Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Bewildered on November 20, 2005, 06:11:24 PM
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I am not certain that I am in the right place to get some information,but here goes.
I have been seeing a lady for six months who is of a similar age to me. We have both been married and divorced for some years. We got along quite well and even though there were a few things that bothered me we seemed to be *connected*. She came from a military background and married a police officer and had two children who are now in their twenties. She is independent and knows what she wants and goes after it.
She has said many times that she is attracted to the "strong confident type."
One day we were discussing our previous partners and she told me a few details of two previous relationships with her boyfriends after her marriage broke up.
Her first boyfriend's name was BJ and she made it clear to me that they had an intense sexual relationship until one day when she arrived at his house and he was just sitting on the sofa. She asked what was wrong and he said the he was really depressed.
She then said to me, "Well, I said to him, that he needed to snap out of it and I left the relationship because a depressed man is no good to me." She never saw him after that.
She said this as if leaving like that was a common and natural consequence of encountering a depressed partner.
When she told me this story I recall feeling strongly disturbed by the apparent harshness of her reaction .
Her next boyfriend was George who stayed with her for eight years .She told me that George was selfish and vain and always had to "be in the right." She described her contribution as compliant and accomodating. She then said that when she was fitted with orthodontist braces, he dumped her because he did not want to be seen at his birthday party with a woman with braces on her teeth. This story sounded implausible because it seemed impossible for her to spend eight years with one person before discovering that he was so shallow. She also mentioned that it took her ,"Five years before I fell in love with George." She said that if I ever asked George his take on the breakup he would say that ,"she wanted it all her own way."( I do know George casually)
About three weeks ago, my car broke down. The repair wiil run to about $1000- and this means that she would need to come pick me up rather that I drive to her house (We spend tuesday nights and saturday night together)
When I spoke to her just after my car stopped, I said that the situation made me feel,"Depressed and it had triggered a migraine".
I also knew that saying this may be a risk because of what happened with BJ, but I said it anyways.
Her attitude toward me changed soon after,She became cold and snappy and brittle and two weeks later called me to tell me that she had found someone else and we were done.
I am in shock. What is going on here.
I had a call yesterday from a mutual friend who said that she(my girlfriend) told him a few days ago,"I had no idea that he(me) got so depressed - that is no good to me!" My friend commented that she said this as if everyone else felt that same way about depressed people..
Should I try to go see her and unravel it or talk it out or is there some personality issue in her that is so judgemental and twisted that it makes reconciliation impossible?
Thanks for reading this ,
Bewildered.
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Hey Bewildered,
I am going to be brutual with you and say she sounds like the use and abuse type of person. The type of person who sees every relationship has a usefulness and useby date once the used by date has passed. So has the value of the person. I understand that you may have feeling for her but your problems is this: Do you really need to stay with her?
She sounds like she may be emotionally abusive or alternatively be sufferring from a narcisistic personailty (otherwise know as a N person here). It may be worthwhile arming spending some time to work out how you really feel about her and from then you need to work out what you believe the cost of staying with her is. If you don't and you allow things to drag on things may get emotionally and / or physically abusive. Take some time and space, utilise the people around you and make sure that you have a support network in place reagardless of your decision. So that way when you make a decision whatever the decision may be you won't have to be alone!
GOOD LUCK!
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Hi, Bewildered! Let me answer: "what is she thinking?" by saying: it doesn't matter anymore. She could be thinking aliens are in her nostrils....that you are the devil......that she is Paris Hilton.....
Sad to say, but it just doesn't matter anymore. or to be blunt...who cares what she thinks?
She dumped you rather rudely. She didn't bat an eyelash. Why? Doesn't matter. Because she did it, and did so in such a manner, it is now time for you to move on. It hurts, I am sure. But it is time for you to think about you. And take care of you, and have some compassion for yourself.....and not spend your precious energy on this emotional vampire any longer.
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Thanks guys- I am not really wanting a reconciliation so much as answers from the good people on the forum. I have rethought my wants and I would like someone who does not behave in such a callous manner.
Her actions and her conversations indicate a cruel heart and possibly some NPD traits( I have been reading a lot of other posts and NPD rings true here).
She never, ever complained to me about anything that I did which may have upset her or irritated her.She seemed to be a most even tempered,tolerant and accepting woman.I thought that she was so understanding. Not a whine nor a bitch session. She appeared to accept my friendship with other women and never objected to my stayng in touch with a couple of my old girlfriends as 'friends'. She always said that she does not get jealous -EVER (a rare woman indeed?)
There were a few times when she *snapped* at me over trivial things and at those times she yelled at me for three seconds and then reverted to Miss Sunshine and Light.
What does it all mean?
I will get past this in a week or so but some insight would help the healing process .
Thanks, Bewildered.
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Hi Bewildered,
I agree with mum, it isn't important what she thinks. It sounds unstable and it may be worthwhile on looking on ways to move on but at the end of the day its your choice so be mindful of that you won't get the answers from anyone else.
Good luck
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I might be wrong but I think I have the answer.
She is thinking:
1. I am perfect! So I deserve perfection! No mere mortal will drink from my cup! Begone!
2. If you are depressed, you might need something from me at some point. That is not going to happen. Begone!
3. How dare you be depressed? You're with me! The epitome of wonderfulness! You obviously don't deserve it! Begone!
4. Depressed? It might reflect on me! Begone!
5. All of the the above. Begone!
Plucky
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Hi Bewildered,
She sounds absolutely AWFUL! :shock:
I would hate to be with someone who isn't able to weather the storms with me. I think you should have left her after she told you why she left that poor man sitting on his sofa in the throes of depression.
I imagine she makes her partners feel depressed. I would be depressed if I was with someone like that. Then she kicks them when they're down... Yeuck! It sounds like she has a "no nonsense" attitude to stuff like this- she is a machine, not a human being who is caring and who has compassion. Never mind about her, why would YOU like to be with someone like this?
You had a lucky escape.
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Welcome Bewildered,
I quite honestly think you are lucky that this relationship did not drag on any longer than it did. This woman shows a very strong lack of empathy--a true sign of an n personality. I married two of them and it is not a place you want to be. I agree with mum--who cares what she is thinking, she is a predator who is looking for someone she can manipulate and control. I don't think there is much more to it--be glad she is out of your life.
Brigid
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Hello Bewildered:
Should I try to go see her and unravel it or talk it out or is there some personality issue in her that is so judgemental and twisted that it makes reconciliation impossible?
You will decide this......it sounds like you may have already decided but just in case you have a setback and start thinking about talking it out......
Maybe...ask yourself some questions first:
1. Do you want to be with someone who is without empathy, judgemental, twisted, callus and cruel?
2. Would you treat her the way she treated you, in the same situation?
3. Do you want to be with someone who treats you the way you treat her?
4. Is it herrrrr.......you're really interested in unravelling stuff with, or it is just hard to let go of the idea of being in a relationship with someone you thought was even tempered, tolerant, accepting, and understanding...but who isn't really like that? (It's shocking isn't it? :shock:)
Welcome to the board!
Sela
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Hello Bewildered,
I can relate to your name because when choosing friendships, I often am...bewildered. I have discovered that (when I come out of my cocoon) I like to be around intelligent, funny conversationalists. Preferably ones who make compassionate noises about underdogs. My blindness is that I will assign all kinds of positive attributes to these people that are not in evidence, like generosity, kindness, compassion, etc. The truth is they are intelligent and funny and hold a great conversation, period. And sure enough, if I even think about making a "withdrawal" on the friendship by asking for a favor, the doors and windows get shuttered up in a nanosecond. It can be rather startling from a person who provides enjoyable company.
People like this are emotionally unavailable. They give sunshine on their own terms, at their convenience, on their timetable. It seems completely contrary to your experience with the person up to that point. Oh, and never mind the fact that you have done the person countless favors and figure it's your turn. It's never your turn. They cannot, cannot muster up any support for something that wasn't their idea or need.
This is rather brutal to be dropped just because your car broke down and you used the D word. Sheesh. This is a blessing in disguise! Good for you for wanting to learn from your experience. :)
Hope this helps. MP
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All of the replies so far have helped me enormously to understand what she is REALLY like when the fun times cease and adversity presents itself. Her behavior is probably the most accurate indicator of her true nature and her behavior is appalingly self-centered.
I agree that with MP. I also ascribe qualities to others without any evidence. These people DO spread sunshine on THEIR terms and do close the account when you try to make a withdrawal.
I am stiil sruggling with the loss of a fantasy rather that the loss of someone who was authentic. I guess that a lot of my ideas and beliefs about this woman were formed in the GOOD times when the fun flowed freely.
I am taking it a day at a time.
Bewildered.
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More confusion !!!
My (ex) girlfriend showed up at a social function last night with her new guy.
He is ten years older that me and looks kind of lost. She looked at me several times ,winked and eventually came over and sat with me and draped her arm around my neck.(WTF!) She asked me if I would dance with her later. I replied that she looked quite busy with her new guy. She replied that he can't dance very well.
She then went on to tell me that he was just recently "Out of a long relationship and that he has a lot to learn." She also made a point of telling me that she thinks that,"He has the hots for me but I do not feel the same about him Not for me." She went on to tell me that they both like bush walking and traveling and so on. I just got up and went to the bathroom and then sat with another group. I never did dance with her -
Weird stuff!
Bewildered once more !
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Oh MY, Bewildered,
Here's a wee imaginative exercise.
What about if CLARITY was hiding under Mr. Bewildered's clothes?
Just for a private chuckle, run this scene:
Se drapes arm around Bewildered. Clarity immediately, politely but firmly, removes her arm from is person.
She goes, wanna dance with me? Clarity goes, No, I don't.
She goes blahblah..beginning to badmouth and belittle the new bf.
Clarity cuts her off: I'm sorry, I don't want to listen to you run him down. Excuse me, I'm off.
Best of luck.
Clarity exits (classy to the bone).
She begiins to develop a twitch in her eyelid.
Hopalong
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Thanks Hoppie for that *lesson* in assertiveness. She sent me an email this morning which I am not going to open(delete instead) because I just don't want to have any connection with her ever again.
What was I thinking two days ago -* Reconciliation WTF, no way !!!*
She and her kind can go jump, and not on me.
I do feel sorry in advance for her new boyfriend .
This is a a salutory lesson in not acting on the significance of those red flags.Her treatment of BJ should have been enough for me to grasp that she is a hard hearted Hannah and I am going to suffer the same treatmentfrom her eventually (which I did)
(A little less) Bewildered.
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Hey Bewildered,
I just had a conversation with a friend who told me that the people like that need to boost their self-esteem by their use and abuse of control of others. She may try it again and again and continuously for a while so be prepared! Don't make the mistake I did and allow the behaviour to be acceptible! Draw a line in the sand and start preparing to move on! Glad to hear that your taking the chance you have! :)
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Hiya Bewildered:
Isn't it incredible how very N some people act?? :shock: It just floors me!
As ifffff she had not pitched you away like a child does with an unwanted toy...she makes sweety nicey.
As ifffff she has some residual owner's rights over you... she drapes her arm...like you're her bud.
As ifffff you are her closest confidant...and without empathy or regard to your feelings...... she tells you details about her new boy friend.
As ifffff you care and assuming you would have no choice but to be stilllllll interested in her... she dangles candy in front of your eyes.....a precious, priceless dance with her-wonderfulness?
As ifffff she is totally not worth wasting another minute on......you get up and go away!!
Good for you Bewildered!!! Fantastic!! That's the exact thing to do, imo!!!
And then.....as ifffffffffff she has something to say that you would be minutely interested in, as iffffffffff she might be able to play you one more time.....she sends you an email. (Or maybe she's ticked that you didn't jump at the chance to dance with her.....or maybe she's confused as to why her hooks aren't grabbing and so she's trying a different angle????).
But you promptly ignor and plan to delete that Nish email!!!
Bravo Bewildered!!! Way to go!! Do it!! Push delete!!!
You're so right....you don't want a connection with this one!!! Good for you!!
You deserve a woman who treats you with honour and respect, not one who's trying to fish you in and throw you back, over and over again for sport!!
Sela
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Hi Bewildered,
My guess is that she didn't have a suitable replacement "part" lined up before you and your car had the audacity to break down.
She's trying to figure out if you've figured her out or if she can seduce you back. In essence, you are dumping her now instead of the other way around. she's just trying to get you back to arrange reality to make her feel back in control of all the outcomes. Forget it! What does the song say? "We don't get fooled again!!!"
I'm so proud of you for deleting the email! She's shown you her true colors, so believe her!
Way to go. Big hug, MP
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hi and welcome Bewildered! Excellent posting and I admire your honesty and emerging boundaries. I get where you're coming from and how difficult it is to recognize abuse, get out of fantasy land, and run!!! As to her " dumping you for discussing your depression"- totaly makes sense. I suffer from bipolar disorder and in the beginning my ex N was ever so supportive and understanding- NOT- but he said all the right things. Prior to going out, he'd carefully spent months reading me and setting up the con. He knew I have been dumped and rejected all too often by ment once I've revealed this illness. Once I was his " object and willing prey" he quickly used this confidence to betray me, cut me down and do this publicly as welll as privately. He used to call my shrink to tell her " She must be psycotic and need to be in hospital because she gets upset and angry with me when I tell her she's crazy and her responses are inappropirate". Ns have a characterisitc in common when dealing with our appropriate expressions of - what they perceive to be- neative emotions. Ns- although they thrive on negative attention as much as positive- hate emotins. Not soemthing they are wired to understand and not capable of empathy and feeling. although they are usually accomplished actors and con artists! No wonder your ?( hopefully, permanent- ex) dumped you after your mentioning depression. You are flawed in her books- what will other people think???!!!- and now she is faced with the prospect of dealing- yuck!! with disgusting negative emotions!!! God forbid you expect or need support. A waste of energy to fake this in her books! What's init for her! Nothing but irritation and exhaustion- imagine having to expend all that energy with that con game and what are you possibly going to be able to give her if you can't deal with yourself- in her likely opinion. All this is solely my opnion and experience. Been there! RUN!!!! She's continuing to attempt to engage you and as I said, Ns love and thrive on chaos and negative attention. Keeps you tied to them and that door open to possibility of her getting whatever that something is she thinks you'll provide. Even if it's your misery and trying to get explanations etc. Chaos- great for her until she can secure another unsuspecting prey who is a source of N supply. I totally applaud your decision to ignore and erase any emails without reading them. Keep it up!!! I know how difficult it is- went through same dance with my ex N- and finally got to the same point you're at!!! Nothing Ns and abusers hate more than absolutely no contact or response!!! They can't play the game if you refuse to play at all!!! Eventually they do give up and move on to the next one!!!! Chin up and keep opsting!!! Hugs, Moira
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I fell really overwhelmed by the support and encouragement from you good people on this board . The rejection still hurts a little but after posting and reading your responses i realize that it is not HER whom I want back rather it is just the hurt and pain of being dumped when I showed a human frailty( depression). I am seeing with clarity how this woman had a cold and heartless part to her character which was unleashed on me when I was vulnerable .Ironically,four weeks previous to our breakup she was driving her car with a girlfriend and I on a Sunday drive. I was in the rear seat reading a book. We were side-swiped by a minivan and her car was totaled. She needed three stiches to her lip and we were all shook up badly. I then helped her search for a new car( in spite of the fact that mine had broken down) over the next 10 days.We eventually found what she was looking for but we went through a lot of auto dealers before we eventually found her dream car at a reposssesion auction. A week later I was toast. Go figure!
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Hey Clarity-Be,
There's a really cool invention in email that allows you to Block Sender.
I had to use it when I got dumped by selfish brutal indifferent Ns.
In past Glen Close times I had so much trouble letting go I would ask THEM to block MINE!
But I am very impressed. You did delete.
(Just in case you feel low or vulneralble, though, that Block Sender function's really cool...)
Keep it up. Yay for you!
Hopalong
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is Blocked Sender your blanket advice for tonight H?! Just joking. I agree,
I also use the feature to move certain people's emails to a specified 'unopened' file, then I can read them if & when I feel resilient & I don't get a clogged up inbox.
Bewildered, at least she showed you herself in full bloom pretty fast and you could get out before you were tied together some way.
Hope you feel better soon.
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Hiya Bew,
It must have hard to share that you were feeling depressed and then be rejected because of that. Maybe you felt depressed because you knew that ther ewas something wrong in paradise. Maybe you told her in order to make her let you go. I mean, you did know that she dumped one BF for that very reason, after a long time, and was proud of it. So you actually dumped her, all around.
And maybe on some level she knows it.
She's got real problems. You've got real friends.
Plucky
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I am tempted tp play her Nstyle games in an attempt to manouver her back into striking range and then dump her in some way. However that has a pettiness about it that does not appeal to me in many ways. Even if I succeeded in dumping her,there is always the possibility that she is so cut of from her feelings that she may just shrug it off. It is my opinion that she is only capable of adolescent or infantile and shallow feelings -those that we sometimes experience in moments of gratification,like licking that ice-cream or opening our birthday presents.
Loyalty,respect for others sensitivities and the warmth that comes from authentic connection to a partner is surely missing in her. She objectified me and discarded me when she was faced with an inconvenient situation in the form of my depression.
I was aware (as one post said) that declaring openly to her that I was depressed was a risk in light of her treatment of BJ who was also depressed and discarded. However, something told me to tell her - I just had to push the point and take the risk to find out if she was as callous as I suspected she was.
She was indeed as callous and cold as I feared. I found out what I did not want to be true, but she is what she is.
I am still busting to know what was in that email, but I take the point that ignoring her is the best option. There is nothing that she has, or is that I want.
A sadder but wiser,
Bewildered.
BTW There is a high probability that I will see her and new B/F again on Saturday night at our dinner dance. I am practicing a little callousness of my own in preparation of that event.
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She needed three stiches to her lip and we were all shook up badly. I then helped her search for a new car( in spite of the fact that mine had broken down) over the next 10 days.We eventually found what she was looking for but we went through a lot of auto dealers before we eventually found her dream car at a reposssesion auction. A week later I was toast. Go figure!
And your car broke the next week and she didn't stand by you and return the favour of getting you back on your feet. Well she disgruntedly gave you a ride some places but you had to suffer abuse because of it. She needs a cardboard cut out for a man, not a real one.
What a horrible person!
Bewildered: "I am practicing a little callousness of my own in preparation of that event."
I'm curious as to what you've got up your sleeve for Saturday night!! -the gossipy side to me is coming to the surface!
Care to share?
8)
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You guys really *get* her. The reality is slowly dawning on me too. It is so painful to be confronted with abusive behavior from someone who was so much fun to be with.
However, anyone can be fun and exciting in the good times. I guess that a lot about the dark side of our character is revealed when the waters become turbulent.
I am working on some tactics to use if she approaches me at our dinner dance Saturday evening.
Last Saturday I felt almost paralysed when she came up behind me and put her arm around my neck. This time will be different.
She is most likely to ask me to dance and my response will be one of these-
" I am booked solid until November 2007, I will let you know if there are any cancellations."
" I never told you this before but my mother can dance better that you can - not tonight honey."
" Do you mean your favorite - the horizontal Tango?"
" My urologist wants to talk to your doctor urgently - "
" That's an interesting dress - did you make it out of a shower curtain?"
" Your B/F over there looks flushed in the face. You have that dog collar pulled too tight."
Anyone have any contributions please?
A chuckling, Bewildered.
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Hi there Be,
all of these are funny responses. But any of them will let her know you still have emotion relating to her. Best would be to not give here any supply at all. Just say, "no thanks" and walk away.
Plucky
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Amen, Plucky.
Beclearing, buddy---
CLASSY ALL THE WAY. That is what you are.
That is what a nonresponse, simply walking away in calm and dignity...would be.
MOST unsatisfying to a narcissist.
You can process the hurt in private, here, on your own time, in safe spaces.
She does not have the right and should not be trusted.
She might beat you at the game. She's wily. That would not mean she "wins" but why expose your belly?
You be CLASSY and CALM and physically walk away, body relaxed.
That's my pushy advice but please let us know what you do and how it goes!
You classy man you. You way-underreactive dignified observer, you.
Hopalong
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Hi Bewildered and all! I agree with post that addresses no response at all. In my experience, any response- including negative or sarcastic ones- backfire. Ns thrive on any attention and even sarcasm and insults keep that- as I said before- dysfuntional dance going. It only really serves to continue hurting yourself in the end, as no matter how bruised you are right now, this woman isn't capable of any empathy or respect and she'll continue to abuse you. Rest assured, she's not up at night, pacing the floor thinking of possible responses to you! for me, I eventually- I know how difficult it is to make a clean break!- and stopped going to any of our old familiar places. continued torture for me- even just seeing ex N- who was usually there with someone else( got to rub your nose in it- even if it's without any communication at all. Presence IS a message!) Stopping going to everyplace we used to haunt has stopped my obsessing. Th eold out of sight- eventually- out of mind. no contact whatsoever- they hate that! A personal note- I just heard through the grapevine( have to set boundaries now with these friends and as soon as they mention his name, hold up my hand and say I do not want to hear anything at all about him)- that he's showing up at my usual meetings, dressed to the nines( in snappy clothes I actually bought him. As if the message is a slap in the face for me!), in the company of a woman and speaking about " some wonderful, understanding woman he's dating". As if I give a shit!!! I feel sorry for her, but am going to resist any kind of warning- even if it were to be through girlfriends- not my stuff and it's totally her shit and her judgement. I'm not responsible for rescuing her- an old pattern for me. Hang in! I hope you don't give in to that old curiousity about what could possibly be in her emails- that to your credit you're erasing without reading!- whatever th econtent- only a hook and a con. What I found helpful to curb curiousity. was I actually wrote out some choice examples of my ex's abuse- either action/verbal- and taped some notes to both my computer and my phone. forced myself to read them before listening to any viocemail or looking at my emails. Helped put things and my emotions in perspective! Hang in! you're moving in the right direction and getting stronger and healthier! sending positive energy to you! Moira
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Hello Bewildered,
Yes, totally agree with everyone that the best response is a very bland boring, no thank you, and walking away. The genius is in its simplicity.
1. There's nothing in this reply for N to work with
2. You set a boundary
3. They are more skilled at verbal fencing and live for it
4. When you don't fence, you take away their fun. Just don't play.
5. The best part: they never expect this. 8)
It seems less than satisfying at first but really Silence is Power when resisting an N's seduction. This is different from voicelessness because it's YOUR choice.
I wouldn't term your new attitude as callousness because that has a negative connotation. Our self talk matters. I would consider it "shielding" yourself from her advances and leaving yourself open to non-Ns. Like a friendly forcefield sending out love and light to those who appreciate it and can return it.
You sound like a pretty cool guy. I hope you meet someone fun and emotionally mature this weekend. Good luck! MP
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MP,
I've lost traclk but are you the same peson who said one can "leave Ns on a little island of opinion with nowhere to go"??
I love that.
(Sorry Becalmwildered...digression, but maybe it's not!)
Amazingly clear list, MP, of why silence to Ns is powerful. Truly amazing.
Thank you.
Hopalong
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Hiya Hoppy,
are you the same peson who said one can "leave Ns on a little island of opinion with nowhere to go"??
I love that, too, but cannot take credit for it. :? It is very appropriate here, isn't it?
Take care, :D MP
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Ok , I get the tactic of just saying "No thanks" witha blank look and turning away.It must drive NPD people crazy. However, the lady in question is not IMO, NPD. She does have the callous dsregard for the impact of her sel-centered behavior on others. She is two-faced and shallow and seeks to "have it all' at the expense of others ,but she does not have the other signs and symptoms of NPD.
My question is whether I should stiil use the "No Thanks" coolness or should I tell her more?Engage her in some way to say a few things that I would enjoy saying.
I am new at understanding NPD trait people and their modus operadi.
As a final comment, she has made the point several times that George(her 8 year B/F) will not talk to her, dance with her or acknowledge her presence in any way.She tells it like he is the one with the problem and implies that he is so bitter and twisted that he cannot even be civil to her while all she wants is to be civil and friendly,pleasant and courteous.
What gives?
Bewildered, getting clearer.
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Hey Beclearing,
Doesn't matter if she's diagnosed as NPD or not.
She's nasty and she hurt you.
IMHO, letting her be busily "telling you" stuff is allowing more violation on top of violation.
I'd stick to the silence and walking away plan. Don't worry about getting the labels right.
Your classy dignified silence and literally physically walking your body away, making immediate tracks in the opposite direction, also means NOT LISTENING to her...
Really. It's the most powerful self-affirming and dignified thing you could "say".
Make sense?
Hopalong
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Yes I guess that you are right Hopalong - It's back to plan A "No thanks." or maybe," I would prefer not." or some similar polite but dispassionate refusal. It does feel kind of lame in a way but I defer to your wisdom.
Not so ,Bewildered
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Oh BRAVO.
What I bet is feeling lame is just that it's so unlike the movie scripts and dialogues in your head you've been writing about a "getting satisfaction" kind of encounter.
We're trying to tease you away from dreaming about "scripts" and actually being the ACTION HERO.
As in, taking the ACTION of walking away.
No dialogue required at all.
Or if you MUST, "No thanks" plus immediate walking is less revealing/vulnerable than "I would prefer not.." which sounds a teensy bit too wounded and fragile. You see, you're so calm and dignified you won't even let slip a syllable that indicates hurt, huffiness, wounded pride, injury...NOT TO HER.
See? You're gonna be an ARMADILLO around her (and when you get home afterward and look back on the evening, you won't feel lame at ALL). I swear. You'll see the quiet power in it. You'll feel it.
Yay!
Hopaflyonthewall
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Ok, I can do the blank, aloof look at her standing up and then the slow walk away, but she is most likely to approach me when I am sitiing down alone. In that case what do I do or say and stiill be the 'cool detached one' ? I am thinking that if she comes and sits down beside me to talk, or to ask me to dance and I then stand up and walk away with a "No thanks" it kind of screams *hurt, cut and bleeding ex-lover is pissed and is in retreat licking his wounds*.and she gets to feel victorious over me again and I feel like a loser. Bad outcome.
What action on my part( sitting down) is likely to leave her confused, befuddled and feeling as if SHE has just been kicked to the kerb? I always did want to take *Acting 101*
Bewildered again.( but this is fun)
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Hiya Bewildered.... and welcome...
How about if your sat down and she comes over to talk you say "Oh excuse me, I just have to go to the bathroom", then up and away. You know your not pissed and licking your wounds... what does it matter what she thinks? She may be confused but with N traits, she's only confused because her supply isn't responding and she thinks it should... as she thinks you should respond.
Make any sense?
Take care
H&H xx
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Oooh, brilliant, H&H, I was stuck on that one.
Bew, here's the latest thought in my directorial little brain.
Just in case you can't control everything...remember you can't control everything.
(Including what she thinks or feels).
If she:
sits down on a couch with you
backs you up against a kitchen counter
runs down the sidewalk after you saying, Wait!
stands on her head and bounces through the house like a pogo stick...
You can still control what you do.
You can walk away.
You can walk away even if it involves getting up/out/over/around first.
And again, it's not about what she or other people think, it's about you DOING the action of a dignified man who simply respects himself (even if that's new, so what? the fact is, you are in the present and that moment choosing to act from a place of self-respect) and therefore chooses to promptly withdraw from any contact with her.
I think while playing acting coach I might suggest a different MOTIVATION for our clever Jimmy Stewart. One motivation could be revenge, spite, being emotionally petty and wanting to punish.
Another motivation could be distaste for what is toxic and destructive, and respect for self.
I think you don't have to display contempt for her to display respect for yourself.
I think it's more dignified if you take the vengeance out of it.
Just a direct exit from her company.
Let the play be itself...as it will unfold. You just take care of your own character.
Hopalong
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Hey Bewildered but getting it now,
I know you are super alert to the whereabouts of your ex. So if she comes towards you, even when she is still far away, just get up and move. Act as if you don't see her. Go into the loo if you have to. Don't let her near you. She is full of negative crap. Don't let her hand it to you. Don't make eye contact, just act as if there is something more interesting to look at elsewhere. Look around while she is talking and interrupt with a reaction to something you saw across the room, then say excuse me and go there in the middle of her sentence. Never say 'sorry' for any reason. If at a loss for what to say, just say 'Mmmmm".
Plucky
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Hey, Bewildered.
I think you are getting a lot of "don't even bother" messages from people here because that's our experience. I know that any type of "reaction" I have to my exN, whether normal people would find it appropriate or not, is a warped little invitation in his head ("Oh, I got a reaction......me...mee....meee......etc") It doesn't matter what you say.
However, I think sometimes just walking away, or shutting down just isn't proactive enough. You may have to back it up...not with an explanation (they don't get those....think it's engagement....) but with a word or two to shut them down.
NO! Is a really good word. Of course most N types think it means something other than no, so I get why Hoppy would have said, just leave.....but NO!! said in increasingly louder volumes even gets the real jackass to stop (public humiliation and all).
So, she bugs you to dance? "No, thank you.....and if needed, repeat NO NO NO" And then leave...she follows? Loudly, say "stop bothering/harrassing me.." My ex hates that.....but when I hang up the phone, there is not a lot he can do. So you could say, more proactively, exactly WHAT YOU WANT HER TO DO/ NOT DO. Still, make it clear there is no debate.
Forget about retaliatory comments....they shout: "I still care and I sit up nights thinking of what I will say to you".
I could add that you might not want to be in those social situations that she might also be in, for a while. Why? Because unless YOU are completely clear of her energy/what she did to you, no matter what you say or do....the energy is still there. When you get to the point where she could be a gnat to you, someone you don't even think about, really, then seeing her in a club, with a new boyfriend, etc, won't even phase you at all. She could be anyone.
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Hi Bewildered,
Someone here once said they have developed a "don't mess with me" aura. Not hostile, exactly, but a "I'm here to live not play your games" type of attitude.
I suggest channeling Clint Eastwood or Charles Bronson. These guys can stay at their table and exude enough testosterone to ward off anyone silly enough to try and take their territory. Practice squinting. Study your martial arts. Sit with your back to the wall facing the door, Mafioso style. Watch the playing field unfold before you.
You are sitting at your table. A human being approaches and you smile. They sit down. You are having a good time. Miss Convenience spots this island of congeniality and swims forth smiling. You face her straight on. Your expression is Buddha like, inscrutable, blank. No smile, no frown. Let her make the first move. Miss C: waah waah waah. waah waah wahh. Clint: it doesn't matter to me, do what you like, I'm going to enjoy my drink and my friend here.
Basically, imagine yourself in a western bar where there are no rules of propriety. Detachment, my son. This you must keep in your heart and mind always, grasshoppah.
May the force be with you, MP
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Bewildered, but getting Bestronger,
you asked:
What action on my part( sitting down) is likely to leave her confused, befuddled and feeling as if SHE has just been kicked to the kerb?
I personally don't think there is anything that you could say or do which would leave her feeling "kicked to the curb." She probably isn't capable of feeling as such and would, in her mind, make it all your problem.
Trust me, we have all wanted to say or do that perfect thing which would make them feel that we scored one for the good guys, but doing or saying is not the answer. Indifference is the only method of getting back at them and regaining the upper hand. Any engagement will be turned to their favor and viewed by them as your need to have them back in your life. They are actively looking for any kind of reaction by you to their presence as a sign that they are still in control. As mum said, perhaps you would be better not to be around her until she is just a pesky gnat and you can treat her as such. Getting on with your life and being happy without her is your greatest revenge.
Brigid
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Ok, Your suggestions are locked in. When I was younger(in my thirties) I apparently has a cool aloofness which brought advantages at times, but it also cut me off from decent women. I have become much more open and softer as a person since then and in so doing I may have become vulnerable to manipulation and conniving behavior -I guess that opennesss invites the possibilities of exploitation and attack.
I am not too bad at indifference ,but the silent,walking away treament still has a *voiceless* ring about it. It is like I am biting my tongue and lack the will and the courage to speak my mind. I do take the point that blurting out some sarcastic comment is *engagement* to abusers. If I also try to explain to her how her behavior was so hurtful and humiliating that she willnever GEt it.
Anyone who dumps their partner because he said that he was "depressed" is incapable of sincere human appropriate emotion responses, so any discussion EVER is pointless on my part.
Bewildered ( practising cool indifference)
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hiya Be: What if you wrote down what you wanted to say to her.....and then burn it? I have done that numerous times...and it was pretty helpful. The person never got the message (they woudn't "get it" anyway) but I still got to say it....and then send it up into the sky...maybe they will get it someday, but it's not my job....
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Be, dear:
Silence IS speech.
Just of a different kind.
I can't wait to hear how it goes because I think you're going to feel the satisfaction of self-respect rather than revenge.
Promise to speak it all here and let us know!
Hopalong
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Ok, Yesterday I went over to her house when she was at work and collected some stuff of mine which was in her garage. I put the key that she had given me to her house in a white envelope and wrote "My KEY" on it and taped it to her door. I did not go inside the house or spend a moment longer that I needed. I drove away with my stuff. So long honey!
Saturday night will be so good - I have the 'cool Clint' thing working here. Yep! Nope!
I am so cool I am almost frozen over ! I will resemble a slow walkin' slow talkin' statue. Flinty Clinty.
She sent me another email - I zapped it dead.
The guy formerly known as 'Bewildered '
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:P :P :P :P
Flinty Clinty, you made my day!
Hopalong
:lol:
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No longer Bewildered and totally indifferent,
Flinty Clinty--what a perfect persona. I'm dying to hear the results.
Brigid
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Hello Flinty Clinty :D
Wow, you are doing awesome damage control. Cool.
Since you came to the board bewildered and desiring to learn...and because I read these articles later and thought of your situation, I post these links for everybody. They have to do with takers and caretakers.
Bewildered, you didn't strike me as a "caretaker" in your posts, but Miss At My Convenience may have mistaken you for one. She is definitely a taker. And from your description of her family life (occupations that involve a lot of control) she is probably very controlling herself.
http://www.rebuilding.ca/caretaker.htm
http://www.seniormag.com/caregiverresources/articles/caregiverarticles/relationships/codependent-relationships.htm
Another great site I just discovered is www.innerbonding.com (http://www.innerbonding.com). very helpful articles.
Enjoy your free weekend!!! :) MP
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Hey, this is today- Saturday.
"You gotta ask yourself lady, do you REALLY wanna come near me - are you feeling lucky lady?"
( Just thinking out loud here.)
I got the squinting eyes and the square jaw and the head held high and the wide open chest.
Bring her on.....
Maybe I will give her two,three syllables- tops. Maybe a grunt or a "no thanks" with a slow side to side head movement and one raised eyebrow -- and then I slowly get up and take another lady around the floor for some slow dancing .
I got so much indifference I could can the surplus and sell it at on eBay.
Flinty Clinty ( The wuss formerly known as Bewildered)
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Hey Bewlildered,
What else can I say, you saw that the decision that you thought was too hard was way easier than you expected! The strength that you have is not indifference to her, but forms the backbone of what is acceptible behaviour to you! Congratulations and keep it up and don't ever forget the reasons why you took the actions you did!
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I have a real sharp navy blue suit picked out( made to measure too) with a starched white shirt and a deep red nectie. New shoes too. I called another lady friend of mine who likes to hang out with me and we are going to the dinner dance as a couple(she knows my ex G/F and is not too impressed by her recent antics)
Wish me luck !
Jeez, I hope ex G/F shows up tonight !!
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Hey Bewildered,
Good move going back to face her with some support, especially if you are looking sharp and doing something you enjoy.
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Dear Be: I think you should go out have fun for YOU!! And for the person you are with. If experience (of me and many friends) is any indication.....you will run into your ex when you are: unshaven, slovenly, in need of a haircut and not the least bit put together!!
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I got so much indifference I could can the surplus and sell it at on eBay
:P :P :lol: :lol: :P :P SNORT
Ol' Flinty, Ol' Bew,
A man who has recovered his sense of humor is a MAN IN FULL!!
(Yep, it might just be a teeny bit deflating if she doesn't turn up...but don't you worry about that.) Remember, Flinty Clinty is so PRESENT, thinking gunslinger thoughts about banditos, that he just doesn't bother about one little spider scurrying around the floor of the bar. Or no spider.
You go have FUN! Ex-GF Dead-Draw Slaughter at the Snubbin' Corral might be cancelled, postponed, happen as planned, not happen, happen in some unpredictable way...but never you mind. Ol' Flinty Clinty's just doin' his two-step, movin' on in the dance o' life.
I better stop before I choke on Westernisms, but have fun and don't worry!
Giddiyap!
Hopalong Cassidy
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Hey Gang, she didn't show up ! Maybe next week, maybe never, maybe she is pissed because I don't answer her emails .Maybe it all doesn't matter and what matters is that I got my freedom and my sanity back and I am doing "Clint" pretty good over here .
I had a nice time last night. I teased a lot of ladies and made them laugh and scared a few too! Got two invites to dance from ladies whom I never met before . This Flinty Clinty thing is really working for me - awesome! ( I am starting to sound like a college man !)
Flinty Clinty( formerly known as Bewildered)
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Maybe...what matters is that I got my freedom and my sanity back...
Hey Bew,
That's GREAT. (Except maybe the scaring people part? Did Flinty get carried away and put the drop on somebody? Or was it just your dancing? :P)
It is wonderful thing that you got caught up in the present and had a good time ... and I bet that's why you did. What a swift passage you've made since you came on this board.
My old track record was from many months to even years to get over choosing bad eggs.
You are inspiriing!
Hopalong
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FC,
Good going. I'm sure you charmed a few ladies with that steely-eyed glare (maybe you need to be a little less steely if you're scaring some :shock:).
The bottom line is, who cares if she shows up or not. You are doing fine without her and when she does eventually show her face, you will be able to give her that totally indifferent, but very flinty look she deserves.
Brigid
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Not so scary Flinty Clinty has done a dumb thing . I opened a text message from her without thinking DELETE !!
She says that she is" feeling sad about what happened and misses me a lot". Go figure !
At least I did not reply to the message ,as much as I wanted to say something to 'needle' her.
Maybe her new guy has the personality of a box of rocks. Maybe she just wamts S*X . maybe , maybe, who cares .
I am too busy thinking about that nice lady I met Saturday night - emailed her today and we are going out for a "cup of tea and some stimulation conversation."
Finty Clinty.
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Ya know, even the toughest cowpoke can be undone by email.
I swear it would never have occcured to me to mention this here, but did you know there's this really cool feature on email called BLOCK SENDER???
Hey, got an idea for a new thread!
Seriously, FC, it's aloooooooone with a comuter monitor that one can lose one's nerve about not "just reading." The emotional hook's still in there...somehow email goes in between the ribs...I think it's disembodied, feeds fantasy...right. That's for the new thread.
But you HANG ON TO YER SADDLE AND KEEP RIDIN', PODNER...
Hopalong
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Hiya Clint!
You made my day with your party success. Way to go.
Your X is a punk who will never learn that her "sadness" is a result of her actions and their consequences. Her feelings are her responsibility. Let her go use someone else. Yeah, block sender.
I'm so glad you've moved on. Life's too short to chase people who don't appreciate you anyway. I hope one of these other ladies is wise enough to show appreciation for a nice guy. Good luck in your greener pastures. MP
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I received an email from a girl friend (G) of my Exg/f which has got me thinking about a few things.I know G quite well.
Apparently my Ex told G a few days ago that she realized that she wanted more from OUR relationship that just dancing on a saturday night and sex. She started to feel this way about two months ago.She also said that she wants someone to share her other interests like camping and bush walking and biking and eventually she would like to travel to see Europe. In a nut shell she said that she wants a life partner to fit into the vision that she has for her life. Fair enough.
I was reluctant to be involved in these activities when she suggested them in the first few months of our relationship, and so she did some of these things with other friends and usually told ne that they had a fine time and that she "missed me.".
'
However, there obviously was a time about two months ago when her needs and hopes for the future started to crystallize in her mind.
She was aware that her requirements from a relationship had changed, and she decided that she needed a change of partner to make her vision a reality.
She never said these words to me in any way. I knew that she wished to travel when she quit working but that is a long way off.
It appears to me that she then started to look for a replacement partner while maintaining a sexual
relationship with me without telling me that she was 'dreaming and hoping and looking' . I do remember her 'ogling' other guys and telling me about how "gorgeous" they were. Now THERE was a clue!!
Then I started to feel depressed ( Maybe my sonar beam was working pretty good ?) and when I told her that I felt unwell and depressed she became cool and distant and snappy.
She eventually found a guy who says that he likes all the same things that she does (some guys say that) and she signed him up and dumped me.
Did I have a right to be told by her that she wanted more out of a relationship and to have an open discussion about what we BOTH could do about that??
Was she sneaky NOT to tell me that she was 'looking' for a replacement for me. Was it fair not to tell me and so give me the choice to stay around while she 'hunted' or to leave and let her hunt alone.
It looks to me as if she wanted all the emotional,sexual and social benefits of staying with me UNTIL she found a new man and then her plan was to discard me, which she did.
I feel deceived and humiliated and exploited.
Were her tactics fair, decent or indecent ,self -centered or is this just par for the course in the dating game.
A little Bewildered(but still FC)
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Hello Be Clint,
She is clever. It really doesn't matter why she did what she did. She did it. And it was wrong. You were spot on not wanting to sign up for a lifetime of filling her needs and living her dreams. And now she has recruited your best friend to win you over. Just put on your waterproof because the shyte is still raining down.
Plucky
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Did you have a right...perhaps, but it's unenforceable.
You had a reasonable expectation, but it may be that you misjudged her character.
Was she sneaky...in my opinion, yes.*
Was it fair...of course not. Being dumped without explanation is NEVER "fair." But fair or not, I think what has to happen is a grieving process, rather than getting stuck in an "aggreived" state.
*I am wondering if part of the problem was a lack of open, skillful communication between you two, as well. Sometimes if there's not enough clear and skillful talking between people, there can be so many unspoken assumptions or unaddressed frustrations that somebody just ... bails.
And that really hurts.
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FC,
I'm a little confused about your recent post. Do you actually have feelings for this woman or not? Is it a pride thing as to who dumps who, or do you actually care about her and the potential for a relationship?
I guess I go back to what I wrote on page one of this thread--if two people in a relationship who care about each other can't communicate about their feelings, desires, hopes, dreams, etc., there is not a lot of hope for a future. If her feelings about the relationship had changed, but she couldn't talk to you about that--what does that say about you, how she can relate to you, how she thinks you would react, etc. I'm not saying that my opinions of her have necessarily changed, but you seem to be questioning your evaluation of the situation and that maybe you weren't being fair.
I think that her looking for a possible replacement while continuing the relationship with you, is a crumby thing to do, but I don't think all that uncommon. It sounded like the two of you did not invest a lot in the relationship from the beginning--so I see the potential for game playing to be fairly high. I guess you need to figure out how you really feel about her and then deal with the situation directly, rather than using a go-between with the he said/she said (I realize she is the one doing that, but you don't need to feed into it). That is pretty middle schoolish imo.
Brigid
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Hi Bewildered,
I just want to add that, in a normal relationship, when it breaks up for whatever reason, and even if you had been a real jerk, no woman would behave the way your ex has, for any reason.
If she is now re-telling the story to make herself out to be the misunderstood victim. I'm not buying it. Yes, there is a grain of truth in it - as there is in all good lies. That is making you question it from your still-fragile sense of self.
Do you really really believe this version of reality? I'm not convinced.
Try to let your friend know that she is capable of dishonesty, deceit, and cheating. Try to remember all the really sick things she has been doing since you broke up, and that a normal woman would have moved on by now, or at least be dealing with her feelings without resorting to the shenanigans your ex has been up to. If you were not the right life partner for her. why can't she leave you alone?
Plucky
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Clint,
come on, dude. this is spin control to G ("what happened between you and Clint?" "How could you dump a nice guy like him?" etc.) plus she is sending out a feeler through her friend G since email didn't work. Interesting that she could only outline more Good Times vs. Intimate Relationship. That is, she wants to cast an actor to take the part in her script. OK. That's what she wants.
The question is: what do YOU want? And go for it.
If you are looking for an appropriate response to well-meaning/nosy friends, just say X is a fun person but the chemistry is not there between you for a long term relationship. No bad guys. Just doesn't work for the long haul. That's all. No drama required. Or if you really want to get to the point, tell them what you've told us: you want someone who will support you in the bad times as well as the good times, just as you would for them.
Catch ya later, MP
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I do not have enough affection for this woman to think about resuming the relationship even if she did a U turn and headed my way begging and pleading.
There are two issues here for me which are causing me some problems -
Firstly-I now an fully aware that I have been in a somewhat limited but nevertheless strong relationship with someone who changed her expectations about what she wanted in an relationship and did not openly discuss those new wants and needs with me. Instead she started to go secretly ' on the prowl' looking for a replacement who shared her interests. I do acknowledge that people do change in their vision for their future -that is not my gripe. I am hurt because she stayed in the same good ole' relationship with me while she was 'hunting' for someone else . I fell deceived and foolish and used as the standby guy.
By not discussing her changed needs, she denied me my choice to move on if she had told me that she was actively seeking my replacement. If she had told me that she saw no future with me two months ago I would have been sad, but I would have understood her position. She was the one who wanted to change her direction, so in is her responsibility to articulate her revised vision to me.
Secondly I have the good old feeling of just being 'dumped' . Passed over, made obselete, superannuated - It is not any easier to bear now than when it happened to me once before when I was 26 years old. Call it pride- or dented self-esteem ; it does not matter what you call it because I realise that this issue IS mostly about my feelings of hurt and deception and not about any deep loss I feel for her.
She wants me to still like her and to be 'friends', Jeez I am fine thanks -got plenty of those.
Once again it is all about what she wants.
She did not enquire about my welfare of state of mind or my health because she could genuinely care less.
I have a 'cup of tea and a chat ' date tonight with a fine lady ( at least she looksand sounds fine)
A Flintier Clintier Bewildered
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GOOD for you, BeClinty.
One of the things that makes me see you as ultimately coming out of all this UNdepressed (after the dumpee pain passes...ohhh, been there)--is that you are very honest.
The lack of that's what has hurt you most about her behavior, and rightfully so.
I hope you'll talk openly and a lot with new dance partners about what you're looking for. Like sort of...be in the moment to enjoy, but also conjure up a positive mental image of the quality of person and relationship you want. Some weird way, I hear (haven't made it yet but I believe others!) that may make it more likely to come to you.
I've been used too. After I got over the hurt there was a period of anger, too. That passed also, and when it did, soon the pain receded.
I hope yours does fast, Buddy. Meanwhile, we're here for you.
Hopalong
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You guys are awesome - this place is the fast track to enlightenment ( Sorry, Dalai Lama).
Some of you have triggered off a thread of awareness in me about how LITTLE, my Ex and I talked about concerning any kind of future (except what we were planning next Saturday night) . I can put myself in her place and understand how our lack or communication about US,as a couple, may have set her up to yearn for a more emotionally predictable life or at the least,a partner who was INTO her and her interests a little more and willing to LIVE the relationship more fully.
I do acknowledge that I enjoyed and often initiated discussions of abstract ideas and concepts rather than our own immediate relationship issues - maybe she sensed how I may have used that as a strategy to create emotional distance and safety. Maybe,maybe not ? I am getting to know myself a little here too.
If, under every cloud there is a silver lining,(or a silver bullet) then this emerging awareness is just that.
However I also need to be cautious of women who behave like she did with callousness and a hard heart when faced with depression in their partner. I did hear the early warning bells, but I did not want to act on the information that I gathered by listening to them - at my subsequent peril ..
Flinty Clint.
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Hey Bewildered,
Can I try and see if I can add a little perspective here? She sounds like she is not strong enough to make a decision in life and live with it so what has she done? SHe left you hanging out to see if she could still have you! The thing with "G", I agree is just to keep tabs on you and see what your upto to make sure if nothing else goes well she can still keep in touch with you! Or to continue with that thought pattern how manipulative do you really think she is? Could it be she doesn't want to let go? Or maybe she doesn't want you moving on? Maybe that remnant of contact is all she needs to know that she still has you!
Let me give you some advice from my situation. Set a boundary and set it in stone otherwise your situation may teater on to using others to continue the lines of communcation, something that is dangerous and destructive. LOOK AT MY SITUATION! If you allow the contact then she may be more active and unless properly controlled she may do what my ex-gf did to me for almost three years. Bizzare calls, unreasonable expectations for what?
Don't worry about the pride and the issue of betrayal that is part of the control that this person wants. Pride can be restored, betrayal is the hard feeling to get rid of but even that can be alleaviated through clear thought and counselling (if needed).
The friends thing could be one of two things the control of your relationship and the dictating of terms or it could be genuine but my question to you is: Why be friends with a perosn who can treat you like that?
It sounds like this person has issues dealing with attachment (and detachment), emotional instability, issues about self confidence and more importantly doesn't take an active interest in those around them. You are better off with out her!
You sound like a great person move on and allow yourself the personal as well as emotional space to find the right person for you. If you allow her to hang around it can only lead one place trouble. Good luck man, it isn't easy going through what your going through but remember there are people around you (including here) that will support whatever decision you make!
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Morning, Flinty,
I thought your last post was brilliant and will take you EXACTLY where you need to go.
One can observe the other's misdeeds accurately and at great length. And yes, a firm boundary (boulder) is a wise idea. Meanwhile, you wrote enough self-insight and ownership in those first 2 paras to change your life.
I think you guessed right. (Which doesn't make you wrong, btw!) Just makes you more aware.
This woman wasn't right for you and wasn't fair or sensitive to you and you've learned a lot from it. That's maybe the only place to park it. But it is valuable knowledge, of self, and of the character traits you are looking for.
The trick is to have new awarenesses about your own behaviors and tendencies in relating to women without beating yourself up for them. Maybe that's what this relationship was for. Somehow it was an opportunity for you to see these things in yourself...and that's wonderful. Because you can do/learn/change all sorts of things about yourself. And nobody else. It opens up new possibilities.
Sounds like you won't be doing any relationships on autopilot any more. If it's scary to think of challenging your own habits of creating distance, you're not alone. But there are lots of good books out there on "empathic listening" and communication. We're not trained very well for it. Women overcommunicate (don't look at me! :P) and men often underdo it. As we learn, though, at any age, those swings can balance out and bring more happiness and peace.
Kudos,
Hopalong
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Thanks Hoppie, your perspectives mean a lot to me. This board and all you people posting on it have been so great. I do not know what shape I would have been in if I had not found you when I did. Maybe I would have tried some private counseling - $2000 later, and who knows if I would have made the same progress. I doubt it .
BTW, had a really nice date tonight with J. She is easy to be with and so sweet. We went dancing ,had a cup of tea and some interesting talk, AND I am planning to do it all again with her Saturday night at the club.( maybe my ex will show up this time - ooh, gee won't that be fun?)
Flinty Clint.
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Clint,
I agree that you are gaining some new insights which will be invaluable for you in future relationships. Based on your last post, however, I would just send a word of caution. If you are seeing someone who you enjoy, don't mess it up by creating any sense that you are using her to make your ex feel jealous--if she should show up on Saturday night. We all get some satisfaction from showing our ex's how we have moved on and found happiness without them. However if that lady you're with gets any sense that you are doing that, she will be gone (if she's smart). Maybe you should try developing the relationship in places where your ex would not show up for now. That only creates a distraction that seriously gets in the way of getting to know the new person.
I have been out of my marriage for 2 1/2 years and in my new relationship for about 8 months. We live in the same community with both our ex's, but have yet to encounter either of them while together. I actually do not relish that encounter at all and know it will only create anxiety that will put a damper on an otherwise wonderful night with my bf. I no longer care a whit if my ex has a life without me or if I can prove to him that I have moved on--because I have. It only matters how I feel and he is no longer a part of the equation, other than the dealings we must have regarding our children.
Just my 2 cents.
Brigid
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Hey FC,
Another wee warning if you'll tolerate it. DONNNNNN'T sweep yourself fast into a new sexual relationship or a romantic one. Take some time. Really look to build FRIENDSHIP FIRST with women, with lots of listening and talking...balance that with dancing and good times too. (Some good women would be seriously delighted if you said to them you realized going too fast is careless, and you want to put care into getting to know them.)
So just keep things balanced...get plenty of non-drinking, non-club, non-nightlife time with women as friends (which would involve walking and talking and doing different things together--in DAYLIGHT, even!), before anyone becomes a lover. That, imNho, from a whole bunch of rescue-myself-from-painful-patterns reading more than from personal experience, is the healthiest way to go into the future...
Have fun too!
Hopalong
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I thank you for all your advice and I take your pont about 'rubbing my Ex's nose in it' .Maybe she doesn't give a snot anyways.. But I take you point about going slow. Jeez, ole' Flinty Clinty is kinda good at that, ma'am. I like this new lady (so far ) and your advice is solid enoug for me to take it aboard..
FC (in recovery)
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Hi folks -ole' Flinty Clinty here again. Well,Saturday night is coming up soon enough and I have invited my new 'companion' to come along with me to our regular Dinner Dance.She is so sweet.
( yes, I know what some of you are thinking).
The good news is that I have had no more emails from my Ex. I also saw a counselor twice and we worked thru some stuff about my feelings and the hurt of being 'dumped' > I do not feel a real loss of someone who was important to me because she really was not. It is about being deceived and used for someone's convenience and then being discarded . I guess that happens to all of us a few times in our lives. My T saiid that we all need to tune up our 'red flag' detectors and read the warnings signs accurately when they pop up and be aware that many times we feel 'energised' and 'alive' by being with 'risky' people. WOW! That rang my bell!. (So it is all about ADRENALIN?)
Gotta go press my shirt for the dance ..
Flinty Clint
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Boogie good, good buddy!
I think weekends are rough.
I admire you for getting out there and dancing!
Hops
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FC,
be aware that many times we feel 'energised' and 'alive' by being with 'risky' people. WOW!
I think if you read back over old posts, you would see this discussion many times over. It is usually a female phenomenon, but I guess you boys can get caught up in it too. It's that whole thing of being attracted to those "bad boys"/"bad girls" who we think we can rein in and tame (at least that is what most of us girls want to do with the bad boys--maybe you guys want the bad girls to stay "bad" :?). If we eventually get healthy, we realize that the last thing we want is someone who needs fixing or that is risky in any way. Those become the major red flags raising themselves up and saying "don't pick me because I will make your life a living HELL."
I'm glad you have gotten some therapy to help you work through these issues so you don't continue to make the same mistakes. I hope you and your new lady friend have fun tonight at the dinner dance and you can just relax and enjoy her company.
Brigid
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Had a realy great time at the Dinner Dance wit my new lady friend. My Ex was there too I think -someplace! Not really sure?
FC
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Not really sure and I hope not really bothered!
So glad you had fun.
Nice job, FC!
:)