Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: write on September 04, 2005, 03:42:24 PM
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Like many people I have watched and listened in horror about the natural disasters in the US Southern states, but one thing struck me over and over again: the behaviour of the reporters in adding to the distress and making irresponsible claims and demands.
Just last night on CNN I heard a reporter complaining that citizens in New Orleans 'still don't have access to telephones'. What?
It is less than a week on from what will almost certainly turn out to be the US worst natural disaster.
If anyone wants to see what the previous holder of this title was, also a Gulf Coast storm surge, read about the Galveston Great Storm of 1900 on http://www.1900storm.com/
We all saw the devastation from the tsunami last winter, which surely must have educated people as to the destructive nature of huge storm surges. No power, no water, no sanitation, no supplies.
Helicopter and rescue people have been working around the clock, huge forces have been mobilised here, yet because inevitably it was hard to save everyone, to reach everyone and the rescuers needed to bring in their own infrastructure what we see in the media is criticism and complaint.
I heard one conversation on public radio which sounded like a spoiled child, a reporter repeatedly asking a national guard leader when supplies would reach the needy, and each time he tried to explain she interrupted with an even louder whine. It was embarrassing but not unusual in the standard of reporting I've witnessed this week.
Every time there is a big event it seems to me the media particularly the US TV networks and UK newspapers exploit it as ruthlessly as possible, turning tragedies into 24 hour info-tainment which is often largely speculation. The news agencies are not content to wait until all the facts are in before they report, and they forget that these are real people whose pictures and stories are exploited.
Picking my son up from daycare I heard a mother say she wasn't going Downtown any more because of the influx of 'out-of-control blacks from New Orleans'...I wonder if the reporters care about the images they portray of people in the media, or the long-lasting impact on their lives.
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write:
Picking my son up from daycare I heard a mother say she wasn't going Downtown any more because of the influx of 'out-of-control blacks from New Orleans'...I wonder if the reporters care about the images they portray of people in the media, or the long-lasting impact on their lives
thank you sooooooo much for that, write. half of my family is from LA and MS. they are beutiful, hard-working, respectful, law-abiding citizens. we haven't been able to establish contact just yet with them, but i pray they are all alive and in relatively decent spirits. your post relaxes the furrow that's been in my brow for the past week. i'm praying there are many more thoughtful individuals like yourself and fewer folks like the mom at your daycare. i know they look like third world refugees as far as most can tell, but these displaced black folks really could use the benefit of the doubt right now.
thanks again for the empathy, write
tiffany
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I'm praying for your family, tif.
Write, maybe you should say in that woman's earshot that you aren't sure you ought to bring your child to daycare anymore, because there are out of control racist white people there.
Plucky
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........:-(
Two rants to add to write's exquisite list..........
Rant #1:
black people taking bread and diapers and changes of clothes from stores where these things will otherwise be lost to flood damage are referred to as "looters".
white people taking bread and diapers and changes of clothes from stores where these things will otherwise be lost to flood damage are referred to as "scavengers".
This is bad and wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin.
Rant #2:
Has anyone else noticed that the major network news shows (I don't have cable so I'm being spared their excesses) all seem to be presenting this story as if it were some kind of entertainment special? Slick logos, hyped-up overproduced graphics, etc. Fortunately there's been some increase in awareness on the part of the reporters on the ground that real people are trapped, hurt, dying... but so help me, in terms of production values it looks like they can't distinguish this tragedy - in our own land, in our own house, these people are fathers, mothers, babies, brothers, sisters, grandparents - from an episode of "Survivor".
........:-(
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All the above is why I don't watch much TV....lol. On the other hand, reporters managed to get into NOLA right away and that is why I can't understand why FEMA couldn't.
Hyatt Regency got food into NOLA for its guests and employees on Wednesday!!!! If one company could feed its people, maybe I can understand the frustration of reporters when the government agencies cannot.
I just hope this doesn't become all about entertainment and soundbites. I think there are those that get all their news from TV and when the talking heads go off on another topic, they forget all about it. What happened in this tragedy raises alot of issues that should not go away.
Most of the citizens of NOLA were working poor. Put anyone in the Superdome for five days without food, water, adequate toilet facilites and the ability to bathe...and anyone is going to come out looking and smelling terrible. Of course, as a nation, we tend to focus on looks and not as how things really are.
Racism and classism is alive and well in our country.
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/050902/094479.html
Guests Evacuated Today From Hyatt Regency New Orleans
Friday September 2, 7:52 pm ET
Global Hyatt Corporation and Strategic Hotel Capital, Inc. Announce Worldwide Hyatt Relief Fund for Employees Affected by Hurricane Katrina
"CHICAGO, IL--(MARKET WIRE)--Sep 2, 2005 -- Hyatt Regency New Orleans and the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) today announced the evacuation of hurricane victims -- including both guests and employees -- from the hotel. With the exception of a small group of Hyatt executives, safety experts, city officials and FEMA representatives, all guests have vacated the premises.
According to Hyatt Regency General Manager Michael Smith, guests and employees who had operable cars were evacuated and cleared to drive to points north via caravan, and the remainder were evacuated via bus. No guests were suffering from major injury or illness at the time of evacuation, Smith said.
The approximately 900 guests that remained on the premises following Katrina's powerful blow -- primarily hotel staff and their families, officials, and those in emergency-related roles -- were safely relocated to the hotel's well-sheltered ballroom, exhibit hall areas and serviceable guest rooms where they were kept comfortable following the hurricane while city and emergency officials began the difficult process of assessing storm related damage to the hotel and the city.
According to Smith, the heaviest physical damage to the property was caused by significant water and debris being blown into hotel guest rooms and atrium lobby after windows were shattered by severe winds.
A convoy of food and supplies provided by Hyatt hotels in Atlanta and Houston arrived at Hyatt Regency New Orleans on Wednesday of this week.
Those who are concerned about the safety and location of friends or family who were staying at Hyatt Regency New Orleans should call Hyatt's toll-free, Special Assistance Number, (866) 674-8148 or contact a Hyatt crisis representative at crisisleads@hyatt.com.
Hyatt continues to alert its customers who have reservations through March 31, 2006 that the hotel will not be able to accommodate them and that all cancellation fees will be waived. In addition, Hyatt's national sales force is in the process of contacting all meeting planners who have programs scheduled at Hyatt Regency New Orleans between now and March 31, to provide assistance with relocation to other destinations.
Hyatt and Strategic Hotel Capital, Inc. Establish Global Relief Fund to Aid Employees Affected by Hurricane Katrina
Hyatt, in partnership with Strategic Hotel Capital, Inc., also announced today that a Global Hurricane Relief Fund has been established to allow employees of Global Hyatt companies around the world to provide cash donations to aid Hyatt Regency New Orleans employees and their families who have been so severely impacted by Hurricane Katrina.
Hyatt will match every employee donation dollar for dollar and both Global Hyatt Corporation and Strategic Hotel Capital, Inc. -- owners of the Hyatt Regency New Orleans real estate -- will make significant corporate donations to the fund immediately.
According to Chuck Floyd, executive vice president of Hyatt Hotels Corporation, this is the first of several initiatives that the Company and many of its individual hotels are initiating to provide relief for employees' loss of property and personal possessions.
"Hyatt Regency New Orleans is a large hotel and therefore has a large employee base," Floyd said. "We feel that providing cash donations at the onset of the recovery process will have the quickest impact to hurricane victims. Once we establish an inventory of specific items that are needed by these families, we can begin supplementing our relief effort with food, supplies, clothing and other goods."
Prior to the hurricane, Hyatt Regency New Orleans employed approximately 500 people.
Hyatt has also initiated a permanent and temporary job placement program for its New Orleans employees in other Hyatt locations, Floyd added. Several Hyatt and AmeriSuites hotels in affected areas are providing shelter for hurricane victims at both complimentary and deeply discounted rates, while other properties are providing bedding, linens and clothing to those who have been relocated to areas of Texas including the Astrodome and Reunion Arena in Houston and Dallas."
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In general, I think the mainstream media have been ok-- I also don't have cable and I am sure I wouldn't like how most cable stations have been treating it. I really just watched Elizabeth Vargas (abc?) and I liked how she looked haggard and was in a t-shirt and jeans and I thought that coverage was respectful. They sort of hit a lot of the important points, looked at the situation from different angles. It wasn't slick at all. But I haven't seen much else of the nighttime news on this.
Meet the Press, as I mentioned on the other thread, was excellent. But in general the Sunday morning shows like Meet the Press are more intellectual and really do try to figure out what's up. At least on ABC and CBS. The NY Times today had a lot of really insightful articles, today, too. I mean, people are asking hard questions, but not in a way that seems unnecessary-- they are trying to ask questions relevant to getting everything fixed now and making sure it doesn't happen this way in the future.
I understand Fox News, which I cannot watch or read about or acknowledge its existence in any way because of my blood pressure :) has been awful, concentrating on the "looters" and the crime. Its kind of like "look at all the african americans out of control." If they are covering things in that way then just the thought of that makes me really sad. I hope they aren't.
Maybe I should just not find out about it, if they are...
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Vunil, I'm not sure which channel I saw that strangely dualistic coverage on... I do sample them all, during a crisis; don't watch much the rest of the time. So it could have been FOX or ABC or NBC or whoever.
Thanks for the vote of confidence in the Times-Picayune, Amethyst... they look like they're giving it to us very straight.
The radio station I listen to here (a CBS affiliate) has picked up some coverage that might have come from WWL, I'm not sure if they have a feeder in to anyone.
Added on edit: oops, that bit about the T-P belongs on another thread. Oh well...
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I think MSNBC has done a pretty good job. In lieu of actual reporters, they put camera men on to describe what they had seen and their descriptions were pretty graphic.
Lots of the glitz stuff you see is to allow the crew in the studio to transition...meaning take a drink of water, go to the bathroom, move cameras around, talk to the producer to see what info they have for the next segment etc. etc. There is an enormous behid the scenes involvement in terms of equipment and technicians to support the on-air product and, in the case of breaking news, no script. In shows such as Meet the Press, it is a half-hour show carefully prepared beforehand and limited to certain questions and topics so it does have at least the appearance of having more integrity but is actually just more predictable than breaking news.
And, I know from my days of going to breaking news stories, we often did not eat, sleep or bathe for long periods of time. It's not very glamorous for the reporter or the crew. If we were lucky enough to know we were going to be there for a while, it took time to stock up on fuel, batteries, food, water, etc. just to get going. And occasionally we needed a police escort. We also needed to be able to deal with dead bodies and still keep working
I guess I'm an apologist for news gathering. If they didn't get those pictures out, no one would know.
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I think MSNBC has done a pretty good job. In lieu of actual reporters, they put camera men on to describe what they had seen and their descriptions were pretty graphic.
Lots of the glitz stuff you see is to allow the crew in the studio to transition...meaning take a drink of water, go to the bathroom, move cameras around, talk to the producer to see what info they have for the next segment etc. etc. There is an enormous behid the scenes involvement in terms of equipment and technicians to support the on-air product and, in the case of breaking news, no script. In shows such as Meet the Press, it is a half-hour show carefully prepared beforehand and limited to certain questions and topics so it does have at least the appearance of having more integrity but is actually just more predictable than breaking news.
And, I know from my days of going to breaking news stories, we often did not eat, sleep or bathe for long periods of time. It's not very glamorous for the reporter or the crew. If we were lucky enough to know we were going to be there for a while, it took time to stock up on fuel, batteries, food, water, etc. just to get going. And occasionally we needed a police escort. We also needed to be able to deal with dead bodies and still keep working
I guess I'm an apologist for news gathering. If they didn't get those pictures out, no one would know.
Thank God they have gotten the pictures out. A picture is often worth much more than 1000 words.
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Thanks, dogbit. It does help to know what goes on behind the scenes. It just bothers me that anyone anywhere would think that it is appropriate to have a logo!!! for this coverage...
I grew up with Walter Cronkite and the Huntley-Brinkley team, and I guess that's where my ideas of how solemn sad things 'should' be handled originates. What we grow up with really influences us.
You're right, there's been a lot of humanity and caring coming out in these reports. I guess I can close my eyes and hold my nose at the 'marketing'-type stuff, and be grateful for the caring, which is far more important.
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Write, excellent post.
Yes, I think this catastrophe is also going to bring plight of African Americans again to center stage politics, thanggod for that.
Among the jounrnos, yeah, Elizabeth Vargas and Tim Russert are my favorites. I haaaaaaaate Maureen Dowd. I am utterly disappointed with Krugman. As an economist, he has an excellent platform in NYT to expose policy decisions that are based on shaky and fuzzy2+2=7 type economic thinking. Instead, as far as I can tell, he spends 90% of his print ranting about Bush.
Sometime ago I had seen an excellent documentary, War Photographer, which shows behind the scenes stress and competition between journalists in war and catastrophe coverage.
JS:
i know they look like third world refugees as far as most can tell, but these displaced black folks really could use the benefit of the doubt right now.
TIfany, what is THAT supposed to mean? It reads to me like "third world refugees" are bad but "displaced black folks" are good and are incidentally being mistaken for them. I am from third world and I find the analogy completely uncalled for and kinda offensive....How would you like it if, in discussion of poor white people, someone commented "I know they look like black slum dwellers, but they could use benefit of doubt."
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Current E-News Alert
Action Needed to Preserve Medicaid Funding for ACT Programs
In response to the tragedy unfolding in the Gulf States following the destruction wrought by Hurricane Katrina, NAMI has created a resource center on our Web site and established a fund to aid victims of the hurricane with serious mental illnesses and their families. To find information and to learn more about how you can help, visit www.nami.org.
September 2, 2005
On September 6, Congress returns from its month-long summer recess and will begin work on a massive budget measure that includes a requirement to limit future Medicaid spending by $10 billion over the next 5 years. Among the proposals under consideration is a significant restriction on the ability of state Medicaid programs to support intensive case management for children and adults with severe mental illness. In recent years, many states have begun using available options under Medicaid (targeted case management and rehabilitation) to finance intensive case management as part of assertive community treatment (ACT) programs.
Despite the fact that a Medicaid Reform Commission rejected this proposal, it is still expected to receive serious consideration in Congress. As early as next week, both the Senate Finance Committee and the House Energy & Commerce Committee will consider a proposal initiated by the Bush Administration to modify the definitions of both targeted case management and rehabilitation to exclude ACT programs that are run by public mental health agencies and CMHCs.
Action Required
Advocates are strongly encouraged to forward the attached letter to members of Congress urging them to:
oppose restrictions to the definition of rehabilitation and case management services recommended by the Bush Administration,
oppose increases in co-payments for non-preferred prescription drugs covered under Medicaid, and
oppose efforts to restrict access to medications to treat mental illness through prior authorization, step therapy and mandatory therapeutic substitution requirements implemented as part of state supplemental rebate programs.
Because of current delays related to screening of all U.S. mail going into congressional offices, it is highly recommended that advocates forward letters to their state's congressional delegation by using fax machines and e-mails (please identify your home address in all e-mail messages). Given the urgency, advocates are also urged to contact congressional offices by phone.
Enter your zip code below to access a sample letter on this issue and a list of your representatives to contact now. If you do not see the box for entering your zip code, click here.
OR
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marta:
TIfany, what is THAT supposed to mean? It reads to me like "third world refugees" are bad but "displaced black folks" are good and are incidentally being mistaken for them. I am from third world and I find the analogy completely uncalled for and kinda offensive....How would you like it if, in discussion of poor white people, someone commented "I know they look like black slum dwellers, but they could use benefit of doubt."
imo,in america, there is general apathy to black third world countries, (it is not uncommon for brief blips of haggard haitain refugee families packed on a little dinghy or swollen-bellied african children experiencing drought to conjure comments like, "turn the tv to something less depressing" in our public halls). i've witnessed this innumerable times in my own as well as the white community. i apologize that this comment is offensive to you in its grittiness. i was trying to drive home the point that we should not look at these media images the way we normally do when we see citiizens of other countries in peril. i was attempting to tickle that honest, visceral impression that comes to mind when we (apathetic americans) think of black/brown third world refugees, and am challenging that we remember these images are of our own countrymen and deserve more than the typical sympathetic shrug.
also marta, if someone said the comment you mentioned, i would be neither shocked or upset. unfortunately, i'm used to FAR WORSE than that here in Virginia, in the newsmedia and in daily life.
again, to marta and other citizens of third world countries, i apologize.
tif.
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We are having a really interesting thing happen here in Texas. We have received tons of refugees and they are starting to get acclimated to the town. I haven't seen them (there are thousands, so it's noticable downtown that there are all these new people) but my friends who dropped off stuff for them said that it is so interesting to see the diversity-- we don't have that kind of diversity here, usually. Not sure why, but this isn't an area where african americans have settled very much and most of the folks who have come here are african ameican. Since many of them may not have anything to go back to, they may stay. I think that is really sociologically notable-- this may be a time historians look back on certain communities and note that the community changed because of the refugees from NO. It's too early to know how it will play out-- the real estate here is expensive which may mean people don't settle here as much, and I have no idea what the job situation is like-- I'm assuming it's like the rest of the country (just ok). Still-- in some ways when the media lose interest is when the really notable stuff may start happening-- the real ramifications of the storm. I sort of have been bugged by the idea of how segregated NO (and the country in many ways) was and there is something cool about thinking of that getting broken up a bit.
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Vunil, I love to work on my family geneology, what a story this will be for the families affected.
Here is the informaion about the area my BIL lives in, their town was not hit as hard as some.
This is an example of the thoughts to continue to rebuild the surrounding areas and the time expected to reopen, looks like no sooner than January 19th 2006
Jefferson Parish School System - Press Release
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September 4, 2005
The Jefferson Parish Public School System has set up an auxiliary site at the State Department of Education office in Baton Rouge. Coordination of efforts to assess, rebuild, and re-open the school system will be housed in Baton Rouge until further notice. Financial operations are also being transferred to Baton Rouge. An initial core of central office administrators and clerical support has reported. Additional staff will be reporting as circumstances allow. Please be assured that we are moving as expeditiously as
we can in conjunction with parish, state and federal entity. The administration, in partnership, with the Jefferson Federation of Teachers is ensuring that employees will be paid in a timely manner via direct deposit until other financial decisions can be made. We will not be able to re-open most schools until the second semester on January 19, 2006. Our goal is to re-open some of our schools, as many as we can, in the first semester. Parents and guardians should enroll their children in schools where their families are
currently housed.
The following are steps that will be taken by the Jefferson Parish School System:
The personnel and payroll records are being secured and transported.
As soon as clearance is given by parish government, teams headed by David Taylor, Assistant Superintendent for Facilities, will assess damage to facilities, equipment and supplies.
Schools most easily repaired will be opened first. Those schools will be utilized for as many as two shifts of students in a split schedule arrangement.
School populations may change in the interim to facilitate re-openings.
A telephone line for questions will be set up and advertised in the near future.
Information will be posted on the State Department of Education website - www.louisianaschools.net.
Diane Roussel, Ph.D
Superintendent
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marta:
TIfany, what is THAT supposed to mean? It reads to me like "third world refugees" are bad but "displaced black folks" are good and are incidentally being mistaken for them. I am from third world and I find the analogy completely uncalled for and kinda offensive....How would you like it if, in discussion of poor white people, someone commented "I know they look like black slum dwellers, but they could use benefit of doubt."
imo,in america, there is general apathy to black third world countries, (it is not uncommon for brief blips of haggard haitain refugee families packed on a little dinghy or swollen-bellied african children experiencing drought to conjure comments like, "turn the tv to something less depressing" in our public halls). i've witnessed this innumerable times in my own as well as the white community. i apologize that this comment is offensive to you in its grittiness. i was trying to drive home the point that we should not look at these media images the way we normally do when we see citiizens of other countries in peril. i was attempting to tickle that honest, visceral impression that comes to mind when we (apathetic americans) think of black/brown third world refugees, and am challenging that we remember these images are of our own countrymen and deserve more than the typical sympathetic shrug.
also marta, if someone said the comment you mentioned, i would be neither shocked or upset. unfortunately, i'm used to FAR WORSE than that here in Virginia, in the newsmedia and in daily life.
again, to marta and other citizens of third world countries, i apologize.
tif.
I did not read an apology in here. I will never respond to your posts again.
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Great thread Write.
Jordanspeeps/Tiffany:
i was trying to drive home the point that we should not look at these media images the way we normally do when we see citiizens of other countries in peril. i was attempting to tickle that honest, visceral impression that comes to mind when we (apathetic americans) think of black/brown third world refugees, and am challenging that we remember these images are of our own countrymen and deserve more than the typical sympathetic shrug.
Tif, can you please clarify what you feel and think? Do you think African Americans deserve more of your sympathy than refugees of other countries?
I wonder if instead you’re saying that in general there’s a tendency to see all non-white people as one group, and it would be good if white Americans could see simply other fellow Americans, instead of seeing skin colour and therefore lumping all non-whites as ‘others’ and therefore different?
I think I can see what you’re driving at – changing how you think others’ see things, which is not necessarily how you see things? (I’m hoping so.)
Marta:
I will never respond to your posts again.
Marta, please don’t say ‘never’ until it’s too late (i.e. one party is dead). If we don’t keep talking, if we don’t think we just might be mishearing, misinterpreting, or that the other person isn’t speaking too clearly, well, heck. We might as well shoot each other or start a war. I can see how you might be very angered by Tif’s words but please allow/ask for more clarification? I always think if I am going to be really pissed off, I might as well gather all the other person’s opinions first and make sure I have a concrete reason for losing it completely. Then I generally lose it: at great length and with lots of counter-arguments. Expressing what I deeply believe in generally makes me feel okay eventually, even if I make factual mistakes and get really emotional. I.e. please say what you think and feel...
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Hey, whoa. I've seen more than enough of this now. Marta, it looks to me as though you are bullying people here. I have refrained from commenting on most of the occasions when I have seen it, but I'm going to comment now, because I'm really getting concerned about it.
On the Narcissism and Shame-Dumping thread, a comment was posted which shamed one of the other contributors to the thread - for something entirely gratuitous - and also shamed the thread for even existing because you had no interest in it. Because you removed this comment, I won't go into further details. I'd like to think you realized it was inappropriate and understood why, and most of us have posted first and edited later at some time or other.
On the Hurricane Katrina Apathy thread, when I inquired into the motives behind your post praising a single poster in terms that were quite critical of all the other posters and of the thread topic itself, your response to me was that you "meant applause for [that poster], not insult for [myself]."
This statement may actually have been meant as an apology on some level. However, it reframes the issue as being about one individual's hurt feelings, rather than addressing the real issue: that individual objecting to a social solecism committed towards an entire group of people having a conversation. SF's thread is not a competitive event, and the participants do not need their responses 'graded' by anyone. It was perfectly possible to applaud one poster without putting down all of the others and the topic itself.
Reframing the issue as being about somebody else's feelings, rather than your own actions, (a) puts down the person whose 'hurt feelings' are being substituted for the real issue, and (b) by doing so invalidates both them and the real issue. It goes beyond 'blame the victim'. It's 'invent a victim, then blame them'.
To have read that, and then see such umbrage being taken at Tiffany's explanation and apology, was the last straw. It's past time for this to stop.
Stop bullying people. Obviously it is something you can refrain from. You have posted supportively on many occasions. I am certain that you can continue providing support to one person while refraining from 'ricochet' putdowns and invalidations of others. This is the ideal place to learn how to do that. Nobody here is in competition with you for anything, and everyone here is more than happy to help one another grow.
I wish you well.
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I too had wondered at the LOGOS/ incidental music and who designed them or thought it was appropriate.
( at first during the current Iraq war we saw sentimental music juxtaposed with dress photos of dead soldiers, it seemed so manipulative and thoughtless )
But very few people here in the US seem to call the media sources on these things and the way people's pain and suffering are quickly turned into mass entertainment.
Some of the more responsible reporters are now reporting the other side of things- the many many rescues and brave or thoughtful acts, the kindness from all over the country, all over the world.
But of course- good news paints white as they say, and will never sell as many newspapers or draw as many viewers as reports of horror or panic do.
I've seen many opinions this week, from it being people's own fault for not evacuating to it being George Bush's fault because of tax cuts and funding failures.
I don't think anyone can have predicted the extent of the flooding or inland storm damage though- 90 000 square miles of devastation.
There are many thoughts go through my head for the future- accepting climate change, applying ourselves to conservation and in particular fuel economy. Realising that half the world's population live in horrible conditions like this all the time with no clean regular water or enough food.
But first- is the time for giving essential items, money, our thoughts and prayers, and simply being grateful that we are are safe, and fed and free.
The the people I have admired the most this week are those workers and citizens who simply put their head down, bowed into the storm and got on with things- and I'm sure that was by and far the majority, and the fact we have been shown over and over the few hundred people who behaved badly or fell apart- is not representative of the thousands who patiently awaited rescue or helped each other get through a nightmare.
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Hey, whoa. I've seen more than enough of this now. Marta, it looks to me as though you are bullying people here. I have refrained from commenting on most of the occasions when I have seen it, but I'm going to comment now, because I'm really getting concerned about it.
On the Narcissism and Shame-Dumping thread, a comment was posted which shamed one of the other contributors to the thread - for something entirely gratuitous - and also shamed the thread for even existing because you had no interest in it. Because you removed this comment, I won't go into further details. I'd like to think you realized it was inappropriate and understood why, and most of us have posted first and edited later at some time or other.
On the Hurricane Katrina Apathy thread, when I inquired into the motives behind your post praising a single poster in terms that were quite critical of all the other posters and of the thread topic itself, your response to me was that you "meant applause for [that poster], not insult for [myself]."
This statement may actually have been meant as an apology on some level. However, it reframes the issue as being about one individual's hurt feelings, rather than addressing the real issue: that individual objecting to a social solecism committed towards an entire group of people having a conversation. SF's thread is not a competitive event, and the participants do not need their responses 'graded' by anyone. It was perfectly possible to applaud one poster without putting down all of the others and the topic itself.
Reframing the issue as being about somebody else's feelings, rather than your own actions, (a) puts down the person whose 'hurt feelings' are being substituted for the real issue, and (b) by doing so invalidates both them and the real issue. It goes beyond 'blame the victim'. It's 'invent a victim, then blame them'.
To have read that, and then see such umbrage being taken at Tiffany's explanation and apology, was the last straw. It's past time for this to stop.
Stop bullying people. Obviously it is something you can refrain from. You have posted supportively on many occasions. I am certain that you can continue providing support to one person while refraining from 'ricochet' putdowns and invalidations of others. This is the ideal place to learn how to do that. Nobody here is in competition with you for anything, and everyone here is more than happy to help one another grow.
I wish you well.
Stormchild,
You are entitled to your opinions, you are entitled to read what you like in my posts, you are not entitled to call me names. I hope that it will not happen again.
Marta
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I've gotten all confused. What name did Stormchild call Marta?
I think that this breakdown, similar to some others on other threads, has to do with politics. In the US, we have not learned to talk about politics in polite company (it's considered impolite by a lot of folks, in fact). Maybe no culture does it really well. Actually, I don't know what culture everyone here is from, but I think that in general people get super-angry at the implication that someone else disagrees with them politically, when the same folks don't get so upset about other disagreements. It is a little surprising because we know that there are strong political disagreements right now-- they will show up here, too. I guess it is a little not surprising because politics are values and everyone's going to feel those pretty strongly.
I guess we should either stay away from the topic (or related topics) altogether or find a way to communicate with each other. It seems like a lot of people's anger/whatever could easily be addressed by communication.
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Marta, labeling a person's behavior is not the same thing as calling the person names.
Whenever I see what looks to me like bullying or rudeness, I have the right to describe what I am seeing, explain why I interpret it a certain way, and ask the person doing it to stop. Everyone here has that same right. It's called "setting boundaries".
Consider your nephew. How did you respond when he protested your teasing? Not like this, based on what you posted about it to us in mid August.
I hope this helps clarify the issue for you.
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Marta:
I will never respond to your posts again.
Marta, please don’t say ‘never’ until it’s too late (i.e. one party is dead). If we don’t keep talking, if we don’t think we just might be mishearing, misinterpreting, or that the other person isn’t speaking too clearly, well, heck. We might as well shoot each other or start a war. I can see how you might be very angered by Tif’s words but please allow/ask for more clarification? I always think if I am going to be really pissed off, I might as well gather all the other person’s opinions first and make sure I have a concrete reason for losing it completely. Then I generally lose it: at great length and with lots of counter-arguments. Expressing what I deeply believe in generally makes me feel okay eventually, even if I make factual mistakes and get really emotional. I.e. please say what you think and feel...
Hi. Hello. May I re-wind just a little? Thanks.
Marta, are you ignoring my earlier post? I'm just asking.
If yes, please say so (just once would be fine with me). I won't post to you again if you'd prefer me not to.
If no, let me know.
Either way, I don't enjoy feeling like I'm being ignored :(. Just my feelings of course. Thanks.
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Marta, labeling a person's behavior is not the same thing as calling the person names.
Whenever I see what looks to me like bullying or rudeness, I have the right to describe what I am seeing, explain why I interpret it a certain way, and ask the person doing it to stop. Everyone here has that same right. It's called "setting boundaries".
Consider your nephew. How did you respond when he protested your teasing? Not like this, based on what you posted about it to us in mid August.
I hope this helps clarify the issue for you.
Airing opinions and disagreements are one thing, using my personal information about my life and family members I had shared in a different context to make your point about calling me a bully is quite another. That it should be done in the name of boundary setting. It destroys my very reasons for coming on this board.
Stormchild, you have consistently chosen to read what I did not mean in my posts, and you are entitled to do that. I do not believe that You have the right to call me a bully on a voicelessness board. I do not see that as boundary setting. I see what you are doing as boundary invasion.
Portia, I am from third world and I was deeply hurt when I heard the discussion. It is like being kicked in the belly. It is not something I can explain or wish to explain.
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what is happening here maybe magnifies why we do not always take a collective responsibility for our world and the things which in essence we all share and agree upon- because everything so often reverts to the personal.
I started this thread because I can see narcissism at a higher than personal level- in our organisations and people who are supposed to represent and serve not only us, but our countries and our world.
I don't know how this degenerated into a personal argument, but maybe if we can start here and rein ourselves in and find what is important in this issue? maybe that is a way forward not only for each of us, but for all people.
Even when we hurt- we don't have to lash out, walk away or lose sight of the larger issues.
Love to you all.
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I know it's late and I'm tired, but I didn't understand the last two posts. I'm kind of a fan of specificity, which is tough when people are mad, I know, but...
Write, what exactly do you mean? Marta, what exactly do you mean?
I really do want to know. I am just really lost now. What do you mean "take responsibility for the world" and how are we not doing it? Marta, what did Stormchild misread? Did her tone really bother you and that's what's up here? What did you think about the things she said in her first post?
I hope posting this doesn't make things worse! I have this feeling it's all just a communication problem. It's hard when we are just reading each other with no other clues to intention.
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I'm kind of a fan of specificity, which is tough when people are mad, I know, but...
that's exactly it- when people get angry they cannot see beyond themselves.
I was talking about narcissism on another level, but what is the blockage, emotional, communication, physical even which means we go back to personal individual arguments each time our emotions are engaged?
How does a debate about a national emergency degenerate into personal disagreements?
Maybe if we understand that we can patch up a whole host of political questions...and still retain enough goodwill for friendships!
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Hello all,
I'm sorry to read the miscommunications. Hope it can be sorted out.
I am joining a little late just to say to Write et al that when I read the title of this thread, I immediately thought of some of the reporters pausing to give their personal impressions and thoughts about the disaster etc. They did alert the audience that they were taking their reporter hats off for a moment. But in a poor attempt to convey the solemnity of the occasion, the lead reporter lapsed into self-congratulatory praise for himself and the others, saying what an honor, terrific human beings, blah blah blah, which seemed to make the other reporters uncomfortable. Aren't we wonderful people just for being here and noticing that the people around us are human too? Yuck.
Another yuck moment, although it was outweighed by the content of the story, was when a young couple was assisted by another survivor with a cell phone in locating their premature baby. The reporter was acting like a game show host announcing a grand prize winner!!! Truly weird, but I also got a give a benefit of the doubt that perhaps the reporter was just overcome with the joy of the moment in such grim circumstances.
And though one was "whining" about cellphones etc. I think this communications professional really despaired at the lack of communication and realized that if people could just get in contact with their loved ones, their stress level and angst would reduce considerably. I think he was hinting and begging for some charitable corporation to step up.
Another thought on this issue: there are two kinds of journalists--those that want to be journalists and report stories and facts, and those that want to be talking heads and feed the machine for more airtime. I've had a few J professors point this out to me to their own personal frustration. You all can smell out which ones are which!
As for the prickliness on the board, let's chill and cut each other a little slack. :? Given the circumstances and headlines, I think everyone deserves the benefit of a doubt right now. Thanks, MP
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I have missed journalistic narcissism for the most part, I guess. It may be because I have been watching WWL, where the reporters seem to get their egos out of the way for the sake of the facts or the people they are interviewing, and I love reading the news and blogs. I have no desire to watch a talking head emote about how horrible this disaster is, as if we all need to be told how to feel. It would be much more educational to use that TV time giving us the facts without spin one way or another so that we can understand how more about what happened, how it happened and what can be done so nothing like this ever happens again. I relish what I call the back stories...like about the wetlands, the barrier islands, how NOLA has actually been sinking, how the levees work, why FEMA has not been very effective, and the economic importance of NOLA as a port and oil refining city. I also have learned a lot about the Mississippi gulf coast. For instance, until now, it never occurred to me that building right on the beach might not be a good idea. (Guess I didn't learn anything from the Tsunami...duh.)
Most of the issues are very complex and I hope that the more we educate ourselves as to what is going on, the better we will be able to write our congress people to maybe consider doing things differently than they have in the past. I am a firm believer in writing our elected reps. That's just as important in voting.
I didn't see the reunion of mother and baby, but I think elation on the part of the reporter would be a pretty healthy reaction. Smugness, on the other hand, would be sickening.
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I'm coming in a bit late to this but I wish to join in with my thoughts. Maybe this is none of my business. But I like everyone on this board and it just feels like a big barfight in here. Is it a full moon or something?
Marta, and Tiffany, I did think that Marta's point was valid. While I didn't pick up on it when I read it, once Marta pointed out how badly your comment reflected on 'third world' people (I hate that term) I did see her point. In her shoes I think I would have been offended.
Tiffany, while your your intention was no doubt sincere, your apology was less than clear. Is there any way you could think this through and see if there is any residual negative portrayal in your post? If the details are not in sync with the blanket apology at the end, the apology seems to be lacking.
Marta, I can see why you are hurt but can we keep the lines of communication open?
Everyone else, Tiffany is a big girl and does not need to be protected against anyone's comments, I think. If you think that because she is African American that she cannot have any bias, or that she needs to be protected from any criticism, that's.....simplistic and patronising.
Stormchild, I did think your post was pretty aggressive. And I was a little surprised that you brought up personal details to whack Marta over the head with. Was that fair? If she did something that made you mad in the past, maybe you should have addressed it then, because now it is lumped together with this unrelated issue into a big ball of shit and thrown at her.
Please don't flame me. I'm just trying from a more distant perspective to give a different take on things. I'm being honest and not keeping safely quiet.
an upfront
Plucky
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Write, I get what you are saying-- can we look at the bigger global/cultural picture and how things are presented to us in general, especially about this tragedy. I will say, I don't think anyone here is being narcissistic. It is kind of a loaded word to use here-- I think people are just reacting to each other in a way that makes some amount of sense once it gets all disentangled.
Marta, I'm sorry I misunderstood before-- I think I understand now that you feel as if you asked for an apology, didn't get it, and then were told you were bullying for asking for it. Is that it? That does seem hurtful. I have never noticed how often in this country we use the term "third-world"-- I know I do it. I will stop. It reminds me of the moment in college when I said "Indian giver" to someone and right then I realized what I was saying! It had never occured to me before (in my defense, I was 20 years old). It helps me to hear from you on that and I'd like to know more about where you are from, if you are willing to come back and share with us.
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Oh, and back on track (!) I have noticed how the media, when they get tired of the same old thing, go in one of two directions-- either some tangential story about something (how levees are built or something) or some self-aggrandizing deal of the kind I think inspired this thread-- some just really puffed up deal where the reporter unites one person with one other person and pronounces victory over the tragedy or worse puts a camera in the face of a suffering person for pure media gratification with no real point to make. And then, my pet peeve, the reporter puts the camera on him/herself and says, gravely, "back to you, Jim" as if what they have shown is so special and important that nothing more need be said.
I like the first kind of story, though. It has been really interesting to learn the history of all of this, which I didn't know.
On the good side, there have been so many donations in my town that they can't even take any more right now (we are housing several thousand evacuees).
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I wonder why the media has given the Mayor of New Orleans a complete "pass" on his irresponsible behavior. How could he put thousands of people in the Superdome without food, water, sanitation, or law enforcement? How could he not put anyone in charge there--better yet, a team of people that could not be shouted down or overpowered--and command them to stay put and keep order until help arrived?
It's a very open question as to just how tardy FEMA was in reaching the Superdome, and I am not in any way saying that there's no federal responsibility. But look: FEMA's own materials say that people should be equipped for a 72-hour delay in reaching victims because of damaged/destroyed infrastructure. (And if ever an infrastructure was damaged...) Whatever. FEMA does have to take a hit. However, so do the locals. People went to the Superdome because they were told to. They stayed because there was no place else to go. Wasn't it local government's responsibility to ensure that the official evacuation site was adequately equipped and adequately policed?
I don't want to start the whole argument all over again. But I'm really curious as to what others think about the media's willingness to let the mayor off the hook. I think it's really interesting that he started screaming at Washington and the media just took his lead.
daylily
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sorry for for the delay in posting; my five year old began the very first day of her scholastic life on today and i wanted nothing to detract from this special time for her, but now that she’s off, sweet-looking teacher, too :D, Please allow me to respond to the situation at hand.
portia:
Tif, can you please clarify what you feel and think? Do you think African Americans deserve more of your sympathy than refugees of other countries?
I wonder if instead you’re saying that in general there’s a tendency to see all non-white people as one group, and it would be good if white Americans could see simply other fellow Americans, instead of seeing skin colour and therefore lumping all non-whites as ‘others’ and therefore different?
I think I can see what you’re driving at – changing how you think others’ see things, which is not necessarily how you see things?
this is EXACTLY how i intended to be interpreted! i don’t/didn’t mean any disrespect to people who are displaced in disenfranchised countries, (i hate the expression “third world”, as well) nor did i have any analogy of blacks being “good” and refugees being “bad” in mind when i made that statement. i was attempting to make the demarcation between the IMAGES of Hurricane Katrina currently being viewed in the american media, images we’ve come to associate with dire situations on a distant foreign soil with what catastrophic crisis is happening here in the US right now involving its own citizens and countrymen. i realize now, i should have kept that imagery of the “third world” refugee to myself. and to clarify, absolutely, i think African-Americans deserve more of not just mine but all Americans sympathy, than refugees of other countries, yes!! Charity begins at home.
vunil in some way supports the assumed preface of my earlier provocative point in one of her replies in this thread:
I have never noticed how often in this country we use the term "third-world"-- I know I do it. I will stop.
i was appealing to that gut feeling that displaces you from disenfranchised peoples and attempting to appeal to fellow americans that we, hard, working, tax-paying african-americans, deserve a huge vote of all types of support, despite the impressions of ignorant day care mothers fearful of the images they’ve seen on tv.
and to martyr:
i’ll again admit that my comment re: “third world refugees” was quite thoughtless and again, i apologize, deeply to you and all of my friends living in disenfranchised countries, (i’ve been a volunteer for and have visited several in my life). with regards to your alienating me in the future, you especially, do not have to worry about responding to my posts, as there will be no more.
the best to the rest of you guys
tiffany/jordanspeeps
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I wonder why the media has given the Mayor of New Orleans a complete "pass" on his irresponsible behavior. How could he put thousands of people in the Superdome without food, water, sanitation, or law enforcement? How could he not put anyone in charge there--better yet, a team of people that could not be shouted down or overpowered--and command them to stay put and keep order until help arrived?
It's a very open question as to just how tardy FEMA was in reaching the Superdome, and I am not in any way saying that there's no federal responsibility. But look: FEMA's own materials say that people should be equipped for a 72-hour delay in reaching victims because of damaged/destroyed infrastructure. (And if ever an infrastructure was damaged...) Whatever. FEMA does have to take a hit. However, so do the locals. People went to the Superdome because they were told to. They stayed because there was no place else to go. Wasn't it local government's responsibility to ensure that the official evacuation site was adequately equipped and adequately policed?
I don't want to start the whole argument all over again. But I'm really curious as to what others think about the media's willingness to let the mayor off the hook. I think it's really interesting that he started screaming at Washington and the media just took his lead.
daylily
I've been doing a lot of thinking about this one too, Daylily, and I am not sure that Ray Nagin is going to get a totally free pass. He did get 80% of the people out of NOLA, which is incredible. He apparently felt that most of the folks in the convention center and the Super Dome would not have to stay there long. He did not have the time to get the Superdome and the convention center stocked and totally secured. However, during the evacuation, they were frisking people for drugs and weapons. The breakdown occurred after NOLA flooded and more people poured into the Dome and convention center, when the police were hampered by lack of communications. Nagin had to get the governor's permission to even open the Superdome. After the hurricane, there was a great sense of relief that NOLA had not taken a direct hit...and it wasn't until later that it was realized that the flood walls had been breached and that NOLA was flooding. There has also been the question of why he didn't bus people out of there before the hurricane and he said that he had considered it, but that because of the traffic jams, he felt many people would be trapped on the highways in the eye of the storm. As far as airlifting people, NOLA's airport, which he has no control over was closed. It was a logistical nightmare. On top of that, communications completely broke down after the storm.
One thing we need to look at is the amount of funding that our city governments have for drastic emergencies, much less operating day to day. Cities are badly underfunded. You can have resources within a city, like those school buses that are repeatedly shown, that the city itself might not have access to. Those buses, if the situation in NOLA is like that of most cities, may be owned by a private contracter and employ part-time drivers (who were undoubtedly busy scrambling to help their own families.) The Superdome is another example of a resource that Nagin had to get permission to use. As far as water and adequate toilets, how was he supposed to get that stocked with the traffic moving out of the city in one direction and the airport closed?
Had the flooding not occured, Nagin would be hailed as an unqualified hero. Now some people want to make him out to be the villain. My take on it is that he did the best he could with what he had at the time, so the truth about Nagin probably is not as black or white as people tend to make it out to be. Could he have done more? We won't know until we are sure of what resources he had directly available and how much lead time to use them.
As far as FEMA goes, Bush had declared a state of emergency two days before the hurricane struck. FEMA could have been staged in Texas or the plain states, where the storm wasn't ever going to hit, ready to go as soon as the storm passed. Instead, they came in through the north.
I think that many of our questions will be answered when somebody does a thorough timeline and resource analysis.
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you especially, do not have to worry about responding to my posts, as there will be no more.
Tif are you saying you're leaving the board? I think that would be a shame.
Plucky
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sorry for for the delay in posting; my five year old began the very first day of her scholastic life on today and i wanted nothing to detract from this special time for her, but now that she’s off, sweet-looking teacher, too :D, Please allow me to respond to the situation at hand.
portia:
Tif, can you please clarify what you feel and think? Do you think African Americans deserve more of your sympathy than refugees of other countries?
I wonder if instead you’re saying that in general there’s a tendency to see all non-white people as one group, and it would be good if white Americans could see simply other fellow Americans, instead of seeing skin colour and therefore lumping all non-whites as ‘others’ and therefore different?
I think I can see what you’re driving at – changing how you think others’ see things, which is not necessarily how you see things?
this is EXACTLY how i intended to be interpreted! i don’t/didn’t mean any disrespect to people who are displaced in disenfranchised countries, (i hate the expression “third world”, as well) nor did i have any analogy of blacks being “good” and refugees being “bad” in mind when i made that statement. i was attempting to make the demarcation between the IMAGES of Hurricane Katrina currently being viewed in the american media, images we’ve come to associate with dire situations on a distant foreign soil with what catastrophic crisis is happening here in the US right now involving its own citizens and countrymen. i realize now, i should have kept that imagery of the “third world” refugee to myself. and to clarify, absolutely, i think African-Americans deserve more of not just mine but all Americans sympathy, than refugees of other countries, yes!! Charity begins at home.
vunil in some way supports the assumed preface of my earlier provocative point in one of her replies in this thread:
I have never noticed how often in this country we use the term "third-world"-- I know I do it. I will stop.
i was appealing to that gut feeling that displaces you from disenfranchised peoples and attempting to appeal to fellow americans that we, hard, working, tax-paying african-americans, deserve a huge vote of all types of support, despite the impressions of ignorant day care mothers fearful of the images they’ve seen on tv.
and to martyr:
i’ll again admit that my comment re: “third world refugees” was quite thoughtless and again, i apologize, deeply to you and all of my friends living in disenfranchised countries, (i’ve been a volunteer for and have visited several in my life). with regards to your alienating me in the future, you especially, do not have to worry about responding to my posts, as there will be no more.
the best to the rest of you guys
tiffany/jordanspeeps
(((Tiffany))) Please don't leave the board. I value your contributions. As a multiracial person, I agree that there is a profound tendency in our society to see others who look different from the Caucasian Anglo-Saxon middle class majority as different, other, alien, and therefore somehow bad or a threat. As I said before, racism and classism (and anti-Semitism) are alive and well in our culture.
I know there are phrases that are hurtful, from personal experience. Whenever I hear someone use the N word, I go ballistic. Another expression I absolutely hate is "I jewed him down." I hate to hear any type of racial slur and I don't care whether or not I am a member of the group that is being slurred. It doesn't even have to be a racial, ethnic thing. My hubby has a learning disability that causes him problems with sequencing and I recently found out that someone who he works with was going around calling him "stupid."
I had never thought about the word "refugee" as being pejorative until it was brought to our attention, probably because I consider myself a refugee from my own family. Until Marta pointed it out, I hadn't thought of the words "third world" as hurtful. I have learned something from this. We all can use what's happened here to learn about how we are taught terminology, slogans, or "catch-all" words and how they can sound to others.
So please stay. Both you and Marta have taught me something very important.
A hopeful,
Amethyst
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and to martyr:
uh, tif, was this a typo?
a freudian
Plucky
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Tif-- don't leave! I don't want you to leave.
How is that for an N reason to ask you not to leave?
But, please, don't. I really value your input and your posts.
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Oh, re: the mayor-- in my circles he has been roundly criticized (along with the feds). I don't think he'll get a free pass. I think he messed up a lot in the beginning and then really worked hard to make up for it later. People are liking his hustle later but can't forget how many busses he (didn't!) send to help get people out.
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Plucky, thanks for your accurate understanding of this spin off, it really means a lot to me; just to see that I am being understood somehow takes away all the charge out of my emotional reaction. Is this what is called mirroring that my mom was supposed to have given me? BTW, Vunil, Plucky, I have no problems with the term Third World. A rose is a rose….
Let me also say that I would not be upset if Howard Stern or Ted Kennedy had made such comments – that happens all the time. I was upset precisely because I have come to rather like and trust the virtual personality of Tiffany, so it felt as though someone who ought to understand me wasn’t getting it. As far as I know, in those first two posts we were NOT talking about charity or sympathy, but about construing certain groups of people as criminals, i.e. racial profiling. I read in Tiff’s posts that we should give benefit of doubt to decent black folks, after all they were not third world refugees (hence the term benefit of doubt, which would be valid if we were talking about crime, but not if we were talking of charity or sympathy). BTW, I have NO problems with the term third world refugee. Nor do I have any problems with the view that chariy begins at home. I do however object strongly to what I read as, third world refugees are likely to be common criminal.
Anyhow, let us please just drop this issue now.
As for the message board, I think we have dual goals of being supportive and yet bringing our own perspective to the discussion. Often these goals conflict. At least for me, the scales automatically tip in favor of being supportive as far as personal discussion is concerned, especially when we are dealing with folks in fragile states of mind.
But when it comes to discussion of political or social issues, I unapologetically throw 100% weight on bringing my perspective out. Judging by the number of angries we got on Katrina discussion, I guess that this is true for most people. As for style, I come from the academia, so it is second nature to me to sift through intellectual ideas, evaluate them, and say, hey, this one looks great, may be that one needs incubating, just play with the possibilities. Intellectual honesty is very, very important to me in these discussions. I intend to be myself and let others be themselves.
Tiff, I would love for you to stay.
Signing off until next week,
Marta
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Tiff,
I didn't mean to make you feel hurt or rejected. I was only reacting to what I saw and still do see as a hurtful comment. I can see why it would be a real hot button issue for you too.
What I mean to say is, I love reading your posts because you are always so honest, you always have a point of view, you are warm and articulate, you have a genuine interest in understanding the world around you, and we seem to have moms who are so much like each other.
When I said that I will never respond to your posts again, I was only expressing my hurt, not my rejection of you.
Hugs, Marta
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Marta.
Portia, I am from third world and I was deeply hurt when I heard the discussion. It is like being kicked in the belly. It is not something I can explain or wish to explain.
Okay, I think/feel you’re telling me you don’t want to hear from me? Because I did say I could see how you may be very angry. But that maybe you were mishearing or Tif was mis-speaking or some wires were crossed.
Maybe I didn’t express myself well enough? I’m still not sure where I stand with you though. I feel like you don’t want to engage with me. If that’s correct, please just let me know. I don’t wish to try and engage if the other person doesn’t want to – it’s just a waste of time. Hope you see what I mean? On the other hand, if you don’t see what I mean, let me know. Tell me I’m incomprehensible. I don’t mind. I just like a straight answer. Thanks again.
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think that many of our questions will be answered when somebody does a thorough timeline and resource analysis.
Amethyst...You brought up some good points about Mayor Nagin. I guess in the same vein, I'm wondering why the Governor won't allow the affected counties to be federalized to speed up the relief effort. However, I don't know what that means and I don't know what the implications of federalizing are.. Things seem to be going much better in New Orleans and it will be fascinating to find out what happened and why during the last eight days or so.
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Whew. <-- relief from signing on and reading last few posts.
I am glad Tif and Marta are going to stay.
I have also been thinking that all of the emotion stems from how much we care about those poor victims and how much it hurts to watch what they are going through. All of us feel that in some core part of our being. It is the really important thing and what binds us together. Not to get goopy-- but I really think that is underlying the passion of late on the boards. And since the really deeper empathy is what we share, we ought to be able to get past the other stuff. Speaking for myself, too, of course!
Marta, I think I'm going to avoid third world as a term anyway, just because I agree with you so often it is used in exactly the way you describe. I can't think of a case where it is used routinely to mean something good or even neutral. So to keep tabs on my sensitivity I'll drop it. Anyway, it reminds me of when folks talk about "europe" and "the european sensibility" and "what they think in europe." It's too broad a term, lumps folks together too much.
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think that many of our questions will be answered when somebody does a thorough timeline and resource analysis.
Amethyst...You brought up some good points about Mayor Nagin. I guess in the same vein, I'm wondering why the Governor won't allow the affected counties to be federalized to speed up the relief effort. However, I don't know what that means and I don't know what the implications of federalizing are.. Things seem to be going much better in New Orleans and it will be fascinating to find out what happened and why during the last eight days or so.
I have been glued to WWL, the NOLA station. I gather that Governor Blanco feels that she has excellent local emergency managers already in place, such as Aaron Broussard and Walter Maestri, who along with Ray Nagin, have saved hundreds and thousands of lives. Considering that local managers are familiar with their areas and sensitive to local problems and needs in a way that somebody coming in from the outside would not be, it would make sense to not declare martial law and federalize everything. In a situation like this disaster, if you have people from the outside placed in charge of everything, there would be delays in bringing them up to speed, which could delay relief and recovery even more. I think Blanco is right to keep the power at the local level and to use the resources that the Feds (and others) bring in without putting a bunch of Federal desk jockeys in charge.
My hubby used to work for the Feds (in two different departments) and he mentioned something to me that I hadn't even considered. He said they were constantly reassigned to new areas and territories in a way that was wasteful and irrational. He said,"Somebody in Washington would get a wild hair and decide to merge two offices. Then six months later, they would create four offices out of that merger. Then three months later, they would send our manager to Atlanta and bring in somebody from Tucson." They never saw the people who made these decisions. The higher ups never visited the field. While my hubby worked for the feds, he basically lived in furnished apartments because he never knew where he was going to be assigned next and for how long. It's not like he was working for the FBI or anything like that, either...lol.
I think this is the kind of bureaucracy that we are against. Unfortunately, the culture of Washington has not changed, no matter who is in power. (Of course, I have seen this kind of crazy management in large corporations too.)
I am sure that Blanco has taken this federal tendency to reassign people partially into account. Much better to have locals, who are invested in their own communities, in charge and telling the outside resources coming in, which is not only the feds, what they can do to help.
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Greetings Vunil, Tif, Marta and all
Interestingly enough, we're not the only ones bristling with Third World references. I thought of you all last night as I watched PBS and Richard Rodriguez' essay "The Third World". Unfortunately, there is no transcript of it at the PBS site. Anyway, his point was that we look at impoverished nations and use the term Third World to distance ourselves from those societies (however you want to define that--don't want to get in trouble :?). They showed snippets of a Middle East village, a Mexican border town and then New Orleans. And, as he says, he thought "Third World". The Third World is here. He ruminated about that, then not using the words "social contract" (that's what I thought of) he brought up the fact that we have a social order that leads us to expect that when we flip a wall switch, the light will go on, when we turn a faucet out will come water for drinking or for a bath, when we dial 9-1-1, an ambulance or the police will come.
As another commentator said, government failed.
As a survivor in Biloxi said, I pay taxes. (sound familiar? this brought up US colonial history for me)
We have a government for the greater good of all. Government seems to have broken their contract with the people of the Gulf Coast.
Wanted to pass that along. I probably have this on the wrong thread... :oops:
Amethyst, thanks for keeping us up to date on the local & inside govt perspectives. They also replayed Frontline's The Man Who Knew about John O'Neil who faced daunting bureaucratic culture in the FBI in the fight v. terrorism. My d kept asking me "why didn't they listen to him?" my lame answer is "that's why they're doing this show, he didn't fit in and he didn't do things their way."
MP
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am sure that Blanco has taken this federal tendency to reassign people partially into account. Much better to have locals, who are invested in their own communities, in charge and telling the outside resources coming in, which is not only the feds, what they can do to help.
This makes a lot of sense to me. And I applaud her for taking this stance. Also, for hirine James Witt as a consultant. It seems she has set her political ambitions aside. At first, I thought she may be politicizing for her own sake but it seems like she is taking a pragmatic route.
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Greetings Vunil, Tif, Marta and all
Interestingly enough, we're not the only ones bristling with Third World references. I thought of you all last night as I watched PBS and Richard Rodriguez' essay "The Third World". Unfortunately, there is no transcript of it at the PBS site. Anyway, his point was that we look at impoverished nations and use the term Third World to distance ourselves from those societies (however you want to define that--don't want to get in trouble :?). They showed snippets of a Middle East village, a Mexican border town and then New Orleans. And, as he says, he thought "Third World". The Third World is here. He ruminated about that, then not using the words "social contract" (that's what I thought of) he brought up the fact that we have a social order that leads us to expect that when we flip a wall switch, the light will go on, when we turn a faucet out will come water for drinking or for a bath, when we dial 9-1-1, an ambulance or the police will come.
As another commentator said, government failed.
As a survivor in Biloxi said, I pay taxes. (sound familiar? this brought up US colonial history for me)
We have a government for the greater good of all. Government seems to have broken their contract with the people of the Gulf Coast.
Wanted to pass that along. I probably have this on the wrong thread... :oops:
Amethyst, thanks for keeping us up to date on the local & inside govt perspectives. They also replayed Frontline's The Man Who Knew about John O'Neil who faced daunting bureaucratic culture in the FBI in the fight v. terrorism. My d kept asking me "why didn't they listen to him?" my lame answer is "that's why they're doing this show, he didn't fit in and he didn't do things their way."
MP
Great post, Thanks! ((( Miss Piggy!)))
I have been thinking about the social contract a great deal....and also our taxes, which is how we fund our government corporations and pay for our employees, from the president on down. It may be time for our people to reconsider what kind of employees we hire to run our government corporations and to what purposes we want them to be run. It looks to me that many of our employees have behaved as if they own the government corporations and have allocated many of our corporate resources for purposes other than for good of the people...all of the people.
My senator is George Voinovich. I do not feel as if I am represented. I feel GV represents his own interests really well. I admired his stand on Bolton, but that was it.
I've also been thinking a lot about words like "third world" and how we are at a turning point because of this crisis. Maybe we will all come together as a people over this, putting parties and labels like liberal and conservative aside, and have our own Boston Tea party.
Words like the "ghetto", the "barrio", the "inner city"....those are all distancing words, too. They tend to ostracise the citizens that have to live in those locations, to make "them" other than who we are. Actually, the truth is, "they" are us, or at least I hope most people feel that. So when we see the kind of poverty that we think of as "third world", here in the USA, it is because we have allowed our government corporations to make the citizens of our own domestic "third world" invisible, powerless, impovershed and voiceless. That domestic "third world" exists in every community, not just NOLA, and it is growing. Do we want that to continue? Can we morally live with that as a people?
I am learning so much from these discussions.
I hope I can see that story on John O'Niel sometime.
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ok, everyone-
so what are we all going to do about moving forward?
A minority of people are committing offences and making news...
but what about all the many ordinary people like you and I who just need everyday support?
It is no use the government captivating the media for various stories of success or failure, we want assurance that people will be accomodated even if their stories are neither interesting or favourable.
There are still hundreds of people displaced and living in temporary shelters from last years hurricane season in Florida...they cannot secure support or rebuilding resources...clearly there is a problem in accessing resources. What lessons can be learned right now?
So many people offer help- but it needs to be coordinated locally, then further afield. There needs to be a chain of command and a contingency situation.
Something has failed here- but we are all awaiting instructions.