Ns and lying

[Marta]

Andromedia's post re. labelling behavior got me thinking if lying is an intrinsic part of NPD. I don't necessarily see any connection between lack of empathy, need for attention, and pathologies lies. I mean, you can be a cold, heard person and still believe in abstract values of Truth and Justice, kind of like the executioner in Kafka's In the Penal Colony.

Do Ns lie because they cannot bear to admit a mistake, or because they have a twisted need to lie, or because they see nothing wrong in lying, or because it gives them power over others?
So I wanted to ask you:

1. Have you ever known an N who did not lie?
2. What are some of the worst lies your Ns have told? Why do you think they did it?

My answers:
1. I've only known two Ns. One lies through her teeth. Second one is very subtle about it and is an expert at twisting reality.
2. My mom lied that a piece of property belonged to her when it didn't, for which there is black and white documentation. Why? Because she likes to think that she is grandiose owner of everything under the sun.

Marta

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi Marta

I hope you are well.

Do Ns lie because they cannot bear to admit a mistake, or because they have a twisted need to lie, or because they see nothing wrong in lying, or because it gives them power over others?

With mine it's a twisted need to lie.


1. Have you ever known an N who did not lie?
2. What are some of the worst lies your Ns have told? Why do you think they did it?

1.  No I haven't.

2.  Bio dad... the worst lie is him twisting reality.  When he threw me out of home at 17, his exact words were "Get out, go anywhere, I don't care".
When I said about him throwing me out, he said "I didn't throw you out... I sent you back to live with your mother because I was understandably inconsolable and asked you to get my tea for the first time, and you could only be bothered to make me beans on toast"

A classic case of twisting reality to suit himself so he didn't have to deal with any of the emotions that go with throwing your daughter out.

Take care


H&H xx

[Brigid]

Marta,
I think that in the case of my xnh, lying was done mostly to avoid any kind of confrontation.  But interestingly enough, he would not lie when it involved any kind of authority figure or agency.

Case in point:  One of the last confrontational opportunities I had with him was about 18 months ago when he was forced to meet with me to get my signature on our tax returns.  Of course, he had procrastinated on getting the taxes done and the deadline was the next day.  Our son had to sign one of the forms in order to get an $18 return.  He was 90 miles away at college, so I told my xh to just forge his signature.  He was not comfortable with that, so I said I would do it.  He opted to drive the 90 miles each way to get his actual signature.  I told him at the time that it was really sad that he was more concerned about being honest with the IRA than with his own family.  He had no problem lying to me and our therapist about the extent of his affair, her age, marital status, how long they'd been seeing each other--the list goes on and on.  He had been lying to me for years about many things that were crutial to the success of our marriage.  I'm sure there are many things I will never know the truth about--and I don't care anymore.

I don't really know about the other n's in my life as they are all gone now.  I never knew enough about my father to know if he was lying or not.  I do know that years after his death, I discovered through legal documents that he had been married during the war to another woman and the marriage was ultimately annulled.  No one ever mentioned that to me.

I do think lying is intrinsic to n behavior.  The reasons probably vary, however.

Brigid

[P on the go]

Hi Marta

you can be a cold, hard person and still believe in abstract values of Truth and Justice
I agree. Like Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now too? It depends on your perception of what truth and justice are too. Truth is tricky. God or no God? Justice – death penalty good or bad? Etc!

I’d rather talk about reality than truth (as in absolute truth). My reality versus your reality (or my truth versus your truth?). So if 99 people agree that reality is what is actually written in a legal document, that is reality to me. If I don’t agree with it, I’m probably an N or other disordered personality/psyche.

Reality is key for me. Ns live in an alternative reality I think, where the normal rules of life (like getting old, death, taxes, running out of money, being fired for doing a rubbish job etc) don’t seem to apply. They construct their realities to fit their fantasies of themselves – very dangerous behaviour as if they go too far, stark reality can come crashing in on them (death, the police visit, the IRS visit, they go to prison, they lose the job).

They don’t inhabit the same world as us. It must be like a parallel universe! And they are the centre around which everything else revolves. Scary stuff.

So do they lie? Or do they create a reality that is acceptable to them and see it as true? I’ve seen con-men and other N-type folks take lie detector tests on tv and pass them, even though the facts (the gathered evidence about their actions) says the opposite to their answers. They believe their own lies. So that makes it their truth, in some sense.

They're not lying because they know it’s lying: they're lying because they cannot bear the truth. They reject the truth as unreal. In my opinion! And yes, I’ve heard lots and lots of it. Total distortions of reality and outright denial of others’ thoughts and feelings.


H&H
"Get out, go anywhere, I don't care".

Sorry H&H.   He isn’t fit to be a father. In my world , he’d have failed the test necessary to get the Parent Licence and would have been sterilised until he could prove himself fit and capable. Which will probably be never. Too bad for him, sad for you H&H.

Gotta go, Portia on the go

[P again]

got me thinking.....Worst lies?

“You’re making your mother upset.”

“I know what you’re thinking.”

“I am never wrong.”

“You’d do better at school if you didn’t waste your time on that rubbish.”

grrrrrrrrrr........ and relax

[Healing&Hopeful]

“I am never wrong.”

Ha ha ha... this is my bio dad.  He just said it a different way.... "Now I don't know why that is, but I am always right"

[write]

my ex has always told POINTLESS lies from time to time, nothing mega, just silly untruths which I would usually get to find were untrue.

[Plucky]

My H says he has to lie because if he told the truth,  I would get upset.  Another time he said that if he told the truth, I'd misunderstand.  The truth is too confusing and lies are better????!!!!!
Plucky

[Cadbury]

Interesting post...

I have been reading as much as I can about the lying aspect of NPD. What I have read (the operationdoubles site that someone posted is good) is that they need their alternative reality to be true so badly that a lot of times they are unaware they are lying. According to the site, they don't necessarily believe their own lies, but they desperately wasnt you to believe their lies. You (as their supply) must believe their alternative reality. That is your purpose. Search the operationdoubles/narc page for pathological liar and you'll see the article - it's fantastic.

As for lies my exN has told me......

He will tell me how an event we both were present for really occurred. For example: "When we were on our way to hospital with J and I was getting C out of the car, I carefully undid his seatbelt and he must have done it up before I started to pull him out of the car" TRUTH: He flew into a Narcissistic rage when his 11 year old son "disrespected him" and then proceeded trying to drag him out of the car. He failed (because I was screaming at him to stop) and left C with marks all over his neck from where the seatbelt had cut into him.

That was a big one.. we have the alternative reality as if I hadn't been there ... (What a nut!!)

There are millions of others. The best one at the moment is that he has told a district judge that the medication he is on is because he has headaches. I brought emails to court where he has told me he is mentally unstable so the judge asked him to provide a letter from his doctor stating that he just had headaches. He is six months late in providing it so far.... (I smile because although he lies constantly, the one way to send him into a hugely scary rage is to call him a liar. To prove him a liar is the worst thing I could possibly do to him.

The lying, for me, is one of the worst things with NPD. I just can't get any sense of equilibrium from someone whose definition of reality changes every five minutes. I cannot understand why an intelligent man (probably the most intelligent man you're likely to meet - guess whose words??? ) would lie in instances where he WILL be found out? It is so screwy... but then that's the nature of the beast I suppose.

Ah well.... great thread!

[write]

'reports of my death are greatly exaggerated...'

Classic!

[Sela]

Hi all:

Do Ns lie because they cannot bear to admit a mistake, or because they have a twisted need to lie, or because they see nothing wrong in lying, or because it gives them power over others?

I don't know.......why anyone does anything but my best guess goes real close to what Portia wrote and Jacmac (a combination explanation....as far as my experience with liars goes).  Wait a minute.....make that a combination of what everyone has written and add something about their "abilities" to boot (the liar's abilities).

I think my father was a pathalogical liar.  I think he was aware of when he lied and was indeed trying to convince/control others into believing his lies, most of the time.  I think he lied so much and so often that after awhile...his believed his lies...they became his reality.  I think he was "unable" to face reality/truth/facts.
I think he lied because it was convenient, because he could definately not admit every doing wrong, because he saw nothing wrong with lying, because he enjoyed the power it gave him over others and because he had some twisted need to lie.....probably for attention.  I don't think he was "capable" of not lying.

This also applies to others I have had relationships with who have told outrageous and never ending lies.  It does seem like they "can't" tell the truth....are not "able" to face/admit/accept what's real.

I would add too.....I don't think they are "able" to stop themselves.  I think it's an obsession/addiction/some kind of really hard to shake control tactic that they "can't" function without.  It controls the info people get....and the picture the liar sees.  They know they're lying.  They "can't" stop.  They like the control aspect and it becomes for their lifetime habitual.

What are some of the worst lies your Ns have told? Why do you think they did it?

I found out recently my father wasn't born where he said he was born.  That's because where he was really born... was a small town, out west, where he had a child with another woman and he didn't want my mother etc to know about it.  I guess I have a 1/2 sibbling somewhere or maybe more.   Who knows how many?

I feel like the little bird, in the Dr. Suess story:  "Are you my mother?".  He goes around asking rocks, everything and everyone he runs into that question (and my fav....a big machine he names the "snort").    Except my question would be:  "Are you my sibbling??"

Sela

[Surrounded]

Liar, liar...pants on fire!!  Sorry coudn't resist.  Don't we all wish for that one???

N mom lies about how she feels and talks behind others backs.

N sister.  Lies all the time.  She even lies when it would be easier to tell the truth.  She goes out of her way to lie or cover one up.  She steals too and is a phony to people.  Like Jekyl and Hyde.  Sweet on moment and screaming witch the next.

N husband---lies and thinks he is telling the truth or that he is not hurting anyone.  Or that he is just appeasing people.  Big huge lies. 

Biggest Lie???   I love you.    HAHAHA   

It really isn't us they love is it? 

[mum]

Lying as control...that's it.
My ex lied and lies....because he feels like it, because he can if he wants to, because he has no moral compass, because it gets him what he wants, because it's all about him and what he wants when he wants it. His lying is so amazing, he convinces himself it's true and is "appalled" that others don't see what he does. It's a twisted, sick and totally selfish way to live.
He changes his reality to suit his wants and needs.
The "lies" I have been told are so extensive and awful that it would take a book to list them, and most of them could be written by others on this board. There is nothing new under the N's sun. How sad.

but I do have a funny N comment (what ever happened to that thread...most N comments ever?)
Neighbor N friend asks how the landscape bids are going. Told her I had X company over last week. She says "No, you had Y company over, I saw the truck with it's logo." I say, no, actually, it was X company, and the logo is not too similar, you must have seen that elsewhere or something". N: "NO!! I know what I saw, and Y company is who you talked to!!
NowTHAT'S an N talking. The need to be right far outweighs any friendship....even if the "right" is totally wrong ( and the sky is magenta if they say so).

[Marta]

CONTROL! Why, yes, why hadn't I thought of that?

It appears that lying in intrinsic to N behavior. However, I am really disappointed by how little research there actually is in this area, other than pop psychology books. Any psyche students lurking here, Ns will make a great diss topic!

I've heard too that Ns can easily pass lie detector tests. Go figure.

Jacmac:
An ex N told me his wife, (living with him and his four kids ) was DEAD!!! 
I don't think you can beat that.

I agree. Except for this one.

Surrounded:
Biggest Lie???   I love you.    HAHAHA   

Hahaha.

[Hopalong]

My exNHub lied about:
1) who his bilogical parents were
2) what degrees he had (gave himself an extra one)
3) whom he'd had an affair with (before we met)

and many more, some I knew about, some I didn't. What I found notable was that in his case the aspect of Nism that says you can only associate with other high-status special people seemed to explain it, because:

1) he invented bioparents from famous families
2) awarded himself an extra graduate degree from a presitigious university
3) his affair was with a well-known actress

And the truth was:
1) his adoptive parents were ordinary people
2) he already had a perfectly adequate grad degree and teaching job (just wan't enough)
3) his sister had once been in a yoga class with that actress--he never met her

He did recreational lying. He was deeply insecure and f**d up. But I'm not completely positive he was N. There was a souful and sensitive side to him. He had some distorted version of Nism, maybe, but the lying was a huge part of it, whatever it was.