Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Sela on March 07, 2006, 09:22:23 AM
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Yesterday I was thinking about words and their power.
For a moment, I felt the pain of the words my mother once sneered at me, in anger and frustration, when I was a teen, doing whatever I did to provoke such anger and frustration. The words were:
"I hate you."
Those words hurt me deeply. They felt like a sword being driven into my heart and the extent of that pain seems obvious to me now, since I can so easily recall it and feel it. Just after they were said, I realized the power such words have to cause harm to people and I silently vowed never to say such a thing to any child I might be blessed with. So far, so good. :D
Then, some years ago, our family was seeing a psychologist who was supposed to be trying to help us with a problem and particularly at that time, supposedly helping to enhance communication between my daughter and myself. In one session, we were talking about our basic beliefs and I had clearly stated that "I think hate is very destructive and that it truly corrodes the vessel within which it resides. It is something I do not allow into my home or my life." , after which the psychologist immediately turned to my daughter and said: "It's ok to say: 'I hate you.' !"
:shock: :shock: :? :x :( :!: :!: :x :x :x
That, along with a few other things he said that felt extremely uncomfortable to me, motivated me to seek out another psychologist and describe to him the words that were causing me some distress. I hardly finished a couple of sentences when that psychologist said: "Dr. _________ should NOT be inserting his feelings or opinions....", at which point I realized that I wasn't crazy and decided to quit seeing the first "doctor".
I feel like I've been trying to repair the damage to my relationship with my daughter ever since. :( :(
Lately, here there has been some discussion about who's "right" and who "knows" what and that got me thinking about some of my basic beliefs and my opinions on stuff and about this business of saying: "I hate you" and so now......I'm really wondering:
Is it ever ok to say I hate you?
I mean, even to your worst enemy? When do two wrongs ever equal a right?
I guess I'm just after other people's opinions because they just seem like such seriously cruel, hurtful, powerful, vile words and so very hard to retract. It's not likely that my opinion about using them will change but I am curious to know if others have experienced anything similar, or if many think it's an ok thing to do and if so why? I guess I'm trying to understand why someone would think it's ok to tell my child such a thing, especially, after I just stated my objection to saying it? (actually.....I probably know the answer to that......he was just a crappy manipulative jerk trying to extend our business to line his pockets, imo, to be honest).
I don't even know why this is sticking in my head lately but it is. :? :? I guess I'm still processing stuff I thought I was finished with. It's just that that man belittled me infront of my daughter, totally disrespected me by choosing to contradict something I believe is sooo important, and not only that....but my shocked reaction was to not know what to say, which must have made me out to be a real dim wit!!! :oops: :oops:
I feel frustrated with myself, for not standing up to him, at that moment, and very angry and resentful toward that "doctor" .... I feel like writing him a letter expressing exactly how much etc!! :x :x
But what good would that do? :?
I'm sure my daughter will make her own mind up about such matterss but I sure didn't like him annihilating my opinion and seemingly trying to void my feelings!!
Sela
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((((((Sela))))))
What does “I hate you” mean to you?
What would it mean if you said it?
I had clearly stated that "I think hate is very destructive and that it truly corrodes the vessel within which it resides. It is something I do not allow into my home or my life." , after which the psychologist immediately turned to my daughter and said: "It's ok to say: 'I hate you.' !"
Psych thought you were denying your daughter permission to express hate within your home. Not good to repress anything so he tells her it’s okay. :?:
Hate is a feeling isn’t it?
If we don't express hate in some way...what happens to the feeling?...
This is tricky for me.....I don't think I ever said it but I sure felt it.
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“I hate you!”
I think whenever someone says this, they’re overflowing with raw emotion. I can’t imagine saying it otherwise. Can you?
What I’d be feeling would be very angry, very threatened, very vulnerable and probably as though whatever was happening was causing me to feel – helpless. Having no control over anything. No power. No self almost! “I hate you!” for me would be my last attempt to assert my ‘self’.
But otherwise, using the word hate… I might say: “I hate intolerance!” (which is intolerant okay..) or I might say “I hate hatred!!!”
Fear?
(((((((((Sela)))))))))
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back again...
It's just that that man belittled me infront of my daughter, totally disrespected me by choosing to contradict something I believe is sooo important, and not only that....but my shocked reaction was to not know what to say, which must have made me out to be a real dim wit!!!
Made voiceless by a psych who was supposed to helping communication? Yeah, not the brightest spark eh? Okay, what he was trying to do was probably okay in intent (telling your D it’s okay to voice feelings) BUT he didn’t hear you at all. He took your D’s ‘side’ (regressing himself, no doubt) and made you the big baddie parent. Not exactly helpful.
What strikes me is – you still want to voice your reaction to him?
I sure didn't like him annihilating my opinion and seemingly trying to void my feelings!!
This is what happens I think when we say “I hate you!” to someone. We try and stop their power/opinion/control, we try and void them out. Like your mom did to you I guess. Maybe she saw you as powerful and threatening to her at that time?
I think it’s pretty normal for very young children (2-4) to say “I hate you!” to their parents because it’s all about finding their boundaries, their personal power and sizing up to the world. Being thwarted is terrible at that age and the emotions are huge (which is why excessive shame at that age leads to you-know-what).
How are you feeling? You okay?
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The last time I said anything equivalent to "I hate you" was after a co-worker played a mean prank on me that backfired because I was not in a good mood that day (and the prank just happened to involve my car which is a sore spot with me). I called him an a------ and said I don't even like you. Everyone else at work thought it was great because they thought he had it coming. But I felt terrible for a couple of weeks after. There was a terrible tension between us and I hadn't even meant it the way it sounded. It came from anger--just like Portia said.
Much later on he retaliated in a very cruel way (verbally, but still....) so it wasn't really over when it was over if you know what I mean. That retaliation took months and months for me to be able to let go of.
Now I'm not saying I regret my words because he retaliated. I regret my words because they were not true and they caused harm. He reacted the way he did because of his own bugaboos from his past. In some ways, the two of us are similar and that is maybe why it hurt so much.
Because of what I learned from that incident, I don't ever expect to say anything like that to anyone ever again.
As for the doctor who undermined you in front of your daughter, disrespected you I would say, that might be an issue on top of the idea of bringing hate into your home and relationship. I would try to let go of him undermining you because you can try to fix that by having a heart to heart with your daughter, maybe while eating out or doing a chore together. Let her know where exactly you're coming from with this issue of hate. She will listen if it is just a conversation. Let her get to know and understand that part of you. That doctor is an idiot and I'm not sure if a letter to him will make a difference. It might not be very satisfying to you either, as he may not even respond to it. Think about how you would feel in that instance. The real dialogue should be with your daughter, I think.
Just some food for thought. Penny P
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(((Sela)))
I am so sorry that therapist did that - it does sound like a misguided attempt to ensure that your daughter felt like she could express her own feelings, but to use that choice of words and knowing how you felt about them, well... that was very poor judgement. It is good that you aren't seeing him anymore.
I have never used "I hate you" during fights or even called someone names. This is a huge issue with me in dealing with my mother, who seems to enjoy saying things like that, and this is with her knowing how I feel about it. I've explained in very simple terms how saying that (and using curse words or nasty names) hurts me, so apparently she does it now on purpose.
It was a very sad day for me when I realized that my mother's main objective in her fighting with me was not to resolve the problem, but to hurt and punish me for whatever perceived transgression I had done to her. I also had the awful sensation of realizing that she did not have unconditional love for me. She only loved me when I was obeying and conforming to her ideals.
So her saying things like "I hate you. I don't know if I ever loved you." (or my personal "favorite") "You f--king b!tch - you are going to fail at _____" and then pointing out that she had just called me the curse words "Notice my language!" to make sure I understood that she wasn't going to change and actually was going to do exactly what I had asked her not to do.
I would rather hear "I'm angry with you" or "I hate what you did." It is a subtle shift and acknowledges the feeling, but does not become an open attack on the other person. With those statements, it brings the anger out in the open, and should be possible to discuss why it upset the person and try to figure out what to do to fix it.
I know that I am capable of resolving conflict without yelling and anger, because I do it all of the time with my husband. He was also raised by disfunctional parents, and came into our relationship not knowing how to "fight fair". We sat down early on, discussed how we wanted to handle disagreements and for the most part, we get through arguments hearing both sides and hardly ever resort to even raising our voices. Sure, we get angry with each other, but we work it out without name calling, attacking and blaming the other person. It is truely amazing, but seeing that we can do this, coming from the backgrounds we both had, it is clear to me that my mother just doesn't want or see the need to change how she communicates her anger to me. She doesn't value our relationship enough to try to fix what is wrong on her end.
I guess that is the problem - is the objective to resolve the issue or to hurt and punish?
Healthy expressions of anger are possible, but using the words "I hate you" just destroy a person's soul and prevent the anger from ever being released the way it should be...
At least, that is my 2¢.
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hi portia this question is important a mother saying this to a teenage daughter big hurtful thing to do .i cannot imagine saying such a thing to my 13 year old. but i went the other way so careful with words.well it really has not been that hard yet with my 13 year old but it depends on intent .my 13 year old can say alot of things she does not mean in tones she sez she does not think are dis respectful. i do explain these things to her but she has once or twice said oh i hate you .she was not even that mad. i saw that and said aw you dont really mean that you love me and she looked at me surprised i said that and said i love you mom. but how come big sis got the young mom i got the old one (my girls are 15 years apart) yeah big sis got the cool one but you got the wise one .i guess if you can see whats behind the words not just the words themselves
but i sure am careful with words my n parent got me thur the heart with words so many times i can not count glad we do not do that stuff huh
moonlight
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For a parent to say that to a child is brutal. Beyond that, it's profoundly immature and reckless. I am so sorry you even have that memory.
The T was off base, I think also.
I think what the T should have said is, EVERYONE sometimes feels hate, even for someone they love. You are not a bad person if you sometimes feel that way. BUT...what people need to learn is that speaking those words can hurt someone even more than if you hit them, and it's something that can hurt them for years and years and years.
Now, it's up to you, but if you think about it some, do YOU think it's okay now to say that to your mother?
(Me, I said it once to my mother when I was an adolescent. I've felt waves of it at times since, but never said it again.)
It also strikes me as a STUPID thing to say because what it really means is, I am so angry I have lost the ability to describe anything, so I am going to resort to the most primitive and destructive thing I can think of.
From a child to a mother, forgivable. Kids don't learn for a long time how to articulate more subtle feelings, or express anger responsibly. For a mother to say it to a child, unbearable.
But...it seems your mother WAS a child at the time she said that to you. In memory, the towerful all-powerful parent. But in reality, regardless of her age, just an immature, blaming, unhappy creature.
I'm sorry you have that memory. Bless you for turning it into an act of restraint and love toward your children.
Hops
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Hi everyone and thankyou all for reading and posting. I appreciate your thoughts and your taking the time to put them here. Warning: This is very long.
Porita asked: What does “I hate you” mean to you?
I think it means, as Bean put it, "I reject you" (and I would add: "as a person, all of you, everything about you, your entire being. You are a lousy person."). Also, as you put it P, "overflowing with raw emotion" (extreme anger, I think), even as Hoppy said: "I am so angry I have lost the ability to describe anything, so I am going to resort to the most primitive and destructive thing I can think of. " To me, it also means: "I'm going to hurt you now with words" and exactly what Jac said: "Saying "I hate you" is like attacking the very core of the person".
By the way, I should have pointed out that my daughter didn't say this to me, it was just part of a discussion about our basic beliefs and this is what I said is one of mine. My daughter wasn't trying to express her feelings, I was trying to express mine. Some of you may be right and the T might have been trying to let my daughter know that it's ok to express strong feelings or........
maybe not. Maybe he was just trying to reduce the value of my belief?? Or maybe he just has a different opinion. Another example:
I said: "I have great faith in God".
His response: "And your faith!!! It's like the Buddhists!! The Buddihists think we should all sit around and lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvve eachother! The only problem with that is that....... while everyone is sitting around lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvving eachother, nothing ever gets done!!!!"
Those were his exact words. :shock: :shock: :?
Again, I felt shock and confusion and mostly.......belittled, infront of my daughter. Like my feelings were totally discounted and something I value was reduced to zero. And once more, I didn't know what to say and just sat there, looking stunned and feeling like a nothing.
There has been a lot of discussion on this board about people's beliefs in higher powers. These are often the rocks that hold people in place....often what they rely on to get through difficult times in their lives. People rely on their higher powers and find hope in them. I'm sorry.
How dare he rudely, inconsiderately, and bluntly put down my basic belief like that, infront of my child!!! I think that was totally unprofessional and it sure seemed like it was done to demean. What a misuse and abuse of power!!
Portia asked: If we don't express hate in some way...what happens to the feeling?...
I agree and I disagree. Yes, it's important that we express and release our feelings and I think that is the crux of the feeling of hate, anyway, in that it is anger that builds up and builds up and never gets expressed or released and so it grows and grows until it is finally ....a much stronger, much more dangerous and very destructive feeling......that of hate. It eats away at a person's insides.
But who's rights over ride/are more important/take precidence over who's??
Do you or I have more right to express our feelings than those who's feelingswe hurt by doing so?
Don't we all have a responsibility, as well as rights?
I think I think this because I've been on both ends of the scale.
I cringe at the thought of myself, as a child, laying in her bed, planning her father's murder, and feeling a severe bout of hate. And I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of hate because of my own mother, in a fit of anger and frustration, exploding and saying: "I hate you" to me.
Neither thing is any good, imo.
I have taught my children that it is very important to express feelings and to get them out....in ways that do not hurt others and that it is best.....even detrimental...to do so a.s.a.p. to avoid them growing into something bigger and even harder to get rid of....or worse......something that might explode and they then might find themselves......regretting their actions and having to take responsibility for much bigger stuff.
Maybe I'm totally cracked?? But that's what I think. And I think it's wrong to think it's ok to hurt others, just because we're feeling something. That's what causes stuff like murder and war. People get to explode without regard for anyone but themselves. We don't accept it in our society. It's not what most people in the world want. It just seems important to begin teaching this at home.
P also said: What I’d be feeling would be very angry, very threatened, very vulnerable and probably as though whatever was happening was causing me to feel – helpless. Having no control over anything. No power. No self almost! “I hate you!” for me would be my last attempt to assert my ‘self’.
Portia, I understand this completely. It sounds like you're saying you would be feeling desperate for a way to protect yourself and that these words might be it? You might even feel afraid and so it is a way of defense?
My question is......how does the person on the other end feel, once you get to express this? Do their feelings count at all?
Feeling angry is normal, human, inevitable. Expressing anger is necessary, important and also normal, human, inevitable. Choosing how to express it........is just that.......a choice. Nothing more.
We can all choose to use restraint or allow ourselves to lose control. That's the way I see it.
And......since we are only human, we will sometimes make a poor choice. That's probably going to happen, at least sometimes, for most of us.
I guess it's what happens after that that matters eh? Whether or not we take responsibility for that choice, or not.
Made voiceless by a psych who was supposed to helping communication? Yeah, not the brightest spark eh? Okay, what he was trying to do was probably okay in intent (telling your D it’s okay to voice feelings) BUT he didn’t hear you at all. He took your D’s ‘side’ (regressing himself, no doubt) and made you the big baddie parent. Not exactly helpful.
Thankyou for this, Portia. I feel like you've heard me and that feels good. No, it wasn't helpful. It was damaging to our relationship, I think. Like I said, I feel like I've been trying to repair a lot of the damage that man did, ever since. The good news is......my daughter and I are communicating with eachother much better now, regardless of the T's "help". It's just that I feel very angry and resentful that he added to our difficulties instead of giving us both empathy and aiding us in hearing eachother (which is what I thought it was his job to do as a T??). Not insert his feelings or opinions but help us understand eachothers feelings and opinions.
I think we're doing that very well now, on our own. So that isn't the problem, really. The problem is my wanting to release my feelings about the experience, which I guess I must still be carting around, since I keep feeling them. I guess I'm trying to live what I believe. Not always so easy to do eh?
What strikes me is – you still want to voice your reaction to him.
Ya. After years too. I want to give him the duct tape treatment (in my fantasies) and I want to get rid of my anger and resentment towards him. I guess I'll have to get the old bongos out and pound on his head for awhile!! It is odd that I can't let go of this. Maybe because I was so very shocked and disappointed. I was so hoping for his help and looking forward to so much and it was all lost when he behaved like this. I felt ripped off. I still feel ripped off! I want my money back!!! (hahahahahaha!! "Dear Doc: I'm feeling much stronger now. Strong enough to speak. I think you added to our difficulties and you harmed me by devaluing my basic beliefs infront of my child, which caused me to feel voiceless and insulted, angry, frustrated, disappointed and ripped off! I think you harmed her by showing how easy and acceptable (it seems like) it is to disrespect her mother and by making me out to be some sort of quack. I want my money back! Please send a cheque to..........".
:D :D Do you think I'll get a refund???
we try and void them out. Like your mom did to you I guess. Maybe she saw you as powerful and threatening to her at that time?
Maybe. And maybe she didn't consider how hurtful her words were to say to her daughter? Maybe she didn't consider my feelings at all? Maybe she acted / chose to act on her feelings and that is totally understanable, although, not an acceptable thing to do to a child/teen, imo? Maybe, she could have apologised sometime for that, which she never did. Maybe I'm angry with her for not doing that or taking responsibility for hurting me with her words.
"Dear Doc: It's not all you. It's my mother's words that hurt too. Nevermind about the refund."
Thanks ((((Portia)))). You helped.
How are you feeling? You okay?
Thankyou for asking. I feel messed up. I have a sore throat and a cold and so I guess I'm just in a negative mode physically and this might be part of why I'm also feeling low emotionally. I hate injustice!! I really do. I wish life were fair. It isn't and I otta just get used to it!!! I'll be better soon, I promise. :D
Penny said: I called him an a------ and said I don't even like you. Everyone else at work thought it was great because they thought he had it coming. But I felt terrible for a couple of weeks after. There was a terrible tension between us and I hadn't even meant it the way it sounded. It came from anger--just like Portia said.
Thankyou for being so honest. We all say things we regret and I admire you for speaking about this.
I regret my words because they were not true and they caused harm.
I'm glad you learned from the experience and are able to take responsibility.
Because of what I learned from that incident, I don't ever expect to say anything like that to anyone ever again.
The hard part is apologising eh? I agree. It's so much easier to just try not to choose to express ourselves like that to begin with. I know it's impossible to always do but at least.......it's worth trying for and especially....worth trying not to get to such extremes we will later regret. Good for you Penny. I bet you will live up to your expectations!
I would try to let go of him undermining you because you can try to fix that by having a heart to heart with your daughter
Thankyou Penny. That's what I've done and continue to try to do and it is helping. My daughter is in university, a few hours away from my home, so those opportunities are not as frequent as they once were. I think this is one of the reasons I might be having a hard time "letting go", as you suggest. Because it feels like the last chance of improving so much was wasted in these sessions with this "doctor" who seemed bent on extending our time with him, rather than using that time to help us connect more deeply. I honestly think he saw a chance for "extended therapy", since he kept talking about "6 months from now......." and "a year from now....", as if we were going to be seeing him long term. It's hard to believe that there are actually people out there who may be mostly into making a profit off their clients but unfortunately there are people like that.
Let her know where exactly you're coming from with this issue of hate
That's very good advice, I think. Thankyou. I think it might be a good idea for me to tell her about what my mother said and how it felt and maybe.......she is old enough to hear about my feelings toward my father. I haven't really talked much about my childhood with my children. I guess that was my way of trying to appear "normal". I didn't want them to feel sorry for me and I don't like talking about it, to be honest. But it is important in regard to why I believe what I believe and maybe I should try to explain that some more?
I don't want my kids to have to go through such experiences in order to learn some things. I guess I want to protect them and I know that's ridiculous because we all have to learn in our own way and form our own opinions. I don't want to impose my opinion but just to share it and hope that they will take it into consideration. I think I do the same with them and what really pissed me off was that T didn't even ask my daughter what her opinion was. He just expressed his. He did that alot, come to think of it. :x
That doctor is an idiot and I'm not sure if a letter to him will make a difference. It might not be very satisfying to you either, as he may not even respond to it.
Thankyou Penny. Ofcourse, I agree with you. I feeeeeeeeeel like I want to write him a letter but I don't intend to. I feeeeeeeeeeeeel like giving him the duct treatment, but I don't intend to do that either. I just feel really mad, when I think about some of the things he said and his tone, his facial expression and how I felt and the look on my daughter's face (of shock and confusion, it seemed too) and I am angry with myself......for not doing something about it back then......for not reporting him.......for not confronting him.......and I wonder how many other people he has done similar stuff to or still does and keeps making a profit off?? I feel weak and stupid for not standing up to him but I guess I have to empathise with myself too because my relationship with my daughter was my priority and I decided he just wasn't helping or worth wasting my energy on.
It's helping to just say all this here. It's getting it out of my head and onto this screen, which is better than keeping it in and letting it cook. I don't want my anger to grow into hate so I'm choosing to express it here. Not just toward him but toward myself too. Thankyou for pointing this out though Penny, about the letter, because I am not serious about writing a letter and it's good that you mentioned it. I think it would be a useless thing to do now and I don't think I would feel better afterward and I doubt he would respond in any way that would help me (although I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and think he might choose to do that).
The message exceeds the maximum allowed length (20000 characters).
Hahahahaha!! First time that's happened! Ok. I guess I'll have to break this into two eh? :D
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Sugarbear: Thankyou for your kind words. I'm sorry that your mother uses words to hurt you with such blatent disregard for your feelings. How very hurtful and cruel!! ((((((((Sugarbear))))))), no child, even as an adult, deserves to be treated like that from their parent. What a shameful load your mother must keep!
Her words to you sound very sick.......like she is very sick...inside. I'm so sorry that you get to be the receptacle for her use. Talk about totally disrespecting you!! Her behaviour is a severe manifestation of something very nasty. I'm so sorry you have had to endure her mouth.
I would rather hear "I'm angry with you" or "I hate what you did." It is a subtle shift and acknowledges the feeling, but does not become an open attack on the other person. With those statements, it brings the anger out in the open, and should be possible to discuss why it upset the person and try to figure out what to do to fix it.
It's amazing how different some people turn out to be than their parents. You certainly show no sign of being like her. And you have described very clearly what has not been demonstrated to you. How wonderful that you have learned so much!! No kidding eh? Acknowledge the feeling and express what behaviour is upsetting!! What a lovely idea!! :D
I'm so glad you and your H have found eachother and are able to communicate so well. That is wonderful to hear! You have both broken the cycle of abuse. That is so inspiring!!
it is clear to me that my mother just doesn't want or see the need to change how she communicates her anger to me. She doesn't value our relationship enough to try to fix what is wrong on her end.
Sorry for the hurt this must cause, Sugarbear. I think this is a sign of illness. I mean it! Something isn't right when a mother shows no desire to communicate good feelings to her child/children. There is a broken switch somewhere, imo.
I've explained in very simple terms how saying that (and using curse words or nasty names) hurts me, so apparently she does it now on purpose.
There is a sickness present when a child, adult or not, explains something like this to her mother and her mother ignors the explanation, ignors the feelings expressed, ignors the request to refrain from doing it and continues to behave the same way, inflicting more of the same on the child, if you ask me.
Sorry ((((((((Sugarbear)))))))) I wish there were a cure. :(
I guess that is the problem - is the objective to resolve the issue or to hurt and punish?
Absolutely. Also, is it to express what one feels with or without regard for anyone else?
Thankyou for your 2 cents. It's worth a lot more than that to me. :D
Hi Moonlight. You said: but i went the other way so careful with words
Can one really be too careful with words? I mean, choosing our words with care......can that ever be a bad thing? I guess, if people are in a hurry and waiting for/wanting a quick a reply. Or like in my case.......in shock/confusion.......with the T........yes, I like to choose my words carefully. I try not to react but to be careful about what I say to people. I try not to assume. I find myself going over my reactions (in my head) and questioning whether or not I'm hearing correctly or assuming something or judging too quickly or on and on and .......
yes. I guess I can be to careful with words. Maybe it's better, sometimes, to just be less controlled and .....what I call......open the mouth first and think later??? Maybe not. I don't know. It's not like any of us will behave perfectly all of the time. It's just that being careful with words, because they do have such power to hurt sometimes, seems like the best idea, imo. For now, anyway. :roll: I'm still looking for the grey areas. A happy medium. ok....it seems like the best idea.....most of the time?? Does that seem reasonable?
I'm so flippin' reasonable I could kick myself in the butt sometimes. I need to give myself permission to be unreasonable, I think, maybe?? :roll: It's what Portia asked me once:
"Why do you always have to be the sane one??"
Thankyou, Portia. Ya. Why? I just end up feeling frustrated that I seem like the only reasonable person sometimes. Why not give up and join the crowd?? Oh oh------that group think thingy again! Nevermind. :arrow:
i guess if you can see whats behind the words not just the words themselves
That is very wise, Moonlight. I find it hard to stop reacting and think about what might be behind the words sometimes (I did with that T. I was just feeling shock and confusion and sort of frozen. ---behind my reaction?? Fear maybe? Afraid he might be right? Afraid it might be ok to say "I hate you" sometimes and thus what I've been trying to teach my children is completely wrong? Maybe some of that too?)
....and behind his (T's)words: as has been suggested........it's ok to have strong feelings? ......don't try to silence other people's right to voice their feelings how they choose.....it's fun to make you feel small and vunerable and nullified........ I'm having a great time and earning an income too! .......or......
I think it's ok to say: "I hate you" and I'm making sure your daughter hears my opinion too.....other opinions in the world besides yours.......because I'm in a position to do that .......whatever.
i sure am careful with words my n parent got me thur the heart with words so many times i can not count
I'm sorry that you had to go through that (((((((((Moonlight))))))))). I think another cycle is broken by your being careful with your words, especially to your children. Way to go!! I'm so glad. They are lucky to have a mom who tries so hard.
Jac said: I firmly believe you hate the act and not the person.
I'm with you on that Jac. I don't really feel anger toward the T or my mother but I'm not happy with their behaviour. I love my mother (she's deceased) and I don't think the T is a bad person. I just think he chose to behave more like a theif than a therapist. I do think he enjoyed his position of power and that's not good. He seemed like a pleasant enough person, just a little slimey around the edges. People can and do change, so I haven't written him off. Maybe someone with more stamina than I will deal with him in a way that might induce change?? I hope so.
Sela, what your mother said to you was very painful, I imagine, especially to a young girl, still trying to find herself.
Yes, it was, thankyou for acknowledging that so precisely Jac. It was also deeply painful because it was my mother who said it. I do understand that she was angry and frustrated and upset and human and all of that. I also understand that she never did face up and acknowledge what she said or how it effected me. I think that is a big part of pain for me. If the person, at least, acknowledges afterward that they did behave badly, they are sorry for causing hurt, they intend to try harder not to do that any more......that gives me something soothing and healing to apply to my wound. Otherwise, I am left to deal with my wounds in whatever way I find comforting and that, especially for a teen, may not always be the wisest or healthiest ways.
I agree with you that we all need to own our feelings, maybe think about where they are coming from, about what behaviour is causing them, and then express them in such a way as to communicate that.
Then, it is up to the other person to acknowledge our feelings and express theirs. Explain their behaviour. Apologise for their behaviour. Or ignor all of that and just keep on doing whatever it is they're doing.
And ya.......the T could have tried to get some or all of this into the conversation instead of just stating his opinion that is is acceptable to use those words...."I hate you". And you're right, I bet.......my daughter might have realized she doesn't hate anyone but instead their behaviour (which, as I said above, she wasn't expressing "I hate you" at all. I was saying about my belief during that conversation).
Thanks Jac, for making this important distinction. It's important to me, anyway.
Hoppy said: For a parent to say that to a child is brutal. Beyond that, it's profoundly immature and reckless. I am so sorry you even have that memory.
Thankyou Hoppy. Your words are like a giant hug. I'm sorry so many of us have so many painful memories. You probably have your share too. (((((((Hoppy))))))))) I'm sorry for whatever those are too Hoppy.
speaking those words can hurt someone even more than if you hit them, and it's something that can hurt them for years and years and years.
Isn't this true? I know it hurts to recall those words. I bet it hurts Sugarbear to hear and recall the words her mother uses. Words can really hurt! What kind of T encourages a child to use such hurtful words??? Telling them it's "ok" to use them??? This guy wasn't a new grad either! The more I think about it.....the more I agree with myself!! (hahahahaha!! :shock: :mrgreen: and I keep laughing at myself too, because it's the only way I feel really sane!!).
It also strikes me as a STUPID thing to say
It strikes me a s stupid thing to teach a teen to say in a therapy session supposedly occuring to enhance communication. Or a brilliant thing to say, if one's goal is to widen a rift?? :evil: Ok. I smell the fumes now!!
From a child to a mother, forgivable. Kids don't learn for a long time how to articulate more subtle feelings, or express anger responsibly. For a mother to say it to a child, unbearable.
Yes, I agree. Another important distinction. The child might say such a thing because they hear it somewhere, perhaps on tv, or wherever. The child is learning and doesn't know the pain that words cause because the child hasn't had the experience of such vile expressions directed at them. So the child doesn't realize the power of those words or the hurt they cause.
The child, on the receiving end, me......learns this lesson pretty quick. So ya....that child doesn't use those words by choice (some might go ahead and seek revenge, strike back, use even more hurtful words, think it's ok to do because their parent does it, etc).
By saying: "I hate you" to one's own child, the parent is not only attacking the very core of that child's self.....but also.....teaching the child to direct words......AT.....people, rather than use them as an expression of feelings and what's upsetting them.
I may have overcompinsated I think. I tried to begin every correction with: "I love you but I don't like the way you are behaving......or what you said.......or what you did etc". I wanted my kids to know it wasn't them....their little souls I was unhappy with....and actually....that I love them no matter what.....and that what they said or did was not acceptable, imo.
Lucky me. It's probably time to congratulate myself because I sure did not learn to parent like that from my parents. OK.....I'll give myself a point. 8)
Thankyou Hoppy for recognizing the extent to which the pain of such words can run. Anger isn't the only feeling that grows if kept contained, ignored, buried, or denied. I think hurt can get pretty big too, especially after so many years. Maybe that's why this is starting to come to the surface for me? Maybe I'm starting to feel safe here and able to express my hurt because I know others, like you Hoppy, will come along and acknowledge my feelings and let me know that you care, by bothering to think and post. Thankyou so much for that.
But...it seems your mother WAS a child at the time she said that to you.
Probably very true. She was acting like a child who didn't know any better. Part of the problem for me is that I did empathise very much with what my mother endured, which was not nice, and so I forgave her without ever voicing how her words hurt. Even though I didn't know the term "projection", I knew that was what she was doing.......putting her anger and frustration on.....or taking it out on.........me. I think she did such things because she was losing control of her own reactions. There are all kinds of explanations for her behaviour and I can think of lot's of them.
But I need to acknowledge my own pain and hurt and how I've carried that around for so many years. I pretty much devalued it myself. Her pain was just so much bigger than mine. Anything she did was nothing in comparison with what she withstood. She didn't mean to hurt me she just exploded with emotion.
Yada yada.
What I haven't really spoke of is that she was an adult and could have, later, taken responsibility for her behaviour. I've done it. I've said things I regret and apologised to my children for behaving badly. Why didn't she? Why didn't she ever say: "I'm sorry I said I hate you. I didn't mean it. I was angry and frustrated and I should never have said that. It was hurtful and I acted very badly. I'm so sorry and I'll try not to ever say that again"?
There are probably lot's of reasons. But no excuse, really.
I think the same thing about that T. There might be lot's of reasons he said what he did, but no excuse.
It wasn't therapeutic. It did cause a bigger rift and I had to work harder to close that rift, which I'm glad of that.
Bless you for turning it into an act of restraint and love toward your children.
Thankyou Hoppy. The same can be said for anyone here who is trying to do the same. It's easy to just blurt out what comes into our head without thinking about what harm it might cause. Bravo to those who are trying to ignor what their parents did, if that's what they did, and do differently......be more careful about what they do! It's not easy but it's sure important, imo.
Bean: Do you think that when you said: "I hate you to people", you may have done so in response to something they said or did?
when he did something I perceived as attacking my inner being.
Wouldn't it be clearer to say: "I feel like you're attacking my inner being when you do blank."?
I don't know. I just think it's defeating to do the same thing back. It doesn't seem like that will ever resolve anything.
I do hate.
I believe you. I'm sorry for whatever has happened to generate this strong feeling. I'm sorry for everything and everyone that hurt you. I think it must have been awful for you and I don't like the result at all.
I'd much rather hear about what happened and hope that by you talking about it.....getting your feelings out....it might help. I'm willing to read pages and pages if you feel like writing them. I'd rather spend hours reading about what's happened than the alternative......which is leave things as they are and you just go on feeling this hate and possibly.....acting on it.
When I've said "I hate you" to anyone, it was to get revenge for what I thought they were doing to me.
I admire your honesty in saying this. I think whoever did what to cause this much anger deserves revenge. I, personally, choose to leave revenge to my higher power. I also wonder, if revenge works because you say you "feel hate" not you felt it, which makes me think the revenge didn't work that well. Maybe not?
The beautiful thing about the world is that we all have different opinions. I respect your right to yours and I humbly ask you to consider mine. If it's ok to say: "I hate you", where do you draw the line? Is is possible that your Nmother isn't evil........just sick??? I don't know. I really don't. I understand how angry I feel when people behave in horrendous ways. I know what you mean when you seek revenge.
It's just that for me.....seeking revenge means I have to behave like them and I don't want that. I don't want to be like those who go out and do whatever they think they must in order to appease their own feelings, without regard for anyone else. Isn't that what one must do in order to seek sufficient revenge??
Those times have given us an opportunity to say "I'm sorry" and mean it and feel this as well, so I'm not sad or unhappy still that they happened. Although at the time, it made me quite unhappy.
I'm glad you were able to take responsibility for your behaviour at those times and also that you have come away from them with something positive......seeing it as an opportunity for you. It's not up to me to decide what is right for everyone.
I guess I just feel strongly that I should have first dibs on what severe behaviours are taught to my children. That's why, really, I think this is bugging me.
Do I have that right? I mean, how much influence do I really have? Just because my mother said it to me and it hurt....doesn't mean every time someone else says it is always going to be wrong. :?
Did it have any effect on your Nmom's behaviour? Did she stop and seem to pay attention? If so, maybe that was the right thing to say to her??
I think it's OK to hate evil.
We agree on that one, Bean! Thanks for your post. You've got me thinking some more.
Thankyou to anyone and everyone who has read all of this. I appreciate it very much.
:D Sela
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Hi Sela,
As soon as I read that your daughter has gone away to university, I thought, "Aha!" That may be what got you to thinking about your relationship with her and the former communication problem. Our children growing up and moving away from us.... For me that has been a sad and melancholy time. Most of the time, I can look back on my life and see that the ups and downs correspond with the changes that have been going on at the same time. With the goodbyes. And with each goodbye, if I don't realize right away that that is why I feel out of sorts, or whatever unpleasant feeling I'm having, or inappropriate feeling in some cases, if I can remind myself of a previous time that I felt the same way, and remember who I was saying goodbye to at the time..... often that cures me and settles my heart down for a time. Because that therapist had such a deep impact on you at a time when maybe on some level you thought you were losing your daughter, or might lose her. Now, a similar theme. She is moving away from you :( . And your anger about what the T did to you before is naturally going to be stirred up again. That's how it has worked for me anyway.
Now, this is how I sometimes can make sense of feeling angry about people doing to me what that T did to you. If he had somehow managed to disguise his character better, and you hadn't felt so clearly the unfairness, well he might have also managed to keep you in therapy much longer than necessary. What he did was blatant and it helped you make a nearly instant decision. You were both better off without him. I suppose it would have been nice if it had been on your terms and without him disrespecting you in front of your daughter, but I think maybe he had a personality problem himself and maybe he did you a favor in the long run. You will never doubt your decision to discontinue with him!!!
About your not responding at the moment of the insults--the way you describe why you measure your words makes sense to me. It is part of who you are. I've always been one for flying off the handle and while it might be satisfying for the moment, and quite entertaining to people who watch or hear the story later, I often wish I had maintained more dignity or taken the high road. Some people are not even worth your deepest feelings and convictions anyway. I truly think anything intelligent you might have said to him would have gone right over his head. That comment about Buddhism speaks volumes about the guy!!! Definitely an idiot.
I like your measured words, Sela. Hey, I even quoted you!! So, imo, it's just not necessary to even consider trying to change that about you.
Pennyplant
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Hiya Sela,
That T’s comments about faith….I think it’s all been said. What a jerk. He got paid for this? It sure ain’t a Just World. I agree with most of what you say but that’s no talking point is it? :D So I thought about what I disagree with.
We can all choose to use restraint or allow ourselves to lose control.
I don’t think everyone can. I think some people are too crazy to restrain themselves? Is it a conscious choice, at that moment? Not sure. Yes, the brain chooses….it chooses to go “whoooooof!” because otherwise …. it will overload and kill the host body? (haha ‘host’ :shock: body eh? Boy am i sick, and I know it! :D) Seriously, I think some reactions are so strong that to deny them might cause heart attacks etc. Okay, if we’re talking about the urge to murder someone else, maybe a heart attack would be preferable? I guess I don’t think we’re all as in control of our brains as we like to think we are!
I’ve experienced it…that loss of control, loss of higher brain function, when the red mist descends. Emotional brain is in control. I listened to a murderer talk about it, one who murdered not for any gain, simply out of pure emotional aggression. This is not an excuse of course…..
About ‘Why do you always have to be the sane one?’ – not suggesting you join the crowd! Suggesting you voice your own strong opinions forcefully occasionally, in a controlled way. Bit like a verbal version of your physical self-defence tactics? Imagine if you’d have taken that T to task at the time, in a controlled, assertive way. Looped him verbally over your shoulder. I agree he disrespected you and well, sometimes people don’t respond to our particular verbal style. Empathy can be adapting our verbal style to match the other person?
It’s not okay to say “I hate you” however; it might be necessary. It depends. There are no black and whites? It might be okay to say “I hate you” when someone has done something terrible to you. It might be the only way of voicing your self.
Has your D ever said “I hate you” to anyone, to you? How about “I despise/dislike/abhor/detest/loathe you”? Are these words of equal emotional value to you?
If someone says “I hate you” to me, am I in pain? Nope. I think they’re nuts. Sad but not my problem. Haha no I’m not that cold and cruel, I’m trying to make a point. You said the words cause pain. It depends doesn’t it?
“I love you” is a strong statement too. Do you say that it is very important not to use this phrase unless you really mean it? Not to use this phrase profligately because it will devalue it; or the listener might get the wrong idea? And that could cause pain later ….. “but you said you loved me!!!! how could you say/do this if you love me?” kinda thing.
About your mother’s pain being so much bigger than yours. Yes there is a level of comparison. I’m not starving or imprisoned and compared to x, I have less pain. However, when we’re talking mental pain, the brain will do what the brain does to survive – deny, project, dissociate etc. Can you really compare her mental pain to yours and say she was kind of more deserving of pity, compassion, excuses…..than you?
Maybe her pain to you was bigger. But she didn’t feel it like that, she didn’t see it like that. You are seeing it like that - your judgement. She got rid of some of her pain by sending it your way. Who did you have to give it to? Sorry Sela, I don’t think her pain was bigger than yours. I think that’s you excusing her behaviour in some way? Sorry. You don’t have to excuse your mother anything. Not in your head, what’s in your head is yours and you’re free to do what you will with it.
“I hated my mother when she said ‘I hate you’ to me!” It would be okay to think that wouldn’t it?? I think it’s okay to think anything. Words and actions are different, we agree there.
Hey… :idea:..yes….that’s what I see differently about this board. It’s not words person-to-person, face to face, real-time…..it’s more like feelings and thoughts sometimes…it’s not real/real it’s more …. Hmmmm… brain real! Haha. :D Can you explain me better please? Weird morning stuff.
I’m impressed with the word count! That would have freaked me out, another automated message telling me I’m a bad person!! :x I’m joking. 8)
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Hi Sela,
I was raised that to say "I hate you" is evil. All emotion was evil and all negative thoughts were evil. However my mums theory was that she could say and feel all those things but we wern't.
I never said it to her but I sure as hell felt that towards her. Those hurt and angry feelings that were anable to be expressed to her cause me alot of confusion and heart ache. My T said that to express hate is an emotion and it is healthy to express. She also said that just because you may feel like you "hate" someone for a while it doesn't mean that you don't love them.
I think it would be confusing for you to hear it from your mum because if it were me, I didn't feel love from my mum and when she said things like that, it would confirm my belief that she didn't love me enough. Every child needs love.
I think that to feel hate towards someone at times is healthy but the way to express it can be hurtful to that person, so I think when to actually be at the point of saying it out loud to someone, would probably be if the person is angry and deeply hurt.
I think a child saying it to a parent is healthy and it is a way of expressing hurt or mixed emotions. I think its better for a child to express saying that than not expressing anything at all. Then the parents can talk to the child about whats really bothering them and learn better ways of expressing hurt feeling rather than saying " I hate you".
So I do think its best to refrain from saying that to someone but to acknowledge that negative emotion about that person and work out a healthier way to deal with those feelings whether its talking to that person about how you felt when they did such and such or doing something else. But I think to deny or repress angry feelings is worst than saying "I hate you." Denying or not having an outlet to express can cause resentment and bitterness towards that person.
Anyway thats my view
Jessica :)
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I'll try to keep this one under 20,000 words ok? :oops: :oops: Has anyone else ever written that much in one post??? Hope all of your eyes are not too strained after reading it all. Thankyou, again.
Bean: Maybe the expression of hate is not appropriate because then you're taking thoughts and feelings and putting them into words, which is dangerously close to action.
I don't think I'm arguing our right to express ourselves. I think I'm reminding us all of our responsibility to do so in a reasonable manner that doesn't cause more harm. I don't even really mean to remind anyone here even. I think I want concrete proof that saying: "I hate you" is a good thing!! ( :D Like I'll accept it?? Hahahaha! Probably not!!)
We used to hate adulterers and criminals enough to throw them in a pen with lions and bring our families to watch the spectacle on Saturday afternoons. We've evolved since then and I really believe we are bound to evolve some more. We aren't just animals reacting or going on instinct, we can think and make choices.
Perhaps sheltering from the knowledge that hate exists (even within them) is an act of control on your part.
I don't believe I've sheltered them from that at all. We've discussed all kinds of stuff. I don't think I try to control my children but I do try to guide and encourage them. I don't think those two are the same? Maybe close? I don't know. I taught them to say: "I feel......." or "I'm mad, sad, happy whatever because whoever did whatever" and not "You anything...".
In fact, I think that's a pretty good rule for any parent to tell their kids. But telling kids something is in my experience, less valuable then just teaching them by example. So maybe they already know this about you, and it's likely they do Sela!
Thanks Bean. I feel sane again. :mrgreen:
Penny: As soon as I read that your daughter has gone away to university, I thought, "Aha!"
Sorry Penny. I should have been clearer. My daughter moved to her dad's house a number of years ago and has been away at university for 2 years now. This isn't a recent separation. We went to therapy to help enhance our communication at a difficult time. This was before she went off to school.
the parents can talk to the child about whats really bothering them and learn better ways of expressing hurt feeling rather than saying " I hate you".
I think the parents can do this before it gets to the point of anyone using words to inflict pain. I think it begins when when they're really little.
But I think to deny or repress angry feelings is worst than saying "I hate you."
I agree. The trick is parenting in such a way so as they feel comfortable to say what they feel to begin with and hopefully it won't get to a point of them repressing their feelings or if there is a problem happening....to seek help (but be picky about who you choose!!!! :evil: learn from my mistakes!!).
You will never doubt your decision to discontinue with him!!!
Thankyou Penny. Very true.
Some people are not even worth your deepest feelings and convictions anyway. I truly think anything intelligent you might have said to him would have gone right over his head.
Thanks for this. You're probably right. And thanks for saying you don't think I need to change my word measuring. Sometimes I feel like I can be assertive and firm and other times, people intimidate me, like that doc did, and I feel like a fool. That should be a warning to me that they aren't worth my deepest feelings, as you say. Thanks.
Portia: I guess I don’t think we’re all as in control of our brains as we like to think we are!
I agree with this to a certain extent. Nothing is absolute. But basically speaking, we do have the power to control ourselves. We are not big emotional balloons without brains. Restraint isn't such a bad thing, sometimes. I guess, I just personally believe that "I hate you" is hitting below the belt. It may be a strong feeling that needs to be expressed, no doubt, but does it need to be expressed AT anyone?? The other person's feelings must be considered totally worthless and of no value, right?
Emotional brain is in control. I listened to a murderer talk about it, one who murdered not for any gain, simply out of pure emotional aggression. This is not an excuse of course…..
No it's not. But people like to use it as an excuse. "I lost control". I wonder how many times that's been said in court. My parents lost control too. Other people's parents/partners have done the same. Or have they?
Isn't there a split second when a person decides to act? Have you ever walked away? I have. I'm no super woman. I just choose. So can anyone, imo. I don't buy "my emotional brain was in control" really. Isn't the truth....the person just didn't restrain themselves. Chose not to bother. Chose to allow themselves to do whatever.....say ...whatever? I don't believe they had/have noooo control over their own behaviour. If they aren't in charge, who is
About ‘Why do you always have to be the sane one?’ – not suggesting you join the crowd! Suggesting you voice your own strong opinions forcefully occasionally, in a controlled way.
Am I doing that yet?? :D :D
I get it. Thanks P.
Has your D ever said “I hate you” to anyone, to you? How about “I despise/dislike/abhor/detest/loathe you”? Are these words of equal emotional value to you?
No. Not to me. I don't think to others either. My daughter expresses herself and her feelings quite well, I think. She'll tell me: "I feel blank about blank" and seems to know what she feels and what event has contributed.
You said the words cause pain. It depends doesn’t it?
Ok Portia. Maybe not every single time the words are said to every single person will they hurt but generally speaking, it is a pretty painful thing to hear, for many, don't you think? Ofcourse it depends on who.
I love you” is a strong statement too. Do you say that it is very important not to use this phrase unless you really mean it? Not to use this phrase profligately because it will devalue it; or the listener might get the wrong idea? And that could cause pain later ….. “but you said you loved me!!!! how could you say/do this if you love me?” kinda thing.
Well.....actually.....yes. I don't use those words unless I mean them. So for me, those are powerful words.
I don't say how could you do this or that if you love me. I don't expect perfection. Just reasonable. Reasonable is good, I think. Usually. Have a left enough grey area while firmly stating my point? ( :D)
My questions wasn't: Is it ever ok to say "I hate you"? it was: Is it ok? I mean usually. As a rule. On a regular basis sort of?? :shock: (I hope not!!)
Yes there is a level of comparison
I think this is what I was trying to say. My mother endured many, many years of physical and emotional abuse. Compared to my short life, at the time, her pain just seemed bigger to me.....longer.......more intense. I could see she was really .......sick.......from it. I didn't feel that far gone. I had pain, yessiree, but I wasn't losing it! She was. :( :( Everyone has a limit.
Can you really compare her mental pain to yours and say she was kind of more deserving of pity, compassion, excuses…..than you?
I can. But I have a feeling you won't buy it. :D
No, ofcourse not, when you put it that way. It's just that I felt like I still had plenty of hope....my life ahead of me.....soon I'd be gone from there....and I would get "well", where she.......was going downhill. There was no coming back from where she was. And she went. :(
She got rid of some of her pain by sending it your way. Who did you have to give it to? Sorry Sela, I don’t think her pain was bigger than yours.
Thankyou Portia. Bigger probably isn't the right word. It's like the same thing I said to you, once. The old frog in the pot of slowly warming water. Pain is pain, whether it is incidious or sudden. Her pain was pretty big. My pain was big too. I didn't have anyone to help me, you're right. Except God.
I think that’s you excusing her behaviour in some way?
No. I think her behaviour was terrible. But I do understand that she was mentally and emotionally ill and physically depleted, a long way from perfect, at the time. She projected. It was wrong and she could have taken responsibility for it later. She didn't and that is really, in a way....worse. I know she didn't hate me. She loved me. She said so plenty and showed it in lot's of ways. But she didn't show it with that sentence or in the time afterward. But......as I say......she was losing it. So really, how can I expect her to behave "normally"?? It seems silly to expect a diabetic to be able to eat sugar cubes doesn't it?
I didn't hate her when she said that to me. I felt hurt. Rejected. Discarded. Bad. Until I realized it was the "abuse" talking (did I just coin a phrase??? :D). I don't mean to joke. But isn't that what it is? My mother would have been such a different person had she not lived for all those years being abused. She acted badly but she wasn't bad. Talking about it has helped. Thanks.
I’m impressed with the word count! That would have freaked me out, another automated message telling me I’m a bad person!!
Ya, well my first thought was: "Oh no!! I'll have to start deleting stuff!!" :shock: :shock: :? :? :roll:
Jessica: I was raised that to say "I hate you" is evil.
Now this seems like the extreme. I think it can and usually is.....hurtful and there are ways to express anger without doing that. But evil?? That would make whoever says this.......evil!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
(((((((((Jessica))))))).
I never said it to her but I sure as hell felt that towards her. Those hurt and angry feelings that were anable to be expressed to her cause me alot of confusion and heart ache.
I'm sorry for this Jessica. I really think you can go ahead now and get that all out, if you want to. You don't have to keep it inside forever.
That's what I wanted to do and have done here.....in this thread. I couldn't go to that T and express my feelings to him. I don't want his memory in my head any more, so I had to get it out. This was a good way. Go ahead, if you want to. See if you can top my 50, 60000??? character post!! :D No one will mind!!
I didn't feel love from my mum and when she said things like that, it would confirm my belief that she didn't love me enough. Every child needs love.
I'm so sorry. That is very sad and it makes me feel angry for your mom's behaviour!! Talk some more if you want, really.
I do think its best to refrain from saying that to someone but to acknowledge that negative emotion about that person and work out a healthier way to deal with those feelings whether its talking to that person about how you felt when they did such and such or doing something else
I think so too. Thanks Jessica, for posting. Please talk more if you like. (((((((Jessica)))))))
Sela
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Hiya Sela, I don’t know how much I’ve written and I don’t want to know! But no, I’ve not had that particular message. I’m going to go into detail about one thing. It feels quite raw some of this so that’s a sort of warning to anyone reading. It’s not comfortable.
Isn't there a split second when a person decides to act? Have you ever walked away? I have. I'm no super woman. I just choose. So can anyone, imo. I don't buy "my emotional brain was in control" really. Isn't the truth....the person just didn't restrain themselves. Chose not to bother. Chose to allow themselves to do whatever.....say ...whatever?
That split second…yes…and I have walked away, many times, made the choice. What about the few times I haven’t I wonder? (I won’t include times when I was in an externally-caused chemically-altered state…but as for internally-caused chemically-altered state…who knows?!) I can remember doing some things as a young adult; it’s difficult remembering my mental state – but in that split second I would say “I wasn’t thinking” – what does that mean? I’m trying to go back to specific incidents: throwing a glass against a wall in a club – right now I have no idea why I did that, I can’t find the reason. I was about 20 and can now see a picture of me doing it. In this picture I feel about 3/4. The action is an expression of anger, hurt and I would say voicelessness….I acted instead of speaking. Why didn’t I choose to speak, yell, walk away instead? Well….I didn’t walk away because…as far as I can remember .. there was nothing external to walk away from. Whatever was bugging me was inside me I feel. And I kind of knew that at a ‘control’ (higher thinking?) level. Something was inside me and it went down my arm and found the nearest object to throw. Yes it was me, but … what caused it?
I had one dissociating experience when I was 3/4/5 (where my rage, anger, confusion and probably terror took me into my silent mother’s watching eyes) and afterwards (back in me) I picked up a pen or pencil and threw it in anger on the floor. “Pick it up” he said. I wouldn’t. I was absolutely silent. “Pick it up” and again. The remembered moment lasted a very long time! And eventually I ‘broke’ and picked it up. Such a seemingly insignificant incident perhaps, but I felt broken, totally controlled, in his will. I had no option (if I wanted to live). I had no choices open to me. Children often don’t have any choices.
That bastard. I hated him right then. I still hate him in that moment - his actions? No, I can honestly say I hate him in that moment. He wasn’t my parent, he was someone who had just turned up and taken over. Was controlling my mother. This was a man who used to love his male cats. They used to lie on his legs. Sometimes he would have a cat on his chest and would put his forehead up against the cat’s head and would stare into the cat’s eyes for ages; presumably trying to out-stare the cat? Nutter. He was quite nuts and I wonder how many functioning people are.
I don't believe they had/have noooo control over their own behaviour. If they aren't in charge, who is
A 3/4 year old, who doesn’t yet have a brain that reasons, a brain that is capable of logical cause and effect thought and can work out alternatives? Yes it’s still ‘them’ in control, but do we expect a child to choose between saying “I hate you” and walking away? A child can’t walk away when it is still dependent? What is it like to be 3 or 4 anyway. ?
I’m getting more convinced that every time I’ve “lost it” I’ve been right back to that experience. I have had big urges to throw stuff and to destroy stuff when I’ve been rage-emotional. I’ve wanted to paint words on the walls here (my beautifully painted walls!) in two foot high letters in black paint. What words…”go away leave me alone”. Many people do I guess. We even say “throwing our toys out of the pram” when someone gets angry.
She loved me. She said so plenty and showed it in lot's of ways.
I’m glad Sela, I am glad.
But she didn't show it with that sentence or in the time afterward. But......as I say......she was losing it. So really, how can I expect her to behave "normally"?? It seems silly to expect a diabetic to be able to eat sugar cubes doesn't it?
Did she decline after this, did she – here comes an old-fashioned expression – go mad? And if we ‘go mad’ do we still have reasoned choices about how we interact with others? Isn’t madness something that can happen to anyone at some point? Wasn’t I mad when I did those things?
Madness. I like the definition: insanity is not knowing the difference between what is in my head and what isn’t. Losing touch with reality. Hearing voices, seeing delusions. Many people are mad on this basis but it’s the severity I guess. And I think we can all have ‘moments of madness’, and we mean, insanity. It may have been an external chain of events which had triggered me, but I was reacting against something inside me, not directly against the external events.
I think when your mom said I hate you, she wasn’t in the reality right there, right then. I don’t think she was talking to you. I think maybe she was talking to her mother. I really don’t think it was ‘you’. Do you? You were there, I wasn’t, I don’t know.
I asked someone recently if they’d ever lost it – and I defined that as raging and losing control. They told me about the one event where in their terms they’d lost it. It was where someone had basically double-crossed them and they reacted to that person with a stream of words and actions – words and actions that related directly to the actual event, right then, in present-day reality. It sounded like justified rage (‘outrage’) to me. It didn’t sound as though what the person described was similar to my past experiences. There wasn’t that sense of not knowing why they had acted as they did, to me.
Maybe my rages were in-rage? I think I’m through with real-life rage now. It’s been five years so it’s looking good. Having read all this again, my, what I crazy one I look like to myself. Much better now thanks. :D
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Portia:
Thankyou for a wonderful , eye opening, truth-exposing post!! You are so right!
I don't know what high horse I thought I was on yesterday but most certainly, I'll climb down now. :oops: I don't mean to say that I am incapable of raging and saying hurtful things to anyone. Ofcourse I could. Ofcourse, I have. :oops: :oops:
I totally agree........there are moments of madness, I bet, in most people's lives. Times when we act without thinking or simply behave in ways we really don't understand. Thankyou so much for pointing that out and speaking from your personal experience. I don't feel brave enough today to do that. :oops:
Maybe, another day. :arrow:
There are grey areas and any of us might walk away or "not think". Good point.
That bastard. I hated him right then. I still hate him in that moment - his actions? No, I can honestly say I hate him in that moment. He wasn’t my parent, he was someone who had just turned up and taken over. Was controlling my mother.
I'm so sorry this happened Portia. You are definately entitled to express your feelings and they are valid. Probably, any child would feel the same or similar feelings in the same situation. And......the rage....that hate....evolved very quickly, for you too, probably, because you had no way to express your anger and other feelings??? Not fair. Not fair at all. :(
A 3/4 year old, who doesn’t yet have a brain that reasons, a brain that is capable of logical cause and effect thought and can work out alternatives? Yes it’s still ‘them’ in control, but do we expect a child to choose between saying “I hate you” and walking away? A child can’t walk away when it is still dependent? What is it like to be 3 or 4 anyway. ?
I totally agree. If children are taught from a very young age how to express their feelings and that it is safe to do so, that gives them an edge though, I think. But I know what you mean. It's not like I would have punished my child for saying: "I hate you" had she said it. I would have explained that those words hurt me and I understand that she is probably feeling very, very angry and asked could she say what happened or what I did or said etc.
In your case, it doesn't seem likely that that option of expressing much at all was present. I'm sorry that that happened to you, Portia, and no wonder you had bouts of rage that seemed to explode from no where.
I think I got a lot of mine out when I was really young and doing martial arts and playing music 'till my fingy's hurt. But I'm no angel and have most certainly behaved in ways I can't explain some times and/or acted without thinking.
Did she decline after this, did she – here comes an old-fashioned expression – go mad?
I think this was a gradual process that began when she hit menopause and progressed until the day she died. She had periods of complete "madness" and near the end......was practically consumed with paranoia, hearing stuff specifically directed at her........coming out of the tv, the radio and even the loud speaker in the grocery store. To be honest......it scared the tar outta me (as a teenager and even as a young adult).
My father terrorized her every possible moment.
I should..........hate him. But I don't honestly feel that rage or deep, deep anger or whatever hate is.
He was a lot sicker than her.
Madness. I like the definition: insanity is not knowing the difference between what is in my head and what isn’t. Losing touch with reality. Hearing voices, seeing delusions. Many people are mad on this basis but it’s the severity I guess. And I think we can all have ‘moments of madness’, and we mean, insanity.
And for some reason I have no idea why........I guess I realized this, even at a young age. I'd get mad, but then.....I'd think: "But he's nuts and really....can't help it". Again......not an excuse but I guess I understood it......definately wanted away from it.......and the feelings it all generated were more .....pity...than anything.
I think when your mom said I hate you, she wasn’t in the reality right there, right then. I don’t think she was talking to you. I think maybe she was talking to her mother. I really don’t think it was ‘you’. Do you? You were there, I wasn’t, I don’t know.
Maybe she was talking to my father. She did look crazed and I didn't get that, I don't think, at that particular moment. Right then, I think I did just feel my own feelings and not take pity on her. When I think about that.......feeling my own feelings.......left a deep hurt. Maybe I'd have been better to feel pity for her, at that moment and do as you said you would: "think: "you're nuts"?
It sounded like justified rage (‘outrage’) to me. It didn’t sound as though what the person described was similar to my past experiences. There wasn’t that sense of not knowing why they had acted as they did, to me.
So are you saying, in this case, the person had a choice? That's kind of what I think I was thinking when I said I bet a lot of people use "losing it" as an excuse, in court. People are tricky. They can deceive. And none of us can get inside anyone else and really know.......what's going on...especially.....when they're describing past events, that we we're not present for.......getting our own feel for the situation. I don't know.
Nothing is absolute. That's my main statement today. I'm willing to change my mind and say that it might be ok to say: "I hate you" sometimes. It might be a "moment of madness" or deep rage emerging from some dark place. I'm still glad I tried to teach my kids to use some restraint, if at all possible. I know I've mentioned that we all have moments when we act without thinking and that no one is perfect or capable of always behaving perfectly. I think they know I love them no matter what.
It’s been five years so it’s looking good.
Glad to hear it. Some people, I think too, are born with a stronger temper than others. Is that the right way to say it?? We're all different and so how quickly we feel anger and over what......will differ too eh? Or is that learned?? I suppose it's possible but then.....I should have learned to rage like a maniac, at least once I was away from there?
The brain is an amazing device isn't it? The word "trigger" is pretty accurate when I think about rage and what might set it off.
I don't really feel rage or like raging too often. Every now and then though..... :twisted: :twisted:
Good thing for bongo drums and this board. ((((((((thanks Portia)))))))) for posting your truth.
:D Sela
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Hiya :D i was gone but this botherated my wee brain so I came back..
Right then, I think I did just feel my own feelings and not take pity on her. When I think about that.......feeling my own feelings.......left a deep hurt. Maybe I'd have been better to feel pity for her, at that moment and do as you said you would: "think: "you're nuts"?
...it was the phrase "Maybe I'd have been better to feel" that stuck in my head and well i couldn't just let it go could I? I bet i don't need to say a darn word do I?.....
Deep deep hurt (((((((((Sela))))))))) feelings are felt
I hope thinking about the reasons for someone else's actions might help us see our feelings and help us .... diminish the hurt we felt at the time, lessen the impact of the feelings, today. Or let us feel those feelings with full force today (that was a traumatic experience! full on hurt and pain Sela) and then - work them through. But do let them out and think when have you felt exactly like that since? That kind of hurt and pain as it felt with your mother - maybe you haven't but you know how trauma is repeated by being triggered by similar situations; the brain reacts as if it is back there etc.
Maybe I can do that with my example; but I can't see the reasons clearly for his behaviour. Maybe I'll work on that - and her behaviour too. I just don't know what i was being punished for!!!!! I have no idea, I have no memory of anything prior to what happened. Maybe I'll ask if she remembers it? There be bears alright. :shock: I'll live :D
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SelaPortiaPennySugarJacMoonJessicaBean... wow. What an extraordinary thread.
Sela, thank you for starting it and for your persistently eloquent weaving. And commitment.
Portia, your doggedness amazes me too. You work so hard it feels to me as though you BLAST through to new layers of insight.
I haven't had the energy to pitch in much, but just want to say how much respect you all inspire in me for the effort and elegance of this.
Hops
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Hiya back P:
I bet i don't need to say a darn word do I?.....
Truth? I had a feeling you would comment on that but I left it in because it's an honest thought. :shock:
But honestly....I was being honest. What I mean is......there is a point at which we can and do, sometimes, decide our reality. But that moment....when I felt that hurt and pain that was mine......could have.....would have maybe....been different for me....had I thought differently or thought first and not just felt.
Who the heck is capable of doing that all the time? I sure don't know anyone. My point is simply that in a way, I find it true that I can effect my reactions to stuff......when I think first. And like you said, Portia,
I think some people are too crazy to restrain themselves?
If someone says “I hate you” to me, am I in pain? Nope. I think they’re nuts. Sad but not my problem. Haha no I’m not that cold and cruel, I’m trying to make a point. You said the words cause pain. It depends doesn’t it?
Most of the time, I was able to think first and so the hurt, angry, confused feelings just didn't happen for me. I really did think they were both fairly "crazy" a lot of the time and I took pity on them both, more often than their words or actions to heart (my heart). Lucky me or I'd be a walking bomb, maybe eh?
But that time with my mother saying words that seemed to penetrate so deep, with such lightening speed, before my poor, over-taxed brain had a chance to boot up........well....thankyou Portia. Her words did hurt a lot and I appreciate you're acknowledging that and pointing out the importance of my really feeling it.
I hope thinking about the reasons for someone else's actions might help us see our feelings and help us .... diminish the hurt we felt at the time
Me too. And seeing my mother deteriorate into a shell full of fear and watching my father's actions.....which caused........it all.....does help diminish it. So does your big hug. Thankyou P.
That kind of hurt and pain as it felt with your mother - maybe you haven't but you know how trauma is repeated by being triggered by similar situations; the brain reacts as if it is back there etc.
Definately this has happened. Probably anyone who ever says: "I hate you" (other than my kids) to me, will be dealing with me........dealing with my mother!! Or might have......had you not reminded me to keep this in mind. Thanks Portia.
Ofcourse......my brain doesn't always cooperate and it goes blank too, sometimes. Like in the office with that T. All I did at that moment.....was feel......embarassed, insulted, belittled, whatever. If my good brain had of taken over, I might have considered other possible motives for his behaviour and I might have asked him.
"What do you mean, doc?"
I agree.....he was a jerk......but in some situations.......it might be my reacting to my feeling, instead of thinking..... that is actually the culprit. I might be misinterpreting or misunderstanding or misperceiving or judging incorrectly. That could happen!! :shock: :shock: :D :D (I hope you giggled......because I really am trying to be funny. :D It happens. It happens).
Maybe I can do that with my example; but I can't see the reasons clearly for his behaviour. Maybe I'll work on that - and her behaviour too.
It's not always an easy thing to see or even try to do. In a way, my situation was much easier to examine. The nutty behaviour was easy to define as nutty. Nobody else's parents acted like mine. They were abnormal, especially my father, but by my teenhood, my mother was seriously that way too. For you, maybe it wasn't so obvious? More confusing? Things were more subtle?
I just don't know what i was being punished for!!!!!
((((((((Portia))))))). Nothing. Zilch. Notta.
You were a child and and he was, like the doc, like my dad, in a position of power. You didn't have to do anything wrong for him to assert his power. He couldn't stand your expressing your feeling.
You were angry about something so you threw a pencil on the floor. Instead of him saying:
"Are you angry P? What's up?"
He asserts his power. He orders you to obey. He ignors your feeling and he uses his power to direct your next act..........to control........or else!!
:( :(
It's the unspoken "or else" that puts the biggest fear in a kid eh? We just don't know what might happen next?
Did you ever defy him? Did you ever say: "I hate you" to him? I can see why that might be very tempting and almost necessary (ok......I did say I'm willing to change my mind....didn't I?). Yes. I think it would have been ok........understandable.......reasonable......to say that to him. From your point of view (or my trying to feel from your point of view :D).
From his end: Was he used to children? Did he like them? Was he generally a patient person or was he a kind of......ruler over your mother too?
I bet he just wanted you out of the picture? Wanted your mother all to himself? Wanted you to just be a little flower, if he had to put up with you, and maybe wanted you to just stand around looking sweet and pretty and to be very....quiet?
How can I say that? I don't know the guy. I'm just guessing, I guess. I could be waaaaaaaay off.
sorry (((((((Portia))))))). I feel your deep pain over that incident too. I'll be away now until mid next week but I hope you too will "feel those feelings" and "work through them" and talk so more about them here, if it helps.
This thread has helped me a lot. I'm very grateful for everyone's point of view. Otherwise, I'd be stuck feeling just.......angry with a stupid T who really......can just go away from my head now......and live elsewhere! And the pain from what my mother said......it's really not there any more. I can recall it.....if I try but honestly......I cried and cried, after she said that, and wrote and wrote, and played and played and then......for the most part....just kept it as a reminder of .....for me........how not to behave. No one has said: "I hate you" to me since and if they ever do, hopefully I'll remember this thread and remind myself to be sure I'm not ....talking to my mother or something. :D And hopefully....also maybe I'll think to say: "Those are very hurtful words. You have a right to express your anger but also a responsibility to do so......in a reasonable manner....without using words as weapons. Wanna try again? Tell me what you feel?" (or some equally firm but strong......expression of my opinion :D ... a real voicing!!).
Hoppy: effort and elegance of this
I swear! Where do you come up with such wonderful terms? It doesn't feel elegant at all to me. It feels like more like mucking around in a puddle but thanks for saying that. You make it sound so lovely. Hey! Glad you're reading and sorry you don't have the energy. ((((((hope you're ok Hops))))))
Sela
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Hiya all
This a fabulous thread.... really thought provoking but I also find it amazing that everyone has given so much of themselves here.
I think the thing for me here is for a child to say to a parent "I hate you" is very different than a parent saying it to a child. Not 100% sure why, but I feel that a parent saying it to a child is much worse. Why??? Possibly because the parent should know better.... hmmmmmmmm.
I don't think I've ever told anyone I've hated them. I've thought it, especially about Mum when I was growing up, but never said it.
H&H xx
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H & H:
I don't think I've ever told anyone I've hated them
.
Why am I not One Tiny Little Iota surprised to hear this about you????
You are a glow on my horizon, you know.
(((((H&H)))))
Hops
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Hi Sela, thanks for asking questions. I think I’m ready to talk.
You were angry about something so you threw a pencil on the floor. Instead of him saying:
"Are you angry P? What's up?"
He asserts his power. He orders you to obey. He ignors your feeling and he uses his power to direct your next act..........to control........or else!!
I was angry? Nope, I had just come out of a dissociating rage. I saw him holding me aloft through my mother’s eyes. I saw myself the wee kiddie with arms and legs absolutely flailing in all directions. I was screaming, red in the face, completely lost it. My mother looks on, quiet, shocked maybe, saying nothing, doing nothing. I have no idea what exactly was happening to me previously or why it was happening. I remember him saying, laughing, “oh look at this mum” as he took my pants down and exposed my buttocks upwards. (He was holding me horizontally somehow.) Then I’m back in me, standing on the ground, looking at the ground, and I see this pen whatever and pick it up to throw it down. Obviously I think I was being punished for something but whatever it was has been completely blocked by his actions. I have no idea. He didn’t hit me I don’t think. Oh no, it far more bloody cruel than being hit! It was weird dominating sexual sort of humiliation and control. Somehow. I just don’t know. I wish I knew what I had done? or was supposed to have done?
Did you ever defy him? Did you ever say: "I hate you" to him?
Nope. I was too scared. I had to pretend to love him. I lived in his house. I had to keep to his ‘rules’. First day of school 5 years old this girl says to me ‘let’s go into the library’ and I say ‘are we allowed?’.
From his end: Was he used to children? Did he like them? Was he generally a patient person or was he a kind of......ruler over your mother too?
He had two children of his own. And an ex-wife. Or maybe she wasn’t ex at that time, what do I know, I wasn’t allowed to ask bloody questions. Not even about facts. They made me use his surname. At school. At 16 I got my NI card with this bastard name on it. That was the only time I went into a justified rage with them. They were shocked. I just organised it myself, re-instated my father’s name on everything. It hadn’t been legal. Good job I hadn’t taken any exams by then eh? Parents? I wish I’d been adopted. Oh yeah, his kids are both totally screwed up. ((((His kids))))
I bet he just wanted you out of the picture?
I was, every single weekend. Thank goodness. The weekend childhood.
Wanted your mother all to himself? Yep.
Wanted you to just be a little flower, if he had to put up with you, and maybe wanted you to just stand around looking sweet and pretty and to be very....quiet?
Wanted me to love him. To make him feel good. To exist to feed his ego. To be the dumping ground for his anger towards my mother when she didn’t do exactly what he wanted. He could blame me for her ‘depression’ she could blame me for upsetting their relationship, Christ they could both blame me for existing.
H&H
amazing that everyone has given so much of themselves here.
If we don’t give, we don’t get? I learn by writing here.
a child to say to a parent "I hate you" is very different than a parent saying it to a child. Not 100% sure why, but I feel that a parent saying it to a child is much worse.
Because a child is dependent upon the parent for it’s life when it’s born and when it grows. A parent is not dependent upon it’s child, biologically. For a parent to say ‘I hate you’ to it’s child is an abuse of their stronger position. Older children may want their parents to die, that’s the ‘natural’ (survival) order: for parents to want their children to die – that’s against survival. Back to sacrifice and religion here. God gave his only son and I’m supposed to be happy about that? Child sacrifice? That’s a bit close to the bone for me to swallow without a big fight.
Bean
This idea that humans are above animals (or should be) is in my mind, a little naive.
I think it’s downright arrogant of humans to think this. Humans are animals too. Just because we have big brains and opposable thumbs doesn’t mean we know how to use them to be helpful and not harmful. I often prefer animals to humans as companions. I’d rather talk to the birds in my garden (and I do) than the JWs who turn up on my doorstep wanting to impose their views on me (but of course I talk to them too, it’s quid quo pro! :D).
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Hiya Portia:
I must have misunderstood this:
I picked up a pen or pencil and threw it in anger on the floor.
It was weird dominating sexual sort of humiliation and control.
Yes, it sure seems like that. He sounds like he was domineering and corrupt.
I wish I knew what I had done? or was supposed to have done?
Portia, I'm not sure why this is so important to know?? What could a 3/4/5 year old little girl possibly doooooo to deserve to be treated with such disrespect? How could what you have done be of any consquence whatsoever? His treatment of you was improper. It was his problem.....his behaviour was the problem.....his parenting was the problem. ((((((((P))))))))
I had to pretend to love him. I lived in his house. I had to keep to his ‘rules’
Poor little (((((((((P)))))))). So did you pull it off? Were you able to "pretend" well enough? Did you obey?
That just sounds so controlling of him and so difficult and scary for a little girl to have to do. I'm sorry that happened and that you had to endure all of that Portia. He WAS a bastard!!
They made me use his surname. At school.
Control!! Control control control control control!!!! :x :x Deprived of the most basic right......your name! That was a terrible thing to do and a terrible thing for your mother to allow!! I'm glad you made a big stink about it, once you were old enough to and claimed what is rightfully yours....back!! Good for you Portia!! You did what you had to.....to survive and once you could take a stand.....you did!!! That took guts and determination. And you used your anger to protect yourself! I'm so glad!! That was a big statement and you did a fine job of making it!!
My mother looks on, quiet, shocked maybe, saying nothing, doing nothing.
I bet she did that a lot? But these days......it seems you're finding it easier to understand her behaviour than his??? She just isn't capable of parenting properly??? Do you think he was??
I bet he just wanted you out of the picture?
I was, every single weekend. Thank goodness. The weekend childhood.
Yes. Thank goodness!! That weekend childhood saved you, I bet? Do you have lots of good memories about those weekends? I hope so. I'm glad that weekend childhood happened so you could have a childhood. Otherwise.......just imagine how much worse it might have been? ((((((((Portia)))))).
Wanted me to love him. To make him feel good. To exist to feed his ego. To be the dumping ground for his anger towards my mother when she didn’t do exactly what he wanted. He could blame me for her ‘depression’ she could blame me for upsetting their relationship, Christ they could both blame me for existing.
Sounds like a form of emotional incest to me. ??? I'm so sorry P. I'm glad you are you and not like them at all! You are so responsible! You even want to know what you did wrong (and you didn't dooooo anything wrong enough to justify their behaviour. impossible because such behaviour is not justifiable).
My mom did a similar thing to me, which I've never talked about. Like you were their dumping ground for whatever they saw wrong with their situation and their relationship, like you were expected to some how... fix it; my mother dumped a good part of her emotional pain on me and I got the same feeling......like I should somehow fix it......save her......but I couldn't. Neither could you. We were just children for crying out loud!! We could not save them from themselves or their situations nor could we possibly be responsible for that kind of stuff. They were very irresponsible about it all and dumped on us. :( :( , I think, and we were being required to do the impossible!! How insane!! How ridiculous!! How unfair!!
It wasn't your fault P nor was it mine. You were not a "bad" child nor was I. It's a trick....a deception we absorbed, I think. No matter what you did...it doesn't matter. It was their behaviour that was inappropriate. No matter what I did....it doesn't matter. My mother needed a T not a child to help her solve her problems and help save herself. Her behaviour was inappropriate. It was inappropriate of her to place the weight of her sorrow, her anger, her confusion, her helplessness, her terror.......
......on me.
It was inappropriate of your step dad to place his frustration.....his anger......his need to blame and control.......on ((((((little you)))))) and for your mother, not to protect you from him. They were both sick too P. Sick people. Ill. Not well in their heads. I'm so sorry you had to endure them. :(
I'm glad you don't have to put up with him any more. Good riddence!! Talk some more, if it helps. Get it out. Why not? Maybe some behaviour is just not something we will ever understand? But the feelings generated by such behaviour.......need to be released. I really think so. If it's rage and hate you feel toward their behaviour......that rage and hate aren't hurting them. Those feelings are more likely not doing you any good......being kept inside and sort of....in check. What do you think P?
Hey Bean: This idea that humans are above animals
I don't think humans are above animals in many senses. I do think we are human animals and more frequently choose to act.....rather than act on mostly...instinct, as animals seem to, so often. I think they are better at acting on their instincts than we are, a lot of the time. Also......I've seen my dogs "think" things through
Example: Once, when my one dog was a pup, my older dog was sitting and waiting on me to give her some lettuce (she lovvvvvvvves lettuce!! :D). Anyway, the pup mosied over and sat beside the older dog, waiting too (looking so cute and confused.....turning her head from side to side, almost saying: "What are we waiting for? Can I have some too?"). The older dog looked at the pup and seemed to be thinking and then scanned around the room. Suddenly, the older dog got up, walked to the other side of the room, picked up a toy, walked to the centre of the room, shook the toy around a llittle and then placed it on the floor. Next, the pup got up, walked over and picked up the toy and started "playing" with it. That's when the older dog.....seemed to creep back and sit down, waiting for her lettuce, giving sideway glances at the pup, as if to make sure the pup was still busy with the toy. ("I want all the lettuce. I'm not sharing with you. How can I distract you? Let me see? There's a toy over there! Hmmmmmm??").
:D :D
I think animals have feelings too. I've seen examples of that too and they do seem to sense my feelings and react with efforts to comfort me.
((((((H&H and Hoppy)))))). I find it hard to imagine either of you using stinging words to cause hurt to anyone. You both seem way too kind to ever do that. It's people like you who make the world a beautfiul place.
:D Sela
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Portia,
I want to piggyback every single iintuitive empathic word Sela just said about your stepfather and your mother and your BRAVERY and SANITY and PERSISTENCE. I am deeply impressed with you and just feel a whole lot of respect. Plus, I too wonder if your anger might still need more release so you can have peace and be happy. I would not want it to be a constant recurring torment cycling through your life so you only have...weekend happiness. Or perhaps it's grief. I get the two very mixed up and maybe they each need some air time.
ANY adult who gets pleasure out of frightening and taking joy out of a child is damaged beyond reconciliation, to me. I mean, I would forgive and work with such a man kindly, in his jail cell.
But this is (metaphorically) his sentence...he is already locked away from the joy of loving Portia. What a fool. Imagine what enrichment this precious little daughter-person could have brought to his life. He did not know how to value you. He had a diamond and thought it was gravel. Blind and broken man.
Thank heaven YOU DO value you.... Right? Promise? Practice if you forget? (((((((Portia))))))
Sela,
Thank you SOOOOOO much for the lettuce story! I don't know why but those stories of dogs' intelligence and subtlety just make me absurdly happy. I'm going to start a new thread so maybe we'll get a few.
((((Sela)))))
Hops
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Thank you Sela….
I must have misunderstood this
Nope….I just wasn’t ready to say what happened before the pencil thing. I was hiding it. Don’t think I’ve written that before. It’s too – confusing / shameful / loaded / just too weird. Not really shameful but icky I guess. Not knowing why? - It’s trying to make sense of it I suppose. And it makes no sense, which blows my circuits.
Yah the name thing. I was about ooo don’t know. Starting the second primary school (I went to four) so about 6/7/8 must have been over 7 because I remember thinking “this isn’t for me, it’s for you”. My mother bent down to button up my coat looked in my eyes and said “we’ve decided it would be easier if you didn’t use your Dad’s name at school and it would be better if you used his, do you understand?” and I said ‘yes’ but then I was disgraced because at school, I didn’t know how to spell his name. I remember the teacher asked to see my mother about it and I just felt, hmmm, not a lot, I knew it wasn’t my fault. Yeah I must’ve been over 7 to reason that one out.
He was a big kid. Terrified of being abandoned.
my mother dumped a good part of her emotional pain on me and I got the same feeling......like I should somehow fix it......save her......but I couldn't.
(((((((((Sela)))))))))
I’m not sure I got it directly (his anger, her emotional incest) when I was young. I think I took the role of mother’s protector/carer to a point in direct competition to him, the great intruder. I can’t remember a lot.
I agree they were both sick. I’m glad he’s dead from my point of view (and that was my rock from space event, seeing her without him and realising he was not the whole problem, which i thought he was, for decades).
Hiya Hops, thank you for your kind words. Not sure I deserve respect; being logical here….if it wasn’t for my grandparents, I would be a (insert something) so it was luck really. Anger vs. grief I can’t tell a lot of the time, maybe it cycles around, one leads to other and back again.
I like the words “taking joy out of a child” yeah…I had the joy taken out of me, that feels right.
Imagine what enrichment this precious little daughter-person could have brought to his life.
I find that very difficult to imagine, really, I can’t imagine it. I have to try and think how great kids are and when I do, it’s a bit of an overload, putting those images in my past? I've only just found out how great kids are in the last two years so it's all a bit much. Before that i carried my mother's view that all children ruin your life and I sincerely believed that was my belief. Denying my past i guess and projecting all the bad stuff on to kids? (Kids like me btw and i thank fate that I didn't turn out to be - something much worse.)
It does get scary sometimes to think “it was that bad” because you worry – what is still screwy about me that I can’t see? But then everyone does have problems don’t they? Some more than others too.
Thanks both, I think I’ve exhausted this one. How about you Sela, have you come to a bedded-in conclusion about your original question?
Animals and arrogance: I was watching a wildlife tv show last night, monkeys frolicking in shallow water in the Amazon and the voice-over said: “the monkeys do this during the hotter hours, presumably to cool off, but they also appear to be doing it for fun…”
…..as though that’s odd, strange, unusual – that animals do things for fun.
What assumptions some make about other species eh?
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Hi again P and all:
It’s trying to make sense of it I suppose. And it makes no sense, which blows my circuits.
Crazy people do stuff that makes no sense. You were just a little girl and what he did was senseless (etc).
then I was disgraced because at school, I didn’t know how to spell his name. I remember the teacher asked to see my mother about it and I just felt, hmmm, not a lot, I knew it wasn’t my fault. Yeah I must’ve been over 7 to reason that one out.
I'm glad you were able to reason it out. I would have felt embarrassed, I think :oops: and probably angry :x.
seeing her without him and realising he was not the whole problem, which i thought he was, for decades
Wow! That sounds like a real turning point. I want to comfort you because it just sounds like another loss (it was all step-dad.....woops!.....no it wasn't! The mum you thought you had.....suddnely gone. :( So sorry (((P))).
How about you Sela, have you come to a bedded-in conclusion about your original question?
Well, I think the discussion has helped me to have a more flexible view of those words, to a certain extent. Hate is just something I've rejected most of my life, which in my case, I think has been a good thing. I can get real angry but my general mo is to get it out...express it.....and not let it sit and cook inside me. It's something I started doing at a young age and I've tried to teach my children to do. I think it's the best way to handle anger, if it is at all possible. I know that isn't always possible either.
Talking here has made it clear that I have to remember not to be so absolute about it. Anger gets repressed/ignored/stifled/beaten into submission, sometimes. I can see how that can happen to people and really, I haven't changed my mind about it being a not great thing for that person. But it might be necessary in order to survive and it might come out....in the form of those words, which might be ok, in some situations. Let's face it, that's not a whole lot of change for me but it's a little.
I agree that hate is a strong emotion however I believe it is one that most people do not have to experience, if they learn to express their anger before it becomes that strong. Maybe in many cases of abuse, people do not learn how to express it and so there is a bigger chance of hate being something they carry around.
I still think "I hate you" are words that are generally used with the intention of causing hurt, a lot of the time, and I try not to do that because I find it just another wrong after the first wrong. I'd rather, if I can possibly muster the words, be more direct about the behaviour that has riled me, about my feelings as a result, about what I expect to happen/to change and what the consequences will be, if that doesn't happen. But that's because I'm an adult now and I feel much more confident about saying what I think and feel.
It's different when you're a little girl and you don't have the opportunity to speak out and so what happens is your feelings have to be contained and might grow bigger, especially, as more are added to the container. I can easily see how hate might develop in such a case, how it might come out in a burst of words, once adulthood or other opportunity is reached, and how that may be exactly what has to happen to really say what is felt.
I think this thread has helped me to realize that my definition of what those words actually mean was a bit too slim. I think that definition is wider now so that's a good thing.
I would still like to caution my children to be careful and hesitant to use those words but I think I'll ask them, instead, what they think......if it's ok or not.......if they want to know why I feel so strongly about it.....what they're experiences have been.......and maybe they'll have lot's to say and I can learn something from them.
Words are tricky. That's for sure, imo.
:D Sela
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Thanks for pulling this up bean.
My thoughts - it is NOT ok to say I hate you, and you some unresolved feelings if you feel hatred.
Some of you have spouses that you might feel you hate now. I would bet that is because you still have some tiny feelings of caring about the person.
Sela, I would have left this Doctor too.
Love, Beth
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I say hate a lot. When someone says I JUST LOST 50 POUNDS I say I hate you. When my husband is on a drunken rant I say IT IS OFFICIAL! I HATE YOU! The first is in gest and the second is in desperation.
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Sela:
I think writing a letter to that doc would help you process the feelings involved for you.
You may not send it.... but you'll feel a lot more secure and centered about the feelings involved when it's written.... and maybe you do send it?
::shrug::
As for your daughter..... I think it's common for children to say they hate their parents. It may mean more when you hear it, bc you have context that's painful... but kids don't know exactly what it means yet.
They children aren't so invested in the words... and this is a good learning opportunity to give them better words and help them understand how their words will be heard out in the world one day.
What I concentrate on, with my children, is not the words "I hate you"....
but the words I DO WANT THEM TO USE INSTEAD.
I address the feelings that predecessed the anger and validate it.
"I know you're frustrated bc you couldn't have that Webkin, I can see that'
Then I give her words to express that herself..... and I don't take her words to heart because she's still learning to navigate her feelings... that's what kids do.
Believe me, it took other veteran parents to help me handle this in the beginning.... I took it to heart too.
Now..... my children can use calming words when I get a little bent out of shape myself.... say... in traffic?
"Mommy, use your little voice..." ::sigh:: That's when I know they hear the lessons... and they're gaining tools I want them to have.
Your daughter may be older now.... but she still has to learn how to communicate and process difficult emotions.
She can't be stomping around college campus or her work environment telling people she hates them when she has a problem.
What can she say and how will she say it? If I hate you isn't working for her, and it's not....
I guess it's like modeling and giving her tools she can use for the rest of her life.
It's not about her difficult feelings towards you.... it's about your teaching her to deal with, and express difficult feelings, KWIM?
Wow... this thread is amazing.... look at all the wonderful responses: )
I feel like mine is a first graders attempt, lol... but send it anyway.
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First of all, I want to say that I think we on the Vboard have some really BRILLIANT minds. The topics that come up are really awesome.
Secondly, I personally do not and teach my children not to use the word "HATE" about any human being. The actions of a person are what we hate, since each human was originally created to emulate Yahuwshu`a (JESUS to some). Each person was originally created in God's own image.
There is a Bible verse I stand on for this : "how can you say you love God whom you cannot see yet hate your brother whom you can." God calls people who do this, liars.
I do not believe in even saying "oh i hate you" to a person who is skinny while I'm overweight. Even in jest, this word just feels so vicious and evil to me.
I have never used this word with any of the people from my past, that i can recall, nor have they ever said it to me. There have been a LOT of really bad feelings between us, but I can't say that hatred was ever one of them. Disappointed, Disillusioned, Abused, Mistreated, Forsaken, Abandoned, Wounded, Hurt, Angry, Sad, Tired, Those were the words that always passed between us...not hatred though.
Even my own daughter who says I'm stupid, fat, old, ugly, retarded, etc...NEVER told me she HATED me when she came to an age of reason (as I child, many of them stand in their bedrooms and say "I HATE YOU MOMMY!" to which I've always responded, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I LOVE you."
~Laura
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What's really interesting about this thread is that it is clear, as I read it, that Sela hated what the therapist had done between her and her daughter, and that she also hated the therapist for having done this, while at the same time she's very concerned that we understand that she would never actually come out and SAY these things.
This puts her in a horrible double bind.
Not saying such things, not allowing oneself to think such things, makes no difference whatsoever, if one continues to feel them. In fact, the more you try to hide these feelings, the more they're going to come out sideways. Directed at others, whom it is safer to dislike, in displacement; or directed at the actual target in oblique, mystifying ways, in covert hostility.
What I don't understand is why we think that this type of concealment is either healthy or right. It may be wise, when dealing with someone vindictive and retaliatory [as in Pennyplant's case at work], to keep them from discovering our true feelings about them, but it is rarely either wise or productive in anything that claims to be a close relationship. All it does is destroy closeness.
And yes, even one's closeness with oneself can be destroyed. Look at the battle Ami is fighting, to get back to the Self she lost at age 14, through no fault of her own.
Getting back to Sela's situation, look at how much good concealment has done in this case... none at all. The relationship with the daughter is no better off for it, the relationship with the doctor is no better off for it, and Sela is still carrying all this pain. The mess is not only still there, it's worse because of all the 'I shouldn't say this' associated with it, while of course Sela continues to feel what she feels - and has a right to feel!
I'm not saying we should all go around popping off in one another's faces at the slightest provocation or excuse. What I am saying is that most of us would benefit from being a little more honest [oh, THAT word again :roll: ; if it bothers you, substitute 'straightforward'] with ourselves about what we feel, towards whom, and why, and a lot less concerned about how we LOOK when we're trying to pretend we don't feel it.
There are amazing imprecatory prayers in the Book of Psalms, and they are there for a reason. They are there to teach us that even the people whose writings ended up in the Christian Scriptures felt these things, and felt them strongly and even savagely. They are there to teach us that these feellings are the inevitable and natural result when any person is treated meanly and unjustly. They are there to teach us that we need not be ashamed even of these feelings and thoughts, if we bring them honestly and openly before God, with a sincere desire for help and guidance, and a sincere desire for the best outcome for all concerned.
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I agree with all that you say, Storm...
but DO I (general) really feel hate if I say that to my child (in a moment of frustration and panic where I'm ripping jammies off and shoving clothes on a tiny body bc we're running late and I'm positive that I will be seen as a failure and a fraud and a loser by the teachers and other mommies', who I'm sure already suspect I'm those things..... bc I suspect them myself?)
Pretty sure it's not hate for my child I have to own and explore.... it's the feelings behind the thought. SAYING those words, to me.... is like saying....
'SHUT UP!'... or 'STFU!' I wouldn't and I don't think either need to be said, not that you believe they do either. I simply would never deal with feelings, myself, using those words or giving anyone permission to use them.
(disclaimer: I have said those things to someone who was lying to me wholesale and wouldn't stop.... they were also abusive and feeling maddeningly entitled. Do I feel they're proper and correct when used with someone we no longer value and are trying to avoid? Not sure but.... they had to come out. So, I agree with you there, don't I?)
I don't like those words and would never use them with someone I wanted an ongoing relationship with. I will say that.
Words like that are very expensive.... 99.9% of the time they're way out of my price range.
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I like that word, "straightforward"
Websters says:
1 a : free from evasiveness or obscurity : EXACT, CANDID <a straightforward account> b : CLEAR-CUT, PRECISE
2 : proceeding in a straight course or manner : DIRECT, UNDEVIATING
BEING STRAIGHTFORWARD WITH YOURSELF AND OTHERS, ALLOWS YOU TO GO STRAIGHT FORWARD WITHOUT GETTING SIDETRACKED!
________________________________________________________________________________________
Here is the other word mentioned, and it's meaning:
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin honestus honorable, from honos, honor honor
1 a : free from fraud or deception : LEGITIMATE, TRUTHFUL <an honest plea> b : GENUINE, REAL <making honest stops at stop signs -- Christian Science Monitor> c : HUMBLE, PLAIN <good honest food>
2 a : REPUTABLE, RESPECTABLE <honest decent people> b chiefly British : GOOD, WORTHY
3 : CREDITABLE, PRAISEWORTHY <an honest day's work>
4 a : marked by integrity b : marked by free, forthright, and sincere expression : FRANK <an honest appraisal> c : INNOCENT, SIMPLE
synonym see UPRIGHT
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I'm having a hard time figuring out the difference between 'straighforward' and being too honest: /
Is there such as thing as being too exact, candid.... precise?
Direct, uneviating...... sometimes seems, to me.... isn't exactly welcome.
3-D or otherwise, ahem.
It's almost like walking on eggshells isn't enough, at times either....
the eggshell walkers get name called and cubby holed as well...so.... I can't quite figure out what candid is..... if walking on eggshells can be viewed as evil.
Certainly, in relationships with N's.... it's pretty clear that being direct won't workl. They have irrational invisible agendas, only they can see.... That much I've figured out.
If people (general) have their own agenda, that will simply not be served without others giving into agreement and submission... what to do, what to do?
Maybe simply avoiding is the best course of action but..... I don't see how that serves us in our journey from voicelesness?
I know I will, at some point.
Just wish it would get here sooner.
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I wonder about the hatred which we might feel from others.
When you know in your heart that a person hates and despises you... it can be a struggle not to absorb that hate into yourself and make it your own.
When my husband senses that someone doesn't like him, he will go directly to them and ask... something like, "Do you have a problem with me?"
That's always astounded me... that he can do that.
When I know that someone feels ugly toward me, the last thing I want to do is confront them directly... and yet I do believe that's wise.
Problem is, many folks who only let you know their feelings toward you via unpleasant tones and actions (passive-aggressive?)
tend to take even greater offense at that sort of straightforward approach... especially when they don't like to admit to anyone (including themselves) that they're anything less than perfectly loving.
Great definitions for straightforward, Laura... I'd like to conquer the rest of the fear which might prevent me from always being so.
Lighter... Some folks are going to interpret straightforward as "rudeness" no matter how hard we may try to be "nice" about it.
But there's a Bible passage which comes to my mind alot lately... talks about "giving no appearance of evil"...
and that's where I think some irony, sarcasm, humor can be misconstrued and so it's probably best to avoid such tools, lest someone feel like they're more of a weapon.
If we're tuned in to the other person and sense that we may not be connecting well with them, I do think that we have a responsibility to ask ourselves why - and then to ask them.
Otherwise, we could be dealing with a sensitive person who is feeling bludgeoned by our words and tuning out every time we speak... and if we assume that's because of some problem in THEM, then... I think that's just prideful.
Yup yup... that's what I think.
We had an interesting couple of years here with my husband blending into our family of 3 (at the time) - 2 of them teens...
and so that's my frame of reference for all of the above.
Love,
Carolyn
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Ah well, I hate analysing Sela so intimately and making such assumptions about her inner life when she's not present.
Sela, I miss you! A lot! :)
lots of love,
Hops
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Sorry you went through all that pain ((Portia))
I'll address Hope here, with the clear understanding that I haven't had to weather a blended family with 2 teens .... Gads what a learning experience that was, I'm sure.
What I do know.... is that I've watched some pretty fancy pussyfootin around get labled mean and evil.... and I've been labled mean and evil for inviting people to laugh at themselves.... which is how I always prefer to be approached and so I gravitate towards that.
Overt hostility and name calling is dreadful to me..... I prefer a more civilized form of disagreeing... preferably using humor, but that's just me.
Since I don't have all that wisdom you've accumulated ....the hard way..... I am lacking in patience and have a belly full of pussyfootin around (read that as being marginalized and not heard when I do speak) I'm trying to outgrow, at this time.
It's not entirely graceful... but I'm working on it, lol.
I don't own the ability to be as patient as you.
I admit that because it's true.
Esp where there's absolutely NO payoff: /
I do see where you're coming from and I understand how it can work very well, indeed, however.
In my FOO... I have to hit people over the head with overt definate statements that mean what I say and say what I mean, or I'm completely dismissed and might as well have said something benign like.....
Lovely day, eh? or.... I had my toes done. ::wiggle wiggle::
Once, I said....'I'm trying to have my H arrested" and the response was...... Oh, really? I have a 2:00 hair appointment, a 4;00 doctors appt and can be there at 5:30 to move some more stuff out of the truck for the sale..... see you then. Kiss Kiss.
I was a very gentle, dreamy eyed child... my sibs were not dreamy eyed in the least.
In Meyer's Briggs they describe the INFP as a swan in a family of ducks: /
I suppose I picked up some of their style along the way (in self defense, lol?) bc at some point they started looking at me sideways in a "we have to start watching out for you' sort of way, lol.
I much prefer to be that gentle dreamy eyed child but... the world is a hard place for that particular type of child... add introverted to the list and..... it's not very pretty, I'm afraid.
I will end with this..... if I have the chemical dump that focuses my attention to a very pinpointed degree....... there is reason for that chemical dump, whether I choose to focus my energy at that time or not.
Sometimes.... I do.
Sometimes not: /
We all do the best we can, in the moment.
You're words are getting through and I hear you, wise patient Hope: )
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Sela's post about a difficult time was March of 2006, and Bean pulled up the thread because it's a timely topic for the rest of us in the present. We can get an update from Sela herself when/if she's of a mind.
Danke, Bean. It is a good topic for the board.
(Me, I don't say, "I hate you." I was raised to hate an action or behavior but not a person. Doesn't mean I never feel hate. I have. Basically, it makes me sick to feel it, so mostly, I find ways of thinking that help me access what's happening from a spiritual context rather than an emotional one. What's tricky is when I use my mind to analyse but avoid noticing what's cooking inside me emotionally. But, I've got a mind for a reason, for reason. So, one job is to think about it. The other, for me, is to process it as soon as I can and as best I can from the best part of myself, which is spiritual, not emotional. And if there's no resolution possible, as with a dominant N, then...avoid the person I've felt it about as often as possible, unless I'm a bystander to harm.)
Also worth noting that thinking, feeling, and transcending mingle and flow and are not in separate boxes. So language limits us.
Hops
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Lighter,
Feels like I should ask...
Do you feel the need to defend yourself/ your position here? I mean, do you feel like I'm questioning or correcting you?
I don't mean to do that... so if that's how it feels to you, I'd like to change my approach.
As far as the rest of it...
I know what you mean about the "fancy pussyfootin around" and it often smells like nothing but phoniness to me.
Most of the time, I think it's just people trying to be polite and gracefully bow out of a conversation they'd rather not have.
And I do see that this is sometimes the best method of defusing a potentially explosive situation.
It all depends on the other personality involved, I think.
From my own perspective, when I see that someone is strongly opposed to any
disagreement with her own views, I won't try to communicate at a deeper level.
I don't have to judge her in order to come to that conclusion, or judge myself, either...
just know that some folks aren't going to mesh.
In my case, I've always felt such strong vibes from others - some positive, some negative -
and I've always found that level of awareness to be so painful... that I've often made a conscious decision to
tune out those vibes, lest I presume too much and get caught up in some false assumptions.
My friend Hops and I had a situation like that, which she's mentioned elsewhere on the board... and that taught me alot.
Literally, I couldn't function in life if I heeded all those vibrations I get, so I have to turn down the sensitivity in order to communicate at all.
Still, sometimes I do heed them and completely disengage... and wisely so.
Overt hostility and name calling is dreadful to me, too.
On the other hand, I have family members who've often used humor and sarcasm in much the same way,
so it had the same effect as if they'd dissed me outright with a curse, or called me a bad name.
Because of that, I can understand how some personalities are negatively affected by what you or I might consider humorous.
Cerebral Narcissists are masters of the sarcastic, sneering remark...
the effects of exposure to that can take a good long while to shake off.
Truly, patience is not my particular virtue. I just do not want to keep fighting the same old, worn battles.
For me, there is a payoff... I keep my integrity intact and do my best not to offend others if there's any way I can avoid that.
Sometimes it's not possible... because a person determined to take offense will find it, whether you lay it before them or not.
I don't understand the chemical dump reference... are we talking brain bio? I know, duh... see, I am so dense.
But to me, yes, you are a swan.
On the other hand, we have chickens and ducks, and to me - a duck is a very spiritual creature, in comparison.
We're not arguing here, are we?
Doesn't feel like a disagreement to me... and I sure don't want to be disagreeable.
Love,
Carolyn
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Hope:
I'm pretty sure it can't be an argument if I can't remember exactly what we were supposed to be arguing about, lol.
I think I was....::going back to peek:: responding to Laura's post on being straighforward and how that's not always accepted gracefully, or in the spirit in which it was intended?
You responsed.... I responsed?
General message... nothing to do with you..... as follows:
Sometimes, even knowing the response won't be chipper, I need to just leave a truth out there bc I've spent so many years saying nothing..... and now have some regrets, for different reasons.
Nobody dies if we tell the truth.
Who knew?
I'm curiouse what does happen: / Maybe somebody gets a message or at least I don't feel like I'm blowing smoke up their bum? :shock: Something to be said for having my integrity up in place, at least at this time but that's all subjective. I don't need to have everything understood about my journey or be validated... it just seemed like a natural jumping off post.
::sigh::
I admit Idiot Empathy resonates powerfully, for me, on this board.... at this time. ::shrug::
Your ability to be patient (read that as pussyfootin around) was addressed and I understand it yet maintain my inability to occupy that space right now, though I once could occupy no other.
Let's see... is there anything else I missed...?
Nope.... I'm good, lol :D
All clear......
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Ahh... now wait a minute here, Missy Lighter... :o lol.
I had not realized that the pussyfootin was a reference to me and my so-called "patience"!! :P :)
Maybe I can clarify a bit...
In general, I've found that the majority of folks don't pay much attention to what's actually being said.
In general, it seems to me that most folks only hear the squeakiest wheels... and they don't really note all the stuff which led up to that squeaking.
In my house, for instance, if my kids are having a disagreement, I have learned that the one making the most noise is not necessarily the injured party. My daughter may be furious with my son and screeching about her injured toe... and if I hadn't been closely watching the entire interaction, I wouldn't know that she'd actually hurt that toe whilst trying to do a smackdown move on her bro.
Yeah huh... things are not necessarily as they appear.
So... who wants to waste the time explaining to numbers of inattentive bystanders what just happened?
Not I!
I don't want to make that sort of investment in hogwash, really.
So for me, it really is not nearly so much about patience as it is conservation of time and energies.
Make sense?
Love,
Carolyn
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Hope... forgot to explain 'chemical dump' as I wrote it.
I'm usually a very fuzzy wuzzy sleepy bear sort of personality.
Focusing on something in particular usually involves some type of chemical dump.... natural or self inficted.
Coffee....
a tall glass of water sans ice......
ginseng.....
someone on the board finger wagging at other people for doing exactly what they themselves have done.
Yup yup yup..... Hypocrisy can give me a jolt, though it's not necessarily an angry jolt... or even judgmenta.
I was fasinated with one poster's ability to remain incredulous, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Then it turned into another excuse.... then another.... but still no responsility was taken.
I still wonder.... can she simply NOT admit she's ever wrong or..... was her need to be right so powerful that she can't even see what's in front of her? Is it pathological and is she our lesson or are we her's?
I guess I'm curiouse too.... come to think of it.... and more likely to be amused than become angry on the board... except when newcomers get manipulated for selfish reasons to their detriment.
The chemical dump involved in that one..... has a few extra ingredients: /
As for any and all pussyfootin going on..... it was general pf that I was referring to and your response prompted some discussion about why you try to avoid conflict and keep your integrity in tact and I get that and respect it: )
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Hi Lighter,
Thanks for explaining that chemical dump reference.
I gather it's like a shot of adrenaline...
a catalyst of sort... and whether that culminates in action or reaction, I dunno... but I think that's the key to watch out for.
Also, the way I look at it, there are various ways to participate in finger-wagging...
and this post of mine feels like it has the potential to turn into just that.
I'm not qualified to wag... only to set my own boundaries, directly and clearly.
Till now, I have not done a very effective job of that, but that just takes practice, I figure.
It feels to me like you have some boundaries ready to bust on outta you... and maybe you need to spell them out?
I don't know... that's just a feeling.
In my own revised view of this business of communication, I believe that if we have a problem with another
individual we should either speak directly with them about it, immediately, or let it go, also immediately.
For me... I've been talking with you here, Lighter, because I don't have any problem with you and no desire to finger wag... only talk.
As far as those with whom I've taken issue and had to reinforce boundaries, when I've said that I've let something go,
I need to not pick it back up again... neither personally nor vicariously.
Just as a general rule, I can't do veiled references and insinuations. When I've felt in the past that I've participated in such vagueries, I've always felt bad, cheap, weak, and childish about myself. It's all just too catty for me.
I don't want to think that way and I'm only just beginning to realize that I need to make use of disclaimers when I post lest the other person misunderstand.
In some cases, I'm seeing that I can't post in agreement with some other posters here, lest I be automatically misunderstood, by association.
That bugs me, and yet it's a fact with which I've gotta deal somehow... or else return to voicelessness. I need to be able to speak for myself... and I think that I do deserve the respect to not be lumped in with anyone else, or put onto this side of the fence or that, simply because of someone else's arbitrary choice. When people do that, I feel that they deny me my right to be myself, independent of another. On the other hand, if I don't want to be automatically lumped, then I need to speak up in disagreement with others when I truly disagree... or else I will come across lookin like some sort of tag-along, dependent personality. These are just a couple of realizations I've been seeing here on the board.
One thing that is true about me is that I don't generally find anyone else's foibles and failings amusing... with the exception
of someone whom I dearly love engaging in some accidental slapstick, about which I'd have a hard time not laughing.
I feel that to sit back and laugh at another person's disabilities (and that's how I see them) is a form of mockery. I don't want to be that way. I don't think that humor works as a substitute for anger, because it often comes across feeling like that mockery I mentioned above.
Better for me to just not engage, if there's any risk at all that I might offend them by being cavalier or too lighthearted in my approach with them.
That's just my own personal view. I don't like to be misunderstood.
It hurts me when I've been misunderstood.
Anyhow, thanks again for making me think this through further.
It seems that you have a much clearer image of your own self than I do at this point.
My self-image is a work in progress, as I experience communication here and discover what works... and what doesn't.
Because I consider you a friend, I feel able to just talk straight up without fear... but I can't do that with just anyone.
I don't mind doing a bit of the eggshell walk until familiarity grows... but there is a line for that, I think - I just need to
decide where that line should be and be prepared to draw it. Getting practice with that here, too... so it's all good.
Love,
Carolyn
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Carolyn....
it would be my hope that the person I'm nudging.... (read that as mocking for those who see it that way)
would be able to step back and see the humor in what they're doing.....
along with me.
If I simply wanted to mock someone..... to be mean or injure someone without reason.....
I could do that.
And with a whole lot less thought than 'nudging' them takes: /
I could also name call, rant and accuse and be a PITA that wouldn't shut up for anything about lots of things just because.....
but I don't :shock:
Being mean is easy.....
pointing things out, with humor, in the hope that others can laugh with you (and find some deeper understanding of themselves) is another thing, IMO... of course.
At any point, the person I think we're referring to..... could have... almost did..... take responsibility and move on past.
But they juuuuuuussssst couldn't manage the leap and that's OK.
They have something.... someone.... tapping them on the shoulder from their past, maybe?
I know what that feels like to have my face pressed against the glass.
I know what it's like to stand on the cliff..... wind blowing so hard I can't hear.... wind wrapping my hair around my face so that I can't see......
there's only the wind and the cliff...... confusion and pain.
It's a place where I can sometimes be reached.... and sometimes not.
I'd like to say I always responded with...... 'that's right... I did that, didn't I?' then laugh with the person who's trying to help steer me off the ledge. I have done it..... plain speakers can get through to me so.... I suppose I've emulated them to some degree.
Oh my, having strong female friends.... some 40 years my senior.... has touched my life in yet another way I didn't quite understand until now.
I know they'll only be with me a little while longer.... I've been going in and out of anxiety attacks when I think about losing them but it's their honestly and truth and the fact that they have my very best interest in mind.... that I'll miss most. Wherever will I go to find replace that?
And yet... the other day I was struggling mightily with fear and..... just sitting quietly by a koi pond for an hour with one of these friends steadied me.... she didn't't understand enough to help me but her quiet presense was enough to get my attention.... her letting me help her with something she's worried about helped me off the ledge. I recovered and was amazed at the serenity I gained.... still not sure where it came from exactly but.... it was mine and I received it and it's still with me, thank God.
Amazing... the power of honesty... in my own life.
I'd be lying if I said I could always understand the hand being extended.... and let it help me come down off the edge. That isn't really true.
But I will say, with some confidence..... that I also don't think I'd scapegoat the person extending their hand. I might be more angry or frirghtened or horrified than I perhaps should be at whatever is truly hunting me but..... I don't get outsiders confused with the hunter, as far as I know, anyway.
I also want to go down on record with this.....
I hope that everyone who feels excluded can come and join me down by the river.... in the reeds..... and laugh like children. At ourselves... each other.... our situations.... and our paths of healing.
It never occurred to me that those that feel ganged up on and attacked won't be able to turn away from the edge and come down by the river too.
Eventually.....
and we can talk about how they found their way.
I'd hate to think they'd remain on the ledge..... finding enemies everywhere around them.... without end.
I simply can't tolerate even thinking about that.
And so.... what good would it do me to gang up on someone I wish could see me as someone who would help?
OH OH OH! I know this is long and prolly gettin boring but....
I watched THE GAME again last night... maybe for the 10th time. I just never get sick of that movie and it really had more meaning for me this time bc of the discussions on the board.
Where once I was blind.... now I see.
Poor Mike Douglas, cast perfectly IMO..... had to be ripped, kicking and screaming, OUT of his comfort level in order to learn things about himself that opened his life up to joy and true understanding.
WOW WOW WOW I just thought about these threads as I watched and it is amazing how we do sometimes have to hit rock bottom in order to come to a place where we can listen.
Not sure how that applies here but I'll end on that.
-
Lighter, Certain Hope -
Is it ok for me to post at this point about something related to your conversation?
cats paw
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CatsPaw.... jump in any time: )
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Dear Cat's Paw,
You're welcome to contribute anything you'd like, as far as I'm concerned.
Dear Lighter,
I'll hold off on replying for a bit... kinda in betwixt here with kitchen stuff and just popped in.
One thing I just want to continue to emphasize... in this discussion, I do not have a particular view which I'd like to try to prove as right, or anything like that. To me, this is about gaining understanding of various perspectives and throughout the whole thing, I'm open to consider changes in my own view, okay? Coming from a stance of 100% fear for a lifetime, I realize that I'm way behind the times in knowing how to deal with this stuff and only want to adopt the very best methods myself. Also, I don't know how much weight individual personality should be allowed to carry when we're talking about discussions of sensitive issues, as we do here.
Just seems to me that everyone needs to be willing to bend over backwards a bit more here, considering the environment...
back later.
If you're around Cat's Paw, I'm very interested to hear you...
Love,
Carolyn
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Thanks Lighter,
I'm going to go ahead since since one of the two of you ok'd it, and I don't think Hope will mind, based on what I'm going to say.
First, IMO, the two of you are having a wonderful dialogue.
Secondly, when you first replied to me on the thread that was pulled, you said be careful, because you never know what they're going to do, before you said serpentine while I lurk.
Though you used an icon in the first part, for a brief second I felt a bit mocked. It only lasted for a second, because my assumption was that at worst, you were poking gentle fun at me, because my recent worries about what to post where, when etc. were quite evident. I think I even poked a little fun at myself about this very issue when I purposely exaggerated once, saying and, and, and....Never Mind. (I was thinking of Gilda Radner on SNL, but I don't know if that made sense to anyone else when I wrote it.)
I'm ok with some people poking fun, if it's a safe experience. Sometimes, it's just hard to tell, especially in this medium.
I think that's basically all I wanted to say, to describe my experience in that instance, and I must feel ok about voicing it, since I have written this. Thanks for letting me practice my "I" statements !
cats paw
Oh, almost forgot- who asked you if they could be garbed like an amazon just recently? I wanna, too ! I lost mine somewhere about ten years ago!
Carolyn,
Thanks! I see you posted while I was typing.
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I agree with all that you say, Storm...
but DO I (general) really feel hate if I say that to my child (in a moment of frustration and panic where I'm ripping jammies off and shoving clothes on a tiny body bc we're running late and I'm positive that I will be seen as a failure and a fraud and a loser by the teachers and other mommies', who I'm sure already suspect I'm those things..... bc I suspect them myself?)
Pretty sure it's not hate for my child I have to own and explore.... it's the feelings behind the thought. SAYING those words, to me.... is like saying....
'SHUT UP!'... or 'STFU!' I wouldn't and I don't think either need to be said, not that you believe they do either. I simply would never deal with feelings, myself, using those words or giving anyone permission to use them.
(disclaimer: I have said those things to someone who was lying to me wholesale and wouldn't stop.... they were also abusive and feeling maddeningly entitled. Do I feel they're proper and correct when used with someone we no longer value and are trying to avoid? Not sure but.... they had to come out. So, I agree with you there, don't I?)
I don't like those words and would never use them with someone I wanted an ongoing relationship with. I will say that.
Words like that are very expensive.... 99.9% of the time they're way out of my price range.
Ah, but look at what I actually said, now.
I did not say: go tell everyone you hate exactly how you feel about them. Scream at them, abuse them, tell them to shut up, let it all hang out.
Not at all. Not even remotely.
I did say: unless you can admit to yourself that you feel these things, unless you can recognize in yourself the overwhelming desire to do these things, you are probably going to spend the rest of your life trapped by them, in one way or another, when it's so much nicer [and over so much faster] simply to face them and deal with them.
Using 'you' in the generic sense, and including me in that generic 'you' as well.
Funny timing. I picked up a diet pamphlet yesterday on impulse, while the checkout clerk was having a 20 minute confab with the guy in line in front of me, ringing up one item at a time, with three sentences per item. What I found in it made me chuckle hugely.
It's published by Prevention magazine, and authored &/or edited by a fellow named Bob Greene, who is apparently on Oprah a lot. This is what it says [pages 17 and 18, PreventionGuide 'Best Life Diet Planner']
"With a strong emotional foundation, everything you build ... will stand tall and firm. That foundation begins with four basic cornerstones: honesty, responsibility, commitment, and inner strength. These qualities are the building blocks of success in weight loss and all other facets of life. Here's how they work:
"HONESTY You want to change? Stop wearing blinders. It's essential to be honest about your weaknesses and past failures in order to succeed. ...
"The point of honest self-exploration is not to beat yourself up about your shortcomings. Rather, it's to learn something you didn't know about yourself, or, if you did know it on some level, to finally admit it. ... When you're honest with yourself, you can break unhealthy patterns and build on positive ones.
"RESPONSIBILITY Successful people take responsibility for their past actions. Follow their lead. To begin, stop pointing the blame elsewhere ...
"COMMITMENT Another characteristic of successful people? They keep commitments. ... Your commitment to yourself needs to be sacred.
"INNER STRENGTH Inner strength is often what tilts the scale from failure to success.. ... each time you make the healthier choice, your inner strength flourishes and those temptations become easier to defeat."
Shoot, this is exactly what I've been saying here for years, and it's the gist of what I said on this thread.
It's not controversial; it's not rocket science. Dunno why folks react as though it were.
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No, it's not rocket science at all. I think it dovetails nicely with the story of walking down the street, falling into a hole, etc. and in the end taking a different street. Everyone is at different stages.
Boy, did I jump in the hole in the street yesterday. I had a difficult visit with my mother yesterday, on many levels. I used some resources, (except for this board and my journal) but I was still feeling the effects of a chemical dump as Lighter puts it. But BOY-OH-BOY, instead of just the catalyst, as Carolyn said was how she understood Lighter's reference, mine was different. I had emotions, and had them aplenty!
I'm wanting to lose weight for a trip in 2008, and have been doing well. But as I said, I jumped in the hole yesterday after my visit with my mother, and was briefly weak and failed. But, I'm not beating myself up over it. My stance is different this time. So perhaps it was not such a failure after all.
Geez, wonder what Sela will think about the interesting turn this thread has taken?
cats paw
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I'm ok with some people poking fun, if it's a safe experience. Sometimes, it's just hard to tell, especially in this medium.
I think that's basically all I wanted to say, to describe my experience in that instance, and I must feel ok about voicing it, since I have written this. Thanks for letting me practice my "I" statements !
Dear Cats Paw,
It's the same for me, just as you've said here... it depends who's doing the fun-poking. In fact, to a great measure, I suppose it depends on that individual's proven ability to laugh at himself.
The thing is, when I know that someone is particularly sensitive to such interaction (and I mean sensitive in a non-condemning way, as I can be this way, too!!!!) ...
then I will try my best to make a point of not approaching them in that style...
at least until they have a chance to get to know me better.
I guess there are some folks with whom that light-hearted approach may never be effective, in which case any relationship wouldn't go too far... cuz I can't imagine life without humor, either.
And I really appreciate what you've said about practicing your "I" statements. That's what it seems I need to do, too... and like I keep trying to say, it's seemed safe to me to do that with Lighter. On the other hand, I don't want to take advantage of her good will. Seems necessary to me to have a willing partner in this sort of endeavor... or at least someone who's aware that's what you're doing. Till you expressed it, Cat's Paw, I wasn't sure what it was even called.
So dear Lighter, now that I know your identity as a swan... I just want to be sure that this approach I've taken here is not causing you distress.
Are you okay? May we continue sharing and comparing "I" statements with a non-judgmental tone?
I understand what you've written here about being mean vs nudging... and I agree... and I see that I used to give considerable attention to nudging, in the past.... so in many ways, you remind me of myself then. For better or worse, I seem to have left the nudging behind, at least most of it. Really, I feel like... who am I to nudge? I'd have to understand someone else pretty well before I could even begin to know which direction he/she needed to go... and I'm only just now beginning to come to an understanding of myself.
So all I can do is compare notes...
there's enough wind on my own cliff to drown out alot which I'd have to take into consideration before directing anyone else.
Love,
Carolyn
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Carolyn and Lighter,
What I love about your dialogue is that you are so different, yet it's so visible how you are taking steps toward accepting and understanding each other. You'll never have remotely similar voices or styles, and yet, you are curious and open enough, and have good-will...so that it looks like a respectful and safe communication. It's been engaging and illuminating to read, thank you!
Carolyn, in my mind you are characterized by caring carefulness. It feels like part great sensitivity, but also great commitment to serious and loving ideals. You really want harmony and understanding, and you are sensitive not only to the thought of being misunderstood, but just as much to the notion of you misunderstanding. It feels to me like those motives mostly balance each other in you, so you can keep engaging with most folks. Very lovely to see. (I bet your H is besotted with you.)
Lighter, you are sharp as a clamshell edge. Your humour lays me out sometimes, and never offends me. I think that's because I can feel the difference between a brief moment of snark (you described that in a way that helped me make peace with my own snark-bursts) and a slicing. Other times, I am delighted by your graphic wit, the way you play with words and space, so I feel as though you're sketching your communication as well as writing it. Lastly, the burlesque side of me just loves your inner goof. You may, in fact, be the reincarnation of a French bulldog.
Botha youse, I could of course be way off base (please disregard anything clueless), but I love the chance to describe people to themselves in a positive way. That has been offered so generously to me here so many times. Time for some payback!
love
Hops
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((((((((((Hops))))))))))) you dear, sweet heart... I accept that characterization! I do, I do... because I remember a little girl who was just as you've described and she looked just like me.
And I must say, I wholeheartedly agree with your portrayal of Lighter, as well... but although it may not be visible in type, I think that we have at least a bit in common, in a parallel-dimensionish kinda way :lol:
(((((((((Lighter))))))))))
Love you both very much,
Carolyn
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hey folks – sorry to interrupt, just wanted to clarify something,
Lighter you said:
it would be my hope that the person I'm nudging.... (read that as mocking for those who see it that way)
I used nudging on my thread over yonder – hope you don’t think I was implying, in any way shape of form, that this was mocking?
My definition of nudging is not mocking, it is pushing a hair beyond a person’s comfort level. Nudging to the next level if that makes any sense. I see this is a good thing, personally, for me, it is where I learn the most.
:::shrug:::
Others may not like this as it doesn’t always sit well, and I can find it uncomfortable as well, but ultimately I like it. May not agree in the end, but I get some great food for thought.
OK – just wanted to make sure you understood that I did not equate nudging with mocking.
Now I am going to find an ice pack for me head.
Peace
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Well, Peace
A nudge can be equated to being stuck in a groove of a record (if one remembers musical records that played with a needle) and a thoughtful person gives the needle a gentle nudge for it to jump to the next groove, instead of going over and over and over and over the same thing!
Regards all
Izzy
[attachment deleted by admin]
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A few comments from sleepylane over here...I like those definitions of nudge, too... Izzy's phonograph needle, tweedling with someone's hair (a very loose paraphrase, I know, Peace :))
I don't mind being tweedled or nudged... Lord knows I need it.
But I am thinkin that I'd feel okay/safe/on solid ground about nudging a close friend, while with anyone else... I'd be afraid that I might pull back a nub.
Even here on the board... just because we're all in the same proverbial boat, I'm not sure that we should automatically assume it's okay to nudge?
Maybe it's best to ask permission before nudging?
Just my half-penny's worth.
Carolyn
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I agree with all that you say, Storm...
but DO I (general) really feel hate if I say that to my child (in a moment of frustration and panic where I'm ripping jammies off and shoving clothes on a tiny body bc we're running late and I'm positive that I will be seen as a failure and a fraud and a loser by the teachers and other mommies', who I'm sure already suspect I'm those things..... bc I suspect them myself?)
Pretty sure it's not hate for my child I have to own and explore.... it's the feelings behind the thought. SAYING those words, to me.... is like saying....
'SHUT UP!'... or 'STFU!' I wouldn't and I don't think either need to be said, not that you believe they do either. I simply would never deal with feelings, myself, using those words or giving anyone permission to use them.
(disclaimer: I have said those things to someone who was lying to me wholesale and wouldn't stop.... they were also abusive and feeling maddeningly entitled. Do I feel they're proper and correct when used with someone we no longer value and are trying to avoid? Not sure but.... they had to come out. So, I agree with you there, don't I?)
I don't like those words and would never use them with someone I wanted an ongoing relationship with. I will say that.
Words like that are very expensive.... 99.9% of the time they're way out of my price range.
Ah, but look at what I actually said, now.
I did not say: go tell everyone you hate exactly how you feel about them. Scream at them, abuse them, tell them to shut up, let it all hang out.
Not at all. Not even remotely.
I did say: unless you can admit to yourself that you feel these things, unless you can recognize in yourself the overwhelming desire to do these things, you are probably going to spend the rest of your life trapped by them, in one way or another, when it's so much nicer [and over so much faster] simply to face them and deal with them.
Using 'you' in the generic sense, and including me in that generic 'you' as well.
Funny timing. I picked up a diet pamphlet yesterday on impulse, while the checkout clerk was having a 20 minute confab with the guy in line in front of me, ringing up one item at a time, with three sentences per item. What I found in it made me chuckle hugely.
It's published by Prevention magazine, and authored &/or edited by a fellow named Bob Greene, who is apparently on Oprah a lot. This is what it says [pages 17 and 18, PreventionGuide 'Best Life Diet Planner']
"With a strong emotional foundation, everything you build ... will stand tall and firm. That foundation begins with four basic cornerstones: honesty, responsibility, commitment, and inner strength. These qualities are the building blocks of success in weight loss and all other facets of life. Here's how they work:
"HONESTY You want to change? Stop wearing blinders. It's essential to be honest about your weaknesses and past failures in order to succeed. ...
"The point of honest self-exploration is not to beat yourself up about your shortcomings. Rather, it's to learn something you didn't know about yourself, or, if you did know it on some level, to finally admit it. ... When you're honest with yourself, you can break unhealthy patterns and build on positive ones.
"RESPONSIBILITY Successful people take responsibility for their past actions. Follow their lead. To begin, stop pointing the blame elsewhere ...
"COMMITMENT Another characteristic of successful people? They keep commitments. ... Your commitment to yourself needs to be sacred.
"INNER STRENGTH Inner strength is often what tilts the scale from failure to success.. ... each time you make the healthier choice, your inner strength flourishes and those temptations become easier to defeat."
Shoot, this is exactly what I've been saying here for years, and it's the gist of what I said on this thread.
It's not controversial; it's not rocket science. Dunno why folks react as though it were.
Storm, I'm pretty sure we agreed here...... and provided the posts just to go over again if you think you need to. I really do think we were agreeing though.... I was just making sure.
Terrific post from Oprah's Guru of weight loss.
You're right... it's not rocket science: )
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Thanks Lighter,
I'm going to go ahead since since one of the two of you ok'd it, and I don't think Hope will mind, based on what I'm going to say.
First, IMO, the two of you are having a wonderful dialogue.
Secondly, when you first replied to me on the thread that was pulled, you said be careful, because you never know what they're going to do, before you said serpentine while I lurk.
Though you used an icon in the first part, for a brief second I felt a bit mocked. It only lasted for a second, because my assumption was that at worst, you were poking gentle fun at me, because my recent worries about what to post where, when etc. were quite evident. I think I even poked a little fun at myself about this very issue when I purposely exaggerated once, saying and, and, and....Never Mind. (I was thinking of Gilda Radner on SNL, but I don't know if that made sense to anyone else when I wrote it.)
I'm ok with some people poking fun, if it's a safe experience. Sometimes, it's just hard to tell, especially in this medium.
I think that's basically all I wanted to say, to describe my experience in that instance, and I must feel ok about voicing it, since I have written this. Thanks for letting me practice my "I" statements !
cats paw
Oh, almost forgot- who asked you if they could be garbed like an amazon just recently? I wanna, too ! I lost mine somewhere about ten years ago!
Carolyn,
Thanks! I see you posted while I was typing.
Hey Catspaw.... I wanted to say.... sorry you felt mocked, even for a minute.
I know how I meant it and it was supposed to make you feel better about lurking..... and not being harrassed for doing so.
When I was having a very bad October last year, I could barely stand to be around other people bc I simply
could'
not
tell
when
other
people
were
using
humor.
I couldn't identify humor!
It was awful.... I felt like a hunted animal.
I couln't post.... could barely read posts here.
I didn't see people's names or remember anything about anyone or who tried to help me from here. Sorry, it's true.
It was what was going on inside of me and this is a place where lots of different people are coming from different places... going in and out of pain.
I can see where it would be difficult to understand anything, much less humor on a board for emotional survivors but.... it's part of my surviving and my ability to see humor again, when I use it.
And I love to use it.
I could look at it this way..... I've healed enough to move on and take my bothersome humor elsewhere..... it does bother some and nobody can process it when they're in pain so...... maybe there's a reason people move on from the board after a while? Because they don't need what the board has or can't post what it needs? Not really sure about that one..... will have to think about it...... makes me think about losing Write...: (
But... there are others here who have healed enough and those that are beginning to heal enough..... that can process it.
Is the humor the problem, or how we process, or that I'm an evil stalking meanie pretending to be something else adn I don't even know it?
I guess it's all part of the process and I truly can see how it could be confusing because I've been confused.
I will say this.... SERPENTINE... Shelly was a line from a movie I really liked. Remeber, where the guy who plays Columbo was meeting dentist father of the guy his son would be marrying soon... and he was a CIA agent.
I insert comedy movie lines and when writing I assume SOMEBODY will get it, but they usually never do so I suppose I should rethink or put a footnote at the bottom: /
Please.... Catspaw... take up the leather breast plate, ::handing CP shiney new BP)
for you.... I definately have to insist on the bronze cat headband and matching arm bracelets..... yes.... matching kitty's on your boots as well: )
\
Must fly into get children ready for school mode now! You are AMAZON!
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Yep I hear ya Izzy.
Tho – have to say, a record player doesn’t have feelings – you nudge it, the only one affected is the nudger as they get a rest from hearing the same thing over and over and over.
This is how I see it:
When the record player is a person – that gentle nudge may feel like a kick in the gut because they aren’t ready to hear that they are stuck in the same groove, the nudger may be misinterpreting that the nudgee is stuck in a groove, when in fact they aren’t, and the nudgee may get offended and say some nasty things.
Then the nudger gets offended cause their getting kicked back, and say some nasty things and the whole purpose of the well-intentioned gentle nudge is lost – and all you get is a major cluster muck with all nudges ending up angry.
And Carolyn, I definitely agree – this whole cluster muck could be avoided if the nudger first checks out how the nudgee feels about being nudged before nudging.
Sometimes, someone inadvertently nudges and in this case, it helps if the nudgee asks the nudger if they intended to nudge, and what was the intent of the nudge. (Similar to your exchange with Lighter when you thought she was being sarcastic). When that happens the potential cluster muck can be stopped in its tracks (as it was with you and Lighter - a good example of communication IMO). When the nudgee doesn’t ask, then we may get a repeat of paragraphs 1 through 3.
If after all of this, there is still a hiccup in the record, the only feasible action I can see is the nudgee needs to stop listening to the nudger until they are ready to hear and the nudger needs to listen to a different record player so they aren’t driven crazy by the repeating sound - kwim? Kinda like letting go of the outcome.
One other piece to consider for the nudgee, is whether the nudger has an agenda different than helping. It may be that the nudger was truly trying to help; however, it could also be that the nudger was nudging to meet their own agenda. The reverse is also true, if the reaction to a gentle, well-intentioned nudge is seemingly over the top, it may be that nudgee was triggered; however, it could also be that the nudgee is blowing things out of proportion to meet their own agenda. (Learned this one from the FOO – had some master Nnudgers and Nnudgees.) Only time can tell when this happens.
Whew – got carried away there. (This is what happens to a post migraine brain) :smile:
Love to you both. Speaking for myself, I appreciate a gentle, well-intentioned nudge most of the time. May not like it, may agree or not with it, but I will always learn something from it.
Peace
PS: I am old enough to know what a record is. Funny thing, I actually had to explain to my D what a record is :shock: – that was a real unpleasant, eye-opening I am old moment :) Kinda felt like I was in a Forrest Gump movie :shock:
PSS: Carolyn - thinking about you. How did the dentist go?
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Finding Peace,
This is from a post-migraine brain? It says everything so well!
cats paw
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Peace,
I will say this......
I prefer to connect instead of conflict.
When it appears there must be conflict..... I prefer it sans nasty.
All you said about the record player and nudging.... is very on target.
I'm going to think about it for a while....
Thanks for sharing all those thoughts: )
How those cool furry boots fittin?: )
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Lighter,
Love my bronze cat headbands and bracelets, and of course my boots. Yes, matching kitties on my boots. Not booties, just because they have matching kitties, but some kick-a boots.
I do so appreciate your saying you didn't want me to feel mocked, even for a minute. The reason I wrote it was to let you know my own inner process. As far as when you said to serpentine, I knew what you meant as far as the verb, but no, I didn't know what your reference was.
Once I was at a seminar, and in one of the sessions, the speaker was talking about the movie "Big" with Tom Hanks. He was asking everyone what one of their all time favorite scenes in the movie was. Well, I took him literally, and one came to my mind. He was trying to get somone to say the one scenes he had in mind, but no one was speaking up. He kept asking for us to say a little something about one of the favorite scenes. Mind you, this session was about adult play. So, I piped up and went "Aaaaack!" and coughed a couple of times like I had a hairball.
He looked at me, knew I was referring to something, but he hadn't a clue, so he asked if I was ok. I replied that I was, and then said "Caviar. The scene when he tried caviar at the party."
Well, everyone lost it then! He went on to say that he was trying to get someone to mention the scene when he played on the
giant floor piano, and then went on to explain that in reference to his session.
I wasn't trying to mock him at all, or cut into his gig. In retrospect, I'll bet he choose to alter that part of his presentation a bit, for those members of his audience who might take his question literally without further clues.
No finger-wagging here, Lighter, as Carolyn said. I just used this as an opportunity to try a bit of writing and telling a story.
You must have been in an extemely difficult place last October, if you, of all people could not recognize humor.
Have you ever been on the receiving end of anyone using humor as a weapon? My mother did that, and has only very recently stopped with her " I was only kidding." I think the reason she has stopped is because she has been called on it.
Again, no comparison, or finger-wagging. I'm just truly curious the points you have raised about humor, and the nuances.
Of course, please disregard anything you don't want to discuss.
OK- Need to go polish my bronze and some other things round ye old dwelling.
cats paw
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Why won't Stormy just leave me alone?
What compells her to keep poking....prodding.....(which feels like bullying)?
Well she can't get away with posting garbage about people!!
She doesn't have the decency to address me directly (but instead, continues to talk----about---- me, like one might about any object).....Will she mind if I do the same then?
Hey ya'll!!
If you feel like it.......read her post and substitute your own name, instead of mine and see what you feel. Just for the heck of it (it's back on page 3). I'm curious to know if anyone else felt like I did?
I feel like I read and computed the message being promoted. Does it bother anyone else when she assumes to know your feelings?
Did you notice her insinuating that you are hateful and dishonest? (when you substitute your name, in her post, where my name is).
I read, awhile back, a thread in which everyone was talking about what they would do....usually do.....etc when they see someone being bullied. Where did all those people go? Awww but this is so insidious......might not be noticed so easily.
Oh oh! Nevermind. Who wants to get accused of starting a conflict? Better to just ......let it go eh?
Usually, I choose to do that but not today.
Thankyou Hops for speaking up. I appreciate your consideration and courage!
I notice no one else agreed with you or supported what you said. I guess a lot of people are all talk and no action, when it comes to letting bullies poke and prod. Saying that someone denies their feelings and taking whatever information one can gain about a person, their relationships, their experiences and then using that info to create some kind of new nasty story, in the guise of pretending to be helpful, is not only hypocritcal but mean......like an experienced bully acts.
I hate it when Stormy tries to make me out to be something I am not or when she proclaims I feel something I do not and when she finishes a story that she has no clue about the end of........and she does so with such superiority. I think she's trying to project her own hate....onto me....for some screwed up reason.
Whatever. :roll:
No thanks. Not interested. I don't hate Stormy. I pray for her and all who have such needs.
I was gonna just ignor this junk but I changed my mind. I was gonna ask Dr. G to remove Stormy's post because I find it offensive but naw......I think I better at least try to deal with this myself, first:
So Stormy:
GET OFF MY ASS AND LEAVE ME ALONE!!
Is that straightforward enough for you?
Sela
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Dear Sela,
I just want you to know that I did not read any of the previous posts on this thread, although I knew it was an old one.
When I saw Hops point out that it was not current, I thought that she was being her usual tidy self and had no idea there was something else going on.
I still don't know what's going on, because I still haven't read back... but in light of my own recent experiences, it was important to me to let say immediately that I was clueless... and why.
And I didn't want to hesitate a moment before saying, I am so sorry you were hurt by this... and I hope you're okay.
Hugs to you, Sela... like I said, I don't yet know the story, but I SO can relate to the feelings you're expressing and I know how badly it hurts.
With love,
Hope/Carolyn
on edit: ((((((((Sela)))))))))
I do see. I hadn't read that pg 3 post before.
It may be mainly because I know a bit of the history that I'm able to understand your reaction now.
Because I've run into the fact that other folks have not understood my own reactions to some stuff/other people, because they weren't there when it began and don't have the full picture, I just don't know how likely it is that anyone can really comprehend... and I don't think that even matters.
At least for myself, that's the conclusion I've come to... if something hurts, I don't have to prove to anyone how much! Good enough to cry, "foul!" and put a stop to the pain.
All I can say is... you've stated your boundary quite clearly here, and that's the best thing any of us can do, I think.
The business of determining whether or not a meeting of the minds could occur is entirely up to the parties involved
and not open to anyone else's opinion or interference, imo. And personally, athough I've only had a bit of practice, I plan to follow suit with laying out such boundaries when I feel that I've been seriously disrespected, because it's far superior to risking a stroke.
I wish you well, Sela.
Love,
Carolyn
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::going back to look at page 3::
Sorry, Sela.....
Didn't mean to hurt you.
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Ahhh... I think I did put my name in place of yours, Sela, as I read that post :shock:
I found it more of a statement on society with Storm using your example as a jumping off point for discussion, than a direct attack on you.
Not sure what the history is between you two, once again.... sorry. :oops:
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Sela,
I can only ask for myself, and very specifically to you- do you mind if your threads bcome springboards for tangents and offshoots
of topics? I am trying to navigate my way, and can only ask for learning purposes for myself.
I do not want to dilute or distract from your communication with others; I am trying to learn people's general preferences, and I don't think I'll be able to do it perfectly, but I can get a general feel for individuals.
Again, I'm not talking about what you just communicated to another person, I strictly mean tangents on topics of threads you started, whether this one, or others.
I always wonder if people are still out there reading, especially those I remember from my very first lurking days.
I do want to apologize for any part of the hurt that is my responsibility.
cats paw
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This question brings to mind a commercial I have been seeing on TV lately. The commercial opens with a little girl asking her Daddy for a puppy and he says "Okay". Then it shows the daughter, (a little older), asking her Daddy to stay up for ten miore minutes before bedtime and Dad says: "Okay, ten more minutes". The next scene shows Dad and daughter shopping for party dresses and she's holding two dresses, in the exact same style but different colors and she's saying "Ple-e-e-a-s-e?" This leads up to Dad and teenage daughter, standing at the kitchen sink, doing the dishes together when this (underage) teenager asks her father to buy her and her friends some alcohol so they can drink it at the house. Needless to say, Dad replies with: "Absolutely NOT!" Kid's response? "I HATE you! You NEVER let me do ANYTHING!" She throws down the dishtowel and stomps out of the room while Dad rolls his eyes. (I can empathize with the Dad knowing that alcohol poisoning can kill youngsters along with a lot of other damage.) In that instance, the daughter's angry reaction ("I hate you") was expected because it seemed to be the very first time Dad had ever said the word "No" to her.
Bones
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Dear Sela,
I’m so sorry for your pain. ((((((((((Sela))))))))))))).
How is your relationship with your daughter these days?
In your original post, you indicated that your mom really hurt you (naturally) when she said “I hate you” & then the psychologist said, in front of your daughter, that it’s ok for your daughter to tell you that she hates you. Wow, that is so triggering and I imagine it made you feel very badly, very voiceless. I think it may have also caused you to re-live your childhood wounds. The psychologist gave your daughter a green light to tell you the very thing that wounded you so badly when your mother said it to you. I’m so sorry for that.
I think you are wonderful for actively trying to improve your relationship with your daughter. As we know, some mothers wouldn’t bother.
I personally think saying “I hate you” is verbal & emotional abuse and I disagree with the psychologist who said it was OK to say these words. Perhaps you could challenge the person who says it’s ok to tell someone to their face “I hate you” by explaining that it’s emotionally & verbally abusive and it’s triggering.
I think the real issue is why someone hates: what is causing the “hate” and is it really “hate” or more like disappointment, fear or anger? I think the word “hate” is a catch-all word that describes other emotions.
Also, I know what it’s like when we go to a psychologist for a family therapy session and the psychologist, who is not on the same page as us, says something which further damages the family relationships.
I read Storm’s post on page 3 and, with all respect to you, I don’t think Storm was bullying you. I don’t see her saying you’re hateful or dishonest. In fact, I think she raises a good point about the double bind, the dilemma: What do we do (what should we do) when we feel a negative feeling (like hate): Should we express it or not (& then feel voiceless)?
What are the consequences of expressing our true feelings (which may be negative) or not expressing them? I suppose this question goes to the essence of voicelessness.
I personally think that it’s OK to express negative feelings towards another if we do so in a way that doesn’t seek to emotionally destroy the other person. To do so, one must have foresight of the consequences of their words & perhaps a teenager lacks that foresight. I think it’s best if we can express our negative feelings in a “gentle” way (that’s what my therapist taught me). So, I think an aware and enlightened person wouldn't say "I hate you", but instead would say "I feel disappointed/sad/angry because you did/said X".
Also, I’ve learned that emotions swirl around in our head, flit back and forth in our brains and then evaporate and are then replaced by different emotions. So, I try not to be ruled by my emotions because they are not always reliable or wise directors of my actions.
I think it takes a great deal of self reflection, self restraint & courage to figure out how to express our emotions (not repress them so that we feel voiceless) in such a way that we are true to ourselves but that we do not emotionally decimate the other person. It’s a balancing act.
I hope things between you and your daughter are better now.
Love,
sally
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Hi Sally,
I believe a bullying experience isn't necessarily intentional in the mind of the bully...particularly when that person is a cerebral type. Having others feel invaded by what one intends to present as edifying commentary may be an accidental side effect.
I think Sela is expressing a feeling of violation, at having an intimate, out-of-date and painful situation resurrected and used as an object of explication for relative newcomers. Particularly with the critical overtones.
I have been there, here, and had to draw the same boundary.
Hops
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Sela,
I wanted to add my apologies. I am so sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you.
I didn't read back through the other posts either.
((((((Sela)))))))
Peace
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Hi Sally,
I believe a bullying experience isn't necessarily intentional in the mind of the bully...particularly when that person is a cerebral type. Having others feel invaded by what one intends to present as edifying commentary may be an accidental side effect.
I think Sela is expressing a feeling of violation, at having an intimate, out-of-date and painful situation resurrected and used as an object of explication for relative newcomers. Particularly with the critical overtones.
I have been there, here, and had to draw the same boundary.
Hops
Hops, I certainly agreee that there are some unregenerate bullies here. I haven't seen that much cerebration among them, though.
The most 'successful' bullies here, in my observation, are, almost without exception, the stealthy kind; the snubbing kind; the kind who make a great public show of lovingkindness and lavish do-gooding, while at the same time making very, very certain that the targets of their dislike have their noses rubbed in that dislike daily.
Subtly, of course, so that the bullies continue to appear blameless, to anyone who isn't paying close attention.
Interestingly, those targets? Their chief sin? Usually, being good at something. Insightful. Articulate. Intelligent.
Now, this is nothing more than gaslighting, nothing other than abuse. It's exactly the same kind of thing that brings people here in the first place - something many people here are desperately seeking to escape. And it is no surprise, ultimately, that it would turn up here.
Wherever people go, they do what they learned to do at home, until they learn how to do something else. If we were raised with courtesy and dignity, we treat others with courtesy and dignity. If we were raised with subtle abuse, we're likely to be subtle abusers ourselves, until we learn another way.
FOO stuff, plain and simple.
Interestingly, although I was at first very puzzled and pained by the bullying that I experienced here - and I've been bullied by pros, for sure - I am reaching the point where I can be grateful to the bullies, because I finally understand what my childhood friends meant when they said... 'they're just jealous'. I never understood that before, but I do now, and it is because of what I've experienced here.
Even better, though, because this is cyberspace, I can look closely at the bullies' behavior and at my own actions, and this gives me negative examples to guide my behaviors. Knowing how not to hurt people is much, much more valuable - to me - than knowing how to hurt them, subtly or otherwise.
But even more valuable than that, there are many things that I see through, now, when I see them being done, or hear them being said, by anyone to anyone. Ploys, maneuvers, hidden agendas just don't stay hidden anymore. It is amazing. It's like having learned another language. And it transfers almost 1 to 1 into realspace.
All in all, I could not have asked for a more useful set of teaching experiences than I have had in my dealings with bullies here. It has been an incredible, amazing gift, made all the more amazing by the fact that there was certainly no intention on the bullies' part to give me anything of value.
And that, I think, is what transcendence really means. What a gift. What a gift!
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[q
Hops, I certainly agreee that there are some unregenerate bullies here. I haven't seen that much cerebration among them, though.
The most 'successful' bullies here, in my observation, are, almost without exception, the stealthy kind; the snubbing kind; the kind who make a great public show of lovingkindness and lavish do-gooding, while at the same time making very, very certain that the targets of their dislike have their noses rubbed in that dislike daily.
Subtly, of course, so that the bullies continue to appear blameless, to anyone who isn't paying close attention.
Interestingly, those targets? Their chief sin? Usually, being good at something. Insightful. Articulate. Intelligent.
Now, this is nothing more than gaslighting, nothing other than abuse. It's exactly the same kind of thing that brings people here in the first place - something many people here are desperately seeking to escape. And it is no surprise, ultimately, that it would turn up here.
OH Dear God,
That is it exactly, Storm. That is how the bullying works.I agree that I got so much more strength from standing up to bullying than by 100 people telling me that I was great.
I found that I could be strong and THIS time --not be prey like I was to my mother.
That is why I want to tell people NOT to run away from "bullies"or any sort of conflict on the board ,but to face it(maybe for the first time in their lives) and to THRIVE.
Thank you. Storm Love Ami
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[Oops. Sorry, Bean. You're right, I can't read your mind.]
I have nothing else to say here...it's just recycling.
See y'all on another thread.
Hops
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Hi Bean,
I'm sorry, I'm being unclear.
That didn't have anything to do with you and I was being opaque on purpose.
I will stop that. I was trying to avoid a pointless, boring drama.
I told Storm way back when that I would no longer dialogue with her, so I was avoiding redrawing a boundary.
I'm not engaging or taking the bait this time (familliar suggestions that I am fake, not a kind person, not spiritual, all that...).
This pattern is what I see recycling:
An Explication of What Happened Here is presented, commenting discursively on the Object's painful situation.
(Same happened to me over anguish I had with my daughter as well, so it seems to be mother-daughter things that trigger it--if the mother's feeling very vulnerable, particularly, that seems to be the blood in the water). The Explication includes Mind-Reading (plus Bonus Fictionailized Motives!), and Ascribed Emotion.
An Intervenor notices potential hurt to the absent Object and attempts to divert that part of the dialogue from flowering among those who haven't experienced the pattern.
The Object arrives and herself also objects, and draws too firm a boundary to cross. So she's off-limits.
The Explicator comes back and slashes She Who Has Thwarted Me. (E.g., the Intervenor. Slash, bait; repeat.)
It's very subtle due to the intelligence and writing skill of the Explicator, but after a few years, it's easy to spot.
I do not engage with Storm for this reason. It goes nowhere. I find it abusive, too.
Sorry I was difficult to understand, there.
I just have nothing more to say, here.
Hope it makes sense now. But this is the best I can do.
(I'm usually softer in my approach. But I'm no-nonsense about this one.)
Hops
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I feel like a schmuck. Sometimes, I wonder why I bother to post, why I spend time here: DID NO ONE HEAR ME????????????????????????????
I JUST POSTED ABOUT EXPRESSING NEGATIVE FEELINGS IN A GENTLE WAY AND THEN PEOPLE PROCEED TO VICIOUSLY ATTACK STORM.
I'M DISGUSTED.
WHAT THE HELL AM I HERE FOR? Why do I waste my time & my voice? Am I wasting my time & my voice?
SOMETIMES THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE FROM THIS BOARD, THIS SO CALLED "COMMUNITY" AND THE STREET CORNER OR THE SCHOOL YARD. YES, I AM ANGRY because I feel FRUSTRATED.
I AM HURT THAT WE STILL CANNOT EXPRESS OURSELVES IN A WAY SO THAT WE DON'T HURT OTHER PEOPLE EVEN IF WE DON'T LIKE THEM.
We don't have to like everyone, but must we blatantly sh*t on them?
We got it: some people don't like Storm: OK: message received. BUT, must people go for her jugular? Can we express our dislike of a person while still respecting their humanity and not treat them like a piece of dirt????
Have we not learned anything? Where is the healing?
I come here looking for kindness, gentleness & wisdom, but instead I find a middle school playground at recess, with threats of reporting the bad girl to the principal (Dr. G). God, do we ever grow out of this????????????
Where is the wisdom? maturity? gentleness? healing?
When this board is good, it can be very good, but when it's bad, it's pointless & destructive.
AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOOWWWWWWWLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hi all,
Referring from page 3 and onward:
Bean, no worries. I took your intentions for resurrecting this thread to be good ones and I still trust they were. You didn't do anything wrong.
Beth, thanks for saying you would have left that doc too. Every bit of validation feels good. Helps me feel like I'm not silly or over sensitive or whatnot.
OC, I guess there are a couple more examples of meanings of those words or what they're expressing, actually. It shows that not everyone feels the deep wound I do when they use them. I'm not sure there's an absolute right or wrong.....there's only what feels right for each of us. This thread sure helped me see that.
Lighter, yep, wrote a few of those letters and sure told that doc a thing or two. Burnt the letters but still....it's a great release eh?
I like your way of taking the opportunity to teach children how to use better words. Some people missed that lesson, I think. I agree it's not about having difficult feelings .....it's about how to express them. I must say though, after I try nice, I do resort to blunt. I do keep praying for more patience.
My daughter is older now and I think she is quite able to communicate her emotions. She wasn't saying: "I hate you" to me, during that session with the T. I was trying to explain my reasons for one of my basic beliefs and the T took the opportunity to contradict me.
Later you wrote: I prefer to connect instead of conflict.
Me too. Sometimes, the only way to connect is to enter into conflict, imo. Or draw a boundary, once conflict does not seem to be resolving.
Carolyn and Lighter, I found your interchange about nudging interesting. Carolyn, it hurts me when I've been misunderstood too and Lighter, what a generous offer for all to join you down by the river...to laugh like children. Sounds so refreshing!!
Catspaw, yep, it's hard to tell what's a safe experience/scenario.....when people poke fun. I've learned that here the hard way (as I have a kind of wackie sense of humour and have joked around a lot....sometimes....at the wrong time....or at least......I'm guilty of not taking into consideration that others may not feel that safe or get my kidding....know I'm kidding even. But never have I meant to harm, so I guess I'm not all bad). I'm sorry you felt mocked too. Not a nice feeling.
I think the thread did take an interesting turn and other than the post I found insulting, I have quite enjoyed it.
Iz, I like your definition of a nudge. The one thing I would like to say about that is......I have to trust the person doing the nudging. Otherwise, I feel put down, rather than pointed in a better direction. Maybe that's just me or maybe that's typical? I have no idea. I'm sure I've nudged others without earning their trust first, so I'll have to pay more attention to that. It would be nice to get the golden rule down pat some day.
Peace, One other piece to consider for the nudgee, is whether the nudger has an agenda different than helping.
Bingo! If one has had difficulties/conflicts in the past with the nudger, they are unlikely to trust that the agenda is a helping one. Personally, I trust my instincts. (and I love the way you got carried away there! Wonderful! Glad your migraine went away!)
I'm not sure why you are apologizing? You didn't hurt me. Thanks for the hugs though. Always, always, thanks for hugs!!
Hi Carolyn again, thanks for saying you do see and for validating my right to draw the line and for the hugs. I appreciate your words and good wishes very much.
I've been away from here mostly....busy with my life and totally unaware of what's been happening here lately (I feel like I've missed something important but I have no idea which threads to read). I came back yesterday to read and noticed a thread I'd started was revived and so, ofcourse, my curiosity got me to read from where it left off.
When I come to the board, I will often read something that I can relate to or I might offer something I hope is helpful or sometimes, I'll see something that gets me thinking further or reminds me of something I haven't thought about in awhile. I was quite surprised and not impressed to see a critical analysis containing stuff ....well, I've already expressed my feelings about that. I didn't need to be told which parts of the bible to read to learn anything and I doubt very much others here need that instruction either. I felt insulted, more than anything and yep.....I made my boundary clear. I've already tried being polite and asking for respectful exchanges. Now, I don't want any.
Thanks for your comments and no worries about not reading the post until later.
Lighter, no need to apologize. You didn't hurt me. I'm not sure why you think you did?
I think I should apologize to you because I should have explained, at least a little, of the history. I should have said: "Imagine the person posting to you is someone you've had major conflicts with in the past". I'm sure, that would have helped to clarify my response to that post. Sorry for not being clear.
Cats paw, absolutely no problem with anyone talking about anything they wanna in whatever thread they choose. It's a free world and a public board. If I want to stick to a topic, I have no trouble asking and people will respond. I don't own any thread or wish to control any, in that way.
I appreciate that you don't want to distract or dilute....that's very considerate of you. Sometimes, it does offend people when that happens but my feeling is....conversations go where ever they go and I don't have a problem with it.
You too......I see no need for any apology. What are you responsible for? What hurt did you cause?
Hiya Bones, I haven't seen that commercial. Again, another meaning for those words "I hate you" (which I guess is really something like......I want what I want and I want you to let me have it). Interesting.
Hi there Sally, you almost got it right. In my original post, I said the T told my daughter "It's ok to say I hate you" (as in....it's ok to use those words toward another person. He wasn't specifically referring to me).
What was upsetting to me was that he was directly and with body language that was quite smug.....contradicting what I had just expressed/explained as one of my basic beliefs. It was the nullifying and belittling effect of his words that upset me. The fact that he, in his position of power, was ....in cyber terms......deleting what I felt/believe and inserting his own feelings/beliefs. That and plenty more.
Thanks for validating my hurt and for pointing out that using those words is emotionally and verbally abusive. I feel abused when those words are said to me.......depending, I guess on who says them. Like you said, the reason for the hate is also important. Also thanks for saying I am wonderful for actively trying to improve my relationship with my daughter. Too kind of you because really, I feel it is my obligation to do so. I'm the parent and I will always feel it's my duty to keep trying to connect with my kids.
Ami, I'm glad you feel stronger when you stand up to a bully. So much better than saying/doing nothing and then feeling trampled on.
Once more, Bean, no apologies needed. Thanks for your validation too. Yep, I'm sick of it. No need to ask Dr. G for help I think. You are clear too and I hope you have been heard.
Hops, see you on another thread and no worries. I don't blame you not to want any further engagement.
Enough is enough!!
Sally, I'm sorry this thread has upset you. Perhaps you would understand if you had been one of the previous attackees. In the last real interaction I had with Stormy, I stated that if she were to speak respectfully with me, I would go there with her. I'm sorry you do not understand how I felt disrespected by her post but I did. I don't find her way of cutting healing. I'm sorry you don't see it and that is quite understandable. I hope you never have to experience that.
Quite the contray, I'm afraid. This is not pointless. I think I've made my point very clear. So have others. You don't get it or understand it but that does not make it bad or destructive. It might be more peaceful, from now on. We'll have to wait and see.
Sela
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Sela,
I just wanted to take a minute to say "hi" to you and to tell you how much I enjoy your posts when you pop in for a minute or two. I especially enjoyed the one awhile back about the dogs and cats! Do you remember? Having had both, I could laugh at how true it was.
I just wanted to take a minute, too, to say that I appreciate the boundary that you set here and the courage it took to express it. I have been following this thread a bit, as I can, and I saw immediately what was happening in Storm's post. Can I say that I am still trying to feel out the proper etiquette for the board, and so didnt know how to respond--if at all? I have been the recipient of the same jabs and have noticed that commenting at the jabber usual escalates things. If you ever notice me "ignoring" such, it's because I truly don't know what would be most appreciated by the jabbee on their behalf. Nothing worse than coming to a jabbee's defense and ending up part of the problem! :(
Hops, I like your analogy about the blood in the water. Most apt. I think that for those people whose mother-wounds have not healed, there are some personalities and situations that bring up too many memories of loss. And that makes me ache for them, although I seem to be one of those personalities.
Sending you much love, Sela,
CB
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Wow, Sela... thanks for taking the time to respond to all the posts...... I was wondering where you went; )
ps I apologized bc I didn't want you to think I was condoning something (bullying) that you felt was happening to you. I just didn't know the history or see it the way you did. I was sorry that you were upset.
I also want to say.... sometimes I skip posts, skim posts, read the first 4 words then move on bc I don't have time to read all the posts here. So..... I might actually MISS something that is obviouse! Pointing something out to me, is perfectly acceptable but I like to be asked for clarification before going straight to breaking bottles on the bar; )
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Dear Sally,
I am responding in a general way,NOT to specific issues on the thread.
Sally, my problem was that I was living,sitting prey in real life. My M made sure that she denuded me of my precious core so I would become living prey. I was a sitting duck for every abuser to S##T on.
That is what happens when we get abused.
I SEE now b/c I STOOD UP for myself.THAT is how I learned.. All the kindness, gentleness and KUMBYA's would not have taught me strength. What taught me strength was getting in the face of my bully and shouting-NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Sally,IMHO, you have an opportunity to stengthen your voice here. It is an opportunity--not a curse.
YES- this ( and every other environment) is like middle school. My H is a doctor and the hospital is like middle school. My S(older) is a manager in a restaurant and that is like middle school. My other s(younger) is in a fraternity in college and that is like a middle school.
When I had a party ,there were woman there who had been joking for a long time about marrying my H and being the "wife'. So,I had to be the best me that I could in THAT setting.
This is my strong opinion. Our main problem is that we cannot cope with real life. When we get our voice, we can protect ourselves. THEN, we will never,ever,ever be abused again.Our strong voice is our INSURANCE policy to every STINKING abuser out there.
Sally,I love and respect you. My passion is for my poor lost core---not any sort of anger toward you
Love Ami
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((((((((Sela)))))))))
((((((((Bean))))))))
I am glad to see people talking openly about this on the board, instead of trying to cover up hurts with smileys and forced civility.
Sela, now I feel like this was a sort of dare to you... and I don't even want to try to imagine the whys behind it. I'm just glad that you declared, "no more!"
Sally, I would like to talk with you about the views you've expressed, but I don't want to hurt or offend you and I'm afraid to be misunderstood right now.
My own personal experience with this is very fresh in my mind - and I did call to Dr. Grossman for help - because I saw no other alternative when JacMac/ Guest101/ Authentic/BC321/etc. would not leave me alone following her last departure from this board.
Remaining silent and ignoring her abuse never changed a thing.
If you'd like to discuss this further, please let me know. For now, I only want to say that there is nothing at all childish, imo, about seeking help from the authorities in place in any situation.
(((((((Sally)))))))) I know this seems to you like a horrible encounter, but I hope that at some point you will see just how very healing it is to be able to speak up and ask for help.
With love,
Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
Glad to see you came through the dental visit ok.
Are you saying that you know for a fact BC321 was Authentic, or were you just stringing together the names of those you felt
would not leave you alone ?
Just need some clarification about the way you wrote that with the /'s.
cats paw
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I've been reading the squabble between Stormy and Sela (I think?) and i have to say that i have no clue what it's all about, but am going to read some of STorm's posts to figure out her style of posting, and see how I feel about it.
~Laura
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Hi Carolyn,
Glad to see you came through the dental visit ok.
Are you saying that you know for a fact BC321 was Authentic, or were you just stringing together the names of those you felt
would not leave you alone ?
Just need some clarification about the way you wrote that with the /'s.
cats paw
Hi, cats paw,
Thanks! Just making a dental appointment takes every bit of my strength, let alone sitting through one and anticipating another one next week, but it's getting easier as I feel more able to take care of myself and my own needs before they become urgent.
I am saying that there is only one person on this board who has refused to leave me alone... so far...
and that is JacMac, who has also used the names guest101, authentic, 321BC (please excuse me, I mistyped it the first time), ABC, RealityCheck, and others.
I'm stating this here as a dose of preventative medicine, because of the repeating nature of the cycle in which this poster engages.
Anticipating the "next time "- and there always seems to be one - creates a level of dread in me of which I am ashamed.
So in the event of another next time, I am stating my intent to not sit quietly and watch my bp rise again, unaddressed.
At such a time, I will speak up immediately and reference this cyclical pattern without shame, and without fear that I'll have to explain my feelings to those who perhaps weren't around to witness the first 16 months of my struggle.
Carolyn
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Wow...I guess it never occurred to me that JacMac was still here, but under different nics. I spose anyone can do that actually. I did it once that I can recall too. As a habit though, I'd rather just be reallyME.
Proud of you too, for going through with the dental appt. I have a teeny filling that needs to be dealt with, but I'm waiting till Medicaid comes through so I can do it at a regular dentist and not have to go through what I did with the extracted tooth.
~Laura
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Good morning all,
Hiya CB, good to see you too. I enjoy reading your posts tvery much too. I hope things are going well in your life now. I'm sorry I haven't kept up.
Thanks for saying it took courage to set such a boundary and I do understand about not feeling sure about when and when not to enter into it all. It's tricky and I have often felt the same. You have to go with your gut, I think.
Which, I must say, I feel guilty about something now...... because I really had no desire nor intention to encourage group think or start a war (rally people, as I have been accused of before....not at all what I had in mind or wanted). Rather, I felt like I was being prodded and pushed (the beginning of the bullying again...the start of ......a pattern.....) and I wanted verification, I guess. Am I nuts or what? Does anyone else see what I see or feel what I feel? Is this starting to happen again? Those are really the kinds of questions I had in my mind and I did not expect so many people to respond as they have.
On the other hand, if a person burns enough bridges, sooner or later they will end up on an island. I honestly had no idea so many bridges had been burnt and can see why this is the ideal opportunity for those who have been feeling a need to express themselves......to do so......some, with gusto. Afterall, the request was that we be straightforward. That's why it is said: "Be careful what you ask for because you might get it".
I'm am truly into trying to understand, asking nicely, being kind with my words, etc, most of the time. But when that doesn't work, I am not afraid to cry out and if I need/want help....I guess it's another delmema....to ask or not to ask. This time I asked and thankyou all for responding. I so appreciate your support.
Lighter, thanks for explaining. I get it. You don't condone bullying. Me either. Thanks for saying so and for your support and your concern for my feelings. That means a lot to me and also is brave of you. Thanks.
I skip/skim posts too sometimes. No worries. There's no law. It is often why I hesitate to post...because I haven't read it all or am not aware of stuff. But sometimes, I read a little and post accordlingly. I think it's all that is possible. Not many have time to read every word of every post on every thread. If so....that person has waaaaaaaay too much time on their hands. Come on over to my house please? Maybe you will help me with my weeding?
Bean, that's it! That's what got to me too! The old "pattern" starting up. Thanks for putting that into words. And yep, lot's of people here will have no idea what we're talking about but it feels so good to know that someone else does know and has said so. I don't think anyone here condones aggression. However, after years of living with a passive agressive.....a person learns to recognize a few things and eventually, one learns to draw a line (or not.....and stays unhappy, in an unhappy situation and feels dominated and victimized......for who knows how long?). Not fun. Been there, done that.
Drama. Is that part of the draw?
Cut!!! :shock:
Thankyou Bean. Abuse is what I hate too and certainly, abuse issss action, not people. People do choose to act though don't they? Enough issssss enough. See you on another thread too.
Hi Carolyn, I agree. Talking openly is much better than hiding and hoping for some kind of magical peace. It just ain't gonna happen like that here I think. I'm not sure what you mean by this being some kind of dare to me but I can assure you, it was just me setting a limit. End of rope type of thingy. Everyone has a limit eh?
Sela
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Hi Carolyn, I agree. Talking openly is much better than hiding and hoping for some kind of magical peace. It just ain't gonna happen like that here I think. I'm not sure what you mean by this being some kind of dare to me but I can assure you, it was just me setting a limit. End of rope type of thingy. Everyone has a limit eh?
Sela
Hi Sela,
Thanks for saying that you didn't know what I meant.
I didn't realize how unclear my statement was and now I see... sheesh, if you had a mind to, you coulda taken that one a mile! I am so glad you didn't... thank you!
What I meant is that I have a sense that you were being dared to come back to the board and fight... like a challenge had been issued.
Since (I think?) that's nothing but my own personal feeling, I apologise to both you and Stormchild, as I have no business expressing that when I am not personally involved. I'm sorry... feeling like I got carried away at that point.
I should have left that out and simply agreed to the fact that - when I put my name in place of yours on that pg 3 post, I did not appreciate it at all.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Hi Everyone,
Maybe I missed something in this thread. I did read it thru, but maybe I missed something. I sometimes miss reading words and sometimes get eye strain from reading computer screens.
Sela: I certainly did not intend to diminish your pain or hurt. One thing I have learned here is the importance of validating people’s pain. My foo often did not validate my pain and so I felt gaslighted for most of my life, thinking I was wrong to feel hurt. Now, if I feel hurt, then that’s what I feel, there’s no “right” or “wrong” about it. So, Sela, I’m sorry if I made you feel that I invalidated your feelings. I never want to do that to anyone. So, I apologize to anyone who feels I invalidated their pain.
I guess I felt triggered because I did not see what Storm did that was wrong, but that’s my perception. I’ll re-read the post again. So, I think this triggered me because my N parents would punish me when I think I didn’t deserve the punishment or the punishment could be excessive compared to the wrong I committed. That’s what I perceived happening here, but that’s my perception, my emotional baggage and hence my triggering.
I am not a Kum-ba-ya person. My tongue can be so acerbic that I could verbally & emotionally strip the flesh off of someone who I perceive as a “wrong-doer”: decimate my opponent. I learned to be that way in my foo because that’s how I was often treated. I was bullied and I therefore bullied others. I want to change this. I don’t want to be a bully, I don’t want to be bullied by others and I don’t like to see that happening to others.
I liked this topic because, to me, it spoke of how does one handle a person that one doesn’t like or hates.
I’m trying to learn how to handle a person that I don’t like without smashing them to bits, to be able to express my dislike, my disgust (so I don’t feel voiceless and I don’t avoid the conflict), while still feeling good about myself, that I left that distasteful person intact and didn’t shame them or wound them further.
That I can say “shu, fly, don’t bother me” instead of taking a hammer and pounding the life out of them; that I don’t harm the other person while still honoring my feelings.
During a conflict and when the conflict ends, I want to feel good about myself, that I haven’t debased myself by using dehumanizing offense & defense tactics (even if my opponent uses them), while still honoring my feelings by not being voiceless and not being a doormat. If the person still persists or does not understand that I want to disengage, I will have no contact with them.
This is something I’m working on and I’m trying to cultivate wisdom, insight, gentleness & healing to achieve it.
I’m wondering: Does anyone else have this goal?
I would like to respond to everyone individually, but unfortunately, I don’t have the time to do so. However, I want to say to Carolyn that I was appalled at what happened to you with those pms. Carolyn, I can imagine that you must have felt attacked and violated. ((((((((((Carolyn))))))). I certainly agree with asking Dr. G to step in and help. I know it sounds cliché, but that person needs help and I hope he/she gets it. And Carolyn, you have been so helpful to me, so this bizarre attack hurts all the more.
Thanks for listening everybody.
Love,
sally
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Sally,
I feel like I can relate to you really well. The analogy you gave of saying "shew fly" versus pounding the life out of it with a hammer...I can identify with that.
Please do keep posting your very descriptive analogies. I feel like I might be doing better in this stuff. I also realize that sometimes it's best to just opt out quietly.
~RM
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Dear Sally,
You expressed your goals so beautifully and eloquently. They are wonderful goals. I understand what you are wanting.
I TRY to conduct myself that way. However, there are never black or white easy answers in life or in behavior.
I was thinking about that today. My goal is to conduct myself in the way that you described. However, to be aware that I will ALWAYS make mistakes along the way.
That is what the Bible calls "repentance" b/c God knows that we will all make mistakes, even the greatest of people.
I guess that the old adage, "That is why they put an eraser on a pencil" applies here.
I am so happy to hear from you ,Sally Love Ami
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Dear Sally,
Thank you so much for your kind and caring response to me.
I really think that we all miss alot here on the board... and it's also so very easy to misunderstand and to be misunderstood.
As you've said, one thing I've learned here, also, is the importance of validating peoples' pain. I've found that the trouble arises when you don't validate the "right" person's pain, because you have more information about a situation than many of the other people observing.
My own personal approach now is to validate everyone's pain and yet remain detached from the "battle" (if there is one) and its outcome.
That way, there is no need to choose sides... only give hugs to the one who is wounded.
One exception, to some degree, is in those instances when I've observed and been directly effected by an ongoing pattern.
But from my experience, some folks don't want what I can offer... hugs, empathy, and words of comfort. It's when they want a battle companion... someone with whom to join forces and attack the perceived enemy... that I must withdraw.
What I know is that I cannot fight anyone else's battles... and for some, the battle never ends.
(((((((Sally))))))) I do understand the triggering. This stuff used to tear me apart, just to even observe... and I didn't even know why I was so terrified. Not being able to identify all those feelings just made me want to run... and I often did.
But you are doing so well!
All that you've written here about the way you want to conduct yourself during conflict... it's so admirable, Sally; and, to me, that's just exactly what you've done here, as you've talked through your thoughts and feelings and struggles with us. I am so glad you didn't hold it all in... I don't want anyone to go through that, like I did, because it's so terribly destructive. This is a safe place to be expressive in that way... and it's by practicing as we do here that we can each learn to fine tune our communication skills.
I share your goal. I know that I have a long way to go toward achieving it, but I'm committed to the work. I don't have it in me to slam someone outright, but if I let myself get into my head and write from atop my crumbled old ivory tower, I can surely allow my words to release some improper sentiments.
I've practiced enough now that I can tell whether I'm writing from my head or from my heart... and just hush when it's all from the mind.
Okay, take an extra bp med, pray, and hush... but that's easing up, too.
More hugs, Sally... I am so glad you're here.
With love,
Carolyn
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Peace.... I don't think a nudge is mocking, in any shape.
A mock is a mock... and that's about that.
Intentions..... are very important.
I'm not saying I've never lost patience.... I'm not saying my nudges are always sweetness and light... because they aren't.
Speaking of being nudged out of our comfort levels..... I posted about the movie....
THE GAME a bit back.
That's an EXTREME nudge and the poor protagonist, Michael Douglas, was wholey unhappy with the course of events.... leading up to his life changing epiphany. I'm a firm believer that we don't learn nestled in our comfort levels.... not that I'm the Judge and Jury.... not that I decide who deserves a nudge and who doesn't.
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Hey Lighter,
I am glad about the mocking part - didn't want you to think I was saying that you were mocking when I used the term nudge.
I couldn't agree more with everything you said – especially, especially the part about intentions being critical. And you are right - no one is perfect.
The Game is a great movie - remember sitting on the edge of my seat with that one, it is a great example (yes extreme) of nudging past the comfort level.
Happy Halloween (http://img1.jurko.net/76832910042e3fa91e35d8.gif)
Peace
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Hello everyone,
Hahahahahaha Carolyn! Just shows me how mixed up I get. I thought you meant that I was doing the daring or something. No need to apologize though. It did feel as you described so you weren't maybe as far off in your thinking/feeling as you might now think. Either way I don't think it much matters. No one can say everything perfectly so don't be spanking yourself. Look at me. :shock: I get foot in mouth disease on a regular basis. I trust your intentions and they matter.
Thanks for explaining what you meant. Sometimes it's so easy for me to misunderstand. :roll:
Sally, not to worry. I know stuff triggers us all at times. And it would be hard for you to see much at all without having been around here for awhile (when it comes to the dynamics of board relationships between myself and Stormy, I mean). I think another thing that upset me too was that I also liked this thread and it felt like an attempt to defile it. It was a good thread with many insights and heartfelt interaction and then......
like a stink bomb went off.......phew!!!! Like arson!
I’m trying to learn how to handle a person that I don’t like without smashing them to bits, to be able to express my dislike, my disgust (so I don’t feel voiceless and I don’t avoid the conflict), while still feeling good about myself, that I left that distasteful person intact and didn’t shame them or wound them further.
I can only restate that I tried before now to disengage as peacefully as possible. I felt like an attempt was being made to shame and wound me and my reaction may not be typical or even likable but it was healthy.
That's my opinion, mind you.
If the person still persists or does not understand that I want to disengage, I will have no contact with them.
But how do you have no contact with someone who drags up your old post and assigns nasty feelings to you and makes you out to be dishonest with yourself (and insinuating.....more??) and who then goes on to tell you what passages in the bible to read to heal yourself or teach yourself or whatevertheheck?
How many times do you ignor such junk?
Where is your breaking point?
You saw mine yesterday. I'm not interested in ignoring that kind of behaviour since ignoring it is a way of enabling it. By ignoring it, I would have felt silenced. My choice to yell and complain and ask for help makes me feel like I did the right thing when I needed to. I'm sorry if you think it was the wrong choice. I hope you never have to make it.
This is something I’m working on and I’m trying to cultivate wisdom, insight, gentleness & healing to achieve it.
I’m wondering: Does anyone else have this goal?
I betcha lot's of us do. I do. But who has the right to come along and start analyzing the job I'm doing? Should I trust people I've had major conflict with to do that job for me? What if I don't want to hear that person's take on me? What if I think they'd be better of working on themselves and leaving me alone?
I understand that you had no way of knowing any of this so please hear that I am not berrating you. I'm trying to explain how it was for me and to let you know that you and I may not be all that different.
I don't believe I made a mistake or behaved badly or did anything wrong. If someone comes at me with a knife, I'm not going to stop and ask them nicely to put it down. I'm going to use whatever skill I have to defend myself. The same goes for verbal attacks. I might ask nicely a couple of times (which I have done previously) but after that....the person gets to see my bad side....big time.
And we all have one.
If that doesn't work, then I would certainly ask Dr. G to intervene as I doubt very much he would condone the continued cyber-stalking or whateverit'scalled.
Thankyou for coming back and talking about your feelings. I've felt the exact same thing sometimes when I watched and didn't really know the details. I just wish we could all get along but I do understand when people feel the necessity to put up a boundary when that isn't happening.
I hope this helps.
Sela
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Hi all
It's been interesting - not to mention ironic, given the thread title - to see the depths of hatred expressed here by Hops and Sela [and Bean] following my last post.
If my point about hatred festering and coming out sideways when denied needed any proving, that, at least, has been accomplished.
I recommend reading this thread
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=2673.0
to see why Sela has a chip on her shoulder where I am concerned. The thread referenced in it was, unfortunately, deleted by Jac when she left the board before returning as authentic.
I also recommend reading this one
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=3302.msg54555#msg54555
for those who want to know why Hops is holding a grudge.
Read them, while they're still available to read; then decide who the bully is.
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By the way, my initial post was IN SUPPORT OF Sela's right to her own feelings, and her daughter's right to HER own feelings as well, but not in support of anyone attempting to stifle and conceal one's own feelings of hate.
That's just unhealthy. Such feelings should be dealt with.
We have excellent examples now, in this thread, of what happens when people refuse to deal with them.
"Stink bomb"? "Defiled"?
Q.E.D.
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Call me a coward but I just don't want to post this as myself for fear of being ridiculed here - or at worst attacked.
Somethings been bothering me all day and I want to put this out there and damn the consequences, although obviously I'm not willing to do so as "myself". I just want to make a small suggestion and take it or leave it -- I think since Authentic is no longer here and obviously left with some issues of her own that it would be best to just leave her to work on her own issues and not attack her behind her back.
She has no opportunity to defend herself at present and I for one enjoyed her voice and even agreed with a lot of what she said - yes, maybe not everything but I don't wish her ill or think she's a bad person at all and I hate to see her put in that box,
slapped with the label and shelved. Good riddens! We all say and do things when we're triggered and why should she be any different?
I just think a little grace and forgiveness is warranted here (and I'm quivering again) a little letting go. She's gone and that's that. If there was an opportunity for healing whilst she was here I could see the worth in bringing her up but she isn't and it doesn't seem likely that she'll be back so why not lets leave her alone, huh?
I don't think that's too much to ask.
Also as for this present conflict I think the people involved are speaking for themselves quite nicely so I won't butt in. Thanks for listening.
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Is it ok?
when you are a kid ...yes!....
.....as an adult there are other words other than 'hate'!
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Carolyn and Lighter,
What I love about your dialogue is that you are so different, yet it's so visible how you are taking steps toward accepting and understanding each other. You'll never have remotely similar voices or styles, and yet, you are curious and open enough, and have good-will...so that it looks like a respectful and safe communication. It's been engaging and illuminating to read, thank you!
Carolyn, in my mind you are characterized by caring carefulness. It feels like part great sensitivity, but also great commitment to serious and loving ideals. You really want harmony and understanding, and you are sensitive not only to the thought of being misunderstood, but just as much to the notion of you misunderstanding. It feels to me like those motives mostly balance each other in you, so you can keep engaging with most folks. Very lovely to see. (I bet your H is besotted with you.)
Lighter, you are sharp as a clamshell edge. Your humour lays me out sometimes, and never offends me. I think that's because I can feel the difference between a brief moment of snark (you described that in a way that helped me make peace with my own snark-bursts) and a slicing. Other times, I am delighted by your graphic wit, the way you play with words and space, so I feel as though you're sketching your communication as well as writing it. Lastly, the burlesque side of me just loves your inner goof. You may, in fact, be the reincarnation of a French bulldog.
Botha youse, I could of course be way off base (please disregard anything clueless), but I love the chance to describe people to themselves in a positive way. That has been offered so generously to me here so many times. Time for some payback!
love
Hops
WHAT FUN, lol!
Hops..... I know nothing about little foreign bulldogs but..... that was surely a compliment and I really enjoyed reading it, lol!
I like thinking of myself as French, in any case.... lol; )
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Peace.... YES! YES! YES!
Happy Halloween!
I JUST LOVE HALLOWEEN!
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Call me a coward but I just don't want to post this as myself for fear of being ridiculed here - or at worst attacked.
Somethings been bothering me all day and I want to put this out there and damn the consequences, although obviously I'm not willing to do so as "myself". I just want to make a small suggestion and take it or leave it -- I think since Authentic is no longer here and obviously left with some issues of her own that it would be best to just leave her to work on her own issues and not attack her behind her back.
She has no opportunity to defend herself at present and I for one enjoyed her voice and even agreed with a lot of what she said - yes, maybe not everything but I don't wish her ill or think she's a bad person at all and I hate to see her put in that box,
slapped with the label and shelved. Good riddens! We all say and do things when we're triggered and why should she be any different?
I just think a little grace and forgiveness is warranted here (and I'm quivering again) a little letting go. She's gone and that's that. If there was an opportunity for healing whilst she was here I could see the worth in bringing her up but she isn't and it doesn't seem likely that she'll be back so why not lets leave her alone, huh?
I don't think that's too much to ask.
Also as for this present conflict I think the people involved are speaking for themselves quite nicely so I won't butt in. Thanks for listening.
Dear Quivering,
I have not ridiculed or attacked JacMac/all those other names she uses.
I have not analyzed, critiqued, belittled, or demeaned her in any way.
Those are the things she has done to me, Quivering... to me and to many, many others here in this group, repeatedly, time and time again, over a period of many years.
Here I have made two direct statements about JacMac's behavior toward me:
My own personal experience with this is very fresh in my mind - and I did call to Dr. Grossman for help - because I saw no other alternative when JacMac/ Guest101/ Authentic/BC321/etc. would not leave me alone following her last departure from this board.
Remaining silent and ignoring her abuse never changed a thing.
and
I am saying that there is only one person on this board who has refused to leave me alone... so far...
and that is JacMac, who has also used the names guest101, authentic, 321BC (please excuse me, I mistyped it the first time), ABC, RealityCheck, and others.
I'm stating this here as a dose of preventative medicine, because of the repeating nature of the cycle in which this poster engages.
Anticipating the "next time "- and there always seems to be one - creates a level of dread in me of which I am ashamed.
So in the event of another next time, I am stating my intent to not sit quietly and watch my bp rise again, unaddressed.
At such a time, I will speak up immediately and reference this cyclical pattern without shame, and without fear that I'll have to explain my feelings to those who perhaps weren't around to witness the first 16 months of my struggle.
That second quote explains why I am making these statements now.
It is not easy, pleasant, or comfortable for me to do so - especially under my own name here, as myself, fully accountable for my own words. It is very difficult for me to write these things.
I understand your choosing a guest name, Quivering, and I understand who you are, too.
It's okay... I'm not upset with you.... I just think it's sad.
I've known how you feel about this for quite some time.
In fact, I was in your shoes last year for awhile and so I know how that feels... I agreed with alot of what she said here at that time...
but then I saw the rest of the story, and the picture became complete. Things are not always as they seem... that is a fact.
I do not wish her ill and I do not wish you ill, Guest. I just think it's sad... and I'm sorry you don't like me, or value me... but I can't convince you that things are as I see them, nor can I pretend like it's okay for someone to treat me like JacMac has and just ignore it.
It's more important to me to live in the truth than it is for me to have people think I'm "nice"... and really, that's what it comes down to.
That is not selfish of me.
So I'm posting to you now in the hopes that you will read that last quote of mine up there again and perhaps gain a better understanding. This is not sour grapes on my part. I do not feel hatred for this person who has bullied and harassed me. What I feel is relief that she is not allowed to continue this behavior here. It was her own consistently poor choices in behavior which led to this consequence, Quivering.
If I do not make a deliberate choice re: my own behavior here and now, I will suffer consequences as well, so this is the choice I have made.
I don't think you realize how very many times this same scenario has occurred here. You couldn't know unless you'd been there... and for your sake, I'm glad you didn't have to experience it.
I hope that maybe you can relate this to how you felt when your mother would contact you and proceed to tear you to shreds, fiber by fiber, picking you apart and demanding that you love her anyway, that you meld with her in every way and give her your absolute devotion, and never ever complain about the way she was treating you, lest you begin the entire cycle of scorching abuse all over again.
Maybe you can have a bit of empathy for me, Quivering.
I could not even speak of this until recently, until my blood pressure was 210/110 and I felt my heart would explode.
Even now with meds for it, it skyrocketed yesterday as I wrote those two short posts about this on this thread.
Today it's better, even as I type... and I know why. It's better because my mind and heart are in unison finally.
Now I know that I will not allow this to happen to me again.
I know that because I dared to say this here...
that this is not an attack any more than it was an attack on my Npd-ex when I told the sheriff's dept that he violated the restraining order and broke into my home.
This is my announcement of a protective order in place around my soul,
because JacMac or whatever she chooses to call herself next time will not impact my well-being again,
because if she returns here, I will speak immediately and quote this very post.
Wouldn't we all like to play a tape recorded "leave me alone" to the abusers in our families, rather than ever have to deal with them again and endure that shredding?
Well, this is my tape recorded message.
Thanks for reading. I really hope you'll understand.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Hope, lol..... whoever Quivering is..... they did appear to be saying someone was attacking Jac and putting her in a box... which is unfortunate bc Jac's own behavior sort'a did that on it's own.
No need to try and pass the buck and make her behavior someone else's responsibility.
Hope needed to talk about her feeling of being harassed, over a period of time, by Jac and that seems perfectly reasonable to me, considering it was the reason Jac was banned from the board.
I don't think Dr. G wanted to hear anyone defending that kind of behavior but that shouldn't silence Hope from talking about her feelings in the matter.
Just my opinion.
And oh ya...
Quivering....
::whispering::
coward, lol; )
Now.... here comes the disclaimer for my attempt :shock: at humor.
Quiver may or may not be able to laugh at anything today.... I have no idea.
She also may just plain ol not appreciate MY sense of humor. ::shrug::
So.... I'll just say that she lightheartedly asked to be called a coward in her post......
I obliged,
with the same lighthearted humor in mind...
not to belittle, attack, turn over a new evil leaf :twisted:
or mock anyone.
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Carolyn, thanks for taking the time to reach out. I'm sorry for the pain you suffered.
I feel though that you're expressing your opinion and also expressing it for others and I don't share that opinion at all.
I don't say that to invalidate; I hear your pain and I'm sorry for it. Authentic also experienced pain here, her fair share.
She was the victim of lots of attacks as well. When I'm pushed I also push back. I don't believe you or anyone else here it different.
I was not obviously just speaking to you but you felt that I was and that is important.
I understand all that you are saying and I thank you for your honesty and candor.
I just hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to be able to see that all that you describe about yourself, I'm sure Authentic felt as well. I hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to see her as a human being, also, full of flaws and sinful -- like you are, so that you can let go of the past and allow yourself to move past that place.
Authentic had problems with this board from long ago, she came back here and tried to make amends but as I see it only a few people were able to accept the new her -- some even cling to her old name, not giving her another chance. I don't think that's good for Authentic or the people who can't let it go. In fact, when Authentic was here in the past, she was never a bad person and I think you, Carolyn, even formed some kind of close friendship with her that obviously went bad.
I think it is all well and good to practice sticking up for ourselves, in fact ironically this is what Authentic herself was working on when last here but few gave her room to do that and few could interact with her based on who she had grown to be and only would look at her as who they felt she once was, which in my mind was not an accurate whole picture.
Authentic, like all of us here, had and has good and bad qualities. Sorry, Authentic for speaking of you while you're not here but I feel this is necessary. Authentic you are a good person, a normal person with faults. I wish you'd come back but if I were you I wouldn't ever either. I'd be too uncomfortable and afraid.
I hope and pray that in the future the board won't be so unforgiving and that now, even though I cowardly do not use my own name, that I have brought the matter forward Authentic, as she asked to be called, can have rest here in this place and need no longer be the focus of so much dislike. I think we can all grow and learn if we sincerely just let her go.
Thank you again for allowing me to express my opinion. I see that even though I have, some people have such a need to continue that they cannot sad. It is just an expression of themselves and not Authentic at all.
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to see the depths of hatred expressed here by Hops and Sela [and Bean] following my last post.
Stop assigning feelings to people. Anger (on edit....mostly my feeling, at this point) expressed does not add up to hate. It's as if you can't tell the difference and have no respect for anyone's rights but your own.
By the way, my initial post was IN SUPPORT OF Sela's right to her own feelings
I did not feel supported. It's as if you cannot hear or see or feel anything but what directly comes from your own head.
Intention counts but you're not stating that it was your intention. You're stating that it is factual and it isn't (it was in support...no it didn't come across that way....it didn't feel that way to me......your words are hurtful and you don't even seem to see it or take repsonsibility for it or consider fixing it). Your words didn't feel supportive to me or to some other people, when they inserted their names in the place of mine (if they knew the history between us).
Just leave me alone! Stop talking about me, about my posts, about my feelings, dragging up the same old threads as some kind of proof of anything and stop talking about anything to do with me. Go ahead and believe that I am the bad person you want to believe I am. I don't care. Just get off my butt!!
Stop analyzing and commenting on anything I have to say and go work on yourself!!
Pretend I don't exist. That suits me fine.
Sela
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Guest Quivering,
Just a few things here...
You wrote:
"I feel though that you're expressing your opinion and also expressing it for others and I don't share that opinion at all."
You feel that I am expressing my opinion for others?
I don't understand that statement and it doesn't make sense to me.
I have clearly stated that what I'm expressing here has been my own, repeated experience on this board.
It is not my opinion, it is documented fact.
Whether or not others choose to post in validation of that experience or to speak of their own individual experiences is their choice.
I would never ask anyone else to do that for my sake.
I've never asked anyone else to agree with me publicly that what I've experienced is abuse, until I called out to Dr. G in desperation.
I do not ask you to agree with me in any way... because I realize that there is no way that you could share my opinion, since you have not shared my experience. In fact, you were not present on the board during much of it.
Really, what I'm seeing here is that your disagreement is with Dr. Grossman's opinion.
He labeled one posted pm which was sent to me by JacMac (under one of her numerous aliases) "harassment".
Fortunately for me, Dr. Grossman's view overrules your opinion.
You wrote:
"I was not obviously just speaking to you but you felt that I was and that is important."
This statement I find very concerning, Guest Quivering.
You were not obviously just speaking to me?
Since I am the one on this thread who is issuing my boundaries vis the poster known from the inception of this board as JacMac,
I think it was pretty obvious to whom you were speaking.
I felt that you were speaking to me and "that is important"?
I don't understand that statement.
I didn't "feel" that you were speaking to me.
I thought that you were speaking to me, albeit quiveringly, since I am the one who raised the topic of JacMac.
I don't like the feeling I get now though... as though you're trying to imply that I somehow ltsome other motivation and so I made this giant leap of presuming that you were posting to me?
Imo, it was only natural for me to think that you were posting to me, Guest.
As for the rest of your post, I have numerous feelings, and none of them pleasant.
Mostly I feel that you are attempting to re-write a history with which you are unfamiliar, because you were not present to witness the entire pattern and you've only been willing to hear one side of it.
That gives you a skewed perspective, imo, and so I feel very uncomfortable and... cynical... about your speaking as an authority on this person whom you barely know.
Also, I hear you comparing my pain with the pain of the person known to this board as JacMac, as though the fact that we're both hurting somehow levels the entire field.
The problem with your reasoning there, as I see it, is this:
I have not lashed out at her. I have not made vile accusations and insinuations, berating and belittling her or anyone else.
I have not refused to stop mistreating others, directly and indirectly, and just move on with my own healing.
The fact is, Guest Q, I left the person I know as JacMac entirely alone during her most recent stint on this board.
I did absolutely nothing to bar her progress toward healing.
She is the one who chose to, yet again, lash out at me. I will not allow that to occur again.
What your comparison tells me about you is that, although you claim to validate and hear my pain, you really don't think my pain is all that significant.
It's as though... I should buck up and hush, but it's okay for the person you're advocating to lash out at will, repeatedly, at anyone in her path.
That is wrong, Guest Q. Very, very wrong.
It is also wrong of you, imo, to try to link my legitimate claims of pain and harassment to the manner in which anyone else on this board behaved or continues to behave. I am not those other people. You label these peoples' behaviors "attacks"; that is your opinion, not mine, and not necessarily the opinion of anyone else here on this board.
So now, because of what I'm feeling about your last post, I've decided that I'm drawing a boundary with you, as well, Guest Quivering... in both your guest mode and under your regular screen name.
That boundary is = I will not share my feelings with you any further, or expose myself to your opinions any further... not because we disagree on this issue, but because I both hear and feel you invalidating my experience and trying to guilt and shame me into a return to voicelessness. I won't post to you, or regurgitate any of this, or remind you of it, or attack your character before others, or imply that you're a bad person. I simply won't engage you in discussion.
Again, I remind you that it seems to me your real disagreement here is with the moderator of this board, and not with me.
I will not speak of this again, unless it becomes necessary because of another appearance of the person who has repeatedly harassed me. That person, as I know her, is JacMac.
Again, at that time, I will quote my "tape recorded message" as posted here and repeat my personal request to be left alone by her.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Sela,
I want to apologize to you for carrying out the finalization of my own loose ends in the midst of your boundary-setting here.
The thought of beginning another separate thread left me feeling naked and overwhelmed. Thank you for your patience and tolerance in allowing me to finish this here. I'm done, thank God.
Your last post here to Stormchild is just exactly how I feel about this stuff that's been weighing on me.
I don't have any grudge against anyone, but I do see these things and finally am beginning to recognize which ones are out of my league to handle. I am not making much sense right now, I know, but just wanted you to know that I feel what you wrote.
I feel it from two directions, Sela...
this part:
It's as if you cannot hear or see or feel anything but what directly comes from your own head.
Intention counts but you're not stating that it was your intention. You're stating that it is factual and it isn't (it was in support...no it didn't come across that way....it didn't feel that way to me......your words are hurtful and you don't even seem to see it or take repsonsibility for it or consider fixing it).
This is how I was when I didn't know where my feelings were hiding or what they even were.
It was all I could do.
The transition from that state to where I am now has been like an earthquake, followed by aftershocks.
It is absolutely eerie to me to read you describe what I used to sense within myself and in others.
When I try to reason out what it was exactly which brought me out of that condition, I can only guess that it was lonliness?
It is deathly quiet up in that ivory tower.
I am nowhere near as adept with vocabulary and sentence structure as others here, but I gave a pretty good shot at it for awhile there, last year when I was on this board. Gave it a re-charge when I first came back this year and talked with you, Sela... and again, I'm sorry.
That wasn't me. I was still partially in that old mental cocoon.
I am glad you're where you are and who you are, Sela. I remember telling you once that I didn't really think I needed to trust you in order to talk with you. How ignorant of me! What a load of hot air.
Well, now I do trust you.
Thank God things change... and so can people, if they're willing.
With love,
Carolyn
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Oh Carolyn,
Your post brought tears to my eyes. I just want to hug you ((((((((((((Carolyn)))))))))))
Funniest of all.....I tried to pm you, a little while ago, to tell you what a great job you did in your previous to this post....of my admiration for how well you express yourself (and I wrote that I often feel like my words tumble out like laundry out of the dryer.....all clean but all muddled up).....but the pm wouldn't go through ........and I wanted to say how sorry I am for all of the pain you endured here, which I was totally unaware of, and how unfair that is because this is supposed to be a place to grow and no one should have to spend their energy warding off abusers here (however......the world is not a perfect place and so who am I to expect so much??). I'm glad a person can cry out for help when they need it and that Dr. G is here to answer those cries, if necessary.
Thankyou Dr. G.
No worries, Carolyn. Finish up whatever you need to here. I'm not in charge of any thread.
I do want to say that my sense was and stilll is that you have never not seemed to be trying to be honest and straightforward, nor have you tried or (obviously) intentionally used hurtful words and then shirked your responsibility.
(That's one way to express hate isn't it?---intentionally and in a twisted way using hurtful words and then doing your best to shift or defy responsibility? Maybe?).
I also want to say, Quivering:
I just hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to be able to see that all that you describe about yourself, I'm sure Authentic felt as well. I hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to see her as a human being, also, full of flaws and sinful -- like you are, so that you can let go of the past and allow yourself to move past that place.
I hope that God is not offended by your attempt to place the responsibility for peoples vision at His feet.
We all have our own view. Why does God have to be dragged into it?
Maybe what you're talking about is compassion? Are you trying to say: "Please let's have compassion for eachother"?
Yes, good! I like that idea! Wonnerful!
Maybe we can start by cleaning the wax out of our ears? If someone says: "Leave me alone!!", let's all hear that and respect it. Let's have compassion enough to accept their wish and not question or belittle or do anything to try to change it.
Let's not challenge their reasons or feelings or experiences or opinions or try to help them see anything or ask God to help them see anything or anything else. Let's just have compassion for them and let them be.
K?
Sela
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And this deserves a post of it's own:
Well, now I do trust you..
Thankyou for your trust, Carolyn. Thankyou so much for saying that.
Thank God things change... and so can people, if they're willing.
And Thank God for giving people the free will to decide and the strength to choose.
Sela
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Carolyn: What your comparison tells me about you is that, although you claim to validate and hear my pain, you really don't think my pain is all that significant.
It's as though... I should buck up and hush, but it's okay for the person you're advocating to lash out at will, repeatedly, at anyone in her path.
That is wrong, Guest Q. Very, very wrong.
It is very frustrating to not be heard or to be heard but invalidated.
Carolyn: So now, because of what I'm feeling about your last post, I've decided that I'm drawing a boundary with you, as well, Guest Quivering... in both your guest mode and under your regular screen name.
That boundary is = I will not share my feelings with you any further, or expose myself to your opinions any further... not because we disagree on this issue, but because I both hear and feel you invalidating my experience and trying to guilt and shame me into a return to voicelessness. I won't post to you, or regurgitate any of this, or remind you of it, or attack your character before others, or imply that you're a bad person. I simply won't engage you in discussion.
That sounds like very reasonable, self-protection
just hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to be able to see that all that you describe about yourself, I'm sure Authentic felt as well. I hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to see her as a human being, also, full of flaws and sinful -- like you are, so that you can let go of the past and allow yourself to move past that place.
God, in His not only goodness, but JUST nature, will decide what is what since HE alone knows the hearts of the people involved in this. Even God referred to people as "hippocrites" in His Bible, as well as describing the behaviors of those people as WRONG and CRUEL. If you do want to "drag" God into it, just realize that two of the main sides of God, are Goodness AND JUSTICE...JUSTICE will prevail because "your sin will find you out" and "the things hidden in the darkness will be revealed." That goes for ANYONE on this board, including me.
~Laura
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If you do want to "drag" God into it, just realize that two of the main sides of God, are Goodness AND JUSTICE
Who died and gave you orders to tell anyone what to realize? (and who gave you the great knowledge of what anyone realizes or doesn't realize?).
I don't see the point of your saying this, other than to belittle.
Sela
PS: Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding? If so, I do apologize.
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Actually, my orders come from God, but that was not why I posted what I did. I was trying to let all of you know that He is both just and caring and that He alone knows all of your hearts and the hearts of all of us, and He will sort through all of this.
If you want to be angry with me, that is your choice, but I do hear from God and I do know a lot about His nature.
~Laura
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Uh uh uh!
I'm not angry with you. Please don't decide that for me. I simply asked a couple of questions to explain how your post sounded to me.
Thankyou for your explanation of why you posted it etc.
Sela
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Dear Carolyn,
Hugs to you!
I am so sorry to hear about your pain; I had no idea about the past between you and authentic, or that you even had these major conflicts with her.
After reading your posts, I realize that i probably trod on your toes a few times, with my open praise of authentic, and it may have seemed that I was invalidating your feelings. I think thats how I would feel, anyway. I really am so sorry for that...I had no idea that this was the case, and i hope i have not hurt you.
Love to you,
X bella
PS. Quivvering guest, I'm sorry you feel the need to hide your name. Authentic made a good impression on me as a newcomer too, so I know how you feel.
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I am sorry, Sela. I really was not telling you that you were angry. I was stating that you seemed that way and that if you were, that was your choice to be.
I'm glad you are not and I am glad you might understand why I posted what I did.
~Laura
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Not to worry Laura.
I'd rather ask a million stupid questions than make a stupid mistake.
(stupid mistake being a misjudgement on my part).
Nope. Not mad at all. Apology accepted and thanks again.
Sela
PS: On edit...Once more, sorry I misunderstood.
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Thank you, Sela... for all you've written to me here. (((((((((((Sela))))))))))))) I feel so much better!
Calm and centered and integrated.
This place really is extraordinary... and so are you!
About the messaging... I have had some pm's blocked for many months (yours was one).
With my level of fear of conflict, that was the only way I felt safe.
At this point, I would prefer to keep all discussion, with everyone, on the main board.
It's better for me that way... partly to hold myself accountable and prevent myself from engaging in gossip
and partly because I've recognized that I have always been very susceptible to and quite easily influenced by the feelings and opinions of others. I consider it a disability of sorts and that's not something which I can just *snap* overcome... so I need to really guard against an overabundance of input.
Aside from all that, I hope it's okay to just share something with you, Sela... in general... because I'm just struck again at how very different you and I are from each other.
And Hi to Laura ... I am about to mention your name and wanted to acknowledge you and thank you for your comments here... I understand what you were saying about God being love and justice... and I agree... those two qualities do not conflict.
okay, here's my little story...
I could never play sports involving a ball, for instance... because I'd see that thing zooming toward me, wince, close my eyes, and duck. Didn't matter how much confidence I had in the person throwing the object my way... that was my reflex.
I don't know what it's called, but it really does feel a bit crippling... and I'm still that way to a great extent.
So when I read or hear someone with great forcefulness of emotion and directness of speech (without the...ermm... foo foo stuff), I tend to shy away. It is in no way a judgment of the other person, or anything personal whatsoever... just the way I am.
Like when I read what you posted to Laura about her reference to God, Sela...
stuff like that makes me squirm. Your PS softened the tone of it... but first I squirmed.
I'm not saying this to critique your style, Sela... honestly. I am so glad that we're not all the same! How dull that would be!!
Only saying... I maybe couldn't have received what came after that post, if you and I hadn't just had an excellent communication between us, full of understanding. And I needed to hear what came after,
because when Laura said, "If you want to be angry with me, that is your choice..." - that is exactly how I felt.
I didn't know that was wrong communication... because I thought you seemed angry in your reply to her, too.
Alright, so I am starting to understand, how not to read too much into the words on the page/screen... how not to assume... and I hope that we can talk about this more, elsewhere maybe... because I would really like to get over my own kneejerk reactions to what I hear of peoples' tones... even in print.
It all wound up with a sigh of relief for me, anyhow, because it sounds like Laura understood what you were saying and everything wrapped up okay... but I could easily have gone into hiding immediately after phase 1. So thanks to both of you for setting the example that you have on this. I thought it was really good and helpful.
Love to you both,
Carolyn
Thank you, Bella... hugs accepted : )
((((((((Bella)))))))) There was no way for you or anyone else who wasn't there at the time to know... and no expectations on my part for anyone in that position to understand.
I thought that I was doing a good, mature thing by maintaining silence when the person I knew as JacMac returned to the board this last time. I was wrong.
I should have confronted the issues immediately and straightforwardly, on the open board. I simply couldn't face the confrontation and all of the backlash which I knew would ensue. Now I can and I know that it's as with anything... anticipation is always so much worse than the actual event.
So no, Bella, I do not feel invalidated by you.... exactly the opposite, in fact.
To me, you are a gentle, kind, caring person and I can surely understand your appreciation for the poster you knew as "authentic". There was a time when I shared your view... until I had cause to disagree with her view of other board members here. Then I realized that no difference of opinion whatsoever was allowed and I found that level of control absolutely unacceptable. For me, it was just a repeat of what I endured from abusers throughout my life and I felt helpless to stop it. If I wouldn't capitulate 100%, I was unacceptable... so I left.
This time, I would not leave... or engage. That was not acceptable either, so this time I was to be punished again. Enough.
I think it takes alot of guts to step forward and say what you've said here, Bella.
Guts and honor and dignity and integrity and all that goes together to make one exceptional human being. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
With love,
Carolyn
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Carolyn:
okay, here's my little story...
I could never play sports involving a ball, for instance... because I'd see that thing zooming toward me, wince, close my eyes, and duck. Didn't matter how much confidence I had in the person throwing the object my way... that was my reflex.
I don't know what it's called, but it really does feel a bit crippling... and I'm still that way to a great extent.
I'd call it, "i'm afraid of that thing flyin at my face at 80 mph and so I'm going to get out of its way!!!
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Thanks to you too Carolyn, for the hug and for all of your patience.
Re messaging: No worries. I just didn't remember ever pm'ing you and was surprised to be blocked. I guess I was wracking my brain trying to remember what I did wrong but then I kind of wondered if maybe that was from a long time ago as a precaution, so I didn't panic. I don't like gossip either but I sure have appreciated the times people have pm'd me and offered support when I felt all alone or confused and I've asked for support by pm too, sometimes, which was usually a big help to me. I do understand where you are coming from though and I certainly respect you choice.
As to tone........I'm sorry my tone sounded angry. Not what I felt posting there. It's not the first time someone has said this too......so seriously I need to figger something better out. I don't like the thoughts of people squirming reading my words. I wish I were better at communicating.
Sorry again Laura and now you too Carolyn.
Sela
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Hi, all:
I'm not holding a grudge. I have just said, No.
I won't be hauling out old posts/threads to prove anything, but bear in mind that noone else can ascribe emotions to me or speak for me.
A long time back, I set a boundary with someone I cannot engage with constructively.
That's it.
Do I need to add that I am not hating anyone? Hope not.
Hops
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Sela,
Thank you... for making such a huge effort to have such constructive dialogue here... and for everything you've said.
After reading back through these posts, I just have to tell you... I talk like you write. I mean, it used to be that I could barely speak to someone I didn't know well, but if I did talk to more familiar people, it would come out like you write. So I can relate.
Especially now, I can relate, because I'm trying so hard to write like I talk, all the formality drops out and it really gets tangled up.
And I am still thinking of some of the idiotic things I've said to you in the past... things I've written when I was in my head and not acknowledging feelings, because of fear... I was determined not to carry about your impressions, because of misunderstandings of my own, thinking that I was hearing anger and ducking. Emotionally ducking.
Just recalled telling you once (not all that long ago) that it didn't bother me a bit when I didn't get a speedy response from you to one post I'd made. You said how if it'd been you, you'd have been watching and waiting for a reply... and me? Oh no, not I... far too mature for all that... sheesh... it is humbling to see what a jerk I can be. Again, I am so sorry... and thank you for your patience with me.
It is wonderful to feel that fear dissolving and to just be an ordinary human being for once.
Laura, I just want to tell you that I think you've set some awesome examples here on the board and I've learned a great deal from you through all this. About that ball flyin into my face fear... lol.. I was hopin for a slightly shorter name for it, but okay : )
Thing is, words flying at me have the same effect as small round objects... but maybe not so much anymore. Thanks.
With love,
Carolyn
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Carolyn: Laura, I just want to tell you that I think you've set some awesome examples here on the board and I've learned a great deal from you through all this. About that ball flyin into my face fear... lol.. I was hopin for a slightly shorter name for it, but okay : )
Thing is, words flying at me have the same effect as small round objects... but maybe not so much anymore. Thanks.
Guess how I knew it was fear? Cause for years I was the child who ran from those balls and ducked and screamed. :)
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Stormchild,
I am not sure why people would want to go back and read anything, when the issue at hand is here on this thread. What are you trying to prove? Whose feelings are you protecting yours and others, or only yours? Personally, my motive is to protect everyone's feelings, not just my own. I have a hard time understanding your motives since you rarely apologize, and seem to want to prove something. Criticizing is not what my friends typically do to me, either, so not sure why this is considering gentle or loving? If there's a need to criticize, OK, but at this point in my journey, I believe I'm doing just fine, thank you very much.
I would like to modify my original request to you. If I address you directly, I think its only fair that you should get the opportunity to respond.
What I hate (I admit it, I hate this behavior, but not you) is when I post a very sensitive, very thought provoking and personal post about something painful that is happening with me, either at home or work, and it seems you minimize the pain by announcing to others (not me, but others) that I need to do something.
You criticize and use me as an example, it seems, and I find this dehumanizing. That is the behavior that needs to stop as I feel harrassed by it.
This dialogue is the exception to the "do not respond to me or talk about me" - what I meant by that is please do not refer to me in an oblique manner, or use me as an example. This feels like a personal attack when you do this. can you understand? do you understand?
bean
Bean, get over yourself. I've been working on this post for the last hour. Sit on it and rotate, I'm not here to meet the schedule demands of abusive twerps.
Now. IF you went back and read those threads, you would see that I do indeed apologize. There on those threads I apologized to both Sela and Hops, in great sincerity, for things that definitely merited an apology on my part.
They then acted in breathtakingly bad faith towards me, in a matter of minutes, and they have done so, where I am concerned, ever since.
It is they, at this point, who are long, long overdue to apologize to me.
But we're not really interested in facts here, are we? We're merely interested in indulging our personal dislikes. Facts might interfere with that. Facts might get in the way.
Now: let's get down to it, shall we.
Here's the problem in a nutshell.
Sela and Hops, and CB as well, all have at least one alienated child.
I, by contrast, AM an alienated child of an abusive mother.
Well... right there, you have the potential for a nice combustible mixture, not to mention a good old fashioned middle school level three-against-one girl gang.
Hops has made much loud lamentation about her lost chick. Much garnering of sympathy, much clucking and fussing. Much theatrical tearing of hair and rending of garments and wondering where it all went so wrong...
Sela has also put in a great deal of time and effort detailing how cruelly she's been treated in the past...
But ah, you'd better not respond by asking, no matter how gently, if there might be anything Hops or Sela did that was dysfunctional, counterproductive, or harmful in their situations. You'd better not respond by wondering if perhaps the child had reason, or thinks they did, to be alienated in whatever way they have been. In Sela's case, you'd better not even speak critically of phoniness, or condescension, or anything else that reveals your ability to recognize abusers in disguise.
God, no. It's all, always, other people's fault. Hops and Sela are wronged innocents unjustly suffering, who never had an unkind thought or did an unkind thing to anyone in all their exalted, saintly life.
What is wrong with this picture?
Look at the viciousness here, and their EXULTATION in it. Look at the orgy of meanness that has been indulged in, here, over the past 24 hours.
This is not the behavior of wronged innocents.
It is the behavior of stone solid 24 carat 99.99% isotope enriched abusers.
I can't come out and say that, though. There's a taboo on that much directness here [unless, of course, it's aimed at the reigning bullies' current preferred target].
Well, the hell with the taboo. I'm going to say it, right here, in front of God and everybody.
My experience of Sela and Hops is that they have both been as dishonest and abusive in their dealings with me, as mean and as vicious to me, as they are capable of being.
My experience.
Starting with those threads that you are too good to read because they're irrelevant. Sure they are, kid. Sure they are. And the check's in the mail, and he'll respect you in the morning. Yep. Sure.
And they cover it up with a phony veneer of gushing goodwill, which fools most of the people most of the time, because most of us still haven't learned that this kind of behavior - this gushing, gooey, phony sweetness - is the bait that abusers use to get us to lower our guard.
I don't hate them any more than I hate wasps, scorpions, or rattlesnakes. But that's pretty much where I have them pegged, at this point. Firmly in the category of Nasty Venomous Creatures.
It sickens me, though, to see people so easily fooled. So easily duped by the gushing and goo, so easily taken in by the sugar coated s--t, as someone brilliantly described it. So utterly oblivious to the viciousness. The meanness. The unholy joy taken in it.
I can't fix that. I didn't cause it, I don't control it, and I cannot cure it.
But oh, honey, I can blog about it.
Not about them. There are millions just like them. About the behaviors. About the disguises. About what makes up the pretense, and what's really likely to be beneath it.
I ought to know, after all. I've been fending it off all my life. The only thing that keeps the abused from becoming an abuser is insight, awareness, and sheer determination not to go there.
I don't always succeed, but I'm way the hell ahead of the competition on this thread.
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Storm:
Bean, get over yourself. I've been working on this post for the last hour. Sit on it and rotate, I'm not here to meet the schedule demands of abusive twerps.
Woah Storm! What is wrong? You sound so angry and hurt here. Is that how you are feeling about all this?
I think Bean has been doing some good work with her therapist to reclaim her dignity and voice, from what I've seen and Hops just is one who speaks her mind and shares her feelings.
Do you also have anything that upsets you about me? I'm leaving myself an open target to take some of the blows for the others here...a sort of "savior" if you will.
It's good for you to get your feelings out and to be heard. So, I'm listening, Stormchild.
~Laura
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I have emailed Dr. G
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Hi everyone,
I'm going to give Sela, Hops, and Bean one more chance to respond to Storm's latest post, and then I'm going to lock this thread. I think everything that needs to be said will then be said, and I would ask that the parties in conflict refrain from contacting each other on the board or by PM--and that they refrain from referring to each other either directly or obliquely. I will also lock Bean's thread "Feeling harrassed or feeling bullied", and cats Paw's thread "On Stormchild--my thoughts", since these threads refer to the ongoing conflict.
Best,
Richard
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I don't need to address Storm, have already placed that boundary. I'll just update my story for people who weren't here then. I will talk about Storm here but then not again. I am sorry for her bitter view of monstrous people everywhere, but I'm sure her life has given her reason to feel that way. I'm just no longer participating as one of the Objects of Explication. Not willingly, anyway.
I had a huge crisis with my D (26) about a year ago. She raged at me and blamed me for all of her suffering. (I divorced, twice, as did her father, and I moved with her, and he was alcoholic, and then he died...while they were in conflict, so she never got to resolve things with him. And, she had made some excruciating choices she was still struggling with.) It was terribly painful to be the target of her pent-up rage. She'd never gotten any help, other than from me. I was exhausted from work stress, frightened, deeply hurt, and full of guilt. We had been too close for too long, and...well, she differentiated herself but good. I worked a lot of it through by posting here.
On the thread Storm posted, I responded to Storm's declaration that she wanted to PM me an "important but upsetting" message by saying, "you're welcome to tell me whatever" (I didn't recognise a pattern then)...and "on the board is fine". (I didn't know why it needed to be a PM...was this a secret?) She PM'd me anyway, and it was a message suggesting that my daughter had been abused and had likely come to me in her childhood wanting to tell me about it over and over but had given up on me because she found I wasn't there for her, wouldn't hear her, wasn't her ally, and I was in denial and had rebuffed her.
I have no idea where Storm got this notion (my D was never abused) except for projection, and for me that's a sad story that belongs to Storm. But her facts were off, her instincts were off, and the message was so predatory and destabilizing that I couldn't read through it at first. I felt ambushed in a private space, as though a bully had dragged me under the stairs for a swift beating. That's how critical or angry PMs strike me, so I don't send them, and if I feel someone has sent me that sort...I would block them too. For me, PM space is only for friendship. Once I eventually did read it, soon afterward I posted on the board to Storm, politely but firmly, that I had come to realize that I was not a person who could dialogue with her effectively. I just wasn't capable. And asked her: "I am asking you, sincerely, to leave me alone." I set a boundary.
I think the problem here was that I broke that boundary on impulse. (Bad ide.) I chose to speak up on Sela's behalf, objecting to Storm's post criticizing Sela's painful past problems (a year and a half before) with her daughter. Well, that was addressing something in Storm's direction, even indirectly. I find that to defy Storm's authoritarian laying down of "what the facts are" is a risky business, and dangerous particularly when you're feeling vulnerable or going through a crisis. There is...always...sooner or later, payback. So much bombast, and so much abuse of her tremendous literacy and intellectual gifts that I think could be one day, by other influences than mine, turned to love.
My D and I are not alienated at all ... haven't been for a good while. If anything, that crisis blew out a lot of dreck and we're cooperating and communicating better than ever. She's been here for a wonderful week, we call and write, we share stories and laughter, she tells me she loves me (and she has never doubted my love for her), and she's planning a dinner with her friends to celebrate her birthday when I'm down there next week. And wants me to make sure to get there in time for a private lunch with her first. I am looking forward to it.
I'm sorry about all this Sturm und Drang, but I guess it was unavoidable. I do feel better that slick pattern of stating as fact what other people's inner reality is, what their feelings are, and what their motives are, has been described by multiple people, so perhaps newbies can take whatever precaution they feel is appropriate for them. I think things would go better for everyone if Storm would stop using others' experience in such a cold way as parables, even though it's sprinkled with "...and of course she has every right to feel that way" and other friendly-sounding reassurances.
Anyone is welcome to head for the stacks and do their own hunt through old threads to see a larger view, in the context of a longer stretch of time. But I don't feel like offering any evidence other than my words here and now. That's because I'm not in a courtroom, I don't fear unkind judgement from others here and I know I am safe in this community. I trust the board.
Thank you, Doc G. I'm sorry you had to be dragged in, but I don't think people complain to you unless they feel well and truly violated, and I think you're judicious in how you manage things.
I'm sorry about the whole mess and my part in triggering it. And one last thing I will also say to Storm: I wish you peace, wholeness, trust, and many many readers, and respect and acknowledgement for all you contribute to knowledge in your blogging. In your own life, I wish you safety and love.
Thanks for listening.
love,
Hops
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Hello everyone,
Thankyou Dr. G for your immediate help! Truly, I did not expect such a quick response and I am really grateful that you interupted whatever you were doing to help here.
My update is similar. My daughter and I are not alienated and actually were never alienated. We did have some difficulties, which we worked through but we never stopped expressing our love for eachother or communicating (and I take the blame for not having the best communication skills, which I have often admitted to her, as well as here on the board). She is away at university now and so I don't see her often and do miss her but we keep in touch, pretty much daily by text messaging and less frequently by phone calls, occasional visits, etc which helps to keep us close and connected. I am also close with my younger daughter who will soon be going off, I expect, to further her education too. I will miss her very much too but I am very glad my girls are going for their dreams and very proud of the wonderful people they are.
Hops, thankyou again for bravely speaking up in my defense. You are such a wonderful friend and I am so very glad to have been blessed with experiencing your grace and kindness. You have braved the Storm, on my behalf and for that....I can't thank you enough. I'm so sorry you've had to endure such wrath.
Bean, thankyou too. I'm sorry for your sadness and disappointment. I feel the same. At any time, Stormy, you could have stepped up to the plate and said you didn't mean to cause hurt and I might have softened. I usually do when people take responsibility for their actions. It's when they refuse to do so that I feel I must protect myself from further....of the same behaviour.
CB, so sorry you got dragged into this. You said it so clearly and accurately:
You take things that are said in a moment of pain and use it to further wound the poster.
I would only add: ....... and then cry abuse!! (when people choose not to tolerate it any more).
I'm sorry for my part in this conflict in that I did yell and call out for help and I know that any conflict upsets some people and probably always will. Thing is......when someone hurts me......I usually give them the benefit of the doubt. When someone hurts me again, I start to lose trust big time. When someone keeps at it and then tries to make out that I'm causing the trouble........I stop interacting. But when someone then waits for a time when it seems I'm not here and then subtley goes for my juglar......I feel compelled to try to put a stop to it (which I knew would likely not work without Dr. G's help....once again, thankyou so much for stepping in so quickly Dr. G!).
Stormy, I'm sorry for the pain you carry and I repeat what I said awhile ago......I will pray that peace replaces whatever it is that resides in your heart. You can have the last word if you want on this thread.
I would ask that the parties in conflict refrain from contacting each other on the board or by PM--and that they refrain from referring to each other either directly or obliquely.
I hope you will do as Dr. G has asked and leave me alone now.
Sela
PS: Carolyn, thankyou too for your sincere post. You have nothing to apologize for and I'm so very glad that the fear is dissolving. (((((((Carolyn))))))) So glad you are here!