Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: mudpuppy on September 05, 2005, 02:46:22 PM
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Hello everybody,
I'm having a hard time remembering why it is I visit this board. Some months ago I think it was about Ns and such. Lately it seems to be about nasty political discussions and nasty disagreements about relationships.
If anyone dares to say that America maybe isn't quite so bad as people are saying, they get shouted down and insulted. Tiffany, an African American gal, gets told what to say and what to think about people of color.
I am surprised to learn that as a white american I hate black people and poor people and third world people and Native americans.
Not only does almost none of this have anything to do with Ns and voicelessness, it seems fairly N itself.
This is not something that has only sprung up in the wake of Katrina, either. The tone here has been pretty hostile for some time. I was hoping the exit of cosmic joe/gnostic would help matters but it hasn't done a thing as far as I can tell.
I could go hang around my family if I wanted to listen to this kind of venom. :( :shock:
I'll PM friendly folks and maybe post once in awhile but for the most part I think I'll sit out this funfest and find something a little more enjoyable to do, like hit my thumb with a hammer. :?
mudpuppy
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Mud,
I'm with you all the way, my friend.
Brigid
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hugs, mud.
people are in tremendous pain right now... and people in pain cry out to the Heavens in any and all words that come to them... and in sobs and screams when the words run dry. may God in his mercy know this too is prayer.
i fear for my country as I have never feared before in my life. i fear for friends and colleagues on the gulf coast, and for their loved ones, and their cherished animals.
but i also fear some of my countrymen in a way i never have before, either. i fear 'not counting'. i fear being one of the abandoned ones. this too is voicelessness. perhaps this is what much of the crying out is about.
people in texas have been angels of mercy... and I have heard that, in the areas around Houston, maybe elsewhere too, signs are being posted, saying: It Could Have Been Us.
I think we all feel that, and depending on what we have lived through to date, our reactions to it will differ. Pray for us, and for those who are ragged and homeless, and for those who did not make it... God rest their souls.
maranatha.
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Mudpup--
Please do not hit any part of your body with a hammer!
I think we've just been having some threads that lead to the kind of political stuff that is bothering you. On other threads, everything is great, I think, the same as always. It may be a thread issue, not a board issue.
Please don't leave us! I like hearing from you. I'll try to start more threads (and post to more threads) about personal relationships. I did just start one-- it has politics in it but isn't about politics at all.
Don't you think the threads on personal stuff have been ok? I actually haven't minded the political threads and haven't found them particularly nasty, but then I'm in the mood for political discourse right now. But I do think we should try to keep that stuff out of the other threads. I'll try to do that.
cheers,
Vunil
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id just like to see people not take the step of defining disagreement as 'nastiness'.
that is a mistake many grew up with and that -definitely- imo contributes to voicelessness.
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Not only does almost none of this have anything to do with Ns and voicelessness, it seems fairly N itself.
Jeepers! I had the same thought myself ... and I kept thinking about it this afternoon. I finally thought that there are always certain things that push our defensive buttons and always, until we learn another route, our prescripted way of responding? One thing I am learning is to just recognize and acknowledge when I am defensive and to just think about it for at least 24 hours!. In my thread on "I don't like my attorney", I am still trying to wallow through what is really going on between her and me. I'm beginning to think, after all the kind input from the folks here, that iit is me and my prior experiences. She is doing a good job and I am learning to deal with my fears and defensiveness. I said it there and I'm truly beginning to believe and hopefully "live" it: When we feel defensive or all to willing to jump for the jugular within micro-seconds, we need to think twice, three times. Maybe longer. Don't we get through most of our good days by being thoughtful and kind and having the security of knowing that we have time to think about our reactions to others and the basic goals of a supportive relationship? Being in conflict became a habit in my marriage...I think it actually sustained it for a number of years. It was just a survival technique...What I am saying is not meant to be judgemental....only a thought. I think the controversy here sparked by hurricane Katrina is a very emotional one which could lead us to learn about ourselves. But, please don't delete posts....I have enough worries about my short term memory without being able to find a post that everyone seems to refer to! Take care
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id just like to see people not take the step of defining disagreement as 'nastiness'.
that is a mistake many grew up with and that -definitely- imo contributes to voicelessness.
I definitely agree with this. I've been pondering mudpup's post and I think I have two reactions-- I want him to feel happy and a part of the board because I like him, and I am sorry that things have seemed nasty or been upsetting-- that isn't something we should aim for. But I also think the discussions we have had have been fruitful, interesting, and educational. Not only for their content, but for the chance they have given us to disagree with each other, if that makes any sense. Probably most of us aren't perfect at it (I am personally not within shouting distance of perfect at it) but this is a place to try it out, try to voice what we feel and get better. It's one of the few places where I even "meet" people who disagree with me politically and who have such a different culture from me. I have gotten angry and wanted to do the internet equivalent of leaving the room, but people called me back and it was better and I think I learned from that.
Something else occured to me that might be totally offbase (and please let me know if you think so!) but people who are happy with the current government in the US have less to be upset about politically in their everyday lives because... the people they are happy with control all three branches of the government. Those of us who are less happy may be feeling more day-to-day raw and beleaguered by all of it. So we seem more rough around the edges, more willing to bring the political issues up, more reactive, less nice in some sense. I think there is some sociological word for this, as a matter of fact, but I forget what it is.
I just remember when Marta was telling me that my angry reactions were actually other emotions channelled into anger, and I kept thinking-- but what if I actually do think things are screwed up and unfair? Shouldn't I be angry? To her I am sure I just looked like I was overreacting. It's all perceptual...
But I think we can work it out. Please, no one leave-- I like everyone here and want them to stay.
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I guess I should reply to my own thread.
Brigid,
Thanks.
Stormy,
Uh, maybe, but I doubt it. As I said the coarseness and hostility predates any pain people may be feeling over Katrina.
vunil,
Its not political stuff that bothers me, its the tone of the political stuff. Some people here do not hesitate to paint any opposing viewpoint as racist, homophobic, rich people desiring to eat the young of the poor, ad nauseum. And that's to be taken as just friendly give and take I guess.
But I shudder to think of the firestorm were I to suggest that anyone disagreeing with me was an evil Christian hater who only feigned concern for the poor because they really want to go on the dole themselves and they're really closet racists who just want to keep black people down on Uncle Sam's plantation.
I'm kind of tired of the double standard that my MOTIVES and therefore character are always debatable but never anyone who disagrees with me. Its a form of intellectual bullying and displays a lack of confidence in their position. Thats why it strikes me as N like.
And I'm tired of incivility, and not just here.
I'll try to start more threads (and post to more threads) about personal relationships.
You're about to have a baby. Please don't spend your time trying to fix a problem I perceive. You've got more important things to do.
d's mom,
I'm not labeling disagreement as 'nastiness', just the name calling and questioning of people's motives, rather than reasonable discussion of topics.
And I'm not saying everyone has done it by any means.
But it has happened enough lately that I question the value of the board to me.
I'm not sure how I'm contributing to voicelssness of others when I am the one who said he was going to post less. :? If others enjoy name calling and PC conformity, more power to 'em, just include me out.
dogbit,
I'm not deleting any posts, just cutting down on new ones. :P
mud
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Emotional survival! :D :D :D (((Mud)))
Mud, people have to sling stuff at each other sometimes. Better here than with actual baseball bats eh? I think so. Much better here (thanks to Dr G). And here we get to re-read our stuff, maybe even learn from ourselves and others! I made a huge gaff the other day about insurance. Ooops. Oh well. I learned something. Good. I want to keep learning stuff. I want to learn when I'm wrong, totally out of order, thinking in a screwy way, or having a paranoia attack. Here I get to learn that. Fantastic.
Life is difficult and complex. That's how it is.
Perceived nastiness hurts, okay. But why? What hurts most and why?
I have to talk about Katrina Mud, it hurts. I got so mad. I'm still mad about it. I have to talk about it. I can't sit on it, ignore what's been happening.
I used to flip out when people argued because from age 0 to 3 my parents argued constantly. I can't even remember it but I know they did it. I've had to learn to handle it. I've had to learn that conflict doesn't mean someone (me) has to die. Conflict is part of life. It's how we learn quickest. And some of my best friends are ones I've had huge rows with (those rows were the quickest ways to see both the differences and the similarities).
Why does this stuff make you uncomfortable Mud? It seems to. I'm asking you straight now. I don't want to argue, I'm curious. Tell me darn it!! hahaha :D joke. You don't have to tell me anything. :)That's the beauty of the board. We can read what we want to, ignore what we don't want to - er - engage with. I guess you know what I mean. But I'm kinda worried by your post. You're saying something, but I'm wondering if there's more to say. Want to say it? How are you feeling?
When some of my comfort zones start to crumble, I get scared and panic. And I have to talk about it. How about you?
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Oh bugger, I posted out of synch. Sink. Synk. Cink. Spelling?
But I shudder to think of the firestorm were I to suggest that anyone disagreeing with me was an evil Christian hater who only feigned concern for the poor because they really want to go on the dole themselves and they're really closet racists who just want to keep black people down on Uncle Sam's plantation.
Mud, who the heck would you say that to? Have I missed something....??? (It's quite probable...as ever...)
And I didn't know the word 'dole' is used in the US. Well!
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Portia,
Not to respond for Mud, but I think that statement was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek.
The correct spelling I believe would be sync.
Brigid
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dogbit,
I'm not deleting any posts, just cutting down on new ones.
I wasn't talking about you, silly dog!
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I'm not deleting posts. Takes me too long. I'm only up to post number 32 or something and the Word document holding those posts is toooo looooooong. Haha! That's so ridiculous.
Brigid:
Not to respond for Mud, but I think that statement was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek.I still want to know what it's about! Okay, maybe not my business but I feel there's something that needs to go BOOM. Sooner it's done the better in my book. And I'm going to bed now, so feel free to go BOOM while I'm asleep. It won't wake me, will it? Hey we'll all live. Here, on the board. We do get to carry on living, whatever we say here. Hopefully.
The correct spelling I believe would be sync.
Thanks Brigid! :D
Question. I came out of the shadows and decided to let it show my name when I'm online. And it shows my name first in the queue. Because I registered first out of the users I last looked at? How ageist is that? I may as well go into hiding again. I really don't like the member categories either. Who cares how many posts someone made? Night all.
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Oh bugger, I posted out of synch. Sink. Synk. Cink. Spelling?
Cinque? [Hint: count 'em!]
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hahahahahahahahahaha! :D :D :D
Nice one Storm. Love it! night night, Portia
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Hi Portia and Brigid,
Not to respond for Mud, but I think that statement was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek.
The idea that my tongue was planted in my cheek just demonstrates the double standard that exists. For me to ascribe the same motives to people and ideas on the left that are routinely applied to people and ideas on the right, I had to have been joking right? Everybody knows people on the right are quite often evil while people on the left may be wrong occasionally but they never have evil motives. Not criticising you Brigid, just using what you said to make my point.
Mud, who the heck would you say that to?
I wouldn't say it to an individual on the board. I would ascribe it to a group or an idea or a political leader, the implication being that those on the board who are in the group or believe in the idea or support the leader are guilty as well.
Your question perfectly embodies the double standard that exists. You take it is as a given that no one of the left who espouses concern for the poor or different races or criticises Christians could possibly have the underlying motives I describe. And yet it is perfectly acceptable for people to remark on how racist, hateful and morally bankrupt someone from the right is or our entire country is.
Its not even remarked on when the President is accused of hating or at best being indifferent to black people because the federal response to Katrina was slow. He's a Republican, of course he's a racist. Its a given. But if Bill Clinton stands by and twiddles his thumbs while two million Sudanese and another couple of million Rwandans are slaughtered, we can say he was lazy, but we can't possibly say he was a racist because hey, he's a Democrat.
The fact that you can't even see that the double standard exists is nine tenths of the problem.
Why does this stuff make you uncomfortable Mud?
Because it is unpleasant, rude and accusatory. It is like arguing with an N. They can make any outrageous comment they choose, accuse us of any despicable motive they want, but we are expected to remain reasonable. If we respond in kind then all hell breaks loose. Its the same double standard. Like I said, I have a family wherein I have to bite my tongue. Why come here for an imitation when I can have the real thing?
I would think it would be glaringly obvious why it makes me uncomfortable. :?
mud
PS. That was kind of a combo clever-groaner pun Stormy.
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Its a given. But if Bill Clinton stands by and twiddles his thumbs while two million Sudanese and another couple of million Rwandans are slaughtered, we can say he was lazy, but we can't possibly say he was a racist because hey, he's a Democrat.
Yup. I wonder how many people are aware of the number of lives he wasted because politically, it did him no good. Like, when he couldn't even leave the ramp of the plane to acknowledge the Africans he was supposed to be "helping" lest he might actually come into physical contact with them. Bill Clinton is THE reason I changed parties. It was always about him. Ugh,,,,what a horrible person. Sorry, I digress from the original goal of this board :shock:
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And yet it is perfectly acceptable for people to remark on how racist, hateful and morally bankrupt someone from the right is
I don't think anyone implied that someone from this list was all of these awful things, and certainly no one said it outright. Honestly, I just don't think people made those statements. I know you may be hearing them, but I don't think anyone said them. There were accusatory statements on both sides (I think I was the recipient of the most accusatory statements, actually, if you look back-- I think I was the only person directly attacked) but nothing got anywhere close to the above.
And of course people say Bill Clinton is/was evil. An entire cottage industry built up over trashing him-- that's where political talk radio came from. There are as many books acusing him and his wife of absolutely horrible crimes as there are about Bush, if not more. On this board and elsewhere people who criticize the government are accused of not loving their country, of being sympathetic with our enemies, of not respecting our troops, etc. It does go both ways. Here people who felt NO was in part Bush's fault were accused of not being able to feel sadness, of "bashing," of using the tragedy for political gain, and of not caring about the rescue and what matters.
So I guess I don't agree with the premise, sorry! I know it's what you are feeling, but if people really thought those horrible things about you they wouldn't be reaching out to you now.
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Yup. I wonder how many people are aware of the number of lives he wasted because politically, it did him no good. Like, when he couldn't even leave the ramp of the plane to acknowledge the Africans he was supposed to be "helping" lest he might actually come into physical contact with them. Bill Clinton is THE reason I changed parties. It was always about him. Ugh,,,,what a horrible person. Sorry, I digress from the original goal of this board
Just a clarification question: Is the post above ok, Mudpup? Because it is WAY more personally acusatory than anything I have read about Bush here. The closest people have come to accusing Bush has been to say that the federal government may have been slow to respond because of race. The entire federal government. And every major newspaper, including conservative ones, has raised this possibility, so it is not personal to us here on this list. The post above implies that Clinton does not want physical contact with black people (amazingly, since his best friend was black and he now lives in Harlem).
Is that ok? I'm just asking because I do see a double standard here for what kinds of things people are allowed to sa, depending on which side of the aisle they are on.
Ok, I'll stop. But I couldn't help noting this.
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Hi Mudpup and everyone,
This is a great discussion about influence overall and whose opinion "wins". I'll bet we could open it up even wider if we keep going. It all boils down to "whose side are you on?" One videographer made it his life's mission to show the same type of discourse coming out of both the Jewish and the Palestinian political camps. His point is "you're both doing/saying the same thing. How is it better for you to do what you accuse the other of doing?"
I am reminded of a movie quote from Patton. Patton explains to Bradley how his troops feel about him (Patton) saying "'He may be an SOB but he's our SOB."
If I can have one more...years ago I saw a great NYer cartoon. Sort of a caveman motif. A little caveman holds up his hand with conviction saying "It is so!" the surrounding cavemen say, "No way!" "It is not" "Says who?" etc.
Then a giant caveman rises up over the horizon in the background. "IT IS SO!" The surrounding cavemen say "Oh yes!" "It's true!" "Verily!" "You betcha!"
These moments kinda sum it up for me. :? MP
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Once again I'm coming in late but here I am with my possibly unpopular opinion. I'm glad we are all so passionate about something. I am pretty sure we will not let it destroy our community.
Mudpup, I think there are different ways to deal with conflict.
- avoidance. The "I'm taking my ball and going home, and I'll only talk to a few people who have been nice to me..." I've used this one. Looks like you are familiar with it as well.
- attack. My favorite is sarcasm and sneering. Also has been extensively used by yours truly. In fact, one of my favorites.
- My new favorite, proposed by Amethyst. Turn around and look at your partner in conflict. Draw out the real reason for his/her zealous opposition. Locate the buttons. Find out your own reasons. Agree to disagree.
Thanks Amethyst! I'm not even having a crisis and I learned something helpful and breakthroughlike! Thanks for sharing your experience with your dad.
a newly grateful for the board
Plucky
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Forgot to mention why I think this is so triggering for most of us. So many n victim issues arose from the plight of the survivors.
- fairness. this was brought up on the attorney thread.
- abandonment.
- failure to have basic needs met.
- lack of important information or any control concerning one's destiny.
- being forced to witness violence, neglect, suffering, with no way to help or escape.
- making desperate requests and not being heard by anyone.
We're up here to use our voices. Let's not try to shut anybody up.
Plucky
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hugs, mud.
people are in tremendous pain right now... and people in pain cry out to the Heavens in any and all words that come to them... and in sobs and screams when the words run dry. may God in his mercy know this too is prayer.
i fear for my country as I have never feared before in my life. i fear for friends and colleagues on the gulf coast, and for their loved ones, and their cherished animals.
but i also fear some of my countrymen in a way i never have before, either. i fear 'not counting'. i fear being one of the abandoned ones. this too is voicelessness. perhaps this is what much of the crying out is about.
people in texas have been angels of mercy... and I have heard that, in the areas around Houston, maybe elsewhere too, signs are being posted, saying: It Could Have Been Us.
I think we all feel that, and depending on what we have lived through to date, our reactions to it will differ. Pray for us, and for those who are ragged and homeless, and for those who did not make it... God rest their souls.
maranatha.
(((Stormchild))) This is where I am coming from too. I would like to work to see that nothing like this loss of life and a destruction of almost an entire city, which could have been prevented, ever happens again. NOLA, as many people are now discovering, is vital to the nation as a whole, so previous argument by some folks that it should not be rebuilt is totally bogus. I'm sure we would also rebuild San Francisco and LA should the big earthquakes happen.
Sadly, FEMA has not yet gotten into or dropped aid to the backwoods areas of Mississippi yet. People on their last gasp there too.
My anger is because our government seems to put its priorities backwards. Had the money been spent to build up the levees and replenish the wetlands around the boot of Louisiana, part of this disaster could have been averted. Instead of creating less bureaucracy, by putting FEMA into the Department of Homeland Security and firing anyone who disagreed with the President, FEMA became much less functional and more beaurocratic. Because of our dependence on fossil fuels, we have an unwinnable war in Iraq, fuel shortages and global warming. My fright and anger is because we are living under an administration that seems to be irrational, anti-science, very Darwinian in its social policies, and seems to operate with the assumption that the ultimate goal of society is profits. You can talk about compassion, but does a compassionate country have anyone living below the poverty line, which is ridiculously low anyway? Is anything going to change or is it going to be more of the same? My biggest fear is that there is going to be a whole bunch of rhetoric and kissy face among the movers and shakers and then we will be right back to business as usual. Our society is non sustainable the way it is. Change is going to be painful and complex, but to put off change is just going to make it more painful later. What I'm saying is not a left-right thing, bigguv-small guv, state vs fed, thing either.
I am someone that spends lots of time getting facts that are pertinent to whatever situation arises, and what was done in Rwanda or by Bill Clinton (or by the French) has nothing to do with this situation, as far as I can see. When someone throws out those kind of arguments, the best I can do is say,"What does that have to do with this situation?" GWB certainly wasted no time in enlisting Bill Clinton to help him out of this mess. I am no Clinton worshipper by the way, but I don't think he was totally inept, which is what my gut, my heart and my head tells me about our current president. A good boss does not fire competent people who are experts that disagree with them....they find out why the expert disagrees. A good boss does not put somebody's college roommate who used to run an association for judging horseshows into a position of running an organization like FEMA. Turns out the guy that Bush fired, Mr. Witt, was correct. Bush looks like a classic N or worse, and I am frightened for the safety, wealth and health of our nation as a whole. And since the US is so powerful, I'm rather worried about the world too.
Another thing that I have never been able to understand is why people that are all for as little government and paying as little tax as possible are in favor of having a big army with lots of military spending???? Isn't the army federal big government????
I watched PBS tonight. They had a special on Ben Franklin, which reminded me that of his aphorisms in Poor Richards Almanac was "A stitch in time saves nine." A few billion a few years ago could have saved untold costs and many lives today. I hope they spend the money now.
I believe that lost faith in the truthfulness and intentions of our leaders and uncertainty for our future as a people are painful for everyone to deal with. That's what is coming up on this board. It's certainly coming up for me. I think we need to talk about it and also to be respectful of eachother in our individual and collective attempts to find solutions. If we don't ask the questions and point out the lies and discrepancies, we won't find any answers at all....just like home.
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SORRY I was so harsh earlier :( I have NO idea how to talk about this stuff without becoming some kind of lawyerly burn the roof off storm the barn doors arguer. Most of my political discussion, especially over e-mail/boards, has been confined to groups where everyone agrees. It is really good for me to be here and to learn from you guys, and I hope that mudpup and dogbit speak to me again!
Something is beyond triggering for me in this topic (politics and the current administration especially). I even started a thread about it. Instead of feeling like one more topic, to me it feels like I have to throw down everything else that I may care about and ... I am not sure how to describe it. I keep thinking things like-- this is just like the civil rights movement in the 60's! (I always think that would have felt terrible not to have been involved in that, to have stood by) or this is just like germany in the 30's (how cliched is that? but when I was growing up movies and books about the holocaust were rampant and they had a huge effect on me). Or, "this is just like Watergate!" (I would hate to be someone who defended Nixon until the end-- for some reason that idea really bothers me).
Why I think this about posts on a board, I do not know. It does not feel N but rather like some sort of civic duty or something. The N part, I guess, is that I think what I post here matters, and I choose this false mattering over what does matter to me here, which is the comraderie and advice and wisdom.
Does anyone else have this problem? Do most of us have it? I don't think I'm the only one who has it :? :oops: Or I may be! I know I am not the only one who has it out there in the world, because I have been at many social gatherings where someone goes off on a political rant and then the whole table/group is silent afterwards, staring at each other! Do we just need to learn to talk about this stuff because in a lot of western cultures people don't? Say what you want to about France, they are much better about political discussions than we are. One reason I love it there is you can have a very knock-down-drag-out discussion of politics and it is completely allowed and everyone is friends afterwards, if not better friends. Not that it helps them elect really fantastic leaders or anything :)
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This discussion brought out strong feelings in us and I have no problem airing it out here. I think part of our voicelessness has been an inability to express our feelngs, particularly when the situation has a lot of emotions. IMO, some posters made political slams or slams against the US. IMO, some of these posters would probably take the same tact in any political discussion. The challege for me was to attempt to express my opinions without totally alienating others. I dont know if I did that, but it was the intent.
I would have liked to express myself more pointedly with some of the slammers, but occasionally just let it go. We are all not going to agree. My point that some people use emoting about disasters or other "situations" to avoid dealing with their own issues, seemed to have been lost in the discussion or considered as an excuse for why people didnt agree with me. Some will always rail against the establishment and some will be scared off of a heated discussion. I believe it is possible for it all to be related to voicelessness.
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I have been actively avoiding getting into any more of these "political" discussions, but I felt the need to say one more thing on this thread.
First, I never started any of the political rhetoric, but only responded to comments that were made, that strongly go against my own philosophies. I never intended to personally attack anyone or their beliefs, but only to present that not everyone here feels that way. After I was personally attacked on another thread I just walked away even though I was very tempted to respond in kind.
I came to this board as a respite from the conflict that existed in my life, not to find a place that causes me more anxiety. I had enough of that throughout my childhood and I certainly don't need it now.
I wish you all well.
Brigid
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Good morning all:
((((((Mud)))))), I haven't read the threads being discussed here yet but I just want to ask:
Are you ok? I mean that in a real way, not as some insult. These discussions seem to have really upset you and I just hope you...are ok.
When it comes down to it these are only words on a screen. I just hope you are ok.
(((((((Brigid)))))), I haven't read the thread where you were attacked yet either (or maybe it's the same thread??). I'm sorry that happened and I hope you are ok too.
Sometimes we lash out at the wrong people. I hope if that happened, the person/s who did so will appologize to you and take responsibility for their behaviour.
I came to this board as a respite from the conflict that existed in my life, not to find a place that causes me more anxiety.
I'm sorry this is going on. The world is cruel sometimes, including the cyber world. It makes me feel anxious too. Makes me want to cyber-clobber some people (picture hairy cave-like-woman weilding big meaty club, drooling, barefoot....approaching with teeth bared/born? :D Spitting obsenities). Ofcourse, that picture looks nothing like me but I just had to throw that in. Never mind, I just mean that I wish there was a way for peace in the world...including here....in some way without all this banging about of clubs.
Peace to you Brigid and Mud and all. Political shmitical. We're here because we're trying to process the pain we've all endured/withstood/survived/buried/experienced/are/aren't aware of/need to voice/whatever. We're not here to inflict more of it, are we? :?
That's what I think the point of this board is...a place to speak of it.
I don't like it when that speaking is against other people here.
If you're doing that....or you did it.....wake up.....say you're sorry......accept responsibility for acting inappropriately and get on with speaking of it... not displacing it.
Why come here for an imitation when I can have the real thing?
Bite your tongue Mud!!! ( :D just kidding again).
Ya why? That's a good question. Practice makes perfect? Some people get their kicks that way?
Some may not be aware of the effect they are having? Some speak first....think later?
Just words on a screen Muddy. Don't let 'em really harm you, Ok? Or really upset you. On the end of the words are keys with fingers (and in my case toes) clicking away attached to hands, arms, shoulders, kneck, head, etc of some....person.
That person is here for why again? To speak of what?
Are we so wrapped up in our own pain that we can't remember the next person is too?
I can do that ( :oops: :oops: :oops:) some days. Other days, I'm sorry for that.
Sela
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(((((mudpuppy)))))
I think I understand what you're saying. I have experienced it myself, although not in this forum, but I'm still new.
It's interesting in a psychological sense. Some people seem able to respond to differing points of view with civil discourse, and be respectful. This does not mean they don't have feelings, they do. But their feelings don't rule their words. Some people react emotionally to those who don't agree with them. They feel threatened when asked to defend their words logically. But their words can be caustic and hurtful, not because they are true, but because of the motive behind them. These reactions are meant to shut you down.
When you are called racist, homophobe child-eater, (and you KNOW you are none of these things) you are being told "SHUT UP! You don't deserve to HAVE A VOICE, because I DON'T LIKE what your voice is saying."
I agree with you that it is very N. But at the core of N is a terrified child. I have one myself. Maybe a lower case n is more appropriate.
Being new, I'm not sure who shut you down- or tried to- but to them:
It is not good to cast off your responsibility for your hurtful words by saying "Hey, sometimes I say things...." It sound so much like "Get over it already!" which to me means 'I don't CARE about you'.
Okay, I'll get off the soapbox already.
I'm very sensitive to being shut-down, shut-up, shut-out. It's unjust. It hurts so much.
Thanks for the forum :shock: Huh, I see this symbol means shock... I thought it looked kind of nerdy- glasses and all (that's how I see myself).
V
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Hi vunil,
When dogbit says Bill Clinton is personally corrupt she is insulting him personally. I have no problem with that, just as I have no problem with anyone calling George Bush a liar.
If dogbit had said he couldn't leave the ramp because liberals talk about concern for Africans but they really couldn't care less because deep down they're all closet racists, then it would not have been OK. It is at that point a stereotype and an insulting comment meant to condemn and silence civil discourse and is no longer a personal insult but is meant to put on the defensive and shame anyone who holds that position.
I believe I have gone down a rabbit trail on this double standard issue anyway. My original post was about the general tone here, and I stand by it. In fact I have to say the responses, for the most part, reaffirm my original post.
I hear many people telling me why the tone is hostile, angry and caustic and why that is a good thing, but I don't hear many saying 'you know what, maybe we could express ourselves a little more respectfuly and try to restrain our passions a little in the interests of civility.'
If someone goes on a rant about the Ns in their lives, I think we can all agree that is not hurting civil discourse here. At least I think we can.
If someone goes on a rant about how evil and corrupt American society is or how George Bush's or Bill Clinton's policies and ideas are not just wrong but truly evil then how is a reasonable conversation possible? Either those who disagree will respond in kind, in which case we have a mindless, destructivel free-for-all, or those who disagree have to bite their tongues and silence themselves while the others rant and rave.
I'll say it one last time, I can get that in the home-cookin, in-your-face version with my family, why come here for it?
You know from when I first came here that I don't avoid disagreements or arguments as long as they have a point other than insulting or shouting down the opposing viewpoint.
In fact, as I think about it, the very first conversation I had with you was regarding all of us not painting each other with broad brush strokes of blame and shame. And your comments then were not directed directly at me either but at a larger group.
Your response then was to admit the reasonableness of what I had to say and agree that we should all try and be respectful even when disagreeing.
Here we are six months later having the same conversation, but the overall response this time seems to be 'yeah, we're having a donnybrook here, what's it to ya?'
Sela,
My point is not so much about direct personal insults, but the tone and edgy atitude here. I have been directly insulted in the past, but that I don't really mind so much. I can shoot back when that happens. There is a general incivility in the threads that concern politics and there is a 'quick to be offended or offend' sensibility in the other threads. Not every one, by any means, but enough to make me wonder why I'm here.
I'm not looking for an apology, just a little thought as to how what we say is perceived by others and whether it can be seen as insulting or harmful to others.
I guess it comes down to this. If this board is a place for people to discuss and heal from the Ns in their lives, with some sensible and friendly off topic disagreements tossed in as well, then its useful to me and maybe I can be of a little use to it.
If its for endless cycles of simmering hostility and a subtle conformity to standards of thought then maybe its more useful to others than me.
Perhaps if I back off for a time and restrict myself to reading only those threads which I find profitable I'll feel differently.
After all why should I leave just because Moveon.org, Hillary Clinton and Paul Krugman (and by extension all those who generally agree with them) are dishonest, intolerant, closet racists and bigots who detest Christians and morality in general and only want to keep poor white folks, African Americans and Hispanics down on the government plantation so they'll keep voting Democratic...... Hey this is kind of fun. :P
mud
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Ok, so today I noticed that every single board I ever check (and some I rarely check) is having the same problems/discussions/issues as this board! Even one I read that is only a way for folks to meet each other for a beer (I like reading it even though obviously I'm not meeting them any more for beer) has exploded this morning in a big political discussion. One I read that is only about home decorating had the exact same thing. Almost carbon copy.
So, it's mostly the topic. It is getting folks all riled up.
Nice to know it isn't just us :)
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Vunil,
So, it's mostly the topic. It is getting folks all riled up.
Unfortunately I felt this way prior to Katrina.
BTW, just to be clear, you've never been unreasonable or hard to get along with. :D
mud
PS. Thanks voxanne for your post. Don't let my disappointment stop you from enjoying the board. There is a lot of good stuff here still.
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'yeah, we're having a donnybrook here, what's it to ya?'
What's a donneybrook? I honestly don't know.
(seriously)
I'm sorry it seemed as if anyone was saying these horrible things about you or others-- I didn't notice anything like that, to be honest, but if it felt like that to you then it's worth addressing. Next time it happens, would you be willing to quote the particular line that set you off and have a specific conversation about it? I learn a lot when people do that, either about me or other people. I just don't seem to have a mind that works on generalities-- I need specifics. Some of this (maybe all of it) is probably just communication issues. I don't mean that we might not genuinely disagree, but somehow I get the impression that isn't what bugs most of us-- it's not like we just learned that the country is divided. It doesn't bug me, either, at all-- what bugs me is miscommunication followed by general dissatisfaction that can't be linked back to the actual incident.
Just to go to a personal place with this, my mother used to sit us down and lecture us for hours about how we were "inconsiderate" and "sometimes in life we all have to do things we do not want to do, if we are going to be responsible people" and "selfish people never make it in life" and ON AND ON AND ON and it was personally devastating. She never told us what we did! Finally later we would find out we left our shoes under the television or something or maybe something worse (the same lecture happened with every sin). So, it is triggering to me to get told I messed up, or might have, but not to be told the exact reason why-- the specific behavior. And sometimes I didn't even do the specific behavior! But she got so into her insults that it became beside the point. Oh, man, just having that flashback is giving me hives...
Not that anyone here is being like her-- not at all! I actually don't think anyone here has acted N at all. I think people have really tried to communicate and understand each other, MUCH more than on any other board I am on. I'm just trying to explore how the whole thing feels and why it might be triggering, and I'm trying to improve :) Because Mudpup you are sweet but I know that I must have caused some of this...
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Forgot to mention why I think this is so triggering for most of us. So many n victim issues arose from the plight of the survivors.
- fairness. this was brought up on the attorney thread.
- abandonment.
- failure to have basic needs met.
- lack of important information or any control concerning one's destiny.
- being forced to witness violence, neglect, suffering, with no way to help or escape.
- making desperate requests and not being heard by anyone.
We're up here to use our voices. Let's not try to shut anybody up.
Plucky
Hi Plucky, What you listed are the things that occurred in our families of origin and are very triggering for us. They are also triggering for people that grew up in healthy homes. I try not to use the word "normal" because what is normal may not be healthy, as a therapist pointed out to me.
I'll add a few more to the list.
- Being told that one's perceptions of traumatic events are incorrect.
- Being told that what happened is not so bad.
- Being told it is not ok to talk about it, to ask questions and to look for real solutions.
- Being lied to by parents or persons in authority.
- Being told that being a victim is the fault of the victim.
- Being told that it is not ok to have feelings and thoughts about the trauma.
- Being told that it is important to maintain the status quo and "not rock the boat."
- Being told by another witness to the trauma that since it didn't affect them, it shouldn't affect you.
- Receiving "assistance" for the trauma that doesn't address the roots of the problem, like getting therapy that helps one
become "better adjusted" (in my case, I got therapy that taught me how to be a silent victim that looked great on the
outside) or being institutionalized (in the case of d's mom, who ran away from abuse) for survival behavior.
- Scapegoating of the victim.
- Being told by people who have not been traumatized, or who perhaps are benefitting from the trauma, that those who
perceive the trauma as traumatic are disloyal, crazy, wrong-headed, and need to be silent.
- Being pressured to keep family secrets.
- Being prevented from receiving necessary assistance to deal with the trauma.
For instance, here is a message from the Department of Environmental Quality. Instead of doing the right thing, they are going to do the quickest and cheapest thing, which will pollute Lake Ponchartrain or kill the wetlands. I felt triggered when I read this article because of the list above. I am upset that the media didn't nail this guy down on the fallacies of his reasoning. Somebody should have questioned him.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050906/ts_nm/water_dc
"How much water New Orleans holds is open to question.
Van Heerden estimates it is billions of gallons. LSU researchers will use satellite imagery and computer modeling to get a better fix on the quantity.
Bio-remediation -- cleaning up the water -- would require the time and expense of constructing huge storage facilities, considered an impossibility, especially with the public clamor to get the water out quickly.
Mallett said the Department of Environmental Quality was in the unfortunate position of being responsible for protecting the environment in a situation where that did not seem possible.
"We're not happy about it. But for the sake of civilization and lives, probably the best thing to do is pump the water out," he said.
The water will leave behind more trouble -- a city filled with mold, some of it toxic, the experts said. After other floods, researchers found many buildings had to be stripped back to concrete, or razed."
Ok, here is somebody in authority who is saying we know the best thing to do, but the public is not going to let us do it. I tend to take that statement with a major grain of salt. Instead, we are going to do the wrong thing because of the perception that the public literally wants a quick and dirty solution. Where are all the people that are clamoring to get the water cleaned up quickly rather than building storage facilities? How long does it take to build a storage facility or many? How expensive is it? Once again, are we going to find the cheapest and quickest solution which may turn out to be the most expensive in the long run? Will the public, eg,the victims, will be blamed for something they haven't even been party to?
All I can do is write my representatives and this official, which is what I will do. Will it make a difference? I don't know, but I can't sit by without writing.
If I have insulted anyone of this board, that certainly was not my intention. As I said before, I like to gather facts and develop my perceptions and ideas based on the facts, not based on my particular situation. I will talk about my particular situation when it is relevant, as I did in the case of Brigid's argument about health care. 40 million people in this country are without health insurance and my daughter, who works 60 hours a week, is one of them. Many of the uninsured work in low-wage jobs and have no ability to pay for medical care. I have health insurance. Should I blame my daughter for not having it? Should I stand by and say,"Well, gee. I have health insurance. What's wrong with all those other people who don't and who also don't have the income to pay for any part of their medical needs? They need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps." In my daughter's case, she was severely abused by an N, was not protected by our institutions until it was almost too late, and because of what happened to her, does not function as well as someone who was not victimized. She is a brilliant girl, should definitely be in college, and because of what happened to her, may never have the faith in herself to take that risk and change her situation. (I keep dropping the seeds though :) Those are my particulars. On the other hand, I am sure that everyone else who is uninsured and poor has their own story of pain and loss, even if it "just" loss of a good job. Unfortunately, due to outsourcing, most new jobs are in services and retail, traditionally low-paid occupations.
I don't think that disagreement is insulting. I don't think that it is insulting to tell someone that you believe their perceptions are incorrect and offer proof as to why you believe so. I believe that gathering facts and developing perceptions and feelings is legal in this country, despite those who would say that disagreement with the direction we are headed is unpatriotic (translate disloyal). I personally believe that our society is dysfunctional and is a macrocosm of what happens in dysfunctional families. One of the reasons that it is considered uncouth to talk about politics or public policy is due to the same rules of silence that exist in dysfunctional families, in my opinion. I don't believe that it is insulting to say that many people who live an upper middle class life-style have been insulated from the nitty-gritty realities of what life is like for the majority of citizens and also benefit from the economic policies that prevent those who have almost nothing from getting a little more. On the other hand, there are many people from upper middle class backgrounds who are very perceptive and empathetic to those who are less fortunate. (Both my husband and are are from upper middle class backgrounds, but we have never been insulated. Why? I don't know.) Even at our current low income level, we would be willing to pay greater taxes to help those less fortunate.
I may be incorrect in my perceptions, but somebody is going to have to prove it to me by supporting their arguments with the facts and stats that are relevant to the situation.
An uncouth,
Amethyst
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Hi mudpup and all,
one more trigger which might be a female one more than a general one. Girls and women are often taught to express themselves in indirect, quiet, soft, nice ways. Anytime a woman expressed herself with passion and energy she risks being labeled 'angry' or 'shrill' or 'unfeminine' or the ever-popular 'bitchy'. Or other such exaggerations meant to make her go back in her box and start smiling demurely.
I agree with Vunil, I do not see what you are talking about. Can you give us examples. If you are going to use examples from what I wrote, that is fine with me and good. I am not sensitive about it.
Plucky
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I am not sensitive about it.
Me either! And it I am, then that is my own fault :)
Do not leave us, mudpuppy. We need more puppies on this board.
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Had some news today of a personal nature that makes all this pretty irrelevant and unimportant to me, so forget everything I said and carry on as before.
mud
PS. I'll still hang around vunil.
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being the daughter of a N has left me quite sensitive and fearful of rejection, i’ll admit this to begin: but, how foolish of me to think that i could freely express myself with regard to my N mother’s affect on my life. i happen to enjoy provoking lively, spirited conversation and was involved in this discussion board to try to express my voice and discuss the questions that remain with me on my road to feeling healthy and functional. if this type of conversation cannot be tolerated, as i see it cannot, i will take my leave. and it was nice to know that my voice, which happens to be that of a sensitive, opinionated, African-American daughter of a N, could be heard here.
in response to mudpup:
Tiffany, an African American gal, gets told what to say and what to think about people of color.
I am surprised to learn that as a white american I hate black people and poor people and third world people and Native americans.
and
But I shudder to think of the firestorm were I to suggest that anyone disagreeing with me was an evil Christian hater who only feigned concern for the poor because they really want to go on the dole themselves and they're really closet racists who just want to keep black people down on Uncle Sam's plantation.
I'm kind of tired of the double standard that my MOTIVES and therefore character are always debatable but never anyone who disagrees with me. Its a form of intellectual bullying and displays a lack of confidence in their position.
as of today, you, mudpuppy need no longer fret about the direction the posts have gone with re: to political/social/racial impact of N in my life. God forbid, i ruffle your conservative feathers by infusing the dialogue with my own personal experiences and all this hooey-talk about racial and social voicelessness. and mud, i believe your current gripe has more to do with how YOU deal with the issues of racism and what you consider to be an attack on Bush--American society. if you are so upset about feeling disenfranchised as a result of the mere possibility of not being perceived as an inherently good, Bible-toting righty, maybe you need to take that uncomfortable feeling, multiply it by 100 and phathom what disenfranchisement means to those of us who have for centuries lived and functioned in a part of American society not cloaked by the veil of politeness or correct tone. if you are just trying to get me to “constrain my passions a little” forget it, been there, done that, got the t-shirt!
you can relax now, mudpup, despite your latest post commanding us to ‘forget’ and ‘carry on’, how very N of you, the Opinionated Black Woman has left the room. (albeit dejected and quite hurt). by all means, retreat back to your ‘politically correct’ mudpup and marta-driven discussions. to those of you who had kind, encouraging, thoughful words, i want you to know i appreciate them and have enlarged, printed, cut-out, and posted many beautiful expressions of kindness on my home office post board. they will be stabilizing affirmations when i’m going through difficult times with my mother or otherwise feeling weak and low. for this, i thank you ((((((amethyst)))))))), ((((((((stormchild))))))))), (((((((((d’s mom))))))), (((((((plucky))))))). i appreciate your wisdom vunil, sela, selkie, mum, portia, and voxanne. and david p.
dr. g, could you possibly consider opening a safe place where socially aware minority abuse survivors can feel at home and free to express their plight with narcissism. apparently, the conscious of the collective African-American is unique. as survivors of centuries of abuse at the hands of N forefathers, could it be possible that we have suffered damage to our (collective) psyche that can’t be addressed in forums where clearly the moral/ethical/cultural code of the Euro-centric culture predominates. a mentality of abuse and voicelessness has left many blacks overly sensitive and emotional with regard to social acceptance and equality, as with the not so publicized outcries by the poor black communities affected by Katrina. African-Americans are still quite misunderstood. is it possible for an african-american to enter any benign discussion without provoking political/racial/social discord. i see now, even in the anonymity of cyber space, one cannot.
best wishes to you all
tif
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Tiffany,
I think you misunderstood what I said.
I thought others on another thread were telling you how to think and feel. I was defending your right to speak for yourself. I had none of your opinions or posts in mind when I posted anything on this thread. You have always stated your opinion without demonizing anyone who might disagree. I have agreed with many things you have said. I only mentioned you as someone who I thought had had words put in your mouth by others.
I'm sorry you were offended by what I said. I hope you won't leave the board.
mud
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Hello
(((Tif)))
Maybe you feel you don't need us anymore. But maybe we need you?
I have witnessed over and over again that what sets anyone off, anyone, is when they feel defined by others. Or they perceived that they have been defined or what have you. Esp. a straw man argument (the "maybe what you say is true, but you don't have the right to say it" argument) That one sends me to the moon, guaranteed.
The recent violent reaction I had to an instructor's offhand remark (out here in "real life") taught me I still have undiscovered triggers. Like, boy did that hit a sore spot. What was that all about. I didn't like it, but it was a learning opportunity. I have not responded to all the threads here, because I feel I have nothing to add to those threads, but I am sure learning a lot. Cyberspace makes it impossible for us to see people nodding and listening and thinking over what others have written.
There are many strong voices here and I hope we can make room for everyone. Each of us has a story to tell. If the garbage is ongoing and persistent then maybe it is wise to move on. But I hope these exchanges have been the exception and not the rule.
What do we have in common?
1. access to a computer...
2. N relatives
3. damage
4. a need to communicate about our damage and to heal
What do we not have in common as a group?
1. native country
2. economic backgrounds
3. occupation
4. race
5. religion
6. political affiliation
7. education
8. marital status
9. gender
etc.
My point is, we can still help each other even if we don't have a lot in common. OK, Pollyanna signing off now. MP
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Mud. Hope you’re okay at home and that whatever is happening, well, best wishes. Just one comment: when I said ‘who the heck would you say that to?’ I was thinking about the board, not general society, and I thought ‘I can’t imagine Mud saying that to anyone on the board, so have I missed something (i.e. has someone been behaving in a way that showed all those things?).’ That’s what I meant, but I didn’t say all that, so it would be easy to find another several interpretations. Whatever, doesn’t matter now. Take care with you and yours.
Tif, thanks for the acknowledgement. Glad I knew what you were talking about. That makes me glad, truly, I hope I hear clearly some of the time and it’s good to have a ‘yes’. I hope you don’t go. I hardly know you (my fault for not reading of late) but I like the sound of you.
Sela, hiya, good to see you, hope you had a good break. Welcome back.
Storm, thanks for the laugh, it’s important to laugh and I needed it. Thanks. :)
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mudpup,
my humble apologies. i believe i read you wrong there. i think i was trying to read between the lines something that didn't quite exist in your post. thanks for the clarification. please forgive the bitter retaliation/rant. my frustration of late has been misplaced. i had just spent the previous couple of hours bawling at another post that blindsided me and deleting all my topics from the board. i then read your post, saw my name and assumed you felt similarly. (i probably needed to cross-research what else you may have been referring to or perhaps took another moment to study your style of writing, before i continued on with that reply.) i shouldn't have dumped all that on you.
a sheepishly embarrassed tif :|
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mudpup,
......i shouldn't have dumped all that on you.
a sheepishly embarrassed tif :|
im glad you guys are all apologising and making up and i really hope you stay tif, so i certainly dont want to get in the way of all that. i have kept out of this beucase the last five posts or so by mudpuppy truly shocked me.
i truly believe that we have now seen who was using incendiary language, emotional bullying, black and white thinking, and intolerance and you know what tif, it wasnt you.
im totally shocked to see that level of intellectual intolerance from someone ive aways previously respected, and then when it was suggestd by brigid that he was perhaps joking, which i could maybe swallowed as an excuse, he didnt even take the graceful way out and say, yes, i was joking, or, i was having a bad day sorry i was impolite, or anything, just 'oh this isnt important -to me- anymore, so you all forget it as though it never happened.' and then even has the nerve to try to excuse it by saying he was 'defending' you. oh ick.
this has left a -very- bad taste in my mouth and certainly proves why i refrain from discussing -my- politics in public - some people invariably show themselves completely incapable of gracefully handling disagreement and those people can make any otherwise beneficial debate an unpleasant personal battleground. its a great way to keep people from looking at what might be the truth.
UGH.
if you are really apologising mudpuppy good for you. but i have to say, im really shocked at the level of your response and i agree with others, i think theres somethig else going on. i personally found the language and tone in your posts violent, incendiary and insulting. just for your information.
ok keep on apologising everyone. just had to go on record with that one.
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this has left a -very- bad taste in my mouth and certainly proves why i refrain from discussing -my- politics in public - some people invariably show themselves completely incapable of gracefully handling disagreement and those people can make any otherwise beneficial debate an unpleasant personal battleground. its a great way to keep people from looking at what might be the truth.
Discussing politics and taking a stand does not write in stone who you are. It's just a discussion! I love discussions. Especially since I was not able to have them until recently. If we can't have a good tussle over Hurricane Katrina, then let's return to the shifting sands of always posting so politely and empathetically that no one will be challenged to air their gut felt beliefs. By virtue of posting to this board, I would think we all are aware that we can be taken to task over what we post ...Alternately, you all can tell me what you think about my posts. I always think as carefully about critical comments as I do about supportive ones. The operative word here is "think". What a gift! Jeepers, let's give it a rest. Two of the players are willing to keep talking!!! And Hurricane Season does extend into November. :(...I don't know third-world from afro-americans to hispanic field workers to whatever...I was really looking forward to finding out....just talking should not turn into who is the nicest, most diplomatic, articulate, empathetic, caring person on the board. Of course, I would hope all would do so in the spirit of discussion and if not able to do so, just give us a disclaimer. We're all open to that, aren't we?
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D's mom,
I sent you a PM under 'del's mom'. I think that is you.
I hope it is and I hope you'll read it.
mud
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Doctor Grossman,
I don't know if, as the originator of this thread, I have any say in the matter, but would it be possible to lock it?
I started it in hopes it might prompt people to agree on a friendlier and kindlier tone with each other, but obviously I didn't succeed. Just as obviously its probably my fault.
It is contributing to the very rancor I was complaining about. So I would really appreciate it if you would consider locking it.
Of course if others want to continue to discuss the issues involved, I guess that's up to them not me. In any event I am locking myself out of it.
mudpuppy
PS. Has anybody been stupid enough to have to ask to have their own thread locked before? :? :(
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mud-
im really sorry but for some reason, whenever i try to login here, my computer crashes. i guess it has to do with something about the program that runs this board or something...... im not sure what to do about that... either way - i cant login.. i cant even re-register with a different name. ive tried lots of times. it only lets me on here as guest. :(
i will keep trying and hopefully i can get your message.
ps dogbit - it isnt discussions that bum me out. i love discussions, especially lively thought provoking ones. i enjoy exploring intellectual disagreement. i respect and enjoy differences when they are respectfully presented. its discussions that get sidetracked, drowned in hyperbole, crippled by participants making everything personal, and disintegrating into personal assault that i cant take. thats why usually i keep my politics under my hat. ive seen it enough times. we could use it as an exercise here to learn how to be better communicators. maybe we will. that would be great. but, i doubt it.
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dr. g, could you possibly consider opening a safe place where socially aware minority abuse survivors can feel at home and free to express their plight with narcissism....African-Americans are still quite misunderstood. is it possible for an african-american to enter any benign discussion without provoking political/racial/social discord. i see now, even in the anonymity of cyber space, one cannot
Tiffany I agree there are some racial and social issues of all types that a lot of people on this board cannot get to (me too! you too!). If you feel you are being 80% understood I think that is about average and not bad. No one up here feels completely understood. I think our strength is in staying together, not in further segregating ourselves into smaller groups hoping for 100% harmony. I don't think the African American community is completely homogeneous either. That's what makes you, you, and me, me, and that's what makes the world go around!
Both you and mudpup are trying the very same response to the conflict. Withdrawal. Both of you, just come back and sit down and work through it.
Plucky
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one more trigger:
being told your own misery is all your own fault.
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I sorta said this before, but I think we are doing fine. I think communication is happening, we are mostly on the same page on the medium issues and on the BIG issue we are all exactly in the same place (we feel horrible for the victims and wish this hadn't happened). More detailed stuff the reflects political sensibilities, well, so what? We aren't going to all agree on that and I'm cool with it.
In fact, reading the thread, it's kind of sweet how folks venture forth with their viewpoint, then wonder if they were too harsh, then apologize,then venture forth again in a different way. It all belies a real sense of ... not sure the right word her... a sense of trying. And I can feel what people are trying for, what I'm trying for, in some visceral way that is really touching to me, and personal. I am not sure how to express it, but it is something about wanting to find that balance between having a voice (which sometimes wants to shout something specific and perhaps offensive to someone else) and having connections with these folks we care about. It is high-level stuff, nothing to berate ourselves about.
Dunno. But in the early morning right now it is all looking hopeful and fine, not like a donneybrook (great word) like it did before.
Thanks, everyone. This list is priceless to me.
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Hi all:
Mud wrote:
Had some news today of a personal nature that makes all this pretty irrelevant and unimportant to me, so forget everything I said and carry on as before.
Dear Mud, news that makes all this pretty irrelevant/unimportant sounds like pretty serious news. I'm so sorry. I hope you will be ok. Please reach out here for support as needed. I will pray for you.
Amethyst wrote:
I don't think that it is insulting to tell someone that you believe their perceptions are incorrect and offer proof as to why you believe so.
Some people may find it insulting to be told their perceptions are incorrect. Not everyone will be interested in the proof or find the proof as solid as the prover. :? :D
Tif: You're not the first person on earth to react/say stuff that you may regret but you are certainly admirable for appologizing with sincerity. Thanks for including me in your list of the wise. :oops: :oops: That's a very nice compliment that can easily be argued. However, thankyou for it. Please stay (and give me more compliments.... :D :D just kidding, I swear!)
Portia wrote:
Sela, hiya, good to see you, hope you had a good break. Welcome back.
Thanks P. Good to see you too! Had a marvelous time at our cabin up north. I feel guilty for enjoying myself (anyone else???).
d'smom wrote:
i think theres somethig else going on.
So do I and I think it might be very serious.
Mud wrote:
PS. Has anybody been stupid enough to have to ask to have their own thread locked before?
Well, now that you mention it.....nope. But you may have started a popular new trend??? :D
You always make me smile Muddy. Thankyou for that!
(((((((((((((all)))))))))))
Sela
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D's mom,
I had to break my promise not to post here again to tell you that I sent my PM to your e-mail address.
mud
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Mud:
I hope you will keep breaking that promise and post here and not lock yourself out of anything.
What can we do to help you right now? Please ask.
Sela
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Some people may find it insulting to be told their perceptions are incorrect. Not everyone will be interested in the proof or find the proof as solid as the prover.
This is a big personality difference, I think. Some folks on this board are in jobs (e.g., academia) where we just love to spend all day batting evidence about. I think for other people it is just like a steamroller in the middle of the conversation to have someone (like me) suddenly spewing forth this and that piece of evidence for my posiiton. I am looking for them to do the same thing back, with evidence for their position. But I see now it doesn't seem like that-- it seems like an attack. And maybe they don't want to list a bunch of evidence for their position-- that kind of argumentation doesn't interest them.
Am I right that people differ on this??
Helpful to know!
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You know what Vunil? I think you've nailed it.
It probably is just a matter of thinking patterns/ways of expressing stuff/and......the biggie.....
reactions.
We all react differently. Very good point.
Not only that....but for me....when I react....I might, sometimes, even often....ask myself:
"What the heck was that? Why did I react like that? So what if so and so sees my perception as off? I don't. What the heck do I really care? Why must I take it so personally? Why can't I just smile and say: To each his own?"
It's probably a much deeper thingy than opinion or perceptions. Maybe it's habit? Maybe it is personality?? (although.....I really have a hard time with defining that one sometimes because it seems variable...if that makes any sense? :?). Maybe it feels like an attack because it actually is an attack (to that person...at that time....when they are truly trying to express themselves and what they get back is ....a contradiction???).
Brain cells going haywire now! :D
It is all how we perceive stuff isn't it?
:D Sela
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Mud:
Locking threads. I just found a board function.
If you want this thread locked, I think you can do it. But only you (as a member) can do it with your own thread. You decide!
I just started a new thread. When I viewed my post, I saw the option at the bottom of the page to Lock/Unlock and I tried it. It works. You can lock or unlock your own threads to your heart’s content, it seems.
Interesting. I wonder if it still works when you have lots of replies like this thread? Think I might check this out....
back again. It works. I just locked an older thread. Weird huh?
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Certainly I feel like I must appologize to you Mud for asking you not to lock yourself out of this thread.
If you no longer wish to post to this thread and want to lock it, I'm with Portia, lock away! I'm sorry that I put it that way. It was silly of me.
What I really am trying to say is that I hope, very much, that you will stay on this board, post, ask for support from others here, give your views, your jokes, and anything else you are willing to share/need.
((((((((((((Mud))))))))))
My prayers are for you.
:D Sela
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Some people may find it insulting to be told their perceptions are incorrect. Not everyone will be interested in the proof or find the proof as solid as the prover.
This is a big personality difference, I think. Some folks on this board are in jobs (e.g., academia) where we just love to spend all day batting evidence about. I think for other people it is just like a steamroller in the middle of the conversation to have someone (like me) suddenly spewing forth this and that piece of evidence for my posiiton. I am looking for them to do the same thing back, with evidence for their position. But I see now it doesn't seem like that-- it seems like an attack. And maybe they don't want to list a bunch of evidence for their position-- that kind of argumentation doesn't interest them.
Am I right that people differ on this??
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i think this makes a lot of sense. i probably <totally unreasonably> expect these discussions to be somewhat intellectual exercises....... (for fun and profit) being 'right' being less important than finding and comparing the 'facts' as they appear..... exploring whats out there together, hopefully objectively and with the goal being to learn. in that model its a given that there will be disagreement - but one would hope one would not get so 'attached' to ones own 'version' of the 'facts'....... its just objective information..... open to interpretation. we al have the right to interpret what we see as the 'facts' in our very own way, and to me that is the ultimate thing to respect in any situation.
i guess im expecting (possibly unreasonably, im ok with that) people to follow rules of 'sportsmanship' regarding other peoples interpretation of any given set of 'facts'............. which to me is very important that people be allowed to view the world the way they choose...... even if i totally disagree i expect myself to respect their right to their own viewpoint... and you are right, if im playing a different game than other people, they are not going to understand what i am doing!!!!!!!!! thats not fair. so to explain - that the model i am approaching all this from.
im not trying to say people werent playing with sportsmanship. just thats how it was -feeling- to me, beucase i was i guess playing a different 'game' than maybe other people were.
fwiw - if i were to say what i -reallly- thought politically.. i probably wouldnt have a friend left on this board. ive got enough tact just not to go there anymore :)
and, i dont like that. i dont like that i cannot expres myself politically without feeling as though i may be personally attacked. i dont like that feeling. but i have just learned, not to talk about it. now does that sound like a country of intellectual freedom........... hmmmmm........
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mud:
got your message. sent a reply.
your my favorite pereson and i respect you greatly.
just take care & stick around.
we love you.
d'smom
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Hi Old Friend,
I haven't frequented here as much either for some of the same reasons.
These days I feel anxious enough and some of the threads here add to my anxiety. I was hoping that this would be a more therapeutic place....at least it used to feel that it was.
Anyway, I chose to ignore any posts that raise my blood pressure and as I mentioned above I don't check in as much.
Here's an idea....Can there be a separate section for hot topics........like crossfire? For those of us who don't want to venture there.....we just won't click onto that particular forum.
Take care, Mud. Good to see you.
Mia
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One last time, :P
D's mom,
I didn't get your e-mail but I'm glad we're OK again. Thanks for the kind words.
Portia,
Nah, whats the point of locking it. Its dying a natural death on its own, besides who am I to stop someone else from joining in?
Sela,
No need to apologize whatsoever. I guess I'll hang around, just not on this thread.
Plucky,
Tiffany and I worked our misunderstanding out very well through PMs. I also hope she stays; very much.
mud
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Glad to see your smile and hear your voice Muddy.
Ok then....save that appology for the next foot in mouth episode. It's bound to happen. :oops:
I hope Tif stays too.
:D Sela