
These people are living in a different world from most of us and we do not have a frame of reference, nor are we comfortable with them. For example, if you saw some obviously very poor people wandering around in your neighborhood, would you a) invite them in b) call the police c) confront them d) do nothing ?
But if we are able to blame the victims to some extent, it keeps us from having to look at anything or anywhere else to make some changes. With this level of denial we'll have a next disaster somewhere which would be equally preventable. But it's not us, or people who look like us, so it's ok. THEY need to make the changes, THEY need to evacuate, do what they're told, avoid causing a problem. Right? See you next disaster, because nothing will have changed.
a disgusted
Plucky
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Mother Nature is a powerful opponent--Not one but TWO MAJOR castastrophes happened simultaneously in New Orleans. This could not have been predicted.
I've removed the poster's name from this quote because my post addresses the Talking Fed who said it, not the person who posted it. The Fed is supposed to know better. We are supposed to be able to believe these people when they tell us such things.
Unfortunately, this federally employed gentleman is talking through his hat. Actually, it could have been predicted, and in fact it was. In 2001. The article, which came out in Scientific American, is titled "Drowning New Orleans". The author is Mark Fischetti. I don't have a URL for it, only a scan, and that is too large to post here. I suspect it can be easily Googled, though. Climatologists have been predicting this and modeling it and trying to get people to pay attention to it for quite a while.
Interestingly, FEMA's funds were cut, as were funds for the maintenance of the levees and programs for wetlands preservation, after this was published; and a high level manager - I believe it was in the Army Corps of Engineers - was forced out of his job for objecting to those very funding cuts. This was between 2001 and the present, with the most recent and savage cuts coming during this year.
Richard Feynman put it extremely well. "...reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." That is from his report on the Challenger explosion.... which happened on January 25, 1986. Looks like she still can't be, nineteen years later.
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If we want to point fingers, why not at the dumshits who built the city below sea level back in the 1700's.
Again, I'm addressing the idea here, not the poster.
Remember the dumshits who built the Netherlands below sea level in the 1400's? Last I heard, the country was still there, 600 years later. They are aggressively maintaining and protecting their dike system... after a brush with this type of disaster themselves, several years ago. Unusually heavy rains, river flooding, and a dike breach.
So I have a slightly different recommendation: that we try learning something from people who have made this kind of thing work for, say, six centuries. Of course, since we aren't willing to listen to our own scientists, how likely is it that we'd be willing to learn anything from some other country's?
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Don't know if anyone watched Meet the Press this a.m., but they had the Scientific American guy Stormy mentions, and a couple of other folks on there who have been working diligently for years to get the water systems fixed in NO. Other cities, like New York, are just as vulnerable (sitting in the middle of water) to all kinds of problems but maintain things better and haven't had the issue. He even said he knew how much it would take to fix the problem and it is the same as about 2 days in Iraq. (oh, now I think he may have said two weeks-- I have no sense of these kinds of huge numbers). Anyway, his model of what might happen is exactly what did happen, and it sounded as if all of the scientists thinking about this agreed.
It feels better to think it was unpreventable, but alas I am not sure that's true.
The show was really heartbreaking this a.m.-- this big burly guy crying because a friend of his lost his grandmother Friday night to drowning. She was in a nursing home, stuck there. Every day he called and told her people were coming for her. She was terrified. But no one came and she drowned. Friday night!
It is really so horrific. But it is also heartening how much ordinary citizens are trying to do. My community has really mobilized to try to help-- we are taking in a lot of refugees starting last night. People do seem to get the impact of this and want to help.
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I think it’s okay to express strong emotions and sometimes absolutely necessary. This is a shocking time and we’re probably going through the generally accepted reactions: (how does it go?) –
shock, anger, denial, acceptance, sadness -? can’t remember exactly.
But right now can I just say: THANK GOODNESS. The airlift is happening and thank goodness someone moved their ass and made it happen. Someone had clear thinking and said “just do it” and I’m relieved. This is the start of the recovery and it’s going to be hell for a long time (practicalities, politics, recriminations etc etc) but most all: what should have been done is being done and I’m glad that for most, the worst part of the nightmare (I truly hope) will be over.
Vunil: Sorry. I am feeling pretty angry now
Stating what you believe in is important imo when you’ve been raised to do the opposite. Having a clear, helpful voice is the objective? Joining emotion with thinking is hard work for me.
Daylily: Why is the United States government more responsible for that terrible crime than the rapist?
I’d say those who rape are responsible for their actions. The Govt is responsible for allowing the situation to get to the point where civilisation starts to break down. They should have acted sooner. Under extreme conditions, many people become capable of actions that they would otherwise not take. I would kill my neighbours if they threatened my children’s lives (if I had any); ordinarily I would not think of killing of my neighbours. In the situation in the Dome, some people, most likely abused adults, will have become clinically insane because of their environment. Those abused as kids will have abused others, acting out their incredible fear in the only way they know. That does not excuse their actions. An explanation is not an excuse. The Govt is responsible for keeping civilised society going: civilised society broke down.
Kaz: I know what you mean Portia, it's a frightening scenario.
Yes, and not because it’s in the US necessarily, but because it could happen anywhere. Because we outside the US tend to superficially believe (all) the US is rich, if it can happen there….we are more afraid for ourselves. Maybe we are more afraid of what we, as social animals, could become, given the same circumstances? I know I’d have gone partially nuts.
Bliz: The Marta thing is there was a post from Marta right after an earlier post today. When I went back it was gone. Can anyone explain that? I am not as familiar with this board as some of you and I presume somebody deleted it...very weird.
Bliz, you can delete any of your own posts after the event. Just log in and look for the ‘delete’ button at the top-right of the post. Sorry I misinterpreted the Marta post thing.
OR: thank you especially for your posts and my thoughts sent to you.
Anyone who can take (and wants to take) gory stuff, here’s a BBC link. Are people going to get the kind of deep trauma counselling they’ll need? I wish I was qualified. All this has to be talked about, a lot. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4213214.stm
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Hello all,
I have to say I am learning a lot from this thread and all opinions expressed. I have lots of questions and wish I had answers.
They are not angels, they are people. Just like you and me.
There but for the grace of God go I..... That's what you should be teaching your children.
Kaz, I think you and I have a mutual goal of minimizing the stigmatization of the homeless. I use your message as well with my kids and do not tell them my angels concept. It is something I carry in my heart to remember the grace of God. But thanks for the, er, coaching..........? :? Can you give me a little credit for not calling them worthless lazy deadbeats who deserve what they get? In any event, I'll save my further thoughts on this for a future discussion.
Stormchild, thank you for your diplomacy. Much appreciated. As i hear more information like what you posted about NO and Netherlands, etc., I realize how far I have to go to comprehending this whole thing. I guess what I am trying to say is I've got to withhold judgment until I learn more facts. I confess my ignorance here, but that is not for lack of interest or concern.
I'm going to refrain from posting further on this thread but please know I'm not ignoring it, I just want to read it and learn more from it. Thanks. MP
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I heard that the jails had been opened and the prisoners let out. The jails are underwater, so no new prisoners can be locked up. I think it is criminal to lump in the mostly innocent people trying to survive with a few who take the opportunity to steal, rape and kill. It is another instance of the small minority being used to tar the majority with a convenient label which relieves us of responsibility.
Instead of the people being protected from the criminals, they are being lumped in with the criminals and subjected to the 'shoot to kill' rule.
This is an opportunity to learn something and change things. Or, it is another occasion to find an easy, self-serving explanation and retreat back into iour confortable lives, where things will not require us to change our attitudes and actions, and our privilege remains intact.
A not through yet
Plucky
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I am happy to see that our journalists are doing their job instead of spin. If MSM starts to spin, I don't think the blogs are going to let them. I read both the blogs and the MSM.
We have known about the probability of NOLA becoming a bowl of toxic soup for years, as a previous poster pointed out.
The administration is lying to us. Even Bush, liar in chief, has said this could not have been forseen. Bush has also hired total incompetents, government hacks, and fires anyone who disagrees with him. Chertoff has no emergency managmemt experience. Brown ran a Thoroughbred Horse Association for 11 years and was fired from that. WTF??? So after five years of Bush, we have the best government you can expect under the administration of a narcissist (and probably a psychopath) who has set up the government to line his and his cronys' pockets.
Guess who automatically has the job of cleaning up the area? It's Halliburton. Last time I checked, Halliburton is not a federal agency. They are using a private company as an arm of FEMA. More profits for Bush cronies.
I read an article today that explained why many people who did have cars couldn't leave. Many would have had to leave family members behind because not everyone could fit in the car. Most live paycheck to paycheck and did not have enough money to provide extra gas or shelter for their families. And many had no cars. Anyone who blames these people for staying has to be living with blinders on.
I am sorry, but we are going to have to talk about class and race in our society. The secret is out. The social fabric has been torn and it is screamingly obvious that we do not take care of those in our society who need care when they need care. Instead, we indulge those that have more than they know what to do with. The fact is that most of the poor in NOLA were working, contributing, tax paying citizens who were left to die like animals. The point that I am trying to make is that the poor of NOLA are not the dregs of society, but the administration acted as if they didn't matter. If we don't talk about it, we are playing right back into the administration's hands.
I saw no hesitation after 9/11. The families of those that died received millions. Were they any more deserving than the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing? Were they any more deserving than the people of NOLA? Do you think any of the individual NOLA survivors will receive millions? Does the rapid response in NYC have something to do with class? Does it also have something to do with political fodder? The reason the response was slow in NOLA (Bush talking about Social Security and playing the guitar, Condi seeing a play, playing tennis and shoe shopping, Cheney invisible as usual) is because the people in charge do not give a rat's ass about people who are not likely to vote for them.
Blaming local officials isn't going to work.. Do you know how seriously our cities are underfunded? In NOLA, the full police force is 1700 men and women, which is ridiculous. That is less than 600 officers per shift, even if everyone worked 7 days a week. Because of tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations, fire departments, police, libraries and school funding has been sliced to the bone. The states are also underfunded and are picking up the slack from all the federal tax breaks. Neither the governor of LA or Ray Nagin, the mayor, had the funds or the authority to commandeer buses and planes to get those people out of there. They did the best they could with the little that they had. With competent federal authority, food and water and rescue would have been available within a day. Nagin and the state government trusted that federal aid would come through swiftly. They were promised help time and again for three days only to see help not materialize. Then it became spin about rioters, crimes and looting. Of course, if we had not been involved in Iraq the troops could have gotten there sooner. FEMA wouldn't go in because of security issues and did not let the Red Cross in either....no heroism....just a bunch of self-serving cowards.
As I said yesterday, this massive tragedy is showing terrorists how absolutely unprepared we are for attack. The previous tax cuts and the war in Iraq are draining us. By the way, Saddam Hussain was a creature of US foreign policy because of the overthrow of the Shah of Iran. But how quickly people forget history.
Anyone that wants to remain in denial about all this is welcome to do so, but don't bash me for talking about it. If a government is all about greed and does not take care of its citizenry (which is what we pay taxes for), what kind of government is it?
An angry, disgusted, but clearheaded,
Amethyst
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This is the web site for the New Orleans Times-Picayune. They remained in the city until their building was flooded to the second story, and then fled. They have just begun publishing on paper again, I think today, but they have kept the Web site going through everything. I haven't read them before this event, so I don't have any history on their editorial stance, but I imagine that is a side issue - for them and everyone depending on them - just now. They should be a fairly authoritative source of info on events in the city.
http://www.nola.com/
Added on edit: and they have been publishing for more than 150 years... that makes me want to cry... again...
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This is the web site for the New Orleans Times-Picayune. They remained in the city until their building was flooded to the second story, and then fled. They have just begun publishing on paper again, I think today, but they have kept the Web site going through everything. I haven't read them before this event, so I don't have any history on their editorial stance, but I imagine that is a side issue - for them and everyone depending on them - just now. They should be a fairly authoritative source of info on events in the city.
http://www.nola.com/
Hi Stormchild, I have been reading them and they are telling it like it is. Another great source of information, without spin, is WWL, a CBS affiliate.
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Stomchild
Thanks for that NO web site. my BIL and SIL last we knew were at home with no water.
I found this note on the NO web site regarding the town he lives in Jefferson.
Im going to forward this to my BIL here in Dallas so he is aware this site is available. Thanks.
fox news that people from jefferson parish are being allowed in tomorrow to retrieve items and pets but then they have to leave
OR
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Here is the link to WWL's missing and looking forum.
http://www.wwltv.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=16&sid=28245b14c7727df3df4bd2e188d4f473
Here is also the link to WWL news and you can get streaming video. Excellent coverage. Very fair.
http://www.wwltv.com/
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Thank you for the links Stormchild and Amethyst. Much appreciated.
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I have since realized my whole purpose in posting this topic was the voicelessness of those in the hurricane striken states and identifying with that in a very huge way.
I've been dealing with those feelings for about 6 days and have not posted on this board since I wrote this topic. I haven't even been online to read anything. I still haven't really read anything. Still dealing with my own voicelessness and that is more than enough. :(
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Hi, Sally (is this a good nickname for you? Don't want to assume.)--
What are you feeling voiceless about? I think we are done with our donneybrook now and can have more personal conversations about each others' feelings. It is your thread, after all. And you haven't gotten to really express yourself at all.
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PS In my community there are hours and hours of work to be done to deal with the hurricane-- we have new residents (trying to find a new word besides "refugee" which many of the new residents were saying on television they hate as a term for them) by the thousands and there is so much to be done. People have been incredibly generous with their stuff and their time. If I could I would love to go help personally-- it is almost a physical need. I can and have given money and sent stuff, but it isn't as satisfying. I know this is specific to areas near Louisiana, but it is true that the physical act of doing something helps so much at a time like this. And unlike after 9-11, which was so frustrating because there was not as much to physically do, there is at least a year of hard work ahead with this one.
It was fun that moment I sent stuff to the food bank, I have to say. Maybe for those of us raised on lies and weird words that made no sense and pretend nurturing that was never followed through-- just the sheer force of actual truthful action is therapeutic, almost the best kind of voice to have.
Not sure what my point is. I need to go back to sleep :)
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Vunil
Does the word "evacuee" work here v. "refugee" or the standby "survivor"?
Sallying Forth,
I think the response to your thread demonstrates a lack of apathy.... :|
MP
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This is the web site for the New Orleans Times-Picayune. They remained in the city until their building was flooded to the second story, and then fled. They have just begun publishing on paper again, I think today, but they have kept the Web site going through everything. I haven't read them before this event, so I don't have any history on their editorial stance, but I imagine that is a side issue - for them and everyone depending on them - just now. They should be a fairly authoritative source of info on events in the city.
http://www.nola.com/
Added on edit: and they have been publishing for more than 150 years... that makes me want to cry... again...
(((Stormchild))) We found out last night that the delta area is a major flyway for migrating birds. The fear is that birds may eat fish or vegetation that is so toxic that they will die...or that they will land in Lake Ponchartrain, which will be polluted for years, and be killed because of the toxins that are being pumped back in to the lake. Lake Ponchartrain wasn't in such great condition to begin with, but the pumping will probably completely deoxygenate it. Then I saw some people that did not want to be evacuated because they have to leave their pets behind and who can blame them? Pets are family. Most pets are being left behind and the authorities are having to kill some of them. There is an animal pet rescue organization that is doing as much as it can, but it is way overextended. Some towns, such as Chalmette, which was a refinery town, will have to be completely razed because of benzines and other cancer causing toxins. That area may be forever uninhabitable. The fishing and shrimping industries may be unsafe both in the short term and the long haul because of the pollution. :cry:
The losses are just unimaginable and keep compounding. I have been leaking tears all week, but last night I really sobbed. In the meantime, I wrote my letters and gave food to a food bank. We now have evacuation centers in our town and people are trying to find homes and apartments for the families that are here. I wish I could do more, much more. I am sure we all do.
"Ask not for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."
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We found out last night that the delta area is a major flyway for migrating birds. The fear is that birds may eat fish or vegetation that is so toxic that they will die...or that they will land in Lake Ponchartrain, which will be polluted for years, and be killed because of the toxins that are being pumped back in to the lake. Lake Ponchartrain wasn't in such great condition to begin with, but the pumping will probably completely deoxygenate it. Then I saw some people that did not want to be evacuated because they have to leave their pets behind and who can blame them? Pets are family. Most pets are being left behind and the authorities are having to kill some of them. There is an animal pet rescue organization that is doing as much as it can, but it is way overextended.
there are evacuees - all the way here in oregon now. this was a very frightening situation. i really truly lost it over the pets. i lost it over the old people dying on the bridges, i -really- lost it over the children raped in the bathroom. i really -really- lost it seeing people forced to leave their dogs and animals just sitting in the ruins.
this is -not- human. this is not what happens to human people. this is really really -really- emotionally devastating.
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We found out last night that the delta area is a major flyway for migrating birds. The fear is that birds may eat fish or vegetation that is so toxic that they will die...or that they will land in Lake Ponchartrain, which will be polluted for years, and be killed because of the toxins that are being pumped back in to the lake. Lake Ponchartrain wasn't in such great condition to begin with, but the pumping will probably completely deoxygenate it. Then I saw some people that did not want to be evacuated because they have to leave their pets behind and who can blame them? Pets are family. Most pets are being left behind and the authorities are having to kill some of them. There is an animal pet rescue organization that is doing as much as it can, but it is way overextended.
there are evacuees - all the way here in oregon now. this was a very frightening situation. i really truly lost it over the pets. i lost it over the old people dying on the bridges, i -really- lost it over the children raped in the bathroom. i really -really- lost it seeing people forced to leave their dogs and animals just sitting in the ruins.
this is -not- human. this is not what happens to human people. this is really really -really- emotionally devastating.
((((d's mom))))
This is not what should ever happen, but it did and it does. It should not be happening in a country that does have the wealth and the resources to prevent this, which we do. Unfortunately, we have squandered so much on less important things. For instance, I think of my daughter's classmate whose parents gave him a Humvee. Why are we even manufacturing vehicles like that for civilian use?
I hurt for the people who had to leave everything, who lost everything, their pets, their homes, their possessions, their lives, their children, their loved ones, their friends, their neighborhoods, their schools, their community. Their humanity has been tested to the breaking point...and yet they thank us. Oh my God.
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Anna, I understand your devastation. I feel it too. I haven't commented here until now. Not sure what to say of use.
Sometimes, I am ashamed to be a Canadian, after what my ancestors did to the First Nations and Inhuit peoples here....tricking them, liquoring them up, ripping them off, killing off the beasts they relied on for food, spreading disease to them by giving them blankets infested with small pox by Jove!!! Then too, I'm ashamed to be white person, after what my ancestors did to the slaves....dragging them to this continent in the first place, lot's of them suffering and dying before even arriving here, treating them like live stock and auctioning them off, working them to the bone, splitting up their families, denying them any human rights..even to read the Bible!!!.....raping them, whipping them, hanging them, tacking them if they escaped, half starving them and degrading them in any possible way, their spirits and their bodies. Or maybe it's just shameful to be a homosapien, after what my ancestors did/still do to their enemies in war (long list of inhumane practices and tortures), or as punishment for crimes (same list, different day), or to those deemed to be witches, or adulterers, or gay people, or disabled, or left handed, for crying out loud! It is shameful to think that I might be related to some one, waaaaaay back, who behaved in such attrocious ways toward other human beings!! :oops: :oops: :oops:
Sometimes humans behave in abhorrent ways. They have certainly done so in the past. They will continue to, I'm afraid, for a long while yet. I can only feel severe emotions for those who suffer and massive shame for those who perpetrate. There is evil in this place...let there be no doubt.
But there is also much good. I mentioned this to a friend.....the media is in love with horror. The more of it it can splash across the front page or the screen...the better....it boils down to selling their stuff. If as much time were devoted to the kindness and the heroism and generosity and the great will to survive that must have occurred throughout this disaster....what would we feel then?
I won't forget those people either. I feel horrible pain for those who have been treated like animals or worse during this disaster and I pray for the souls of those who have caused their suffering....
and.....I thank all good forces, God and all the angels for those who have given, have sacrificed, have risked, have dared the devil to save or help another. Let them be counted too please. And let them give us hope that whereever there is horror there is also joy.
Too preachy I know, to borrow someone's adjective. Thankyou for the loan.
Sela
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In a rare alliance with the insurance companies, I like their labeling of hurricanes, 500 year floods and the like. They are "acts of God". They are not preventable. They occur randomnly as tragedy often does in life. They occurred in prehistoric times and they occur now. It is not the governments fault, or Bush's fault or Jesse Jackson's fault or (fill in the blank's) fault. It is okay to get emotional about it. It is devastating and horrible. I still dont get the blame part, though. Sorry.
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I still dont get the blame part, though.
Maybe blaming is just another habitual reaction or coping technique or something?
Just luck passing the buck. :shock:
Not fair is it?
Sela
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Sela, you are right. Probably is a coping mechanism.
On a different note, I was somewhat disturbed to hear tonight that the mayor of NO and the Govenor of LA are sending conflicting messages about whether NO has to be evacuated. That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
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In a rare alliance with the insurance companies, I like their labeling of hurricanes, 500 year floods and the like. They are "acts of God". They are not preventable. They occur randomnly as tragedy often does in life. They occurred in prehistoric times and they occur now. It is not the governments fault, or Bush's fault or Jesse Jackson's fault or (fill in the blank's) fault. It is okay to get emotional about it. It is devastating and horrible. I still dont get the blame part, though. Sorry.
SIGH - in the interest of communication im going to try and stay as objective as possible during this answer.
it -feels- as though (and i honestly feared this would happen, and honestly held back expression emotions becuase of it) that beucase i express at any point something emotional regarding this, that you are now using this opportunity to advance your theory that anyone who seems to 'blaming' anyone over this, is doing so out of misplaced emotions.
now, i cant say this is what you are doing. but, i -feel- as though it is, and if you are, frankly i find it quite insulting. im fairly sure you will deny it but, c'est la vie. thats your right. but, beucase i dislike feeling like people are telling me what i think or feel, i will explain to you 'the blame part'.
im pretty sure most people here are not going to agree with this. but thats ok. lets test us, and see if i can say it anyway. prepared to be horrified everyone.
you see, it didnt take hurricane katrina for me to despise this government. or for me to know exactly what i think its doing wrong, and exactly what i expect us all to reap from what i consider its extremely persistently bad decisions. to me it was merely a matter of time. so it was a hurricane this time. it could have been anything. bottom line, we are not taking care of our people. i hope the whole world is finally made aware of this and that bush is shamed in front of the world as -i- feel he should have been, for -years- now. as one of the voiceless underclass, -i- just hope this pulls the lid off the box.
for you see, (brace yourself now) i despise the bush government. i despised his fathers government. i despised the reagans government. long before any huricane katrina. why? beucase i personally see them (its totally ok if you disagree now, im pretty sure you will) as selfish, money hungry, short sighted, prejudiced, dysfunctional, warmongering dictators that are failing to take care of its own people with supposedly the greatest acces to resources in the world. <<-gasp-!!!>> i have thought this for the past twenty years, katrina or not.
i see them fighting wars in countries where -i- do not believe we belong. i see them taking money that -i- believe should be spent on domestic and environmental issues and wasting it running up massive govt debt. i see humans in general destroying rainforests...... decimating wetlands and totally destabilising the natural weather patterns on which this planet and all of life depends.
so you see, i do -not- believe this was an 'act of god'. i believe this was an act of carelessness, and possibly retribution, beucase of the way -i- believe we are destabilising the natural resources of this planet through our overuse of fossil fuels and decimation of natural weather patterns, combined with years of degradation of the poor of this society and mismanagement of government funding. its ok if you disagree. im used to it.
you see to me, i see it as all -interconnected-. i see a supreme irony. i see it as supreme irony that we are involved in what i see as a pointless war over oil. i feel that the use of the fossil fuels coming from this oil, contributes to what i believe to be global warming. i see it as supremely ironic that it could easily be this environmental destabilisation that are leading to some of these horrendous storms recently.
further, i see it as a supreme irony that the poor people could not evacuate beucase as -i- see it, there were not enough funds at the local level, due to this ridiculous war, for people to afford the -ridiculously high gas prices- to get out of town, where they are incredibly poor beucase of the lack of jobs and sucky economy further caused by the bush administrations lousy decisions. !!!!!! it didnt take this hurricane for me to think all that. it just made me feel that everything i thought before was 100% accurate.
now, you may not agree with a single thing that i just said. you probably dont, and thats 1000% ok. but putting that aside, taking as an intellectual exercise that -just possibly- some of what i said may in fact have some basis in truth, i dont think a position of 'blame' for the people that -i- define as idiots having brought most of those conditions about is the least bit unreasonable, whether or not i -also- happen to have emotional feelings related to the poor citizens who are paying for it, as poor citizens always must.
to make an analogy: lets say you go out of town and ask me to watch your house. lets say that while you are gone i have a huge party in your garage. i leave all the doors unlocked and all the windows open. i stand by drinking a beer as i watch people loot your house. when you get back you find your house is robbed and everything is destroyed. you ask me what happened. i say... 'hey... act of god, man. couldnt predict it. nuthin' i could do'.
does this illustrate my position accurately?
i am perfectly capable of expression both appropriate emotion, -and- properly assigning 'blame' and expecting those responsible to take responsbility, within the logical reference points of my own world view.
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Well, I dont remember saying anything at all about emotions in this one, so you have stymied me again. I do get, you hate all things Bush. So if it happened under Clinton, he would have gotten a pass or somehow it would have been okay? I am sure there is some national crisis he mishandled. Oh yeah, his own misconduct.
I mean do you think this administration alone is responsible for all the ills in America today including the hurricane damage? Okay starting tomorrow America will completley fortify itself against all future natural disasters of any kind. lWe will subsidize the poor, give them food, educations, whatever they need to survice. OH wait a minute, we already do that. Okay we will just step it up a notch or two. Your taxes are now going to go up about 1000% to pay for this. Are you okay with that? I am not.
You may be surprised to know that I am not a big Bush supporter. However, I think it is short sighted and yes, I will say it this time, a misplaced emotion to rail against the devastation of a natural disaster and make all entities governmental responsible. How about turning that energy to good use? Like doing something to help the victims or change the government. That is what I do and did.
I have been on the other side of the fence. You can sit around and rail against the government and continue to let bad luck happen to you or you can make changes.
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Hi Ya Bliz and D'smom!
Maybe these should go on the Favorite Quotes thread:
"First rule of leadership, Princess. It's all your fault."
Kevin Spacey's Head Thug Grasshopper character in A Bug's Life
"Vote the b*st*rds out!"
my grandfather applied this to all incumbents regardless of party (hah, I almost wrote incompetents, Freudian slip, eh?) saying "they had their chance."
I think at least 95% of the politicians around are a self-serving bunch. Politics wasn't supposed to be a career. One was supposed to have a "day job" back in the old days. I hate partisan politics because it's just so easy to say My team is better than your team.
Perhaps blame isn't the right word unless we are talking about what we've done to the environment. However, if we are talking about the delays in recovery response, I think accountability is what we're after. We need more accountability in government. I'm for focusing on recovery. But complaining is valid. Protesting is valid. That's what got us out of Vietnam finally (eventually) if you want to pick on the Dems' faulty policies. But it's Bush's watch right now, so he gets to hear it, along with the Governor and mayors of wherever.
There is no external enemy here, unlike 9-11. So we can't direct our anger outside. I am horrified, but my outrage hasn't quite caught up yet. It will probably reallly bloom in another couple of days when we hear the body count. But I'm still of the opinion that government failed. The old, the young, the poor property-less people, etc. have NO VOICE in government. If they don't vote, they don't exist. The pre-disaster assumptions for planning didn't work. Period. Things need to change. Because there will be a next time.
MP
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Moi agree with Miss Piggy. I don't think anyone is trying to place blame for the hurricane in particular (although there may be complicated global warming stuff going on there, but let's ignore that possibility). I think d's mom is reacting to that accusation because it makes people who are trying to understand what went wrong in the rescue sound really nutty. (i.e., Blaming someone for a hurricane! Pretty disfunctional. Must be a coping mechanism or something else odd.)
Trying to figure out what went wrong with the rescue has been just so ubiquitous on the news and every board and every conversation I have heard of or had about the hurricane-- could I suggest we drop the argument about whether it is ok to wonder if things could have gone better with the rescue? Since pretty much everyone who is thinking and talking about this disaster (including the mild-mannered USA Today) is mentioning the botched rescue, it seems like a moot point whether the rescue was botched or not. It was.
Now, who is to blame, that will rage on for years probably. I agree we could stay away from that one since we're likely to blame whoever we already don't like that much in the first place. But the general idea that something wasn't great in the rescue? That seems like something that has already been decided. I don't think it means someone is dysfunctional or coping in some weird way or doesn't care about the rescue or doesn't understand about accidents and acts of god.
Just sayin'... Seems like whenever we cycle back onto this "argument" everyone gets mad again when honestly I think that at this point it is clearly not an argument anymore.
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Now there's something else I'm ashamed of:
The fact that in a mere couple hundred years, less really, we humans have managed to just about reck a planet that our ancestors, as nasty as some of them were, were able to preserve for so many, many, many generations.
I agree that there is some interconnection (possibly....because I can't be sure .....don't know the science....but it sure makes sense re weather patterns and stuff) between oil and war and weather and governments and corruption. On the other hand, I better take my own share of the blame.
I heat my home.
I use electrical appliances.
I drive a car.
I use Tide to wash clothing (and fleecy....to fabric soften :oops: :oops:).
I drink water and flush my toilet.
I turn on lights.
I like my pc and my tv and my cd player and my electric piano too.
I put stuff in the garbage (I do recycle and compost religiously....and hope it helps).
I use my share of energy.....for heat, hydro, fuel, water treatment, garbage disposal, road maintenance, city services and lighting, etc.
Oh....and I consume goods which are transported....stuff from far away places like... :oops:..spanish onions...no wait...we grow those here! Well, ya know, stuff (just kidding a bit here....why not eh? :D).
Seriously, I'm just as guilty as the devil himself for polluting the environment because I've become accustomed to and enjoy my comforts as well as anyone and I won't be giving them up any time soon.
here's a guy north of here who built one of those straw bale homes, shaped like an igloo, mostly underground, with his own windmill and .....don't know about the water he uses?? Now there's a guy who's really doing his best to conserve energy. Costs a lotta moola though. 300 grand for the windmill alone!
I'm not insinuating that coping mechanisms are in any way bad. As a matter of fact, I think most of them are extremely good for helping us survive and I really am sorry, Anna, about saying anything that may have made you think I'm judging you, in any way, to be over-emotional or blaming inappropriately. I blame too. It helps to blame, I think. It puts the onus somewhere instead of just letting that onus float around oblivia, like a confused moth. :?
But blame me too, ok, because I've contributed too. I'm still contributing this very minute by typing here and I will continue to use energy.....derived from fossil fuels, much of it, in one way or another, for my selfish comforts, until something, hopefully much less harmful, comes along.
It only seems fair to take my share of the blame. It's the least I can do.
We definately need new sources of energy. This past summer, I took a train west, for over two days and rode a bus for 5 and 1/2 hours north after that.....to find the answer to two questions.....the questions that really matter to me in this regard....
Why aren't we using our own (Canadian) oil and what are the oil companies doing about developing alternative energy sources?
I went to the Oil Sands in Northern Alberta to see what the process is for extracting oil and specifically....to ask those questions.
Guess what? None of the staff could answer. They said they didn't know. :shock:
Big bucks I paid to find out what? :roll: Notta.
But someone on the bus....on the way back south...just another person.....had answers.
He said:
"They (the oil companies) are aware they have about 25 years worth of oil sand left so they are developing alternatives but they won't say what those might be because they want the pick of the market, the most profitable alternative, the first dibs etc".
and
"We sell our oil to the world market and buy it back because the oil companies make more money that way."
Ain't that sweet? Guess how much it costs for a litre of gas in Egypt (if what I heard is correct??)??
4 cents.
Better blame those Egyptians for the increased hurricanes too because my bet is....they don't worry about wasting fossil fuel much. Not at a measley 4 cents.
The corruption extends past the governments, is my best bet.
I guess what I'm saying is that it isn't fair to try to pin the blame on any one entity, person, group or country.
We are all to blame. The onus has a home. It's not a moth from oblivia.
Let's face it, we've done more harm probably, in our own short life times, than anything our nasty ancestors did. :oops: And human suffering hasn't changed all that much either. So really, a fraction of us lucky energy consumers are continuing to ruin the world for even those poor natives who are still sitting around camp fires, somewhere by the rain forrests. Ooops! They're cutting those down, I forgot, for what else....profit.
We elect to use energy, we elect to enjoy comforts and we elect our governments, hoping to continue to enjoy those comforts and....we aren't happy when they are corrupt (as if there is such a thing as a government completely corruption-free.....hahahahahaha....now that is silly!! :D).
The BBC reported this evening an unveiling of corruption in the UN and there is a call for total reform.
Beauty eh? (to quote good ol' Bob and Doug, two Cannucks who had their priorities set on beer and doughnuts, oh ya, and back bacon eh).
Jeepers. I hadn't even thought of the UN being corrupt. How silly of me really. :roll:
There are certainly honest people who have, do, and will fight corruption in governments and for those who are suffering and down trodden and who are doing their best to make changes that will hopefully bring about some sane way of handling the whole mess.
But if you can show me one organization that has not got a stinky sock in the closet, I'll give up back bacon, for good. I mean it!! Never again!! Back bacon begone!!!
:D Sela
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Sallying Forth,
I think the response to your thread demonstrates a lack of apathy.... :|
MP
I wrote this thread to express my identification with the "thrown away" people in NOLA.
I can easily identify with that.
Who are you saying demonstrates a lack of apathy? The response? I am confused.
Interesting MP ... my lack of response to my own thread???
... well I am simply not on the same wavelength as the responders to this thread.
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... well I am simply not on the same wavelength as the responders to this thread.
Could you be more specific?
I THINK what was meant by lack of apathy is the outpouring of caring for the victims by the posters here, and by the citzenry at large.
But I THINK what you are feeling was apathetic was the rescue response toward the victims, which was too slow.
Is this right? And you are not feeling you are on the same wavelength as folks here because there is less emphasis on the victims in the posts than you would like/expect? That last one is a venture because I honestly don't know. Help?
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Now there's something else I'm ashamed of:
The fact that in a mere couple hundred years, less really, we humans have managed to just about reck a planet that our ancestors, as nasty as some of them were, were able to preserve for so many, many, many generations.
I agree that there is some interconnection (possibly....because I can't be sure .....don't know the science....but it sure makes sense re weather patterns and stuff) between oil and war and weather and governments and corruption. On the other hand, I better take my own share of the blame.
..........
Seriously, I'm just as guilty as the devil himself for polluting the environment because I've become accustomed to and enjoy my comforts as well as anyone and I won't be giving them up any time soon.
here's a guy north of here who built one of those straw bale homes, shaped like an igloo, mostly underground, with his own windmill and .....don't know about the water he uses?? Now there's a guy who's really doing his best to conserve energy. Costs a lotta moola though. 300 grand for the windmill alone!
sela:
well i think that people must use what they are given....... you have to use what is around you, in the social infrastructure. you must adapt, and you must use what you can afford, and what is there. i dont blame anyone for doing the best they can.
possibly its easier for me to get further away from what 'usual' americans do beucase we here live in an extremely 'green' town. for instance, the country fair every year is run completely on solar energy..... i mean, -all- of it. they recycle -everything-, even the plates and forks are made out of soy!
this has been called one of the most bicycle friendly towns in the us. almost everyone in the town recycles, most people have personal gardens, (you should see the one next door, the raspberries are incredible) almost everyone composts.... they just had a news show the other night about a guy who just converted his whole lawn to a totally self sufficient garden. he was there on the local news saying we each have to do what we can. this is a greeeen town.
for many many years, i did not even live in a house........ i lived on a platform in the jungle in hawaii, with no electricity and no heated water for almost a year. that was delightful. for years i had no tv .... nor was i paying for -any- utilities. i have never paid for cable, nor have i ever had it in my house. i admit, i have always had a car == mostly becuase for many years i also -lived- in my car. so i figure, well, im paying for a car, but im not paying for anything else. i didnt want to get raped. i like to be able to lock some doors on the highway.
when i was pregnant we lived on a farm..... water from a well; heat from a wood stove; through my pregnancy we showered outside, using water heated with solar energy. we ate all our own vegetables. when my daughter was born i washed her little cloth diapers out by hand and dried them by the woodstove. i loved living there. it was incredibly pleasant.
i try my very best to be very conscious of my impact on the world around me. within that, there is only so much each of us can do. as long as each of us is doing what we can within this infrastructure, which makes living consciously -extremely- difficult, i think that has to be enough. if you know and dont do -anything- at all, then yes, you can take some of the 'blame', though i prefer the word responsibility, should you wish.
I blame too. It helps to blame, I think. It puts the onus somewhere instead of just letting that onus float around oblivia, like a confused moth. :?
well, there is still an implication (kind of floating around, like a confused moth) that there is something incorrect about the whole concept at all............. i dont 'blame' becuase it does anything for me. :} i 'blame' if you want to call it that, (but i really prefer the term responsibility), becuase i wish to see people take responsibility, and i wish to see mistakes corrected. and i think that not calling it as i see it, is a form of enabling and denial. usually i just keep my opinions to myself though beucase they arent very popular and i already know that.
But blame me too, ok, because I've contributed too. I'm still contributing this very minute by typing here and I will continue to use energy.....derived from fossil fuels, much of it, in one way or another, for my selfish comforts, until something, hopefully much less harmful, comes along.
It only seems fair to take my share of the blame.
well, you are right. to the extent that people know and dont act, they share -resonsibility-. anyone who understands the issues as much as they are able, and doesnt do everything -possible- to help, not heroic just -possible-, including speaking up and telling the truth as they see it, then yes they are involved and bear some responsibility. im not saying they should do anything crazy or impossible......... im saying, its just good to be aware and know the truth, even if what you can do may be small. we must function within our infrastructure. (otherwise you get arrested or committed. believe me, i know.)
We definately need new sources of energy. .....
But someone on the bus....on the way back south...just another person.....had answers.
He said:
"They (the oil companies) are aware they have about 25 years worth of oil sand left so they are developing alternatives but they won't say what those might be because they want the pick of the market, the most profitable alternative, the first dibs etc".
.......
Better blame those Egyptians for the increased hurricanes too because my bet is....they don't worry about wasting fossil fuel much. Not at a measley 4 cents.
The corruption extends past the governments, is my best bet.
well you know..... the people who are really 'at fault' down deep are the global corporations that are profiting off of all of this. imo of course. of course im sure its no accident that both reagan and bushes have personal connections to said energy companies. you know. that is the big picture.
I guess what I'm saying is that it isn't fair to try to pin the blame on any one entity, person, group or country.
We are all to blame. The onus has a home. It's not a moth from oblivia.
i never thought it was from oblivia! :} im totally and completely clear on what -i- think is contributing to all this on a deeper level. im not at all unclear. :}
We elect to use energy, we elect to enjoy comforts and we elect our governments, hoping to continue to enjoy those comforts and....we aren't happy when they are corrupt (as if there is such a thing as a government completely corruption-free.....hahahahahaha....now that is silly!! :D)...
we can only work within the infrastructure that exists..... we can only vote for who there is to vote for; we can only do so much. hopefully, we will all do as much as humanly possible, with the knowlege that we have, and the abilities we have. with the knowlege that nothing on this earth is perfect, and we each bear RESPONSIBILITY for the reality around us however big or small.
im not interested in looking in -anyones- closets. to me thats beside the point.
i think we are pandered to. i think we dont even know what could be possible with the resources that we have. i think that those in control, which are largely corporations at this stage imo that i personally believe control -all- the various bushes, are offering us a choice between baloney and spam, and pretty shiny treats to keep us form complaining. they dont want us to know theres plenty of good meat and real good things in the back room and they arent letting us even know about.
how can people choose better, if they dont even know there is something better there?
i think part of being honest is saying what i think and feel, although mostly i know its a minority position, so as i said, i usualy dont go there. but sometimes, people do have to stand up and say what they see. it keeps things from going wrong the next time. that isnt 'blame' which has a connotation of being useless and non productive. that is responsibility that creates productivity and chance for change. i see this as a much bigger issue than just anything that happened with 'the rescue' which has already been roundly critiqued as vunil has said. thats just a small part, i think that will come out in the future debates that its actually all part of a much deeper social and environmental issue, at least i hope that it does. that would be productive and useful.
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... well I am simply not on the same wavelength as the responders to this thread.
Could you be more specific?
I THINK what was meant by lack of apathy is the outpouring of caring for the victims by the posters here, and by the citzenry at large.
But I THINK what you are feeling was apathetic was the rescue response toward the victims, which was too slow.
Is this right? And you are not feeling you are on the same wavelength as folks here because there is less emphasis on the victims in the posts than you would like/expect? That last one is a venture because I honestly don't know. Help?
None of the above. I simply posted this thread because I could identify with being thoroughly discarded and thrown away. That is what happened to me in my childhood and what appeared to be happening to the survivors of Hurricane Katrina.
Then the posts became about something else ... most of which I haven't read.
I am in toxic goo too deep to read anything much right now. I wish it would go away and come again some other day. But it is here to stay UNTIL as the characters in my book say "You deal with it." :) I guess I ought to read my own book more often. <smirk>
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I think d's mom is reacting to that accusation because it makes people who are trying to understand what went wrong in the rescue sound really nutty. (i.e., Blaming someone for a hurricane! Pretty disfunctional. Must be a coping mechanism or something else odd.)
just to be done with this and move on ------ yes that was what i was reacting to. i didnt like the feeling people were ascribing motives to others, or putting words in their mouth re: their individual reaction. it -felt- condescending and dismissive. but, seeing jay letterman last night and all his jokes on it, im reassured its entirely sunk into the popular culture. you cant make jokes about something people dont all secretly know is the case.
so we could call the rescue issues moot for sure...... but it would be great if people could continue to talk about all their varying emotions regarding the whole situation, and everything it brings up in all of us for all these reasons, without being criticised or 'shamed' as stormy would say.
mp- i agree with you re: all of it!
sf - ok back to the original focus of your thread. ==>>
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I've been away for a couple of days - job eating my life and when I've been home I've been pretty much glued to the hurricane coverage - so this may be off key by now, but -
I have a question - and I'm using the words 'you' and 'we' in a purely rhetorical sense in what follows.
It seems to me that most people believe in 'cause and effect'. Things don't just happen at random. You drop a brick and it hits your foot and you break a toe and go to the ER. You reward a drama queen (or king) with attention and coddling when they act out, instead of setting limits, and you get more acting out from the drama queen (or king). You eat a lot and don't exercise, you experience an increase in girth, with the health problems that causes, which can be fatal. You exercise a lot and don't eat, you end up with the health problems that causes - which can also be fatal. And so on.
In other words, actions have consequences.
The thing is, this is just as true of the actions or inactions of powerful people as of less powerful ones. Just as true of the actions or inactions of a group of people as of individuals. And people do act, or fail to act, as a group. And powerful people do exercise power, or fail to exercise it, with shocking inappropriateness.
We seem extraordinarily willing to set aside that simple concept at times like this. As though there was a rule in force that said: we must never think critically in a crisis, instead we must brand any attempt to determine cause and effect as 'witchhunts', 'blaming' etc. In other words: God forbid we should ever, ever, ever actually learn anything from our experiences.
I have seen this happen during large tragedies and small. And I really do think that it is possible to pull together to resolve a catastrophe, while at the same time looking dispassionately for the real origins of that catastrophe, and dealing in a solid and adult manner with those origins in order to prevent a recurrence.
Don't mean to sound snippy - I'm pressed for time and won't be able to log in again until tonight, so I'm a bit terse. And I did want to say this sooner rather than later, because I think it's important.
Peace, all.
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Hi again all:
Anna, I think we agree on a lot more than we disagree on and I respect your opinion and you for speaking out.
well, there is still an implication (kind of floating around, like a confused moth) that there is something incorrect about the whole concept at all............. i dont 'blame' becuase it does anything for me. :} i 'blame' if you want to call it that, (but i really prefer the term responsibility), becuase i wish to see people take responsibility, and i wish to see mistakes corrected. and i think that not calling it as i see it, is a form of enabling and denial.
Two thingys here, though, kind of wanting clarification. One is that I wasn't implying anything and I'm sorry it may have seemed that way. The other is that that is one of the good things about the blaming, placing responsibility, the coping mechanism of assigning fault....I agree.....it helps to end enabling and denial and it might even help good changes to occur. The part I was disagreeing about, mostly, I guess, was this:
i hope the whole world is finally made aware of this and that bush is shamed in front of the world as -i- feel he should have been, for -years- now...
Your resentments toward Bush are your own feelings, which are valid and I don't want to discount those in any way. But I just see it as unfair to put the responsibility for the whole disaster squarely in any one's lap, so I pointed out my responsibility/fault/blame too. Mine may not be equal to Bush's or that of some big greedy oil company big wig, but I will have to take my part of the shame, if it's being doled out.
i -also- happen to have emotional feelings related to the poor citizens who are paying for it, as poor citizens always must.
I think this is a wonderful thing. For you, for me, for SallyF and for all who are experiencing this, as awful as it might feel, as upsetting as it is, as many triggers as the whole situation might snap......if we didn't feel strong emotions when we see people going through such horror, or when we consider contributing factors....we'd be selfish, insensitive, uncaring and numb. Yucky! Just wanted to let you know that that's what I'm trying to communicate, with both feet in my mouth as usual, that my opinion is.....it's ok to feel.....as a matter of fact.....it's what probably also causes good changes to happen. Without all of those strong feelings.....no one would notice the turmoil and nothing would ever get assigned or fixed. That would be truly apathetic.
Sorry to have done my part of hijacking your thread SallyF and thankyou for unlocking it. I can relate to being discarded and I feel for you for this having triggered so much pain for you. On the other hand, I think it's a good thing too because that pain, those feelings of being discarded need to be realized and released and acknowledged. Maybe then that will help to relieve some of the discomfort of the past. So the good thing is that you are aware of those raw feelings and expressing some of that here. Good for you!
For the present, please know that no one here discards you.
((((((((((((((((((((SallyF))))))))))))))))
Sela
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d's mom-- along those lines, check out the onion today (www.theonion.com). Really funny. Interesting how humor is a reflection of the national zeitgeist, more so than many other mediums.
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I had no idea that this thread was supposed to be about one member's personal voicelessness, so I am going to continue to post about Hurricane Katrina and what it has brought to my attention....not speaking for anyone else here.
I do blame the Bush administration for incompetence, not caring before the fact, and for shuffling resources to special interests that could have been used for the greater good. The administration can say they care but the fact is that the admin has repeatedly cut programs for the environment, the poor, education, the cities, housing and health care, mass transit, the states, and new sources of energy in order to give corporate tax breaks and tax breaks for the wealthy. As a recovering dysfunctional person, I need to look at what people do and not what they say. The administration has also used tremendous fear and propaganda to cow people and shut them up...Karl Rove, who obviously learned much from Machievelli and Joseph Goebbles, is an architect of that. I have no illusions about the intent of this administration and without forcing them to take responsibility, nothing will change. Maybe blame is a loaded word, but in this case, without blame, nothing is going to change.
Today, Laura Bush says that she finds that talking about race in this situation as disgusting. "She described as "disgusting" comments by rapper Kanye West and Democratic chairman Howard Dean blaming her husband for the disproportionate numbers of black hurricane victims.
She told an interviewer with American Urban Radio Networks, that Bush "cares about everyone" in the country. She said she knows that because she lives with him."
What she has failed to address is that the administration, including her husband, do have not acted in a caring way about the poor in this country and that African-Americans make up a disproportionate share of the poor. I agree that this should not become an issue solely about race...the issue is poverty vs. untrammelled wealth and power. But the fact remains that most people who are poor are people of color. What needs to happen is that poor people, regardless of hue, need to unite and demand that they be given a fair share from now on.
Then here's Barbara Bush- who also said it was scary that so many of the evacuees want to stay in Texas. "Finally, we have discovered the roots of George W. Bush's "compassionate conservatism."
On the heels of the president's "What, me worry?" response to the death, destruction and dislocation that followed upon Hurricane Katrina comes the news of his mother's Labor Day visit with hurricane evacuees at the Astrodome in Houston.
Commenting on the facilities that have been set up for the evacuees -- cots crammed side-by-side in a huge stadium where the lights never go out and the sound of sobbing children never completely ceases -- former First Lady Barbara Bush concluded that the poor people of New Orleans had lucked out.
"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them," Mrs. Bush told American Public Media's "Marketplace" program, before returning to her multi-million dollar Houston home.
On the tape of the interview, Mrs. Bush chuckles audibly as she observes just how great things are going for families that are separated from loved ones, people who have been forced to abandon their homes and the only community where they have ever lived, and parents who are explaining to children that their pets, their toys and in some cases their friends may be lost forever. Perhaps the former first lady was amusing herself with the notion that evacuees without bread could eat cake.
At the very least, she was expressing a measure of empathy commensurate with that evidenced by her son during his fly-ins for disaster-zone photo opportunities." http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20050906/cm_thenation/120080
Dubya has publicly stated, many times, he is much closer to his mother in his beliefs. Guess the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. Today the White House is saying that Mother Bush's remarks are "personal." WTF does that mean? Of course, they are personal....but her son and company so far have acted as if they share them.
The spin machine is out in force telling us that we are terrible to be criticizing the administration at this time. I don't think people are going to shut up and go away on this. We need to be looking at what we can do to right the terrible injustices in this country. I am not shutting up. Also there is an attempt to blame the local governments, both of which were terribly underfunded. I wouldn't care if Nagin and Blanco were Republican or Dems...the fact is that Lousiana, while absolutely vital to our economy and national security, has been treated like the bottom of the barrel. By the way, Blanco did declare a state of emergency on 8/26. I would say that she was with the program. Ray Nagin saved at least 80,000 lives by evacuating. He did not have the funding or the resources to get everyone out in time. Interestingly, neither Nagin, a former VP at Cox Communications, nor Blanco, a former teacher, are political hacks.
Sadly, I am not surprised by what happened in NOLA. It was foreseen by anyone who had read any of the scientific or just general information articles regarding the delta. How can the admin say they couldn't have foreseen this? They are lying. Bush can't even answer if we are prepared for a terrorist attack or another disaster. Of course, we are not.
In AA, we say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If we shut up, play nice, don't criticize, don't work to fix what's wrong, we can expect the same results. This does need to be addressed right away because if there is another disaster, whether man made or natural, that occurs tomorrow, we can expect the same results. If we treat this as a one time occurence and don't work to address the underlying causes, it will happen again.
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Hello everyone,
Thanks Sallying, for opening this thread back up. :) Thanks to you we all got to talking about Katrina in whatever way we all needed to.
Amethyst: Wow, what a post. Have you considered becoming a columnist of social commentary? You are obviously paying close attention and have well thought out views. Sorry if I missed what your occupation is if you said in another post or I skimmed over it.
A friend of mine who is not american asked me if either race or poverty played a role in contributing to the hardships of the survivors, etc. I feel that it is hard to separate the two, esp. in the deep South. But I lean to the side of poverty. I am heartened to hear commentators (on the calmer news broadcasts) report that Republicans are very upset by how things played out in the early days of the disaster. I am also counting on the fact that many, many reporters were eyewitnesses and earwitnesses to this disaster and they are personally affected by this story. They want accountability as much as we nonjournalists do and they're not going to let the apologists off the hook.
I also believe that any disaster expert would have had their career cooked by this event. I am not apologizing for Michael Brown, far from it. Just saying that how big this disaster was and that's how important the job is. I'm so glad they airlifted him outta there finally. Who is that guy related to that they treat him with kid gloves?
The Barbara Bush comments took my breath away. Talk about narcissism in action! "This isn't so bad after all (redefining reality), in fact it's working out rather well." :shock: Earth to Barbara! The lack of urgency and complacency (i.e. no bad terrorists to blow up, no soldiers--yet--to clap on the back) is stupefying. I guess there was no emblematic moment to embrace for re-election.
My H and I were finally discussing all this tonight (we're on different schedules). We're both sort the same. We take in the news and video images. Ruminate until the emotions catch up. I want to scream at the TV but don't want to scare my kids. Thank goodness for this discussion!
MP
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And now for my Hurricane Katrina response comments ... I thought I might as well add to the topic in the direction it has gone.
I heard something tonight on Dateline which shocked me. Almost a year ago to the date of the hurricane a report was written about the ability of NOLA levee system to withstand a Catagory 3 hurricane. A dry run scenario with FEMA, state and local governments was performed through the use of computers and it was determined by a scientist at LSU that anything above a Catagory 2 hurricane would cause the city to flood through a storm surge. This report took over a year to get to the private sector and was supposed to be published on DVDs (Gee, I sure hope all those living below the poverty level have DVD players! :wink: ) and sent to all residents of NOLA. That was to occur next month. That means the state and local government knew what would happen over 1 year in advance and no emergency evacuation plan was developed. The DVDs information had an evacuation plan - everyone for themselves. :shock: Not appropriate for city like NOLA with a 30% poverty rate. And not appropriate for those who needed transportation to evacuate hospitals, nursing homes and long term care facilities.
The National Hurricane Center reported the hurricane was a Catagory 2 at 5 AM on Saturday morning and would be strengthening more throughout the day. However evacuation wasn't ordered until Sunday morning when the hurricane was considered a powerful Cat 4 and getting stronger.
Mayor Nagin was interviewed in the Dateline show and said everyone - local, state and federal governments - failed to do their job in some way or another. His only failure he said was that he didn't yell loud enough.
The biggest failure was lack of planning in advance knowing full well that the levee system wouldn't be able to handle anything more than a Catagory 2 hurricane. All government authorities - the mayor, the governor and the federal government - knew about this and yet did nothing to plan for the inevitability of a Catagory 3 or higher hurricane. It was everyone for themselves. :x and :(
Watching the whole disaster unfold triggered my feelings about being voiceless. I could see that the lowliest of people were thought of last and least, leaving the evacuation plan to individual citizens, when nearly 30% have the least resources. I've been one of those citizens for a long, long time. I know what it is like to live on a very, very low income where each dime counts. Where planning for a disaster would probably be nearly impossible due to limited resources.
And it angers and saddens me that the least were thought of last or in some instances not at all (all the residents of a nursing home died - expendable).
And it angers me that the media coverage has been completely biased and against the Bush administration when others dropped the ball too. Yet not many stations wanted to report the whole truth - like all the school buses underwater which could have been used for evacuation. In one picture I counted over 300 buses which would have carried 19,800 plus people out of harm's way. Then there were municipal buses and handicapped transportation buses and trains and who knows what else which could have been used to evacuate. But sadly there was no ORGANIZED evacuation plan.
And it angers me that the Red Cross tried to bring food and water to those evacuees at the convention center in NOLA and the governor and LA State Homeland Security Office would not allow them into the city.
And finally it angers and saddens me that the mayor of NOLA said his only failure was he didn't yell loud enough ...
The responsibility for an evacuation plan lies on the shoulders of the local and state governments! And there was plenty of time for a plan to be developed that would serve the greater good.
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im not interested in looking in -anyones- closets. to me thats beside the point.
i think we are pandered to. i think we dont even know what could be possible with the resources that we have. i think that those in control, which are largely corporations at this stage imo that i personally believe control -all- the various bushes, are offering us a choice between baloney and spam, and pretty shiny treats to keep us form complaining. they dont want us to know theres plenty of good meat and real good things in the back room and they arent letting us even know about.
I know for a fact (due to people I met as a child and memories) that government leaders are merely puppets in the global corporations' hands. There is one very interesting web site online where one can type in a name and find how that person or organization or corporation is connected to other people or organizations or corporations. And 99.99% of those people, organizations, and corporations are corrupt.
Many well meaning people get into governmental offices to find they have little or no power because someone else, somewhere else is holding all the cards. Other not-so-well-meaning people go into office because they are the ones holding the cards.
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Anna, I think we agree on a lot more than we disagree on and I respect your opinion and you for speaking out.
hi sela - i think we do too.
i respect your opinion too. we each have a right to ours, no matter how different they may be.
Two thingys here, though, kind of wanting clarification. One is that I wasn't implying anything and I'm sorry it may have seemed that way. The other is that that is one of the good things about the blaming, placing responsibility, the coping mechanism of assigning fault....I agree.....it helps to end enabling and denial and it might even help good changes to occur.
ok - thats fine if you werent implying anything. thats ok.............. i stiiiillll get the implication that just the act of naming 'assigning fault' as a 'coping mechanism' --- pigeonholes it as something that it might not be. see what i mean? just the act of calling it that, subtly assigns it meaning that might not be accurate.
you know - thats why the first thing they do after any plane crash is send out the team and dig out the black box and do a total meticulous reconstruction of the accident until they find the precise and exact cause. thats not any coping mechanism - they are technicians who are deadly and dispassionately seroius about preventing another plane crash.
i can say this, i didnt learn much of use from my parents. but, as emergency room physicians, they provided a pretty good model of useful vs unuseful action in an emergency. i do feel i have a good understanding of the difference between personal emotional reaction to an event, and technical reaction, namely action geared towards rapid, efficient fixing of event, determining rational cause of event, or preventing recurrence of event...... people trained to react to emergencies are very good at drawing that line. so id just like to see us be careful that we arent pigeonholing rational efforts to fix event, as an emotional coping mechanism when they might not be at all. its subtle, but i think it makes a difference. what we name things, makes a difference.
The part I was disagreeing about, mostly, I guess, was this:
i hope the whole world is finally made aware of this and that bush is shamed in front of the world as -i- feel he should have been, for -years- now...
Your resentments toward Bush are your own feelings, which are valid and I don't want to discount those in any way. [/i]
im sure i dont have to tell you, it isnt just me. a whoooooooooooole lot of other people feel the very same way. i emphasized 'i' beucase i was speaking for myself right then...... but you know it isnt just me. and of course, hes definitely only a tiny figurehead for everything going on... no way is he smart enough to figure out how to do half the damage being done in his name........... :lol: but also, its not a republican/democrat thing for me anyway. im not either. i look at what people -do-, not what they say, or whats on their name tag.
But I just see it as unfair to put the responsibility for the whole disaster squarely in any one's lap, so I pointed out my responsibility/fault/blame too. Mine may not be equal to Bush's or that of some big greedy oil company big wig, but I will have to take my part of the shame, if it's being doled out.
i think it is funny that you are so interested in taking blame for this, but if you really want it, i wont stop you... but im not sure why you are. it feels almost codependent. to me that is like we are little kids in a preschool class, and the teacher offers us either peanut butter or cream cheese, and then we blame ourselves becuase we failed to insist on steak. well for one thing it simply wasnt one of the choices on the menu. theres a huge power imbalance between us and 'our leaders'. and they would probably laugh at us if we told them we wanted steak for lunch, and asked us who we think we are.
we can get together and draw our demands in crayon and offer to hold our breath til we turn blue, until they give us steak. and i have a feeling i know how far that would get us. so, i see our part of the 'blame' as the little people, as quite minimal. we really have very little power and influence over what is going on. if you are exercing your influence to the greatest degree you can, which i am assuming as a conscious citizen of the world you are, then im not sure i would assign you all that much blame. if ther were better choices on the menu, you would probably pick them. fact is, they arent there.
those technicians digging out the little black box wil assign blame. burnt wire, pilot error, engine failure, bad weather, fuel problem. whatever it is, there is a cause. there is something to which it will be traced back. you can go on and on with it, like that poem, 'for want of a nail a shoe was lost, for want of a shoe a horse was lost, for want of a horse a soldier was lost, for want of a solider a battle was lost, for want of a battle a kingdom was lost, and all becuase of a horseshoe nail'........ but either way, something went wrong, maybe a number of things, and they -can- be identified, dispassionately and technically and unemotionally. i think being too eager to act as though we have more power than we do, and take more 'blame' then we should, actually strikes me as a form of codependence.
like saying you are at fault for that plane crash becuase you sold the plane mechanic a stale muffin at the coffee shop the week before. maybe if he had more vitamins in his system he would have done a better job and the plane wouldnt have crashed. it gets crazy. how much can you control with a damn stale muffin. you know. at a certain point the buck has to stop.
i -also- happen to have emotional feelings related to the poor citizens who are paying for it, as poor citizens always must.
I think this is a wonderful thing. For you, for me, for SallyF and for all who are experiencing this, as awful as it might feel, as upsetting as it is, as many triggers as the whole situation might snap......if we didn't feel strong emotions when we see people going through such horror, or when we consider contributing factors....we'd be selfish, insensitive, uncaring and numb. Yucky! Just wanted to let you know that that's what I'm trying to communicate, with both feet in my mouth as usual, that my opinion is.....it's ok to feel.....as a matter of fact.....it's what probably also causes good changes to happen. Without all of those strong feelings.....no one would notice the turmoil and nothing would ever get assigned or fixed. That would be truly apathetic.[/i]
yes of course its ok to feel!!! people have to feel, if anything usually people do not feel enough. thats part of the problem. if a person didnt feel id be seriously worried...... its also useful and appropriate though to be technical and dispassionate about dissecting cause and effect. both are valid and i think seperate parts of an appropriate reaction.
Sorry to have done my part of hijacking your thread SallyF and thankyou for unlocking it.
me too! >> im glad you redirected what you really wanted onto a more specific thread. >>
I can relate to being discarded and I feel for you for this having triggered so much pain for you.
me too also sf. i relate precisely to being discarded, maybe not as much as sf does. but its an issue for me as well, always has been. more on the level of trust/betrayal. as in, we trusted you. we put our trust in you to care for us, you did not come for us. thats why the animals being left is very difficult for me. i am giving more money to the efforts to help the animals then to the efforts to help the people right now.
for instance, there are sometimes on tv when they will have footage of elephants that become furious after being abused or mistreated in a circus. i absolutely freak out and become unreasonably hysterical seeng footage like that. becuase i cannot stand the implication, of the intelligent, social creature, forced to live in chains, submissive, and finally just going berserk and usually being shot becuase of it. the desparation, that anything is better than living like this, in chains, forced to submit. it gets me.
last year i absolutely lost it beucase of a stupid tv show where people were living on some land and had a lovely pig that someone had entrusted to them. the pig was about to have babies...... they stupidly allowed the pigs enclosure to catch fire. and basically failed to rescue her, she was badly injured and obviously in so much pain. i could not turn it off in time, and the sounds that she made, calling for help, are just seared onto me. she trusted them. she was in an enclosure that they built. they were supposed to care for her. she called to them for help, and they failed to come. they let her suffer until the neighbor came and shot her. i was so unreasonably hysterical over that, i didnt think i was going to survive. it still is very disconcerting to think about today.
i -still- get shaky whenever i think about that. placing trust in caretakers that fail and abandon is also very much an issue for me. this situation very much brought up images like that on so many levels.
but- i can still be quite dispassionate about rationally dissecting whos responsible (each party and to what degree or in what capacity) and its -not- a repub/democrat thing. im not either.
ps on the last post sf - fascinating....... yes i totally agree. >>>>
this is interesting, thanks
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last year i absolutely lost it beucase of a stupid tv show where people were living on some land and had a lovely pig that someone had entrusted to them. the pig was about to have babies...... they stupidly allowed the pigs enclosure to catch fire. and basically failed to rescue her, she was badly injured and obviously in so much pain. i could not turn it off in time, and the sounds that she made, calling for help, are just seared onto me.
Hmmm ... the sound is so familiar ... like a small child shrieking and crying out for help ...
I heard a similar sound once and I started crying hysterically and shook within. I didn't know why I was so triggered but realized it was the sound I must have made myself while being abused and tortured. :(
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Okay, here is my opinion and let the flaming begin. Is there any personal responsibility of the people living in NO to have their own evacuation plans? Why does government have to be big brother?
I lived in an extremely fragile hurricane envirnonment for years. It was impossible to not know what you needed to do in the event of a hurricane. If you didnt have transportation out, it was your responsibility to find it.
Hello, the fact that NO is a bowl and hurricane prone is obvious. It was obvious where I lived was hurricane prone and would be totally destroyed with a direct hit. I didnt have a car and was living paycheck to paycheck but I still had a plan.
I will not make this about poor people whose government failed them. What happened to making your own good choices? Oh they wre too sick and/or poor. Well then maybe they should have considered living somewhere else as now they all will. It wasnt like the citizens didnt know their city was capable of great peril.
As I have said before, if you really want government to be big brother, which I am sure many of you would rail against if it actually happened, be prepared to pay big bucks out of your personal pockets to make it happen.
Also according to last night dateline it would have taken 20 years to design and build better levees in NO. So unless we started in 1985, there was no quick fix. ALso nice job of Nagin for taking no responsibility..."I should have yelled louder". Yea, maybe he should have initiated a hurricane awarenss program, several years ago.
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Okay, here is my opinion and let the flaming begin. Is there any personal responsibility of the people living in NO to have their own evacuation plans? Why does government have to be big brother?
I lived in an extremely fragile hurricane envirnonment for years. It was impossible to not know what you needed to do in the event of a hurricane. If you didnt have transportation out, it was your responsibility to find it.
Hello, the fact that NO is a bowl and hurricane prone is obvious. It was obvious where I lived was hurricane prone and would be totally destroyed with a direct hit. I didnt have a car and was living paycheck to paycheck but I still had a plan.
I will not make this about poor people whose government failed them. What happened to making your own good choices? Oh they wre too sick and/or poor. Well then maybe they should have considered living somewhere else as now they all will. It wasnt like the citizens didnt know their city was capable of great peril.
As I have said before, if you really want government to be big brother, which I am sure many of you would rail against if it actually happened, be prepared to pay big bucks out of your personal pockets to make it happen.
Also according to last night dateline it would have taken 20 years to design and build better levees in NO. So unless we started in 1985, there was no quick fix. ALso nice job of Nagin for taking no responsibility..."I should have yelled louder". Yea, maybe he should have initiated a hurricane awarenss program, several years ago.
I hear you! That was the other side of the story I could have taken as well.
I think the failure was to withhold the truth from the citizens of NOLA. Nagin failed to tell them that anything more than a Catagory 2 would submerge the city in water. He knew for over 1 year that they needed to get their *sses out of Dodge and pronto with a 3 plus hurricane! Yet he failed to inform his citizens. The city has been sinking another bit of truth which was not told to the citizens. Then the citizens could form their own evacuation plans based on this knowledge. All along the citizens have be strung along believing NOLA could withstand a Cat 3.
However the mayor still has the responsibility for the evacuation of those who can't get out on their own such as those in care facilities or to assist those facilities in their evacuation plans.
The separate states were never supposed to be controlled by the federal government but it appears that is what people would like.
As I have said before, if you really want government to be big brother, which I am sure many of you would rail against if it actually happened, be prepared to pay big bucks out of your personal pockets to make it happen.
Actually it would be more than that. Expect to lose a lot of your rights like we are already doing because of the Homeland Security Acts. I live close enough to the border to see this already happening. Since 9-11 I've seen things change drastically at the custom station in a nearby town. Keyed entrances, seven-foot high chainlink fences, and barbed wire facing INSIDE the fences to keep people in their compound. Air conditioned vans with no windows to transport whomever they decide are "terrorists." Mandatory passports for all US citizens traveling to Canada by 2006. And that is just the beginning for mandatory passports. My driver's license has special information in it which can be used for tracking my whereabouts. Big brother at work!
I think what shocked me the most about all the newscasts were the people screaming for the federal government. "Where's FEMA?" Huh? Where's your mayor? Where's the truth? Where's the information so the citizens can make sound decisions? I didn't hear the people of NOLA screaming about Nagin leaving them in high water.
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I'm not posting on this topic any more, but I do want to say because I just have to: anyone who really has studied what happened and knows the history who dismisses the idea that Michael Brown was incompetent and responsible for a lot of what went wrong is someone who thinks about things completely differently from how I do. And I am not deciding this because I like government intervention or big brother or whatever.
And that's all I'll say about that. People can disagree. But I guess I am on the side of Jon Stewart that letting FEMA off the hook is not very defensible and I just don't feel like having the argument any more because, to me, it seems like willful ignorance to just decide that FEMA did a great job. Against all evidence. Just because FEMA messed up doesn't mean others are to blame-- the mayor has said his mea culpas all over the place.
The second video on this link sort of says it, to me: http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/bldailyshow.htm
I'll be quiet now. I think this is not a good place for fruitful political conversation and I'll go elsewhere for that-- I get lots of other stuff out of this board and need to get myself to drop it! It is absolutely true that we can disagree about this and agree about all sorts of other important stuff.
(yes, I should have dropped it a long time ago, I know. I couldn't, for some reason).
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Also according to last night dateline
bliz, - i think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. since we all obviously saw the exactly same dateline, (and other shows) and got -totally- different things out of it, there just isnt any use on going on, beucase we are just not going to see it similarly.
you can have discussions for different reasons and one is to explore and learn, and one is to prove you are right and the other person's wrong. you can categorise the other person expressing themselves in negative terms like 'railing' or 'misplaced coping' in an effort to quantify and negate their position without actually using facts.
you can create straw man arguments like 'big brother'....... or criticise a bunch of sick, elderly nursing home residents for not 'just moving' as though they could just jump up and do it. thats all your opinion which is valid, but i personally dont think its productive argument.
ALSO - i agree with sf that as in many cases information -was- withheld. i saw on that very same dateline, that you saw, that they were just about to release a preparedness video - but it was just too late. (and, i live below the poverty line, i dont have a dvd player. i couldnt have watched it!) i saw the weather-nerds warning everybody what was about to happen and pretty much being ignored. but, you saw exactly the same show, and saw totally different things. so we will have to agree to disagree.
this is very complex and reaches very very deep into the fabric of society. there really arent any easy answers. but, i wont flame you, beucase there isnt any use to it. i dont need to prove im 'right' and you are 'wrong'. i just know we wont ever agree on this beucase we see it from such different angles.
so...????
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The second video on this link sort of says it, to me: http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/bldailyshow.htm
aagh!!! vunil, my computer cant see any of these pages at all :( :( :( i keep missing all the funny. :( and before, i realised i said jay letterman instead of jay leno. duhhhhh!! >>>>>
oh well. thanks for posting them anyway. hopefully someday i will have a computer that can do stuff.
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I know for a fact (due to people I met as a child and memories) that government leaders are merely puppets in the global corporations' hands. There is one very interesting web site online where one can type in a name and find how that person or organization or corporation is connected to other people or organizations or corporations. And 99.99% of those people, organizations, and corporations are corrupt.
Many well meaning people get into governmental offices to find they have little or no power because someone else, somewhere else is holding all the cards. Other not-so-well-meaning people go into office because they are the ones holding the cards.
before leaving this really for good i did want to tell you that i heard this from a -lot- of those women on the RA list. the things they went through were often deeply intertwined with backroom politics..... some were used as child prostitutes to entrap and blackmail politicians... some were even trained to carry out assassinations. lots claimed to be used in experiments. a large number of them claimed to have personal experience with the underbelly of politics in various ways.
this all -does- sound unbleievable, but talking to them personally, and so many of them, it became impossible for me not to give it credence.
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What is the RA list? I don't know. Please?
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What is the RA list? I don't know. Please?
sorry amethyst ! :}
"ritual abuse." this was a private mailing list. i was also on a public list for people with multiple personality/dissociative issues...... i was on both of them in my quest to understand my own childhood, mostly why i dont remember so much of it..... and to understand the way the mind works and how people can be brainwashed and mind controlled through trauma. the people on the private list had some incredible experiences to relate.
it totally changed my world view, and i was pretty radical before. as unbelievable as a lot of the things i learned were, in a strange way, it also explained a lot of things about society that in a way, had always made sense, but i just hadnt really grasped. most people never ever will.
theres another list im on, a mind control list, that is mostly phd's and scientists and hotshots, who totally dont believe in dissociation or anything like that at all. they dont believe its possible to suppress or recover memories, and they dont believe that recovered memories are almost ever real.
even though there are other scientists on there who have done a lot of work showing 'trauma amnesia' in holocaust survivors and others where the trauma is substantiated and witnessed, but where memory was still totally repressed, they fanatically dispute those findings, and its hard to argue becuase in many cases of recovered memories of the kind we have, its very difficult to substantiate. if nobody witnessed what we went through, its hard to prove these things we remember so much later are real.
i completely believe that its possible to repress memories of trauma becuase i myself remember almost nothing of my childhood and sooooo many people i know describe the process of slowly recovering memories.
its just another example of how people believe totaly different things. they are scientists and not survivors, and i think if they were survivors, their view would be much different.
as a matter of fact ive been tempted here many times to do an informal poll asking survivors of trauma whether they had the impression of slowly recovering memories of their abuse, or ever had the experience of having forgotten or later recalled any of it..... the other people on the other list wouldnt care about that anyway becuase its not 'scientific proof' but, to me you can be so interested in 'evidence' and proof and things that you forget about the actual people involved.
at any rate the experiences of the women (and tiny fraction of men) that i met were extremely ... well they made an impression on me. and you are right, people just do not make that stuff up. they just dont make up that kind of internal (or external) torture. nobody would choose to live like that. nobody would spend that much time on that much if it was just 'made up'. and it isnt schizophrenia or psychosis beucase i also spent a lot of time around people with those issues. its totally and completely different. its a trauma reaction. the mind is a terrible thing to waste........ !!! im still curious and learning. i still dont know all of what happened when i was young. theres still huge gaps for me.
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It's not about saying who is right and who is wrong. It baffles me that you think that. I guess it is lockstep to the opposing tune or be considered callous or uninformed. Now who wants to be right?
Who said FEMA did a great job? Certainly not me. It is about accepting responsibility for your own life. On that we do disagree. I have been poor and I never asked for a government handout or for someone to take care of all my needs including hurricane evacuation. It is a mindset to me. It is looking around you and apprising the situation and deciding, hey, maybe I need to take some responsibility or blame. I didnt evacuate when then told me to or stayed living in a below sea level bowl, hurricane season after hurricane season, putting myself and my family in jeopardy. There are safer cities to be poor in and many will now get that experience. We all have choices and some will always blame someone else and others will take responsibility and change their own lives. I am on the side of the latter.
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Hello all,
Um, I just have to reply to the individual responsibility point made by Bliz. Brace yourself, Bliz! :)
All things being equal, like intelligence, self-awareness, etc., I would say yes, people should take some personal responsibility. And I bet they are. I believe very few would be walking up to reporters saying omigod, I feel so guilty for not moving two years ago when I had the chance.
But all things are not equal. Some of the folks being evacuated now are the uninstitutionalized. Some are dirt poor, can't read, don't have TV or a radio, malnourished, etc. I mean below the poverty line. Poorest of the poor. Some people are unemployable, not lazy.
Let's call this group of poor, old, young, sick, mentally ill, handicapped, the uneducated, the instantly orphaned, our vulnerable. What is our duty to them? Do any of us have social responsibility to anyone else? I bet we all have different ideas about that.
My mind wanders to feudal times when even the serfs had a king's protection (sometimes). I don't know if the serfs knew it might be better one kingdom over. My mind wanders to a poisonous work environment in big business. I figured all big business was like that and that it couldn't be different somewhere else. I was wrong. But I didn't know.
All of what I have just said is against the backdrop of my upbringing of: don't expect us to help you, you are on your own. :(
Last in this loosely strung together set of thoughts is this: My H and I conclude that we ARE on our own for at least 72 hours after a disaster and we're stocking up!!!
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Let's call this group of poor, old, young, sick, mentally ill, handicapped, the uneducated, the instantly orphaned, our vulnerable. What is our duty to them? Do any of us have social responsibility to anyone else? I bet we all have different ideas about that.
I heard another report today about a nursing home where seven people died. That really saddened me that they were considered expendable.
And the most tear jerking, gut wrenching reaction I have had so far was the pictures of the almost total destruction of Waveland, Mississippi. I wailed and cried for those people and yes I could identify with that almost total destruction. I've experienced that on the inside. The only wall standing at city hall was a portion of the memorial mosaic made after Hurricane Camille.
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d's mom and whoever else who wants to: you can watch Daily Show videos at www.thedailyshow.com, too. The one I was linking to is called "inarguable failure." You can find it under "headlines."
note that this is not a post making any more arguments :) I am trying to display will power...
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Video about Miss Kitty rescued and given to her owner.
http://katrinablog.msnbc.com/
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We have to agree to disagree. It is okay to be passionate about what you believe in.
Re: the "vulbnerable", yes, I think there is a small faction that would not be able to evacuate due to illness of any kind. Usually a hurricane prone area will have a plan for these. Of couse in a disaster of this magnitude, all bets are off.
I still believe blame has no place at this table. Analyzing for future use, yes. Blame, no. THere was a lot of blame after Andrew and obviously there are still glitches in the system. There is always the outside chance that no matter how well you plan, a disaster of this proportion will shred the plan.
I still believe that for those still crying in front of the TV, there are other issues at play. This is not said in a shamemaking way. Yes, it can bring up those memories of a dysfunctional childhood. Hopefully people would realize this and continue to take the necessary steps to permanently greive these issues and move on.
Being stuck is a common problem for the codependent and abused, in my opinion and from my personal experience. Codependents easily identify with others facing tragedy. This is defintely okay, but I would hope at some point the main personal issues would be addressed. That doesnt mean you cant still cry in front of the television. It means you know why you are feeling the depth of this, how it relates to your own personal experience and how you are integrating that into your current life and healing plan.
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ok - thats fine if you werent implying anything. thats ok...
Actually, Anna, guess what? It's not ok with me. It seems like you're the only one allowed to have feelings. How come? When you were accused of over reacting and responding with an inappropriate amount of emotion, you get to say: "No. Don't accuse me of that!", and thought I heard you saying that, I felt badly for you having to do all that, and I thought I tried to communicate it, as horrible at communicating as I am. But your response was to incorrectly accuse me of implying stuff, which I denied and even appologised for it seeming that way and now, your response, "that's fine" says to me:
"It doesn't matter that I accused you of implying stuff you weren't implying. It doesn't matter that you appologised and stated that you weren't implying anything. As a matter of fact, I don't even believe you weren't implying anything...I am only willing to agree....if...if...if
you weren't implying anything, that it's fine, which I doubt. Therefore, not only do I not accept your appology, but I think you're a liar to boot. So, let's just get on with my opinion, shall we."
This is how your words came across to me and I feel insulted and and even now, writing this, disappointed and a real understanding of what upset Mudpuppy, not long ago, is starting to seep into my brain. There is more in your post that I found very defining and I just want to point out that I tried to let you know that I am not trying to define you.
I may sound overly emotional or like I'm over reacting too, maybe, to some right now, but to be honest, I don't feel like that. I just feel like saying that I have feelings too, please consider them.
Sela
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Actually, Anna, guess what? It's not ok with me. It seems like you're the only one allowed to have feelings. How come? When you were accused of over reacting and responding with an inappropriate amount of emotion, you get to say: "No. Don't accuse me of that!", and thought I heard you saying that, I felt badly for you having to do all that, and I thought I tried to communicate it, as horrible at communicating as I am. But your response was to incorrectly accuse me of implying stuff, which I denied and even appologised for it seeming that way and now, your response, "that's fine" says to me:
"It doesn't matter that I accused you of implying stuff you weren't implying. It doesn't matter that you appologised and stated that you weren't implying anything. As a matter of fact, I don't even believe you weren't implying anything...I am only willing to agree....if...if...if
you weren't implying anything, that it's fine, which I doubt. Therefore, not only do I not accept your appology, but I think you're a liar to boot. So, let's just get on with my opinion, shall we."
This is how your words came across to me and I feel insulted and and even now, writing this, disappointed and a real understanding of what upset Mudpuppy, not long ago, is starting to seep into my brain. There is more in your post that I found very defining and I just want to point out that I tried to let you know that I am not trying to define you.
I may sound overly emotional or like I'm over reacting too, maybe, to some right now, but to be honest, I don't feel like that. I just feel like saying that I have feelings too, please consider them.
sela........ that wasnt what i was trying to say at all..... how did it come across i dont think other people can have feelings? i totally said, we might have to agree to disagree.........that i respect peoples right to think/feel what they want..
my point about your sentence that seemed to define acts of blame a defense mechanism....... maybe you werent thinking that at all, when you wrote it......... i could totally be wrong..... but it seemed as though, even though you were saying you didnt think blaming was a coping mechanism, but then in that sentence, you kind of maybe subconsciously went ahead and called blaming a coping mechanism anyway. so i pointed that out. maybe i misunderstood it.
i pointed it out becuase, not everybody defines acts of blame as a coping mechanism, and that was part of the disagreement. as long as people are defining things and the other people dont agree with the definition there wont be any middle ground.
but i was =not= trying to not accept any apology or deny anyone the right to feel feelings.?? its obvious there are very deep divisions as to how this is looked at and interpreted and they wont be changed by talking about it becuase it just has to do with peoples world view.
im really confused by how what i said to you was interpreted but, im glad you told me. your feelings are totally important to me. i havent even been on my computer since yesterday or so anyway, but i wasnt plannign to talk about it anymore anyway, becuase i was thinking it isnt worth arguing over..... its obvious we are defining things differently but on the big issues we probably agree so, i could just as easily feel insulted by half the things that bliz has said, which i have, but im not going to fight about it with her, becuase it isnt worth it, beucase it willl not go anywhere or change anything and it will just be negative.
i have felt condescended to by almost everythign that bliz has written recently. but, im not arguing with her about it. im not trying to fight or deny her her right to feel what she wants. becuase, its obvious its how she really really deeply feels and its not going to change. and i dont want her to change. im trying to respect her right to her own opinion even though its =totally= different from mine. this just isnt the place to be talking about it i guess becuase we arent going to see it the same way.
so i for sure wouldnt do that to you. i didnt think the things you said were insulting, i just thought they were open to discussion which i was trying to do. and i hate double standards. you know that. i dont want people to have to consider anything about me that i wouldnt consider about them. i just think this topic is too heated to be productively talked about i guess.
i dont really know what else to say. im sorry if i said anything that upset you. that wasnt my intent. im pretty puzzled by your reaction but maybe you were saying something that i just missed. its easy to do on the internet. for whatever reason this topic is just not easy to talk about, and people are geting insulted very easy, so maybe it just isnt a good topic.
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Breaking out of my self imposed shell and having a voice ...
I still believe that for those still crying in front of the TV, there are other issues at play. This is not said in a shamemaking way. Yes, it can bring up those memories of a dysfunctional childhood. Hopefully people would realize this and continue to take the necessary steps to permanently greive these issues and move on.
You intended these statements as NOT shamemaking but they are! :x
I believe that God can use anything He chooses to bring forth healing. And I believe He is using this in my life to do that, to touch the depth of pain I have.
Hopefully people would realize this ... Duh! What board are you on??? :x
Being stuck is a common problem for the codependent and abused, in my opinion and from my personal experience.
Yep, your opinion and experience. Definitely not mine!
Codependents easily identify with others facing tragedy.
So can intuitives, INFPs and many others and that doesn't make them codependent. Rather it allows them to be compassionate.
This is defintely okay, but I would hope at some point the main personal issues would be addressed.
Phew! I'm sure glad you have given your stamp of approval.
Frankly it is none of your business whether or not I or anyone else addresses their personal issues. So you can hope all you want. :x
The point of this board is to express our feelings and thoughts about our voicelessness and heal in our time and in our way.
That doesnt mean you cant still cry in front of the television. It means you know why you are feeling the depth of this, how it relates to your own personal experience and how you are integrating that into your current life and healing plan.
One word: condescending. And that about sums up what I think about your entire post, condescending. :x
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Ok, I am not one to keep promises (e.g., not posting any more on this) I guess. Blame it on the late night pregnancy insomnia--
But I just want to say that I don't know anyone who isn't crying (or at least crying inside) in front of the tv over this. I feel very connected to the country and to the world actually knowing the amount of compassion that has been outpoured over this tragedy, and that was outpoured (is that a word?) over september 11, which I will never get over completely and will remember every year at this time.
The Dalai Lama said something like this yesterday: that the thing to learn from this tragedy is compassion, and that we are all of us connected.
we can agree on that, yes?
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The Dalai Lama said something like this yesterday: that the thing to learn from this tragedy is compassion, and that we are all of us connected.
we can agree on that, yes?
Yes. Agreed.
My prayers are with the whole of the US at this time, and with its friends and families. We are all bereaved, and we are all grieving with you.
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Sally Forth,
I am sorry you thought my comments were condescending. Of course you are entitled to all your thoughts and emotions, as I am entitled to mine. That is another tenant of regaining our voice. I erroneously thought that part of being here was to share our experience and what worked and didnt work. That was one of the points of my post.
I was stuck for many years, running around emoting over every tragedy that happened to someone else, not realizing I was also greiving my own tragedies by proxy. Once I was able to discern between the two and recognize when my emotions were a little over top for the situation, I was able to fully feel and identify the tragedies that have happened to me. I was able to greive the injustices that had occured to me and release that energy.
Releasing that energy made me much more able to enjoy the living of life in the here and now. Also I was not continually greiving my injustices with each new tragedy, but was able to finally fully grieve them and let go. It changed my life. I was attempting to share that with the group. Conversely, I feel I am being blamed and attempts are made to silence me, because I do not feel the same way as some here or agree with them.
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i didnt like the feeling people were ascribing motives to others, or putting words in their mouth re: their individual reaction. it -felt- condescending and dismissive.
You said that, awhile back, and then went on to say that I was implying stuff and that "it" was "ok"....only "if" I wasn't implying stuff and now I hear my individual reaction being defined as codependant. Yes, I see a double standard.
but i was =not= trying to not accept any apology or deny anyone the right to feel feelings.??
Sorry, this sounds like double speak to me. Am I supposed to feel better now?
Do you mean you did accept my appology and you are sorry you hurt my feelings by not saying so?
its obvious there are very deep divisions as to how this is looked at and interpreted and they wont be changed by talking about it becuase it just has to do with peoples world view.
IMO, the only way to change it is by talking about it but in that talking, to be sure we are talking about ....it......and not subtley insulting or defining eachother, as we go along.
im glad you told me. your feelings are totally important to me.
I appreciate this and so are yours, Anna. That's why I bothered to speak on this thread in the first place and why I am bothering to continue to try to communicate with you specifically.
its obvious we are defining things differently but on the big issues we probably agree...
Defining issues differently is one thing but defining people is something else. I didn't like you being defined as over emotional or that your blaming was some weird thingy that only over emotional people do. But you turn around and define me as codependant and say I'm implying stuff. What stuff?? I've already said I feel insulted about that and disappointed. I clearly stated my feelings.
Big triangle happening here.
What position am I in again? Perp? Resuer? (surely not now). Victim?
i have felt condescended to by almost everythign that bliz has written recently...
So rather than tell her that you do the same thing to me?? Hey.....we've all done it.
im sorry if i said anything that upset you. that wasnt my intent.
I made it clear that it upset me. There is no if. I believe that you didn't intend that.
....people are geting insulted very easy, ....
Here we go again. This is a derogatory statement about people in general which is not fair. When you feel that what people are saying is: "condescending and dismissive", that's ok but if, by chance, other people feel that way about what you are saying then they are just: "getting insulted very easy".
Yep, double standard for sure.
I don't buy it. I don't think I get insulted "very easy". I'm glad you haven't reacted with anger to my expressing my feelings. I'm glad you are trying to understand and I hear you trying to avoid further upset.
You said you are confused and puzzled by my reaction. I'm trying to help diffuse that fog. I do not mean, in turn, to hurt your feelings. I mean to make it clear what you said that hurt mine and I accept and believe that you did not mean to do that.
Sela
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Sally Forth,
I am sorry you thought my comments were condescending. Of course you are entitled to all your thoughts and emotions, as I am entitled to mine. That is another tenant of regaining our voice. I erroneously thought that part of being here was to share our experience and what worked and didnt work. That was one of the points of my post.
Sharing your experience is one thing. However putting others down for theirs and acting superior is another.
I was stuck for many years, running around emoting over every tragedy that happened to someone else, not realizing I was also greiving my own tragedies by proxy. Once I was able to discern between the two and recognize when my emotions were a little over top for the situation, I was able to fully feel and identify the tragedies that have happened to me. I was able to greive the injustices that had occured to me and release that energy.
Now this is not condescending. You ARE sharing YOUR experience and what worked for YOU.
I have never experienced something like that. I went around numb and lived in a fog for years.
Releasing that energy made me much more able to enjoy the living of life in the here and now. Also I was not continually greiving my injustices with each new tragedy, but was able to finally fully grieve them and let go. It changed my life. I was attempting to share that with the group. Conversely, I feel I am being blamed and attempts are made to silence me, because I do not feel the same way as some here or agree with them.
What you were attempting to share with the group is NOT what you shared.
This sounds like a teacher talking to students not someone sharing from their personal experience:
I still believe that for those still crying in front of the TV, there are other issues at play. This is not said in a shamemaking way. Yes, it can bring up those memories of a dysfunctional childhood. Hopefully people would realize this and continue to take the necessary steps to permanently greive these issues and move on.
Being stuck is a common problem for the codependent and abused, in my opinion and from my personal experience. Codependents easily identify with others facing tragedy. This is defintely okay, but I would hope at some point the main personal issues would be addressed. That doesnt mean you cant still cry in front of the television. It means you know why you are feeling the depth of this, how it relates to your own personal experience and how you are integrating that into your current life and healing plan.
I don't believe anyone is trying to silence you because you don't agree with them or feel the same way. Rather it is how you communicate.
This board is about sharing OUR experiences. We all share common ground however we are individuals on our own journeys to wholeness. Therefore your journey will most likely look different than mine. It doesn't mean yours is better or worse than mine. What works for you may or may not work for me and vice versa. And we can all learn from each other through sharing our journeys.
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Sally, I give up. I guess you are the ultimate judge of what people really mean or are trying to say. You dont like my opinions and experiences or my communication style.
But it is okay for you to interpret my words and intent incorrectly and assign, (here comes that word again), blame, where none was intended. Not much growth occurs in this environment.
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I see nothing wrong or hurtful in your communication style. You have communicated from the very first post that you had lived through a hurricane yourself, and you had been a codependent as well – so the point you are trying to make in linking the two sprang from your personal experience. I did read in your post from the very beginning that your opinion came out of your own experiences, that is why it had credence for me.
Sometimes people use loaded terms, like “we” or “board” in their posts while expressing their personal opinions. It does not mean they speak for everyone. I see the point you were trying to make re. reaction to Katrina; it had not been obvious to me at first. Now I have reached conclusion that it is a valid point of view. It does not mean that every feeling expressed or every tear shed over the victims is an expression of some kind of a personal grieving, far from that, nor do I think that you intended to mean that.
BTW, my politics is not at the same spectrum as yours. I believe that hurricane victims bear 0% responsibility for not having evacuated or anything else they had to go through. I would be shell shocked in their situation, too crippled to make any decision at all.
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Sally, I give up. I guess you are the ultimate judge of what people really mean or are trying to say. You dont like my opinions and experiences or my communication style.
But it is okay for you to interpret my words and intent incorrectly and assign, (here comes that word again), blame, where none was intended. Not much growth occurs in this environment.
I never said I was the ultimate judge of what people really mean or are trying to say.
I never said I don't like your opinions and experiences.
I did say your communication style was condescending.
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Marta,
Thanks for expressing that you got the point I was trying to make. I appreciate that.
Sally,
In many ways it appears all about implication. You think/feel I am being condescending, although I have apologized and repeatedly said that was not my intent. IMO, you have been judgemental about both my opinions and my attempts to pass on what I have learned along the way. It would not stop me from sharing, as I feel that would be again to lose my voice.
You dont have to agree or even like what I say, which is your choice. Maybe it is a form of black/white thinking. I have found that to be another tenant of my codependant journey. I had to fight the propensity to decide which category events, people, attitudes, opinion are put iin, good or bad, and stick to that. I have found there are a lot of grey areas in life and this may be one of them. We cant control everything or everyone and it is somewhat freeing to realize this.
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ok - i was away for a few days, first i wanted to be off the computer, then i was involved in registering for fall term.... then i ended up borrowing another computer so i could be on the internet without crashing all the time. i think its finally set up & after this message i will be using the other computer so maybe i can even login & get private messages.
i wrote most of this a few days ago, but was gone longer than i thought.
i didnt like the feeling people were ascribing motives to others, or putting words in their mouth re: their individual reaction. it -felt- condescending and dismissive.
You said that, awhile back, and then went on to say that I was implying stuff and that "it" was "ok"....only "if" I wasn't implying stuff and now I hear my individual reaction being defined as codependant. [/i]
ok ........... this has been a major misunderstanding. we can stop discussing this, that would be fine, but i wanted to let you know obviously this was not what i was trying to say.
i had no intention of saying or meaning that 'it' was only 'ok' 'if' you were or werent 'implying' 'stuff'.......
even though you tell me it isnt what you meant, it -still- appeared from what you wrote (it was not clear to me) that you -were- ascribing to a belief that people reacting emotionally -were- being inappropriate........... at the very least, it wasnt clear, becuase of the sentence i pointed out. thats why i pointed it out.
now you are saying that =wasnt= what you are saying. welll..... i guess you had something in mind but it isnt what i heard. thats why i was trying to get clarification.
also, it seems as though my use of the word 'codependent' was misconstrued.
that had absolutely no intention of saying you personally are 'codependent' or name you or label you personally!>>>>>.....
i was saying, reacting to what i read that you wrote, that i didnt understand why someone would want to share what i saw as -more- responsbility than was truly theirs. i did say that that attitude seemed 'codependent' -- maybe a better term would be a blurring of boundaries or something else, i dont know. maybe it was misinterpreted that i was calling you or anyone else personally codependent. that wasnt the case. it seemed you were discussing the idea of people in general taking on more responsibilty that was necessary, and i didnt see that as necessary or a healthy thing either, and thats what i said. i wasnt trying to talk about you personally or call anybody codependent.
but i was =not= trying to not accept any apology or deny anyone the right to feel feelings.??
Sorry, this sounds like double speak to me. Am I supposed to feel better now?
Do you mean you did accept my appology and you are sorry you hurt my feelings by not saying so?[/i]
i mean, i did not even get the message that you were even apologising for anything. i thought we were talking about something completely different. i thought we were talking about ascribing responsiblity, and how much it is or isnt appropriate, and whether or not having emotional reactions alter a realistic appraisal of allocating responsibility...... thats what i thought we were talking about.
since you clarify that you were actually apologising to me for seeming to mislabel me, then please, be aware thats not what i read from your post - and im sorry that i apparently missed it, but for whatever reason it did not come across.
its obvious there are very deep divisions as to how this is looked at and interpreted and they wont be changed by talking about it becuase it just has to do with peoples world view.
IMO, the only way to change it is by talking about it but in that talking, to be sure we are talking about ....it......and not subtley insulting or defining eachother, as we go along.[/i]
well..... i was feeling just as subtly defined and insulted as well! that was the whole point of my objection originally, which i think is still some of the problem happening. the whole original objection had to do with defining people, (anyone, not just me) who either reacts with emotion or who seeks accountability in a trauma, as someone who is either not healthy about their reactions or not reacting appropriately. i felt this was unfair and inaccurate and argued that.
then other people got upset, and thought i was defining -them- with something else. i guess the bottom line is nobody likes to feel defined, right? who actually might have been doing it, and who just felt like it was happening, is open to debate and probably will be disagreed about. its really hard to interpret blank writing like this, everybody knows that.
its obvious we are defining things differently but on the big issues we probably agree...
Defining issues differently is one thing but defining people is something else. I didn't like you being defined as over emotional or that your blaming was some weird thingy that only over emotional people do. [/i]
well, i totally appreciate that and im glad to hear it. please understand, i just flat missed that in your post. my reply was trying to get clarification on the things you said. if i had thought you had apologised or said what you say you said, my reply would have likely been different.
But you turn around and define me as codependant and say I'm implying stuff. What stuff?? I've already said I feel insulted about that and disappointed. I clearly stated my feelings.
well here is a misunderstanding. i did not say 'you were codependent'........ i said it sounded like a codependent attittude to take on responsibility that isnt yours. (thats general, for anyone, not just you personally). you say i read it wrong. OK!!! thats what clarification is for. so you are thinking i just turned around and started calling you stuff, which hurt your feelings, but, really, that wasnt my intent..... i was talking about the attitudes and generalities -i- thought we were discussing.. i had no intention of insulting or ignoring or anything like that.
Big triangle happening here.
What position am I in again? Perp? Resuer? (surely not now). Victim?
i dont know. do we have to be in a triangle? i dont feel i am. i think maybe you stepped in to be a rescuer, but it backfired, becuase i didnt play a role that was expected of me?...... i appreciate you stepping in to help me, i repeat again, i absolutley did not get that out of the post that i read.
i have felt condescended to by almost everythign that bliz has written recently...
So rather than tell her that you do the same thing to me?? [/i]
that might have been how you felt or what you read. but, it just wasnt what i was doing.
....people are geting insulted very easy, ....
Here we go again. This is a derogatory statement about people in general which is not fair. When you feel that what people are saying is: "condescending and dismissive", that's ok but if, by chance, other people feel that way about what you are saying then they are just: "getting insulted very easy".
Yep, double standard for sure.[/i]
sela: i think its pretty obvious that i was getting insulted just as much as anybody else. if i wasnt, i would feel more able to continue the conversation rather than just stopping. actually, it insults me right then that you accuse me of having a double standard when i clearly dont! but, again, why wreck a friendship over it.
i didnt say '-you- are getting insulted' or 'other people are getting insulted' ----- i said 'people' like, all of us. i was 100% including myself. its just another way of how easy it is to misunderstand peoples meaning in this context.
I'm glad you haven't reacted with anger to my expressing my feelings.
well, i have no reason to. it doesnt make me angry when people express their feelings. it upsets me when i feel like people are pigeonholing others, or being unfair or reactionary, or closed-minded, me or anybody. you said you werent doing that, i was still -unclear- beucase of some things that you said, i wrote about that, and then this was upsetting to you. now we are trying to figure it out.
it really triggers me personally when i feel people are being closed minded, especially politically, becuase the stakes are high and it -is- personal. thats what i was feeling like, and thats why i feel its usually better not to talk about it. i am going to confess to you that i personally believe deep in my heart of hearts that -some- of the attitudes and points of view expressed in that thread were in -my- view, closed minded. i am going to continue to be triggered by what i percieve as closed-mindedness, and choose to avoid interfacing with it. its the same way i would feel in the middle of a drunk mob. i would want to get away as fast as possible from that kind of mentality beucase i am literally frightened of that way of thinking. it scares me, and talking to people who believe that way makes me feel very much like im hitting my head against a wall.
but to other people, its their perspective and to them, its correct and they percieve that -i- am the one who is strange or wrong. so rather than be triggered by who this person is, id rather just let it go. please dont take that as any insult. im sure that is goign to be interpreted as an insult by someone, perhaps everyone. however im trying to describe what was triggering for me about that conversation.
I'm glad you are trying to understand and I hear you trying to avoid further upset.
....I mean to make it clear what you said that hurt mine and I accept and believe that you did not mean to do that.
well, im glad of that. i had no intention of hurting anyones feelings in any way, especially yours. (but not anyones!)
to really clarify, i *really* want you to understand, that that post from you didnt read to me like how you say you intended it at all..... (as mine apparently didnt either)
it -sounded- as though you were saying 'even though reacting emotionally in a trauma -is- actually a coping mechanism, its still ok'. it appeared like a left-handed compliment - like you were saying it but not quite saying it. thats what i was unclear about and asking about. then the codependent thing, was interpreted as a personal insult or something when it totally was something different. so, this whole thing has been misinterpreted from all sides apparently.
you say you were apologising and i believe that....... its still not what i understood from it..... however if thats what you say you meant, i believe you and im sorry i didnt react to that and it hurt you.
i wasnt ignoring you, just finishing a bunch of stuff, and just letting the whole thing go for a few days...... i personally dont have the stomach for political disagreement anymore, becuase its too personal. the stakes are too high for me to be detached anymore discussing politics. i used to like it, it used to be challenging, now its just triggering.
but i didnt mean to hurt you or anyone for sure, or certainly ignore any apology or anything.. hope that makes sense.
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bliz:
i wanted to tell you personally the reason i didnt keep writing to you, and just removed myself........ the reason what you wrote ---appeared--- condescending to me, even though you may not have intended that, (im not saying it -was- condescending, im saying that to me, it -appeared- that way) was becuase it -seemed- to talk in absolutes and make assumptions......... =not= saying it did that...... just saying thats how it -appeared- to me......
so, rather than say, "well -sometimes- people can have inappropriate reactions" or that it happens sometimes or in some cases or to some people, which i could have totally agreed with, it appeared more of a blanket statement ( not saying im not guilty of those too) as though it was true in -every- single case, which i -didnt- agree with.....
you could see how that could be interpreted, right? if you were just saying it is -sometimes- inappropriate, or it -sometimes- happens, then we always agreed from the beginning.
but i -couldnt- agree with saying it was -always- inappropriate or it always happens..... which was how your writing and words -appeared- to be framing it.
hope that makes sense.
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Anna, it seems you're certain that you've simply misunderstood and missed things that I've said and that's it. Also, you've decided that I've done the same thing and that's it too.
i guess you had something in mind but it isnt what i heard.
I want to be sure I'm getting what you have in mind now so....are you speaking to me, Anna, because you didn't address your post to anyone. What's with that?
For some reason it seems like you think the idea of defining *people's* attitude is somewhat less insulting. I find defining insulting period and I do mess up but I try not to do it, usually.
I wasn't implying anything and I'm sorry it may have seemed that way.
if i had thought you had apologised or said what you say you said, my reply would have likely been different.
What is your reply Anna?
...im sorry that i apparently missed it, but....
"but" is a way of backing out of appologizing. This isn't an appology. It's an explanation, some might even call it...an excuse.
if thats what you say you meant, i believe you and im sorry i didnt react to that and it hurt you.
Appology accepted.
that might have been how you felt or what you read. but, it just wasnt what i was doing.
This statement totally invalidates my feelings. What you're saying is that it "might".......have been what I felt. Are you trying to take back your appology? Probably not.
actually, it insults me right then that you accuse me of having a double standard when i clearly dont! but, again, why wreck a friendship over it.
I'm sorry I said you had a double standard and that I insulted you. I have no excuse. I could have found a better way of getting my point across and I didn't try hard enough.
..it really triggers me personally when i feel people are being closed minded.
Which people? Are they closed minded if they disagree?
i am literally frightened of that way of thinking. it scares me, and talking to people who believe that way makes me feel very much like im hitting my head against a wall.
Your feelings are valid.
but i didnt mean to hurt you or anyone for sure
Again, I believe what you're saying about your intentions.
I don't think this communication will ruin our friendship. I do think that it's good to work out conflict and since this one started on the board, it would be nice to see it resolved on the board.
Sela
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Sally,
In many ways it appears all about implication. You think/feel I am being condescending, although I have apologized
I accept your apology bliz.
and repeatedly said that was not my intent.
Ah ha, was not your intent. I felt it was condescending and assuming. Regardless of your intent, that is what I felt and that is how I perceived you.
I didn't have a problem when you used "I" statements and expressed your thoughts, your feelings, etc.. I don't have a problem hearing about your thoughts, your feelings, etc..
When I use "I" statements rather than "you" or "blanket" statements I am expressing myself and sharing my experience.
The intent of "you" and "blanket" statements is tell someone how they should feel or think. That manner of expressing oneself is perceived by me as condescending. It is not about sharing one's experience. It is about saying, "it was that way for me so it is that way for you or should be that way for you."
In the following you have used both "you" and "blanket" statements and it is confusing. Are you talking about yourself? Yes or no or unknown.
I still believe that for those still crying in front of the TV, there are other issues at play. This is not said in a shamemaking way. Yes, it can bring up those memories of a dysfunctional childhood. Hopefully people would realize this and continue to take the necessary steps to permanently greive these issues and move on.
Being stuck is a common problem for the codependent and abused, in my opinion and from my personal experience. Codependents easily identify with others facing tragedy. This is defintely okay, but I would hope at some point the main personal issues would be addressed. That doesnt mean you cant still cry in front of the television. It means you know why you are feeling the depth of this, how it relates to your own personal experience and how you are integrating that into your current life and healing plan.
You believe? How do you know? Based on what? Because you were that way! Not necessarily because anyone else is that way.
Below here you clearly say this is about you. You own it. These are "I" statements. I am VERY clear that you are sharing your experiences.
I erroneously thought that part of being here was to share our experience and what worked and didnt work. That was one of the points of my post.
I was stuck for many years, running around emoting over every tragedy that happened to someone else, not realizing I was also greiving my own tragedies by proxy. Once I was able to discern between the two and recognize when my emotions were a little over top for the situation, I was able to fully feel and identify the tragedies that have happened to me. I was able to greive the injustices that had occured to me and release that energy.
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Sally, D'Mom, etc.
I dont think it will help to keep going over this word by word. I question why it is needed? It is obvious there has been misunderstanding and misinterpretation of my words. I have expressed my feelings. I have apologized for any misinterpretation. I do not see an apology forthcoming for how I was misinterpreted and misunderstood, but dont really expect or need one. We are allowed to disagree is the bottom line for me. I do not feel you are a bad person or I am a bad person because we disagree.
As an aside, the way people are evacuated out of the Florida Keys could be used as a role model for hurricane preparedness. They have always had a plan and always, always, encouraged their residents to have their own plan. There is only one road in and out. Also there are many homeless, poor etc. Somehow it seems to work like clockwork, almost every time. This would be about the sixth evacuation in two years. ALso most nursing homes and hospitals have agreements with other nursing homes and hospitals outside of the Keys to transport the sick and elderly.
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On the subject of "I" statements vs. "you" statements:
If someone steps on my foot, I am going to say:
"Excuse me, that's my foot."
If that does not work, we move to:
"Hey, you are on my foot. Please move."
if that does not work, we progress to:
"Would you please get off my foot?"
and if that does not work, we progress further to:
"YOU! Get. Off. My. Foot. NOW!"
Further levels of escalation are left as a thought exercise for the reader... you will note, though, that nearly all of them have the word YOU prominently featured (and believe me, it just gets more prominent).
Now:
I can absolutely, positively, 1000% guarantee that the one thing I will never say, in such a circumstance, is the following:
"When you step on my foot, it hurts me, and then I feel bad."
There is a limit to the usefulness of this construct.* Also true when someone steps on your feelings... no matter who's the one doing the stepping, or who's the one doing the feeling. So... folks saying 'you' here, in the heat of the moment, looks to me more like a normal human response to a sharp pain**, rather than blaming language.
But, of course, it's not my[/i] foot being stepped on, and nobody asked for my opinion anyway, dern me... so I will now shut up and go away.
*mental image of one soldier telling enemy soldier wielding assault rifle: "See, when you shoot me with that thing, I fall down and bleed, and it hurts, and I feel bad, and I'm afraid I'm going to die..."
**being a bit of a sharp pain myself, right now, ain't I.
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That's pretty funny!!!
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thank you - i'm glad it came across that way, i was truly trying to crack a smile rather than be a pain. :-). love y'all.