Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Sallying Forth on November 13, 2005, 06:31:59 PM
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I found this information way back in the beginning of 2004. This might be a repeat from other posts. However I like the way the information is presented. Very clear and with questions.
HOW TO SPOT AN ABUSER ON YOUR FIRST DATE
Is there anything you can do to avoid abusers and narcissists to start with? Are there any warning signs, any identifying marks, rules of thumbs to shield you from the harrowing and traumatic experience of an abusive relationship?
Imagine a first or second date. You can already tell if he is a would-be abuser. Here's how:
1. Perhaps the first telltale sign is the abuser's alloplastic defenses - his tendency to blame every mistake of his, every failure, or mishap on others, or on the world at large. Be tuned: does he assume personal responsibility? Does he admit his faults and miscalculations? Or does he keep blaming you, the cab driver, the waiter, the weather, the government, or fortune for his predicament?
2. Is he hypersensitive, picks up fights, feels constantly slighted, injured, and insulted? Does he rant incessantly? Does he treat animals and children impatiently or cruelly and does he express negative and aggressive emotions towards the weak, the poor, the needy, the sentimental, and the disabled? Does he confess to having a history of battering or violent offenses or behavior? Is his language vile and infused with expletives, threats, and hostility?
3. Next thing: is he too eager? Does he push you to marry him having dated you only twice? Is he planning on having children on your first date? Does he immediately cast you in the role of the love of his life? Is he pressing you for exclusivity, instant intimacy, almost rapes you and acts jealous when you as much as cast a glance at another male? Does he inform you that, once you get hitched, you should abandon your studies or resign your job (forgo your personal autonomy)?
4. Does he respect your boundaries and privacy? Does he ignore your wishes (for instance, by choosing from the menu or selecting a movie without as much as consulting you)? Does he disrespect your boundaries and treats you as an object or an instrument of gratification (materializes on your doorstep unexpectedly or calls you often prior to your date)? Does he go through your personal belongings while waiting for you to get ready?
5. Does he control the situation and you compulsively? Does he insist to ride in his car, holds on to the car keys, the money, the theater tickets, and even your bag? Does he disapprove if you are away for too long (for instance when you go to the powder room)? Does he interrogate you when you return ("have you seen anyone interesting") - or make lewd "jokes" and remarks? Does he hint that, in future, you would need his permission to do things - even as innocuous as meeting a friend or visiting with your family?
6. Does he act in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes you often? Does he emphasize your minutest faults (devalues you) even as he exaggerates your talents, traits, and skills (idealizes you)? Is he wildly unrealistic in his expectations from you, from himself, from the budding relationship, and from life in general?
7. Does he tell you constantly that you "make him feel" good? Don't be impressed. Next thing, he may tell you that you "make" him feel bad, or that you make him feel violent, or that you "provoke" him. "Look what you made me do!" is an abuser's ubiquitous catchphrase.
8. Does he find sadistic sex exciting? Does he have fantasies of rape or pedophilia? Is he too forceful with you in and out of the sexual intercourse? Does he like hurting you physically or finds it amusing? Does he abuse you verbally - does he curse you, demeans you, calls you ugly or inappropriately diminutive names, or persistently criticizes you? Does he then switch to being saccharine and "loving", apologizes profusely and buys you gifts?
If you have answered "yes" to any of the above - stay away! He is an abuser.
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Hi Sallying,
thanks for posting this. It is very interesting. I wonder if there is a companion list for men to follow when meeting women, or people to follow when meeting friends.
Plucky
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I do not think that a 'companion list for men' is necessary, Plucky. The list above will do just fine.
I recognize a few of the behaviors from the list in many of my dates -scary ladies !!
David P.
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Hiya all
Furthering on from No1, the blaming, I think a sign for ourselves is to ask "Do you feel sorry for the guy/girl?". Because of their tendency to blame, from personal experience I've always felt sorry for them and thought that they've not had the best of luck and to give them a chance.
Now I know that signal to be run, run away.
H&H xx
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Fantastic list! Thanks... I will carry it with me!
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I think that most of us are willing to dump on our Ex when asked by our date,"Why did you last relationship end?" And I think that we are reluctant to discuss our own contribution to it's demise with a new companion sitting across the table in some romantic restaurant whom we are trying to impress..
However, the 'blamers' seem to never own anything from their past. They have an excuse for everything and ownership of nothing. I learned quickly that if I got in a relationship with a blamer that I became the object of her blame at the first sign of trouble.
David P.
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Sally,
Thank you for the list. I can honestly say that my new love interest does not have a single "quality" on that list.
My xnh used a rather opposite approach. He presented himself as the really nice guy who girls would take advantage of and he was a victim that needed to be rescued and loved. Because rescuing and fixing were all I knew about relationships, I bought into this hook, line and sinker and continued to care for and about him for 24 years. It was just a different form of manipulation that he found worked very well for him. That combined with his compulsive lying kept us all thinking he was a good guy right up til the end.
Just a little warning for those of you looking for a new love that n's do come in different shapes and sizes.
Brigid
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the last guy I dated seemed wonderfully normal at first, seemed to know all the right things to say, wanted to know all about me etc.
It was only when it became a romance that he started to behave like the whining, selfish jerk he is, even presenting me with other women in his life and acting like he couldn't make choices, things just happen to him. It quickly became surreal and unpleasant and the only thing I've learned from the experience is get out quicker!
But it was a wrench to end the friendship at first, because I kept looking at the way it started out and wondering what I did wrong to spoil it...but it was just asking questions and getting closer to the real him, a serial womaniser with a hidden cruel streak. A real woman-hater under the surface, absolutely no respect for women.
He was definitely the least abusive on the surface man I've met- and the most abusive deep-down. I've learned since that he's done lots of emotional damage to women around him. Even so he continues to take people in. He was very convincing, in fact I'd probably still be taken in if he hadn't suddenly adopted that 'nothing's my fault/ responsibility' whinging tone which was so like my father it was repulsive.
Since then I've had a policy of no dating for a while. I want to be alone!
Thanks for the list.
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Hi folks,
I'm happy to be posting! I made my first deadline, no small thanks to the nudging, encouraging, kind, wonderful support I got here. THANK YOU! I can only post a little bit today because Deadline Part 2 means I mustn't get all lost on the Net again...but I can take a little time to indulge.
I'm grateful for this topic because I have a question. I've been emailing a nice-sounding man who's from the same congregation a few hours from me. He seems very enthusiastic about meeting and we do have a good deal in common. I have one concern. He does sound like a victim, but I am trying to discern to what degree it's simply genuine. IOW, if one is abused, then one's a victim of abuse, right? His ex, who happened to be Chinese, was prone to violent rages and literally drew blood from him. They divorced years ago and she got custody, but he has his son, who sounds well adjusted and delightful, all summer and for lengthy holidays. He talks about his son a lot and obviously loves him very much. My only concern was 2 "pink flags". And I hope they're just "pink". I mean, anybody meeting me will certainly find pink flags so I want to be realistic and not so picky I can never find anyone, if you know what I mean. The pink flags are: I couldn't understand how he could leave his young son on the oppostie coast with a woman so unstable, so I asked him about that. He said he did agonize over it, especially when his son would call him crying and asking to be rescued, but his family and friends advised him he'd never get full custody unless he could prove her unfit which would bankrupt him, and it would be better for his son to have two separate homes without fighting, than the weekly transfers which had been awful scenes. He said she was never physically abusive with his son but was extremely emtoionally abusive to him, because she screams at him all the time. He also said it got better as time went on because she wasn't able to have direct conflict with him (the Dad). (I was wondering if she might be Borderline, and they had very competitive academic careers...both ambitioius scientists.) Fact is, though, he did take a teaching job far away from his boy, which I found troubling. Second pink flag, which I'm not even sure is a flag, is really a question for you, my wise friends: is there something wrong about the fact that he blames her entirely for the failure of their marriage? I mean, if she is unstable, and prone to violence, maybe that's the simple fact of it. But I am wondering if there's something missing ("And my contribution to the misery of it all was _________"). So far, I haven't heard a word like that. Anyway, we're going to meet for coffee in January (after Deadline #2) and I wondered what signs you might suggest I look for, or perhaps what quesitons I might ask. In many respects he sounds like a good, decent person with good values, and that's just what I've been hoping to find. But there is an edge of pepetual victimhood in his story, and he describes himself as sometimes "oversensitive."
He also gave his primary reason for leaving as because his mother told him very forcefully that he was being severely damaged and had to save himself or he'd be no good to his son. (In a way that's wonderful, bt in another way, it makes him sound like someone who couldn't rescue himself. Does that make sense? More importantly, am I being unfair to even think that way? He's middle aged, so that would've been when he was in his 40s...)
Again, I truly don't want to subject some nice new man to such impossible criteria that I'll ever find a healthy partner. But just as I've missed red flags when they were in my face, I'm not concerned I might be inventing some just by overinterpreting. I would love to hear any thoughts on pink flags, good questions, any hints you might offer... I'm determined to get out there in 2006 and open myself to a healthy, hopeful new dating life. Thanks, everybody! I've been reading but not posting and I've missed you all!
Love,
Hopalong
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Hoppy, Hoppy, Hoppy,
congrats on your deadline. Let us know when you need more harassment - I mean encouragement for the next one.
I have 2 problems with your man:
1. You seem to think you do not deserve a regular healthy person/relationship. Banish that thought. You are not perfect yet, but you're in progress. You don't need to acceopt any major flaws to punish yourself for not being perfect or to match your imperfections. Don't think there is no-one decent out there. There is.
2. You have already pinpointed his issues much more efficiently than I could have. I think they are major. At your coffee date, you can ask how he ended up married to his ex. That mgiht provide more insight. If things are going better for his ex and the child without him around, what does that tell you?
3. Ok 3 problems. Being alone is ok. You don't have to settle for whatever because you can't get better. Alone is better.
Plucky
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I can't respond to the first pink flag (moving to the other coast), but would like to respond to the second.
I think that you should see if he has a pattern of blaming others. If he accepts responsibility for other areas of his life, maybe his perception of the situation with his ex-wife is accurate. For example, if one was married to someone who repeatedly was unfaithful, and had a sexual addiction before they even married, it would be reasonable to say that spouse was close to 100% responsible for the end of the marriage. HOWEVER, the "innocent" spouse chose that person to marry, and I think that requires some introspection and perhaps owning some responsibility for making a bad choice. Another example would be a spouse who was violent. If someone ends the marriage to protect himself or herself from the violence, that seems to me to be a pretty clear case of the other person being responsible.
It really bothers me when people talk about both spouses always being responsible for the end of the marriage. I'm sure that is true in many cases, but when one partner is abusive or repeatedly unfaithful, I don't buy it.
Now, if this guy is chronically a "blamer"--never taking responsibility for the outcomes in his life, I'd say now you have a bright red flag!
Gail
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I think it's a red flag when someone blames someone else entirely for the failure of a marriage or for their life choices.
If he's doing ( what we often do here! ) and venting about his marriage/ situation etc I'd say that he's not yet over it all and not ready to start a new relationship- I've been in this position and found myself becoming an unofficial counsellor, a role I no longer need or want.
As for being too picky- I say that's a good thing, you deserve the best after working through so much. Don't tell yourself that if you're too choosy it's unrealistic or you'll never find someone...I've come to the conclusion that's it's only by refusing second best I will find the relationships I want and break the pattern of unsatisfactory relating. I'd rather be alone than have an unhealthy relationship just to be with someone.
Oh and that's my last point- I've never had a relationship yet where it started out bad and got better- they all deteriorated as soon as I was fully hooked in. I've given up that fantasy of 'we can work through his problems then it'll be all right'.
You are right to be so open-minded and thoughtful now you're ready for another relationship.
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Hiya Hoppy
I think first of all well done for seeing the potential problems... At this stage I don't feel they are problems, however in the future they may be. However I am one for always trying to see the best in people...
He said he did agonize over it, especially when his son would call him crying and asking to be rescued, but his family and friends advised him he'd never get full custody unless he could prove her unfit which would bankrupt him, and it would be better for his son to have two separate homes without fighting, than the weekly transfers which had been awful scenes. He said she was never physically abusive with his son but was extremely emtoionally abusive to him, because she screams at him all the time.
I feel that someone with N tendencies would not agonise over this decision or try to do what is best for their son. Time will tell if this is true or not but for my first impression this is what I think.
Regarding blaming his ex wife... I really don't know. One thing I will say though is that most people have n tendecies. It's our way of protecting ourselves if you like and although they can make us cringe, we wouldn't be normal without them.
I feel you are doing this right Hoppy... you are taking things slowly and looking out for any signals. Sometimes it's impossible to tell in the beginning but maybe beware if he starts saying that he loves you very early on or that you are his one true love in a very short space of time. Trust your own instinct and go at your own pace is my advice... anyone whose worth their weight will stick around.
Take care
H&H xx
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Thanks all! Plucky, you're tough but I especially appreciate the question you suggest asking him in your point #2. Gives me something be more alert about when we do meet. Gathering information's all to the good, and I sort of think of any new date as an "experiment" rather than something to stake a lot of hope on. It's practice...As to #3, you're right. I think being alone really is okay...I'm just getting tired of it, is all. Got my hopeful little antennae out again.
Amen, Write. I can be supportive and empathic but need to watch out for a Co-D pattern of propping somebody up. I'm sure I'll get a better idea if that's what he's looking for once I actually meet him. I'm think he may be "over" his marriage but was trying to explain it to someone who doesn't know him? Time will tell. (And he may not be appealing in person, or he might be.) I really will try to stay open-minded and open-eyed at the same time.
Thanks, Gail. If the blaming is an overall pattern, I should pick that up pretty quickly. But I tend to agree, if he was being physically attacked it's hard not to see him as the victim... I just also wonder what pressures were driving her (some may have been cultural...he kept mentioning her need not to lose "face" with her parents...) Sounded like a horribly toxic marriage anyway.
And H & H, thanks as ever for your optimism! I am moved, again, by your positivity when your past could've turned you sour. You really do embody Attitude of Gratitude and I admire that so much.
I'll try to be calm and sensible and alert and trust he's innocent until proven otherwise...(plus, I'll try not to obsess--he's just one person and I'm not even meeting him 'til January and told him I don't have time for lengthy email in between now and then anyway, he was writing tomes.)
Thanks everybody. What a gift to have all these perspectives to mull over!
Hopalong
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Hoppy,
As someone who has dated a few different men in the last year (usually it is one date, no chemistry and I'm out of there), I would say first and foremost to not invest a lot into your first meeting. Most of the time he will not turn out to be someone with whom you connect, or if you are trying too hard to connect, you will not see him for who is really is.
Moving so far away from his son would be a major red flag for me. I put a man's relationship with his children as my most important criteria for forming a relationship. That is not to say that your interest doesn't have a good relationship with his son, but I would certainly want to know more about why someone would make a choice like that before their children are grown, unless their job gives them no options.
As far as the blaming aspect goes--I certainly fall into the category of someone who puts 99.9% of the blame on my ex for the demise of the relationship. Did I make mistakes? Yes, but I was never dealing with the truth. Had I known the truth, I would probably have made different choices and behaved in a different manner. I NEVER lied to that man, never ever. He knew exactly what he was dealing with in me, but I did not have the same benefit, so I do hold him entirely responsible. If this concerns my BF, I don't know--he has never said that. I have been totally honest with him also about why both my marriages ended, so he can come to his own conclusions.
Bottom line, Hoppy, keep your eyes and ears wide open. Observe how he treats you, but more importantly, how he treats those who he is not trying to impress. Always remember that you deserve to be with someone who is kind, thoughtful, loving and healthy and take your time forming impressions and judgments.
All the best,
Brigid
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Eyes wide open, Hoppy...you're doing fine.
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Hiya Hoppy hon
I was thinking about this last night... as you do... sat with my cup of cocoa. I am not sure how other N's are but speaking from experience with my n.dad, there is one word which is like a swear word - change. Any kind of sentence with the words him and change in are likely to bring out the "I am what I am, you should accept me blah blah blah". So maybe asking something like "Gosh, having a child is such a huge step, especially with what was going on at the time, I feel for you... what measures did you take to adapt and change after your son was born?"
I was thinking about this because yesterday bio dad posted about how his daughter had disowned him on the website, and I thought maybe one of his friends might try and help and possibly try and get in touch with me. I know that all I need to say is "Of course I'll talk to him, can you just do me a favour and ask him what he's prepared to do to change to meet me halfway?"
Hmmmm... just a thought anyway.
Take care
H&H xx
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Hi Hoppy,
I guess I am a bit harsh at times. Didn't mean to be.
Good luck with this. I hope he has all the right answers. One thing that bothered me a bit was that the ex was emotionally abusive to the child and he still let that go. In favor of money? Or was it to avoid a big tug of war over the child?
Brave of you to come up here with this. I do wish it works out. But if he is not good enough for our Hoppy, let him hit the road!
Plucky
PS how's the work going?
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Thanks, Plucky. You're just blunt and direct and that's a useful thing. I really am helped by all the different kinds of voices here...yours too.
I have taken a couple days off before launching into Deadline Part 2. My NMom had her 95th bday this wknd and we had two family friends from France...I literally turned in the last of my files while Georges was wandering around my study chatting about the Bloomsburys. Very sweet people, very well-to-do, and infatuated with my mother. I was so exhausted I feared heart attack honestly. We got thru the weekend with ample attention to NMom, who is such a vampire for it that I am terribly depleted after one of her events.
I was so wiped out I left work (the day job, not the freelance one) 2 hours early and came home, left her a note I was unavailable all evening, and collapsed. Truth is, I took 15 mg. of diazepam before my chest pain calmed and I could relax a bit.
I am very lonely and stressed and a completely burned-out caregiver. It's not her physical care when she needs it that harms me, it's the exhaustion of deflecting her demands for praise. She's insatiable for publicity, admiration, and because she's such a unusualy lively, "cute" and "charming" specimen of extreme age she gets loads of it. So people are constantly asking me, with awe and reverence, how IS your mother? Only one in a dozen thinks to say to me, even when I'm gray faced and haggard...and how are YOU?
Thank heaven for this board. And thanks for asking. I will start Deadline Part 2 tomorrow...I'll make it. I think the Nstuff I live with, plus the dread of holidays, pile up on me every year at this time. I just slog and stagger and feel weaker and more scared each year. I do believe regeneration is possible but the horrible thing is, one of my deepest yearnings is for this chapter with my mother to be over...and there you go: the evil thought of wishing her passing.
No wonder I can't sleep. But it helped to say good night to you. Thanks again, and sorry if I hijacked the thread with this subject. I'm slowly catching on to my first-forum protocol! (I'll worry about the guy in January, but keep all these good cautions in mind. Right now, it's Survive 2005.)
Hopapooped
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Hiya Hopalong! I agree with advice to not invest alot- anything in fact- on any first date. I used to project so far into the future- esp if the man remotely resembled a " good guy". The old enabling stuff and desperate hopefulness and rationalization that so often comes from our abusive backgrounds and experiences growing up with abusive family members- regardless if they were Ns or not. I have always " been in love with the idea of being in love" and frankly, am not clear still what love actually looks like or feels like.I used to always buy the old line of soulmate stuff. The being alone part and the fact it is the only healthy choice when you have a history of picking abusive men, can and is often terrifying. For the first time in my life, I made that choice after ending my soul destroying " relationshiip" with my ex N. Painful and full of fear, but yo know what- the old cliche of things getting better with time, is absolutely true. I've made a concerted effort to reach out to people and make new friends who are healthy and supportive, resume activities I used to love and was cut off from by the N, and take chances and explore things i've always wanted to try but was too scared to. Fear has relatively quickly turned into curiousity, budding self confidence and joy! Keep your chin up, and kudos for your strength and ability to set boundaries! That too becomes addictive in a healthy and satisfying way! You are on the right path to sanity and well deserved love and happiness. don't beat yourself up for sometimes resuming old behavoiurs- happens to the best of su despite good intentions- takes time and healthy examples- and for me, professional counseling- to learn the skills to recognize old self destructive behavour and learn new healthy ones. We do what we know and what was modeled to us. It does get better! Hugs, Moira
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You are all welcome!
It is just one of many lists I have found over the last two years while researching about abusive buttholes!
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Sally,
Thank you for the list. I can honestly say that my new love interest does not have a single "quality" on that list.
My xnh used a rather opposite approach. He presented himself as the really nice guy who girls would take advantage of and he was a victim that needed to be rescued and loved. Because rescuing and fixing were all I knew about relationships, I bought into this hook, line and sinker and continued to care for and about him for 24 years. It was just a different form of manipulation that he found worked very well for him. That combined with his compulsive lying kept us all thinking he was a good guy right up til the end.
Just a little warning for those of you looking for a new love that n's do come in different shapes and sizes.
Brigid
Actually my h came across this way to begin with in our relationship. He was the victim.
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pink flags are: I couldn't understand how he could leave his young son on the oppostie coast with a woman so unstable
Second pink flag: is there something wrong about the fact that he blames her entirely for the failure of their marriage? I mean, if she is unstable, and prone to violence, maybe that's the simple fact of it. But I am wondering if there's something missing ("And my contribution to the misery of it all was _________").
Love,
Hopalong
Oh my, my, my ... These are both in Lundy Bancroft's first early warning sign in Why Does He Do That?. pp. 114-122
He speaks disrespectfully about his former partners.
* very focused on his bitterness or tells you about it inappropriately early on in your dating
* speaks about women from his past in degrading or condescending ways
* characterizes himself as a victim of abuse by women
* be aware whether he seems to accept any responsibility for what went wrong in his previous relationships.
* if everything was always the women's fault
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Lundy Bancroft's List: from pp 114 - 122
He speaks disrespectfully about his former partners.
Or glorifies and elevates them so you can never compete.
He is disrespectful toward you.
Sneers. Put downs.
Cutting. Sarcastic. Rude.
Idealizing you. Placing you on a pedestal. Treating you like fine china.
He does favors for you that you don't want or puts on such a show of generosity that it makes you uncomfortable.
Creates a sense of indebtedness.
He is controlling.
Gives too much advice.
A little negative about friends or family.
Comments about your looks or clothes.
He is possessive.
Nothing is ever his fault.
Makes promises he doesn't keep.
Has excuses for disappointing you or behaving irresponsibility.
He is self-centered.
Listens poorly.
Does a lot more than his share of the talking.
Chronically shifts the topic of conversation back to himself.
He abuses drugs or alcohol.
He pressures you for sex.
He gets serious too quickly about the relationship.
He intimidates you when he's angry.
Gets too close to you when he's angry.
Pokes. Pushes. Puts finger in your face. Blocks your way. Restrains you.
Shouts you down. Behaves in any which makes you flinch or feel afraid.
Vaguely threatening comments.
Drives recklessly or speeds up when angry.
Punches walls. Kicks doors. Kicks objects.
Throws things around.
He has double standards.
He has negative attitudes toward women.
He treats you differently around other people.
He appears to be attracted to vulnerability.
My t says these people actually look for receptivity. In other words they look for weak personal boundaries.
This goes for those who are younger or who have suffered recent traumatic experiences.
They are attracted to power. Seek partners who will look up to them with awe and allow him to lead her.