Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: darky on February 22, 2006, 07:23:20 AM
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i would have to say for me, its people presuming to know what i am thinking or feeling. or presuming my intentions, good or bad. nothing gets me more worked up or angry than someone telling me they know my thoughts and feelings.
i think this is because of years of having someone on and on in my head telling me how i think or feel, and the battles within myself fighting for independance and a mind of my own. i have that mind now and boy am i protective of it!
what about yourselves?
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Darky, everything you say I feel is true for me.
The worse thing right now for me I think is the lack of trust.
I don't trust the world not to take bites out of me. And I don't trust myself not to imagine the world is about to take a bite...even if the evidence is that it's not going to happen.
It's getting easier I think, but having allowed myself to get severely bitten at work, I am reticent. It's a bugger!
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Hi Darky,
I feel the same too. I hate it also when you open yourself up to someone you care about and if you ever have a disagreement with them, sometimes they bring up your vulnerabilities in the arguement. Most people don't bother me much and they seem quite considerate kind people compared to my horrid mum. My mum has the ability to make me feel like a squashed ant. Noone else can do this.
Jessica :)
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Hiya all
This is really interesting and definitely rings a bell with me too.
Another biggie for me is trusting in my thoughts. Maybe sounds a bit odd, but I'll try and give an example. This morning I had a meeting with the Operations Manager and two delivery managers where they talk about resource for the next week. While they were talking about one guy, I actually said what he was doing and why.... this is a huge thing for me, why? Because my initial thought is always don't say anything, it'll be wrong anyway... which I know stems from my n dad.
It's hard, but I'm trying to change it.
H&H xx
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Hi all:
Well.....I hardly have to post here eh? Obviously I have the same problem as others have posted about the presuming of my thoughts and feelings being something that is very uncomfortable (which....I find myself wanting to say: "Thankyou all because I don't feel so alone now, with that problem, or like I'm crazy for saying that I don't like it etc. Thankyou.")
I can relate everything ya'll have written and when I really think about it, I think the biggest lasting side effect for me is constantly battling all the fear.
I think lot's of people have fears, at least from what I can gather from the people I've talked to about this over the years but I also think coming from an abusive background creates deeper, more frequent fear that surfaces just about everywhere and about everything. I'm afriad to post. I'm afraid not to post. I'm afraid I will say something that will make things worse. I'm afraid if I don't say something, things will get worse. On and on and on....in my head....fears like this jump up about a zillion times per day and seem to almost constantly cause:
a) me to question everything I say and do (in my head before and after events)
b) and cause me to speak, act, react or not do anything, depending on the circumstance and what fears are generated
c) block my peace and serenity (by causing me to do a) & b) over and over sometimes with such gusto!!).
It just seems like I have to battle this constantly, every day of my life, and I wonder if I hadn't come from such a background, would I be struggling to overcome fear so often?? I don't think it would be so large. I really don't.
The good news is..... I don't like to let fear take control, win, rule, whatever and so I do battle like a banshee against it, usually bringing about it's death!! (at least for a time).
But the wailing that agoes on ta git there!! :shock: :!: EEEEEEEeeeeeeeeenormous!
Sela
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I would agree with Portia with the inability to trust. The affects of my father's n behaviors actually made me strive to be the opposite of him (even though I occasionally see his traits come out in me and that scares me and makes me angry). He was so constantly critical and unloving and unemotional--at least with his family--and I am very much the opposite. But the affects of my exh's n behaviors have left a lasting scar of lack of trust. I was always a very trusting person before I discovered all his lies and hidden behaviors. The fact that he got away with it for so long without my knowing has left me being suspect of those around me. Maybe that is not such a bad thing, and I will no longer blindly trust someone just because I love them and assume they would treat me as I would treat them. As Portia said, it does get better with time and those who are closest to me now, have earned my trust for the most part, but those fears still occasionally rear their heads.
Brigid
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What do I think is the most lasting side effect of being involved with an N?
Strength.
They did their worst and I'm still standing. And by the grace of God I'll still be standing long after they're dead and gone.
mud
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thankyou very much bean for writing that, i was almost in tears, it felt like some confirmation for me if that makes sense? im still half convinced im a nut you see.
heres another one i thought of that i have a huge problem with.
im always worrying that ive upset someone. even my hubby that i have been with for 15yrs and married to for 12yrs. i cant judge mood at all. he may be quiet and im worried he may have something on his mind, or ive upset him for some reason. i get very edgy and expecting conflict. i usualy leave a freind or conversation and say to hubby, were they funny with me? did i do or say something wrong?i want to be liked but i dont trust or believe in my abilities with people. it would devistate me if i upset anyone. i am very suspicious of people being nice, or doing something for me, i worry that people have a hidden agenda and might hurt me. i live a huge part of my day with anxiety. some days i cannot even answer the phone or the door.
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I've become a very strong person too.
I guess the lasting side effect in relationships is people don't get many chances now. If someone hurts or offends me I somehow can't forget it and tend to move away from them; maybe this is something will fade over time.
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years of feeling like i had been "snowed over" by Nparents, Nfriends, (I had 2 close ones), and Nboyfriends, (high school and college "sweethearts,") left me wwwaaaaaayy more suspicious of people's intentions and i'm just not as trusting, and open as i used to be. (this is probably a good thing, though)
some used to say i was very gullible, others would say i was very naive and sheltered. one Nfriend would say in jest, "Geez, you've got plenty of book sense, but no common sense." that left me feeling "socially stupid" for a while.
tiff
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There are several things:
1) Not being able to trust anyone. If you can't trust the woman who gave you birth, who in the world can you trust.
2) Not thinking the best about people - - - always considering they're out to get what they want.
3) Fear: figuring you'll say something or doing something to screw things up.
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I would have to agree with everyone - trust. Because my ex N bf lied about everything from the bigest things to the most insignificant things , I find myself questioning the littlest things that people say. I don't seem to trust my ears or my heart like I use to before him. I find it difficult to just relax and enjoy a conversation...I am always in an internal dialog with myself, picking apart what is being said instead of listening and being completely present.
D
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You know that Green Day song that goes, "I walk alone, I walk alone....."
That's how I feel.
Bitterness. Tough to forgive. Also ever heard the phrase, "one hand clapping"? Meaning "hopeless".
This last part I just feel for the one specific N. person in my life.
K.
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Yep - trust
In particular, trusting men. I know that's not fair, but it's what I struggle with TODAY.
ANother is a feeling of not belonging - drives me BONKERS and sends me into a tail spin. I realize this is total family of origin stuff, but that's what's triggered in me often these days. I guess the fact that he actively isolated me from family and friends reinforced that "old tape" in my head.
It comes from years of being told what I'm thinking and feeling,
Bean - exactly!!!!!! YOU are so insightful as well!
Movinon
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For me, it's not having appropriate feelings when someone is treating me badly. There are times when I should have been outraged at another person's behavior. Yet, I just don't have those feelings. Instead, I feel that if I had done something differently, I wouldn't have been treated that way. The more appropriate reaction would be to feel angry and acknowledge the other person behaved like a jerk, and I was not responsible for that behavior. I've put up with way too much bs as a result. Even when I know, intellectually, that someone is behaving very badly, I don't have those feelings that would give me the impetus to get out of the situation. I hate that, because I can't trust my feelings to give me needed protection. I hate having to intellectualize something that should be instinctual.
Gail
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Me too Gail. Just like people pointed out on my whine thread.
When others might get angry, I usually get sad.
Then again, sometimes I get unusually happy for simple reasons,
so there's that too...I think one legacy of living with Ns has
been my enormous gratitude for any love that appears in my life.
I never take it for granted and I'm amazed by how beautiful
and good people are. That may be a gift, how growing up
lonely made me value connection so much.
Might as well start looking for the gifts hidden in my history,
is how I see it. If I decide to look at it that way, they're there.
Hopalong
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Gotta add to my previous - trusting MYSELF to make the right decisions - in particular w/ choosing a healthy partner.
Movinon
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i would have to say for me, its people presuming to know what i am thinking or feeling. or presuming my intentions, good or bad. nothing gets me more worked up or angry than someone telling me they know my thoughts and feelings.
i think this is because of years of having someone on and on in my head telling me how i think or feel, and the battles within myself fighting for independance and a mind of my own. i have that mind now and boy am i protective of it!
This is one of mine, along with:
Never feeling SURE of myself or decisions... I've always had someone tell me I was wrong for feeling something or doing something that I decided for myself.
The guilt. The overwhelming, always-present guilt. Guilt for not being what she said I should be, for not doing the things she thought I should do, for not taking care of her and all of her problems. For being "heartless, cold and twisted" according to her for not taking care of her.
And the ever-present fear that I am turning into my mother.
Not literally - just that she always said that I was "hers" and that we thought alike, and our personalities were so similar... I am so scared that I will become a bitter, lonely and needy person, just like she is now.
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Trust ... but it's not an inability to trust others - I do that all too easily and foolishly - the problem is trusting my own judgment ... of knowing when to walk away. This is the problem that I am focusing on in my internet research on narcissists and psychopaths (sociopaths). Of course, it is more than just a simple 9-point checklist (although they can be helpful). There is a broader sense of it ... a desire to know that I am "wired" right to protect myself instinctively, because I feel that my instincts are kinda (whoa boy!) screwed up ... and my repeated experiences with narcissists seems to demonstrate this. Gail said it well: " I can't trust my feelings to give me needed protection."
I don't like being suspicious of everyone, but ... ya know ... I'm wondering if, once I get a handle on it, it may be simply a realistic way to survive in a sporadically unhealthy society. Not to doubt my own judgment, but to realistically question the motives and agendas of everyone I meet. Perhaps that is basically normal - and perhaps the feeling that I "shouldn't have to" be suspicious is simply a delusion born of being raised by people who demanded that I ignore my self-protection, and "let" myself be walked all over. Maybe healthy people DO protect themselves ... regularly, habitually, normally. What a concept!
(I was just reading a list of P.T.S.D. symptoms, and heading the list: "Vigilance and scanning" ... and I thought, well, is that such a bad thing?)
No, another point, even stronger ... on the "wounded" thread I commented at greater length ... but my basic idea was that, from my programming, I carry many of the seeds of narcissism. Thus the most diabolical side-effect of my naracissistic association is my own narcissistic behavior - the more I learn about narcissists, I see myself lurking in these checklists ... and wonder how badly I am twisted by this history ... and can I be made whole, or am I doomed to being one of those "incurable" narcissists I have read SO much about?! Have I become "just like them"?? Nay, say it is not so! Oh wretched life! Dastardly fate! A pox upon thy house, who bore me ill!
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Might as well start looking for the gifts hidden in my history,
is how I see it. If I decide to look at it that way, they're there.
this is definitely the philosophy of this 'Simple Abundance' Daybook I am working through.
Today's entry ( which I think should really be for tomorrow ) was a wake up. Stop planning, start doing!
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perhaps the feeling that I "shouldn't have to" be suspicious is simply a delusion born of being raised by people who demanded that I ignore my self-protection, and "let" myself be walked all over. Maybe healthy people DO protect themselves ... regularly, habitually, normally. What a concept!
Declarlib,
Chin up a bit. Ns have NO sense of humor, and you clearly do! And this is wise.
Keep digging, brave thing. You'll weather it.
You'll find out you're loveable.
Hopalong
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Several times I have fallen in love with someone who either didn't or couldn't love me back the same way. And I would just hang onto it for so long, hoping they would come to their senses. With some distance on these experiences, I suspect these were people who couldn't love me back or couldn't show it because of their own traumas or lacks. But I thought for so long that I must be unlovable. It didn't make sense when I compared myself to people who were clearly flawed or whatever but still had lots of friends and dates, etc. But it was the only reason I could think of given my childish experience and lack of self-confidence. When I was a kid I actually felt sorry for my parents for having me as a kid. So, it just reinforced that wrong idea when no boyfriends came knocking at my door. Probably I was falling for the kind of people I was used to--bottled up people. And was probably also giving off body language that showed my discomfort or inability. Awkwardness is certainly a big turnoff. Neediness too.
Pennyplant
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Hey folks,
I want to pipe up in defense of the word "needy." I have discovered that I don't like it (nothing personal, PP, I just fixate on language, you'll see... :)) --- that the word "needy" has become an epithet.
Seems to me it signals that it's not okay to be lonely.
I've just identified for me that this is a little trigger word. So I always pipe up about it.
I do understand that damp clutchy emotional desperation is draining and hard to deal with. But I know that when I hear "needy" -- applied to anyone -- I feel a desire to defend.
I need
You need
He/She/It needs
We need
You need
They need
I don't like "needy" as a bad thing, since to me it is just a signal of some love and healing that are...needed. True, a person has to at some point tap into, or learn to build, their own inner strength. But when that's wobbly or weak, I don't want shame piled on. We prize independence so much that a lot of people suffer in silence and isolation.
(I know nobody intended that as a put-down of anybody! Just a little word-rant.)
Thanks for tolerating...(and PP, I share the same track record. What a relief to be getting off it.)
Hops
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Oh, yes, I think I'm close to being cured of falling in love with the unloving. In fact, it was a recent experience with a co-worker who I suspected was n that led me to all kinds of soul-searching, web-surfing, and this place here.
I guess I have trouble with "lonely" and "needy". Neither one feels good! I get kind of lost in those feelings sometimes. An English teacher once picked up on that idea of mine, must have written an essay about it, and he told me there is a difference between being lonely and being alone. Uh, yeh, I knew that. But most people really don't like to hear admissions of that nature. And what do you say when someone you hardly know tells you they are lonely? I'm sure my teacher thought he was being helpful.
Maybe my problem with needy comes from having often been the recipient of extreme neediness from other people and not being able to keep from being overwhelmed by it. Often by the time I assert myself in such an unbalanced relationship, so much resentment or whatever has built up that I just explode or say something very blunt and hurtful. I've burned some bridges that way. Have also tried just pacifying the person and eventually been burned myself by being victimized by those very needy people. It's been a trap for me in the past. I don't want to be the kind of person who does that to others. Anyway, if I try to be needy, I get put in my place rather quickly.
Many people count on me to be very capable and un-needy. Less work for them, I suppose. That was always my role in my family. My sister was the needy one. I could take care of myself and was pretty much left to do so while my sister had the whole neighborhood, school, family, in an uproar. Quite a burden on me from a very young age. Perhaps that is where my bias against "needy" comes from. And it is also part of "lonely" because that is what it led to for me. Having a needy sister who could regularly create an uproar or even a small riot was often quite humiliating and isolating for me. Just heart-breaking sometimes.
This is just the way it seems to me because of my particular story. It would be nice to be able to be more neutral or open-minded about certain feelings. I can see your point, Hops, but it is hard for me to get past some of these things still.
And to give her credit, my sister has finally gotten herself into therapy at age 43.
Pennyplant
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I can certainly understand that, PennyP!
It makes complete sense, how that word makes a different sound within you.
It's wonderful when people tell their true inner stories, fill in the blanks just by telling.
I am so sorry for what you went through with your drama-princess sister...and all the others who were so self-absorbed. You must've felt like you were walking around with an anvil on your shoulders, with all those "needies" plucking at you.
When what you needed was just your fair share of the oxygen.
No wonder.
Thanks for sharing that, PennyP.
Hops
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the most lasting effect?
before I woke up: Doubting my strength, denying my own power, apologizing for my spirit, questioning my own good intention and even sanity/mental health.
after waking up: finding my strength, owning my power, celebrating my spirit, knowing my intention is good, and that I am sane and healthy.
So, I can (secretly) thank my "enemy" always for those blessings bestowed in such a harsh manner.
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hey everyone i am so very new here and i wish to say thank you so much
the most lasting side effect has been a good one my n father whipped me and my twin as children even as young as 9 i remember
we were hiding we were always hiding we wispered to each other when we grow up we will never hurt our children and the cycle
stopped with us funny the gift with in the problem not that one needs to be hurt as a child to see as a adult not to do that i have just always remembered that whispered conversation other side effect he is a control freak he thinks he can control the world
i am not a control freak and do not try and control others moonlight
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I'd have to say SUSPICION of pretty much everyone's motives toward me as well as an intense feeling of estrangement when someone I'm used to hearing from, all of a sudden gets too busy to contact me.
First, the suspicion is not without cause...I have this thing of being an "N-magnet"...I draw these types of people as "friends" it seems, no matter where I go or what I do.
Secondly, I have object constancy issues anyway at times that I still have to really work hard at reassuring myself that "out of sight" does not imply that the person is NEVER returning again. (this was used as a weapon on me by people...withdrawing affection or attention and giving it to someone else in front of me and expecting me to be fine with it...by saying "what's the matter? you jealous? you're not afraid that I'm going to replace you for HER are you?" and then that's exactly what ended up happening!
ReallyME
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Hi Penny
There are some people in my life who see "neediness" as a weakness almost. The one person was raised in a minister's home and she also was the person who was expected to be the strong one, while her sister was a rebel and got all the negative attention.
As an adult, this person is very driven to achieve. Are you the same way?
ReallyME
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Hi ReallyMe,
Growing up I was the one who behaved, got good grades, was obedient, reliable. Had to be the opposite of my sister. It was very, very stressful. I would jump thru hoops to please authority figures. Was a nervous wreck about "getting in trouble". In school work, the good grades sometimes led to awards or recognition. It seemed like I would be successful in college and then have a career. That all got derailed when I became pregnant at 18. So, it is hard to tell how I might have turned out if I had kept on the track I seemed to be on.
Througout adulthood, anyplace I worked, it seemed like I was in charge, even though I rarely have been. Never been in the right place at the right time to make real progress in any field of work. Where I work now, people assume I will eventually go into management. But I doubt it.
So, I probably have tendencies toward "achievement" and probably similar personality traits with people who tend to achieve. "Success" is not really a goal of mine anymore, though. Now I would like to perform well in areas that feed my soul. Something creative. But....that nervousness and the worrying about pleasing others both get in the way of real creativity. So, my goal now is to set my self free inside so that I can really be creative.
Probably goal-setting is another characteristic of success-oriented, achievers!!!! Damn.
So, I guess the answer to your question is--yes.
PP