Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: MarisaML on April 26, 2006, 10:14:42 AM
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This is a question mostly for those who have an N parent. But I suppose it is a good question for those who have an N spouse too. Do you think that deep down the N in your life really loves you? Just a little? Or do you feel that's really something their not capable of? I know what some of the experts believe. But I just want to know what the families of these N abusers feel.
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Great question. Funny that I believe they do love me deep down. I think that has also stopped me from completely cutting them off.
But when I say deep down, I'm mean really deep! They have so much STUFF it's very hard to hear, feel any genuine love.
These are just my feelings. Of course what is love? Everyday kindness, respect,appreciation, valuing another? No they fail in that department.
If I or someone they new got seriously hurt, killed etc. I believe they would feel.......something. Is that love? I don't know.
I may be confusing love with just showing up in the worst of situations.
Looking forward to others thoughts.
thanks.....seasons
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Hi Marisa,
My NMom almost perfectly fits your "doting N" description.
In her case, I do believe she loves me. A few times, when I've been under extreme emotional stress, I've seen it actually reach her. As though through a deep lake. She has stirred and expressed mother love for a time. A sincere note. A gift.
Most of the time it's been deflected by all the surface NOISE of her N condition. And most of the time she tries to express it by making a great to-do about how much she worries about me (which has the backwards effect of making me have to take care of her for worrying about me, when I could use some taking care of). But I do believe it is there.
I know in more extreme cases it isn't, so I count myself lucky I will have a few genuine moments to remember. They helped me to forgive and find compassion. It was easier than if I were working against a complete granite facade. But she's human.
Hops
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A good friend had me thinking about this again very recently. About a year ago I said ‘No’ most definitely.
Now I see it slightly differently. My (various) parents weren’t/aren’t capable of unselfish consideration and empathy for their children. They simply didn’t have the right tools in their brains. Like asking an elephant to walk a tightrope, it ain’t gonna happen (you'll just annoy the elephant).
It also depends on what you mean by love. I mean: consideration for, extending empathy to, an unselfish *interest* in the other person, a willingness for them to do and be what they want to do and be (not what you want them to do and be). That’s a pretty tall order I think!
I think their ‘love’ for me is like a sentimental fondness for an object (like a doll) that pleases the eye and creates interest for them. Or it’s a sense of duty towards someone they imagine society thinks they have a duty towards (so if I do something ‘wrong’ it causes them great shame). I think the closest thing is saying something to me like "I don't want you to make the mistakes I did" which is kind of directed outwards. Kind of.
I know it’s very little to do with me! I also know they can’t help it, in a way.
I get sad about it sometimes but it’s like being sad about that elephant. I can be sad, but it’s still not going to happen. Less contact helps, detachment and finding like-minded people to talk to helps enormously. 8)
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I think once I stopped trying to do the constant backflips--be the perfect daughter or the perfect wife--to make them notice me and maybe feel something, I realized the only thing I could do to stop the hurt of not feeling loved was to detach and move on.
I could not love them either. I moved my love to my children who were able to return it. I loved my xh and thought he loved me too. He was the one to fool me for a lot of years. My first xh and my parents were open and obvious about their lack of love, but the second xh faked it really well. That one really hurt when I figured it out.
I don't know if they felt anything deep down. I don't know if they are/were capable of feeling anything but their own pain. Would it make me feel any better to think that they did? I don't know that either. I've put it in a place that can't hurt me anymore.
Brigid
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I've been meditating this morning, I did the deep relaxation technique ( I've had a lot of tension which is causing me jaw grinding )
Once I was completely relaxed I had this image of me as a baby, so I imagined being rocked as a baby.
But no matter how many times I put my mother there rocking me, the image wouldn't stay.
So no, I guess I don't believe my mother loved me, and I know she found it hard to nurture. She believed comforting babies was wrong somehow, and told me we were left to cry; she was very proud that her babies never cried after a few weeks old.
When I look at my son I have many feelings, but the strongest one is love. I enjoy seeing his face, hearing what he has to say, helping him work out problems and solutions. It's important enough for me to put aside or work through my own stuff: he is more than me; I sense children need to know that on some level, a sort-of compensation for the responsibility we place on them to fulfill our expectations too.
He was tired this morning ( the Astros went on for 14 innings last night! ) and at one point he groaned and just leaned into me for a hug. It's like I know exactly what he feels and what he needs at that minute. There's a complete acceptance and being in the moment.
I don't think my mother ever saw beyond her own issues to share moments like that with us. She didn't know how to give or receive unconditional love.
My sister says she was closer to her last child, from her second marriage, I never saw enough of them to tell. What I did see didn't look very healthy but maybe I'm biased, or the unpleasantness was directed at me.
Though she left us she always saw the fact we didn't pursue her as a rejection; the truth was we were busy growing up and she didn't know enough about any of us to take part in that.
My mother wasn't N, I suspect she was bipolar but absolutely no insight into mental illness at all. SHe simply didn't believe in it.
In fact she got into spiritualism when I was about 10, and would rather believe in that.
Very sad.
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I've written about my father many times, he's Borderline PD if I have to guess, you're either evrything or nothign to him and I've been out of favour since I started setting my own boundaries a few years ago!
His love is a rather demanding clinging type, though I have had moments of fun and shared connection with him.
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My ex? He is N.
And yes, he loves me very much and there are many connections on many levels.
But the acting out and his inability to be intimate so much of the time, and his anger and denial- made me give up on te marriage.
I just can't spend the rest of my life waiting for him to do the things he needs to do.
Currently he's ill and I'm watching him do just about everything to avoid dealing with it...he just isn't 'equal partner' material especially for me, I have to be really healthy these days to keep myself together!
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NO
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Thanks to all of you for sharing something that is probably hard for you. I apologize if my question has caused you any further pain. I know what a touchy subject it is. Maybe I should tell a little about my parents too. Neither of my parents are N's. My Mom did love us unconditionally. She passed away when I was 17, but I am this person today because of her. She wasn't a perfect parent and sometimes she dealt with us in the wrong ways. But I forgive her for it and I am left knowing that she deeply loved us. My Biological Dad was a pretty good dad to us when my parents were together. He wasn't much of a disciplinarian, but I felt comfortable and loved by him. I was very young when my parents split. 3 I think. So my memories are vague. He gave up on my brothers and I and faded from our lives. He is an alcoholic. My Step Dad came into our lives when I was 3. And he wasn't much like my Dad, he was very strict. He lost his temper a lot with us when we were growing up. There was a lot of emotions and yelling in our home back then. He wasn't an N either though. He did show us love a lot of times. And I still remain in contact with him. And I love him dearly and I know he loves us. See my parents weren't ideal, but they did teach us right from wrong and how to have empathy for others. I feel that I turned out pretty well. But having an N mother-in-law is so not what I've ever known before. I had nothing to compare it too from my early life. And have had a difficult time adjusting to the control and odd actions of my in-laws. My oldest son who is 7 has my personality. And he keeps a distance when around his grandparents and aunt. He doesn't really like them. He seems to have a sixth sense about people's motives and when they are genuine. My four year old on the other hand seems to like them pretty well. My goal is only to be honest and open with the kids. And I will be sure that my kids know when the behavior of some of their family members are wrong. Their Aunt of course will never be a part of our lives again.
I don't know what to think when it comes to my MIL's love for her children. It is really hard to tell. My SIL , on the other hand, seems to have no empathy. I don't feel that she is capable of real love judging from what she did to us. If my MIL does feel love I feel strongly it isn't enough. It may depend on the individuals and whether they have the N disorder or if they have mostly Narcissistic traits mixed in with a few normal human traits. But what love is, to me, is deep empathy and concern for the well being (emotional and physical) of others. The love I feel for my children is indescribeable. I would rather someone rip open my chest and pull out my still beating heart as to take my children away from me. (refering to my story from another thread) I would die for my children. And when they're happy I'm happy. Now most of you who have children probably feel about the same way. And that is love. I admire you all for overcoming what your parents have done to you and becoming better than them. Thanks Marisa.
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I don't know....
My N mother "loves" me, conditionally. If I am doing the right things and saying what she wants and following all of her instructions, then yes, she loves me.
When I am "bad" and don't, then she gets abusive and cold. She will deliberately point out that she isn't saying "I love you" or even "I don't even think I love you anymore!"
At first, I thought that this witholding was just a childish temper tantrum, designed to hurt me and punish me. She will say or do things intentionally to hurt me, (she admitted this in counseling, but later tried to take it back) because she wants to hurt me just as much as she is hurting. Lashing out is a childish, immature way of dealing with feelings, but even being faced with this in counseling, she tries to wiggle out of it by saying "Oh, I didn't MEAN that, I just meant in this one specific instance" and bitterly regrets being in counseling at all for this and other many "slip of the toungues."
This was a shocking realization to me. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it. My mother doesn't truly, selflessly love me. She sees me as a favorite stuffed animal, a comfy chair, something "useful." And when I am no longer useful, I must re-conform to the past "usage" or I am to be tossed aside.
She has always had trouble seperating herself from me and my sister (accomplishments/failures). So maybe it goes back to that old narcissistic standby: People around a narcissist are like appendages to them; arms legs, etc.. Would you ask someone if they loved their leg? What do you think the answer would be?
I think that maybe, deep down she does care about me, but love, well....
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Hiya all
This is a tricky one... I think this probably sums up how my n bio dad feels if I look at it from a projection of feelings point of view....
I got to Chapel Hill and found a mooring, then went to see Roy, who was already there, and my friends Daughter, who was on his boat. Bit sad really as they had lost contact for many years.
I'm not sure who he is on about having lost contact, but you know... it's a bit sad. Not really much love there I think. He believes he loves me and is a great father, but unfortunately his actions don't follow suit. Does he love me? Probably in his way, and his way is the right way of course :lol:
As for Mum... she does love me, but again it's not an unconditional love, but I do believe my stepdad loves me. On my wedding day, when I came downstairs in my dress and walked in front of him, his face glowed with pride and love.... I think these kind of things are the actions of someone who does love you. His reaction showed a much stronger emotion than Mum. I believe real love, real kindness in people can't be pretended and we can tell when it's genuine.
H&H xx
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she admitted this in counseling, but later tried to take it back
this is the worst thing about Nism I think, the constant shifting, thinking you've made progress then as soon as it becomes painful, slipping back into the old patterns. I used to think living with my ex was like walking across a bog or quicksand...uncertain terrain!
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I have always thought my mother loved me, but now I think I ASSIGNED those feelings to her. I gave her maternal qualities in my mind. I can't match my feelings up with anything she has ever done.
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I can't match my feelings up with anything she has ever done.
then you need a great big hug ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
so does she realy for missing out on her fantastic kid!
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You are so sweet, write!
I must say, I learned from the experience of being with her how NOT to be with my children. They are my jewels and my lights. I think that is why this was all so hard to take. I just couldn't imagine how someone could not love her own child (or her grandchildren). Truly, I just can't fathom it.
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no
I do not think they "love" I do not think they even know what it means to love
But i think they "need and that is not really love
i know my N b/f worries about me (when he cannot control certain situations)
I think he does care in his own way needy way
I think we all love differently But truthfully he has never really allowed himself to love
He is too afraid of loss and abandonment
I know he is ill and i have come to except that part
Its not easy to love someone who is mentally sick but i have and I do love him
My parents are both N's my brother is an N and my Grandmother was as well
I believe this illness can be in families My b/f's uncle and his Dad are N's and i think his brother who died young (from AIDS) was also an N
i suffered abuse and more but i do forgive my parents Strange that even when i was a small child I knew they were ""sick"' and i knew i had nothing to do with any of it
(I had insight even when i was very small)
I stay away from my Mom most of the time( much better for me)
and my father passed away five years ago (My mother is much worse now)
As for my b/f i know in time I will leave him I know such a relationship cannot endure i think he knows this too. Its sad.
But I still love him and there are many things about him that i admire
He "tries" to do things for me (Because i have told him i would leave and he knows i will) he has been loyal to me but it is his lack of intimacy that will cause me to leave. It becomes to lonely with him and i know he cannot bring himself to be close to anyone He has tried but I can see that it is very hard (almost painful) for him to show any kind of vulnerable face to me I remember the first time i lay ed in his arms and he said he had "never done this before he was 43!
So can they love?
No I do not believe they can but i think there are moments when they wish they could
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No I do not believe they can but i think there are moments when they wish they could
Blue,
I think you are right about this. I think they are puzzled that others have feeling they can't find in themselves. Pretending an emotion just isn't the same, and I think they know that.
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no way.
my Nmom never could use those four letter words, or show any signs of affection to anyone.
and Nboyfriends never could say those words either. that is a sure sign of their N.
but, hey, at least, they were honest, which is a big improvement from their habitual lying.
:lol:
switzerland
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Hi all:
This is such an interesting and emotional topic imo. I was thinking about it quite a bit yesterday.
I don't know what anyone else feels inside of them. I can't tell what they are able to feel or not able to feel.
I can only tell what I feel.
I did not feel loved by those who acted like N's in my life. I felt possessed and like an object but not loved.
I don't know what they felt about or toward me but what they showed by their behaviour was definitely not love or loving or indicative of love.
That's the best I can do.
:D Sela
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With my N mother I was under the llusion for as long as I could be that we had a real relationship going. At some point it became obvious that we didn't. I don't exactly remember when or how that watershed moment came about.
After that, it was point of no return. We went through the motions for sometime, but all that really felt just so empty. I don't know when the moment of revelation comes. I guess if someone is not there for you in your worst moments.
Marta
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A good test of love?
What’s the most valuable thing you can give someone? Yep, your time.
Well, not just time eh? You can give someone your time if you just want them as your audience!
But if you give them both your time and attention, your interest in them as people in their own right….I think that’s a great expression of love.
My grandfather gave me his time and interest, that’s how come I’m here and not completely nuts. It only takes on person - a teacher, a friend, one compassionate adult - to save a child. That’s love.
Oh Marta. Just seen your post.
I don’t know if you want me to talk to you yet but I want to say I’m sorry – I feel sad – about what you just posted. Like you say - if someone is not there for you in your worst moments – and I agree with that. (((((((((Marta))))))))) I hope you’ll accept these words as having helpful intention, because that’s what I intend. We’re not so different I think.
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Hmmm, I think about this is reference to my kids and their N dad all the time.
I think he thinks he "loves" them, I think he does what he can to "love" but that his definition of love is soooo very damaged.
I remember thinking that when we divorced 10 years ago. That his model for love was soooo screwed up from his childhood, that his only idea of what love is, came from that unbelievable disfunction. In this way, I really can feel compassion for what he may never know in his life. That said, his lack of really knowing love is NOT my problem to fix. It is unfixable by anyone but him, and he may never choose to do this.
My children do love him....but that is tainted by the WAY he "loves". He controls, and they are afraid. For the times they have fun with him (and granted, it is many), they feel a semblance of love the way they know it is. But it is conditional with him...and it may go away as soon as they don't do what he wants them to.
They know from me, that they dont need to choose that for themselves, and they do make comments like, "dad is always angry" or "you know dad" to explain his angry antics.
All in all, I guess I would say, he doesn't know how to love, or what it really IS or feels like. He only knows this ego level of "power" and has mistaken that for love.
My sister and I were talking about this the other day, that the one thing we will be eternally grateful to our parents for: IS that they taught us how to love.....
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No, I don't; I don't think they're capable of it. Everything that is not-N is just a thing, to an N. All of their relationships are I-It.
[Someone upthread asked if we love our own legs... well, yeah... I certainly love mine. They've lifted me up time and again, carried me safely all over the world, driven my cars, danced, jumped for joy, climbed mountains, walked quiet beaches, rushed me into the arms of people I've loved.
Yes, I love them dearly, and I'm grateful to them. My life would have been totally different if they hadn't been part of it, part of me, or if they had worked differently [or not at all] for any reason. I know it, and I thank them.]
That was me.
I think you got what I was trying to say - I mean that a narcissist doesn't generally consider "legs or arms" feelings, whether they don't want to do what it is you are asking, in other words, they don't separate themself from a body part... they don't see a difference in "You" and your "you-ness" and a hand or leg. This is how my mother sees me - and how many narcissists view those around them - they are a part of themselves and therefore should act exactly as the brain (the narcissist) decrees. You don't "love" your hand because it is such a wonderful, great person and is enriching your life out of it's love for you - it is a tool, a body part. A person in a narcissist's life that breaks with the role assigned to it by the narcissist is like your hand suddenly saying "You know what? I'm tired of doing all of this crap and never getting any thanks or affection or anything so I'm outta here..." and taking off... (like the Evil Dead movie!) So no wonder they react with such anger and shock when we voice our dissatisfaction!
A normal person appreiciates their strong legs, their hands that perform numerous tasks... a narcissist just expects them to do what they have always done and never appreiciates or even acknowledges the efforts...
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Sela:
Hi all:
This is such an interesting and emotional topic imo. I was thinking about it quite a bit yesterday.
I don't know what anyone else feels inside of them. I can't tell what they are able to feel or not able to feel.
I can only tell what I feel.
I did not feel loved by those who acted like N's in my life. I felt possessed and like an object but not loved.
I don't know what they felt about or toward me but what they showed by their behaviour was definitely not love or loving or indicative of love.
That's the best I can do.
((((Sela))))))
My Story: I "felt" loved by Ns. Eventually, when I had the courage to follow a relationship to the natural conclusion, the illusions were shattered. It was the fire of my love that kept kindling and rekindling their existence and their emotions.
Then again, when others have truly loved me, I did not hear them; not let them into my life; I only heard the wolves; that was the familiar call. Eventually someone did knock on the door long enough, years in act, and I did open up. That made all the difference. A watershed moment in my life.
Only you can decide which is the case for you.
I will say this. I have tried and tried and tried, so very hard to talk to you, but my words just don't seem to get through to you. I try so hard because you remind me of my elder sister, the one who broke all ties with me several years ago. Because you have given me so much, because you are much, much nicer, so much kinder than my sister had in her to ever be.
Take care Sela. I have been reading your other posts for a while, but there was something about the tone of this post that I had to respond to. As though I can finally see feelings breaking through your voice.
My advice: same as always. Trust in Mother Nature and small, beautiful things you can hold in the palm of your hands without crushing. You have a lot of beauty and dignity in you Sela; so its about time to open the floodgates and let it all out. :)
Lots of Love, Marta
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Dear (((((((((Marta))))))))):
I don't know but it sure seems/looks like you've decided that Portia is some kind of monster and I'm some sort of saint??? Neither idea is anywhere near accurate, imo.
If you have specifically posted and referred to me here, over and over, trying to talk to me.....I have missed it. I must be dense because I do not recall that at all lately. :?
As though I can finally see feelings breaking through your voice.
I can't see your feelings. Sorry.
Can/will you finish this sentence for me please Marta?
I feel ....................................................
(as much as you want to share).
I'm very curious to know more about your elder sister, if you feel like sharing that too.
My advice: same as always. Trust in Mother Nature and small, beautiful things you can hold in the palm of your hands without crushing.
I like that. It's very poetic. Reminds me of lady bugs and wee butterflies and rose petals and buttercups and tiny pieces of quartz. Small, natural, lovely things. Yes. I can trust to find them over and over. I can rely on finding them. I will be careful not to crush them and rejoice in those that cannot be crushed (like the quartz). :D :D
My advice: Please read the same tone (within reason) into all posts here on this board. We are all the same. We are all similar. There are no enemies here, is what I'm trying to say.
:D Sela
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Hi all:
This is such an interesting and emotional topic imo. I was thinking about it quite a bit yesterday.
I don't know what anyone else feels inside of them. I can't tell what they are able to feel or not able to feel.
I can only tell what I feel.
I did not feel loved by those who acted like N's in my life. I felt possessed and like an object but not loved.
I don't know what they felt about or toward me but what they showed by their behaviour was definitely not love or loving or indicative of love.
That's the best I can do.
:D Sela
You're exactly right that no one can ever know what another truly feels in their hearts. I suppose it's that very idea that got me on this topic. There are lots of articles and books written about N's. And from the ones I've read they all seem to say that N's can't feel love. That's why I thought that maybe the family members of N's would have a special insight into that. It is very sad that there are so many people out there who are that damaged. 'Love' is such a very basic emotion. But yet there are people who have impaired emotions. And then there is an even larger group of people who are affected by these N's. People that do feel love and can't understand those who don't. And there is nothing sadder (in my mind) than a child who isn't loved by his/her parents. Thanks to all of you for opening up in this thread. And what I find is very remarkable is that the people on this board are so kind and caring. You have found love after all.