Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: pennyplant on May 31, 2006, 11:33:32 AM
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I like mudpuppy's fish story very much. It is one of the two most beautiful extended metaphors I have ever read in my life--the other one was also a "fish story," though that one was not funny like yours, mud. I have not yet learned how to write extended metaphors myself, but you HAVE inspired me to at least try my hand at starting a thread. First time ever since I got here in February or March.
What inspired me is the idea of being one of those creatures of the pond world who mostly lives at the edges. Sometimes getting wet when I preferred to be dry, sometimes getting pulled under when I preferred to wade in slowly, sometimes wandering around among the reeds when I preferred to be in there splashing with the rest. Probably the question of my entire life has been why is it always like that? Well, probably the real question is, what am I worth when I'm an outsider so much of the time? Being an outsider is an enduring pattern throughout much of my life. Being in the right place at the right time and of the right mindset in order to be "in" is the exception for me, though being "in" has occurred often enough for me to know I've got it in me. I just don't seem to understand how to tap into it.
About the title of this thread--it's from one of my little life stories. In kindergarten, I was sitting and painting at one of the work tables we had. Painting was one of my favorite kindergarten activities. I was listening to some of the kids from my street who were talking about how much fun they had had at Paul's birthday party. I felt left out of course and wondered why I hadn't been invited. Later on Paul said to me that he was sorry I couldn't come. His mother said he could only invite five kids and I was number six. Actually I think now that it was a pretty thoughtful thing for a little boy in kindergarten to have said. It must have been obvious in some way that I felt left out.
Much later on, age ten I think, something similar happened again. The most popular girl in our class was having her birthday party. She was a friend of a friend so we knew each other alright. Her mother had also said she could only have five girls at her party and I was number six. I must have actually asked if I couldn't come anyway because she did go and ask her mother for one more guest and the answer was yes and I did go to the party. Amazing to me now that I had the sense of self worth or whatever to sort of demand that I be invited! So unlike me nowadays.
So, now when I'm feeling peripheral, I will say to my husband, I must be number six. He totally gets it because he was always the new kid in school and never got invited period.
So, I'm on this board now and still completely confused about the value of my role here. Once I decided to register, I think I post an average of two or three times a day, something like that. For the times I'm online, well it's almost every hour of the clock except maybe 1 am. Never started a thread until today, have not participated in any discussion that had certain emotions contained within it. Just words on a computer screen, but words come from emotion and words generate emotion, so it's still important, still real. Just a different kind of real.
PMs seem to be some kind of a measure of worth or connectedness. I have PMed a few times. Enough to know that I wish I had a better knack for it. If only I could master the art of the cyber-hug, I bet the PMs would go better! In 3-D life I have actually learned that I am a hugger! What a surprise that was to learn. I don't hug everybody all the time. But when it seems natural, I hug. And I like it. And some people like to hug me. The very first PM I got here was in response to a story I posted about two girls who tormented me in 9th grade. In the PM I was asked for a (((hug))). It actually startled me. In fact, I declined, in what I hope was a kind way. I do believe now that I handled it the right way as things have developed. For I might have got in over my head with that particular situation.
So far I have learned enough in this place to be able to formulate real questions for myself. Questions I can really work on. Also, I am working on boosting my level of bravery. By that I mean, when the words of some people disturb me or confuse me or make me doubt my perceptions, now I can start to figure out what is going on under my skin, in me, that has struck such a chord. Always before, even when I recognized that my feelings were growing out of my experience just as much as growing from what the other person said or did, still I would have this anger and resentment--why did they have to do it the WAY they did it? Was it necessary to be cruel? I would be afraid. Now I'm beginning to think differently. The WAY they did it is just their way. If that is ALWAYS their way, then I am more than free to add that person to my "Toxicity" list and move on from there. It doesn't mean I have to add another flaw to my "What is So Wrong With Pennyplant That She Can't Get Along With Others" list. I do get along with many people. Just not all.
What is my purpose with this particular thread? I want to learn what my natural approach to being in a group is. I want to learn what my role here is. I want to learn what my role here means.
I will start with something that I do know about myself. It is something that comes up frequently here. Thread ownership. I started this thread. As soon as I hit post, it will no longer belong to only me. It will belong to everybody here. That is a way of operating that actually works for me in my life. I enjoy seeing what develops naturally. This thread has a theme, "Being Peripheral" but it is free to wander among your thoughts and inspire related ideas. If it somehow manages to anger people eventually--maybe I will lock it. There is enough anger floating around in the world, and I have enough trouble directing my own anger, that I do not want that to become an idea that takes over this thread. If it doesn't generate much interest, then I will learn more about being peripheral. I will be especially excited, though, if others decide to share their own "number six" stories.
So, I will try this and see what happens.
Pennyplant
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Hi PP,
Have to be quick (I'll come back later) but this is wonderful. So glad for you that you did this!
I grew up on the outside with my heart nearly snapping from loneliness. For unfathomable reasons, in college I became loved and had my first friends. But I never have forgotten. Even when I wedge myself into the middle of things, jaws a-flapping, I never, ever forget how that was, for all those formative years.
I think I waded right in because I had been so lonely for so many years that I grew used to it. And could carry that with me as a permeable boundary. Maybe, that was the gift of the past.
The other thing is, having suffered such loneliness did break my heart, and when it healed, I felt more as though I could recognize the broken or bruised heart in everyone else, even my tormentors. So...we were all the same. And now, most people in my life show no interest in hurting me at all. I don't seem to be attracting that as much (save the occasional N, but that's a habit I think I've just about broken).
Last, gotta work...I want to say to you that thoughtful people who are positioned on the edge of the pond show us all that there is a shape to things. There are different angles of light from the edge. You see a different reflection in the water when you're not in the center wrestling gators or mudpuppies.
When the splashers get tired enough to pause on the bank for a while, you can teach them what you've seen. It's invaluable.
It does take all of us.
love,
Hops
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Thank you, Hops :D .
My first cyberhug:
(((Hops)))
PP
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Pennyplant,
I was very touched by your story. There have been times in my life when I have felt very much the outsider--wanting so desperately to be included. I think quite often I was number six also. My exh used to tell me that people viewed me as a b**ch because I was not as gregarious or fun as he. I think I mainly just hung in the background while he sucked all the air out of the space we were in. I find now that without him around, I have started to come out of the protective shell I created to shield myself from . . . hmmm, not sure what, exactly. Maybe the fear of rejection. Maybe the fear of just being ignored or thought irrelevant.
I sit on the edge of the pond, watching the turtles swim and dive and wishing I was braver and could sustain the cold water for longer periods of time without needing to scurry back to the warmth of the sunny shore. Maybe just hide out in the reeds for awhile waiting for the water to warm up.
Please start more threads--you're good at it.
((((((((pennyplant))))))))))))
Brigid
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Maybe just hide out in the reeds for awhile waiting for the water to warm up.
Brave, wise Brigid.
I think you're wonderful just as you are, and knowing you're around is a big reason this loudmouth feels safe here.
You built this space for me. You and others whose kindness never wavered. You who have no jagged beaks.
I hopped in the pond because your presence here, whether visible in the moment or not, told me this was a safe place for many species.
((((Brigid)))))
Hops
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It is just in recent years I have understoon why I was the way I was during my childhood. For most of my life I have believed that I was a very shy child. It was like I was afraid of my own shadow and I didn't talk much with new people until I kind of sussed them out and felt more comfortable with them. I was never in the inner circle but rather on the outside looking in. Making friends was very difficult.
It was about 10 years ago that it began to dawn on me what happened. I didn't know about NPD at the time. I was at my cousin's house for Thanksgiving. The family, including my n-mother were all sitting around the table telling stories about the past. I told a story too. I felt comfortable doing so. I had been away from my family enough to feel comfortable talking with a group of people. When I finished my story there was a silence. Then my mother said, "That is not what happened." She didn't explain herself. When I protested that my story was true her face got red and she looked daggers at me and repeated that that was not what happened. I was dumbstruck.
Later I began to remember what it was like when I was a child and said anything in front of family. It became clear to me that I was always present at family functions but I didn't dare say much because of her put-downs. I was actually always on the outside looking in. Relatives didn't even talk to me. I don't remember ever having a conversation with any of them. I would go play by myself and be called to dinner. I would sit there with the rest of them listening to their conversations but I didn't take part--wasn't included.
I guess I should explain that I was an only child and my cousins were all at least 12 years older than I.
I still sit on the sidelines of forums and don't post much. I do have a great social life now that I enjoy very much.
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Hi PP, Wow what a wonderful thread .As a child I had my twin brother but there were times that had to do with girlfriends at school.
I was invited to party's and sometimes connected with the others and sometimes not.As many young girls remember there is always a very popular girl at our school .She reined supreme.Lonely ness came not because there were not people around but because
family was in the grip of N father.I remember about 11 or 12 I took a book out of the library over and over.The name of the book
was "Nobody's Girl" .I would leave it around the house hoping someone would see it and know how I felt,but that did not happen.
Thank you PP for your insight and the just right way you express you.
Love and Light
Moon
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I want to say to you that thoughtful people who are positioned on the edge of the pond show us all that there is a shape to things. There are different angles of light from the edge. You see a different reflection in the water when you're not in the center wrestling gators or mudpuppies.
When the splashers get tired enough to pause on the bank for a while, you can teach them what you've seen. It's invaluable.
It does take all of us.
I have a few minutes before heading back to work so I can make some responses. Hops this image just filled my heart. Showing us there is a shape to things. Different angles of light, different reflections. It feels good to have something I can actually picture in my mind. When the splashers get tired--one of the things about being on the edges is that connections with other people are sometimes singular or of short duration. It can be lonely. When you talked about carrying your loneliness inside like a permeable boundary, well it makes loneliness sound like a comfort. It has value. I like that idea. When I read your post I felt like jumping in the air (where is the smiley with wings? :) )
My exh used to tell me that people viewed me as a b**ch because I was not as gregarious or fun as he. I think I mainly just hung in the background while he sucked all the air out of the space we were in. I find now that without him around, I have started to come out of the protective shell I created to shield myself from . . . hmmm, not sure what, exactly. Maybe the fear of rejection. Maybe the fear of just being ignored or thought irrelevant.
I sit on the edge of the pond, watching the turtles swim and dive and wishing I was braver and could sustain the cold water for longer periods of time without needing to scurry back to the warmth of the sunny shore. Maybe just hide out in the reeds for awhile waiting for the water to warm up.
Hi Brigid,
The comparison thing. I don't know if it just the way my mind works, or if it is a by-product of voicelessness. Always, I check out how I measure up to others. In every possible way. When our kids were small, I was the b---- compared to my easy-going husband. That's a long, long story for maybe another time. But it was a big issue for us for a long time. I believed he was purposely being "nice" as something of a setup or in order to make me the mean one. Many, many years later he admitted that something like that was indeed at work. He suffers from voicelessness too and may have picked up that "nice dad, mean mom" from his own parents. We definitely don't operate like that now. Anyway, just one example of always comparing myself and mostly coming up short. And therefore, feeling like I didn't really DESERVE to be included. Who would want ME anyway?
When you talked about needing to get out of the cold to warm up--sometimes I wonder if I really WANT to be "in" all the time. Maybe it is truly part of my nature to be where I am most of the time. Maybe I have innocently absorbed the dominant values of popularity and groupiness. I believe that I will eventually see it just that way. That I am where I not only need to be, but want to be.
Jona22 and Moon-- I have to get to work now. I will respond to your posts tonight.
Pennyplant
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Fantastic first try Penny!
Good for you for swimming out of the reeds! I love your voice and really relate to so much of what you wrote. I've been rather focussed, lately and not posting on many threads. I don't start many threads either. For me.....it is my own self-talk/inner thinking that influences that. What do I really want to say or know? Will anyone else be interested? Sometimes, I'd just rather read and others....post. One of my first tries.......I started as "annonymous". Too chicken to use my real guest name, even. The "anything" thread. I guess it worked out ok. I was afraid people would think it was silly or a waste of time or not be interested. Negative self-talk galore there eh?
I'm glad you took the plunge and braved starting this thread and I truly thankyou for what you said about once you hit "Post". I like it when threads are allowed to go where they might.....where people can just discuss stuff. I also understand that sometimes, a person has a real need for support or a problem they really would like to discuss, and in that case, I might feel rude if I end up highjacking the thread, or contribute stuff to it, that has nothing to do with the original title/topic.....as if I have no consideration for the original thread starter. Ofcourse, that isn't true. I do consider that person, but I don't always remember to say so or appologise. :oops: :oops:
Your story reminded me of my kindergarten experience. I had to go to school that was not my regular school, because my regular school, where the friends I played with near my house went, did not have kindergarten. So my friends, must have been younger or older than I. Heehee. Little kindergarten friends. My first friendships. I remember those. (little red heart icon please).
Anyhow.....ya........I didn't know a soul and felt totally excluded. I heard discussions, similar to what you described, about people's birthday parties, to which I had not been invited, nor did there seem like there would be a chance of that. I was quiet and shy. I wanted to please the teacher but she seemed uninterested in me compared to the others. At that time, we kids were given a blanket and told to have a nap, each day, for however long?? I didn't nap at home and thought it was such a babyish thing but I complied....tried......couldn't sleep......would be corrected for it. I felt very much alone in kindergarten and actually......didn't like it at all. I felt like the other kids knew eachother and just didn't notice me, except for when the teacher was correcting me, and I thought the teacher.....didn't like me.
But I did like painting. I did like standing in front of that little easel and splashing my feelings there with paint. I remember doing that. And I remember the teacher........coming to look..........and making corrections.....not asking but telling me what the painting looked like....which was completely NOT what it was about. I remember smiling and pretending she was right, hoping that would please her and I remember it didn't. She went on to make corrections.......tell me how I could improve it.......how her choice of colours was not the same as mine. "Not fair!", I thought. "They're my feelings."
But I smiled and listened and tried to let her see that I agreed with her. It didn't matter.
Hahahaha! I've changed a lot since kindergarten, I think. But I guess I haven't really felttt......for little me, back then. Forgot all about it. Buried it. Didn't even realise that part of my self-doubt might have been generated by her behaviour??
So, I have to thank you for bringing this up, since it's helped me to see that somehow.....I've found a way to use my voice, since then, regardless of having self-doubt imposed by being centred out as different, having my "work" put down, and not being welcomed and encouraged to be part of the group.
I left that school and went to my regular school the next year, thank God, and things went along much better.
In 3-D life I have actually learned that I am a hugger!
Me too, although I'm very careful about whom I hug. But I'm a touchy-feely person, as Archie Bunker would put it, and it's helped me to learn this too.
when the words of some people disturb me or confuse me or make me doubt my perceptions, now I can start to figure out what is going on under my skin, in me, that has struck such a chord.
Thankyou for this wise gift, Penny. This is a biggie, I think. And congratulations! I need to do more of that, I think.
Your post was very touching and you strike me as really wanting self-awareness. Me too. Sometimes I think I'm out to lunch. :roll:
And then people like you come along and help restore my faith in myself (on edit: that I can keep learning and changing). I'm glad you're here. (((Penny)))
:D Sela
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PennyPlant,
Your post is so beautiful and meaningful. Thankyou for sharing and inviting us to wander among our thoughs (to paraphrase) on your thread. I can relate to so much that you and others posted here. I kept reading and saying, "wow! ...wow! Wow again, I can relate to this!"
I have always felt peripheral. I labled myself as "shy" because I felt I couldn't tell stories or jokes, or participate equally in a conversation. Like Jona22, my early experiences (and even recently, now that I think of it) trying to hold my own in a conversation with my Nmom, resulted in "No, that's not how that happened", or "No, that's a silly idea" or some such thing.
PennyPlant, the following really struck a cord in me; "...sometimes wandering around among the reeds when I preferred to be in there splashing with the rest. Probably the question of my entire life has been why is it always like that? Well, probably the real question is, what am I worth when I'm an outsider so much of the time?"
I don't know you, but just from reading your posts in the last couple weeks, I think you are worth a lot. You are priceless. But I think I can relate to why you ask yourself that.
I've never been able to figure out why it seems I have always been shy, or thought I was shy. I really don't know. But I do remember crying to my mom one day afterschool, probably 4th or 5th grade. I told her I didn't have any friends and I didn't know why. Instead of talking to me about my feelings, how I might go about communicating with potential friends, etc., she actually looked HAPPY and talked about herself, and how she had no friends when she was my age, we must be special people, at least she and I could be best friends, etc. It was one of the few times she seemed to approve of me. She was so happy that I seemed just like her, and she rewarded me for being peripheral and lonely.
Did this kind of interaction ever happen to you or anyone else here? Where do all of these feelings of shyness, loneliness, unworthiness come from for you?
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IamNew,
Where do all of these feelings of shyness, loneliness, unworthiness come from for you?
For me, I would say mostly from an n father who criticized and corrected virtually everything I did. I never remember being praised for having done the least little thing well or even above average. I believe that is why, as a child, I never stuck with any activity for very long. I think I kept looking for something that would garner me some positive attention, but that was never to be.
To this day, I have a difficult time accepting or believing compliments. I have tried to retrain myself to be more graceful and polite when a compliment is given, but I still struggle with believing it is given in earnest.
Brigid
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For most of my life I have believed that I was a very shy child. It was like I was afraid of my own shadow and I didn't talk much with new people until I kind of sussed them out and felt more comfortable with them. I was never in the inner circle but rather on the outside looking in. Making friends was very difficult.
.......
Later I began to remember what it was like when I was a child and said anything in front of family. It became clear to me that I was always present at family functions but I didn't dare say much because of her put-downs. I was actually always on the outside looking in. Relatives didn't even talk to me. I don't remember ever having a conversation with any of them. I would go play by myself and be called to dinner. I would sit there with the rest of them listening to their conversations but I didn't take part--wasn't included.
Hi Jona22,
Maybe I should mention that I tend to just quote small parts of what people post because I figure that really the whole post stands on its own and can be read over and over as people wish. Picking out a piece of it sort of gives me a jumping-off point for responding.
About shyness--have you ever heard of "slow-to-warm"? I used to read about that when my oldest son was small because he had problems in groups. It was like he felt on display or so very self-conscious. I read up trying to find a category for him in hopes that I could find a way to change that about him. Oh, I have learned so much since then. Anyway, slow-to-warm has stuck in my mind since then. "Sussed them out" seems a little like that. How I wish that adults could give kids more credit and maybe even more space so they can teach themselves to be comfortable with others. But that would require a selflessness or sensitivity that many people, let alone Ns, don't possess.
Put-downs from your own family. The love of your own family is so basic a need. A long time ago I decided to sort of give myself a break about how hard it was sometimes to fit in. Because I lacked the basics--the obvious love of my own family. It was so hands-off in my house. If no one at your house hugs you or says nice things to you, well it will feel odd out there in the world. Once I put that together, I knew I needed to go back and get really basic. Didn't really know how that would happen. But I also think it really can't be skipped, that basic love and acceptance. I give you much credit, Jona, for stopping your voice for a time, because it was a way of stopping put-downs. You thought enough of your own value to not want that treatment.... you have a social life now and that shows you have it in you.
Also, as a side-note, thanks for coming back here, Jona. I too thought of really leaving for awhile but hovered around and thought some more and decided to stay. It's a work in progress.
Lonely ness came not because there were not people around but because
family was in the grip of N father.I remember about 11 or 12 I took a book out of the library over and over.The name of the book
was "Nobody's Girl" .I would leave it around the house hoping someone would see it and know how I felt,but that did not happen.
Oh my, Moon. Nobody's Girl. If only N-father had cared enough to just look for a moment and wonder, why does she keep getting that book? What is it about? "Nobody's girl? Why, you're my girl, Moon," that's what he should have felt and said. It's so simple isn't it? This is what I mean about the basics that each child needs growing up. A child can manage in life if they have value to the people who should care, the people at home.
I know you gave that to your daughters. I bet you found it to be a pleasure!
Pennyplant
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One of my first tries.......I started as "annonymous". Too chicken to use my real guest name, even. The "anything" thread. I guess it worked out ok. I was afraid people would think it was silly or a waste of time or not be interested. Negative self-talk galore there eh?
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I felt very much alone in kindergarten and actually......didn't like it at all. I felt like the other kids knew eachother and just didn't notice me, except for when the teacher was correcting me, and I thought the teacher.....didn't like me.
But I did like painting. I did like standing in front of that little easel and splashing my feelings there with paint. I remember doing that. And I remember the teacher........coming to look..........and making corrections.....not asking but telling me what the painting looked like....which was completely NOT what it was about. I remember smiling and pretending she was right, hoping that would please her and I remember it didn't. She went on to make corrections.......tell me how I could improve it.......how her choice of colours was not the same as mine. "Not fair!", I thought. "They're my feelings."
........................
you strike me as really wanting self-awareness. Me too. Sometimes I think I'm out to lunch. :roll:
Hi Sela,
Yes, I would say the "Anything" thread was and is a huge success. Is it up to 45 pages now?!? As Napoleon Dynamite would say, "Yessssssss!"
Never underestimate the power of kindergarten! Everything about painting was exciting--the easel, the brushes, the smell of the paint, getting to wear a smock, the beauty of the colors. I love how you knew that you were painting your feelings. And how terrible to have a teacher who thought it was her job to squash that idea. Teachers are supposed to feed passion not kill it.
Years ago my son brought home a painting from first grade that took my breath away. It was red, blue and yellow flowers, like giant daisies. What was so astonishing about it was the balance he put into it. I had never seen a painting by a six-year-old that had such balance to it, proportionwise, colorwise, flowers to background. I hung it up on our kitchen door and every single person who came into the kitchen commented on that painting. That is when I knew for sure he was an artist. Thank God, no teacher ever squashed that in him. I did a LOT of things wrong with him, but that one I got right.
Self-awareness--I guess I feel like any other way to live would be very boring. I am sometimes torn between too much "correction" and real growth. I guess that's what I'm after--growth. In hopes that it will feel better and better to be alive.
I noticed on another thread how you figured out the difference between (and relationship of) truth and trust. To me, that kind of learning and figuring out seems like growth. That was very cool.
Thank you for the compliments, too, Sela. Praise is something else I want to learn how to handle gracefully. The first compliment I ever got from my mother happened when I was 24. I was a little embarrassed because my youngest son had that newborn rash all over his face for a few weeks and didn't look so good with his fair skin all blotchy. I said it was too bad he was so white like me. My mother said, "Oh, when you were a baby I thought you looked like an angel because you were white like the angels painted on the walls at church." First compliment ever. I never knew she thought anything positive about my looks.
Oh, we really do need a smiley with wings!
PP
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I've never been able to figure out why it seems I have always been shy, or thought I was shy. I really don't know. But I do remember crying to my mom one day afterschool, probably 4th or 5th grade. I told her I didn't have any friends and I didn't know why. Instead of talking to me about my feelings, how I might go about communicating with potential friends, etc., she actually looked HAPPY and talked about herself, and how she had no friends when she was my age, we must be special people, at least she and I could be best friends, etc. It was one of the few times she seemed to approve of me. She was so happy that I seemed just like her, and she rewarded me for being peripheral and lonely.
Did this kind of interaction ever happen to you or anyone else here? Where do all of these feelings of shyness, loneliness, unworthiness come from for you?
Hi IamNewtoMe,
I got two opposite feelings in me when you shared this part of your story. You see, my mother always made me feel ashamed for not being popular or having boyfriends (at a fairly young age!) as was true for her when she was a girl. Which just made me feel more odd and lonely. And it wasn't like she shared social skills with me. She really didn't have any either, but instead happened to be lucky that she was a very pretty little girl who had an average personality in the 50s. Kids just gravitated to her and she didn't really have to do any work at all. She giggled a lot and was cute and didn't over-think so she could fit in easily as long as she was welcomed, which she was. Guess she thought it would happen like magic for me too. Anyway, I guess I might have felt less weird as a child if my mother had said we had something that big in common.
BUT! It is so not a good thing that she put you into her world like that. So, the other feeling I got was a sort of hopeless, trapped feeling. "So, this is how I am. I'll never have any friends." And I have experienced something like that as well, from my father. He was kind of an oddball (perhaps Asperger's Syndrome) and while he had friends, he knew nothing of chit chat, easy-going banter, easy-going anything really. And one day, when I was about 14 (the year my parents divorced and two former friends tormented me in school) he said, "I'm afraid you are going to turn out like me, and always have trouble making friends." Oh God, I did not want to have that idea of myself! And it sure seemed like a good possibility that he might be right, since at the time my social life was horrendous. It made me feel terrible.
Well, maybe these examples from my past are coloring my reaction to your story. It seems like if you could share your own reaction to your mother's words, if you want, that might help me get past my own bias here and learn something new. I'm definitely biased here. Wow, it is no wonder I had trouble forming up a response at first!
Pennyplant
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I have been feeling very warm since starting this thread and hearing these responses. I thought maybe I would worry about it and gage my self-worth on something or other. But it feels good to have tried this.
Thank you for the hugs and compliments!
(((Hops, Brigid, Jona22, Moon, Sela, IamNewtoMe, and Mud for the inspiration)))
PP
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I’m sitting here having read all replies and I’m thinking do I have anything to say? This is such a warm, thoughtful, helpful, caring, inclusive, careful, respectful thread….that maybe if I post I’ll muck it up, I’ll hurt it? Then I thought, that’s silly P. Then I thought……I’m too peripheral, too way out there, I can’t join this. !
PennyPlant,
what a great thread. Thank you for starting it and taking great care with your replies too. Such care!
Am I number six? No, probably not on the list. Not being morose here but factual: I was an outsider to the extent that I literally didn’t understand what was going in groups, the dynamics even at primary school were alien to me. Only recently have I learned how to behave in groups and sometimes it’s still tricky for me. Is that wrong? Maybe not. I learned to watch and listen and wonder if I wanted to be in any group. This (here) is the only group I’ve belonged to and liked.
I can write alone here and that suits me. People can comment, disagree with me, connect with me and that’s great, because it’s once removed, it’s not here and now. I can walk away, reflect, control my input from a distance. It’s probably about control? And intimacy?
PennyPlant, I can’t help but ask questions and look at the person who starts a thread, I always imagine there’s a question, a problem, a confusion to be addressed and maybe that upsets people, me doing that? I don’t know. It’s part of who I am; I get bored with me and get more interested in others, and so:
So, I'm on this board now and still completely confused about the value of my role here.
The value of your role - to you? or to the board (group)? Or to individuals? Or is this something that’s deeper….the meaning of life kind of thing? (Sorry, I’m trying to dig about 20 feet down and you haven’t even replied yet!). This sentence struck me as important to you but I could be wrong. Hope it’s okay with you?
PS Did you ever see the tv series The Prisoner? Maybe not, it was British, 1960s. The main character was Number Six. His enduring line was: "I am not a number, I am a free man!" 8)
Edit in
Now I feel as though I’ve done this thread a disservice by not telling a story, so I’ll try and tell one. Remembering school days. Just realised I thought it was kind that my father collected me at lunchtimes (age 5) to buy me sweets and take me for walks around the streets; but now I thought, that was for his benefit, not mine, maybe that’s why I didn’t have friends? Maybe not. Trying to remember friends at school. First and second schools, no idea. Third primary school, age about 9. Had a friend there, don’t know her name. I gave her a shoulder ride and she fell off and broke her front adult tooth and I still feel bad about it. Think of good times there…telling stories at playtime, a group of girls would sit and listen to me tell stories that I made up. What were they about I wonder? Fourth primary school, I remember the female cliques and being wary of them. Can’t remember any friends there. Secondary school for two years and met my best friend who was an outsider taunted by the others. Maybe I felt a kinship? We became very close and eventually accepted by the others. Interesting. I then moved to an isolated unhealthy community and went to a rubbish school so I joined a small group of drop-outs; I guess we were the ‘peripheral group’ :D.
Whatever place (or role?) we occupy, or imagine we occupy, I suppose the reality is that we’re never the only ones in that position, we’re not alone, it just feels that way sometimes.
Now I’ve read your post again PP, what is your role here? Whatever you want to make it I guess. How about ‘starter of thoughtful and helpful threads’? What’s my role? Have I got a role as such or do I just type and post and see what folks think, probably, yes…I don’t see it as a role, although sometimes I do see myself taking responsibility that isn’t mine, repeating old patterns, but a role? I’m not sure I want a defined role even in my head, things change, thank goodness.
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Hoppy,
I didn't mean to ignore your very sweet response to me (especially after saying that I am trying to get better about accepting compliments :oops:).
You have such a gift for always knowing the right thing to say. I will simply say Thank You.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Hi Pennyplant,
When it seems natural, I hug.
Me, too. Such a gift to give and receive, aren't they? ((((((((Pennyplant)))))))
Your original post here was so touching; both your own Six stories and your genuine interest in everyone else's Sixes...hadn't given much thought to the qualities that make a good thread-starter, but yours (Congrats for boldness!) couldn't be more compelling, imho. For what it's worth, I would really like to know what you think your role here is? Do you have pictures of that?
One little picture: you were the very first person to greet me here. I really appreciated that, Pennyplant, and always look forward to reading your posts. You 'speak' here with a lovely gentleness and a rare quality of being as interested in other people's experiences as your own. imho, these are compassionate gifts. (My Gramma would say, 'Oh, that Pennyplant, she has a nice way about her!')
I will start with something that I do know about myself. It is something that comes up frequently here. Thread ownership. I started this thread. As soon as I hit post, it will no longer belong to only me. It will belong to everybody here. That is a way of operating that actually works for me in my life. I enjoy seeing what develops naturally.
imho, this is a lovely self-portrait: a welcoming, receptive, thoughtful role. Your openness about accepting what comes, taking people where they are, honoring their Sixes is giving and an inspiration. I hope to emulate your soft footsteps should I start another thread.
Thank you for that.
Here is one more Six story for the collection (ironically, my H. calls it the '12 of Twelves').
In 6th grade, I was part of my first clique. Didn't know it was a clique, hadn't heard the word, but we did have a self-appointed leader. One day the leader ordered us to do something mean, something that would've hurt another person, and said, If you don't do this, you can't hang around with me anymore.' This confused me, because I didn't think of friends as bosses. I didn't even consider doing what she said, it was so obviously wrong. Also didn't consider that everyone else would go along with her, including my best friend. I was 12, as awkward as I'd ever be in my life, the 1st kid in my grade with braces, and I lost all my friends overnight. They just pretended I didn't exist, which was hard, since we sat next to each other in most of our classes. So I found other friends and tried to keep my chin up. Forgot about this story for years. Until my first truly scary boss. One day she literally ran out of a meeting with our Board of Directors, left me holding the bag, and got drunk in her office. After the meeting, she cornered me and asked four or five times, more desperate each time, if I still respected her. I really needed that job. And saw clearly that my days would be numbered if I couldn't give her that lie (truth is, I hadn't respected her before the meeting). But I just couldn't do it. Because, in many ways, I'm still that 12-year-old who can't stomach going along with a bad thing, no matter what it costs me.
Thanks for asking, Pennyplant, and thanks for sharing your Sixes, too. imho, they're all still in us, sometimes for the better.
LoH
PS- I really like that the boy from Kindergarten told you why he couldn't invite you, too, sensitive little guy.
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Hi ((((((Pennyplant)))))))
I’ve read your post and the replies and few times and wondered how to respond. I really enjoyed reading this thread. I’ve had several I am number six times, especially in childhood where I sat on the outside. I was never invited to parties as I was never allowed to go so people just stopped asking.
LoH’s post reminded me of a time when I was 11/12. My friends told me that they had turned into lesbians and the only way I could hang around with them was to choose one of them and kiss them. I so desperately wanted to be liked by them I was prepared to do it, and then they ran off shrieking. It was a one off incident, not how they normally were and I had forgotten about it.
I feel that everyone has value who posts here and I am glad you took the plunge and posted a thread.
Take care
H&H xx
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Good morning Penny and all:
Thanks for saying the "anything" thread is a success. For me, it's not because it's so many pages long. I don't think it matters really so much about the number of pages a thread gets to, or that that makes it successful so much. For me, it's more what I was hoping for.....that someone would be interested in posting there, someone understands or wants to understand, someone wants to add to it or comment. It goes with not feeling so alone. "I'm not the only one thinking about this or who has something to say about it" type of thing. Is it a selfish thing? I want someone to post to my thread. If they do, then I didn't waste my time and I don't feel so alone. If they don't......why? I don't know. My worry is that I will still feel alone. Be the only one who thinks about whatever.
I see threads with 0 replies and my heart goes out. I always read those and try to post if I have anything at all to say. I feel sad for the original poster when no one replies but sometimes it's just too weird for me and I have nothing to add. And some are just some kind of announcement that do not seem to require comment.
But I don't consider that good thinking, really. People might be thinking some more. People might be tied up in their own stuff and not able to read or post to my thread. People might be interested, but more interested and feeling they want to post elsewhere.....and simply because of time element....unable to post everywhere..including my thread. There are lot's of reasons, I guess. I need to remember to think of them.
Never underestimate the power of kindergarten!
I love it Penny! It's sooo true!!
Teachers are supposed to feed passion not kill it.
Yes, although I'm not sure it's possible to kill passion and lucky for me, I figgered that out fairly quick and simply had no respect for the ones that tried to do this. Weird eh? But that's what I did. I'd think: "Poor useless teacher". Seriously. But I was double lucky because I had so many wonderful, helpful, encouraging teachers, with their own passion for enhancing children's development and cheering them along. A blessing, I think.
I did a LOT of things wrong with him, but that one I got right.
I bet you did plenty more right too. You seem like a very calm, perceptive and caring mother. And how nice for your son to have his painting displayed openly and complimented like that. That's the kind of thing that really lets a child know that their effort is appreciated. Effort is so important, I think. Not so much as success but effort.......trying.......is worth noting and rewarding. It's the only way to success anyhow.
I am sometimes torn between too much "correction" and real growth. I guess that's what I'm after--growth. In hopes that it will feel better and better to be alive
It is a fine line too eh? Between "correction" and "real growth". In terms of seeing "wrong" vs seeing "potential for improvement". Correction means there's an error, something's broken, or needs to be fixed. It's got a whole negative connotation to it implying "bad" (which sometimes......that's exactly what it is......downright bad behaviour that needs correction, for example). That's what I think. But for me.......I try to consider potential for improving myself. That will never change because I will never be perfect, so it will always be there. Rather than "something is wrong with me", I try to think: "I could do, feel, be better ...". The key word there is: "try". I don't always succeed thinking like that either. But I find I go places when I do try harder to focus on how to improve, rather than adding up what's wrong...and to me....that's the road to real growth.
Have you found you've grown by reading here? Are you taking account of your potential?
These are good questions to ask oneself, I think. For me, anyway.
In hopes that it will feel better and better to be alive.
I love the way you worded that. I bet you will get there too! Keep trying!!
Thanks for saying my thingy about truth and trust was cool (and real growth). I think so. When I read it.....it sounds like a tongue twister though! :D
The first compliment I ever got from my mother happened when I was 24.
:( :(
I'm so sorry for this. Compliments are so important for a child. Especially, from their mother, who is supposed to adore them. It's sad and unfair that you had a mother that didn't do this or see the value of you.....and point it out....until you were way past where it would have made such a difference. (((Penny))).
You sound like such a warm and sincere person, Penny. You deserve to be complimented on your good qualities. And to be loved for all you are, flaws and all. Especially......by your mother.
I bet you are different than toward your son than she was to you. I just bet you are!!
:D Sela
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Hi Portia,
Like my response to IamNewtoMe, this one is going to take me a while to compose because it also hits on things, well, it gets to the heart and soul of it, some of the stuff I struggle with.
You mentioned the care and carefulness of this thread. It is something that I'm conscious of as I'm composing and replying, and I believe it may put some people off. But I'm going with it anyway because it is the direction I'm taking my life in. I have always been a little scaredy cat about so many things. I thought good behavior would score me some points with others and make them like me, value me. And I knew when people, kids especially, DIDN'T like me, terrible things happened. For my age, I was one of the littlest kids in the neighborhood. Kind of a loud mouth, well more of a jabberjaw. Still though, not much of a threat to anyone. I got punched in the stomach, punched in the eye twice, things thrown at me, threats, told to go home and stay there because nobody wanted a redhead around, etc. My responses were to fly off the handle, yell, cry, and it just made it worse. And then I had lost my dignity on top of it all. It was just a vicious cycle. So, this deliberate carefulness is my way of teaching myself to say what I mean and not get so distracted by out of control emotions that I lose sight of the purpose. I want to go slow and understand things more thoroughly. I'm doing this is 3-D life as well. And perhaps I am still just being tentative out of habitual fear. Maybe 10 percent.
It is still hard to admit or remember the many times that I acted like a child when I WAS a child but somehow expected by others, my parents or other adults, to be braver or smarter or stronger and just not let it bother me when I was really feeling pretty devastated that my neighbors and peers would treat me so badly. There were times that I had lots of friends, but that didn't shield me any. They didn't know how to defend me. They were probably just glad it wasn't them.
What is my role here? What is the value of my role here? Yeah, these questions tell a lot about me and what I struggle with. I am a person who worries about what others want, expect, need from me. I still am having trouble thinking my existance is enough. Still want to be "important". But what would be important? I know I don't want wealth or power or fame. Though when I was little that is exactly what I fantasized when I thought of being an adult. My young interpretation of mattering to others. When, from what I could see, I didn't really matter to anyone. I know I exasperated people. But I wasn't so desperate for attention that I was willing to annoy and exasperate others. So, I tried to behave in ways I thought wouldn't annoy and exasperate. It is a very manipulative way to be. But that was par for the course at my house. I didn't realize I was trying to manipulate people and outcomes until I was in my late twenties. I thought I was just trying to make life tolerable. For all involved.
Now I feel as though I’ve done this thread a disservice by not telling a story, so I’ll try and tell one. Remembering school days. Just realised I thought it was kind that my father collected me at lunchtimes (age 5) to buy me sweets and take me for walks around the streets; but now I thought, that was for his benefit, not mine, maybe that’s why I didn’t have friends? Maybe not. Trying to remember friends at school. First and second schools, no idea. Third primary school, age about 9. Had a friend there, don’t know her name. I gave her a shoulder ride and she fell off and broke her front adult tooth and I still feel bad about it. Think of good times there…telling stories at playtime, a group of girls would sit and listen to me tell stories that I made up. What were they about I wonder? Fourth primary school, I remember the female cliques and being wary of them. Can’t remember any friends there. Secondary school for two years and met my best friend who was an outsider taunted by the others. Maybe I felt a kinship? We became very close and eventually accepted by the others. Interesting. I then moved to an isolated unhealthy community and went to a rubbish school so I joined a small group of drop-outs; I guess we were the ‘peripheral group’ :D.
Portia, I often think that it is my own fault that people often don't know what to make of me or that they feel distance is more appropriate with me. I'm so busy being careful, self-critical, and "good" that I suppose they sense something that holds them back. But don't my quirks say more about me than others? Or maybe it is true that if I'm too hard on me, then I might have a tendency to be too hard on others. So, people would be right to be careful if only to guard their own feelings. And there's the cycle, because that's all I'm really doing, is guarding my feelings.
Sometimes I feel like I'm just a teenager. The last few years I've gotten myself into some sticky situations in my efforts to free myself from all the restrictions I took on so long ago. Trying to be human and not "good" all the time. Trying to be like a regular person and let my flaws show. Oh, is that ever hard to do. Even harder at age 44. Better to have learned these things at 14.
I'm getting around to saying I think it is interesting that you shared your story so as not to do this thread a disservice. Is that because I said I might lock the thread if somehow anger took over? I guess I couldn't completely let things take their natural course :? . I do tend to make things more complicated. It is definitely not easy to be this kind of a person....
Your story starts out similarly to the way my husband's story starts out. He wasn't on anybody's list either. They moved all the time. One time he actually got left behind at the old house and the sheriff had to pick him up--he was about 4 or 5. What I can't believe is that he still has so much empathy for my "woes" when his seem worse to me. But he thinks mine were worse because of my family. I guess he and I were meant to share this life.
Portia, to me your story is one of constant and possibly arbitrary interruptions. Do you have unfinished business from all that? Did you skip over any stages of life or growth that maybe now seem to be rising up? The control and distance of the internet--could it be related to this early life? These questions come from my own take on how we "become". And maybe I'm just too analytical. One of my hobbies is genealogy. I have spent years off and on looking up my ancestors. I'm not particularly obsessed with it but the stories I've managed to collect, well, sometimes I can tell how someone's life turned out before I get that far, based on what major things were going on early in life. The moves, the losses of significant others. Not that I'm so smart, just that the more things change the more they stay the same. The people who had stability, fit in with society better. Lucky for them I suppose. And who knows which comes first. Fitting in or stability. Both seem to lead to longevity. Personally, I'm shooting for a meaningful life. What that is I'm not so sure of yet.
I'm glad you risked the carefulness of this thread to post your story, Portia. All my life I've been caught up in my own outsider-ness. I knew I wasn't really alone in that, but wouldn't have known what to look for in others. There is always to much more to a person than what you see, or read, at first. Everbody is so interesting. If you can get to that, sometimes you can make a connection. One of my goals.
Pennyplant
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Hi All,
I really want to respond more to this thread, especially dear Pennyplant. But as i have no help with the kiddie today, my time on line is limited. I just wanted to quickly say this:
Well, maybe these examples from my past are coloring my reaction to your story. It seems like if you could share your own reaction to your mother's words, if you want, that might help me get past my own bias here and learn something new. I'm definitely biased here. Wow, it is no wonder I had trouble forming up a response at first!
I think your reaction to my post was really interesting and meaningful. It really made me think and learn (more on this later). But I wanted to say that I do not think you are biased, well, only in the sense that everybody on the whole planet is biased. Each person has a perspective that is unique to them. That's why people are so interesting. I really value your perspective, and I'm really glad you started this thread!
more later.
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Hi LightofHeart,
All the warm things you have said about me and this thread--aren't I just automatically going back and forth in my mind thinking, well what would she think if she saw me at work being cranky with someone who I think is a creep? Am I still a nice person if I treat someone I don't like coldly? Why can't I be more neutral at least with someone like that, who is afterall human like me? I take these concerns to my husband and he has a phrase for this problem--"Sustained Goodwill." He explained it to me like this: if the majority of the time you treat people well, do your best, act respectfully most of the time, then the occasional weakness is the exception and you are a good person. So, if I'm beating myself up about something relatively small in the grand scheme of things, sustained goodwill.
But.... that person I don't like, well they don't get much of the good me and I don't know what to do about that. Maybe in that situation that's all that's possible. Selfish, lazy people bring out this cold side of me. Or people who seem threatening on some level--dumping work on me, jeopardizing my job, being rude and disrespectful to me.
Here on this board, no one has insulted me. And the times when I have felt anxious, frustrated, mixed-up--I have the benefit of time and distance to work on my feelings and what they mean. I can show my best self here because of the structure of this group. And maybe I don't want to keep dwelling on my weaknesses all the time anyway. I hope I don't go the other way and not be vigilant enough.
LoH, what happened to the girl the clique was going to hurt? I am so glad you had the guts to not go along. I am so glad all they did was freeze you out. Painful enough, I know, but I have heard horrendous stories of cliques who destroyed girls that they turned on. I was one who was tormented by two former friends. But years later, when I heard a story about a girl who was run over and set on fire until she died, I realized I could have been much worse off. It started to set me free from their betrayal when I realized what I might have escaped. That what they did to me was something I could heal from.
A friend told me once that I am a survivor. And recently a supervisor told me that I do more than the newer employee (who seriously annoys me with her "work" ethic) because I can "take it". I don't know how these parts of me fit in with how I am here. I guess I'm somewhat complicated. Like most people. Hopefully, most people who know me well, see that I am mostly like I am here.
Back to your story. I am so impressed with your response to the out of control boss. I think I might have lied to her to keep my job, if something like that happened to me today. Unless I was emotional enough about it to let fly. Because five years ago, when I walked out on N-boss, it took me five months to get the job I have now. Which was about as long as our "extra" money lasted. It scared me when I realized that I can no longer just be hired for whatever job I apply for. It scared me that I might have risked us losing our house when we still had a son at home. It scared me that I was 39 then and hadn't made any plans for a pension. So, I admire greatly that you still kept your standards in spite of really needing that job. What job came next? Is that a story of something happening for a reason?
I do feel that me walking out on my old job has led to the path I'm on now, including coming to this board. So, I don't regret it. And I hope I get my guts back soon so that if I have to, I will be able to take a risk in support of what is right to do.
Thank you so much LoH. What I want to do here, is have an impact on others with my story and be impacted by others from their stories. That has been happening all along. I have been growing ever since I got here and people have said things which make me believe that they learned something from me. It doesn't have to be all the people all the time. What is nice is that it happens frequently enough not to be a fluke!!! That kind of thing, the back and forth, makes me feel alive.
Pennyplant
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I have to take a little break now. This is intense and great. But I have to go back to work soon and didn't sleep well last night (too hot) and so that is why I'm taking a break until probably tomorrow. I am learning so much. It might be awhile before I think of a new thread to try. But it is a satisfying thing to do and well worth it. All the more amazing how many people here start so many interesting topics :D .
PP
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PP
I’m glad you’re taking a break because I need to too! It gives me a chance to properly consider your reply too. I’ll come back tomorrow I think. For now I wanted to say:
I'm getting around to saying I think it is interesting that you shared your story so as not to do this thread a disservice. Is that because I said I might lock the thread if somehow anger took over?
No not because of that at all, I thought you saying that was a good boundary-marker and I liked it. No I felt I might be doing a disservice because I wasn’t telling enough, I wasn’t ……fitting in with the feel/tone of the thread. And I like the feel so I wanted to ‘do it service’ i.e. respect the environment? Something like that. Maybe I wanted to be accepted into the group on this thread? Scary thought. Group dynamics! Maybe I just thought there were many stories here and not to share something personal would seem…to be deliberately being ‘different’ and I didn’t want to be different. Interesting? On topic I think. I guess it’s always a balance of some degree. Bye for now!
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Hi Penny, long post, I’m splitting in half, trying to control the length of the page…..how anal can I get??? :roll:
I like the care and carefulness of your posts, it doesn’t put me off, it makes me stop and read carefully. I think you have a distinctive voice, to me anyway. Why would it put people off – and if it did, would you want to talk to those people? In other words, it’s all okay.
I’m thinking hard as I write this because what you say makes me think about myself and I apologise now because I’ve written about me below, comparing I guess.
Reading about how you were treated as a kid. I was punched in the stomach once, aged about 8/9. Three lads ran past and one threw a punch and totally winded me (couldn’t breathe, thought I was going to die), but it seemed completely arbitrary – I didn’t know this boy. Just being punched by a stranger for the heck of it. I was tall and fairly quiet, being tall generally stops other kids beating you up I think, so maybe I escaped that. You appear to have a strong idea of what you were like (talkative, demonstrative), I don’t think I do. I felt more like a shadow, ignored? Maybe.
Still want to be "important". But what would be important? I know I don't want wealth or power or fame. Though when I was little that is exactly what I fantasized when I thought of being an adult. My young interpretation of mattering to others. When, from what I could see, I didn't really matter to anyone.
I had a vague idea of being powerful, being able to do what I liked, being free. I know I didn’t matter, I knew it then - not mattering to anyone in the family that is. My grandparents’ love for me was like a treat for being good and it made me believe I had some worth.
I didn't realize I was trying to manipulate people and outcomes until I was in my late twenties.
Hey this is good going I think! I have no idea what I was doing. I just went with whatever came along, surviving, enjoying whatever attention came my way, somewhat indiscriminately, getting myself into situations where I felt used but thinking I had to do that to survive. I didn’t look at ‘me’ until after age 40.
Guarding your feelings…I guess I guard my feelings too, if I recognise them as feelings in the first place? I do recognise them more now but before, no. People where I once worked viewed me as ‘the odd bird’, at my last work the staff thought I was nutty (eccentric I suppose) and they enjoyed it, I think. I’m harder on myself than I am on other people. Are you harder to others only in your head, your judgements of them, or do you act on your judgements? I’m 44 too. Letting your flaws show….accepting the parts of yourself that you feel are ‘bad’? Are they really flaws? Or things that your parents disapproved of, or those things that you were persecuted for as a kid? Being talkative and having red hair have brought some people a lot of ‘success’ (but I wouldn’t like to be Anne Robinson who uses bullying and condescension to be successful, neither would I like to be her daughter).
One time he actually got left behind at the old house and the sheriff had to pick him up--he was about 4 or 5. What I can't believe is that he still has so much empathy for my "woes" when his seem worse to me.
Imagine that! At that age. Parents. I don’t know if anyone thinks their woes are the worst? I’m not sure our brains allow it? But we all deal with our own experiences and can’t help somehow comparing them, even though there is no way to truly compare.
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About stages of growth I missed; lots of it I suppose, I’ve been playing at being grown up for sure. I used to regress to toddlerhood easily and while I recognise the unpleasant side of that (and it seems to have gone now) I still feel very young in my curiosity … maybe that’s behind the wanting to analyse and explore and dig away at problems …maybe that’s what I didn’t do ages 3 to 7? Beyond perhaps? I don’t remember much enjoyable play (like painting etc); I was pretty serious and always thoughtful, restrained, wary maybe. can’t quite cope with the idea that as adult I can actually do whatever I’m capable of, less, what I want to do! Still enjoying saying ‘no, I don’t want to do that’.
The control and distance of the internet--could it be related to this early life?
Oh yes I’m sure, control of my time and nobody can control me, take a bite. My freedom – the thing I always wanted most – is limited because I restrict myself a lot. But I do enjoy it: I’ve strived for it and it’s security. It’s a controlled security though. This seems pretty bleak. But, if it’s all in my head (and it is), is being ‘out there’ going to help, being subject to peoples’ influences (I’m probably easily influenced if I don’t sense danger and my sensing can be off)? There are very few people I don’t find it difficult to be with for anything over an hour. I feel semi-permeable sometimes and other people crowd ‘me’ in my head, it’s very tiring. In work interviews I take too much notice of the other people, their mannerisms, eye movements, tone of voice and most often, I just don’t like people. It’s not a judgement as such, I just don’t want to be near them. Is it worth trying to change that? What for? Etc.
The people who had stability, fit in with society better.
I don’t like most statistics because they give a warped view. How on earth ‘they’ did research to say the following, I don’t know but I’ll quote the stats anyway. They’re for the UK I think, probably taken from work done between now and 1980 or thereabouts. Of the four attachment patterns, ‘they’ reckon the population falls within the categories like this:
Secure - 50%
Avoidant – 20%
Clinger – 10%
Wobbler – 20%
So if half the population are secure (stable in relationships), they probably fit in to society better – the 50% of society that is also secure. Those in the other categories, well I guess they don’t fit in, they are the ‘achievers’ and the ‘losers’.
Loss of one parent in early life seems to create many people who are exceptionally driven to achieve. Great achievers are not likely to be stable though I think.
I think we can only do the best with what we have; and understanding what we have will help us choose how best to ‘use’ it. I don’t think for me, it would make me happier or more content if I were to try to become a social person. What’s the point? However maybe I can use this thing I have with people in some capacity. I guess it’s trying to work out what I was becoming as a child, and recognising the traits and abilities I learned and putting them to full use. Not trying to change them, or become some other person that really, my brain tells me, isn’t completely possible. It’s being content with what I am, not trying to change into something I’m not – and I’m definitely not amongst the 50% (???where do they get this stuff??!) who are stable, ‘normal’.
What you were becoming as a child – talkative, vivacious, alive, (funny?) – hey how do you fancy joining the local drama group? Get a part as real villain, or an empty-headed flirt, or a duchess, or …?
I don’t imagine I’ve replied as you might have imagined. But maybe there’s something in there for one if not both of us? I’ll post it and let it go!
Oh can I say something about your reply to LoH please? About :Selfish, lazy people bring out this cold side of me – and why not? Why do you have to be ‘good’ to these people when they’re not being good to you? You don’t have to reciprocate with rudeness, but you can cut them off, turn the other cheek. If people don’t treat you well, I don’t agree with treating them better. We’re all equal. We have to do what matches our personal values: if someone robs me, I won’t rob them in return but I will want my property back and I will want to tell them exactly how I feel. These ‘weaknesses’ of yours, aren’t they simply part of being human, do they need correction, or even suppressing? What are they really? Being intolerant of idiots? (that’s not a weakness to me, it’s a survival strategy I mean to build on, seriously).
Hope you have a good weekend if I don’t get back here.
PS Something a little lighter 8) from the media:
From The Mirror newspaper 4 May 2006
WHO IS NUMBER SIX?
By Cameron Robertson
CHRISTOPHER Eccleston is in talks to play the oppressed Number Six in a £6million TV remake of 60s cult classic The Prisoner. :roll: this was only last month, you could write and tell them - you are number six :D
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I’ve read your post and the replies and few times and wondered how to respond. I really enjoyed reading this thread. I’ve had several I am number six times, especially in childhood where I sat on the outside. I was never invited to parties as I was never allowed to go so people just stopped asking.
LoH’s post reminded me of a time when I was 11/12. My friends told me that they had turned into lesbians and the only way I could hang around with them was to choose one of them and kiss them. I so desperately wanted to be liked by them I was prepared to do it, and then they ran off shrieking. It was a one off incident, not how they normally were and I had forgotten about it.
Hi H&H,
I'm so glad you brought up the issue of when you always have to say no, people stop asking. That has happened to my husband and me as adults! There was the break we took from living here when he was in the Navy and people we had known and our relatives spent all those years building the habits of who they would spend their Fridays and Sundays and holidays with, who they would just pick up the phone to call or just stop by to see on the spur of them moment. We never became part of those habits and therefore never became part of those circles. When we came back and tried to get together it often didn't work because they were already busy. Almost like they had made permanent "dates" with other people and couldn't change those plans to include us.
Then, once we were able to find a way to participate, our jobs changed and we became unavailable for different reasons. Our kids were older than everybody else's kids, because we started so young, so they didn't understand why we were so busy and not always available at the drop of a hat. I think sometimes they felt hurt by that because they didn't yet understand how it is to have to go up to the school three nights a week. Now their kids are the ages ours were and they are busy that way and still don't have time for us. It is a vicious cycle when you live your life outside the average rhythms like we did. We are always ahead or always behind our peers. All of those things are part of being a member of a group or circle. Another lesson I learned the hard way.
I wonder, do you think that the time when you were 11-12 and your friends played that trick on you--were you maybe a little more innocent or naive than they were and they took advantage of that? I'm glad it was just a fluke. But it did make me think how as children we all take in the world at a different pace. I remember being slightly less worldly than my peers, less sophisticated and less ready for boy/girl things than they were. I daydreamed a lot about boys but would get so knotted up inside if it seemed like a boy liked me. And I do remember playing some nudity games with other girls and also being willing to participate on some level, not because I wanted to (as I never would have thought of that type of physical stuff with other girls) but because I wanted them to think I was as cool as they were. They were the ones thinking this way, not me. Maybe I was behind or ahead then too. Because I sure was interested in boys!!! It did feel weird to get into that stuff with others girls and I have often thought it was a little warped and was embarrassed that I was part of that. I'm so glad I didn't get caught!
Thank you, H&H for sharing your number sixes.
PP
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Thanks for saying the "anything" thread is a success. For me, it's not because it's so many pages long. I don't think it matters really so much about the number of pages a thread gets to, or that that makes it successful so much. For me, it's more what I was hoping for.....that someone would be interested in posting there, someone understands or wants to understand, someone wants to add to it or comment. It goes with not feeling so alone.
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But I don't consider that good thinking, really. People might be thinking some more. People might be tied up in their own stuff and not able to read or post to my thread. People might be interested, but more interested and feeling they want to post elsewhere.....and simply because of time element....unable to post everywhere..including my thread. There are lot's of reasons, I guess. I need to remember to think of them.
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I'm not sure it's possible to kill passion and lucky for me, I figgered that out fairly quick and simply had no respect for the ones that tried to do this. Weird eh? But that's what I did. I'd think: "Poor useless teacher". Seriously.
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You seem like a very calm, perceptive and caring mother.
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It is a fine line too eh? Between "correction" and "real growth".
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Have you found you've grown by reading here? Are you taking account of your potential?
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I bet you are different than toward your son than she was to you. I just bet you are!!
Hi Sela, I have to confess, I'm always impressed by big numbers!!! I can't seem to help myself! A thread that is 46 pages long makes me think WOW! She really did something there! But I do get what you're saying about just hoping somebody else out there thinks like you do. I find that wonderfully comforting myself.
One thing this place is helping me with, present tense as I'm not through learning this particular lesson, is the idea that just because someone goes quiet or doesn't respond to me especially, it doesn't mean they don't like me or think I said something stupid. They have a whole life going on behind the computer screen and so many obstacles that I don't know about. My first instinct is always to take it personally and I must be wrong about that 90% of the time or more. To let go of that idea will be very freeing for me. This place gives me lots of practice with not taking things personally in the wrong way.
I'm very impressed that you recognized your kindergarten teacher's lack of insight being so young. Your own insight is one of your special talents no doubt. My husband had similar insight at a very young age and that is probably one of the aspects of his personality that feeds a part of me. It helps me trust him. I have to learn to trust my own insight more. It is there but I get so easily distracted and doubtful of it.
About me as a mother--I am not being humble to say that I did a very poor job of parenting my oldest son for probably the first 6 to 10 years of his life. I was aware of what was lacking but my very immature pride kept me from making the necessary changes right away. Now, as a parent, I think I do more right than wrong. And I'm fortunate that I didn't let pride keep me from doing better by my first son once I was able. He is an amazing person in his own right and I think he has forgiven me the bad times. He has had a hard journey all on his own without me adding to it. But he is a practical person as his first grade teacher pointed out to me once and also learns as he goes sort of like me. He seems to be finding his way.
Yeah, you're right, correction has a negative connotation. I am at the awkward stage now of having decided not to always "correct" my personality. Sometimes it feels like I'm doing some wrong things by allowing myself to feel cranky or lazy or anti-social for a day or two at work. But it seems like I have to find a way to balance out the correction vs the growth and sometimes I do some unlikeable things along the way. I'm sure it's just a stage.....
Yes, yes, yes, I am growing as a direct result of all the reading and posting I'm doing here. I can feel it happening every day. That's one of the things that keeps me here.
On the touching thread I mentioned that I think my mother couldn't give what she didn't have. Now she seems to be aware of the importance of some of this stuff. It is awkward for her sometimes I think. But she does make fairly consistant efforts to be affectionate at times. Sometimes even seems to be trying to be nice to me or say something nice about what I have done. It's pretty patchy. With my oldest son, I think I went overboard sometimes in those areas. I think it made him feel uncomfortable. Too much attention at times may have felt like scrutiny. Like being under a microscope. That didn't happen with his brother. His brother benefitted a lot from my earlier mistakes. It was a little harder for me to switch gears with the oldest as I felt guilty for the past and didn't really want to acknowledge it by changing everything all of a sudden. Kind of dumb now I think :roll: .
Thank you, Sela. It's so helpful to read your take on things and have your questions to work with.
PP
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Hi Pennplant,
Sorry to quote so much from your post (below), but I thought it might make it easier, since the post was a ways back.
I got two opposite feelings in me when you shared this part of your story. You see, my mother always made me feel ashamed for not being popular or having boyfriends (at a fairly young age!) as was true for her when she was a girl. Which just made me feel more odd and lonely. And it wasn't like she shared social skills with me. She really didn't have any either, but instead happened to be lucky that she was a very pretty little girl who had an average personality in the 50s. Kids just gravitated to her and she didn't really have to do any work at all. She giggled a lot and was cute and didn't over-think so she could fit in easily as long as she was welcomed, which she was. Guess she thought it would happen like magic for me too. Anyway, I guess I might have felt less weird as a child if my mother had said we had something that big in common.
BUT! It is so not a good thing that she put you into her world like that. So, the other feeling I got was a sort of hopeless, trapped feeling. "So, this is how I am. I'll never have any friends." And I have experienced something like that as well, from my father. He was kind of an oddball (perhaps Asperger's Syndrome) and while he had friends, he knew nothing of chit chat, easy-going banter, easy-going anything really. And one day, when I was about 14 (the year my parents divorced and two former friends tormented me in school) he said, "I'm afraid you are going to turn out like me, and always have trouble making friends." Oh God, I did not want to have that idea of myself! And it sure seemed like a good possibility that he might be right, since at the time my social life was horrendous. It made me feel terrible.
Well, maybe these examples from my past are coloring my reaction to your story. It seems like if you could share your own reaction to your mother's words, if you want, that might help me get past my own bias here and learn something new. I'm definitely biased here. Wow, it is no wonder I had trouble forming up a response at first!
Pennyplant
As I said before, I really value your perspective. It really made me think, learn, and grow.
What your mother did to you must have been so painful. It's so not right that she made you feel ashamed. It must have been really hard, too, that your dad couldn't help you discover some more positive images of your social skills (at the very least, being a gentle and thoughtful person as you are goes a long way toward making friends).
My mom is an N. Am I guessing correctly that your mom is an N, too? If not, then you can probably disregard the rest of my post, because that is the assumption I am going on here. let me know if I am way off, and I will think on this some more. I am trying to see the similarities and differences in our stories and put it together with what I know about Ns. I think two N traits come to mind. 1) N's try to shape their kids into what they want to be, themselves.
2) N's either praise the child or devalue the child, depending on how the child fulfills #1.
I think the same thing was going on in both our stories, but with different results. Your mom wanted you to be popular, as she saw herself. You did not live up to her warped expectations, so she tore you down and devalued you. My mom saw herself as as so special that no one could possibly be so cool as to understand her and associate with her. She saw heself as a maverick. Very grandiose. Because I had no friends, somehow she convinced herself that I must be a misunderstood maverick like her (I did not buy into this romanticized image; I just felt lonely and pathetic, even secretly failing at being like her, but I didn't dare tell her that!). Because I lived up to her own self image in her eyes, I was a success. I was one of the few times in my life that she felt I lived up to her expectations. Even more depressing to me, beacuase I felt I didn't.
That said, I think what your mom did to you must have hurt more than what my mom did to me. After all, approval is approval, no matter how warped it is. And at least I got some approval that day. Then again, I am not sure I would wish that kind of praise on anyone, either. So confusing. Not sure any of this makes sense.
I still have a lot to learn. Thanks again for your thoughtful thread. There are so many rich ideas here!
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I am feeling warm and happy this morning--this thread may be playing a big part in that :D .
(((Portia, LightofHeart, Healing&Hopeful))) --If I hug all at once, I feel less overwhelmed for some reason. Even in cyberspace, how funny.
A side-note: I just printed out this thread as I thought I could keep better track of the replies I want to make. Two pages on the screen translated into 31 pieces of paper!!!! So, Sela, I hope you never want to print out the Anything thread :lol: !
PP
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I felt I might be doing a disservice because I wasn’t telling enough, I wasn’t ……fitting in with the feel/tone of the thread. And I like the feel so I wanted to ‘do it service’ i.e. respect the environment? Something like that. Maybe I wanted to be accepted into the group on this thread? Scary thought. Group dynamics!
The good thing about getting on this thread, Portia, is that it was started by a person who has "Group Dynamics Phobia" or GDP. So, while it might take some suprising turns, really all anyone needs to be willing to do is go with the flow 8) . And here I was taking it a little personal and thinking maybe I shouldn't have said the thing about anger and thread-locking.... Sooner or later I will conquer this taking things personally problem.
Reading about how you were treated as a kid. I was punched in the stomach once, aged about 8/9. Three lads ran past and one threw a punch and totally winded me (couldn’t breathe, thought I was going to die), but it seemed completely arbitrary – I didn’t know this boy. Just being punched by a stranger for the heck of it. I was tall and fairly quiet, being tall generally stops other kids beating you up I think, so maybe I escaped that. You appear to have a strong idea of what you were like (talkative, demonstrative), I don’t think I do. I felt more like a shadow, ignored? Maybe.
I had a vague idea of being powerful, being able to do what I liked, being free. I know I didn’t matter, I knew it then - not mattering to anyone in the family that is. My grandparents’ love for me was like a treat for being good and it made me believe I had some worth.
You know, I do wonder what it would be like if the cruelty I experienced in childhood had been arbitrary and not specifically aimed at me. Maybe I would have learned to blow it off better? In general, though, I was the intended target. It is pretty hard to believe it wasn't meant for me when it was so specific to my looks or my name. And my name was not anything particularly strange or unusual--but when kids don't like you to begin with, they can be especially creative with name twisting. I forgot; I also was spit on in the face and had a worm thrown at me. The spit--I will never forget the boy who did that to me. I see him every so often now and I admit I take pleasure in knowing that he has an unhappy marriage. What goes around comes around. He was the main person behind some of the worst torment. I will never know why. I guess I caught his attention somehow. His father owned (and still owns) a shoe store in town. Other bullies were the children of the owner of our local Pepsi bottler. Do capitalists somehow impart to their offspring the idea that they are more deserving of space, power, everything?
I have often thought maybe my childhood would have gone better if I had been less noticeable and quieter. But I was very, very expressive by nature and think I might have exploded if I had tried too hard to be another way. Later on, when life began going badly in general, I lost my expressiveness and became more self-conscious and tied up inside. Life just shut me up eventually. And things didn't go any better. So, I guess I've answered my own question there.
Since my parents ignored me a lot, I did have a certain amount of freedom though. I sort of became responsible for myself in exchange. I think that feeling of responsibility did give me a certain kind of power. Maybe I did know myself pretty well. It was when the doubts came in play that I was sunk. That's what I need to get rid of now. Self-doubt.
Fortunately you had grandparents who valued you. I always felt like a burden. I felt sorry for my parents that they got stuck with me for their daughter. I can't think of any other adult who valued me much. Oh, that's not true. One of my aunts said nice things to me and would hold my hand when I stayed there and we'd go to the store or down the street. But I didn't stay there often enough to understand the routine and become accustomed to the atmosphere at their house. Too bad. I might have learned to be affectionate sooner and learned to like me as much as her family did. They lived an hour away and my mother didn't particularly like her sister-in-law. More obstacles to belonging and acceptance.
Guarding your feelings…I guess I guard my feelings too, if I recognise them as feelings in the first place? I do recognise them more now but before, no. People where I once worked viewed me as ‘the odd bird’, at my last work the staff thought I was nutty (eccentric I suppose) and they enjoyed it, I think. I’m harder on myself than I am on other people. Are you harder to others only in your head, your judgements of them, or do you act on your judgements? I’m 44 too. Letting your flaws show….accepting the parts of yourself that you feel are ‘bad’? Are they really flaws? Or things that your parents disapproved of, or those things that you were persecuted for as a kid? Being talkative and having red hair have brought some people a lot of ‘success’ (but I wouldn’t like to be Anne Robinson who uses bullying and condescension to be successful, neither would I like to be her daughter).
I wonder what an odd bird is, Portia. What do you do that makes people think that? Where I work, being different or eccentric is appreciated because it is interesting and maybe seen as freedom. I think I would probably like you if you worked where I do.
I suspect that when I am judgmental of someone, or not liking someone, it is not something I successfully keep in my head. It shows in my body-language and interactions with the person. Sometimes, not often, but vividly enough that people will remember, I will let someone have it. One time a co-worker was acting pompous and unreasonable, talking about what everyone should be doing FOR him because of his exalted position as the senior person. He is quite lazy by nature by the way. He was blaming the supervisor for his terrible mistreatment by us lower souls and she was apologizing for upsetting him by asking him to work. I was furious just from listening to this even though he wasn't specifically directing it at me. But he was offending my moral sense. My sense of justice. So, I made a big show of going and getting the items he wanted. He, for some reason, followed me to also get what he wanted and I said, "Oh, no, DON'T lift a finger, I will BRING this TO you!" Very sarcastic. He tried to get it anyway and I stepped in front of him and said the same thing again, only louder and more sarcastically. And then I brought it to him as befitting his lofty station in life. Well, did I get into a whole lot of "trouble" for that one! He actually tried to file a harrassment claim against me, for "physically preventing" him from doing his job. The job he had just got done saying he shouldn't have to do. I am 4'11" and he is 6'1". There was no physical harrassment. Just a lot of pointed sarcasm. It eventually blew over. But, no, I don't keep it to myself all the time. Some people do find these scenes, probably three or four of them in five years, very entertaining. I do what I can :wink: ....
I think I am critical of myself because my parents were picky and critical by nature about everything. Perhaps they were raised similarly. They were young and immature when they started out. Maybe scared and feeling over resposible. Both came from low-income families which brings it's own kind of pressures and pickiness. So, it was taught to me. I suspect my true nature is to be open and accepting. We shall find out at any rate.
This is so very interesting, Portia.
PP
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Hi again Pennyplant,
Well, so far as warm things go, your hubby sounds like a wise gem:
...my husband and he has a phrase for this problem--"Sustained Goodwill." He explained it to me like this: if the majority of the time you treat people well, do your best, act respectfully most of the time, then the occasional weakness is the exception and you are a good person.
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My Gramma would surely echo your H., and say, 'Sweet Penny, some folks just can't take to kindness, bless their hearts. Best to trust that good gut of yours.' What you describe as your cold side sounds like it could be emotional self-defense or preservation? Healthy instincts, imho, and can be real sanity-keepers. Speaking for myself, once I accepted that I couldn't save anyone, however I might want to, the buffer of distance was a real godsend with some folks who previously might've gotten my goat 20 times at one sitting.
LoH, what happened to the girl the clique was going to hurt?
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A friend told me once that I am a survivor.
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Hope you don't mind that I put these quotes together? 'Cause I think it says a lot about you, Pennyplant, that your heart would go out to the person targeted. I think you're a survivor, too: a compassionate survivor, which isn't always the case. I know other good and wonderful survivors who simply have little or no patience for anyone they see as unempowered compared to themselves. A sort of take-no-prisoners toughness I wouldn't judge...but generally not the kindest route. You seem much more giving than that.
The girl who was targeted by the clique kept to a solitary orbit on the far edge of the playground before this happened, and kept even more to herself afterwards. The worst part is, the clique didn't do it as a group: each one came at her individually, spouted the leader's mean words, then ran back to the group, laughing. Truly brutal, just sickening. I tried to apologize for them when it was all over, to tell her what jerks they were, but she was so humilitated by then--everyone had seen and heard--she just ran away.
Because five years ago, when I walked out on N-boss, it took me five months to get the job I have now.
What job came next? Is that a story of something happening for a reason?
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If you would like to tell, I would be very interested to know more about your walkout, and how it helped lead to the path you seem happy about now? imho, these kind of experiences and journeys are a real joy to hear about. Warm fuzzies, and much inspiration.
Re. my scary boss, I'm positive this happened for a reason, and the best. A few months after the 'respect' incident, she had a rage breakdown on the job and fired the whole management staff, including me, at 4 pm on a Friday. No reason given for any of the firings, my first and only canning--which came three weeks after a glowing performance review and raise for me. My (not-yet) H. and I had just quit excellent jobs and moved X country to the west coast, and there we were with no family at all, him still looking for work, and now without any income at all. I was stunned and scared to death. We had to sell back CDs just to buy food.
BUT (you just can't make this sh%$ up!) I had the good luck to be fired the day before I had a plane ticket to go to the beach, east coast, to hang with my family. Went out with the other ex-managers after the bomb dropped, hit happy hour, and wound up singing 'Take this Job and Shove it' at a karaoke bar filled with wildly appreciative Japanese businessmen and decided, full of sushi and umbrella drinks, it made perfect sense not to cash in the ticket and go on the trip anyway. While at the beach, I read the help wanted section of a big city newspaper exactly once, and, buried in all the techonology and nursing jobs, there was an ad for a job in a cool little city that could have been written just for me. Being deeply impractical, I sold a diamond ring, hired a moving man, and my (not-yet) H. and I drove 3,000 miles based on my absolute certainty the job was mine, and a shared feeling that we loved our family too much to live 3 time zones away. Got the job, my H. and I were married while we lived in that little city, and never looked back.
What I want to do here, is have an impact on others with my story and be impacted by others from their stories. That has been happening all along. I have been growing ever since I got here and people have said things which make me believe that they learned something from me...That kind of thing, the back and forth, makes me feel alive.
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For what it's worth, you've had an impact on me, Penny. Reading this thread, I think many others as well. Thanks for encouraging us to trade our joys here, and all the other pushes that led to them.
Hope you can stand another hug? ((((((((Pennyplant)))))))
Best,
Loh
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About stages of growth I missed
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I still feel very young in my curiosity … maybe that’s behind the wanting to analyse and explore and dig away at problems …maybe that’s what I didn’t do ages 3 to 7? Beyond perhaps? I don’t remember much enjoyable play (like painting etc); I was pretty serious and always thoughtful, restrained, wary maybe. can’t quite cope with the idea that as adult I can actually do whatever I’m capable of, less, what I want to do! Still enjoying saying ‘no, I don’t want to do that’.
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There are very few people I don’t find it difficult to be with for anything over an hour. I feel semi-permeable sometimes and other people crowd ‘me’ in my head, it’s very tiring. In work interviews I take too much notice of the other people, their mannerisms, eye movements, tone of voice and most often, I just don’t like people. It’s not a judgement as such, I just don’t want to be near them. Is it worth trying to change that? What for? Etc.
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Loss of one parent in early life seems to create many people who are exceptionally driven to achieve. Great achievers are not likely to be stable though I think.
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I think we can only do the best with what we have;
I guess it’s trying to work out what I was becoming as a child, and recognising the traits and abilities I learned and putting them to full use. Not trying to change them, or become some other person that really, my brain tells me, isn’t completely possible. It’s being content with what I am, not trying to change into something I’m not – and I’m definitely not amongst the 50% (???where do they get this stuff??!) who are stable, ‘normal’.
What you were becoming as a child – talkative, vivacious, alive, (funny?) – hey how do you fancy joining the local drama group? Get a part as real villain, or an empty-headed flirt, or a duchess, or …?
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I don’t imagine I’ve replied as you might have imagined. But maybe there’s something in there for one if not both of us? I’ll post it and let it go!
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Oh can I say something about your reply to LoH please? About :Selfish, lazy people bring out this cold side of me – and why not? Why do you have to be ‘good’ to these people when they’re not being good to you? You don’t have to reciprocate with rudeness, but you can cut them off, turn the other cheek. If people don’t treat you well, I don’t agree with treating them better. We’re all equal. We have to do what matches our personal values: if someone robs me, I won’t rob them in return but I will want my property back and I will want to tell them exactly how I feel. These ‘weaknesses’ of yours, aren’t they simply part of being human, do they need correction, or even suppressing? What are they really? Being intolerant of idiots? (that’s not a weakness to me, it’s a survival strategy I mean to build on, seriously).
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WHO IS NUMBER SIX?
Well, I did not know if you would post to this thread at all--I thought maybe the quietest people would reply, maybe even some of the guests who are probably still feeling their way in this place. Your replies have got me thinking in many directions. I'm grateful for what you have said.
So, you are young inside? Me too. Aside from genetic immaturity, I think I am fourteen and 18. Fourteen is when my life fell apart-- parents' divorce, sister going out of control and ending up in foster care, best friend moving away, other best friends turning on me, and one really bad haircut. And a bad haircut is not insignificant when you're fourteen and nothing else is going right either. Eighteen is when I got pregnant. So, I got on a different road all at once, and not until around age 40 did I get the chance to pick up where I left off. So, I'm fairly young inside.
It sounds like you're quite young inside in some ways. I like that the digging and analytical part of you might come from that. You dig out of curiosity and interest. Newness. I like that for some reason.
I appreciate your take on how to be with those who are rude or otherwise mistreating me. It's related to me valuing myself I think.
Oh, statistics. I heard that most people who agree to participate in polls of any kind usually lie. Not me, of course. If I agree to participate in something I take it seriously. But if I'm the only honest one, well, then what good is a poll or survey? But I got my ideas of what works in society from looking at the past and noticing what usually seems to happen. Of course, old newspapers are never comprehensive. And people's memories are suspect. So, even though I think I'm onto something with my ideas, well, nobody knows the whole truth about real life. My sons are kind of quirky and off-beat. I've seen the looks people give them for spiked blue hair and raggedy clothes. I suppose society would say they are not stable or do not fit it. But I know my sons each have lots of friends, and work hard at their jobs, and contribute so much. Contribution=Stability? Maybe, maybe.
What was I becoming? Probably all the things you listed. I remember once going to try-outs for the school play. I was so excited at the very thought, that I could barely contain myself. But I lost my courage to actually read for a part. So, I joined stage crew instead and painted some of the background scenery and absorbed some of the "theater" that way. I really don't know why I couldn't take the last step and just read for a part. Maybe because I had no support, back-up, feedback from adults. Lacked confidence. Desire, I had plenty of. Maybe even a knack. I used to run for student council every year. I lost every year. But I vividly remember writing my speeches and feeling so comfortable up there on stage in front of the student body. Kids always complimented me on how loud and clear my speeches were! How funny! But I never was elected. Always a popular kid won instead.
You have listed some characteristics of yourself as a child. Serious, thoughtful, restrained, wary. Your description of yourself in job interviews, you seem very alert and discerning. Is it overwhelming? It seems like it. It also seems to me that a place or role could be found for such characteristics. I would never tell you to change a thing. I'm one who likes to see what people are really made of and unusual things can happen when a niche is found. My son is an artist. He has tried a lot of things. He had specific ideas that I thought might be too specific and lead to disappointment. But he was right. In high school someone gave him a bunch of silk screens. He wanted to silk screen T-shirts. How very specific. Well, he ended up doing just that for a small fashion design company in NYC for a few years. Gained some great experience that way. He loves tattoos. Now he has succeeded in being taken on as an apprentice in a really cool tattoo shop, that we have visited, and is on his way in a new direction. I suppose many people would not see that as fitting in or stable. But there is a whole culture now around tattooing. He is a part of something bigger than himself. He has taught me that it is okay to be yourself. I guess I already thought that on some level. It's that confidence thing.
And I thought I was so original with "I am number six" :lol: . I love this character from The Prisoner. I'm going to have to look him up!
PP
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My mom is an N. Am I guessing correctly that your mom is an N, too? If not, then you can probably disregard the rest of my post, because that is the assumption I am going on here. let me know if I am way off, and I will think on this some more. I am trying to see the similarities and differences in our stories and put it together with what I know about Ns. I think two N traits come to mind. 1) N's try to shape their kids into what they want to be, themselves.
2) N's either praise the child or devalue the child, depending on how the child fulfills #1.
I think the same thing was going on in both our stories, but with different results. Your mom wanted you to be popular, as she saw herself. You did not live up to her warped expectations, so she tore you down and devalued you. My mom saw herself as as so special that no one could possibly be so cool as to understand her and associate with her. She saw heself as a maverick. Very grandiose. Because I had no friends, somehow she convinced herself that I must be a misunderstood maverick like her (I did not buy into this romanticized image; I just felt lonely and pathetic, even secretly failing at being like her, but I didn't dare tell her that!). Because I lived up to her own self image in her eyes, I was a success. I was one of the few times in my life that she felt I lived up to her expectations. Even more depressing to me, because I felt I didn't.
That said, I think what your mom did to you must have hurt more than what my mom did to me. After all, approval is approval, no matter how warped it is. And at least I got some approval that day. Then again, I am not sure I would wish that kind of praise on anyone, either. So confusing. Not sure any of this makes sense.
I still have a lot to learn. Thanks again for your thoughtful thread. There are so many rich ideas here!
Hi IamNewtoMe,
I really am having a lot of trouble figuring out if Narcissism fits my mother. All along here, I have not been able to figure it out. Sometimes I think she was just incredibly immature in some ways. Sometimes I think I was so caught up in my own drama as a child that I didn't notice enough about her to remember the right kinds of details that would tell me now what I want to know. And nowadays, with this new knowledge of what narcissism is, I look at each present day encounter and think, is this really a symptom or am I reading too much into it? And maybe it's just that she has N-spots. She didn't have it all that easy at home growing up either.
Sometimes we have had some very interesting conversations and I can see that she thinks about the past a lot and tries to figure out why certain things just didn't work out too well. I don't think she necessarily has created a false self. She doesn't do many of the things I have seen on the lists and have also seen in someone who I strongly believe is a narcissist. She CAN be remarkably self-centered and unempathetic. She thinks things are funny which really are tragic. She definitely has some kind of problem with accepting me as a separate person with value. Also has somewhat shallow values at times.
She really was disappointed in me as a child and young adult. It was important to her that I be popular, and I was not. It was important that I reflect well on her or be like her. And I was not. I don't know. Maybe she is narcissistic but not disordered. Or maybe just has some characteristics. My husband would probably say she is N. He gets very upset with what he sees sometimes.
I was de-valued as a child. But it is only now, since being on my own for over 25 years, that I really chafe against some of the comments and criticisms that seem to come from out of nowhere. In fact, we have only lived in the same state, during that time, for just a few years. So, I suppose there were very few opportunities for that side of our relationship to even exist. She was mostly happy with me as a child if I was no trouble at all. So, I tried very hard not to be bothersome to my parents. Probably that is what kept the peace over the years.
I think I am the one who has to do more thinking on this. I do pay more attention now to how she treats me. But we still don't see each other all that much since she lives an hour away and works odd hours the way I do. Maybe every few months spend an afternoon or evening together. Most of the time it's not all that much fun for me.
I have often thought that maybe it was some kind of a gift that I was kind of ignored growing up. On some level I escaped the terrible mind games Ns can do on you. But I definitely was "trained" to be susceptible to their kind of poison. If my mother has some N in her, that would certainly explain a lot.
Thank you for bringing this up, IamNewtoMe. I keep skirting around the issue of my mother possibly being N. Usually when I'm avoiding a subject like this, there is a reason. It's a good thing this board exists. I just may find out all the secrets of the past!!!
Pennyplant
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Well your thread and all the wonderful insight on it made me feel warm and fuzzy too pennyplant. Thanks for sharing.
bean
You're welcome, Bean. It is my pleasure. (((Bean)))
PP
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Pennyplant,
What is my purpose with this particular thread? I want to learn what my natural approach to being in a group is. I want to learn what my role here is. I want to learn what my role here means.
Thank you for your gift, your true feelings and questions. I'm still reading, so much to take in. :)
I was number 5 (5th sibling) number six was my little brother and was 6yrs. old when he passed away. I could of been #6...scary as a child to wonder if they had wished I was #6. This was scary to say, thanks for giving me a place to say it out loud.
Brave, loving Pennyplant, (seasons)
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Best to trust that good gut of yours.'
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The girl who was targeted by the clique kept to a solitary orbit on the far edge of the playground before this happened, and kept even more to herself afterwards. The worst part is, the clique didn't do it as a group: each one came at her individually, spouted the leader's mean words, then ran back to the group, laughing. Truly brutal, just sickening. I tried to apologize for them when it was all over, to tell her what jerks they were, but she was so humilitated by then--everyone had seen and heard--she just ran away.
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If you would like to tell, I would be very interested to know more about your walkout, and how it helped lead to the path you seem happy about now? imho, these kind of experiences and journeys are a real joy to hear about. Warm fuzzies, and much inspiration.
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I had the good luck to be fired the day before I had a plane ticket to go to the beach, east coast, to hang with my family. Went out with the other ex-managers after the bomb dropped, hit happy hour, and wound up singing 'Take this Job and Shove it' at a karaoke bar filled with wildly appreciative Japanese businessmen and decided, full of sushi and umbrella drinks, it made perfect sense not to cash in the ticket and go on the trip anyway. While at the beach, I read the help wanted section of a big city newspaper exactly once, and, buried in all the techonology and nursing jobs, there was an ad for a job in a cool little city that could have been written just for me. Being deeply impractical, I sold a diamond ring, hired a moving man, and my (not-yet) H. and I drove 3,000 miles based on my absolute certainty the job was mine, and a shared feeling that we loved our family too much to live 3 time zones away. Got the job, my H. and I were married while we lived in that little city, and never looked back.
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Hope you can stand another hug? ((((((((Pennyplant)))))))
LightofHeart,
I think I would just love your Gramma. She sounds kind and practical. Just what I needed as a child.
You are right, for each girl to humiliate the outsider, one at a time, is so very cruel. She must have thought at the time that it would never end. Torture really. I bet she remembers to this day that you tried to make her feel better. It had to be the only thing that saved her that day. I vividly remember some kindnesses that people gave me during my terrible year of age fourteen. Those memories mean a lot to me.
I just knew there had to be an excellent reason for why that drunken idiot came into your life. My walking out story is less dramatic but people have patted me on the back for it.
I worked in a government office for five years. I knew the very first day something was a little off. The two other co-workers were very quiet that first day--I found out later they were very angry with the boss because she had forced out a third co-worker who they liked very much and that was how my job came to be available. They never held it against me though and befriended me. We are still friends to this day.
As we walked to our cars at the end of that first day, she praised me all up and down out of all proportion to anything I could possibly have accomplished on my first day at a new job. Now I know she was making me her new source of supply.
It was five years of ever-building pressure and stress. Loved my duties, grew to hate her. The turning point for me came when she decided to force out one of the other two employees, after 15 years of what seemed like a close friendship as well. She was relentless about it. One day I said, what does it really matter (the employee wanted to take some time off to go south as she had every year for a long time, boss didn't want to allow it) you have been friends all these years, just let her go. My boss replied, "L is no friend of mine." I was so stunned. I had not seen that coming. It became clear to me that for 15 years she had led this person to believe they were real friends but was only fooling her and using her all that time. This was something I had never encountered before.
From that point on everything she did or asked of me was a burden and I resented every minute spent in that office. She tried to win me over by asking for a promotion for me. I even helped fill out the paper work. I believed she was behind the idea. Then when it came down to it, she wrecked the promotion. Turned it into a job where I still had to do all the duties she wanted to dump on me but it wouldn't be management. I felt betrayed. She just couldn't handle the idea of me becoming management like her. Too much encroachment on her territory. After that, I lasted about a month.
One day I was especially impatient with her so she said, "Let's talk about this right now." I said, "That is a very good idea." Silly me, I thought she was actually going to listen to me. Should have known when she ordered me to "sit down" that listening was far from what she planned to do. As soon as I started to talk, she started to argue with me and twist my words. So, I got up and said, "I'm going home." She then realized she had pushed too far and started walking around in circles saying, "I wish we could talk about this," over and over again. I said, "There is nothing to talk about." I walked out at 9 am. Only came back to bring in my letter of resignation and get my things.
Later on I found out she told people I had quit to take a job with my town government. That was a lie of course, but people believed it because I did indeed have a small part-time job with my town. It pays $35 a month. It is mostly volunteer. But people wondered, and she certainly couldn't tell them she drove me out with her unreasonable behavior.
The rest of my story, why I believe it was good that I left there, has to do with all the jobs I DIDN'T get which caused me to end up working where I do now. I have met people there who have spoken to the different parts of myself that have been buried all my life by voicelessness. Some of it has been very painful. But all of it important and useful. Altogether there were probably six or seven jobs I tried to get and not a one of them worked the way I might have expected them to. One of them I was hired for but turned down because I had accepted the first job I was offered. That one turned out to be the worst job possible and I quit after two weeks and begged to come back to where I am now even though it was temporary at the time and I had gladly quit this place to take what seemed like a sure bet. It just seems like I'm supposed to be where I am now even though I have had some terrible rough patches to get through.
I am so glad for how your situation worked out. And thanks for another hug. I can definitely stand it :) . (((LoH)))
PP
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I was number 5 (5th sibling) number six was my little brother and was 6yrs. old when he passed away. I could of been #6...scary as a child to wonder if they had wished I was #6. This was scary to say, thanks for giving me a place to say it out loud.
Seasons, I had hoped that people would feel free to say what is dear to them here. This story of you and your little brother breaks my heart.
If you were right here, I would hug you. (((seasons)))
PP
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to humiliate the outsider, one at a time, is so very cruel. She must have thought at the time that it would never end. Torture really
this is what I experienced, from age 6 through about 14.
:cry:
hops
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this is what I experienced, from age 6 through about 14.
:cry:
hops
I am so sorry for little hops. It was so unfair and cruel and for such a long time.
(((little hops)))
PP
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Thanks, ((((PP)))).
It's given me gifts too in a weird way.
I love my friends very much and feel such huge gratitude!
(Guess when you don't have it for a long time, that happens.)
Thanks for the kindness. Little Hops is grateful!
Hops