Counselling-Is it messing me up? or is it necessary?

[Brigid]

Congratulations Selkie, you have taken the first BIG step toward healing.  Accepting that loss of self and finding the path toward regaining it (or having it for the first time), is the beginning IMO.  I had to accept how I had always felt unworthy of being truly loved, that I was worthy of being loved by someone who was not damaged, needy or troubled in some way, that I was entitled to have my own dreams and aspirations apart from my partner, and that I could be comfortable being alone.  I dealt with the fact that every important man in my life had hurt me very deeply.  I learned to accept that I was a good person, with many fine qualities to offer my friends and potential partners.

You will have to go through a lot of sh*& before you get to that point.  But until you turn over all those rocks and deal with the funk that is buried under them, you won't be completely healed.  It hurts a lot, but you are still relatively young and have many years ahead of you that you can enjoy once you get beyond all of this.

Hang in there darlin'.  I'm pulling for you.

Hugs,

Brigid

[Sallying Forth]

Hi Sallying, Longtire, October & Brigid,

Thank you for your invaluable feedback and opinions.  I started my journal last night and felt great relief after, felt like I was doing a bit of weeding in an overgrown garden.

Good for you for journaling.

My habit used to be that after therapy I would write and write until I felt finished. During that time I would put a lot of things into perspective.

Sallying, let me clarify what I mean by the "splitting" I said earlier, I just meant that I get kind of confused.  Like I'm in between two minds.  I want counselling one minute and don't want it the next.  This kind of to-ing and fro-ing happens me all the time and I find it extremely draining, like i'm never of one mind on things, always second guessing myself and doubting my judgement...makes decision making very difficult.

I went through a lot of that during therapy in the beginning. For me it was the intense issues which therapy always uncovered. I wanted to escape from the pain. Even years later I still sometimes go through these feelings of wanting to throw in the towel. I'm in one of those right now. Yes, I want to. No, I don't need it. And I am going through intense, gut wrenching grieving. The pain is very real and something part of me wants to escape.

October said: This is consistent with what you have said elsewhere.  You are wanting someone to tell you how to do whatever it is you are trying to do.  We all need this at some point in our lives.  The sad thing is you didn't have it before, and you don't have it now.    What you are still searching for, imo, is the parent-figure who will help you, rather than abandon you to do the best you can with what you have.  The repetition of the insecurity may be causing the feelings to come back.  I don't think you will be led astray, because you still have your adult reasoning self; you still get to choose.  But you are terrified of what it might be like, because you have never had it, at the same time as desperately needing to know that you are safe in someone else's hands.  Something that has never been true of you before

This is how I feel to a T so what do I do now?  Do I hand over myself to her or do I trust myself?  Either way I am not satisfied and I am split again as to which way to go...

I guess I need to talk to her about all this stuff, it may be of use.

Of course there is another option ...

I've been in therapy with abusive, controlling therapists who tried to reign over me.

Now I've gone the other direction. I am reparenting myself through using healthy male role models I had in grade school. There were three men (two teachers and one principal) who gave me support, care and love in small ways. I am incorporating their demonstrations of love into my life. I am internalizing them into myself.

So in my case I have NOT handed myself over to my t. Nor have I given him my full trust. Rather I decided that I have within me ALL the tools and ALL the resources to heal.

My t also knew that when he met me I would be taking over the reins for my therapy. He's taken a hands off approach. This is unlike most therapy and it has worked well for me.

[dlk]

Hii, I have been in both individual therapy and marriage counseling with my husband for 6 years. We have gone through many marriage counselors and it can be very damaging.  I was so miserable because they seem to side with the calmest patient.  I was so unhappy because my husband fooled them time and time again.  When I would become upset, cry and protest I was pretty much written off.  I would participate in these sessions and my husband sat there like a bump on a log, so they seemed to focus on me.  It is very frightening when you put your mental and emotional health in someones hands and are ignored or not taken seriously.  My husband has Naricisitic Personality Disorder which was udiagnosed for 5 out the 6 years we went to therapy.  If alarms are going off and you are not comfortable, keep looking.  Not all therapists are good therapists.

[Chicken]

Sorry to hear about your bad experience with your therapist dlk, I'm wondering what would have happened if you stood up for yourself? Did you just let it happen? or did you approach your therapist about your feelings?  or did you just run a mile? in a situation like that, I wonder is it better to run a mile or to confront?  If you are reading this, DavidP, I'm sure you will have plenty to say about that!  Do we contribute to a situation by running from it?  Because we are ultimately left with the feelings that made us a victim.  This is an area I am not entirely sure about... 

The reason I am bringing this up is because it pertains to my situation with my therapist.  In all fairness to her, I don't think she is controlling, abusive or anything like that.  I just think that she can't figure me out!  Ha Ha Ha!  I am not sure she is working for me.  BUT!...  can I make it work for me, is the question.  I am tempted to run a mile, but surely I should try to remedy the situation first.  I think I should go to her, explain the situation and then take hold of the reigns which i am not comfortable doing.  I am someone who has always been led you see.

I have a feeling my therapist would be more than happy to accomodate me in how I would like to steer the session.  I want her to encourage me to slot into my self and stay there!  I want her to guide me back when i start to break apart from myself.  I want her to show me how I am mistreating myself.  At the moment I feel like she is busying herself with trying to find what's wrong with me.  She flits from painful subject to painful subject leaving it undealt with and leaving me wide open.  She is not always right either.  I don't think she is aware of it, and I have let her assume what she likes about me as I figured I was none the wiser.  I feel like she thinks I am a bad/messed up person and that she thinks I'm at fault in everything I do.   Now this could be a huge case of transference, i don't know.   You see, I experienced this so much as a kid.  If I would go to my Mother about an argument I had with someone, or anything, she would always take the side of the other person, thinking they know better, always putting me at fault.  She would never validate my feelings or my view of things.  I'm sure this is where i picked up my feelings of worthlessness.

So...I am feeling this now with my therapist.  It's causing me a lot of anxiety and i am not sure if I am imagining it or jumping to conclusions.  I am feeling hyper sensitive these days.  I feel like I have shed all my layers and I am wide open and am unbelieveably vulnerable...  because i am feeling this way, I have to be very careful.  Because I am being hyper careful and hyper afraid, I feel like I jump to conclusions unnecessarily, like an over protective mother over a newly born babe.  I simply don't trust my judgement as I am too changeable!  I have to let someone in to help me.  In that sense, I think October's post is right, I need to slow down with my therapist, so I can suss her out and see if I can trust her.  If she doesn't respond to my requests, then fair enough, i will have to give her the flick.

MP, thanks so much for your advice on what to say regarding friends issue, I have been so anxious with how to approach her about it, I have been afraid it will come out the wrong way!  I don't want it to sound like a confrontation.

Brigid, Thank you.

x Selkie x

[spyralle]

Hi Selkie,

Oh I just want to give you a big hug because a lot of the things you are talking about in this thread resonate so closely with me.  I have had a few therapists in my time Selkie.  Some of them were ok and some of them weren't.  One of them was just damned abusive.  Anyway I just used to run...  I would just not go back.  i think now with this therapist I have learned to say in the session that I am unhappy with something or the other thing I do is switch off and now I learn to say when that is happening.  I ahve learned in my career that not all counsellors are good just because they are counsellors.  I am a great believer that if you train to be a therapist you have to have had a lot of therapy yourself but quite often that does not happen.  The therapist I have found this time is right for me and even when she challenges me or goes to places that I don't like I insrinsically know that.  This is a new experience for me as generally as you know I do not have a firm decision on anything as i have very little sense of self.

Remember you need to be leading the session.  You can take what YOU want into therapy.  If you don't want to go into your relationships with your friends, try and say to her.  I know that this uis harder than it sounds, but remember that you are paying for this time.  THIS IS YOUR SPACE not hers, and  whether she is a lovely woman or not is not the issue.  You are a lovely woman too and you have the right to be heard.

The feeling of regression you talk about I know that very well.  I went to therapy last Wednesday.  I came out of the session and went round to see a guy I work with.  He said something albeit innocently that I didn't like and I hightailed it out of his flat barely saying goodbye.  I came how and yelled at the top of my voice at me daughter about towels and then just collapsed in a sobbing exhausted heap.  When I talk about my child hood I am there.  I'm not sure I ever really came out of that child state in life.  Apart from when I go to work.  i seem to be able to completely split wen I am there and behave in a relatively proffessional manner.

I used to hitch around the country too Selkie.  I used to go out and once I slept in the park.  I used to wear dirty clothes for school.  Nobody really noticed or cared so I am with you there.  But before someone asks you to jump come here and chew it over......

I have not been around that much lately because I had to shut him out of my mind for a while, but I guess the honest truth is I am not coping that well with life.  How can we just start to cop straight away.  You know the most important thing is that we are trying and I think that's what causes that awful feeling of fragmentation....

((((((((((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Plucky]

I had to accept how I had always felt unworthy of being truly loved, that I was worthy of being loved by someone who was not damaged, needy or troubled in some way,

- Brigid
Light bulb!
This is a new concept for me!  I could have a relationship with someone who is not damaged?  Me, the damaged one?  How would that work?  I'll have to mull this over. For years I rejected anyone who was not damaged, figuring they'd never put up with me.
Plucky

[Chicken]

Me too Plucky, I am not sure I would be able to handle someone who is not damaged!  I feel someone who isn't damaged would not be able to handle me.  Don't think I could take rejection from someone who is normal so I surround myself with freaks, it's somewhat easier to let them go, you can justify it

[vunil]

Hi, Selkie--

I had similar experiences to your experience when I started therapy.  I had a talk with my therapist about it and it was really a good step. I don't hear anything in your post suggesting you have a bad therapist (of course you may-- and it's worth paying attention to that possibility!).  I think therapy, for those of us with bad childhoods, is like cleaning out the closet-- at first it just makes things much messier and it seems as if things are worse.  It was as if having a big mess locked up where no one could see it was like having no mess at all.  Seeing the mess is pretty distressing!  And add to that what I went through which is exactly what you are going through, which is the revelation that things were worse than you thought.  I honestly had no idea my parents were neglectful--  I thought they were "indepedent" or wanted me to be "independent" or whatever other excuse I made for them.  And I made a lot of excuses for them.  I didn't know how bad it all was until I saw the shock on my therapist's face.

Honestly, I think what you are going through is part of healing and it may be how some of us go about therapy-- once you start the memories, the other ones come pouring out.  It may be hard to stop them now.  This intensity won't last and therapy won't always be so painful.  In the meanwhile, talking about it with her will be a way to take more control over the process.

[Chicken]

Thanks for that Vunil, I really appreciate it.  I am relieved to know someone has been through the wierdness of what I am going through and come out the other side. 

I thought about you yesterday when I read what someone wrote in another thread about you and your baby.  At 32, I never had a maternal feeling in me until I read that post.  It was along the lines of having a little person to call your own and to love unconditionally.  For some reason, it really struck a chord with me.  I found myself longing for the first time in my life to hold a baby.  (They are so cute in their little suits, the one piece nightsuit things they wear) and to give that baby so much love! 

I was always an intense dog lover, and had my own dog growing up whom I still shed a tear over.  I felt like he knew me and loved me more than any other being on this earth.  I really believe that.  He waited for me every day by the gate for me to return from school.  I would go outside and lie next to him in the evenings when I would feel sad and he would cry!  I know this sounds balmy, but I felt like he could feel my pain when everyone else ignored it.  He gave me so much love and comfort.  Just thinking of him now sets me off...

Anyway, I am going through a mountain of pain that sometimes is hard to hide from people.  At work yeaterday, I had a lump in my throat for a few hours, my eyes were constantly on the verge of overflow.  I wanted to cry so bad.  I don't even know why. 

I will address this whole episode with my therapist.  I am worried about talking to her about it as I get so tongue tied and confused and un-articulate when it comes to things like this.  I can't even get the words out!  Sometimes I begin and make such a mess of it that I get side tracked and lose track of what I'm supposed to be talking about in the first place.  argh!

I am feeling like i need to tackle this rather than run from it (even though I am having an almighty urge to run) I discovered I have an issue of trust too.  I don't know who I can trust with myself.  The people I have given myself to in the past have really hurt me.  I don't want my counseller to do the same.  Somehow, I think she will help me come through it.  I hope.

[vunil]

How about reading your posts to her? You are very articulate and it is utterly clear what you mean-- with the letters in hand you may feel less nervous.

I actually went to my 6th or so therapy session and told hte therapist I wanted to quit.  We talked about and all I remember is that at one point she said "are you scared?"  and I cried and cried.  I stayed in therapy for another year and it was one of the best things I ever did.  I bet that you are having a normal reaction to the pain-- not liking it!  But I do think it will get better soon.

I also had that teary thing you had-- I remember crying in stores, in restaurants.  It is tough having to admit your childhood wasn't great!  It isn't for sissies, as they say.

You are very strong, very capable.  I think you are MUCH more capable than you realize

And, yes, those little jammies are so cute-- my baby is feeding right now (as always!) in a little cute pajamas outfit and she is very sweet to hug.  I do recommend motherhood, for sure.

[Sallying Forth]

Hii, I have been in both individual therapy and marriage counseling with my husband for 6 years. We have gone through many marriage counselors and it can be very damaging.  I was so miserable because they seem to side with the calmest patient.  I was so unhappy because my husband fooled them time and time again.  When I would become upset, cry and protest I was pretty much written off.  I would participate in these sessions and my husband sat there like a bump on a log, so they seemed to focus on me.  It is very frightening when you put your mental and emotional health in someones hands and are ignored or not taken seriously.  My husband has Naricisitic Personality Disorder which was udiagnosed for 5 out the 6 years we went to therapy.  If alarms are going off and you are not comfortable, keep looking.  Not all therapists are good therapists.

Hi dlk,
Been there and done that! I went to marriage counseling with my abusive (at the time) h. Of course I looked like the abusive one when the sessions were finished each time. And my h would tell me lies about his private sessions with my t.

I told my t what was going on and he refused to see my h any more. My t cancelled all our marriage counseling sessions as well. At first my t couldn't see what was happening because I hadn't told him about the abuse my h was perpetrating on me after the sessions. My communication with my t gave him the full story and then he could support me more fully.

[Chicken]

That's really cool Sallying Forth-  A valuable experience...

I am beginning to see this new concept emerge and that is one where we stand up for ourselves. 

It's about finding our voice and allowing ourselves to speak up.  I think a lot of us on here have problems with this.  I know that I have the tendancy to run from situations when I am in pain instead of staying there and talking about it.  I think the reason we do this is that we assume we will not be heard.  The idea of standing up for yourself and not being heard is such a risk for someone whose voice has been stifled.  It's a big risk... But we will always remain in this space until we learn how to stand up and be heard.  It's like a catch 22 situation.  This is what I am experiencing now with my counsellor.  When she pushes my buttons and I am triggered, I want to fight back but I am afraid she won't hear me, I assume she will critisize me and think that she knows better, and so I want to run without giving myself a chance to be heard and giving her the benefit of the doubt!

OK, a lot of us are surrounded by N's, and it's a waste of time opening up to them and trying to be heard, because your voice will be quashed in a split second and they will have so much belief in themselves that you will be seduced by their power and you will go along with their sheer strength of mind and think that they must be right. 

But not everyone is an N!  Sometimes because of our experiences, we can tar everyone with the same brush and assume no one will understand, no one will believe us etc. 

...and for that reason, it's refreshing to hear your story Sallying

Longtire= I have ordered "The highly Sensitive Person" from Amazon, waiting for it to arrive... thank you for recommending it

[Hopalong]

Plucky, Selkie,
One thing you've said stirs something in me, and I think it's a feeling that words become labels which become obstacles. For me, "normal" vs. "damaged" are like that. In Western culture "normal" incorporates some deadening and dishonest ways of being, and "damaged" can sometimes mean cruel or destructiive, and sometimes aware, sensitive, or wise. I am damaged, like an old animal that shows some scars. (But I always found animals like that beautiful.) I don't look at other people as "normal". Maybe what I want is a peaceful partner. Not someone with no damage. But someone who's been damaged, learned and worked with their pain, and has made peace with it. That make any sense?

OK, a lot of us are surrounded by N's, and it's a waste of time opening up to them and trying to be heard, because your voice will be quashed in a split second and they will have so much belief in themselves that you will be seduced by their power and you will go along with their sheer strength of mind and think that they must be right. 

But not everyone is an N!  Sometimes because of our experiences, we can tar everyone with the same brush...

This is a gift of clarity for me. The power of Ns belief in themselves. So well put. Thank you.
Hopalong

[Chicken]

...Ah, you made an important point for me...

I kind of thought that some day, when I am healed (!) I will probably have to date a "normal" person.  Now the idea of this has been haunting me for some reason.  I think that a normal person would not be able to handle me and likewise I don't think I could handle a normal person.  No offense to normal people (there probably aint any on this board anyway ha ha!)

But actually, now I think I would like to meet someone who has been damaged and learned by it, like you say- thanks so much Hopalong for pointing out that to me.  I know what I want now.  I love the image of the old farm animal too...  I find that FAR more interesting in a partner.  I want to be able to connect with people who have been to the deep places I have been to because of my pain.  As a result I think you get understanding and compassion and empathy, we can help each other along and learn from each other.  Only someone who has been to that place can know how it is.  I kinda want someone like me!  I guess I am complimenting myself here which is a first!

This has made me in a good mood!

*Selkie whistles as she skips out of the room*

[Healing&Hopeful]

Sorry to butt straight in here and I apologise for that, but what do you call a normal person?

Is a normal person someone who hasn't been in therapy?  Or is it someone who's dealt with their issues?