Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: onlyrenting on September 29, 2005, 06:00:33 PM
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Problem: 99% of the time my D will leave letters from her dad out on the table and I read them with out her seeing me reading them. He sends her little 1.00 gifts 2-3 times a week. Today he sent her two letters 1 had a little toy without a letter the other had a letter Im concerned about.
This letter is a direct attack on his brother. He is telling our 12 year old how her uncle is having an affair.
He explains he would never tell his kids, but he wants our D to know this is the real reason his brother does not like him. His brother does not want anyone to find out and treats him mean because of his knowing about the affair.
Kids will be kids and if my D knows this she may want to tell and I am so mad at my H right now I could scream!
He continues to say the most negitive things about me in the letters and I try not to let on I know what he is saying about me.
I will say how nice it is he sent her something if she shows me.
One of the letters last week ask her to contact him he must speak with her regarding the court date in Oct.
I need his permission to have her continue with the T, next week I should have this approved with the courts.
I only get his rath if I need him to respond, so I will have the judge help me with this.
Should I let her read the letter?
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OR,
In my opinion, that subject matter is completely inappropriate to discuss with a 12YO child, unless they are directly affected and MUST be informed. Even then it should be approached in a much more general way. I urge you not to have your daughter read it if you can. Definitely save it for the judge though. :twisted:
P.S. It sounds like B.S. anyway. If STBXH knows about brothers affair, you'd think brother would be sucking up to keep him from telling anyone, not being angry with him about knowing. Sheesh. It is like spiral upon spiral of out-of-touchness from him.
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I seems to me that he is attempting to recruit your daughter to form some sort of sick alliance for his own purposes. I agree with Longtire . This stuff is adult business and it is not the business of a 12 yr old. because he cannot see( of does not care) that he is in violation of her emotional boundaries it is up to you to filter all this shit out. Tough break, but that seems to be the way it has to be.
David P.
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Hi OR,
Is this the same brother your stbx was accusing you of having an affair with? If so you know what the next letter will say.
In any event I'm with Long on this one. She's only twelve. I think if it were me I, in fact I know if it were me, I'd tell her I'm reading every letter he sends first to see if its appropriate for her. Your job is to protect her, whether she likes you for it or not. I know its a fine line not to alienate her, but reading a bunch of lies from him is a pretty good way for her to be alienated from you also.
I can't believe there would be repurcussions in court for you making sure your daughter is protected from a certifiable grade a nut. If anybody is trying to alienate her affections its him ragging on you.
mud
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Long, David, and Mudd,
I have the letter and will claim I never saw it. She opened the other letter and questioned why there was not a some type of note with her gift.
Long, I think of you and how you are doing. How is your daughter?
that subject matter is completely inappropriate,
I was so mad at him, to be so hateful and willing to hurt his brother kids, knowing my D would someday think about telling her cousin. I don't know that she would but she would not know what to do with such painful news. She would be the tool to use and then everyone would be mad at her for saying something
Mudd: YES
this the same brother your stbx was accusing you of having an affair with
I was told he quit say this, after no one was paying attention.
I know its a fine line not to alienate her, but reading a bunch of lies from him is a pretty good way for her to be alienated from you also.
Thanks Mud this is how I was feeling about what his true goal is. This is a fine line, I have a note to the judge/mediator to review some of his letters.
I agree about checking his letters, I have looked at most all of them most are just hello. He is too selfabsorbed to ask if she needs something.
This letter tells her how he may never see her again, he needs more surguries. All negative stuff!
He seals up his letters with a gray tape thinking this will secure the letter. Gray tape if you peal it back it won't tear the paper. Im able to seal the letter back up and she can't tell, even if I break the seal I can put the gray tape back. I check the letters like this one but most of the time even the negative stuff I may let her read it.
If I need to I will indirectly talk about the letter later.
This one is just so beyond appropriate, I will be talking to the court on the 4th. He will be thinking his bomb shell has hit and will come back to the scene of the crime. My D will have no idea about the letter if he ask. The 4th is tuesday maybe he will think the letter is late.
He had sent her another letter last week, wanting to talk with her making sure I would not be around.
I was expecting him to be desparate to speak with her before court. She could e-mail him or call him but she doesn't. She has changed her e-mail a dozen times so he can't keep up with her. He writes her but she would rather e-mail.
David
Very perceptive. I protect her more than she will ever know. N's can sence things so I try not to tell her too much to protect her. I think he wants to hurt his brother for helping me and willing to use his own daughter to acheive is evil goals. So sad and I want to tell him how evil he is, but I will let the judge tell him.
I will make sure I have a plan set with the court to notify them with contempt charges if he continues.
I seems to me that he is attempting to recruit your daughter to form some sort of sick alliance for his own purposes
Another question, should I tell his brother incase something ever comes up in the future?
OR
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Long, I think of you and how you are doing. How is your daughter?
OR, I had dinner with my D last night and then she came over to my place and we talked and I helped her with some of her math homework. She came over again tonight unannounced. :D That's a good thing because I keep telling her that she can be here any time. (She has to call me first if anyone else is with her.) I keep thinking I need to talk about everything going on with her, but then when we're together it just seems easy to talk and have a good time. So, I'm just laying low and I'll see if she wants to discuss things later on. She even told me that she is ready to start thinking about coming to spend the night here. I told her that would be great whenever she was ready. Sorry, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I'm happy that we are getting closer again. I love my daughter very much and worry about how all this is affecting her.
On your issue, I say protect your daughter and read all her letters if you have to. Your STBXH is consistently so far over the line he doesn't appear to really perceive anyone else. Certainly not what they need or what is helpful or hurtful to them. I'm sorry that you have to take the extra burden of that while having to deal with your own personal portion of crap from him at the same time. Still, you are doing a great job. Keep up the good work and protect your precious D.
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I will simply echo the rest of the ideas here, OR.
Your H is discussing this very innappropriate adult topic with your 12 year old. That alone should give you no reticence about reading any and every communication from him to her.
The judge will NOT admonish you for "interfering" in that relationship (except in a positive way) if that letter comes forward.
So what if the ex figures out the letter was confiscated? Say nothing....again, let the legal end take care of that.
I am so sorry about this. I know how hard it is to "bite your tongue" when it comes to letting the children have their own relationship with their dad....but this letter exemplifies that comminications from him are NOT in her best interest at all times.
Do what you must.
The only thing that is sacred (IMO...and this not even always) is a kids' own writings to themselves (as in a journal/diary). Anything from someone else TO your child IS your business!
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OR,
God, what a jerk. So sorry for what you have to deal with. I am glad that he is giving you timely ammunition for the court though. I agree 101% that the subject matter is totally inappropriate for the child. I see that you are dealing with the crap with admirable alertness and getting a judge/mediator to review his letters, which is just perfect. How about getting a locked mailbox, so daughter does not have first access to the mail? As she grows older, it is going to be harder and harder for her to not open mail addressed to her. Besides, most likely once ex finds out that his letters are being censored, he will use email or any other way to contact her.
My mom did many things of this kind. My twelve-year old sister was also told about an affair my father supposedly was having. Her primary motivation was to ensure that (a) whoever was her enemy became my enemy too; (b) as David mentioned, to forge a sick alliance between her and me, our little secret. (c) to alienate and isolate me from my support system. For example, when I was eighteen, once of our family friends was taking much interest in me and spared a lot of time to help me with studies, invite me to her family gatherings etc. Mom “innocently” told me that this friend thought that I was mentally ill and may need help, which is why she was going out of her way to be nice to me. I was tremendously hurt by this disclosure and immediately distanced from someone who obviously sensed something was wrong and genuinely wanted to help me.
In your case, since his own brother is on your side, it makes Stbx look pretty bad in your daughter’s eyes. Therefore he wants to devalue the brother and portray him as an unfaithful liar so that he everything else the brother may have to say re. the divorce can also be devalued by the daughter and Stbx can redeem his own image in his daughter’s eyes. I think he will most likely pass on the info. to the daughter in a meeting or whatever. Consider this a dry run. If it works, the next alliance he will try to forge will be against you….
OR:
have the letter and will claim I never saw it.
Not a good idea to lie to her. She is bound to find out the truth, especially since you’ll use it in court, and it’ll undermine your authority with her and crack the trust. I’d casually tell her that the letter contained adult material inappropriate for her. Or better still, let her T deal with this one.
Is your brother-in-law really having the affair? If not, inappropriate as it is, I’d show the letter to D and have brother-in-law’s wife talk to D about it, so that you put an end once and for all about lies of this kind, and reduce the chances that D will believe Stbx in future. Otherwise you have this sword hanging over your head.
OR:
Another question, should I tell his brother incase something ever comes up in the future?
Definitely. I would contact him right now and nip this game in the bud, or else the lies may get out of hand in a blink. I’ve found that when harmless third parties are used as ploys by Ns, the best way to prevent further misunderstandings is to expose them right there and then, as a proactive measure, to prevent the misunderstanding from spiraling.
OR:
This letter tells her how he may never see her again, he needs more surguries.
My mom used the same tactic. She’s been on the verge of death for the last 35 years. Objective is to arouse guilt and abandonment anxiety in D. I would try to mention this casually and humorously, and somehow indirectly get the point across to D as to how her father is prone to histrionics and exaggeration etc. If necessary, point her to medical articles re. prostate cancer or whatever he may have, and show how high the survival rates are, so D can learn to examine factual evidence for herself.
OR:
He will be thinking his bomb shell has hit
I would not underestimate him. Once he finds out the extent to which you are willing to go to protect the daughter, he will raise the stakes, cruelty of his tactics will escalate, and you will be dragged into having to deal with all that. I am so sorry that you have to put up with all this.
Longtire, your relationship with your daughter seems very sweet. I think building a loving and healthy relationship is the greatet gift you can give her. Don't think that you have to verbally thrash out every issue all the time; somethings are better conveyed with a look or a hug.
OR, I think you are doing a super-duper job of dealing with this nightmare, and seem to be in control. You have a T lined up for your daughter, have your in-laws on your side, are having a mediator review his letters, and are maintaining a good relationship with your daughter on top of everything else. Power to you!
Hugs, Marta
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Hiya OR
I agree this is not a subject for a 12 year old to read about in a letter from her dad. What was he thinking of??
I have had to protect my daughter from her dad's weird and wonderful letters in the past - and I have even protected him from some of her angrier letters too, by 'forgetting' to post them. I think this is part of being a responsible parent, and everything you write shows that you are thinking of your d and her needs, rather than anyone else's, which is exactly right.
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Marta, Oct. Mum, Long. Thank you for your time.
Marta,
How about getting a locked mailbox, so
I have the only key to the box.
He may be having an affair it may all be true. I could blow this off like its a brother thing to think this is true.
Problem if she tells her cousin how hurtful that would be if the wife was asked about this.....it just stinks!
I’d show the letter to D and have brother-in-law’s wife talk to D about
Not a good idea to lie to her. She is bound to find out the truth, especially since you’ll use it in court, and it’ll undermine your authority with her and crack the trust. I’d casually tell her that the letter contained adult material inappropriate for her. Or better still, let her T deal with this one.
Today I faxed over this letter to the court, they should have enough time by tuesday to review and make note of the content. I wrote a cover letter explaining my concerns. I did say my D did not know about the letter, and I know my ex would find a way to reach her with his distructive message. I reminded them she is being used as a tool by the ex and they should be aware of his intentions. I admitted I intercepted the letter fearing his desparation from reading prior letters about the upcoming court date.
I'm having a difficult time with the thought of her reading this letter, my ex may come back with questions about the letter, in my mind I feel ready to take what ever back lash from him. By that time the court will have already reviewed what he has to say. They can tell me not to read her mail in the future but for now it's the mother bear out with all claws. Im hitting the dumb mule with the biggest stick I can find.
I know it would be a lie to say I never got the letter and someday I will show it to her, maybe. I would want to bring up parts of the letter to see where her head is.
There is more in the letter that wreaks of confusion about his intentions, saying he never lies, how if he dies he has her in his will, how she is the only thing that allows him to think about getting better.
The whole letter is so full of PROJECTIONS? He lies over and over but says he NEVER lies. is that projection?
OCT
What was he thinking of??
Marta said it best
the divorce can also be devalued by the daughter and Stbx can redeem his own image in his daughter’s eyes. I think he will most likely pass on the info. to the daughter in a meeting or whatever. Consider this a dry run. If it works, the next alliance he will try to forge will be against you….
I fear his attack on me will be to hurt our D. Im so gald his health problems and distance is keeping him away.
Mum:
I know how hard it is to "bite your tongue" when it comes to letting the children have their own relationship with their dad....but this letter exemplifies that comminications from him are NOT in her best interest at all times.
Mum, I find these N's do not play by the rules and always the first to jump on those that even think about treating them the way they talk and treat others. I don't want to react and the courts may say
"You married the jerk and had a child now communicate, leave us out of it"
Im so glad for this site, I wish I had found the help years ago. Well I know now and can only move forward the best I know how.
Long, When I read this I wanted to cry, I hope someday my D will know a man who loves his kids and shows them the kind of love you show your D. ( you see why you are my hero) ?
I had dinner with my D last night and then she came over to my place and we talked and I helped her with some of her math homework
I remember last December when I did not understand what an N was. You nailed it!
How far I have come to learn and understand the nightmare I was in.
he doesn't appear to really perceive anyone else. Certainly not what they need or what is helpful or hurtful to them.
Thank you all so much. OR
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Hi OR,
He lies over and over but says he NEVER lies. is that projection?
No, its just another big fat lie. He's projecting when he accuses you of lying.
I know it would be a lie to say I never got the letter and someday I will show it to her, maybe.
Can't you tell her you got it but its not fit for her to read?
for now it's the mother bear out with all claws. Im hitting the dumb mule with the biggest stick I can find.
It doesn't work too well hitting dumb mules in the head, that's why they call 'em dumb. Sit down for awhile with a knife and make your stick nice and pointy then break it off in the end opposite of his head. :P :shock:
mud
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OR,
WHat a terrible situation you are caught in! I really feel for you. You are so justified in feeling that your D will some day blurt it out to her cousins, and then so many will be hurt by that. On top of everything else, then your D will be held responsible for all that.
I only meant that if it the affair thing is a lie, I'd enlist sister-in-law's help to expose it and put an end to such tactics. If there is some chance that it is true, I'd tell D that you had seen the letter and it contained inappropriate material for her to read so you were not giving it to her.
I only worry that Stbx is going to pass on his message any way. If it becomes known to D that you had intentionally held this info back without teling her, it might close a door in that she may not feel comfortable coming out upfront and discussing with you this matter, especially if her father asks her not to because you may get mad or whatever. That way, he'd create a crack in your relationship with D and make every effort to pass his filth through that crack, like sewer stench. Then she'd be in possession of this explosive info anyway without anyone to turn to for guidance as to how to deal with it.
Can't D's therapist help in dealing with this situation?
I'm definitely not proselytizing about witholding information or whatever else you need to do to protect your daughter. I am only thinking about it as a battle strategy, that N would use this opportunity to slander you to D and she'd become confused. Anyway, sharpen your mother claws and do what you think is the best. As you say, it's a good idea to see what the courts have to say about it and go from there.
At least with N parents, one can cut off the ties if one wants to; with an Nx who's father of your child, you have to deal with so much on an ongoing basis. I really feel for you.
all the way behind you and rooting for you, Marta
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Mud, thanks so much for the funny........Im wiping the tears from my eyes.
My EX will wonder when and how much damage he has caused. When he finds out there was no letter he will have to rethink how he will get his message to her. He will have to wonder for now if the letter is on the way and should he wait before he says too much. He may stay away for a while thinking he has done his evil deed.
This will allow some time and delay the impact of the hurt he wanted to apply.
By Tuesday I should have information from the courts and how I can put a stop to more of the same type of harrassment. If the whole world finds out she did not get this one letter then that's ok. Its not my first choice to do this but I feel I need some time to consider whats the best thing to do.
Let the judge tell me she would be ok to read this letter. If my H finds another way to tell her hurtful things the courts are aware he seeks to communicate inapporprate subjects. I hope they make suggestions on the type of communication allowed, they may say I have authority to read the letters and tell my EX she needs to comply with this rule. Maybe he will stop like he did with the e-mails to me. Now the judge has questionalble letters from him to his child and his wife, he again has been exposed, N's hate that.
She should be able to continue in the next few weeks with her T to help her deal with his futurre letters. For now the T she was seeing had to stop unitl I have full legal custody written in stone from the judge. Now I must have permission from him and he will not communicate in a nice way so I don't bother with him.
Thanks Mud for the laugh.
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OR:
I feel I need some time to consider whats the best thing to do.
I know what you mean. Ns put up in wierdest situations out of the blue, and then we are forced to deal with it. Of course you need some time to think over what is best for her. If you get a chance, check out this article re. custody situations with abusers. All the best for Tuesday!!!
http://www.wcwonline.org/wrn/lundy.pdf
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OR
You would be doing the right thing by not letting your daughter read his letters until you have opportunity to look at them.
Hold on to these letters they will serve you well in the future.
Judges are all about protecting the children so I can't see how this would backfire on you. I just found out that in my state that the CP has the right to tape record all phone conversations child/children have with the NonCustodial P....if you have reason to believe that such person is saying inappropriate comments to the child/children.
Good luck.
PS I think the entire thing about the BIL is a bunch of baloney. It's his pathetic attempt to say to his daughter, "See he's the bad guy...not me....I'm the good guy and that's why he doesn't like me.
Can't wait to hear how he explains to your daughter why the rest of the world takes issue with him. Should be interesting and entertaining.
Keep screening those letters, girl!
Mia
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OR, you might want to photocopy the letters and have the copies notarized, and hand them all over to your lawyer. Nothing quite like using an N's own words and actions to prove they're an N. Hard for him to argue against what he himself wrote.
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Storm, Mia,Marta Thank you all for spending time to help me with this crazy stuff!
BIL, called this AM, the TX fair is here and we are all going after chruch on SUN.
He asked if I heard form my EX, I told him about the letter and the attack on him.
He was upset that the impact from my D to repeat this story could give him reason not to welcome her in his home. I explained she did not know about the letter and I have faxed the court the letter in hopes to make them aware.
I must now be prepared to make a plan for D to only mention this type of story to her uncle or myself.
I must give her an avenue to feel safe and how her father is being abusive to her by telling her such things.
knowing she may feel she would betray her father I don't know how it will go.
I tried to tell BILthat my ex's plan is to keep us away from him using D to execute the destruction of the relationship.
Marta, This is such a fine line I walk, finding the cracks and sealing them up will be a great chanlenge for me.
I will consult as much as possible and will have to trust D, will be able to know when she see's these cracks and some how seal them up in a loving way.
That way, he'd create a crack in your relationship with D and make every effort to pass his filth through that crack, like sewer stench
My ex was abused by his extreamly alcoholic M. In this letter he mentions how he was 12 like her now and how he took care of the M when she was unable to take care of herself. His dad traveld and left my ex to fend for himself. Now that he claims to needs 3 more surguries, (I think his elbows and hands for carpal tunne)l
he will need help and wished she was there with him to help him out. He expects her to show him what he calls unconditional love and this is the only type of love he has for her.
Marta, I did review the web site, I pray the courts will have open eyes and ears to my sitiuation and protect us from my ex's rath.
Reading about how the sparation is more dangerous and leaving the child in the hands of the NCP to use for revenge upon the spouse. With N if the spouse has another boyfried, they will feel the child is theirs and make life the the boyfriend difficult.
My ex in this letter tells D to help me find another BF ASAP so I will leave BIL and family alone.
Now I fear the future will have a no-win as long as he thinks I have any type of support system.
He is mad about BIL helping us, this in his mind means HIS child is being kept from him.
BIL has offered to fly him here for TG but EX ignores the offer. Instead plays victim.
We are going to the Fair, on Sunday and will disscuss with BIL about how to deal with ex.
BIL, is director for the anger managment program (deals with drug program), I have seen the information provided on classes offered. He may be able to give some good direction how to nip this before too much damage is done.
Storm: I have photocopies of some of the letters and e-mails and web-stie chats all in the hand of the court now. Tues will be telling if his own words are damaging enough to sway the mediator in my direction for custody.
Mia,
N's will love to fool the court, find a way to do their damage no matter what. The judge already is mad at him for telling a lie in court. I was on the phone for the hearing and could hear the judge when my ex denied ever receiving my certified court papers to respond for OSC. I told the judge if he looked he would find the proff from the P.O. the letter was ignored. My ex has already told me he will tell what ever lies just to make me prove he lied. I found a court rule and attached to my papers, if spouse makes up lies he would have to pay for cost from the other party to prove the lie. Don't know if they will follow through but I added anyway.
Thanks to all of you for your time OR
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My ex was abused by his extreamly alcoholic M. In this letter he mentions how he was 12 like her now and how he took care of the M when she was unable to take care of herself. His dad traveld and left my ex to fend for himself. Now that he claims to needs 3 more surguries, (I think his elbows and hands for carpal tunne)l
he will need help and wished she was there with him to help him out. He expects her to show him what he calls unconditional love and this is the only type of love he has for her.
This piece of information is key, OR. Abusers always, always, always telegraph their punches... they use that to justify their abusiveness [well, I told you I was a snake when you picked me up, as the old joke goes].
Your X is telling your daughter that he intends to abuse her in the exact same way that his mother abused him. He apparently feels that he inherited the right to enslave his own 12-year-old, since that's what his mother did to him.
This is one the court really ought to see, and so ought your daughter's T, if you can manage both... because this really is it, this is his intentions towards her, in a nutshell.
God bless you OR. God keep you strong and your daughter safe. Thank God you got away.
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Storm:
Abusers always, always, always telegraph their punches... they use that to justify their abusiveness [well, I told you I was a snake when you picked me up, as the old joke goes].
I could use more understanding on this Storm, sounds scary to me. YUK!!!
Update on the screening of the letters. We had a heated discussion when I opened todays letter from him.
D got mad at me, upset and said how she was going to tell her dad.
Today we had to run around doing shopping , I had mentioned speaking with her uncle, we were expecting her dad to be writing her and what ever she read if it sounding like something that would be hurtful she was NOT to ever tell her cousins. Her dad is mad at the world and just be prepared for a letter from him.
Made it sound like he had sent her uncle a mean e-mail and we knew to expect something mean about BIL to her.
I get todays letter and she is mad at me I tell her because of the recent news it will be done to make sure she is protected and I love her no matter what. if she feels living with her dad is what she wants I will love her still.
We went on upset, Im telling her before she makes a life changing decision she should read about the mental Illness her dad has. I told her to try and undersand this is abuse to make her his tool to hurt others.
I explained I don't want her to feel bad about her dad, this is why I don't share too much about him being N.
How now she needs to understand the danger he would be willing to put her in and to undersand what I know. Im looking out to keep her safe and would not do this just to be unfair.
Todays letter was weird, something about her uncle sending him a letter using my D's name?
I can't imagine what he is talking about but claims he is bringint this letter to court.
The letter was short and no mention about the other letter, Im sure he assumes she got it.
So now she knows from now on Im screening his letters...........I feel better that's in the open.
She offered to let me see the e-mails she sent him but then said no.
She is being more sweet and not showing anger towards me.
I told her I do understand why she would be upset and I was sorry for in invasion of her privacy.
It's the fair on Sunday, hoping she will assure her uncle not to ever repeat the mean things her dad says about him to his kids...............
I feel better ..........OR
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OR,
I remember my daughter at 12. :shock: Judgement and most of the brain go out the window for a year or two. Keep telling her that you love her and are doing this to protect her since she is the most important thing in your life and are not doing it to ruin her life (universal fear of 12 year old girls?). Let her know that you want her to have fun and freedom but that she is not fully ready to take care of herself yet and that is still your job for a while longer. Let her know that it is your primary job to take care of her and when she is ready to take care of herself and do a good job of it, you will be happy to let her do that. Keep telling her these things and they will (slowly) sink in. My daughter has since told me that she is glad we did the checking up on her and keeping her safe at that age. She can't believe how naive and clueless she was then, now that she has matured so much (almost 17 now). :)
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My ex was abused by his extreamly alcoholic M. In this letter he mentions how he was 12 like her now and how he took care of the M when she was unable to take care of herself. His dad traveld and left my ex to fend for himself. Now that he claims to needs 3 more surguries, (I think his elbows and hands for carpal tunne)l
he will need help and wished she was there with him to help him out. He expects her to show him what he calls unconditional love and this is the only type of love he has for her.
This piece of information is key, OR. Abusers always, always, always telegraph their punches... they use that to justify their abusiveness [well, I told you I was a snake when you picked me up, as the old joke goes].
Your X is telling your daughter that he intends to abuse her in the exact same way that his mother abused him. He apparently feels that he inherited the right to enslave his own 12-year-old, since that's what his mother did to him.
This is one the court really ought to see, and so ought your daughter's T, if you can manage both... because this really is it, this is his intentions towards her, in a nutshell
OR: I highlighted Stormy's entire post because she is 100% dead on with this one. This letter you mention is what the court needs to see...it's the scariest of all.
Your daughter got upset because she has to do that at this age....she settled down because deep down, she knows you are looking out for her. Don't for a second worry about her being "mad" at you. Better a temporarily angry teenager than a severely damaged adult. You are an awesome mom. Do not doubt yourself.
Your ex is NOT a good father. And he does NOT have her best interests at heart.
Please remember this when your daughter whines about her wanting the relationship with her father not to be monitored.
Simply ask yourself if a normal father/daughter relationship would have anything to hide....
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Mum, I found this and wonder about his efforts to use a code word, I believe it's to see if she read his letter.
Simply ask yourself if a normal father/daughter relationship would have anything to hide
I was just reading todays letter again, He is telling her to e-mail him as soon as she gets this letter.
the very last sentence on the letter I will not let her read is the words
..........a father always understands.
The letter today says use the code word a father always............ she would not know to put understands because she never got this letter.
I don't want to give her that letter........it's like seeds that will sit deep inside and someday come out to only hurt. I guess he will figure it out if she emails him with out the code word "understands."
Long, and Mum, I appreciate your wisdom about 12 yrolds, I feel better that someday she will know her mom wants the best for her.
Mum,
she settled down because deep down, she knows you are looking out for her. Don't for a second worry about her being "mad" at you. Better a temporarily angry teenager than a severely damaged adult. You are an awesome mom. Do not doubt yourself.
thanks for making me feel better.
Mum, I will make sure the court knows about this.
This letter you mention is what the court needs to see...it's the scariest of all
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thank you all so much ...............OR
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Hello OR,
Just checking in to cheer you on. You ARE absolutely doing right by your daughter by protecting her (at age 12) from a sick person. If this person were not her father, you would have NO hesitation. He has not preserved the right to have unmonitored contact with this young girl because he is not trustworthy and not looking out for her (the true child) interests. The password thing is creepy. To twist his logic around, if a normal father/daughter relationship doesn't have anything to hide, why is he hiding from her mother? Would you trust a boyfriend who didn't like her to be open with her parents? Maybe that's an inappropriate analogy, but is he behaving in a trustworthy way? And is it fair to ask a child that type of question to lead her to evaluate her father's behavior? She wouldn't be able to. I know because I wasn't able to. I didn't have enough life experience to know that my own parent would cause me harm or not have my interests at heart. My father didn't care about me, didn't want to spend time with me, didn't want to provide for me and I thought he was great!!! What daughter doesn't want to think the best of her dad?
I'm glad your mail monitoring is out in the open, too, and that your D has settled down. Perhaps she didn't realize just how difficult it was going to be to manage her dad's expectations of her and hopefully she is relieved to have your protection.
Keep documenting your STBXH's stuff. My d's are around the same age and they don't like anything I have to say very much these days. Just comes with the teenage, hormonal, all reactions/no thinking stage we've so been bracing ourselves for! :?
You're doing so great and everyone has had such great advice. I'm so glad you are seeing some good results. Hugs, MP
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Went to church then to the fair, had lots of fun.
SIL, asked me what was in the letter, BIL would not tell her, only I was not letting D read it.
No way I could tell her! I quickly told some truths but not the main most hurtful one.
I told BIL, SIL asked me what was said. He said "tell me again what EX said",
he said "EX had the wrong town"
I have known BIL 29 yrs, no surprize!!! But NEVER with me...
I went to school with SIL, and would never hurt her. I'ts not by Biz, and all the same not my 12yr olds.
Marta : EX already tried this one............Big joke......didn't work.
your D that you are the woman BIL is having an affair with!!
With her, the game is just beginning. She’s sweet, she’s vulnerable, above all, she wants his love, wants to believe in his goodness; she is only twelve. I wouldn’t expect him to go away anytime soon, if at all. Think of how many decades it takes for most of us to severe ties with our N families.
Today I had both D and BIL together to agree if D reads any thing that concerns his family to speak only to him, not to talk about such things to his wife or kids................
D says mom, "dad hasn't sent her anything like that and not to worry".
I wouldn’t count on him playing by the rules of the court, even if he is forced into supervised communication. He’ll find a way to pull D more and more into this sick game of hide and seek and coded communications.
I will remind her and the courts EX is not to share information about his brother.
If he finds away to continue with this type of attack, I will ask the court to consider a contempt of court.
I learned not to be his supply, all I can do is give my D the same and better tools as fast as possible.
Im stubborn to and he will have a fight on his hands. I never had support growing up, but she does.
I never knew what an N was until 1yr ago. I do now ...........The more I learn about this sickness the harder I want to fight for her safety.
He left you alone because he saw that there is no possibility of any supply from you
I know this is so true, I used to believe ex, just had alot of bad luck......I think now he makes a lot of bad decisions. I see how much others are trying to help him but he is choosing no compromise, not willing to come here to see his daughter. After awhile people just give up accept N's make bad choices.
They must poison everything that is good and loving and nurturing in this world; that is how they find the fuel to carry on and their only satisfaction out of life.
I guess this means my D needs to learn how to put up boundries, so she won't be N supply.
MP: You know this is very helpful, fathers court their daughters, meaning they pursue them not to be a boyfriend, but little girls want to be wanted. They want their fathers to want them so the father brings them gifts or shows them they are desireable.
If this person were not her father, you would have NO hesitation. He has not preserved the right to have unmonitored contact with this young girl because he is not trustworthy and not looking out for her (the true child) interests. The password thing is creepy. To twist his logic around, if a normal father/daughter relationship doesn't have anything to hide, why is he hiding from her mother? Would you trust a boyfriend who didn't like her to be open with her parents
I didn't catch the password thing at first, I wrote on the letter what the password is. I don't think she pays that much attention. I don't know if she e-mailed him, she may not read that close and didn't catch that he wanted her to e-mail him with the password. If she asks me about writing the password I may tell her and if she doesn't she knows what to type. She receives 3-4 a week and gets board with them. She must have 1 million necklaces, and little 1 dollar gifts. Im hoping she will think she didn't see the password at first, and later if he asked she as an answer. It won't matter on Tuesday the court will have the letter in question.
I will then explain the password thing. I just want a little time and have him off gaurd when he goes to court.
MP:
dad's expectations of her and hopefully she is relieved to have your protection.
As time goes on I hope she will be strong in this belief, I know when I was young sometimes I did not feel this way with my N-mother. I want her to have this deep inside that she is protected and loved.
Thanks for all your support...............OR
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Tuesday 8am CA time, I have to call the court to speak with the mediators regarding custody.
Today I received EX's court response. He lied on every level. I will let you all know how it goes.
D and I went to a move to get away for a few hours. I have not said too much about tomorrow, she has to speak with the mediators. I didn't want her to worry and not be able to sleep. In the Am I will let her know it's time for her to make the courts know what they need to understand about her future. We had talked last week about what she wanted to do.
She only wants to spend 2weeks in the summer. She worries about him driving with her while on his meds. She asked him to come here to visit for TG, but he said he will never come here. If she wants to see him, she must come to CA.
Her dad wants her back in CA, said he has more surguries but he can take care of her with no problem.
Claims he has had no contact with her with out my interferance. Im a drug addict not able to take care of myself or her.
All lies easy for them to be proven. A hair or blood test is standard and will make him the liar he is.
He wants to do what ever he can to make this more difficult on me.
He claims I was abusing him during his time of recovery from surgury. BLA BLA...........
I don't feel worried, I know I have taken examples, stories, everything I could think of.
I have a book of information emails and more and documented papers to prove everything.
He has one page of BS and nothing to show any proff. He spit out his poisin, talked about how sick he was and feel sorry for him
the father that only cares for his daughter with all his heart. Mom is the bad person keeping the love of his live away from him.
I will let you know what happens..........OR
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Hi OR,
I am glad that he is not a slick, glib liar, but one of those crude outrageous ones. Yes, I too see no problems in disproving the allegations like drugs, especially with the bizarre letters you have in your possession. Glad that you are feeling calm and in control. Seems like the perversity of it all has also hit home for D.
I guess this means my D needs to learn how to put up boundries, so she won't be N supply.
That's exactly it!!!! There is only so much you can do to protect her, but teaching her how to protect herself is one of the nicest gifts you can give her. She is blessed to have a nurturing mother to help her navigate through the murky waters.
All the best for tomorrw. May every loving force on this earth be by your side tomorrow to proect you and your daughter from harm. Please keep us posted on how it goes.
Love, Marta
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Today both D and I spoke with the mediator.
I had requested he not listen to the call and to have a private meeting.
She normally talkes to the person who filed first for divorce she goes to them first.
I had called and so she went with me first.
!. We are ok to stay in TX felt it was a good move. no problem.
She asked how the move took place, I explained how H said he would shoot me and for D's safety I did not let her know the exact day. (even though she found out from the school receptionist the day before)
How we were making the plans for sveral months and H decided he was going to leave us, and told me I was not going to TX. I told how when we got here to TX we found out about his/Ds large sum of money
That he wanted that money for himself. Also he is in CA says he lives on 700 mo but rent is 1,000 mo.
Im thankful now he has that money so he stays there.
2. She agrees to have him supervised by his brother in TX and if he didn't like it too bad.
This was based on his past, taking his meds while driving with D and where the police were involved.
I explained his emotional problems, she did not have them in front of her but assured me the Judge would need to see his mental evaluation.
3. She said he is making claims Im an alcoholic and our D has FAS. Fetal Alcoholic Sydrome.
She recommends I take my D to a doctor that can check her for FAS.
What a punk to say this. She is 12 a doctor has never said this to be true, I don't drink, did not drink while I was preg. Jerk, D is saying thanks dad, we just read somthing about they are often retarded and have learning problems. She got high 90's - 100 in her classes.
4. D spoke to the mediator, I don't know what was said, the mediator said she enjoyed the conversation and D was a sweet girl.
I asked if she could make him stop the letters regarding the adult content, she said it was not her place.
Told me to speak with the judge.
I felt she was on my side and understood my concerns. She had not talked to EX yet, so I will find out more after the report is complete. I thought she was helping me out and I got to tell her everything regarding D's safety concerns.
I have to go find a doctor for the FAS to check out D .................OR
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Back from the Dr's. for the FAS.
WHAT A JOKE, The doctor checked our D out with a physical, I told the doctor why we were there. She said D is to pretty to be FAS. children are born withl it's not something that develops later in life.
D was upset because the female doctor gave her a breast exam. We talked about the lower IQ's of FAS children and how she has 90-100 in her classes, allways been an extra smart kid. I guess FAS have smaller heads, the eyes and ears and hands are not developed fully.
We started laughing and could not believe how absurd her dad was being. She was not happy with dad, and finding herself being examed was not making her happy. She said all she could think of is being half naked ..........
The doctor will write a letter to the court to say she does not have FAS.
It makes me angry, Im one of those people that, took very good care of my health, I even swam up until the month of Oct when she was born. Her BD is the 26th and mine is Halloween.
I take care of myself and don't drink or smoke, so it just drives me nuts but did what the court asked.
She was giving me lots of hugs today..........I need every one of them.............OR
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OR, it's wonderful the way you are dealing with this awful situation. I am in awe of your coping skills.
It's horrible that your daughter basically had to be violated due to her father's lies. How is she doing with that?
Plucky
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OR, the more info you post about NH, the more bizarre and dangerous he sounds. I am so glad that mediator is on your side. I am impressed that D has self-confidence to say so that she was unhappy with being half-naked in an examination room. I know I at her age would not have been able to articulate that sort of thing, even to myself. It is a tribute to you as a mother.
Please keep us posted on follow-ups on this topic. Marta
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Plunky
How is she doing with that?
She is fine, I asked her today if she was ok, she said she was. I tried not to make a big deal, it's part of dealing with being a woman and that is what she is. The doctor told her she should do her self exams and that's just the way it went. I was in the room and she kept looking at me like why the heck did I have to remove my bra??? The doctor was good about it. When we were done, she was saying "thanks a lot daaaad"
She got another letter from him, he has an unhappy tone. I think the N-supply is not giving him what he wants. He had sent her a camera and expected her to take pictures and send the camera back to him.
Because in the past her school picutures, any pictures he would keep them in his storage. I would never see most of them. I told her we would develop the pictures onto CD and she could e-mail him the ones she felt he could have. Yes he bought the camera, but if any of the pictures were something he could make something out of I did not want him to have a chance. N's could take something innocent and twist and turn into evil.
So he tells her "I guess it's just too much for you to handle"
She told me she had not e-mailed him the pictures , she just got the pictures back last week.
Could be he wanted them to use in court and that didn't happen. N-supply is not doing giving back according to the N-rule book..........Im not going to push her I did ask her if she e-mailed him the pictures.
Marta
the more bizarre and dangerous he sounds.
I feel sorry for my D, I wish this was not so. The mediator was not done with EX, I pray she was not fooled by him after we talked.
Thanks for your support. OR
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Good luck with this, OR. I am glad your daughter recognises who caused her discomfort. And, if the mediator cannot see through your xH while a 12 year old can, shame on her/him.
Plucky
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UPdate from the court today..............The mediators report ready for Monday the 17th.
9 page report with statements from all three of us.
Looks good for me and ex was caught in one lie after the other.
I got a rare letter from my ex yesterday, with my heart pounding I left it in the car, I could not open it until this am. Its emotional black mail, he tells me, to leave his family alone or he will tell the wife, his brother has a girlfriend.
I had faxed the first letter to D over to the mediator, in her report she mentions my concern about D reading this letter. She asked my D if she knew about the letter of course she said no, (but thanks for bring it up)
ex claims he knew nothing about the move to tx and I took all his meds with me leaving him to die.
The mediator notes she read my reports and many e-mails able to confirm we indeed made plans many months ago to make the move and also D said the same.
ex lied about the gun, said we don't own a gun and I lied. I told her this was one reason the way I left to tx,keeping my plans quiet from them both for D's safety.
Mediator notes, ex tells her not to believe my D, that I would be there telling her what to say and would be listening on the phone.
She states it is very questionable father can take care of himself let alone another person.
1The recommendations are I get full legal and physical custody.
2.Ex must provide to the court a mental exam, and physical exam with regards to his health and all the meds he is taking and his ability to comply with the doctors reommendations and conditions that would impact his ability to parent. Only after the reports are reviewed would there even be a consideration for unsupervised visits.
( I read on his web site today he went to the doctors for a physical exam )
She did put in about a mental eval to be done on him. per my request.
3 Supervised visit in texas or if in CA supervised and during the day time only.
4. He is not to bring up his many medical problems to D and is to discuss them with me first and we both decide how to communicate them to her. ex talks about his death and how he will likley die soon. The mediator instructs him NOT to speak to her about this without talking to me first.
She states fathers insistant need to tell her about his poor health, would make her feel a need to care for him.
This is NOT her role. (underlined and in bold)
I let the mediator know how he over medicates, he blames me, telling her I gave him the meds thats why he was acting like he took too much.
D, told the Mediator how ex told her he would only take his meds, because I was with him and he needed them when he was around me.
Im gald this part is done, I feel I got what I wanted and the many e-mails and information I gave the court was reviewed and now up to the Judge on Monday.
Thanks for reading.......... OR
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OR,
OMG, this is a total 100% victory!!! I am sooo happy for you! It is soooooo amazing! I can just never believe it whenever anyone is able to defend themselves so successfully and righteously against Ns. Congrats!!!!!! Very inspiring indeed!
Marta
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OR,
that is wonderful news! All due to your persistence and good parenting. Let us know how the court thing goes. Should it be a slam dunk now?
Plucky
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Marta, and Plunky I would believe the judge would read her report and follow as close to her recommendations. She had lots of direction from me, I asked for the moon and I got it!!!
In her report she took some of my own words from the statements I typed up and sent to her.
Some of her writings were what many of you said were KEY issues, being his health problems were not D's role
Ex sent a letter to D, I did not give it to her, not going to show her letters anytime ex is going againist what the mediator said for him NOT to do.
Ex is telling her he is going to put her in his WILL...........
Mediator told him not to talk about death and how he may die soon.
What a set-up, dangle the bait then take it away when you don't do what he says.
Tells her how the reason she does not want to write him, is she must be too young, (sounded like a put down)
Now I can get D back with the T she likes, will not need ex's permission.
I used this need, to ask for full leagal custody. Ex knowing D will be talking about him may keep his crazy talk in check.
I also think the mediator making ex submit to physicatiric evaluation will make him not want to push custody.
I almost wonder if he will even show up.
I faxed over his letter to me to the court, I don't know if they will use it, ex said he was bringing this letter to court, I think because he said he will bring a copy she may go ahead and submit.
He is Telling me to act like a human and don't be a B##ch like my Mother.
He had these rules someone wiser then him said about raising kids.
He telles me to LIVE BY these rules.........He forgets he can't tell me how to live........DUH!!!!!
He also tells me about how he will tell the dirty little secret about his brother, if brother doesn't do what he says.
I sent this letter just to hit home how much hate ex has for those that don't make him happy.
I fear that if I had a BF, he would no doubt make trouble where ever his D is concerned.
I have been busy, D and I are working on painting cardboard boxes and making bandannas for the local Pet adoption center. I love to paint, so been busy painting fishes and fun things on the cat boxes.
D is at a slumber party tonight.
The court papers main subject line says MOVE AWAY, the 1st judge and mediator have said I should be fine to stay here in TX. I hope I get the same judge and the one on monday will be ok with me staying in TX too!
Thanks for reading, Im a bit on edge, will be painting more boxes tonight to help me stay calm.... OR