Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tejaspear on January 10, 2006, 06:26:23 PM
-
One of the first things he told me when we met was that he would never let go of his ex-wife and holds her as a close friend.
I was worried at first. The "thou dost protest too much thing" after he brought it up several times. I talked to friends and they thought it was a good sign for a man to be good friends with his ex.
Then she called him during our first date -- knowing I was there. And on the second. And the third. Gave him messages for me, "Treat him good or you'll answer to me" (like a lighthearted rib), and then "Thank you for being good to him."
Over the next couple of months I learned how abusive she was to him throughout at least 9 of their 10 years together, and he has admitted many times that she is a narcissist. She verbally cut him down constantly, controlled him and cheated on him. Finally it was the cheating that caused him to divorce her.
Now he swears, and I believe him, that he will never have sex with her again. BUT he still feels GUILTY and RESPONSIBLE for her. This drives me NUTS.
I was learning to live with it. She only calls him a few times a week and they never go out to eat together or anything like that (because he doesn't want the man she lives with to think anything is going on). She claims to be "all for" me and him being together.
Then when I started to move in with him she called up crying -- twice in one hour -- and it came out that though he told me before that if I couldn't live with her in our lives he would give her up, he could no longer abide by that.
I asked, "What if her lover kicks her out? Are you going to let her stay in the guest house?" He says yes of course, like any friend in need. "How long?" "Two or three months."
I felt invaded. I feel as if she has let me know at every turn of the corner who is in control, and it's HER. Anytime she would want to put me in a bad mood, and destabilize my relationship with him, all she has to do is make a pest of herself on the phone, where I can listen to him baby-talk her, "Oh sweetie, things are going to be all right. You just keep your chin up and let me know how it's going. 10,000 other men will want you if this guy doesn't."
He claims I am being ridiculous, that he is just being spiritual by forgiving her for all the awful things she did to him, and after all she has done some nice things for him since their divorce was final a year ago.
I could not abide with this situation. When I tried to, my heart hurt so badly it was a physical pain.
Has anyone else here had to struggle with the ex of a narcissist? It is so sad, because he and I were so RIGHT for each other in SO many ways -- and for each of us it was the best loving relationship we ever had.
Why won't he let go of her for me? Will he ever? He is in total denial. I have told him it's over until and unless he contacts me with the news he has let go of her being in his life. He says losing me makes him feel ill and nauseated and hard for him to function.
Can anybody relate??? :(
-
Thanks so much for your analysis of the situation, Jac! A lot rings true!
As for your question why did I not pass on him when he mentioned the importance of his ex as a friend was because I didn't want to be unfair. I thought if it was a healthy relationship it would not hurt me.
I just hate this. It is so unfair. But then things are rarely fair in this world, are they? :(
-
:( Tejaspear,
You know I keep on asking myself the same questions as you are. Whats going on? What does N husband really mean? Does he really love me and he just needs my love and support to get him through this tough time? CAN MY LOVE CHANGE HIM? Always reading between the lines. but the answer is no......HE TOLD YOU ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW! HE WILL NEVER GIVE HER UP.....! If you can live being abused every day -stay with him- thats why he chose you! He can have you and abuse you with your permission and consent. Accept that= If you cannot accept it get out! but do not be confused........
KP
-
Thanks, KP...!
You are right. I know you are right. I'm making myself move on. Before I told him that I would not look for someone else for a while (letting him know he had time to change his mind and let her go), but I am realizing that will only keep me hanging onto hope where there is none.
I just emailed him and told him I'm moving on, gonna see other men. I'm ready for this to be HISTORY. Feeling the pain and disappointment all the time is getting very old. :(
-
Oh no, I don't think protecting myself from a potentially harmful relationship is unfair. What seems so unfair is how HAPPY we were together when "she" was not calling on the phone or the topic of conversation. I never experienced a relationship that was so wonderful in so many ways.
One thing I have learned is to ALWAYS trust my intuition. I know that sometimes someone having an ex for a friend is not a problem, but the fact is I saw a RED FLAG from the get go and chose to ingore it. Why? I think I just was being too needy -- wanting to have a relationship, period, and he was the one that most enticed me from the selection of men I had at the time.
I feel hurt by feeling that he loves me and at the same time not giving her up, which feels like an oxymoron. I feel let down by him. I feel angry at myself for letting him sweet talk me into believing he loved me even though he won't give her up.
I learned a lot about narcissists, and I learned I have come a long way (as a child of an N mother and NPD/BPD father). My main lovers in youth were N boys and men that were very abusive and I was a co-dependent. I'm reading Vaknin's book now. I think it will help me to understand better my own past and how to deal with narcissists I come across in the future (as they seem to be in no short supply).
In some ways my recent relationship was an interesting mirror for me -- a mirror of how I used to be with N mates. So devoted and loving and yet so lacking in self esteem and so addicted to someone who has no love to give.
But the most wonderful thing I learned is that I am not afraid to be alone. Being alone feels SO much better than being in a hurtful relationship there is simply no contest. I don't feel that I need a man -- even though I want one.
I feel empowered by going through this process as quickly as I did, and with less self-doubt than ever. I learned more of what I want and what I don't want (both psychologically and in regard to more mundane issues).
He was the "best" lover I ever had (not just sexually, but in many ways overall). My taste in men hasn't hit "perfect" yet, but it's getting better all the time!
-
Hey there
I don't know if you're going to pop back to the board, but I thought I'd post my take on this....
He is the victim of his ex. I agree he probably has issues with self esteem of his own, but he is still the victim.
Did you ever suggest the two of you going to couples counselling together?
I agree that he is over responsible and possibly still trying to "save" his ex, as well as looking for the approval.
It sounds to me like you have done a lot of work on yourself to get to where you are.... and if he agreed to go to counselling, then you may have a future.
If he doesn't agree, you know there is no hope because nothing will change.
Just a thought....
H&H xx
-
Thanks, H&H.
Actually, YES, I did ask him to go to counseling with me. He never agreed or disagreed to do it (as we didn't have the money for it now or anytime soon anyhow). He did come out and say that he does not consider himself to be in need of therapy and was insulted when I implied he might.
I have a blog, which is usually about my raw food diet but sometimes about other things, and today I wrote about some of my past with narcissists and a little about this most recent relationship, if anyone cares to read it:
http://curezone.com/blogs/f.asp?f=67&t=58990
or
<http://curezone.com/blogs/f.asp?f=67&t=58990>
I woke up this morning that all I need is a few days of thinking about OTHER things than Bill and his ex and I will be something close to feeling "on top of the world." Thanks to all for your caring, thoughtful and helpful responses!!
Michele
-
Hi tejaspear,
I agree with the wonderful, clear advice you have gotten so far. Except about counseling with him - I think he ought to be in your past, not your future. Sorry H&H, I don't feel forgiving!
Maybe you took on the challenge of competing with his ex. You thought that since the relationship was ringing your bell, that he ought to feel so strongly that he could finally wean off of her. You were ready to take a committing step - moving in. Then is became clear that she might also move in, at any time. She won.
This is all a game. It's better to fold now than to lose your shirt. Next time, I bet you won't even sit down!
Look after yourself and I'm sorry for the hurt you have felt. It's better to understand it than not.
Plucky
-
Thank you Plucky!!!!!!!!! I really needed to hear that!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :)
-
I also want to thank you, Jac, for pointing out that no matter what, a guy saying he's keeping his ex no matter what is a hot potato.
I have thought about this a lot, and even if it WERE a "healthy" relationship of a guy and his ex, he should be willing to let go of her if he wants me to be the new woman in his life. It is not asking too much. If they need and want each other so much they should just stay together. ;)
Thanks again to all who have posted. I definitely went through emotional ups and downs about this today. My resolve stayed the same, but am fighting the blues. My main way to fight the blues is to use a sort of mental behavior modification on myself. (For instance if I notice I am thinking about him and her constantly then to insert the thoughts of others in my life that are near and dear to me and think and feel about THEM instead. That helps a lot, as I spend SO much time with him the month of December...
Best wishes to you all and thanks again!
-
Hiya Tej
Sorry... I apologise... I do try to look for the best and a happy ever after :lol: ... but like you said you asked the question and didn't get a response. In my book, no concrete yes answer equals a no with this kind of thing. While I think he's a victim, he's still a victim that has to do something about his behaviour, about his issues.
I have thought about this a lot, and even if it WERE a "healthy" relationship of a guy and his ex, he should be willing to let go of her if he wants me to be the new woman in his life. It is not asking too much.
I feel this is spot on Tej... not only that he would be willing to let go of her... you DESERVE to be in first place, you deserve to be at the front and any self respecting guy can give you that.
Take care
H&H xx
-
Thanks, H&H!!! I really appreciate your comments!!
-
Am I a villain in this scenario? I am a simple man. I am a loving man. I love you, Tejaspear. Yes, I love the ex. I love many others, as well. There is no vice in friendship.
Where would this end? If I were to yield to this insecurity, who would I need to sacrifice next? Where would it end? Or, would it ever end? Would I need to accept you as my one and only friend in life?
Sweet and precious woman, I know that there is no chance that we can ever go anywhere together, now. It hurts me a lot, as you know. As totally beautiful as our relationship has been, it had a cancer. Unbridled, malignant fear has destroyed the gorgeous body of love that could have been, indeed, that should have been. There are no solutions. Fear seeks to destroy. I regret that fear has won.
I wish you a long and prosperous life, full of love. I will always think of you and those glorious days and nights we shared, feeling like two teens finding love for the first time. That's really what it felt like, honey.
Now y'all psuedopsychologists and midnight-therapists knock yourself out. Blast away! I am out of here and I ain't comin' back no mo'. I have to work on recovering emotionally from the most intense love of my life.
-=RedHawk
-
Well, there he was (redhawk above). I invited him to come share his side of the story. What he said here has pretty much been his schpeel all along.
-
It is my hope for him that this has not all been for naught, and that in time, whether it be months or years, the feedback I have given him will help him to see what he needs to see in order to become a free man one day. If he ever does, I hope he will let me know, because I would be so happy for him.
-
Brother RedHawk,
Observe, if you will, the spontaneous and pure freedom of the perfect natural kingdom.
How the mighty bison run at each other and crash their heads together.
How the wonderful walrus heave onto the rocks and howl their love.
Observe how some species of pure-hearted animals regularly slash and bite and kick and tear each other to bits because quite a few of them don't want to share their mates.
There is a primacy to having a mate. An adult human animal, who wants a relationship that will become the most sacred fire that warms every other part of his life, will understand and respect his mate's need to not be threatened. (If she's of a monogamous species, that is.)
The gorgeous body of love can die from neglect, from a primal need being dismissed as "insecurity."
Go have a nice time, soar away on fluffy clouds.... You're not a monogamous animal. Your heart isn't giving Tejaspear primacy, and she is being true to her gorgeous desire for a commitment that goes beyond mating.
Good luck...glad you had a nice romance.
I truly don't mean this spitefully, but from all my 55 years I feel a prediction coming on:
One day you wil mature and look back and your heart will break all over again, that you couldn't be man enough to give her the security that you could have chosen to give.
"Forsaking all others" means just what it says.
And I've learned that from some wise ones on this board, among other places.
Best of luck,
Hopalong
-
Thank you for your beautiful post, Hopalong. I guess he does know the meaning of "forsaking all others" in that he has forsaken me, (and last year his best friend), for her. He doesn't like to admit to himself he is still emotionally married to her since she was unfaithful and he can never trust her sexually again. They don't have much time together in person, and no sex, but shoot, that's how it was for the last years they lived together as well.
Thank you all so much for supporting me in what has been a heart-wrenching, but the only healthy, choice. I could have stayed with him, but it would have destroyed me. This I know without a doubt.
Hugs,
TP
-
Where would this end? If I were to yield to this insecurity, who would I need to sacrifice next? Where would it end? Or, would it ever end? Would I need to accept you as my one and only friend in life?
-=RedHawk
Redhawk.... I hope you do come back to see what is posted as I feel a lot of people would have something to say to you.
Where would this end? You tell me.... where do you think it will end?
Insecurity and who to sacrifice next? What's your insecurity that makes you go back? What's your insecurity that means you can't move on to another fulfilling relationship?
Would you need to accept one and only friend in life? No.... however you need to accept one and only "girl"friend/partner in life... and from the sounds of things, you are emotionally tied to two. (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Personally RedHawk, My opinion is that I don't feel Tej is threatened by your ex... Maybe you should imagine how you would feel if the roles were reversed? How you would feel if it was Tej and her ex having the same relationship you do with your ex? I'm guessing that your first response to this will be, Oh, I would be fine with it... she can have whatever friends she wants, it wouldn't be a problem.... however maybe you can really think about how you would feel if the roles were reversed.
H&H
-
You are right that I am not an insecure person in that way, H&H. And I wonder why he isn't asking instead, "I have given up my best friend for Ves. Now I have given up the love of my life for Ves. How many more will I have to give up -- until I have no one but Ves?"
-
hey, Tejaspear, just checking in with the board after a while away....it's sometimes cool to come in at the end of a thread... especially now, that this "man" in question chimed in.
Eveyone here has given you good advice, that comes from lots of shared experience,
so I can't really add anything profound that hasn't already been said.
You deserve more. Anyone does. Yes, the attachment to his ex is weird, and yes, she controls his life (and for a while, yours too).
One thing struck me, and that is that you may want to wait a bit to figure some things out before you get involved in another relationship. I speak from experience when I say that really becoming consious about WHY we made the choices we do is extremely important. I realized that when I married my second narcissistic man rather quickly after divorcing the first.
Anyway, though, it seems you sense this, when you talk about the importance of feeling good alone. Right on.
The other thing is: and I'm sorry if this sounds disrespectful, but after that swan song from redwing, I'd think you would be thanking the ground you walk on that you are rid of him. OY! What a bunch of malarky. Honestly, I was laughing a bit. More crap to make him feel "It's not me, it's her". Okay, whatever. Let him go, let the hurt go, (after screaming it out of course...or whatever you do). You're going to be just fine!!!!
-
Hiya Tej- I'm not meaning to judge but my gut reaction to Hawk's message is...wow...that is one angry dude. There is alot of anger and condescension in those honeyed words. His message is almost word for word like one my ex N left me a few months ago- I'm not labelling him just saying it is frighteningly familiar- even the intensity of language- and seeming sweetness. It made me feel uncomfortable reading that message. You are better off and healthier on your own. Moira
-
Thanks, Moira.
You are right of course. I never said anything about it to anyone before, even Red Hawk, but I can see how some of his N ex's "ways" have rubbed off on him. But of course that is only natural. I believe we all take on some of the characteristics of those we cherish and spend the most time with.
-
Hi again T.- I don't know about N by osmosis! That missive could easily- all too easily- have been penned with pride by a..... N. I really don't;t like the labelling thing too much but, if the shoe fits. That message was full of anger- maybe rage would be a more appropriate word?-, so disrespectful, sarcastic and patronizing. Abuse- any way you slice it. Besides, what healthy, well adjusted man is going to jump into a forum to see what other total strangers think or to see what the ex is saying about ...HIM!!!!...Hmmm....HIM....the operative word, n'est ce pas?! It all comes back to ...." it's all about...ME"!!!! Hee hee! Moira
-
Oh, well I sent him the link and invited him to look. Re the rage and anger, that could be because I told him I'm going to actively look for another now -- and also just natural defensiveness when he sees that he is not getting support for his contentions in this thread. Really he has not been angry toward me much at all -- ever.
I actually prefer to see him get angry over too much of the other I have seen in him -- which is acting out helplessless, cowardice, whimpering, etc. I want him to stand up for himself -- even if it's against me.
But it is clear that he is not anywhere ready to let go of her, and I have to deal with my own heartbreak in this. It is such a waste in the short-run. I can only hope that in the long-run he and I both will have been blessed by the time we have shared.
One thing I think he has not considered is what he is going to do when she betrays him again -- and judging from what I have been learning about narcissists in Vaknin's book, it is only a matter of time before she does something to fulfill her fantasy of him abandoning her again. When she betrays him again he will feel such a fool for trusting her as a friend and giving up me and others for her. I just hope he will not berate himself too much about it and just HEAL, goddammit...!!!!!!!!
Anyway, he's not letting go of her, and that means I have to let go of him. I'm doing that very actively, and that pisses him off I think. He thinks I'm being unreasonable not to let him keep me and her both. *I* am the bad guy, and she is totally innocent as is he. That's how he sees it. The day she betrays him again, that day he will maybe see straight. It's all rather tragic and sad.
At least I have a STRONG new year's resolution: NO MORE MEN THAT TELL ME THEY ARE KEEPING THEIR EXES...!!!!!!!!!!!
-
Now I am going through RAGE about this. He BETRAYED me, dammit......!!!!!!!! He promised me he would let go of her in his life if I ever needed that. He promised that to me before we started living together a month ago. But then when I asked him to do it he RENIGGED...!!! All that month I had a FALSE sense of security with him.
I've been sending him some very enraged emails today. Feels good (if you can feel good during anything like this). I think I really needed to let it out.
-
You can't be saintly 24/7, Teja.
It is normal to be angry when you're hurt.
Probably does no good to aim it at him though.
Do you have any other person, like a T, you can go to for a good talk regularly until you're past the first grieving?
People do disappoint each other. People do break promises. People sometimes just can't give us what we want them to.
Hard as hell to face when it's someone you had big dreams about.
Hold onto yourself. You can't hold onto him, just have to let the grief do its work and heal you.
Hang on,
Hopalong
-
hi Tej,
sometimes it's good to vent. As long as you don't get too attached to your anger and the good feeling venting brings. Don't forget the goal is letting go - not setting him straight or anything like that. Above all, be long gone before she betrays him again and the shyte hits the fan. You don't want to be there to pick up the pieces. Do you? You're not hoping for it, are you? Because we know, in our heart of hearts, that this event would not change anything at all about you and him. Nothing.
Plucky
-
Tejaspear,
I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I had a somewhat similar experience with an ex-boyfriend of mine. In my particular situation, I was not threatened at all by his ex-wife. What I was concerned about and what bothered me about it, was his choosing her over me. He didn't in the end, but he didn't choose me either. I was just a rebound relationship for him, although it seemed like he was the love of MY life. As far as I could figure out what happened, he was a passive-aggressive narcissist. He was in search of some "ideal love", but that actually involved his partner putting up with any abuse he gave her without complaint.
This guy's attitude is so similar to my ex's. He loved feeling needed--the need to rescue. I think it made him feel more like a man to be needed by a woman. He felt like a bigger person by imagining himself full of so much love that he can carry on a relationship with 2 women at once. It's not love, though. It's selfishness and fear. He can believe himself to be so benevolent, but it doesn't make it true. I really don't want to hurt your feelings, but this might help make things clear for you. He could be possibly using the relationship with you to prove to his ex-wife how "wonderful" and "desirable" he is, and how big of a mistake she made to cheat on him.
I know it's so hard to let go, and so hard to believe this, but this guy is definately not the love of your life. The love of your life would choose you above all others. The love of your life would never put you second to anyone.
Kudos to you for being strong enough to leave him. (I wasn't that strong.) Better sooner than later--I know. Do yourself a favor by not contacting him any more. Be truly done with him.
-
Thanks y'all.
Yes, the rage has felt healthy. Without it, I fear I would dissolve into self-doubt.
I can't see a T anytime soon, but I feel I'll be all right as long as I can come out of this in one piece and believing in myself. It feels good to be able to say I don't DESERVE to be treated like that, and feel it and mean it. It feels good to feel self worth. My anger at him is like the parent in me raging in protection of my inner child.
It's funny how it really is a process. One day I will feel pretty darn good and the next like road kill, but mostly I feel I know I am doing pretty well. I feel like I am getting it out of my system, and the rage is/was an important part of that. (Not sure if I'm done with the rage yet, but I think it has already peaked.) Now I am feeling ready for the calm and silence of acceptance much more.
Very interesting thing you said, Plucky! About being around when she betrays him again. It never occurred to me much that things might happen that way. It's all too complicated to think about somehow. I just feel like chances are that by the time he might ever "come around" I will already be in a committed relationship with someone else. (I hope so anyhow! I have spent most of my adult life alone and would really like to have a partner.)
Thanks so much for all your comments. It helps so much to have people to vent to that even have a clue of what I'm dealing with. ;)
Hugs,
TP
-
insomniac,
Thank you so much for your sharing and insights!!!!!!!! It is really helping me even as I read it, and rings so true.
I remember times he would say, "Fuck you, [her name]. Someone else DOES want me." He explained that she always used to tell him, "No one else would have you."
And yes, yes, yes to all the other things you said. Thank you so much. It really does help!!!!!!!
Hugs!
TP
-
insomniac,
Thank you so much for your sharing and insights!!!!!!!! It is really helping me even as I read it, and rings so true.
I remember times he would say, "Fuck you, [her name]. Someone else DOES want me." He explained that she always used to tell him, "No one else would have you."
And yes, yes, yes to all the other things you said. Thank you so much. It really does help!!!!!!!
Hugs!
TP
You're very welcome. I'm so glad I could help in some way.
Hang in there! ((((hugs))))
-
(Big Smiles!!!!!!!!)
-
tejaspear,
I've been away for awhile and am coming in late here, but couldn't help but make a few comments. Welcome, by the way.
I agree with the great advice the others have given and I'm sure that you will be better off without this man in your life. I had an n father and married and divorced 2 n men, so I have been there and done that, too.
IMO, any man who would choose to remain close friends with a woman who had abused him for 9 years, has some very serious issues and needs some intense therapy. There is probably something in his childhood that has allowed this to happen and he will never be healthy or available for a healthy relationship until he addresses that.
Those of us who have children with our exn spouses, must maintain a relationship with them at some level, at least while they are still dependant children. We may even try to keep it somewhat friendly for the sake of the children if the n spouse will allow it, but we sure don't want to be friends with them or seek their approval of future mates. My ex wouldn't know a healthy relationship if it bit him in the ass. He's still waiting for the slut he left me for to leave her husband 2 1/2 years later, so his opinion of my dating choices means nothing.
It sounds like you have spent a lot of time learning about yourself and how your FOO has affected your choices in men. I'm amazed that you ignored that big red flag your bf sent up regarding his ex. Since you did not mention that they share a child or children, I assume that is not the case, so his need to have any relationship with her is absurd.
You have every right to be angry that he did not follow through on the promises he made. I would hope that you can stop contact with him altogether as even sending angry e-mails is a sign that you are not ready to give up. Take some time to consider a new relationship. At this point, you may just be using it as a way to get back at him, rather than an opportunity to find a healthy relationship. As my therapist told me many times, you cannot find a healthy partner until you are healthy yourself. I spent 2 years getting healthy after my ex left and am now in a wonderful relationship. I'm really glad I took that time.
Blessings,
Brigid
-
Thanks for your comprehensive thoughts, Brigid. Very wise!
Yes, you are right that he has no children with this ex, and his wanting to keep her close is absurd.
Really I do not expect to enter another relationship anytime soon. My even making the motions of looking for another was -- much more than anything else -- a way to "make it real" that it is OVER between me and him. I know I need to work on ME much more than find another relationship.
I agree too that even sending angry emails is still too much connecting with him, and sent my last yesterday, letting him know I would appreciate not hearing from him anymore (except for him to mail me back my cell phone) and that he is no longer a part of my life.
I look at the whole situation now and see so many more signs than just the ex-wife. He has been living in a very unhealthy mode for years now, including years without working, and trashing his home. Trash everywhere. He said that for so long he "just didn't care." I was much more in rescue mode than I realized. I guess I felt like the two of us together could equal healthy. Didn't work that way, though I did clean up a lot of trash and even motivated him to do so as well.
I realize that I expect too little of a man, as if I am almost apologetic. Oh, you can't buy me dinner? That's fine. Oh, you need me to buy your dinner? Okay. Oh, you can't pay the insurance on your car? Okay, you can use my car. When I can afford it I'll pay the insurance for you so you can get a job without having to walk 12 miles a day to work. And on like that... He told me that HE wanted to be the one to pay the rent and bills, but the actuality if what was happening was the opposite. I saw that happen to a friend once. Didn't realize it would happen to me.
I realize, today more than yesterday, that he did me a big favor by choosing her over me. His bad habits of many years could have pulled me down rather than me raising him up out of it.
I am looking forward to when this experience is just a bit further in the past. I know it will make for a fascinating character study -- of myself...!
I have a lot of work to do on my own life. Immediate obvious things are to get repaired better financially, help support my son (who has gone off to college) with what I can, clean clutter out of my home, do some inner (body) cleansing, get back to my daily exercise routine, and basically just involve myself with and be thankful for what I DO have already -- a safe home in a good neighborhood, a great boss, dear and good longtime friends, a wonderful son, so many things really.
And thanks for the validation once again that his wanting to stay close to someone that abused him for 9 years is absurd. It is certainly both a risky and stupid thing to do in my view, but of course he has repeated to me over and over and over and over how she's been really trying to be a good friend and his connection with her is just this really positive and spiritual thing. It's just really refreshing to have someone give the validation even though it is so obvious.
In my last letter to him I address this thing about how he has forgiven her and how it's such a positive and spiritual and healthy thing:
"My middle name is Forgiveness, because my stepmother felt I earned it. I learned more about Forgiveness since then. I learned that I can forgive just about anything really -- and can even forgive and forget -- except for one thing: I do not trust that person again if that person shows no real remorse or gives no heartfelt and sincere apology. To trust a person such as that, even after forgiveness, is nothing but stupidity. And to hold them close to the bosom after such a thing is no more than self-destruction. There is such a thing as Martyrs for worthy causes, and then there are martyrs who are simply martyrs by occupation (except they get no dividends other than a delusional sense of self as being saintly). Don't tell me about forgiveness."
Hugs,
TP
-
Tejaspear
I'm glad that you have decided to move on. It's obvious that this guy is having an emotional affair with his XN...in my opinion they may as well be having sex.
I know it's hurtful and disappointing but know you are doing what is in the best interests for YOU!
Take care.
Mia
-
Thanks, Mia.
Yes, definitely! What was really the most bizarre was when I realized that their relationship has not changed from what it was when they were married...! Only the physical setting is different. Before she ignored him while he sat in the same room with her, or not, year after year. Now she ignores him from 45 miles away, but sees him for a few minutes once a week. (They found an excuse to see one another by, after a year of her having the dogs to herself, now sharing "joint custody" of two chihuahuas. It ensures that they see one another regularly.) They didn't have sex for the last 3 years of their marriage, and continue not to have sex now. He's all about caring about her, and she's all about the stuff N's are so good about being about.
Another red flag I should have seen but did not: was that he said to me several times early in the relationship that he had not meant to find someone he cared about as much as he cared about me, and that he would be comfortable finding a woman that he did not care about. I took it as a poetic way of him telling me he cared about me rather than saying to myself, "This man has a very cynical view of what he wants in a relationship. I don't belong here!"
Soon I think I will have to write down all the red flags as they come to me. There are so many that it's really almost comical. I have come out of this relationship having made dozens of mistakes I never even thought about. Now I feel empowered that I will not make those mistakes again.
Hugs,
TP
-
Hi Teja,
One of the best books I've ever read on how to recognize (more to the point, how to BEGIN) a healthy relationship is "A Fine Romance" by Judith Sills, PhD.
I think her work is a cut way above most pop-pschology books, and I believe reading it right now, while you're internalizing the things you've learned from this relationship....might be powerfully helpful to you.
If you read it I'd love to know what you think.
You're doing great. The shock and anger are just fine...and hindsight is just fine too. It's still sight, and it eventually will turn into foresight.
Hopalong
-
Thanks, Hopalong. I'll check out that book for sure! ;)
-
I just want to thank you all again for being here for me through this. I had left things with Red Hawk open-ended, in that I told him several times that if he ever let go of her to look me up. But today I realized that was not good for me -- that it was still one thread of me hanging on to something that is only going to hurt longer the longer I hold out any hope.
What really "got" me today was watching that movie with Sean Penn, Robin Wright and John Travolta where Sean and Robin are in an obsessive-compulsive relationship. Robin divorces him while he (Sean) is in a mental hospital and gets married and has 2 kids with her new husband, and then when Sean finally gets out of the mental hospital 10 years later he comes to get her, and there was no talking sense into either one of them. She abandoned her 3 kids to run off with Sean even though Travolta had been a good husband to her. I saw that and I just couldn't help but compare the relationship of Red Hawk and his N ex. His whole world has revolved around her in one way or the other for the past 11 years.
So anyhow, I sent him an email telling him that I don't want to keep the invitation open and that I really don't trust him anymore. Why should I? I don't him I don't want to hear from him again. Ever. He wrote back that he was tired of waiting for me to get over my "sickness" and "insecurity" and is going to block my emails now. Which is good, because it's hard for me not to express myself when I think of things I want to say. Now if I should weaken and write to him, he won't get the email. And I can't even write to him snail mail. He has such a dysfunctional life since his split-up with her that he doesn't even have a mailing address even though he has an address. Just doesn't bother to put a mailbox out front.
Well, anyhow, it was pretty validating to me that I made the right decision when he called me sick and insecure. Just underlined for me that he is in blanket and intense and total denial about his "thing" with her and that there would never have been hope for me and him.
I'm not looking to meet anyone else, not for a while. I put up a personals ad for a while, but that was mainly just to "make it real" that it was over between me and Red Hawk. A way to try to keep from softening. He was always forthcoming with declarations of love and telling me I was the best he ever had, but actions speak louder than words and that's the bottom line I know I must listen to.
There has been a silver lining to all this in an unexpected way. That is that I got caught up with the kind of feeling that, "If he won't give up that witch-from-hell for me, what does that say about me?" I feel I have learned more than ever that it says NOTHING about me; it's just about him and her. (It says something about me that I even got involved after the red flags, but that's another topic.) Anyhow, I am feeling like I can finally go back to pursuing film acting again. The rejections had really gotten to me the past few years, and there were a couple I took really hard, especially when one (possibly N) casting director was particularly unkind to me for no good reason whatsoever (not even allowing me to audition for a part and just doing it in a particularly nasty manner). I had lost heart, even though I really love the pursuit of acting. Now for the first time in almost 2 years I'm planning on getting new headshots and I'm up for the inevitable rejections again. Because I know it's not about me. Some day, if I hang around long enough, I'll get picked for something. And even when I'm not picked I'll enjoy the pursuit of something I love to do. (My biggest dream is to do comedy as I love to make people laugh!)
Sorry for going on and on. Thanks. Really. ;)
TP
-
Peace, closure and a moment of true letting go.
I'm glad, Teja.
I recognize the compulsive edge, and why you'd be relieved he's blocked your email.
I've been there, but I did not have as positive an attitude as you. It was hard to let go.
Sometimes, though, we push someone just enough that the mask slips, and seeing what's really there helps us let go.
When someone professes "perfect, spiritual" love and refuses to allow any more prosaic terms for it, it's likely to be a movie in their head...and not one with a happy ending.
The real happy ending is you loving yourself and moving forward.
Let the credits roll!
Hopalong
-
New developments with Red Hawk. After we said our "last" angry goodbyes and got out the anger, the love came through again. We communicated more.
In a nutshell, what has happened is that he has started distancing himself more from his N ex and told me some concrete things which show that, and let me know his intention of going further in that direction. We just don't know how long it will take before it will be to a degree that I can be totally comfortable with.
I also was I think finally able to convey to him where I was coming from in a clearer way, giving the example of "What if I had an ex-husband that was a wife-beater and he beat me for 8 years and never apologized for it and to this day says it was all my fault and I'm telling you how I am so glad I have forgiven him and he's really a good person without a mean bone in his body and I feel guilty toward him and responsible, and I would really like Red Hawk to be friends with him too and we could all do things together sometimes, and he called me up one day nearly in tears because his current lover might kick him out and you asked me if I was going to let him stay at my place and I said 'of course' and 'just a few months' and 'You don't have anything to worry about. I love you, Red Hawk. He knows I will never be his lover again. I have told you that so many times', etc."
I explained that if I had an ex that had abused me and hurt me so much and never even apologized about it that I would HOPE that Red Hawk would take a dim view of that man and feel protective of me in regard to him and have thoughts like, "You're damn right he won't hit you again" and that Red Hawk would not think of my ex-wife-beater husband as being a 'loving and spiritual' person, never mind that he is a healer by profession.
I acknowledged to Red Hawk that I understand that even in a "normal" divorce it takes time to release feelings of guilty and responsibility toward the ex-mate, and that he has not really had all that much time, (just a year or year and a half really), and that I am willing to be patient and let nature takes its course with that as long as I can see that this is the direction in which it continues and as long as I continue to understand that Red Hawk's intention is to continue that distancing process.
It's like Jac said in a post on another thread, that the only way out of it is THROUGH it. I understand that Red Hawk is probably also still going through the learning and un-learning process of how he responds to her. She had trained him to respond a certain way for so long, and in many ways he has broken those chains. It's just that he is not finished yet, and it's not something that can be hurried as fast as I would like.
Before this all came to a head I was moving in with Red Hawk, and in fact he and I had been living together for a month at my place, (which is in another town), before I was starting to move in with him. I have come to realize that I will not be ready to move in with him until these issues with the ex-wife have been resolved to a degree that I could feel that our home together would be just that -- OUR home and not a place she still can lay some claim to.
So, Red Hawk and I are now resuming our relationship as lovers, but staying in our respective towns and will just see one another pretty much on weekends, (and this weekend will be the first time we've seen each other in nearly a month!)
I'm feeling good about this. He has also accepted my boundaries in that I don't want to get messages from her (other than utilitarian if ever necessary or yes, no, thank you) and that if he ever finds himself talking to her on the phone in my presence he will be sensitive to the fact that any lovey-dovey kind of talk with her makes me uncomfortable and will can it. This may not sound like much, but believe me, we've come a long way..!!!
Meanwhile I shall continue my independent lifestyle and not be "merging" my life with his other than making plans to see one another when we can, and continue in the pursuits I would be pursuing whether we were together or not (except that I won't be seeing any other men).
TP
-
Yes, even reading that I am feeling comfortable with my decision. I appreciate your support and your advice. Thank you. ;) I don't feel I am teaching him to be different. I feel I am giving him time to heal. I think also that he was so used to, when dealing with her, "everything being all about her" and fell into that without even realizing it. I feel he is comfortable realizing that it is not just about her anymore. It's about me too. We'll see how it goes. For now, I feel very much at peace and content.
TP
-
Glad you're feeling good, Teja, but I do echo every syllable Jac posted for you.
I'm wondering (and I know, if you don't want rain or your parade you can ignore)...if your current euphoria is about fusion?
Having faced separation from someone unready to commit, and having a hard time holding to your separateness -- hence you kept emailing him until you revived the connection -- (I am quoting from 40 volumes of the diary of my own life, here--not judging)...I wonder if your bliss right now is about having restored sex, which fuels that boundary-blurring feeling of "belonging" with someone?
I think his ambivalence may lie deeper than you think. He's not purely this woman's victim. All along, he has willingly participated in that running intimate dialogue with her, that did not allow a true fidelity with you. Your descriptions of his "progress" sound like the transient thrill of rationalization. (What I used to do was explain and expalin adn explain andn analyse--as you've seen me do on my other threads about NMom and an Nfriend...not realizing that healthy relationships develop without such basic struggles, when values are ALREADY aligned...)
I think it's like Norwood says. IMHO, he was not confused or lost or unwittingly staying ambivalent and stoking two intimate fires at once. This is really his core self. I'm not judging him either. I just think, as I said to him way back, that he's not ready for a committed monogamous relationship.
Sexual monogamy is one thing, fully flowering commitment (out of joy, not because someone else has explained to you why it's a better path) to one woman...is another.
I really really don't think he's there. And I think you would be very wise to just be friends rather than lovers while he does whatever he's going to do. And dating other men in a light, easy (not THAT kind of easy :lol:) way...could be very good for you to help you keep some healthy detachment when you deal with Redhawk.
I'm honing in on you (LOADS of projection) because I detect "lover fusion" fantasies.
I wrecked decades of my life confusing fusion for love. And sex always, always, distorted my ability to cooly assess whether someone was an appopriate mate for me. Hindsight.
Hope I'm totally off base and wouldn't be hurt at all if you said so, but just in CASE there's any bells ringing, hope they might be helpful....
Hugs
Hops
-
Hi Hops,
"if your current euphoria is about fusion?"
I guess I need to express myself better. I am not euphoric. I am looking at checking out this relationship for a year, maybe longer, before being able to tell if it will work out. On top of that I am living entirely independently of him, which makes him a much, much smaller part of my daily life than what he was before. It is really taking 3 steps back yet remaining to let things culminate to whatever will happen. Also a question for you: I know what euphoria means, but not sure what you mean by fusion?
About him not being ready to commit, that's not exactly the case. He would be ready for me to move in with him yesterday and think of me as his wife. I'm the one who is not ready to commit and he is the one who I feel is not totally freed from his past enough to be capable of more than a boyfriend with serious intentions.
Again, I feel no bliss right now. I feel good in the sense of "rightness," but I am far from bliss. We're not there yet, and for all I know will never be. I just know that I am willing to let time take its course and see what transpires. I don't feel in a hurry to "be with" a man. I am feeling good about maintaining a very independent identity with personal goals that have nothing to do with him (such as beginning to aspire to do film acting again). I have let him know that this is my feeling NOW -- this feeling of no hurry and much patience but that I cannot promise how long that feeling will last. I would like to think it could last for a year or more. I feel that would give time a fair chance to the dynamics of his healing. But he knows and I know that it is at this point no more than an intention and hope that I will stay so patient. If I lose that patience I will have to give up on us. I know that. He knows that. So, no, it's not a blissful feeling with all this as a very effective damper.
Things he has done to distance her more: Before he and her were exchanging their dogs (a joint custody type deal) every weekend. When they do that they see one another for a matter of a few minutes. Now it is once a month. He was talking to her on the phone nearly every day. Now it is twice a week or less. The last time he talked to her he told her, (to her shock), that he was glad she had moved out. I see this as real, not imaginary, progress. But I also know that it may not be permanant. Hence my lack of euphoria. It ain't over until the fat lady sings, and the fat lady may not sing for a very long time. And I may choose to leave the concert if I get tired of waiting.
On the other hand, I have to admit I feel this is a two-edged sword where that is the downside. The upside is that I *will* remain autonomous with a man I am serious about for many months or a year or more before making the big step of moving in together. I have never been that rational in my past. I always fell right into living with the guy within weeks or months, and that was always a mistake. I could always look back later and see all the things I wished I would have had to deal with BEFORE moving in with him or marrying him. With Bill I am going to finally find out what it feels like NOT to rush too fast into cohabitating. I want to experience that. I want to feel that sense of independence even while sharing love with a man. But I do NOT feel that he is "my man" and never will until and unless this thing truly clears up in re the ex N wife. Right now I am savoring my sense of independence while being "involved."
He also has a history of staying somewhat attached to a previous lover after getting married -- both marriages. In both cases he continued to see the previous lover once in a while until the attachment fell off the branch. To him, this is normal. To me, I've always been the opposite. I never wanted to start a new involvement before the old branch had already fallen. I do not like his "way" in re this, but at the same time it has worked for him in the past and I am not so sure that I should judge it harshly.
I really appeciate your outpourings, Hops. I don't know. I have a past that was somewhat sexually promiscuous. Sex is an important expression to me, but it does not carry the same "end all" kind of feeling for me that it does for many others. In fact, I am only the third person Red Hawk has had sex with in his life -- his first being his first wife and his second being his second wife. For him, having sex is a much bigger thing psychologically than it is for me. I'm not saying it is not meaningful to me. It is. It's important to me to be with a man who is sexual, but the sexual experience is really just one spice in the pot and the other ingredients carry weights every bit as, and more, important than the sex. The only reason I do not choose to be celibate with him -- though he is totally willing to do that if I wanted it -- is because I personally am not comfortable with foregoing sex. It would feel like an artificial restraint to me, inorganic. I don't know how to explain that better. But actually he made it very, very clear to me that he would not complain if I did not want to have sex with him for a long time.
Gosh, it feels terribly exposing to talk about my sex life on the net. Thank goodness we are at least using nicknames...! ;)
I guess the main thing I can tell you about why I am feeling good (not elated) about this is because I am not getting red flags or alarms -- for myself -- in this current transition. I am not feeling alarmed at all, and if something should happen in the future that would make me uncomfortable, (such as her calling and something from that bothering me), then I know I'll just get up and say, "I'm not comfortable with this. I'm going," and I'll leave. And if and when that happens, it may be over, at least sexually. It may be that I will find that we really can't be lovers at all until and unless he finishes fighting his demons with her. I know this could happen, but I don't know it *will* happen. I'm willing to take the chance that it might happen, and live with the consequences.
I hope I don't sound like a heartless person to say this, but I can't say he ever really broke my heart. I have always felt secure in his love. It has only been the malignant tumor of his bond(age) with her which, though much less than before, still has its vestiges. I think this is why I never cried very much when we broke up or during all the angst. Through it all I have always known he really does love me. And if it culminates in him truly being incapable of continuing through the process of lettting go of her and his sense of guilt toward her while loving me, then I don't think I will ever truly feel it as him not loving me; rather, I will feel it as him being chained via the psychological weaknesses he inherited from his childhood and past. But he is a very strong-willed person and he has indeed improved in many ways. I see him as having a very real chance of freeing himself, and for now I'm okay with being around and seeing him do it.
No, it is not bliss or elation or even happiness, but I do feel a sense of much warmth and peace and current contentment with just being "in the now."
Hugs,
TP
-
Jac,
I really got a lot out of your quote from Robin Norwood's book. I wish I had read that 25 years ago before I married my second husband. I probably would have ignored it at the time, but now it resonates so strongly and I hope I will never again be involved with someone who I want and think I can change and tweek to meet my expectations.
With age comes wisdom (at least I hope so) and that combined with many hours of therapy has hopefully taught me to truly believe the "red flags" and that they have meaning and predictability.
TP, I hope you will pay attention to and believe the red flags your bf is raising. There is a reason you ignored them before and they have not gone away. I hope you will give this some serious consideration.
Brigid
-
Yes, but what you are saying, Brigid, is not to trust myself because I am feeling okay with this where we are with it now. When I am not okay with it I will feel it. I am not numb. And I am not asking him to change. There is a difference between expecting someone to change and giving them time to heal. Even a "normal" divorce makes a "normal" man need 2 full years of healing after the divorce (according to psychologists). He has not had his 2 years yet.
But anyhow, y'all's warnings and cautions are noted and acknowledged, even appreciated.
Take care,
TP
-
TJ,
I'm sorry, I know I am projecting a ton. You do sound confident and calm. I just am worrying, because I am seeing a rough prognosis for this coming all the way around to meet your needs.
I read a description of healthy intimacy once, and it said something to the effect of, healthy relationships do not involve exhausting struggle and analysis...there is a sense of comfort and ease about them. I, personally, have NEVER had one of these. So I am very very interested in that notion. What? No drama? No picking apart layer upon layer of bruises and scars and fears and reactions and subtexts and what-ifs and persuading and cajoling and explaining and, especially, "helping" him understand what kind of love I need?
when you say, you are just giving him time to "heal"--couldn't that be a euphemism for "change"? The reason I ask that is that above it, you said:
He also has a history of staying somewhat attached to a previous lover after getting married -- both marriages. In both cases he continued to see the previous lover once in a while until the attachment fell off the branch. To him, this is normal. To me, I've always been the opposite.
I don't want to make him "bad" for that either. There is a wide range of what people are comfortable with. I just know that I would need a clear demarcation and wouldn't wait through a year of ambivalence. Spent decades doing just that with various men...now I'm 55. Never did let myself attract or choose one who did not give out that signal.
Two books come to mind:
Escape from Intimacy by Anne Wilson Scharf (alas, I need to read it over and over and over), and
Passionate Marriage
Well, three:
Men Who Can't Love and the Women Who Love Them
(this is about commitment phobia, and the signs are so much more subtle than you might think. Has absolutely nothing to do with verbal declarations of love. Has everything to do with patterns you might possibly not recognize...one of the BIGGEST red flags in that book is keeping one toe in a previous relationship. And as you describe him, he's got a whole leg in there.)
I wish you luck, hon. I want it to work for you if it should and maybe it can. These are just the thoughts of someone who thinks she sees trouble or heartache or disappointment ahead for you, and doesn't want it to happen! (At the same time I am sure, sure, sure, that this may be too much projection from my own experience.)
I am glad you stick up for your own wisdom and sense of what's right for you, and hope what's posted here doesn't feel unsupportive.
Hugs,
Hopalong
-
Thanks for your caring and loving words, Hops.
Coincidentally I just got an email from him that wasn't just a red flag to me but a tankful of red flags with cannons booming. I don't care to go into it just now. Definitely not feeling content like I did an hour ago. I'm outta there. I'm still feeling stunned and just gonna go be alone now...
Hugs,
TP
-
TJ,
I'm so sorry.
I am guessing you may have just experienced "A Curtain Call."
That's in the Men Who Can't Love book...
which really made my hair stand on end the first time I read it.
Come back as soon as you can and let us help.
(((((((((((((((((((((Teja)))))))))))))))))))))))
Hopalong
PS--If it was a mistake, you made it out of hope and dreams. No punishing yourself, okay?
-
Hi TJ,
I'm sorry you feel disappointed now. I hope you were not in far enough to feel real hurt again. Maybe you just postponed feeling some of the original hurt but now it's back.
I was going to jump on the bandwagon and try to say in a nice way that it sounds fishy. All of our emotional immune systems are malfunctioning. Sometimes I seem to have no gut feeling at all. That's not right.
Just keep moving forward with what makes sense to you at the moment and try not to Monday morning quarterback too much. Now is a time to keep finding out what is cooking inside you, not to blame yourself for anything. Hope this is helpful - if I'm off base, ignore it all.
Plucky
-
Thanks y'all. I'm all right. So what's a "curtain call" -- like an encore?
-
Hiya Tej
Just a quick email to say thinking of you.... I hope whatever you decide will bring you much happiness in the long term.
Take care
H&H xx
-
Hi TJ,
I think I'm making up too much, filling in the blanks too eagerly (when I'm half off my own rocker I identify so intensely with everything I read that I often guess wrong). I don't know what was in his email.
But if you just went through a fairly dramatic and intense reunion, only to have the whole thing suddenly and painfully end (perhaps through harsh rejection or abrupt withdrawal on his part)...then that's a Curtain Call (one of the chapter titles in Men Who Can't Love). It's a specific and common thing that is unconsciouslly acted out by men who are phobic about commitment. That anywhere close?
I recall what you said about the trash in his house, which seems to show how he can't really claim the space he lives in. Can't resolve an uncommitted ambivalence about that either. That's in the book too.
But I could very well be totally off base.
I think you've had a hard shock and a rough day.
(((((((((Teja))))))))))))
Hops
-
Thanks.
It doesn't matter anymore. I'm done analyzing it. The email he sent me made me feel I can just been beat up. I was accused of doing something wrong and treated like the villain (for bolting when he made it clear that the N ex has her foot permanently in the door of his home). "You left me so that makes you the bad guy" kind of accussation. And there was threats of how angry he would be if I did it again.
Like being knocked on the head with an anvil at first I was stunned, and then I realized that he holds much hostility toward me. There is only one reason for him to have hostility toward me, and that is because I won't let him have both of us -- both me and her. He wants both and I won't let him have it and he knew as long as he hung onto her he could not feel certain I would stay.
First he said he would let go of her if it became a problem for me -- adding the proviso that if he did that he give her his property so he wouldn't feel guilty anymore. (Fine by me. That guilt is a cancer. If he had to give away the property to get rid of the cancer, so be it.) It turned out to be a bluff, because when I needed him to let go of her he couldn't do that because then his daughter wouldn't get to inherit his property. That was the beginning of the end -- really was the end -- my realizing that he was only bluffing me when he said he'd give her up if I needed that.
He wanted to wear me down. So many things tell me that he never had any intention of truly severing the primal bond with her. His admitted strategy was to keep me around until I got used to it. He tells himself and his friends that his bond(age) to her is spiritual and loving and giving and that I am just sick and insecure. I should put up with it without complaint. And, as the email showed last night, he was not above badgernig me to "keep me in my place." He wanted me to feel it was all my fault we ever broke up and that if I left him again it would be all my fault again and he would be pissed. Setting the whole stage for how *I* am the sick one so that he won't ever have to stop and look at himself, won't ever have to face the fact that he is still in a bondage and that part of it is his own making -- just as it still holds together because he guards it as if it were a precious pearl.
I'm not going to pity him anymore. He has made his choices. He chose to treat me the way he treated me. He chooses to short shrift me and then blame me when I complain. He would, if he had his way, turn me into something like the victim he has been to her. There is a sickness he used to and still calls love. It repulses me. I don't want it. I won't do it. I'm outta there.
As respectful goodbye I will not pity him. I hope for him the best for him and that he finds himself and gets really healthy someday. I can't be around to see it happen, coz being around him would only pull me down. Like Meatball says, "I would do anything for love, but I won't do that."
I won't post on this thread anymore because I know he'll probably continue to read it. I need to stop communicating with him.
-
P.S. Hopalong, thanks for the book recommendations -- and I love your analogy of the toe in the old relationship and him having his whole leg in it.
-
I didn't say this before, but he gave me the distinct impression that he was a narcissist himself. For example: the superior attitude of his ideal love, trying to "save face" by writing to you here, the subtle and not-so-subtle put-down of the people here being "pseudo-psychiatrists", the projection of his problems onto you.
Sorry, just my opinion. I'm no expert.
-
hey, Tejaspear: I waited to post, glad I did. Things have a way of working out....or not....and then it really works out because even if it hurts we wake up and heal.
I would have said that the guy sounded like a real P. I. T. A. (fill it in) if not a full blown A. H. and I was feeling bad for you that you felt like it would feel different in the future. Just my gut on him.
If he's reading, well, I don't think it would hurt for him to hear that he sure doesn't look very "evolved" even with all his esoteric posturing....(although I doubt he will ponder the opinions here very much)
It gets sticky when people invite significant others, ESPECIALLY those that they are having issues with, to also post and read here. I've seen that backfire before.. Your safe place gets invaded and no longer feels safe for you. Oh well, perhaps you can become "someone else"?
An additional thought: you were in a love triangle without your consent. That's painful, and I understand why you hurt but NOT why he defended any of it....(except the A**h*** explanation).
Good wishes to you. Sending love, light and peace.