Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Chicken on October 16, 2005, 02:27:01 PM
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Hi Gang! :)
just wondering what people think about therapy in general and if they feel it really works...and if it does work, how? How do you know you are not doing damage to yourself!!!????
I have been in counselling about two months now but I find it so painful!!!!!
I find myself on the verge of tears constantly, especially just after a session. I find myself analysing everything I do and I feel so vulnerable and open. I really feel lost over who I am and I have lost all confidence in myself.
has anyone experienced this?
I go through points (usually once a week) where I think I will give up going. I wonder if this is anything to do with the fact that I experience the same thing with my relationships, they have all been on again off again. I have had this dynamic with my therapist also, i used to see her before, i then quit, then got back to her again and now I want to leave her again! The topics we cover is making my personality split and I feel like I am out of depth and loosing control, sometimes I want it, sometimes I don't, don't know which side of me to obey!! -hope I am making sense!!
I tell her about my wanting to end my sessions with her. I think I have some sort of intimacy avoidance. It doesn't feel like I am avoiding intimacy as such, I am just avoiding the pain it brings, because I do crave intimacy, doesn't everyone?
When I spend a lot of time with my friends (llike a weekend away etc), I get a bit sick of them and I need to get away, I always thought this was normal. After I spend lots of time with them, I experience some kind of "wierdness", like i want to get away on my own, which I usually hide very well, but I feel like they sometimes sense it too and space is needed in order to set the relationship back to normal... I always thought this was normal but I think my therapist doesn't. I am not sure I want to hand over my power to her on this one as I'm not sure I want to suddenly realise that my friendships are just as messed up as my relationships! I always found solace in my friendships, don't want them to come crashing down aswell.
I feel like I am being broken down! -stripped of everything... It feels awful! does anyone think this is really necessary?
how do I know if my therapist is going to mess me up?
My dilemma is:
Do I run for cover?
or,
Work this thing through...
Sorry if I've been rambling, I guess I'm trying to make sense of it all... can't see the wood for the trees where I'm at just now...
Any feedback or stories or advice appreciated!
x Suffering Selkie! x
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My own advice would be to tell your t exactly what you have said here, and ask her to slow down.
If she either won't or can't, then find another t.
Some people can go at one pace, some at another. It sounds as if the pace you are following is too fast for you at present. What you describe in relation to your friends is the normal reaction of a basically introverted person; you enjoy spending time with people, but find it draining and have to spend time alone to recharge your batteries. Therapy is a very intense relationship, and for those who find any company draining, it can be exceptionally difficult and demanding. Your therapist should be able to understand this.
An alternative might be to see her fortnightly, rather than every week. I tried that at one time when I felt pretty much as you describe, and it worked much better.
Good luck.
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Hi Selkie. I'm sorry to hear that you are having such an uncomfortable time in therapy.
I second everything October said and would like to add a few more points of my own.
I don't think anyone "needs" therapy. I do think most people need healing. Therapy is often a good way to get help doing the difficult and painful work needed to heal, but it isn't the only way. However, if you went to therapy and nothing came up, or only very little and you were able to deal with it easily based on your current resources, then it probably wouldn't help you heal at all. The way to healing and growth goes through feeling the things you don't want to feel and exploring the things you don't even want to be aware of. And most importantly, to RE-INTERPRET those things so they no longer cause you fear or pain. A good therapist can help you a lot with that. Why go without that help and support?
I agree very strongly that telling your therapist ALL of what you wrote above is a very good thing. At the very least, you can have your voice and be heard. Print out this post and read it word for word if you're afraid you will forget or get distracted. Ask your therapist for an un-interrupted time to read this to them. Ask your therapist to slow down. Heck, ask them to remind you to slow down if you get going too fast for your own good. I felt like most of my therapy was both way too slow and way too fast at the same time! If your therapist can't or won't listen or help you with these things, then find one who can. You deserve the support and help of a good therapist in working through these tough issues in your life.
I also NEED my alone time or solitude. I seem to need more than most people. I'm OK with that now. Being around people is great, but I start to feel it physically when I need to have some alone time. Sometimes that happens somewhere I can't or won't leave like work, a function for my daughter, etc. In these cases I will at least move out of the group for a while. Go to the bathroom, get a breath of freash air, get a snack or a drink, whatever to find a place with fewer people. Sometimes I can leave, so I do. :) There are other times when I don't feel this need. I don't question it anymore. If I feel the need I do something about. If not, then I stay and have the best time I can. I'll also put in another plug for "The Highly Sensitive Person" by Elaine Aron. That book describes my life, and I finally appreciate myself and my sensitivity for the gifts that they are. These things don't get much popular support in this culture. After all, you don't get onTV unless you are a flaming extrovert! (Hm, maybe I should start a thread on well-known introverts. Probably been done here already. :))
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Hi Gang! :)
just wondering what people think about therapy in general and if they feel it really works...and if it does work, how? How do you know you are not doing damage to yourself!!!????
Therapy does not work. You do. I know it is a repeat. I've said this on this board several times. No therapist can do anything for you. I do all the work in therapy. My t adds coments here and there but most of my work is done through journaling and writing my books and some artwork.
For me therapy is about learning to have a voice and having a voice. It is about speaking out and being heard.
I have been in counselling about two months now but I find it so painful!!!!!
I find myself on the verge of tears constantly, especially just after a session. I find myself analysing everything I do and I feel so vulnerable and open. I really feel lost over who I am and I have lost all confidence in myself.
has anyone experienced this?
I would question going to therapy and coming out feeling crappier and crappier every time. Not every therapeutic relationship is a good one. And yes it is a relationship between two people. It has to be a match of personalities. And sometimes it doesn't work.
I don't feel crappy all the time. In the beginning I was VERY vulnerable and cried a whole lot. I felt raw on the inside and outside. I no longer feel that way. However I didn't lose all confidence in myself. Rather the longer I was in therapy the more confidence I gained. The more I got to know myself, accept myself and love myself.
I go through points (usually once a week) where I think I will give up going. I wonder if this is anything to do with the fact that I experience the same thing with my relationships, they have all been on again off again. I have had this dynamic with my therapist also, i used to see her before, i then quit, then got back to her again and now I want to leave her again! The topics we cover is making my personality split and I feel like I am out of depth and loosing control, sometimes I want it, sometimes I don't, don't know which side of me to obey!! -hope I am making sense!!
I tell her about my wanting to end my sessions with her. I think I have some sort of intimacy avoidance. It doesn't feel like I am avoiding intimacy as such, I am just avoiding the pain it brings, because I do crave intimacy, doesn't everyone?
Is it possible that when you get close to some of your real issues you get frightened and want to bolt? I've had this in my own therapy.
But then again, if your t is a bad match you might feel like bolting a lot. I did with several horrible t's.
I have felt this at times when dealing with my current t and I like him. It is usually when a heavy duty issue comes up and stares me in the face.
Personality split? Confused about what you mean. Sorry.
When I spend a lot of time with my friends (llike a weekend away etc), I get a bit sick of them and I need to get away, I always thought this was normal. After I spend lots of time with them, I experience some kind of "wierdness", like i want to get away on my own, which I usually hide very well, but I feel like they sometimes sense it too and space is needed in order to set the relationship back to normal... I always thought this was normal but I think my therapist doesn't. I am not sure I want to hand over my power to her on this one as I'm not sure I want to suddenly realise that my friendships are just as messed up as my relationships! I always found solace in my friendships, don't want them to come crashing down aswell.
Actually it could be normal if you are introverted and especially if you are INFP. INFPs like to spend time on their own to charge their batteries. If I am around a lot of people or a single person even for a couple of hours, I want, no actually need to get away from them for a couple of days. I need a lot of physical, emotional and mental space. My h is only now accepting of this. He used to fight it. For some people it feels right. An extrovert charges their batteries being around people and action.
My dilemma is:
Do I run for cover?
or,
Work this thing through...
I would say to trust your gut feelings - your intuition.
Definitely don't let a therapist define you and tell you your need for time alone is abnormal.
Normal is a setting on your dryer. I remember reading that in a book and laughing out loud.
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I also NEED my alone time or solitude. I seem to need more than most people. I'm OK with that now. Being around people is great, but I start to feel it physically when I need to have some alone time. Sometimes that happens somewhere I can't or won't leave like work, a function for my daughter, etc. In these cases I will at least move out of the group for a while. Go to the bathroom, get a breath of freash air, get a snack or a drink, whatever to find a place with fewer people. Sometimes I can leave, so I do. :) There are other times when I don't feel this need. I don't question it anymore. If I feel the need I do something about. If not, then I stay and have the best time I can. I'll also put in another plug for "The Highly Sensitive Person" by Elaine Aron. That book describes my life, and I finally appreciate myself and my sensitivity for the gifts that they are. These things don't get much popular support in this culture. After all, you don't get onTV unless you are a flaming extrovert! (Hm, maybe I should start a thread on well-known introverts. Probably been done here already. :))
Hi longtire,
I'm with you - introverted. I get my short time out in this world and then love to come home and be alone.
I get on sensory overload with information and things I see. I have a photographic memory and find it hard to filter out what I want to remember. I've gotten better at this through the years but still it is overwhelming. I see a lot of what other people don't even notice. My h has adhd and he does the same thing. Mine isn't due to adhd though.
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-Thanks Longtire and October...
I am really confused as to what to do, I am definately going to suggest sessions once a fortnight, I think that's a good idea, thanks for that. As for whether the counselling is working or not, I just don't know. I can't seem to figure out if the pain I am feeling is part of the healing or just self sabotage.
Longtire said: "The way to healing and growth goes through feeling the things you don't want to feel and exploring the things you don't even want to be aware of. And most importantly, to RE-INTERPRET those things so they no longer cause you fear or pain. A good therapist can help you a lot with that. Why go without that help and support?"
I am not sure if the pain I am feeling is me feeling the things I previously didn't want to be aware of as you mention.
I am discovering deep hurts from my childhood and realising that I have never received any form of love, care, attention or affection growing up. I was never listened to. Neither of my parents had any interest in what I did or who I was. I was ignored and neglected. I was given so much freedom to do whatever I wanted when I wanted that it made me feel uncared for and that I wasn't really of worth... as a result I did get myself into potentially very dangerous situations. For example, when I was seventeen, my brother was ill in hospital, I took a half day from school to see him in the hospital, so I hitch hiked into the city in my school uniform!!! I was allowed hitch hike all over the country, my parents refused to drive me anywhere. They just didn't seem to care!
There are a lot more painful memories than mentioned above that I seem to be re-living. I am not sure if re-visiting such painful memories is doing me any good. I am not sure if my sessions are working, I just seem to have lost all sense of judgement. I feel like I am so vulnerable that if someone asked me to jump, i would ask how high? well, I'm not that bad, but i am trying to express that I am very confused and malleable and worried about where i may be led.
Is it possible that when you re-visit such memories, that you sort of regress to the state of mind you were in then? except this time you are taking your adult self along to take a look?
x Selkie x
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Hi Sallying,
It's interesting that you say that I have to do the work in therapy, I think I was depending on my therapist to fix me and certainly to define me. I have been disappointed that she isn't meeting those needs, but maybe it is good that she isn't!! -they are things that must come from me. I have to come to the defence of my therapist, she is a lovely woman and basicallly will do anything the way I want to do it. If I wanted to take it slowly, she would. If I wanted to cut down our sessions, she wouldn't have a problem with that. She has allowed me to come and go, she has always treated me with kindness, professionalism and respect. No problems there. She lets me lead the way and it's strange as I've never really had that before. I have always been, or rather allowed myself to be, dominated.
Sallying, you have given me good advice here, and that is to do the work myself. I think I need to write more. Journal my thoughts. Put them in their right boxes etc. I know that I need to write about stuff as it gets it out so much better. I know this as i have discovered things, so many things via this site from simply writing about them!
Thank you for that
x Selkie x
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Is it possible that when you re-visit such memories, that you sort of regress to the state of mind you were in then? except this time you are taking your adult self along to take a look?
x Selkie x
For me it goes beyond that because I am multiple. I have wee ones who come out inside and tell me about the bad memories and things which happened.
I've spoke with others who describe it like you did above. For everyone it is different.
My h's Nparents were like yours, neglectful. At age 5 he was told to get his haircut. He had to cross very busy intersections in Hollywood, CA., by himself! Frequently his mother would ask him to go to the store by himself. This started at age 5 and continued throughout his childhood. That is profound neglect to expect a child to cross busy streets in a city alone. It was a different time but still a dangerous situation. My Nparents were the same, placing me in vulnerable situations where there was clear neglect. I went to the store for my mother when I was a child too. I had to walk or ride a bike for 4 city blocks to get to the store.
You were vulnerable, Selkie, and your parents placed you in a more vulnerable and precarious position. They didn't protect you. They neglected you.
((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))))
You were voiceless child. I can so much relate to that pain of being not known, not cared for, not listened to and not paid attention to.
And I can relate to placing myself in dangerous situations. As a very young child (and up to a teenager) I would play in a gulley. This gulley would fill with flash floods when it rained. I used to climb up the cement drainage pipes and listen for the rushing water. Then I would race the rushing water out of the cement pipes and scramble up the steep embankment of the gulley to freedom. Very crazy but then that was a reflection of my crazy childhood. I was reenacting what was done to me.
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I am not sure if the pain I am feeling is me feeling the things I previously didn't want to be aware of as you mention.
I am discovering deep hurts from my childhood and realising that I have never received any form of love, care, attention or affection growing up. I was never listened to. Neither of my parents had any interest in what I did or who I was. I was ignored and neglected. I was given so much freedom to do whatever I wanted when I wanted that it made me feel uncared for and that I wasn't really of worth... as a result I did get myself into potentially very dangerous situations. For example, when I was seventeen, my brother was ill in hospital, I took a half day from school to see him in the hospital, so I hitch hiked into the city in my school uniform!!! I was allowed hitch hike all over the country, my parents refused to drive me anywhere. They just didn't seem to care!
You were neglected both emotionally and physically. I was as well. I realize now that my parents just didn't have a clue how to be parents. They weren't mean or out to get me, they just curled up into themselves and never really came out. Their parents had never taught them, so I couldn't learn (anything!? :shock:) from them. It has taken me a long time and a lot of feeling my un-processed feelings from back then to get to this level of understanding. For me, it is not re-living, though it feels that way. It is finally accepting, acknowleging and even loving and cherishing those feelings. MY feelings, that I haven't let be part of me for so long.
In the last week, I finally figured out what I am doing in therapy these days. I am finally processing all those overwhelming feelings, memories, and experiences that I had as a kid, but was completely unequipped to handle. My parents didn't help, and even contributed to quite a bunch of it. On top of that, I was a very aware little boy. I took everything in (still do :)). My parents seemed to be numb the vast majority of the time. They simply avoided reality so they didn't have to deal with anything (they were not equipped either). I didn't have the ability to numb out then (I learned later :(), so I spent the first 8 years or so of my life feeling completely overwhelmed by everything. One of my earliest memories (~2yo) was going to a basketball game, but it was so loud and I couldn't shut it out even with my hands over my ears. I cried the whole time until we finally left early. That is pretty much how I felt for most of the start of my life, completely and utterly overwhelmed in every way.
There are a lot more painful memories than mentioned above that I seem to be re-living. I am not sure if re-visiting such painful memories is doing me any good. I am not sure if my sessions are working, I just seem to have lost all sense of judgement. I feel like I am so vulnerable that if someone asked me to jump, i would ask how high? well, I'm not that bad, but i am trying to express that I am very confused and malleable and worried about where i may be led.
Going back to put these feelings back into place either causes or requires (both?) a change in viewpoint. If that point of view is changing from something familiar (unvalued) to something completely new (being valuable and valued), you might not even recognize the landscape. That is enough to send anyone off, in my opinion.
Is it possible that when you re-visit such memories, that you sort of regress to the state of mind you were in then? except this time you are taking your adult self along to take a look?
I had to get in touch with my "inner family" to do a lot of this work. There is me at several different ages, as well as some other functions and abilities personified. Once I started becoming aware of these separate pieces, I was able to start finding out what they did and why and what they were really meant to do. As I got better at taking care of myself, I was able to get the different me's to trust the adult me in the here and now. That cleared up a lot of unintentional self-sabotage and lets me operate from an adult position almost all the time now. Of course, your experience may vary, and I have read other people here talking about how they can regress when doing this work too.
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I have to come to the defence of my therapist, she is a lovely woman and basicallly will do anything the way I want to do it.
x Selkie x
One small point, Selkie. I am slightly troubled by the similarity between your therapist being quite so flexible (although in general that would seem to be a good thing), and what you describe of your parents
I was given so much freedom to do whatever I wanted when I wanted that it made me feel uncared for and that I wasn't really of worth.
If there is a part of you which is looking for someone to not let you take control; to be a responsible, caring adult, and help you to find your path as an adult would help a child, then too much freedom and accommodation from your t might feel to you like neglect. If it does, then it could lead in turn to transference, and to the extreme reactions that you are having.
I feel like I am so vulnerable that if someone asked me to jump, i would ask how high? well, I'm not that bad, but i am trying to express that I am very confused and malleable and worried about where i may be led.
This is consistent with what you have said elsewhere. You are wanting someone to tell you how to do whatever it is you are trying to do. We all need this at some point in our lives. The sad thing is you didn't have it before, and you don't have it now. What you are still searching for, imo, is the parent-figure who will help you, rather than abandon you to do the best you can with what you have. The repetition of the insecurity may be causing the feelings to come back. I don't think you will be led astray, because you still have your adult reasoning self; you still get to choose. But you are terrified of what it might be like, because you have never had it, at the same time as desperately needing to know that you are safe in someone else's hands. Something that has never been true of you before.
I think this might be worth considering with your therapist, and if possible, work with her to change the dynamic into a more structured, and less 'freefall' feeling one. Maybe establish together some ground rules for both of you, and then make them stick. If that doesn't work, then find a t with the same positive attitude, but perhaps a slightly more directive approach, which does not cause the same feelings. (As if that were easy!!)
I find myself analysing everything I do and I feel so vulnerable and open. I really feel lost over who I am and I have lost all confidence in myself.
I went back to look again at what you said. This sounds very much to me like a child who is being neglected by its parents. I know what that feels like.
Just a thought. Ignore if it seems daft.
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Selkie,
I am discovering deep hurts from my childhood and realising that I have never received any form of love, care, attention or affection growing up. I was never listened to. Neither of my parents had any interest in what I did or who I was. I was ignored and neglected. I was given so much freedom to do whatever I wanted when I wanted that it made me feel uncared for and that I wasn't really of worth... as a result I did get myself into potentially very dangerous situations.
This describes my childhood and adolescence to a T. However, I did not hitch rides--I was allowed to take the car as soon as I got my permit so my parents wouldn't have to be bothered with driving me somewhere (we lived a bit out in the country). I was molested at age 9 and date raped at 16 because I was drunk. My only sibling was 10 years younger than I. As soon as I left for college and they no longer had their built-in babysitter, they would just leave him alone at the house every weekend for all their many social engagements.
I was in therapy for a year before I could start talking about the pain of my childhood. Before that, all our discussions revolved around my xh and all the problems and issues he had and the pain of the divorce. My T never pushed me to go further back early on, but eventually saw that I would need to do that to really begin the healing process. He encouraged me to discuss that hurt at my own pace and in whatever form it took. Once the damn broke, it all started spilling out. I cried and hurt a lot, but it was the beginning of the true healing. Through all of this, he always validated my pain and anger.
My T has not healed me, I have healed myself. He has always explained that his methods are to have the patient go deeper and deeper inside of themselves to heal from the inside out. He believes that this is the only way to true and lasting healing. The T my xh sees (or used to, at least) is of the mind that you treat the outside and just make the patient feel good about themselves in the moment. Of course, this would work for an n since they will never have to visit that very deeply seated pain that has caused their condition in the first place.
If you are like me, therapy is necessary to finally get beyond the pain. I would have continued in denial that I had any real problems and just found new ways to disguise the pain. Now I understand it, can talk about it and no longer deny it. It has created a sense of happiness and freedom that I never knew existed. Only you know if this can be created by you with your current T or if you need to look further. IMHO, I don't think it is messing you up from what you describe, but forcing you to go to painful places that all of us are avoiding. Perhaps you just need to fine tune the process a little to make it a little less painful.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Hi Sallying, Longtire, October & Brigid,
Thank you for your invaluable feedback and opinions. I started my journal last night and felt great relief after, felt like I was doing a bit of weeding in an overgrown garden.
Sallying, let me clarify what I mean by the "splitting" I said earlier, I just meant that I get kind of confused. Like I'm in between two minds. I want counselling one minute and don't want it the next. This kind of to-ing and fro-ing happens me all the time and I find it extremely draining, like i'm never of one mind on things, always second guessing myself and doubting my judgement...makes decision making very difficult.
October, can you clarify why it is troubling that my therapist may resemble my parents? I'm not entirely sure what you mean and would be interested to hear your opinion.
I have been really freaking out this week (as you know) when I came back home and began processing my session with my therapist, i found myself getting really angry and confused. It seems to me that she jumps from subject to subject too much without any closure on the one before.
I am left feeling open and confused and feeling like I am a flawed individual. Maybe this is all in my head, I am not so sure. What really made me angry is that she is starting to fix things that aren't broken. Last time we chatted about my friendships which I cherish and which in my opinion have always been healthy and trouble-free unlike my relationships. I have many friends whom I see every so often, I can talk to my friends in depth about anything and they have always been there for me and are always telling me they love me (and they act like it too). I made the mistake of telling her that after spending too much time with them I experience "a wierdness" and I feel like I need to get away and be by myself. I always thought this was normal but she made me feel like I have some sort of problem!
I am perfectly satisfied with my friendships but I found myself going along with her on that one... until I came to my senses after. Now I am afraid because I don't know if what she says is true and I have messed up friendships or if she is just grasping at straws, what if I am in denial? I went to her to try to solve my problems in my relationships with men! I am not sure i trust her opinion now! maybe I am being too harsh on her. Maybe i am experiencing transference. I am certainly feeling like I do when in a relationship with a man, like I want to bolt...so is this useful stuff? All I know is that I am scared.
I don't think my therapist is intentionally messing with my head. She is a lovely woman and I don't think it's her style!
Brigid, we haven't talked about my childhood in counselling yet...and I do feel the need but I don't think I can yet as I hate crying in front of her and I am not sure I would stop if I started. As soon as I walk into that room, I feel I am going to start bawling my eyes out and that's even before I start talking about general stuff!
October said: This is consistent with what you have said elsewhere. You are wanting someone to tell you how to do whatever it is you are trying to do. We all need this at some point in our lives. The sad thing is you didn't have it before, and you don't have it now. What you are still searching for, imo, is the parent-figure who will help you, rather than abandon you to do the best you can with what you have. The repetition of the insecurity may be causing the feelings to come back. I don't think you will be led astray, because you still have your adult reasoning self; you still get to choose. But you are terrified of what it might be like, because you have never had it, at the same time as desperately needing to know that you are safe in someone else's hands. Something that has never been true of you before
This is how I feel to a T so what do I do now? Do I hand over myself to her or do I trust myself? Either way I am not satisfied and I am split again as to which way to go...
I guess I need to talk to her about all this stuff, it may be of use
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I found there were times I needed therapy, and times I needed a break from therapy....and the therapist knew this and thought it was pretty normal.
Healing happens at different stages, you have to trust what feels right for you and go at your own pace, and grow in your own way.
Take care ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Hi Write and all,
Yeah, by writing this post and reading your responses, I have done some huge soul searching via writing.
I have not stopped writing. I have started asking myself questions and I am answering them. I have come to the conclusion for the first time in my life that i am struggling with a complete loss of my "self".
I do not listen to myself, I am not sensitive to my own needs.
I have not got a voice. Why would I have a voice when I have been suppressing it all these years? I put other people and their opinions before my own. I doubt my own judgement. I deny myself happiness, I give myself shit (pardon my French but i'm on a roll here) relationships as I feel like I don't deserve any better. I allow people to abuse me physically, mentally and emotionally. I spot someone who will hurt me and allow them in to my life. All abusers welcome here. If you play games and manipulate me, even better, because then I can't figure out what's real and unreal and who's at fault and it keeps me from rescuing myself.
What kind of message am I giving myself?
I am basically telling my self (through my actions and my behaviour towards myself) that I am worthless. I am not worth listening to. That everyone else is better than me so lets listen to what they think and lets go with what they advise. But they must always be around because you rely on them to tell you what to do, say, think and behave. Everything must be run by them. I hand over my power and control of myself to them. Before i do so, I make sure they are not reliable.
I have abandoned myself for years, I have picked up where my parents left off. I carried on this cycle.
I am not a victim but a perpetrator. I have been so busy blaming this person and that person and not understanding why I have these people in my life. I have these people in my life because i am that person, these people are mere manifestations of my self. I am responsible. I see my self in my abuser.
This may seem pretty basic to some of you- but for me, I have just woken up to it. I have always heard it said, but have never really experienced it. I can see it now and it's so big. I feel such a deep sadness well up inside me when i think how I have treated myself. I am sure I will learn to love myself on my journey back to me, but for now I am happy to see and be aware of how i have been treating myself.
Thank you all for hearing me and allowing me to speak!
x Selkie x
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(((Selkie)))
Thank you for starting this thread because there is so much of me in it. The introversion, self-doubt, childhood neglect of feelings, all of it. I wasn't put in danger by default of neglect, but I very much carry around the feeling that no one cares enough to protect me, to advocate for me. Midlife hormones have helped with the advocacy! 8)
Teh advice above is really terrific. Just wanted to add that perhaps it would help just to clarify things with your T like you have here. Eg, "you know, I brought up my friendships the other day not because of any problems with them, but that I wonder if it is normal to need some time to myself........." or what have you. This might feel like you are correcting your T, but you are just steering the conversation back where you want it and explaining why.
This steering of the conversation will also probably feel quite unnatural because you probably have not had the chance or felt empowered to do so before. At least this is very true of me. I never correct people during conversations. Gosh wonder why? Oh the fallout of growing up with Ns...
As for the actual introversion part, I still struggle with accepting it. I still wonder if I'm really an introvert (I am) or if this is because I grew up isolated by my family and their restrictions. It helps me sometimes to know that valuable work is done by people who work alone, although this is never recognized in our society. (what is except for celebrity status??? I digress.) There is a pretty neat book called A Party of One which is sort of a battle cry for loners. But I still wonder why I cannot thrive in the same situations that, what? 90% of other people? do. I thought going to football games was stupid esp. if you were not interested in the game, but everyone went. I cannot stand the herd mentality and wonder if I am just simply a contrarian. If you all say "black", I'm going to stick up for white. And gray too.
I agree that feelings can be so overwhelming that they are scary and make us feel messed up. And that it is true that these feelings were created years ago and we can only now begin to deal with them. If you are feeling overwhelmed there is probably a deeper truth to it, a pain deeper than you could know before.
I previously wrote about an out of the blue experience with an acquaintance saying something inappropriate to me. There was no malice or anything. In fact it was almost like a bolt from the sky, the messenger didn't matter. I totally over-reacted to what was said (fortunately I kept my thoughts to myself). So I sat with my overreaction for a while and wondered about it. I mean, it was powerful, I was shaking, sweating, tingling. It was a physical reaction to the realization that the hostility towards women in my family was palpable in my house growing up and I had to steel myself against it every day. I told my H about it and he told me later that his thought was that things were worse than what I had described. That women were totally second class citizens in my family.
The reason I share this story is because I might have felt "messed up" (and I did) but it was also a sign of healing, that barriers had been cleared away and I could look the monster in the eye. And then I could tell it, "Uh, so that's what you look like...see ya!" and run like h*ll until I could face it again. :shock: Because the monster will still be there when I can stand to take another look.
Hang in there Selkie! Hugs, MP
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Congratulations Selkie, you have taken the first BIG step toward healing. Accepting that loss of self and finding the path toward regaining it (or having it for the first time), is the beginning IMO. I had to accept how I had always felt unworthy of being truly loved, that I was worthy of being loved by someone who was not damaged, needy or troubled in some way, that I was entitled to have my own dreams and aspirations apart from my partner, and that I could be comfortable being alone. I dealt with the fact that every important man in my life had hurt me very deeply. I learned to accept that I was a good person, with many fine qualities to offer my friends and potential partners.
You will have to go through a lot of sh*& before you get to that point. But until you turn over all those rocks and deal with the funk that is buried under them, you won't be completely healed. It hurts a lot, but you are still relatively young and have many years ahead of you that you can enjoy once you get beyond all of this.
Hang in there darlin'. I'm pulling for you.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Hi Sallying, Longtire, October & Brigid,
Thank you for your invaluable feedback and opinions. I started my journal last night and felt great relief after, felt like I was doing a bit of weeding in an overgrown garden.
Good for you for journaling.
My habit used to be that after therapy I would write and write until I felt finished. During that time I would put a lot of things into perspective.
Sallying, let me clarify what I mean by the "splitting" I said earlier, I just meant that I get kind of confused. Like I'm in between two minds. I want counselling one minute and don't want it the next. This kind of to-ing and fro-ing happens me all the time and I find it extremely draining, like i'm never of one mind on things, always second guessing myself and doubting my judgement...makes decision making very difficult.
I went through a lot of that during therapy in the beginning. For me it was the intense issues which therapy always uncovered. I wanted to escape from the pain. Even years later I still sometimes go through these feelings of wanting to throw in the towel. I'm in one of those right now. Yes, I want to. No, I don't need it. And I am going through intense, gut wrenching grieving. The pain is very real and something part of me wants to escape.
October said: This is consistent with what you have said elsewhere. You are wanting someone to tell you how to do whatever it is you are trying to do. We all need this at some point in our lives. The sad thing is you didn't have it before, and you don't have it now. What you are still searching for, imo, is the parent-figure who will help you, rather than abandon you to do the best you can with what you have. The repetition of the insecurity may be causing the feelings to come back. I don't think you will be led astray, because you still have your adult reasoning self; you still get to choose. But you are terrified of what it might be like, because you have never had it, at the same time as desperately needing to know that you are safe in someone else's hands. Something that has never been true of you before
This is how I feel to a T so what do I do now? Do I hand over myself to her or do I trust myself? Either way I am not satisfied and I am split again as to which way to go...
I guess I need to talk to her about all this stuff, it may be of use.
Of course there is another option ...
I've been in therapy with abusive, controlling therapists who tried to reign over me.
Now I've gone the other direction. I am reparenting myself through using healthy male role models I had in grade school. There were three men (two teachers and one principal) who gave me support, care and love in small ways. I am incorporating their demonstrations of love into my life. I am internalizing them into myself.
So in my case I have NOT handed myself over to my t. Nor have I given him my full trust. Rather I decided that I have within me ALL the tools and ALL the resources to heal.
My t also knew that when he met me I would be taking over the reins for my therapy. He's taken a hands off approach. This is unlike most therapy and it has worked well for me.
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Hii, I have been in both individual therapy and marriage counseling with my husband for 6 years. We have gone through many marriage counselors and it can be very damaging. I was so miserable because they seem to side with the calmest patient. I was so unhappy because my husband fooled them time and time again. When I would become upset, cry and protest I was pretty much written off. I would participate in these sessions and my husband sat there like a bump on a log, so they seemed to focus on me. It is very frightening when you put your mental and emotional health in someones hands and are ignored or not taken seriously. My husband has Naricisitic Personality Disorder which was udiagnosed for 5 out the 6 years we went to therapy. If alarms are going off and you are not comfortable, keep looking. Not all therapists are good therapists.
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Sorry to hear about your bad experience with your therapist dlk, I'm wondering what would have happened if you stood up for yourself? Did you just let it happen? or did you approach your therapist about your feelings? or did you just run a mile? in a situation like that, I wonder is it better to run a mile or to confront? If you are reading this, DavidP, I'm sure you will have plenty to say about that! Do we contribute to a situation by running from it? Because we are ultimately left with the feelings that made us a victim. This is an area I am not entirely sure about...
The reason I am bringing this up is because it pertains to my situation with my therapist. In all fairness to her, I don't think she is controlling, abusive or anything like that. I just think that she can't figure me out! Ha Ha Ha! I am not sure she is working for me. BUT!... can I make it work for me, is the question. I am tempted to run a mile, but surely I should try to remedy the situation first. I think I should go to her, explain the situation and then take hold of the reigns which i am not comfortable doing. I am someone who has always been led you see.
I have a feeling my therapist would be more than happy to accomodate me in how I would like to steer the session. I want her to encourage me to slot into my self and stay there! I want her to guide me back when i start to break apart from myself. I want her to show me how I am mistreating myself. At the moment I feel like she is busying herself with trying to find what's wrong with me. She flits from painful subject to painful subject leaving it undealt with and leaving me wide open. She is not always right either. I don't think she is aware of it, and I have let her assume what she likes about me as I figured I was none the wiser. I feel like she thinks I am a bad/messed up person and that she thinks I'm at fault in everything I do. Now this could be a huge case of transference, i don't know. You see, I experienced this so much as a kid. If I would go to my Mother about an argument I had with someone, or anything, she would always take the side of the other person, thinking they know better, always putting me at fault. She would never validate my feelings or my view of things. I'm sure this is where i picked up my feelings of worthlessness.
So...I am feeling this now with my therapist. It's causing me a lot of anxiety and i am not sure if I am imagining it or jumping to conclusions. I am feeling hyper sensitive these days. I feel like I have shed all my layers and I am wide open and am unbelieveably vulnerable... because i am feeling this way, I have to be very careful. Because I am being hyper careful and hyper afraid, I feel like I jump to conclusions unnecessarily, like an over protective mother over a newly born babe. I simply don't trust my judgement as I am too changeable! I have to let someone in to help me. In that sense, I think October's post is right, I need to slow down with my therapist, so I can suss her out and see if I can trust her. If she doesn't respond to my requests, then fair enough, i will have to give her the flick.
MP, thanks so much for your advice on what to say regarding friends issue, I have been so anxious with how to approach her about it, I have been afraid it will come out the wrong way! I don't want it to sound like a confrontation.
Brigid, Thank you.
x Selkie x
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Hi Selkie,
Oh I just want to give you a big hug because a lot of the things you are talking about in this thread resonate so closely with me. I have had a few therapists in my time Selkie. Some of them were ok and some of them weren't. One of them was just damned abusive. Anyway I just used to run... I would just not go back. i think now with this therapist I have learned to say in the session that I am unhappy with something or the other thing I do is switch off and now I learn to say when that is happening. I ahve learned in my career that not all counsellors are good just because they are counsellors. I am a great believer that if you train to be a therapist you have to have had a lot of therapy yourself but quite often that does not happen. The therapist I have found this time is right for me and even when she challenges me or goes to places that I don't like I insrinsically know that. This is a new experience for me as generally as you know I do not have a firm decision on anything as i have very little sense of self.
Remember you need to be leading the session. You can take what YOU want into therapy. If you don't want to go into your relationships with your friends, try and say to her. I know that this uis harder than it sounds, but remember that you are paying for this time. THIS IS YOUR SPACE not hers, and whether she is a lovely woman or not is not the issue. You are a lovely woman too and you have the right to be heard.
The feeling of regression you talk about I know that very well. I went to therapy last Wednesday. I came out of the session and went round to see a guy I work with. He said something albeit innocently that I didn't like and I hightailed it out of his flat barely saying goodbye. I came how and yelled at the top of my voice at me daughter about towels and then just collapsed in a sobbing exhausted heap. When I talk about my child hood I am there. I'm not sure I ever really came out of that child state in life. Apart from when I go to work. i seem to be able to completely split wen I am there and behave in a relatively proffessional manner.
I used to hitch around the country too Selkie. I used to go out and once I slept in the park. I used to wear dirty clothes for school. Nobody really noticed or cared so I am with you there. But before someone asks you to jump come here and chew it over......
I have not been around that much lately because I had to shut him out of my mind for a while, but I guess the honest truth is I am not coping that well with life. How can we just start to cop straight away. You know the most important thing is that we are trying and I think that's what causes that awful feeling of fragmentation....
((((((((((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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I had to accept how I had always felt unworthy of being truly loved, that I was worthy of being loved by someone who was not damaged, needy or troubled in some way,
- Brigid
Light bulb!
This is a new concept for me! I could have a relationship with someone who is not damaged? Me, the damaged one? How would that work? I'll have to mull this over. For years I rejected anyone who was not damaged, figuring they'd never put up with me.
Plucky
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Me too Plucky, I am not sure I would be able to handle someone who is not damaged! I feel someone who isn't damaged would not be able to handle me. Don't think I could take rejection from someone who is normal so I surround myself with freaks, it's somewhat easier to let them go, you can justify it
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Hi, Selkie--
I had similar experiences to your experience when I started therapy. I had a talk with my therapist about it and it was really a good step. I don't hear anything in your post suggesting you have a bad therapist (of course you may-- and it's worth paying attention to that possibility!). I think therapy, for those of us with bad childhoods, is like cleaning out the closet-- at first it just makes things much messier and it seems as if things are worse. It was as if having a big mess locked up where no one could see it was like having no mess at all. Seeing the mess is pretty distressing! And add to that what I went through which is exactly what you are going through, which is the revelation that things were worse than you thought. I honestly had no idea my parents were neglectful-- I thought they were "indepedent" or wanted me to be "independent" or whatever other excuse I made for them. And I made a lot of excuses for them. I didn't know how bad it all was until I saw the shock on my therapist's face.
Honestly, I think what you are going through is part of healing and it may be how some of us go about therapy-- once you start the memories, the other ones come pouring out. It may be hard to stop them now. This intensity won't last and therapy won't always be so painful. In the meanwhile, talking about it with her will be a way to take more control over the process.
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Thanks for that Vunil, I really appreciate it. I am relieved to know someone has been through the wierdness of what I am going through and come out the other side.
I thought about you yesterday when I read what someone wrote in another thread about you and your baby. At 32, I never had a maternal feeling in me until I read that post. It was along the lines of having a little person to call your own and to love unconditionally. For some reason, it really struck a chord with me. I found myself longing for the first time in my life to hold a baby. (They are so cute in their little suits, the one piece nightsuit things they wear) and to give that baby so much love!
I was always an intense dog lover, and had my own dog growing up whom I still shed a tear over. I felt like he knew me and loved me more than any other being on this earth. I really believe that. He waited for me every day by the gate for me to return from school. I would go outside and lie next to him in the evenings when I would feel sad and he would cry! I know this sounds balmy, but I felt like he could feel my pain when everyone else ignored it. He gave me so much love and comfort. Just thinking of him now sets me off...
Anyway, I am going through a mountain of pain that sometimes is hard to hide from people. At work yeaterday, I had a lump in my throat for a few hours, my eyes were constantly on the verge of overflow. I wanted to cry so bad. I don't even know why.
I will address this whole episode with my therapist. I am worried about talking to her about it as I get so tongue tied and confused and un-articulate when it comes to things like this. I can't even get the words out! Sometimes I begin and make such a mess of it that I get side tracked and lose track of what I'm supposed to be talking about in the first place. argh!
I am feeling like i need to tackle this rather than run from it (even though I am having an almighty urge to run) I discovered I have an issue of trust too. I don't know who I can trust with myself. The people I have given myself to in the past have really hurt me. I don't want my counseller to do the same. Somehow, I think she will help me come through it. I hope.
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How about reading your posts to her? You are very articulate and it is utterly clear what you mean-- with the letters in hand you may feel less nervous.
I actually went to my 6th or so therapy session and told hte therapist I wanted to quit. We talked about and all I remember is that at one point she said "are you scared?" and I cried and cried. I stayed in therapy for another year and it was one of the best things I ever did. I bet that you are having a normal reaction to the pain-- not liking it! But I do think it will get better soon.
I also had that teary thing you had-- I remember crying in stores, in restaurants. It is tough having to admit your childhood wasn't great! It isn't for sissies, as they say.
You are very strong, very capable. I think you are MUCH more capable than you realize :)
And, yes, those little jammies are so cute-- my baby is feeding right now (as always!) in a little cute pajamas outfit and she is very sweet to hug. I do recommend motherhood, for sure.
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Hii, I have been in both individual therapy and marriage counseling with my husband for 6 years. We have gone through many marriage counselors and it can be very damaging. I was so miserable because they seem to side with the calmest patient. I was so unhappy because my husband fooled them time and time again. When I would become upset, cry and protest I was pretty much written off. I would participate in these sessions and my husband sat there like a bump on a log, so they seemed to focus on me. It is very frightening when you put your mental and emotional health in someones hands and are ignored or not taken seriously. My husband has Naricisitic Personality Disorder which was udiagnosed for 5 out the 6 years we went to therapy. If alarms are going off and you are not comfortable, keep looking. Not all therapists are good therapists.
Hi dlk,
Been there and done that! I went to marriage counseling with my abusive (at the time) h. Of course I looked like the abusive one when the sessions were finished each time. And my h would tell me lies about his private sessions with my t.
I told my t what was going on and he refused to see my h any more. My t cancelled all our marriage counseling sessions as well. At first my t couldn't see what was happening because I hadn't told him about the abuse my h was perpetrating on me after the sessions. My communication with my t gave him the full story and then he could support me more fully.
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That's really cool Sallying Forth- A valuable experience...
I am beginning to see this new concept emerge and that is one where we stand up for ourselves.
It's about finding our voice and allowing ourselves to speak up. I think a lot of us on here have problems with this. I know that I have the tendancy to run from situations when I am in pain instead of staying there and talking about it. I think the reason we do this is that we assume we will not be heard. The idea of standing up for yourself and not being heard is such a risk for someone whose voice has been stifled. It's a big risk... But we will always remain in this space until we learn how to stand up and be heard. It's like a catch 22 situation. This is what I am experiencing now with my counsellor. When she pushes my buttons and I am triggered, I want to fight back but I am afraid she won't hear me, I assume she will critisize me and think that she knows better, and so I want to run without giving myself a chance to be heard and giving her the benefit of the doubt!
OK, a lot of us are surrounded by N's, and it's a waste of time opening up to them and trying to be heard, because your voice will be quashed in a split second and they will have so much belief in themselves that you will be seduced by their power and you will go along with their sheer strength of mind and think that they must be right.
But not everyone is an N! Sometimes because of our experiences, we can tar everyone with the same brush and assume no one will understand, no one will believe us etc.
...and for that reason, it's refreshing to hear your story Sallying
Longtire= I have ordered "The highly Sensitive Person" from Amazon, waiting for it to arrive... thank you for recommending it
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Plucky, Selkie,
One thing you've said stirs something in me, and I think it's a feeling that words become labels which become obstacles. For me, "normal" vs. "damaged" are like that. In Western culture "normal" incorporates some deadening and dishonest ways of being, and "damaged" can sometimes mean cruel or destructiive, and sometimes aware, sensitive, or wise. I am damaged, like an old animal that shows some scars. (But I always found animals like that beautiful.) I don't look at other people as "normal". Maybe what I want is a peaceful partner. Not someone with no damage. But someone who's been damaged, learned and worked with their pain, and has made peace with it. That make any sense?
OK, a lot of us are surrounded by N's, and it's a waste of time opening up to them and trying to be heard, because your voice will be quashed in a split second and they will have so much belief in themselves that you will be seduced by their power and you will go along with their sheer strength of mind and think that they must be right.
But not everyone is an N! Sometimes because of our experiences, we can tar everyone with the same brush...
This is a gift of clarity for me. The power of Ns belief in themselves. So well put. Thank you.
Hopalong
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...Ah, you made an important point for me...
I kind of thought that some day, when I am healed (!) I will probably have to date a "normal" person. Now the idea of this has been haunting me for some reason. I think that a normal person would not be able to handle me and likewise I don't think I could handle a normal person. No offense to normal people (there probably aint any on this board anyway ha ha!)
But actually, now I think I would like to meet someone who has been damaged and learned by it, like you say- thanks so much Hopalong for pointing out that to me. I know what I want now. I love the image of the old farm animal too... I find that FAR more interesting in a partner. I want to be able to connect with people who have been to the deep places I have been to because of my pain. As a result I think you get understanding and compassion and empathy, we can help each other along and learn from each other. Only someone who has been to that place can know how it is. I kinda want someone like me! I guess I am complimenting myself here which is a first! 8)
This has made me in a good mood!
*Selkie whistles as she skips out of the room*
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Sorry to butt straight in here and I apologise for that, but what do you call a normal person?
Is a normal person someone who hasn't been in therapy? Or is it someone who's dealt with their issues?
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Hi NPDad,
Butt in all you like, that's what this post is here for! I welcome any contribution or view! :)
I know a normal person may only exist in my head. There may be no such thing as a normal person. Maybe a "normal person" tag is my own way of telling myself that I'm a freak. I have a few friends and family members I would call normal. They seem well adjusted. They don't go into the deep place that I seem to have to go to in order to try to "adjust" myself! When I tried to communicate with them at this level we do on this board, they just can't relate. They think it's too heavy or they say I analyse too much or that I need to get out more! They don't say it nastily, they just aren't that kind of person.
Longtire recommended a book called "The highly sensitive person" which I am waiting for to be delivered from amazon, i think this will explain a great deal, so I will get back to you when i know more.
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I personally do find it mildly amusing when people say about what's normal and what's not hon. Is there really a person who is generally all rounded well ajusted? I feel that everyone has traits of what they like and what they don't like in them.
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Hi Selkie,
You have touched on what I was thinking, without realising it. I have always felt that a 'normal' person, and for me that means a person who has not undergone trauma, would not be able to understand major parts of me. I did marry a man who supposedly was normal (in this case well-adjusted, with a pretty much eventless childhood), and made me deny and cover up most unacceptable parts of myself andmy past, only to find that he had major issues as well. I had thought finally that only a 'normal' person would be able to help me create the 'normal' childhood for my children and the 'normal' rest of life for me. Other than that, I was operating on what I saw in books, movies, and shopping malls.
Plucky
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Hi Folks!
Well, I went to my counsellor about the issues I was having with her. It was mind blowing. I have never gone to someone regarding problems we were having ...without being attacked, defended, abused, made to feel like I was a worthless piece of s**t who shouldn't have opened her big trap! Usually "confrontations" led to the demise of my relationships. This was an amazing experience! I was so nervous about it to begin with. I honestly thought she'd turn it all around on me and manipulate me so much that I would wind up feeling down and that I would have no other choice than to need her. It wasn't like that at all! She validated my feelings, listened to me, understood me and congratulated me!!! How strange to experience that! I felt good when I came out. I felt like I pulled my head out of the old world and had a glimpse of what happens in the new world. Wow! It's nice there!
I am so glad or lucky I guess, that I opened up to the right person and experienced a mature interaction. It could have been a disaster. I knew beforehand what that the confrontation (It wasn't a confrontation really, but rather a confiding) would make or break our relationship. I clearly said to myself that if shes reacts in a defensive, manipulative manner, then that's the end. I went into it with my eyes open this time and it paid off.
I'd never be able to find a man like that would I?
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Selkie.... that is brilliant and I am so happy for you! First of all, congratulations for seeing what you wanted to achieve and for taking the risk and telling her your concerns, and secondly for realising that your therapists reaction was spot on. Fantastic! xx
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Congratulations Selkie for telling your t what is going on with you! Big step!
The response of your t says she is a healthy person not only mature.
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Yay, Selkie and Selkie's therapist!
And if you find a man like that, please ask him if he has a brother :)
Seriously, I think it is great she was so good and I think it's instructive that you expected so much worse. I am the same-- it's hard for me to expect the best or even ok behavior from people because of years of getting bad reactions. What a relief to start to feel optimism that not everyone will be like our family was! I can feel the relief in your post and it is inspirational for me, too.