Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on February 05, 2006, 06:21:36 PM
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Err...the recent flurry of posts about awkward feelings has got my head stuck so far into my navel I can see thru my vertebrae.
And because one of the Nspots can be, well, isn't everything about meeeeeeee? It's embarrassing, but here's what I was just thinking:
What with a little bragging about my writing here and there (posted a poem way back, and recently a Salon letter) and my ... often-hearty appetite for posting... and my having a vigorous opinion on Just About Everything ...
Are my Nspots bigger than I think? Am I demonstrating internatlized Nishness so I've hurt anyone?
I hope not but if I have, I'm sorry.
I'd rather think I can just keep hopping along, but if I'm overlooking a chance for a reality check or a little lesson in how I might be coming across, I would not mind hearing it.
(Ain't eager to have my feelings hurt, of course. But I have a lot of respect for folks here, and I know I would learn.) So if anyone does have a thought or guidance, it'd be welcome.
Thanks all,
Hopalong
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H- you're ok, I'm ok (((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))) :)
I'm sorry if I've pinged everyone, it's an INFJ trait, its like esp sometimes... :|
Maybe this is part of a natural stage in any therapeutic relationship too.
I have been around for ages now, probably 2+ years, though for ages I wouldn't even register, didn't even give myself a name at first!
And now we are talking about each other's traits, there is lots of shared humour, we pm each other...we are losing the anonimity, even with anonimity!
My friend just arrived, gotta go: more later
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Thanks Write.
Maybe it had nothing to do with me and I had my nose somewhere other than my navel...
:?
Hops
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Hops - Thanks for mentioning your feelings here. Funny I had the same thing going on yesterday when I made a recommendation and didn't get "validated" for my "infinate" wisdom - N moment
Bravo for you. You seem to get lots of growth opportunities from this board!
We're cool!
Movinon
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Thanks guys, I needed that
Sweet dreams....
HOPALONG
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Geez...I'm thinking, should I be glad I have no clue ( I got lost on a few of the posts) what's going on...and WHEW, it's not me this time!! I've had my share (still do) of misunderstandings and disagreements. It's part and parcel of the brave attempt at connecting. Sort of the cost of doing business.
"No one would talk much in society if they knew how often they misunderstood others". (Goethe)
I think that's true. But as messy as it is, trying again and again to connect is what keeps us compassionate toward ourselves and others. It's the crazy/beautiful thing called being human.
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Mum,
You just sung a lullaby...a lovely one.
thanks for the grace...
love,
Hops
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Thanks, Bean. :oops:
Hops
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Hoppy hon
I hope we're ok.... I don't see any reason for us not to be ok....
I feel that we all have N spots, there is a difference between healthy narcissism (which we all should have) and full blown NPD. I never get the impression that you are trying to over inflate yourself, that you don't emphasize (sp) etc etc... we all have things going on in our lives where we feel that it is important to share, and we'll all have times where we don't always agree. In my book, it's what makes us individual.
Take care
H&H xx
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Okay I don’t do this very often but I feel like it
((((((Hopalong, Write, Movinon, Jacmac, Mum, Bean, H&H))))))
Ohhhh a group hug…. :oops: my intimacy-phobia stuff is all wriggly inside me! Good job it’s a message board and not 3D!!!! I’d be over that fence and doing 20 miles an hour away. :mrgreen:
Haha. *thinks* maybe it’s a bit N to give a group hug? Like who wants me to join in?
Hopalong, truly – many of us do it, all the time! Your courage is growing daily I think. It’s wonderful. When maybe you don’t feel so strong in 3D life, imagine we’re there with you supporting you. I’m repeating an old idea there but I think it’s okay to repeat good stuff. It doesn’t go out of fashion. :D
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thanks, P. Pile it on! I'm there. You can't "do" a group hug anyway, you can only ask for one.
You know, I think part of my little detour into insecurity was that I sensed people were unhappy and/or pulling away.
Therefore, my brain went right straight into: AAACCCKKKK! I have to fix this, right?
Either that or it must be my fault! (Probably fear of abandonment or something.)
Hmmm. Good lord that stuff's hardwired, sometimes.
(I lied, too. I wasn't actually making cookies.)
Meanwhile I have been (close your eyes, ear reader, if you don't like gross medical stuff) prepping for a screening colonoscopy for the last day and I'm dehydrated hungry and weak and ... drumroll...
POOPED OUT.
:lol:
Hopalong
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And thanks H & H...I really appreciated those words.
Hops
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Oh Hop. Take care and I hope everything is okay. Is it imminent? Lots of good wishes winging across to you. ((((((Hopalong))))))
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I'm fine, really. Just milking it for all it's worth.
It's just a routine screening you're supposed to have when you turn 50 and I avoided it because it's gross. But I figure I'd better get it done now while my job will cover it...
It's really not so bad. (They dope you up so much everybody says it's painless. The yucky part's bhind me already.) The procedure's this afternoon and then I get to eat like a pig.
:lol:
Hops
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Is it imminent?
Gosh, I sure hope so! :lol: Not the kind of procedure one wants to drag on for days.
Good for you to be doing this Hoppy. Very necessary at our age. I had it done last year and thought it would be a walk in the park having watched other friends have it done. Unfortunately, I reacted badly to the anesthesia and was throwing up the night after the procedure, when I was really hoping to have a steak dinner. Oh well, nothing serious found and that's the main thing.
I am sending good wishes for a clear screening and for you to be enjoying a wonderful meal tonight.
Brigid
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Hey (((Write))),
Wot's pinging? Is that like triggering, etc?
(Heck, if you were a pinger I think I still get to be responsible for deciding to be a pingee, whatever it is.)
:)
Hops
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Thanks, Brigid!
I think I'll be just fine.
Been eating a lot of rabbity food for ages.
Hops
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Hiya Hop :D
I respect you for just sharing and showing your concern for how other people feel. Something an N could care less about.
Lots of hugs for you!!!! : :D
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Wot's pinging?
I guess when people have the same thoughts simultaneously sort-of thing.
In a group I will often be the one who says what everyone's thinking and no one wants to hear!
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Best wishes Hopalong. Shall I buy you a cushion? I'm going shopping so I just might.... hope it goes okay. See you later.
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Hi Hoppy,
I hope I'm not throwing a wet blanket on your thread with this suggestion but I do have one. And hope I am making it in the spirit of that Peckism that bean posted earlier.
I don't believe it has anything to do with Nism and it really is directed to everyone here of any particular stripe, not you.
Could we all try to curtail the judgemental comments about politics and religion somewhat? There has been a lull lately, but frequently certain threads devolve into partisan posts about the evils of this or that organized religion or religious figure or this or that politician, political belief or society. I seldom respond because I fear the board will descend into a rancorous debate over issues that have little or nothing to do with the purpose of this board. I may think Bill and Hillary are two NPDs in a pod and others may think George Bush is a sociopath, but aren't there, at a conservative estimate, about two kajillion other websites to discuss those paticular issues, while there is about one decent one to discuss Ns and their effect on our lives?
I find that I censor myself to avoid tangential conflicts and I know a few other people who curtail their participation because they don't want to ignite a flamethrower war. The unfortunate fact is it is often very difficult to contain the passions involved in political and religious debates, even among friends.
I don't know if I'm alone in this view but I'm tossing it out there nonetheless.
As to you personally Hoppy, I don't see any N characteristics in you whatsoever.
mud
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Mud, okay, I hear you. I won't mention cartoons again. Not that I think you mean me, but I mean me, in that instance.
I did wrong. :(
Happy to say so, and thanks for the heads up. :D
How about no more quotes from religious texts either please? Would that be okay?.....or am I asking too much? Maybe? Or am I? Not sure. Tricky. Thoughts?
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Portia,
In some type of reasonable context, I don't find occasional religious quotes from Buddha, Jesus or Mohammed incendiary. I wouldn't find atheistic texts by Bertrand Russell or Jean Paul Sartre offensive either. Nor do I find discussions of astrology or New Age concepts disturbing the peace. I don't see how any person of goodwill would.
What lowers the bar of discussion is demonizing particular people and viewpoints unrelated or only very tenuously related to Ns. If I and others were to routinely make the same kind of inflammatory comments regarding left wing politicians, atheists, and others that I see regarding their opposites the board would soon descend into a useless maelstrom of invective.
I'm not sure of your reference to cartoons as I don't recall you discussing any. If you are equating my call for avoiding perilous tangential subjects for the benfit of the continued usefulness of the board to the recent calls for violence against the Danish cartoonists then I guess that is precisely the kind of inflammatory post I'm talking about. If you are referring to something else then I am at a loss as to your reference.
I am simply asking that potentially incendiary comments or subjects be toned down or avoided to attempt to prevent this board from becoming like so many other cyber shouting matches. I am not asking that any comments that might possibly make someone slightly uncomfortable be stopped. I'm sure we all read comments all the time here that we disagree with. But surely reasonable people can agree that there is a difference between equating some living politician with the antichrist quoting the Buddha.
If you can provide evidence that the infrequent invocation of some religious text has led to a shouting match (Cosmic Joe excepted) then I might consider your request. If not then you just seem to be arguing for the sake of argument.
mud
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Hi Mud...another quickie
I'm not sure of your reference to cartoons as I don't recall you discussing any.
I did mention them (yes you're correct about which cartoons). I mentioned them in passing in a post. Easy to miss though as it was an aside. I shouldn't do it though as it's an invite to discuss it and this ain't the place. i agree with you there.
If not then you just seem to be arguing for the sake of argument.
I'm not arguing am I? Am I? ...... I didn't think I was. I was asking a question...?
Sorry but now I'm lost. i think maybe something in particular has affected you Mud. I'd rather know what that is (if there is something) than talk in generalities. I don't read all the threads so i could well be in the dark here.
Is there something? You can PM me if you wish. invite me to a thread I haven't read! No worries there. take care...Portia
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Portia,
I meant argument in the sense that a lawyer argues a case not in the sense of a heated discussion.
mud
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Hey MudNo wet blanket at all. I respect your opinions, Mud. I think it's okay to reveal one's political or religious stripes in passing, as for so many people they're woven in to the rest of their thinking. Like your beautiful view of marriage is woven in to who you are. We don't always have those things in separate boxes.
I agree it would be a real shame for differences of opinion to devolve into demonizing anybody. My spirituality--faith and doubts too--and even political thoughts are part of me. Sometimes they're restrained and sometimes passionate, but I would never intend to harm others by speaking. I want us whole and inclusive too.
This is a wonderfully varied and inclusive community on this board, as I've experienced it. Respectful and generous too. I think we sometimes "act out" boundary issues a little, but that's part of the healing from N stuff, I figure...
(Imho, rather than "setting policy" for all that someone could trip up on or forget in the throes of a worked-up moment, imho it'd be better to voice it yourself when someone strays into sore turf, and say hey, just a reminder that there are other worldviews here, too, and thiis one's a sensitive area for me....sumpin like that.)
Hear, hear on this--
aren't there, at a conservative estimate, about two kajillion other websites to discuss those paticular issues, while there is about one decent one to discuss Ns and their effect on our lives?
. Dittoes.
Thanks for the reminder to be respectful and remember our diversity.
Hopalong
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Hi Hoppy,
(Imho, rather than "setting policy" for all that someone could trip up on or forget in the throes of a worked-up moment, imho it'd be better to voice it yourself when someone strays into sore turf, and say hey, just a reminder that there are other worldviews here, too, and thiis one's a sensitive area for me....sumpin like that.)
That's a good suggestion. Its probably a more workable system than my suggestion of guessing about what offends others.
Next time I'll give it a try.
And if the #$%$#!#@$#&* doesn't shut up I'll *#%$^&%&**&$ them until they do. :P
mud
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Mudpuppy:
frequently certain threads devolve into partisan posts about the evils of this or that
Mud, as someone who started one of those what is evil threads and used R as an example of vil incarnated that ignited you way back, I will say this:
(a) When I wrote that R*****d was probably evil, I had no idea that it could make someone so angry, upset, whatever was the emotion you felt. I mean, I would be able to handle it if my political icons were mocked at, hence I thought that so can others.
(b) At the time, when you protested, I thought that it was just a political debate and you just wanted to gain an upper hand at politics, now that I know you better, I see that it is about your deeply seated beliefs and things that truly matter to you. So I will respect that, even if I don't agree with that.
(d) Mud, I promise not to demonize R or B or GWB or whoever, as I would not want to hurt feelings of my favorite Mud brother. I hope its OK with all if we demonize Saddam, we do need some symbols after all. :P This resolution of conflict we had way back would have NEVER happened if you and had tried to thrash out our conflicts back then, nor would I have developed a friendship with you if we had concentrated on what we didn't have in common, rather than what we do have in common. I think conflicts are resolved not by shouting from the rooftop that you are sob or #%&@$ or whatever, but by developing a relationship of genuine respect and trust for the other person and their positions. Not each and every member of the board have this type of relationship with each other, it is silly to imagine that. In such cases, rather than promoting acrimony in name of our holy cow, communication, I think it is best to disengage.
(e) I totally agree with Mud that there are a gazillion other places to discuss politics etc., so why bring it over to this board? Hurricane Caterina discussion was very traumatic for almost all of us. There was also a major fallout from that. One of my most favorite members, whose sole form of support is this board which she valued greatly, vanished because she felt attacked and was deeply hurt. It is a great loss to her, to me, and to the board. This is just one example. Do we really believe that we truly gained anything significant from that discussion that would counter such losses? Or if Caterina were to happen all over again, we would not have EXACTLY the same views?
(f) Having said that, I don't think that there is any way to ban what is discussed on this message board and what is not. The only way we can regulate the flow of what is discussed here is by making an active decision to not participate in any discussions that we don't find fruitful, refraining from responding to flames and bait, like a bus that passes through the board, but we, at least those of us who feel that these discussions are not fruitful, don't climb on it. The most powerful aspect of gaining a voice is to knowing when to remain silent.
(g) Every community has its buzz word which are used to bully its members into doing things they don't want to do. I was reading Ambivalent Zen by Shainberg in which he recalls how he was constantly badgered into lending his car, his possessions because the buzz word for Buddhism is selflessness. Similarly, the buzzword for our board is communication, so more or less any kind of abusive rant is tolerated here, even validated, as it is done in the name of a genuine desire to communicate. What does Dr. Grossman do when a thread gets too ugly? Does he say, hey guys, here, take more room and thrash it out? No. He locks it. Similarly, just as he makes this decision for the entire board, we must make that decision for ourselves as individuals. Each of us must have our own self-censorship where we "lock" ourselves out of a discussion and say that I will not participate if discussion degenerates to this level.
I think we sometimes "act out" boundary issues a little, but that's part of the healing from N stuff, I figure...
Hop, sorry, I disagree with the second part of your statement. I see the very same dramas staged by some of the same members albeit with different partners from the board. It is more like some people being stuck in the same issues and the board enabling such behavior in name of our favorite buzz word, communication, which prevents true healing. Some problems ought to be worked on from within, not without.
Hoppy, keep posting those poems! :lol:
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Hi Mud
If you are equating my call for avoiding perilous tangential subjects for the benfit of the continued usefulness of the board to the recent calls for violence against the Danish cartoonists then I guess that is precisely the kind of inflammatory post I'm talking about.
Just want to let you know this upset me. I don’t understand how you can think that I would do that in such a complex backhanded way. I think I am simply not that mean or covert and I think I try to be straight and honest. I feel misunderstood and a bit bashed by that.
I’m not a lawyer, I’m a philosopher, Liverpool University 1984. I don’t argue to win a case, I argue to reach some sort of understanding of different viewpoints. Maybe even facts or truth where facts are involved. If someone is plain wrong in their facts, I’ll say so if it’s appropriate (as I see it). Maybe if it’s clearly an intellectual point, I’ll sound points-scory? But it’s not to ‘win’, it’s to get to the truth, if the truth exists.
I wasn’t arguing anything about the religious text stuff. I was (badly) raising something that annoys me. It sometimes (not all times) plain annoys me. I feel excluded and I get an emotional reaction to some texts. It’s not for sport or fun, it’s because I don’t like it. My problem. But I do have genuine strong feelings and thoughts and I can be hurt.
Hope I’ve stated my stuff so that I can be understood Mud. I want to be understood.
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Marta;
I hope its OK with all if we demonize Saddam, we do need some symbols after all.
I disagree.
One of my most favorite members, whose sole form of support is this board which she valued greatly, vanished because she felt attacked and was deeply hurt. It is a great loss to her, to me, and to the board.
You know all this for a fact Marta? That this board was her sole form of support? That she’s vanished and not perhaps returned under a different name? Your words above make me angry Marta. I’m not ‘playing’ for ‘sport’ here. I’m not posting to ‘win’ or have a ‘discussion’. I’m telling you I’m angry. I read your words and I get angry. Want me to explain?
The most powerful aspect of gaining a voice is to knowing when to remain silent.
Yeah right. I’m crap at that. :P Just look at me now. I totally disagree that this is the most powerful aspect of gaining a voice. That’s a fact is it? Or is that your opinion?
What does Dr. Grossman do when a thread gets too ugly? Does he say, hey guys, here, take more room and thrash it out? No. He locks it.
I see Dr G doing that as my safety valve. Thanks goodness for Dr G. 8) I might need him soon.
Similarly, just as he makes this decision for the entire board, we must make that decision for ourselves as individuals. Each of us must have our own self-censorship where we "lock" ourselves out of a discussion and say that I will not participate if discussion degenerates to this level.
Marta I’m going to say what I think of your words above and it’s not very complimentary.
We don’t ‘lock’ ourselves out of a discussion because we “will not participate if discussion degenerates to this level.”
What exactly are you saying Marta? That if you don’t want to participate in a “discussion” it must have degenerated down to a crap level? Because you’re always ‘right’ and the others are ‘wrong’? Because you’re superior to others who say stuff you think is below you? Is that what you’re saying?
If not, what exactly are you saying?
Oh why not look at some more, while I’m here, heck I'm hooked in and I almost hate myself for it:
I see the very same dramas staged by some of the same members albeit with different partners from the board. It is more like some people being stuck in the same issues and the board enabling such behavior in name of our favorite buzz word, communication, which prevents true healing. Some problems ought to be worked on from within, not without.
Your opinion Marta. Not facts, not truth, just your opinion. And I totally disagree with you.
Sorry folks. :( I am so angry. :evil: But I’m fine of course. :| I can handle my anger and stuff, no worries.
No doubt I’ve caused this discussion to degenerate. :lol:
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Marta, this is to clarify my position and reasons for posting.
I’m not bothered about whether you engage with me or not. Your choice. If you do, I’ll talk. No problems either way. Do what you want in that respect.
I learned my lesson about making statements about other people without any hard facts. Maybe you remember me doing that, posting delusions as fact.
I have responded to you to state the truth – reality - as I see it.
I think you state many opinions and possibly you do believe them to be facts; you state them as though they are facts.
They are your opinions and I don’t agree with you.
Whether you engage with me or not, I will continue to state my reality against your opinions.
Knowing what is reality is important to everyone here.
Knowing reality helps us to get better – and that is a fact, according to psychologists and therapists.
I’d quote the books but I don’t see the point. This isn’t a competition.
This is about a healthy board, in my opinion.
I'm done.
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Mud, Portia, and Marta - Although I like a lively debate, I agree that this is not the right place for politics. At the same time, state your opinion and if you don't like the thread, stay off it. I do not agree with demonizing Saddam either - that is politics IMO
What I adamently disagree with is TONE. Mud, although I respect what you have to say, I take offense to the way it was said. If you're angry...say it. if you're fed up...say it. I found your posts sarcastic, condeming, judgemental of others and at times bullying (which IMO is a BIGGER trigger on this board b/c of the people we have dealt with). I also found a superiority in it that was disturbing to me.
reasonable context, I don't see how any person of goodwill would. What lowers the bar of discussion ...same kind of inflammatory comments ...the board would soon descend into a useless maelstrom of invective. certain threads devolve into partisan But surely reasonable people can agree that there is a difference between equating some living politician with the antichrist quoting the Buddha. If not then you just seem to be arguing for the sake of argument.
Who is to say what is reasonable, what is goodwill, what lowers the bar etc.? What is useless to you may in fact be useful to others.
Opinion does not equal truth...it's only YOUR truth. I am not saying that everyone should just agree. I respect each individual's right to RESPECTFULLY disagree.
Mud - I say this b/c, again, I respect your wisdom and believe intimacy can only be created when we call each other on our "stuff".
Movinon
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Anger's soooo hard.
I know cookies don't fix it. (Baking, baking...)
I think of every single person who's commented in this rough spot...every one...as a valuable, good, worthwhile, and well-intentioned person. I have learned, been lifted, prodded to thought, comforted, or even been ratttled...but never, I feel, intentionally hurt.
Tone can be a very unconscious thing. For me anyway, I'm often just not seeing how I'm sounding.
I think blaming and shaming is something to be aware of too. Challenging can feel friendly, or it can feel aggressive. Sometimes on "paper" it's hard to tell the difference.
Sometimes a person might be expressing things in a certain way because of a hurt place within them. Sometimes we might take it personally and have an adrenalin response. It might even be just a cat in a mood or with a sore paw, but we might think it's a saber-toothed tiger.
I hope we can let scratches just be scratches, send love to each other (in all directions) for them to heal.
Because we only have words here, sometimes we can be highly sensitized to "typed tone"...even more than we might be in person, when a facial expression, or a tone of voice, or a look--might clue us in that the person perhaps has a faraway or sad look, as though perhaps they're not really responding onlyto us, or to what we've said specifically in the present, but to an old injury that we've unwittingly bumped into, or that something in their current life is causing them to struggle with. We might be more forgiving then, less quick to take offense.
Just some thoughts, sent with ((((((((((((((everybody)))))))))))))))))
Hops
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Anger's soooo hard.
I know cookies don't fix it. (Baking, baking...)
I think of every single person who's commented in this rough spot...every one...as a valuable, good, worthwhile, and well-intentioned person. I have learned, been lifted, prodded to thought, comforted, or even been ratttled...but never, I feel, intentionally hurt.
Tone can be a very unconscious thing. For me anyway, I'm often just not seeing how I'm sounding.
I think blaming and shaming is something to be aware of too. Challenging can feel friendly, or it can feel aggressive. Sometimes on "paper" it's hard to tell the difference.
Sometimes a person might be expressing things in a certain way because of a hurt place within them. Sometimes we might take it personally and have an adrenalin response. It might even be just a cat in a mood or with a sore paw, but we might think it's a saber-toothed tiger.
I hope we can let scratches just be scratches, send love to each other (in all directions) for them to heal.
Because we only have words here, sometimes we can be highly sensitized to "typed tone"...even more than we might be in person, when a facial expression, or a tone of voice, or a look--might clue us in that the person perhaps has a faraway or sad look, as though perhaps they're not really responding onlyto us, or to what we've said specifically in the present, but to an old injury that we've unwittingly bumped into, or that something in their current life is causing them to struggle with. We might be more forgiving then, less quick to take offense.
Just some thoughts, sent with ((((((((((((((everybody)))))))))))))))))
Hops
Hear hear Hoppy (((((((((((((((((Everybody)))))))))))))))))))))))
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HI guys,
In respose to my post, I don't recall saying I was angry. You may not have been talking about me and if not please disregard. I find in the process of healing and learning not to be a victim, I must learn to speak my truth. I realize it may not be the most popular thing to do and be uncomfortable for some, but this is my work. :wink:
Movinon
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Hiya Hopalong, how are you today? I bought ya a cushion? Nice purple velvet with embroidery. Just cuddling up before I disagree, can I say that? I’m a bit tra la la mixed with bumpityserious. Honestly. Hope you are okay. I got serious things to say and I don’t want to hurt you. Here goes:
Sometimes a person might be expressing things in a certain way because of a hurt place within them. Sometimes we might take it personally and have an adrenalin response.
Yes and yep an a thousand yesses. There’s a but (no jokes about my posterior). But!
Sometimes hurt people can hurt other people.
Sometimes it is personal – someone does actually want to attack someone else.
Being hurt and in pain is not an excuse for abusive behaviour. It’s an explanation for the behaviour, not an excuse.
I have been abusive in the past here. I have been hounded and been subjected to the most awful of treatment in my opinion. Stuff I would not do to someone else. It wasn’t honest and truth-telling; it was abusive. I learned from that. Harsh lesson.
I would rather speak the truth and state my reality. I’m not looking to punish or hound or hurt. I’m looking for clarity and reality. If reality hurts, reality hurts.
I can wish people to get better but my wishing it won’t make it happen. I do wish people to get better but I doubt some people would believe that. We all get better by facing the truth, preferably with someone who supports us and witnesses our pain.
I’m not angry with you Hops but I’d like you to understand the points because it might be important for you? I don’t know, I’m guessing.
Take care. and thank you for posting :D
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Well looks like I opened a can of worms again.
Portia,
I had no idea what your reference to cartoons was. I was unsure whether you were making a straight forward point or whether you were upset with my post and making a sarcastic comment. I didn't think you were being complex and backhanded. I thought maybe you were just being a wise guy. I was simply saying if you were being sarcastic that it was an example of the kind of post I was referring to. I didn't say you were being sarcastic. You say you weren't so that is good enough for me. Simply a misunderstanding.
Ar-gu-ment, n. a reason or reasons offered for or against something. That is the sense in which I used the word. I didn't mean to insult you by implying you were a lawyer. :P
I'm sorry that references to God annoy you. However the thrust of my post was not that no one can say anything that might annoy someone else. The point I was expressing was two fold. A request that people be sensitive toward the tone of their posts. And especiially the tone regarding posts that have little or nothing to do with the point of this board. People say lots of things on here that annoy me. Those are not the things I was talking about. If you want to feel excluded maybe you should try being a man on this board. :P :? I also feel excluded from the vast majority of the threads here because I didn't have N parents nor have I been married to one. But I don't expect everyone to include me in the conversation. My suggestion was not that no one say anything that annoys someone else, or that we all sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya, but that we take into account a little more carefully others positions and attitudes before we post something potentially inflammatory.
I'm not sure why the difference between those two thoughts is hard to see and I'm not sure why a call for voluntary consideration for others is greeted with hostility. I never mentioned banning anything, nor coercion, nor censoring others.
movinon,
I'm not sure what I said that would give you your impressions of my 'tone'. I don't believe I bullyed anyone, and I don't recall being sarcastic, or condemning anyone. I asked precisely what you asked; that people be RESPECTFUL. I also asked that people consider voluntarily skirting certain issues. Why should that push anyone's buttons?
I'm not angry, nor am I upset. I see an area on the board that I believe could use some attention and I called attention to it. Some of the responses have been angry and upset and I'm actually kind of confused as to why. I don't see why I am being disagreed with in such a hostile manner. It doesn't seem particularly RESPECTFUL to call me judgemental, a bully, condemning etc. In fact its kind of judgemental itself isn't it?
I just went back and reread my posts and while I see many things that someone might disagree with I don't see any of the 'tones' you are attributing to me. Where's the 'stuff'?
Marta,
Glad you reminded me of that previous thread. I guess I never learn. That one went just about the same way as this one now that I remember it. I think my conclusion was then the same as now. Ignore what I said, forget all about it. I said my piece if no one agrees, tough noogies. I may go or come as I please.
I do want to clear up two things.
1) Who the heck is R? Reagan?
2) I don't actually have any political icons that come to mind other than maybe Adam Smith or James Madison or Edmund Burke and I don't recall any of them getting the flame broiled treatment here. :P Its not about insulting or mocking icons, its about disrespecting rather than simply disagreeing with another person's viewpoint. I wouldn't even care in the slightest if politics were discussed all day long here if it stayed on the level of a discussion of viewpoints but lets face it, on the internet especially, political discussions usually descend to the gutter in short order.
Its not even a matter of being offended. It is the knowledge of what the board would descend to if people responded in kind to some very strong remarks. I have to say its been kind of tempting, previously, to prove my point by using a different name and jumping into some of the threads and using the same kind of language to describe the opposite point of view. The result would very soon be a bunch of locked threads and a much less useful (there's that word again) board full of animosity and factions.
I'm not against communication and I'm not against the strategy of disengagement. I'm just asking for the sake of the board and each other that we choose our posts carefully.
Its a free cyber world if some people want to listen to me fine, if not that's fine too. I've said it before and I'll say it again, C'est la vie.
mud
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Hiya Mud - The tone may be totally my stuff and if it doesn't fit for you or no one's ever commented on that before, please feel free to dismiss it.
I agree that my description of your post was judgemental (again may be a trigger to my stuff - yep, my ex is very sarcastic and superior using complex words) There you go - thanks for the light bulb moment.
In your post I picked up on words like useless, reasonable (2x), etc. that I quoted. Those are in fact judgement words and are not based in fact. I see a fact as something that can be scientifically proven and judgements as people's opinions ususally based on some pre-conceived notion.
Please note also that I did not call YOU judgemental and condemning, I don't really know you. I was commenting on the TONE I picked up on based on the judgements of what's "right" and "wrong" (which is a whole other discussion).
I honor you for being a man on this board and not backing down. I think there is always room for respect and still disagreement. To illustrate, I posted a comment on bean's thread about siblings and a few members (you included) posted saying the opposite (diagreeing, in essence) with what I had to say. I felt angry and devalued. After taking some time to think about it, I noticed I was wanting validation and to have everyone see my view as "right" - jeez what a slippery slope!
After I got over my pouting, I was able to come back to the board. I know that my ego can sometimes run amock(sp) and I pray for humility daily.
Movinon
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Mud, I feel this is a very serious and important thread, my opinion.
I said I felt bashed by you. I said I was upset. That means hurt.
I was unsure whether you were making a straight forward point or whether you were upset with my post and making a sarcastic comment. I didn't think you were being complex and backhanded. I thought maybe you were just being a wise guy. I was simply saying if you were being sarcastic that it was an example of the kind of post I was referring to. I didn't say you were being sarcastic. You say you weren't so that is good enough for me. Simply a misunderstanding.
Can you say sorry for thinking I was being sarcastic please? Can you say just maybe you were wrong about me?
I am not a sarcastic person. Maybe you didn’t know that. I am honest and truthful and straightforward, mostly (hey I’m not perfect).
I was hurt that you could think I might be being sarcastic. What’s a wise guy anyway? Being sarcastic?
Can’t we just say what we really think and feel?
I still feel hurt. I thought we were okay. Now I learn that you apparently don’t see me as honest and straightforward. You think I’m manipulative, that I want to hurt? That's what sarcasm is to me. Destructive.
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Movinon:
What I adamently disagree with is TONE.
I have often heard remarks of this nature about tone on the board, so I want to address that. This almost seems like saying someone should speak with someone else's voice instead of his/her own voice. Asking someone to change the tone of their voice is like asking them to change their skin. My solution is to stay away from folks whose tone I don't like, and suggest that those who don't like my tone to stay away from me. Often, once you get to know a person, you'll like them and get used to the tone, as you realize that its not intentionally hurtful, it stops bothering.
Movinon:
believe intimacy can only be created when we call each other on our "stuff".
I disagree with this one BIG time. Intimacy on a message board is not the same as intimacy in a marriage, or with friends. Its fine if my friends on board or members I share a good relationship with call on my "stuff," because I trust them and know that if they are doing it, it is out of goodwill. That feels safe. But when it comes from someone I don't know very well, it feels like a violation. Also in "calling stuff" lies the danger of projecting our own problems on to others. More often than not, in cyberspace people seem to take a license to be abusive under the pretext of calling stuff and projecting their own stuff. Movinon, please note my friend that this is a general comment, not referring to you at all.
posted saying the opposite (diagreeing, in essence) with what I had to say. I felt angry and devalued. After taking some time to think about it, I noticed I was wanting validation and to have everyone see my view as "right" - jeez what a slippery slo
Movinon, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't like you! I like you, quite a lot! :D
Mud:
1) Who the heck is R? Reagan?
Nawwww. Reagan was not evil. Rumsfeld is evil, that's what I had said. Now this time you asked.... :P
But wait, I have a question. Let's say we are discussing evil and Ns in public life, which is what I was doing in that previous thread. Why is it wrong to pick some public figures, and present them as examples of evil? Would it bother you as much if I said that bin Laden were evil? I mean, if evil exists, then we have to identify and pinpoint it in our world, otherwise it just becomes a useless concept devoid of meaning.
Mud:
If you want to feel excluded maybe you should try being a man on this board.
I think that this is very true. A lot of objections you are fielding about tone are because of that.
Hoppy, I agree with a lot of what you said.
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Marta - I respect your perogative to disagree with me- big time or not.
I hear you say that addressing tone seems to you like I may be asking someone to speak w/ someone else's voice. Not at all. When I want to be careful about my tone, I try to watch my judgements and avoid words like "should", "right", AND USE "I" STATEMENTS. It's very hard, if not impossible to figure out what others are feeling or where they're coming from. That's why I find "I statements" so useful when energy is getting high. I say what has worked for me or not and then others get to decide if it fits for them. Hopefully, that avoids assigning blame or projection,
As far the intimacy bit, I hear it feels safe for you to have friends or family call you on your stuff, but does not feel safe. I will respect that and try to stay away from calling you on it. Additonally, I usually know when others are projecting their stuff onto me and choose not to take that on. I also know that when I depend on others to define my safety, I'm in BIIIIIIIGGGG trouble! I create my own safety as only I can do. It is up to me to tell others what feels safe or not (boundaries). Whether they adhere to them or not is another story.....
And thanks for saying you like me - I like you too Now THAT was totally my rejection stuff. I own that
Movinon
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Hiya all
Apologies for butting in here, but I just wanted to reply to what was being said about tone in general.
How do we know what tone is being used by the person posting? We can't hear them, we can't see their facial expressions. I feel that it is only how we perceive the tone for what is being posted, sometimes accurately, sometimes not.
There are many varying opinions here, all which I have found interesting. But I don't like to see people upset, angry or hurt, which I appreciate is inevitable and life isn't a fairytale.
With message boards I'm a firm believer in take what you need, give what you can and leave the rest.
Take care all
H&H xx
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Hi movinon,
Wait just a minute. I only said I didn't see sarcasm or bullying in the posts in this thread. I have acknowledged many times that I can be a smart ass and sarcastic. I'm not a bully but I can be judgemental. I just didn't think I was in this thread.
Marta,
The problem with Ns and public life is how do we know who an N is? Vunil and I PMed awhile back on this. To her W is self evidently an N or worse, while Bill Clinton is a fine upstanding citizen. To me Bush is many things but an N is not one of them, while Clinton would be my cover boy were I ever to write "Important NPDs of the Twentieth Century." We actually have very little knowledge of these people's true personalities and are usually in danger of projecting our political beliefs into personality defects in those who disagree, especially the leaders of opposing camps.
It is highly unlikely that someone's political or religious values would be disrespected here should UBL or Stalin or Hitler be used as an example of an N, because thankfully there are few if any jihadists, Stalinists or Nazis here. But in more mainstream figures, one person's incontrovertible evidence of evil and Nisn may very well be admirable traits to someone else.
When some person whom I agree with is called wrong, I can argue that they are not wrong because of A, B or C. If someone is called evil because of beliefs or actions I agree with then he, and by extension I, are not good people who are simply wrong, but bad people with dishonorable motives and dishonest tactics. It then is no longer a matter of saying I am not wrong because of A, B or C. It has become a version of 'when did you stop beating your wife.' And the tendency when we are called evil by extension is for rational discussion to fly out the window.
One other thing. Labelling someone as evil or crazy is often resorted to when making the case for our position is proving impossible or just too much trouble. Why engage in ideas when it is so much easier to paint someone with a slur and short circuit the whole process of reason, expecially if that person has a pretty good case we don't want to hear?
Portia,
I'm not sure how to approach this. I think you may ascribe more baggage to sarcasm than I do. To me it is merely being a smart ass. It can be perfectly innocent or perfectly vindictive. And you have on occasion been a smart ass, as have I, as has everyone I've ever met. Sarcasm is not necessarily destructive. It can often be very helpful. It can let us know when we are acting like a horses ass. If you were being sarcastic I assumed it was to let me know I was not making a valid point or had holes in my argument. I consider it a pretty useful rhetorical device that can easily be misapplied.
It was not the suspected sarcasm per se that was the problem but rather the subject of what I thought you might be referring to, ie; equating my post with the jihadist's reaction to those cartoons. If it was sarcastic I assumed it to be simply a joke that I didn't like, not some complex foul deed. I now see that it wasn't sarcastic at all. But if you'll reread what I said, I never said it was; I asked you to explain whether it was. You have and I accept your explanation.
I do not intend to invalidate your feelings. But I do not understand how asking you if you were making a sarcastic joke that fell flat is bashing you. I'm torn between apologizing for thinkiing you might have been sarcastic and not. If I do it will not be a genuine apology. Frankly I believe every person is capable of being sarcastic, so if I apologize for thinking you might have been then I will have to issue a blanket apology to the entire planet. Is there a person alive who hasn't said 'smooth move' or 'what was your first clue, Sherlock' or 'yeah, right'? And I don't think saying those things makes anyone not honest or straightforward. It makes them the occasional smart ass which incidentally is the same as a wise guy.
I will and do apologize if I inadveretantly caused you distress. I did not mean to. I was merely seeking to understand your position. But inadvertant pain is still pain. So you have my apologies for any pain anything I said may have caused you.
mud
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Hi all,
This has brought up something for me that I found very intersting and I will write in generalities for a moment. As women, we are often taught to be "nice" at all costs, not to rock the boat, keep the peace and other assorted bulls#*it. I have found this leads to HUGE minimizing. That's what got ME in trouble in the first place. I was nice, didn't want to believe that others were capable of "bad" stuff.
I have been working exclusively with women and women's empowerment now for 3 years straight in both the US and the UK and see this pattern over and over again. It amazes me how women react to these emotions. Some go from "uncomfortable" to downright terrorized and paniced.
H&H - I hear you don't like to see or hear people get upset, angry or hurt, but people do. You can choose not to take that on and not to be the peacemaker (if you ever do).
I dream of living in a society where women can hold their own with men in a respectful manner without being scared and constantly backing down. Why are we so afraid to have someone not like us? If I seem to have a lot of energy around this, I do. I see women LITERALLY fighting for their lives everyday b/c they are living under the old "girls should play nice" rules thrust upon them by a generation that thought women should not vote, work, or have their voices. :x
Movinon
Respectfully
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Hi Mud
Just read your post. Can you say more about sarcasm? I saw that you wrote it could be innocent. This is very intersting to me as I guess I've never looked at it this way.
Do you see sarcasm and a smart ass as the same?
Movinon
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Do you see sarcasm and a smart ass as the same?
Yeah, pretty much. Sarcasm to me can range from harmless irony with a humorous intent through a casual warning to vicious rotten venom.
If somebody almost tips over backwards in a chair and I say 'smooth move ace' that's pretty harmless sarcasm.
If my daughter goes running through the kitchen and I ask her where the fire is that's a gentle warning to cool it.
If someone's child fails a test and is devastated and their parent tells them 'good job genius' that is hurtful, ugly and meant to harm.
Maybe some people don't consider the milder examples sarcasm. Maybe they're right. The root of the word I think means to rip the flesh, so originally it related to severe, ironic remarks. But it seems to have expanded its meaning somewhat, at least to me it has.
mud
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H&H:
With message boards I'm a firm believer in take what you need, give what you can and leave the rest
H&H, golden words, couldn't agree with you more! It is silly to pretend that we are a family, whatever, which is what I hear often on the board. We are not a family, but we are a community, and a very fine one at that. Some of us connect, others don't. Its one thing to make repeated efforts at connecting with my mother, and I doubt wisdom of even that, and quite another to keep trying to connect someone with whom I feel no connection on this board, as I see is often urged. Or sometimes when an argument is resulting in no real exchange of ideas or support and I have nothing further to say, I like to disengage. Sometimes it may feel like invalidation to the other party, but it is not meant to be that, it is really just self-preservation and best possible use of my time/attention.
Live and let live.
Mud:
It is highly unlikely that someone's political or religious values would be disrespected here should UBL or Stalin or Hitler be used as an example of an N, because thankfully there are few if any jihadists, Stalinists or Nazis here. But in more mainstream figures, one person's incontrovertible evidence of evil and Nisn may very well be admirable traits to someone else.
Nice, Mud. Very nicely articulated. I see what you are getting at. Now you have my full cooperation to your proposition in this respect of not demonizing public figures, because this is not a political board.
While we are discussing this matter of what is said on the board, there is one more thing I've been wanting to say for a long time. It is about how we communicate with people who come up here who are suicidal, as it so happens every now and then. I often hear them told that come here, post often, it is a great community, etc. etc. What usually happens is that very soon after that, they hear something that triggers them and makes them feel attacked, discounted, you name it, by some very innocuous remarks. And they leave, with one more bruise on their heart. Ours is a support board, not a suicide intervention hot line or a therapy board, hence we lack the skills that are so necessary in saying the right things that will help them. I see our job with to present ourselves with as much kindness and support as we can, without trying to adminster therapy or see how they are projecting etc. Encourage them to find a therapist or support as soon as possible. Whatever our personal ambivalence about therapy may be, a therapist is absolutely necessary for those who are in danger of suicide. My two cents.
Marta
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Marta
While we are discussing this matter of what is said on the board, there is one more thing I've been wanting to say for a long time. It is about how we communicate with people who come up here who are suicidal, as it so happens every now and then. I often hear them told that come here, post often, it is a great community, etc. etc. What usually happens is that very soon after that, they hear something that triggers them and makes them feel attacked, discounted, you name it, by some very innocuous remarks. And they leave, with one more bruise on their heart.
How do you know all this for a fact?
Ours is a support board, not a suicide intervention hot line or a therapy board.
Are you deciding what ‘our’ board is Marta? I believe the board belongs to Dr Grossman. Yes we make it what it is, but it is not ‘ours’. And it is not within your power to decide what goes on here. If you want to change it or make rules about what happens here, I suggest you contact Dr Grossman.
I see our job with suicidal folks to present ourselves with as much kindness and support as we can, without trying to adminster therapy, BUT also encourage them to find a therapist or support as soon as possible. My two cents.
Fine. I shall do differently and I would encourage everyone here to do as they wish on this board. If we cross a line, I count on Dr Grossman to tell us. It’s his board.
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a nice cut and past job, Portia.
And very sympathetic. Of course why should your posts be sympathetic right? You can say what you want, can't you?
Fine. I shall do differently and I would encourage everyone here to do as they wish on this board
Can you see my point?
You're also giving what seems to be a caring post about things that do happen on the board from time to time an 'edge' when that is not necesary at all. Simila to a few other threads at the moment.
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Hi Mud thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. I’m gonna talk as seriously and clearly as I can. No jokes or anything else. Three pages in Word. You might want to get a coffee!
I'm not sure how to approach this. I think you may ascribe more baggage to sarcasm than I do. To me it is merely being a smart ass. It can be perfectly innocent or perfectly vindictive.
I used to be slightly sarcastic, long time ago, pre-board I think. But I talked about this with H last night because I really wanted another opinion. I asked him if he thought I was sarcastic or used sarcasm. He said I’m not a sarcastic person and that I don’t use sarcasm to hurt or wound others intentionally. I agreed with him when he said I do use sarcasm in relation to world events, politicians, the obvious non-ethical stuff that goes on and gets debated as though it’s some trivial thing. Like I’d say maybe “oh that ambassador, she/he really gets the point don’t they?” – meaning in fact the opposite, they don’t get the point at all imo. But that person is remote and in the media. They don’t get hurt by me saying that to H. But I don’t use it in personal interactions unless (and I added this, not him) unless I am really angry and losing it. And I haven’t done that for ages. Not sure how long but a long time.
And you have on occasion been a smart ass, as have I, as has everyone I've ever met.
I accept your perception of me there. I want to ask though: when have I been a ‘smart ass’ – meaning using sarcasm here? I really want to know Mud. Because just maybe, possibly, perhaps I haven’t been sarcastic but you perceived that I was being? Like on Jacmac’s thread about marriage. I said sorry and I was making a blanket statement. I meant that sincerely and seriously. Both the apology and the statement that I would reconsider my ideas. I liked you picking that up and said thank you. That was completely serious. When I said *groan* on that reply, it meant *groan, Portia’s going to write another three pages in Word, do we really want that, the mouthy old bat?*. That was being self-deprecating but I wonder what you thought it meant?
I think there's a big difference between sarcasm and genuine humour. I crack jokes but not to hurt.
My problem now is that I don’t know if you think I was being sarcastic. Do you see what I mean? I don’t know what you think of me and that is what hurts. I am honest and value that. I feel like my integrity – which I value above all else in life! – is being misunderstood, misinterpreted. When I wrote to you ages ago about your Cheerios dream – I spent a long time writing that and thinking about it and my reply to you was totally serious. But I thought (my perception) that you laughed my interpretation off. Maybe it made you uncomfortable? I don’t know. But I wonder now if you’ve taken a lot of what I’ve said as a kind of barb, a joke, a dig at you? I hate misunderstandings like this. This is why I was genuinely hurt yesterday. It hurts to be misunderstood with someone you think knows you, even if just a little. And thinking about us here, when we went for a religious debate and you put up Pascal’s wager for me, and I responded to it? That wasn’t me being sarcastic. That was me, as a genuine ‘suspended belief’ person, to attempt to understand what your faith means to you. To get to the stuff behind it. And I didn’t buy the wager. My response was entirely serious, based on my thinking, based on my view of life. Was that point-scoring? Sarcastic? Discussion for the sake of ‘winning’ or something? I must admit sometimes people in real life don’t take me seriously because I do have deeply-held convictions – about truth, freedom, the importance of child protection etc – and they think I’m being passionate to get a rise maybe, to get a response? I don’t know. Sometimes I say things and people laugh at my words. Maybe I’m too straightforward and it makes them uncomfortable. They might feel threatened by honesty? I think that’s what happens with me. I can live with it.
Sarcasm is not necessarily destructive. It can often be very helpful. It can let us know when we are acting like a horses ass. If you were being sarcastic I assumed it was to let me know I was not making a valid point or had holes in my argument. I consider it a pretty useful rhetorical device that can easily be misapplied.
If you want to you can look up verbally abusive stuff on the web. Sarcasm is usually a defence/attack technique. If I am acting like a horses ass, I prefer it if people say “You’re acting like a horses ass, stop it”. Then I know exactly what I’m doing and can change my behaviour. If they’re sarcastic, their meaning is cloaked, hidden. Imagine being sarcastic with a 3 year old child. Imagine the confusion we might cause the child. The same is true for adults I think. Fear and confusion.
It was not the suspected sarcasm per se that was the problem but rather the subject of what I thought you might be referring to, ie; equating my post with the jihadist's reaction to those cartoons.
But rather than post your reply as you did, why didn’t you just ask me straight? I would have been shocked and said “Blimey no Mud! I wouldn’t do that.” But the way you replied I felt attacked and misunderstood.
If it was sarcastic I assumed it to be simply a joke that I didn't like, not some complex foul deed.
If I had been doing that, I would consider it underhand and sneaky and downright rude. Disrespectful to you. Nasty stuff. Not funny.
I now see that it wasn't sarcastic at all. But if you'll reread what I said, I never said it was; I asked you to explain whether it was.
Mud, my perception is that you went into defence mode because you really thought the probability was that I was being underhand. And that made me sad for both of us.
You have and I accept your explanation. I do not intend to invalidate your feelings. But I do not understand how asking you if you were making a sarcastic joke that fell flat is bashing you. I'm torn between apologizing for thinkiing you might have been sarcastic and not. If I do it will not be a genuine apology.
I understand.
Frankly I believe every person is capable of being sarcastic, so if I apologize for thinking you might have been then I will have to issue a blanket apology to the entire planet.
Nope I don’t agree. I’m telling you I was hurt because I’m not like that and I thought you knew I wasn’t like that. Okay, I can agree that we’re all capable, especially when attacked or in anger. But I thought we understood each other a little. I think now maybe I’ve been wrong all along. That hurts of course – to think I’ve completely misinterpreted you. I feel stupid. I feel like I’ve made the same mistakes about you that I have about many other people. I thought you were kind and big-hearted and didn’t automatically think the worst of people. Now I’m not so sure? This to me is not saying ‘you are a bad person’ to you: this is about ‘can I trust perceptions of people? Can I trust my own judgment?’ – and that is a huge issue for many of us here. Can I trust myself and what I think about another person?
Is there a person alive who hasn't said 'smooth move' or 'what was your first clue, Sherlock' or 'yeah, right'? And I don't think saying those things makes anyone not honest or straightforward. It makes them the occasional smart ass which incidentally is the same as a wise guy.
I don’t say these sorts of things and I instinctively don’t like them. These phrases put the other person down. I really don’t like them and would only use them in scorn, anger or to someone I really didn’t like. Someone I didn’t want to know. Someone nasty. I tend these days to stay away from people like that so I don’t use those words. I also feel bad when I use them and I’d prefer not to feel bad. I’m typing as I read your words Mud and I’ve probably contradicted myself somewhere – about saying I don’t use sarcasm? I don’t know. Does it matter? Are you getting the main point about what I’m trying to say?
I will and do apologize if I inadveretantly caused you distress. I did not mean to. I was merely seeking to understand your position. But inadvertant pain is still pain. So you have my apologies for any pain anything I said may have caused you.
Thank you Mud. I hear you saying you’re sorry IF you caused me pain. I understand and that’s okay. Maybe what I’ve said above – and it seems to me, the more I write as I think, naturally, not edited and not censored – will cause you to see my position more clearly - how it was a genuine shock to think that you see me in that way?
But it’s okay, I think you are apologising. Thank you Mud. It means a lot.
You know, apology is really interesting. I go back to the Peace and Reconciliation process in South Africa.
For an apology to happen, both parties have to agree on the thing that warrants an apology. The person who did the thing needs to see exactly what they did and what the effect was on the other person. I guess it’s about empathy again maybe?
For me to say sorry to you, I really have to understand how I have hurt you and see it from your point of view. Then when I say sorry, you will know that I do understand what I did wrong and you will feel a change has happened, that I really see the problem. And you will feel relieved and understood. If I prove that I understand your hurt and regret it, you will feel better. It’s the mutual understanding that makes it work I think.
We’ve talked lots about apology here in the past, mainly because many people (our parents, siblings, partners) cannot seem to do it. They say ‘sorry I hurt you BUT it wasn’t my fault’ or ‘sorry you’re so sensitive’ and so on, neither of which are anything approaching a real apology. Interesting stuff, always. Anyway, about the Peace and Reconciliation process in South Africa. I remember – was it Desmond Tutu? Can’t remember. Possibly him chairing the thing and Winnie Mandela answering to her crimes. And he broke down in tears because she would not acknowledge her crimes or apologise for them. He virtually pleaded with her to apologise and she bowed her head and said ‘I’m sorry’ or something – but she wasn’t sorry and it hurt to watch that. To watch a woman so deeply without any conscience, without any remorse, without any notion of ethics or morality. It hurt to see someone so damaged, so narcissistic, so half-alive, so uncomprehending. That image stays with me, maybe I was relating it to someone I know eh? Quite possibly. I.e. my mother to avoid doubt.
Thanks Mud and I hope I truly hope that you’ll understand what I’m saying. I think you are a good big-hearted man and sometimes you feel attacked when there isn’t a fight going on. Maybe? What do you think? I like you. ((((Mud))))
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Herewegoagain
a nice cut and past job, Portia.
Thanks! Thanks? It's not a compliment is it? Is that sarcasm?! What do you mean exactly?
And very sympathetic. Of course why should your posts be sympathetic right? You can say what you want, can't you?
Umm. I didn’t intend to be overtly sympathetic. Good point. Maybe I should be? Maybe I’m being sympathetic by being tough and straight? I mean, if I make these points now, maybe I can change tack later? Or is that being manipulative? I feel that whatever I say to Marta isn’t getting through. So I may as well speak to everyone else…..oooooo *cringe*
Fine. I shall do differently and I would encourage everyone here to do as they wish on this board
Can you see my point?
You're also giving what seems to be a caring post about things that do happen on the board from time to time an 'edge' when that is not necesary at all. Simila to a few other threads at the moment.
Yep I see your point. I’m demonizing Marta aren’t I? I’m creating an ‘us and them’ culture which I absolutely abhor. Tricky stuff.
Okay. What shall I do differently? Probably stop responding to Marta? Respond differently? Any advice please?
Good call.
But hey I gotta go. I’m away for a while :D and need to do lots of stuff. Need to go now! Sorry but I will look for your reply when I can. Thank you. Back next week.
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Herewegoagain:
Another thought or two. I came back of course because of this need to prove myself not stupid. To open my mouth instead of just realising what I’ve done and dealing with it without posting. *thinks* I shouldn’t be here. Not fair. Etc etc. Starts to think about what is the board for anyway? Am I misusing it? Not questions to be answered, no thanks, please don’t. Just showing thought processes.
Marta:
I totally ignored this part of what you were saying:
Ours is a support board, not a suicide intervention hot line or a therapy board, hence we lack the skills that are so necessary in saying the right things that will help them. I see our job with to present ourselves with as much kindness and support as we can, without trying to adminster therapy or see how they are projecting etc. Encourage them to find a therapist or support as soon as possible. Whatever our personal ambivalence about therapy may be, a therapist is absolutely necessary for those who are in danger of suicide.
And I think there’s a serious and good message here which I just tossed aside in my reply to you. Too busy ‘hounding’ you and your opinions versus facts to see the meaning. Sorry.
Yep, I agree, if folks are suicidal or have problems which would be better dealt with elsewhere, we should encourage them to seek that help – be it A&E, therapy, another website and so on. I think we do do this already? Have done. Needs repeating.
I also think I’m putting too much at Dr Grossman’s door. I think I should behave more responsibly and not expect a – what did I call it? – safety valve? Take responsibility for my own stuff, not for the board that is.
I wish I didn’t feel the need to post this in some ways. Maybe that’s okay though? Righting the wrongs is okay if we do it about ourselves I guess. Yeah, that sounds good.
Now I really have exited for a few days. I think! :D
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You go bean!!!!
Portia, thank you for being STRONG and speaking your truth.
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Thanks bean and movinon. I am just fine. Just humbled myself a bit. Which is good. Sorting out the humbling from the toxic shame too….tricky or what?! Hard work.
Mud,
all that stuff up there is me being insecure and stuff. If it makes any sense - good, if it sparks anyone /anything – good. But my ego is sometimes too big for my boots…. er brain. And that might be in my boots sometimes too! It helped me of course which is why I wrote it I suppose….. yep.
Been talking and not really thinking too hard of late and have behaved in a way that tells me a lot about myself. (Now this is really N stuff! I’m joking.) I might have been speaking my ‘truth’ a lot BUT some of it has been quite bullying and inconsiderate (how I treated Brigid on Plucky’s thread for example) and I know where it comes from.
Being strong and truthful is okay - but not at other people’s expense. Yes?
Glad to talk dreams anytime! Take care all. And have good weekends :D
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Hi Porita,
When an apology is sincerely offered, and the giver is clearly trying to the best of their ability to unearth what was behind their argumentativeness...it's feels so good when the other accepts the apology. (If one feels hurt or angry, or a bit brittle in the boundary department though--who among us N-survivors hasn't??--that can be so hard to do sometimes. Been there, done that.)
However, if you remember that Forgiveness sermon I posted a while back, one has no control over whether another will accept one's apology. You can only give it, and then forgive yourself. There is no way to control or force another's response, though you can hope for it.
To me your ownership of your challenging recent posts recently, acknowledging your insecurity and squarely taking responsibility for the tone and the effect it had...is moving.
For me, "abuse" seems too strong a word to describe those posts. There was frustration, some anger, some degree of aggression--spurred by insecurity as you belatedly realized and owned up to---but to me personally it didn't reach the level of "abuse." To me, it sounded more like the desperation of someone who was feeling voiceless at the time. My T says when one is triggered there, it feels like a life-or-death struggle to be heard and acknowledged. (Your pitch increased when there was no response, I think. That's yours to deal with, I know, and anyone else--always, always has the right to disengage-- but I do have sympathy for what was driving you. Your emotion is what I felt I understood, not so much the logical tit-for-tats.)
It reminded me of how I wanted to retract a post I'd made to someone recently, who mentioned something they felt badly about, and I came on and said "well yes that sure was wrong to do." Imho, that was piling shame onto a place that the poster had just stepped up and taken responsibility for.
This is a valuable experience in conflict, observing myself observing, learning from everyone sharing so much (thank you, all of you--it is a gift)...and thinking about what reconciliation means.
I truly believe that when people can, forgiveness, rather than punishment, moves us all forward.
Love,
Hops
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Hi Portia,
I phrased it poorly. I should have said BECAUSE I have inadvertantly caused you pain, not IF I have inadvertantly caused you pain.
I did not feel attacked. I did not know what you were referring to and I presented a possible interpretation, and my objection to that interpretation. The important modifier 'if' began the sentence in question. I didn't put it there without reason.
If someone misunderstands something innocent I have said and takes it as an insult, I generally try to look at it from their perspective and just assume it was a misunderstanding. I don't assume the person was thinking I am some kind of slithering beast of the night. Just because I thought you might have made a wise crack to make your point does not, from my perspective, mean I am demeaning you or think of you less highly than others. I think you're expecting me to hold people to too high a standard. EVERYBODY says things they shouldn't, and there is no reason for you to be exempt from that possibility anymore than anyone else.
Please don't ask me to go through posts looking for a sarcastic comment by you. The incident I recall was a perfectly innocent episode several months ago that we PMed about. I'm sure I do not have the posts nor do I even remember what it was about. But it really doesn't matter does it? Your H says you are occasionally sarcastic so apparently you are capable of it. Its not like its the crime of the century to occasionally have a smart mouth. If it was my daughter would be serving a life term without parole, and I'd probably be in the cell next door. A person can be a wise ass without causing harm. There might be a little sting in the humor but it is usually to make a perfectly legitimate point. Often times I believe a sarcastic comment can be used to couch mild criticism in a little humor, when a direct criticism might very well lead to unnecessary conflict. Having said all that however, given the imprecision of human language and human perception I will grant that it is theoretically possible that you have never used sarcasm on this board and my perception of your use of it was in error.
I hope this is a sufficient explanation and everything is AOK for everyone, because frankly my brain is starting to hurt. :? :oops:
mud
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and it is in the conflict that people begin to face their own fears and short comings.
Amen Jac
Hop guest - very eloquently put
Mud - frankly my brain is starting to hurt. -tooo funny :lol:
Movinon
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Hi Marta,
I'm very sorry for the pain you've felt too. "Punched" carries a lot of pain.
I am thinking that as much as has been weathered on this thread I began, perhaps it would be good to close it now while we all breathe some.
I don't know if the person who starts a thread can lock it, but I'll give it a try.
I am sorry we all weren't all okay...but not for the chance to learn from it.
Thanks to all of you, because you all plunged in and tried. It wasn't wasted.
There may be belated gifts...I hope there will be.
In the meantime, peace...
Hopalong