Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Marta on January 23, 2006, 07:55:46 AM
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Andromedia's post re. labelling behavior got me thinking if lying is an intrinsic part of NPD. I don't necessarily see any connection between lack of empathy, need for attention, and pathologies lies. I mean, you can be a cold, heard person and still believe in abstract values of Truth and Justice, kind of like the executioner in Kafka's In the Penal Colony.
Do Ns lie because they cannot bear to admit a mistake, or because they have a twisted need to lie, or because they see nothing wrong in lying, or because it gives them power over others?
So I wanted to ask you:
1. Have you ever known an N who did not lie?
2. What are some of the worst lies your Ns have told? Why do you think they did it?
My answers:
1. I've only known two Ns. One lies through her teeth. Second one is very subtle about it and is an expert at twisting reality.
2. My mom lied that a piece of property belonged to her when it didn't, for which there is black and white documentation. Why? Because she likes to think that she is grandiose owner of everything under the sun.
Marta
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Hi Marta
I hope you are well.
Do Ns lie because they cannot bear to admit a mistake, or because they have a twisted need to lie, or because they see nothing wrong in lying, or because it gives them power over others?
With mine it's a twisted need to lie.
1. Have you ever known an N who did not lie?
2. What are some of the worst lies your Ns have told? Why do you think they did it?
1. No I haven't.
2. Bio dad... the worst lie is him twisting reality. When he threw me out of home at 17, his exact words were "Get out, go anywhere, I don't care".
When I said about him throwing me out, he said "I didn't throw you out... I sent you back to live with your mother because I was understandably inconsolable and asked you to get my tea for the first time, and you could only be bothered to make me beans on toast"
A classic case of twisting reality to suit himself so he didn't have to deal with any of the emotions that go with throwing your daughter out.
Take care
H&H xx
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Marta,
I think that in the case of my xnh, lying was done mostly to avoid any kind of confrontation. But interestingly enough, he would not lie when it involved any kind of authority figure or agency.
Case in point: One of the last confrontational opportunities I had with him was about 18 months ago when he was forced to meet with me to get my signature on our tax returns. Of course, he had procrastinated on getting the taxes done and the deadline was the next day. Our son had to sign one of the forms in order to get an $18 return. He was 90 miles away at college, so I told my xh to just forge his signature. He was not comfortable with that, so I said I would do it. He opted to drive the 90 miles each way to get his actual signature. I told him at the time that it was really sad that he was more concerned about being honest with the IRA than with his own family. He had no problem lying to me and our therapist about the extent of his affair, her age, marital status, how long they'd been seeing each other--the list goes on and on. He had been lying to me for years about many things that were crutial to the success of our marriage. I'm sure there are many things I will never know the truth about--and I don't care anymore.
I don't really know about the other n's in my life as they are all gone now. I never knew enough about my father to know if he was lying or not. I do know that years after his death, I discovered through legal documents that he had been married during the war to another woman and the marriage was ultimately annulled. No one ever mentioned that to me.
I do think lying is intrinsic to n behavior. The reasons probably vary, however.
Brigid
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Hi Marta
you can be a cold, hard person and still believe in abstract values of Truth and Justice
I agree. Like Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now too? It depends on your perception of what truth and justice are too. Truth is tricky. God or no God? Justice – death penalty good or bad? Etc!
I’d rather talk about reality than truth (as in absolute truth). My reality versus your reality (or my truth versus your truth?). So if 99 people agree that reality is what is actually written in a legal document, that is reality to me. If I don’t agree with it, I’m probably an N or other disordered personality/psyche.
Reality is key for me. Ns live in an alternative reality I think, where the normal rules of life (like getting old, death, taxes, running out of money, being fired for doing a rubbish job etc) don’t seem to apply. They construct their realities to fit their fantasies of themselves – very dangerous behaviour as if they go too far, stark reality can come crashing in on them (death, the police visit, the IRS visit, they go to prison, they lose the job).
They don’t inhabit the same world as us. It must be like a parallel universe! And they are the centre around which everything else revolves. Scary stuff.
So do they lie? Or do they create a reality that is acceptable to them and see it as true? I’ve seen con-men and other N-type folks take lie detector tests on tv and pass them, even though the facts (the gathered evidence about their actions) says the opposite to their answers. They believe their own lies. So that makes it their truth, in some sense.
They're not lying because they know it’s lying: they're lying because they cannot bear the truth. They reject the truth as unreal. In my opinion! And yes, I’ve heard lots and lots of it. Total distortions of reality and outright denial of others’ thoughts and feelings.
H&H
"Get out, go anywhere, I don't care".
Sorry H&H. :( :( :( He isn’t fit to be a father. In my world :D, he’d have failed the test necessary to get the Parent Licence and would have been sterilised until he could prove himself fit and capable. Which will probably be never. Too bad for him, sad for you H&H.
Gotta go, Portia on the go
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got me thinking.....Worst lies?
“You’re making your mother upset.”
“I know what you’re thinking.”
“I am never wrong.”
“You’d do better at school if you didn’t waste your time on that rubbish.”
grrrrrrrrrr........ :x and relax :roll: :roll:
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“I am never wrong.”
Ha ha ha... this is my bio dad. He just said it a different way.... "Now I don't know why that is, but I am always right"
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my ex has always told POINTLESS lies from time to time, nothing mega, just silly untruths which I would usually get to find were untrue.
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My H says he has to lie because if he told the truth, I would get upset. Another time he said that if he told the truth, I'd misunderstand. The truth is too confusing and lies are better????!!!!!
Plucky
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Interesting post...
I have been reading as much as I can about the lying aspect of NPD. What I have read (the operationdoubles site that someone posted is good) is that they need their alternative reality to be true so badly that a lot of times they are unaware they are lying. According to the site, they don't necessarily believe their own lies, but they desperately wasnt you to believe their lies. You (as their supply) must believe their alternative reality. That is your purpose. Search the operationdoubles/narc page for pathological liar and you'll see the article - it's fantastic.
As for lies my exN has told me......
He will tell me how an event we both were present for really occurred. For example: "When we were on our way to hospital with J and I was getting C out of the car, I carefully undid his seatbelt and he must have done it up before I started to pull him out of the car" TRUTH: He flew into a Narcissistic rage when his 11 year old son "disrespected him" and then proceeded trying to drag him out of the car. He failed (because I was screaming at him to stop) and left C with marks all over his neck from where the seatbelt had cut into him.
That was a big one.. we have the alternative reality as if I hadn't been there ... (What a nut!!)
There are millions of others. The best one at the moment is that he has told a district judge that the medication he is on is because he has headaches. I brought emails to court where he has told me he is mentally unstable so the judge asked him to provide a letter from his doctor stating that he just had headaches. He is six months late in providing it so far.... :) (I smile because although he lies constantly, the one way to send him into a hugely scary rage is to call him a liar. To prove him a liar is the worst thing I could possibly do to him.
The lying, for me, is one of the worst things with NPD. I just can't get any sense of equilibrium from someone whose definition of reality changes every five minutes. I cannot understand why an intelligent man (probably the most intelligent man you're likely to meet - guess whose words??? ;) ) would lie in instances where he WILL be found out? It is so screwy... but then that's the nature of the beast I suppose. :shock:
Ah well.... great thread!
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'reports of my death are greatly exaggerated...'
Classic!
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Hi all:
Do Ns lie because they cannot bear to admit a mistake, or because they have a twisted need to lie, or because they see nothing wrong in lying, or because it gives them power over others?
I don't know.......why anyone does anything but my best guess goes real close to what Portia wrote and Jacmac (a combination explanation....as far as my experience with liars goes). Wait a minute.....make that a combination of what everyone has written and add something about their "abilities" to boot (the liar's abilities).
I think my father was a pathalogical liar. I think he was aware of when he lied and was indeed trying to convince/control others into believing his lies, most of the time. I think he lied so much and so often that after awhile...his believed his lies...they became his reality. I think he was "unable" to face reality/truth/facts.
I think he lied because it was convenient, because he could definately not admit every doing wrong, because he saw nothing wrong with lying, because he enjoyed the power it gave him over others and because he had some twisted need to lie.....probably for attention. I don't think he was "capable" of not lying.
This also applies to others I have had relationships with who have told outrageous and never ending lies. It does seem like they "can't" tell the truth....are not "able" to face/admit/accept what's real.
I would add too.....I don't think they are "able" to stop themselves. I think it's an obsession/addiction/some kind of really hard to shake control tactic that they "can't" function without. It controls the info people get....and the picture the liar sees. They know they're lying. They "can't" stop. They like the control aspect and it becomes for their lifetime habitual.
What are some of the worst lies your Ns have told? Why do you think they did it?
I found out recently my father wasn't born where he said he was born. That's because where he was really born... was a small town, out west, where he had a child with another woman and he didn't want my mother etc to know about it. I guess I have a 1/2 sibbling somewhere or maybe more. Who knows how many?
I feel like the little bird, in the Dr. Suess story: "Are you my mother?". He goes around asking rocks, everything and everyone he runs into that question (and my fav....a big machine he names the "snort"). Except my question would be: "Are you my sibbling??"
Sela
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Liar, liar...pants on fire!! Sorry coudn't resist. Don't we all wish for that one???
N mom lies about how she feels and talks behind others backs.
N sister. Lies all the time. She even lies when it would be easier to tell the truth. She goes out of her way to lie or cover one up. She steals too and is a phony to people. Like Jekyl and Hyde. Sweet on moment and screaming witch the next.
N husband---lies and thinks he is telling the truth or that he is not hurting anyone. Or that he is just appeasing people. Big huge lies.
Biggest Lie??? I love you. HAHAHA
It really isn't us they love is it?
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Lying as control...that's it.
My ex lied and lies....because he feels like it, because he can if he wants to, because he has no moral compass, because it gets him what he wants, because it's all about him and what he wants when he wants it. His lying is so amazing, he convinces himself it's true and is "appalled" that others don't see what he does. It's a twisted, sick and totally selfish way to live.
He changes his reality to suit his wants and needs.
The "lies" I have been told are so extensive and awful that it would take a book to list them, and most of them could be written by others on this board. There is nothing new under the N's sun. How sad.
but I do have a funny N comment (what ever happened to that thread...most N comments ever?)
Neighbor N friend asks how the landscape bids are going. Told her I had X company over last week. She says "No, you had Y company over, I saw the truck with it's logo." I say, no, actually, it was X company, and the logo is not too similar, you must have seen that elsewhere or something". N: "NO!! I know what I saw, and Y company is who you talked to!!
NowTHAT'S an N talking. The need to be right far outweighs any friendship....even if the "right" is totally wrong ( and the sky is magenta if they say so).
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CONTROL! Why, yes, why hadn't I thought of that?
It appears that lying in intrinsic to N behavior. However, I am really disappointed by how little research there actually is in this area, other than pop psychology books. Any psyche students lurking here, Ns will make a great diss topic!
I've heard too that Ns can easily pass lie detector tests. Go figure.
Jacmac:
An ex N told me his wife, (living with him and his four kids ) was DEAD!!!
I don't think you can beat that.
I agree. Except for this one.
Surrounded:
Biggest Lie??? I love you. HAHAHA
Hahaha.
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My exNHub lied about:
1) who his bilogical parents were
2) what degrees he had (gave himself an extra one)
3) whom he'd had an affair with (before we met)
and many more, some I knew about, some I didn't. What I found notable was that in his case the aspect of Nism that says you can only associate with other high-status special people seemed to explain it, because:
1) he invented bioparents from famous families
2) awarded himself an extra graduate degree from a presitigious university
3) his affair was with a well-known actress
And the truth was:
1) his adoptive parents were ordinary people
2) he already had a perfectly adequate grad degree and teaching job (just wan't enough)
3) his sister had once been in a yoga class with that actress--he never met her
He did recreational lying. He was deeply insecure and f**d up. But I'm not completely positive he was N. There was a souful and sensitive side to him. He had some distorted version of Nism, maybe, but the lying was a huge part of it, whatever it was.
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Hello Everyone :D
Great post!! May I add that N's do get a "kick" out of lying. I'm convinced that they enjoy watching the reaction and facial expressions of the person they are lying to. I recall how their eyes would "dance" at the obvious look of disbelief or shock on my face. I couldn't pinpoint what was eminating from them......I can only describe it as "laughter in their eyes", but in a mean way?
Here's another twist to their lying skills: They are selective about what they tell you. So in their sick minds, they are just withholding some information.......yeah, setting you up for a fall. This is where their power play comes in. It is their way of controlling what they feel you need to know at any given time........it's like they are spoon-feeding you bits and pieces of truth........meanwhile not providing you with pertinent information because then you might get too proactive...
These folks spend their whole life practicing their one-upmanship!
Solayads
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Hi Marta, Great post.
1. Have you ever known an N who did not lie?
I thought one of my sister N's didn't but now thinking, she plays games by not responding to a question, she pretends she is proud of such and such a person and I know it's a LIE. Thats her new game face, she speaks about people with such pity. It's a crock, I wish she were that genuine and kind hearted. She has SELECTIVE memory down to a T.
2. What are some of the worst lies your Ns have told? Why do you think they did it?
One sister told me I put liquor in her water bottle while driving home she took a sip and choked after leaving a christening party at my home. Sister N doesn't remember which daughter, first, second or third. How could you forget?
Didn't see me do it. Yet, has the audacity to tell me I'm guilty of such an act and continues to says she knows I did or maybe my husband, she added that after I swore on my parents grave I never did such a thing. Still she is laughing at me, continues on how she tells this story to everyone. and this was said about me for over 15 years yet she never told me the STORY. Kinda Odd?? and says everone gets a big laugh out of it and it was just something I did to be funny and waved her hand at me like I was making a big deal out of nothing, As I sat in shock, that she would even start such an ugly rumor, broke my heart that she was trying to tinge such a blessed day for me. She looked right into my eyes with a smirk, enjoying the pain she saw back. What was the most interesting is that we went to a T together after being apart for almost 10 years. At those appointments I was brutally honest and she said she was sorry for all she had done to hurt me, she cried and said I don't know why things came out that way, very hurtful comments my whole life, she didn't understand why she did it also because she wanted to have a relationship with me and missed me, funny she never mentioned this story then. Hmmmmm Since that time I see her alone about twice a year. I don't trust
her, she always goes strait to the heart and has great aim.
Why, to make me feel dirty, less than, defenseless and gives her POWER over me. Just plain sick!
Sister #2 Lies everyday of her life. The worst lie, she says she has two cancers. I don't understand this, I've been with her to almost all of her oncologist appointments and he has never mentioned two cancers. I know she had a spot on her lung, but where and what kind is the other cancer? She says she doesn't remember the name? Isn't one enough? She actually has to top her cancer with another cancer that doesn't exist.
She lies about medical conditions all the time. If I didn't go with her, wait while she was being operated on, be with her while she had chemo and preventive head radiation. I wouldn't of believed her. Now isn't the saddest thing a sister can say about another sister.
She also I believe lied about know her husband raped her kids. She saw him laying nude by their bedrooms. I think that is a red flag, rather thats a lie or denial I'm not sure. I guess I would hope the second of the two.
Why, always for sympathy- equals much attention and money.
This is hard to think about. Hugs to all........seasons
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Hello Seasons:
Your post brought back some painful memories. My former N friends would always make me the center of their jokes when other people were around. They would make jokes about the way I spoke.....they felt that I spoke too "proper". They would joke about the way I enunciated my words, the fact that I had friends from different cultures. I was surprised at how xenophobic they were when they professed to love all people. Walking contradictions they were.......
Something that really stung me, which I found out much later was that at my father's funeral, just before the service started, the head guru was whispering to his members about how "old" my siblings looked. You see, for the most part, my siblings have 15 or more years on me. I am the youngest in my family. But it was just so unkind for him to walk around stirring up things at a funeral. Meanwhile, his wife never showed up. I think they were upset that the attention was focused on my family and not them? Also, he was not one of the people who was officiating at the funeral. I had friends of my family conduct the service because they knew my family for many years.
The lengths that N's go to to secure attention for themselves. They get downright dirty about doing it, too. It seems that the more controversial the circumstances are, they more warped they become. And once they cross over certain boundaries which deem their actions as unacceptable, they suddenly "forget" the details of what happened. He had said something later to the effect "If I'm not in charge, I cause trouble". I should have taken his words more seriously.
These are just some of the memories that I have to put behind me because it hurts to think about it.
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And once they cross over certain boundaries which deem their actions as unacceptable, they suddenly "forget" the details of what happened.
Exactly. I can relate to this, Solyads. Both NMom and NBro "forget" things that to me feel like screams of pain: my grandfather's abuse of her sisters, my brother's of me... NMom has always tried to "correct" my memories. Back when I still talked to her about my childhood, she would tell me what I experienced was not what I experienced. She had a great need for me to echo her version of reality. (In fairness, when I would sit down and tell her about something that had happened, she'd listen. But a week, a month later...she would rake that painful spot in a way that made me feel voiceless.
I think a caste system promotes so much social competitivenss (who knows, maybe N-ness too). Just like the history of slavery promotes so much horrible racial tension in the U.S. Interesting that the Nguru at your Dad's funeral was focused on appearances--who's young or old-looking--at a time when you'd think one might be tuned into their more spiritual side. No wonder that hurt. I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Hopalong
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H&H Quote;
Bio dad... the worst lie is him twisting reality. When he threw me out of home at 17, his exact words were "Get out, go anywhere, I don't care".
When I said about him throwing me out, he said "I didn't throw you out... I sent you back to live with your mother because I was understandably inconsolable and asked you to get my tea for the first time, and you could only be bothered to make me beans on toast"
H&H,
That is so cruel. I can't comprehend treating your child this way. I can only imagine your pain, especially not being heard. I
hear you load and clear. I'm sorry this happened to you. I'm speechless.......((((hugs))) seasons
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Jacmac;quote
An ex N told me his wife, (living with him and his four kids ) was DEAD!!! I don't think you can beat that
Unbelievable is what comes to mind, yet knowing N's it's the last word I think of, incredible!
solayads:quote
These are just some of the memories that I have to put behind me because it hurts to think about it.
I understand, I'm sorry. seasons
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hey guys,
From what I've noticed, lying solves many purposes to the malignant N. And the variety of lie is not always the obvious, glaring, one. Sometimes it is a reconfigured version of the truth, or maybe the mere "silent treatment," which in it's own way can be a lie if one's behavior is denying what must be true. Another of my "personal favorites" is feigning boredom, to me another version of lying because you get the rage and deniability in a nice, annoying little package of nothing. Gee, thanks, I think I'd rather go home and polish some silver, or paint the outhouse, or transcribe the Dead Sea Scrolls, anything to get away from the "bored" N. It's so fricking oppressive and exhausting.
Lies are also extremely handy to N's for the purposes of projection and character assassination, two major tools in the Ns toolkit.
I can find out all the truth I want to from my Nparents, Nsister, Nsister-and-law by listening to who they are projecting about. If mom is saying, "Yeah, that so and so, all she wants is credit for all my ideas!," I know that it is she who is trying to hi-jack the "credit" for something that poor so and so conceptualized.
When it comes to character assassination, no suprise here, my Ns will go to any length to protect their own sick, perverted versions of the truth. Most recently, my sister-in-law, in order to screw with my H's head, is on a campaign to convince my H that their father, (whose known to have shown intense favourtism towards the sister), is homosexual and she's stark raving upset about it. She's doing the double-duty of toying with my H's emotions and putting things out there that would mortify her father. (BTW, H consistently hold's that their father's sex life is his own business, and that she shouldn't be sooo upset about it, especially since they're now all grown and on their own). When you tell her things like this, she throws tantrums and feels entitled to her father's complete honesty and devotion, despite the fact that she has moved 900 miles away from him. My sister-in-law uses rampant accusations and lies to incense others. The only way to diffuse her in an argument, she LOVES to argue, is to just state, "now I know you're lying!" with a smile when she's right in the middle of her extreme exaggerations. Of course, she immediately goes into damage control and cuts a few jokes to lighten the mood, but she's coming for you later, you better believe it.
Now my father, the introverted variety, a preacher for 35 years, would NEVER be caught lying. And he is whom I fear the most. My mother and SIL, I can easily figure out, they give everything away with their outrageous behavior. But my Dad, he's so conniving and quietly evasive, that I can't even believe things I am told about him. I have been trying to trace our family's geneaology but I have no idea of what my paternal grandfather's name was nor in what city my father was born, or anything about my father's past prior to his meeting my mom. I mean really, my father could be an escape murder convict for all I know. He has these two huge scars on his arms I later found out are the 1970s approach to tatoo removal. "What were they Dad?" I would ask. He would act offended and change the subject or simply ignore me and exit stage left. He seems like a passionate minister, he adopts emotionally damaged dogs, he gives homeless people rides to church. But he empolys ignore-ance and avoidance to stay out of serious trouble while wreaking daily emotionally havoc on the hapless victims at church and at work.
All the other characteristics of introverted NPD are there; using larger icons and an inflated superego to opress those around him, physcial vanity, past upheavals, etc. are there but he doesn't really outright lie or do other gregarious, prove-able characteristics generally associated with NPD. Just as dangerous, IMO, if not more.
tiffany
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Well, M. Scott Peck's book is called : People of the Lie" for a good reason. Lying to themselves, to the world IS WHO THEY ARE.
My exN used to regularly insist upon having done something or another with me....that I know damn well we did not do and NEVER LET IT GO until I gave up and said "ok fine, have it your way" or I was in tears and then he would call me a baby and a wimp. What a great guy!! So I guess that would be just lying for the hell of it, for cruel jollies, right?
And Jordanspeeps I think you covered so many I forgot about:
the feining boredom: My exN would act "bored" and haughtily uninterested/cocky during discussions with my OBGYN and then did that same thing during the delivery of both my children! Like if he got excited or genuinely interested it wouldn't be cool somehow. GRRRRRR all over again.
And character assasination: well, my ex and his lawyer are all over that one, in each and everything they file in court (and they file anything and everything). It's pretty hard to walk away from that fight, as he is OUTRAGEOUS in his attacks.
("do not engage, do not engage, do not engage"......)
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You know what is really strange to me? My former N-Pastor attempts to contact me every few weeks. In his case, he goes back and forth between "you were/were not a great member". Yet this is the same individual who tells me how much he needs help with his church administration. It is on these occasions that I was so "wonderful" as a member. Now mind you, he and his wife "dangled" the admin job over my head for two years. I guess they wanted me to grovel for it? I did not care whether I worked in the administration office or not. But there were many times when I would run errand after errand after errand......and they would never even say "Thank you".
I would lose sleep running around town for these people while they would talk and laugh about me and never offer a red dime for gas money. They would tell me that they could not afford to pay me a salary. Meanwhile, they always had another luxury car, expensive clothing, expensive jewelry.
I mean.....who are they kidding?
One minnute he admits how wrong they both were for taking me for granted......then the next minute, he's blaming me.
There was so much "stealth" lying going on there!
One of my biggest blunders was getting mixed up with them. And my heart grows colder each day I'm away from the whole mess.
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I'm sorry folks if I'm hogging the board.....I just feel a strong need to vent right now. Gotta share this one with you:
The N-Pastor's wife opens a business in another town. She gets one of the kleptomaniac members to run her store for her while she and her husband fly up and down the coast for their speaking engagements. She seems to think that she can run a business without ever being there herself. Lord help her if she should ever roll up her own sleeves and break a nail.
Now mind you, the person she leaves to run the business was caught stealing on her own job which is why she was fired. And she has NO management skills whatsoever.
My fellow board members.....do you see the RED SIGNALS??? I sure do wish I saw them sooner!!!
The contradictions are insane!!!!! And they have the nerve to talk about being so blessed and prosperous!
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Have you ever heard of the expression: "The biggest trick the devil ever pulled off was convincing us that he/evil didn't even exist."
When I meet extremely devout and religious people (or any other persons extremely/overly devoted to a good cause, i.e. high ranking military and police officers, top physicians and politicians, judges, etc.), I watch them more closely. Instead of putting your guard down, you should put it up further. There is a millinea long history of evil and it's juxtaposition and enmeshment with good. It's a strategic tactic to "hide in plain view" or to "keep your enemies closer." What makes a crazy person an N, anyway: his desire to cover his real self with a false, more impressive, acceptable one.
Let your intuitions guide you. What is the history with psychopath serial killers like Son of Sam and John Wayne Gasey and BTK and even Scott Peterson? To their communities, families, and co-workers, they were all upstanding considerate citizens and neighbors. But inside they were arrogant, scathing, savage, Narcissists who planned to terrorize until their dying days.
Tiff.
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Have you ever heard of the expression: "The biggest trick the devil ever pulled off was convincing us that he/evil didn't even exist."
Is this from the film "the Usual Suspects?" I think of this quote often. Sooooo true IMO.
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When I said about him throwing me out, he said "I didn't throw you out... I sent you back to live with your mother because I was understandably inconsolable and asked you to get my tea for the first time, and you could only be bothered to make me beans on toast"
H&H, this quote probably sticks in your mind for the reason that your biodad, in his sick little mind, still thinks that this, even if it were true, would be a reasonable excuse to throw out your daughter. Because she did not serve him a proper tea. As if you are a servant who was dismissed! Not only was the situation hurtful, whatever the true events were, but the fact that he continues to trot this out as a normal precedent to severing your relationship just trivialises family ties and his connection to you every time you have to hear it or read it. The fact that it is completely ridiculous makes it all the worse.
Plucky
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When I said about him throwing me out, he said "I didn't throw you out... I sent you back to live with your mother because I was understandably inconsolable and asked you to get my tea for the first time, and you could only be bothered to make me beans on toast"
H&H, this quote probably sticks in your mind for the reason that your biodad, in his sick little mind, still thinks that this, even if it were true, would be a reasonable excuse to throw out your daughter. Because she did not serve him a proper tea. As if you are a servant who was dismissed! Not only was the situation hurtful, whatever the true events were, but the fact that he continues to trot this out as a normal precedent to severing your relationship just trivialises family ties and his connection to you every time you have to hear it or read it. The fact that it is completely ridiculous makes it all the worse.
Plucky
Thank you Plucky.... and thank you Seasons.
This was one of the more recent things he said, before our wedding, when I was trying to explain that as he had thrown me out of his house, I didn't want him to walk me down the isle. I couldn't remember what he had said on the day until later, but I always had in my head that he threw me out because his girlfriend left him (she did earlier that day), so when he said I didn't throw you out... I was like, what? Hey? I don't get this!
It was a few months later when it came back to me what actually happened... the conversation that day went like this when I had got in from work:-
Me:- Would you like a cup of tea?
Him:- Tea... no, what good will tea do. You can get me something to eat if you'd like too.
Me:- Ok, I can russel up some beans on toast (Background is he only has a microwave anyway... doesn't think he needs an oven)
Him:- Whatever... I can't be doing with you here. Get out, go anywhere, I don't care.
Me (said in a very small voice):- But I've got nowhere to go, where will I go.
Him:- Whereever, I don't know.... (and as an afterthought) go back to your mother's
So I think this sticks in my memory because I couldn't remember what had happened and how his version of events was so different to mine. I also remember feeling so small and lonesome when Mum and him were arguing on the phone and I could hear Mum going "Oh god no, we can't have her back, we can't put up with her, we haven't got the space for her anymore".... but bio dad was adamant I was out of his house there and then.
My H is asleep at the moment.... he's never heard this either. There's always two sides to every story isn't there? and I think that anyone would think I must have done something to deserve this... I must have been a rotten 17 year old. xx
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H&H:
anyone would think I must have done something to deserve this... I must have been a rotten 17 year old
Pfah! Ptooey! Plaugghh! Bleaaahhh! Blecccchhh! Ptoo!!
Spit that thought right out, hon!
Neither of them was one whit capable of nurturing and if they gave out licenses for parenting they way they do for driving a car, your parents would still be on their tricycles. Whining.
You were just as sweet and hopeful a 17 year old as could be. You'd been hurt over and over and YOU DID NOT DESERVE IT.
that 17 y/o deserves a big hug from YOU now...meanwhile here's a starter:
((((((((((((((((17 y/o H&H))))))))))))))))
Hops
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Lies from ex N...
I love you...
I will always be fathful...
If you lend me 25,.000 I will not run away and steal it from you..... I could never do that to you (said with tears in his eyes)
You don't suit anything.... even though I think you are beautiful...
I want to marry you...
Your behaviour is unacceptable so I will not take you out with me and my friends..... This is not because i want to chat up other women !!!!!
I don't really want you to give me half of your house...
And from my mother....
You have satan inside you...
You will drive me into a mental hospital...
You should only ever wear trousers....
You make me ill...
You will grow up to be a dirty woman with dirty children...
You are a sloven..
You are the lowest of the low..
You are a psychiatric nurse because schizophrenia is demonic...
You will have no friends...
Those are just the ones of the top of my head....
Spyralle x
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H&H,I have been reading your posts regarding your "dad" (and mom, actually) and I don't think I have ever told you how AMAZING and WONDERFUL you are. I really don't know how someone so beautiful grows from that kind of toxic soil......
You are inspiring. You have reminded me again and again that we are who we are because of everything we've been through and many times the toughest things can bring forth strength and grace beyond compare.
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Spyralle,
yikes! your mother said all that!!!!! Well at least you see them clearly as the toxic lies they are. May she rot!
Plucky
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Spyralle, OMG, that's so terrible! And amazing how much it reminds me of what my friend's N mother always told her. (She just told me yesterday how she still hears those tapes inside her head, at age 58, even though her N mom hasn't said many of them for years, like, "You're just an ugly fat girl that no one will ever care about.") It's so criminal...!!!!!!!!
Something in this thread reminded me of something I learned quite recently about my grandfather (who passed away when I was a toddler). His wife, my grandmother, had 3 children, all of which came out with terrible, terrible psychological problems -- one being my N mother, another being my N uncle and another being my other uncle who was a scary pervert (now gone). Anyhow, I lived with my grandmother for a while and she told me about when she met my grandfather. The day she met him she asked if he was married and he said, "The sun has never risen on a woman I would marry." Everyone in the family -- as far as I know (because I no longer communicate with my uncles or mother) -- has always believed that my grandmother was the only wife he ever had. Well, I was playing around looking up the genealogy of the family, and lo and behold, my grandfather WAS married before -- and had EIGHT children with his first wife before he married my grandmother (who was nearly 30 years younger than him)! Speaking of lies, how's that for a "whopper"?!!
And it's such a juicy bit of "family gossip," 'tis a shame I don't have anything to do with anyone on that side of the family anymore. Well, at least I got to tell my brother. ;)
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Dear Bean,
Could your Dad be any relation to James Frey of A Million Little Pieces?
Been a big scandal lately about Oprah and Frey... your Dad's lies remind me of his.
But I guess all lies are alike, really.
Salon.com had an article on the Frey fray a few days ago...what's even more fascinating to read are all the Letters.
Hops
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Lies by omission: my father allowed all of his friends and acquaintances to believe he had only one child, my sister. I always wondered why I was kept in the house all summer on our visitation with him. On the very rare occasion I was out, whenever we met anyone he knew, and he knew everyone, such a popular, nice guy! I kept hearing, "I didn't know you had another daughter!". When I was older, I was frequently taken for his date! He had to rush to correct the person before I heard more than I should. Yuk!
Plucky
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You always make me smile Plucky X
My dad told the same kind of lie. Well both of them did. When I was thirty two I found out that my dad had been married before, to a bigamist... She had been married to someone who had gone off to war and then she married my dad. they had two children and then her first husband came back. apparantly she left that day with the two children and that was that... it was never spoken of in my house and my brother still does not know. i only found out as my dad was dying and started to ramble about the past so my mum had to tell me. Maybe that explains why my father didn't really want much to do with me. Certainly explains why I was never allowed to create my family tree..
Spyralle x
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hmmmmm interesting post! my frequent n mother lies:
"i dont care what people think" "when you were growing up, my house was clean and run like clockwork" "i never lie" "i never say anything i dont mean" "i always accept the consequences of my actions" "when you were little, you had free run of the house, to make as much mess as you wanted" "you never went without anything" (material no, love yes, until i was 12 and earning my own money, then i was buying my own clothes, school uniforms, and school lunches)
"i forgot why you had a brainscan" "i never get myself into debt, i live by my means" "i have always loved you, and always will" "i am not selfish, i always put others needs first, people do not ever think of me and what i want" "you have no reason to feel insecure" "i never apologise, because i dont say or do anything wrong" "if people take me the wrong way, then thats their problem, i dont have to justify myself to anyone" "i never smacked you around the head" "i treat you all the same"
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Was that Chinese post (now deleted) links to a ‘girly’ site? Or something else? I installed my ‘Chinese’ (sic) language stuff just to look at it. It didn’t help much! Ah well.
Darky, these stood out to me, for my reasons:
"you have no reason to feel insecure"
Dontcha just love those ‘you feel/think’ statements? Bad programming indeed. ‘What you think or feel is wrong, only I know how you think and feel’. How can you get to trust your own stuff?
"i never apologise, because i dont say or do anything wrong"
Classic. There’s no arguing with this. No arguing, no talking, no nothing. Just silence.
(((((Darky)))) you had it tough. I’m glad you’re here.
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omg bean im peeing myself laffing at his one "we dont have to keep up with the jones's" you wanna know why??? because we ARE jones's, honestly!!! jones is my maiden name hahahahahahaha!!
and as for treating the same! well, my mother looked after my nephew for a week when my sister gave birth to her second son. my mother couldnt have my 2 boys for more then 12 hours when my daughter was born. in fact, it took me ages to convince her to have them at all. her attitude? well, "when you were born, fathers didnt come in, i was dropped t the door, i did it, you can do it" hours after i had my princess, i asked mother if she could watch the boys just for a few more hours as me and hubby had not had time together since the birth as the birth was late in the evening. she said "back in my day, you got on with it, i didnt choose for you to have this baby its your responsability, you made your bed go lie on it!
oh and all the time we were growing up, my mother said she had taken out a policy so when we turned 18 we have have a few quid to help us get our foot in life. i turned 18, policy matured, did i see it? hell no, my mum and dad went to america! (im from uk) had a great time and didnt as much as buy us a stick of candy lol. when my middle sisters matured, she got a car and she got it because life was hard as she had a baby when she was 17. my youngest sister got thrown out just before hers matured, and what did they do with the money? they went to america again lol.
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Hi Spyralle! Just read this thread and saw your post. Boy can i identify with what you said- esp comments from your mother! Maybe we are siblings! Hee hee! Like many others here, I used to fantasize i really must have been adopted...soooo...maybe we are related! I wax idiotic! Anyway...my mother used to say to and about me: "All my other children have real talents....you are stupid...you are crazy and will always have to live at home with our father and me....you will never be able to live on your own, go to school or hold a job ...you are fat....you are amoral...you are going to hell...you are a slut" etc etc. I am left handed, dyslexic, have a mental illness( just like dear old mom- I'm bipolar as opposed to her Nism), broke away from my church as a teen, have been married more than once, have had long term live in relationships, have a university and college degree, have a career and am a professional X 20 years, etc. ironically, spyralle, I too am a nurse working in psychiatry! Ya do what ya know, eh?! hee hee! I've also certainly had more than my share of N men's bullshit. " You are my soul mate.....you are the most beautiful, smartest, most loving woman I've ever been with, I'm a lucky man, You are the ugliest, oldest, most miserable, pathetic bitch I've ever met...I'm an idiot. You played me...You used me..You are the liar....I'm calling your psychiatrist to have you committed to the psych ward because you keep accusing me of things I don't do...so you are the crazy one" blah blah!!!! On a good day I can look at both my Nmother and ex Ns as tortured people who were raised with either abuse or abandonment- or both- and are damaged themselves. i do now believe that my mother did love me to the extent she was capable of and to the best of her ability given her own childhood betrayals, abuse etc. i don't see her as evil anymore! Validating to read other's experiences- and painful too. Hugs, Moira
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"I just need 1 hour a day because I love you so much."
"I don't get turned on by other women ever."
"When you don't hold my hand it must mean you don't love me."
"If you don't put a towel up on the shower stall for me it means you don't care about me anymore."
"When you put the armrest up between us on the plane it means you hate me."
"When you go for a walk without me, you are thinking that you want to break up."
It's not really lies, you see. The person is telling you their belief system. They really believe these things. It's also called magical thinking. Logical beings can pick out the illogic of it. But in the throes of BPD or NPD, these folks are not coherent of reality. They truly believe. Therefore they can argue, debate, and LIE until blue in the face and totally believe what they are saying. They can convince other people. "Wow, I was passionate, wasn't I?" Yes, but totally off.
It's part of the diagnostic for NPD.