Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: adrift on July 20, 2006, 06:47:43 PM
-
Sorry this is soooo long.
Thus far I've avoided this subject because it's so complex I don't think I can get it across very well. DD1 (dear daughter #1) is our oldest child (19) and has been difficult since infancy, no kidding. You know how the docs tell you to put them in the crib and they'll eventually go to sleep???? Not her. Before the age of 1 she would stand in her crib and jerk back and forth on the sides and scream bloody murder for up to an hour. I'm talking about screaming until I was seriously worried she was gonna rupture something, really. Blood red face, crying and screaming so hard she'd be snubbing and couldn't breath. Then we tried the technique of going in every 10 minutes to reassure her, blah, blah, blah----nothing worked. At night I would rock her to sleep, and she would fight going to sleep, and then gently ease her into her crib and the second she was on the mattress she'd begin to scream and wouldn't stop until I rocked her again. Many, many sleepless nights (and yes, I'd get angry too). By the age of 3 I HAD to put her in a program for half days (even though I was staying home) because she was about to drive me over the edge. Non-stop temper tantrums, screaming, crying and only happy if everything in the universe was her way. By age 5 I had her at a psychiatrist and he agreed she was ADD and that she "had some problems" but before those could be investigated, my DH (dear hubby--also her dad) put a stop to it and said there wasn't anything wrong with her except she was spoiled. I was raised "spare the rod and spoil the child" but spankings never phased her, she was definant no matter what. Time outs didn't work, sending her to her room only resulted in her trashing her room and escalating her anger. Reasoning, bribing,,,,,nothing worked. She's ALWAYS had to have the last word, even when she was very young. Getting her to stop her verbal barage has always been a battle. It's not like she wasn't allowed to express herself or blow off a little steam, but we're talking ranting, raving, screaming non-stop barages over minor things, such as her sister went into her room again. Finally, around the age of 10, I resorted to telling her she was gonna GET a lick (with a belt) for every word. Now I wouldn't say this until she'd ranted for what should have been enough time and HAD FULLY expressed her displeasure. Occassionally this would shut her up, but often she'd just keep on ranting while I counted the words and then even while I was spanking her she'd be screaming at me at the top of her lungs, "I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU"........... :cry:
By the time she turned 15, she was going places with her friends and woe on me if I told her no. She would throw a fit, accuse me of being unfair, yell that all the other kids got to have a life and do this and that but that she wasn't allowed to do anything. When we made her do chores (not many, but help with setting and clearing the table, help with laundry, watch her younger brother and sister while I did chores) all we heard nonstop was how unfair we were and that none of her other friends "were treated like slaves", blah, blah, blah...........All this while she was enjoying a private school education, cheerleading, had the option of playing any sports she wanted, got a car at 16-----she never wanted for anything but wasn't lavished with material good either. Yes, her best friend was a spoiled brat who WAS LAVISHED and who never had to lift her finger, but there were other kids she knew who had responsiblities but she only saw that her life was crap and unfair. :shock: :shock: :shock:
When she was 16 I was so worn down with 16 years of her tantrums and manipulating (she's a master manipulator and plays fast and loose with the truth) that I just began to give in more and more to her demands to go here and there and have this and that. For most of her life I felt her dad was too hard on her so I would intervene and basically left him out of the decision making with her because I felt he didn't understand her (I would now say this was a BIG MISTAKE!). Her friends and going places with her friends became the most important things in her life and I'll never forget one night when we had told her no, she couldn't go somewhere because we thought it was too late and not safe to be on the road and she screamed at us and said that she'd "rather die with her friends than be with us". :shock: :shock:
She moved out last August for college and our homelife has gotten so much more pleasant :D She never comes home and every time she does, it's hell to pay. She didn't do well her first year of college (has a 2.0) and has ended up totally hating her one time best friend (I told her to not room with her friends but she wouldn't listen) So she lost her scholarships and now is working part time (she decided to stay in college town during the summer rather than come home because our home town "sucks" and she hates it here) in college town waiting for the next semester to begin. DH is paying through the nose for her to live away this summer, but he'd rather pay it than have her here. I feel the same way. Sometime after she moved out last August, I began to see her more clearly and realized that DH has been more right about her than I would allow myself to see and he now agrees that he should have let her go to that psychiatrist when she was young. Sometime around last September I cut myself out of any decision making in regards to DD1. She never had enough money and would confuse the facts until she had me convinced she was due more money and when DH would prove her wrong and I saw it myself on paper I knew then she had played me for a fool long enough and I turned it all over to DH---which she didn't/doesn't like at all. She can't manipulate him or fool him about anything.
Last night she came home to spend the night for the first time in months (college town is only about 45 minutes away) and the first time to visit in about 6 weeks and it ended up with screaming, yelling, crying (on her part) until about 3 a.m. Here's her main complaint and the one she's had for many, many years---she hates her sister. DD2 is 5 years younger and was very ill as an infant and was treated more delicately then, but DD1 believes DD2 is still treated more favorably and that simply isn't so. DD2 is a loving, caring, considerate child ---- the total opposite of DD1 basically. DD1 thinks DD2's behaviour is all about sucking up to us and pulling the wool over our eyes and that actually DD2 is mean and sneaky. Yes, there have been plenty of times DD2 has done little things to annoy DD1 (such as going into DD1's bedroom) but she hasn't done anything that she didn't learn from DD1. Actually, DD1 is the mean, sneaky one. There's been more than once that DD1 has physically hurt DD2 (pulling hair, twisting her wrists, hitting her her, pushing her down) and then threatened her if she told us. Sometimes I'd witness the behaviour and punish DD1 other times we'd only find out about all this much later. And of course when DD1 was confronted, she would go ballistic and scream it wasn't like that and that DD2 had deserved it and that we always take DD2's side, blah, blah, blah........
Last night, DD1 blew up at DD2 because, DD2 #1 asked DD1 when she started liking mushrooms on her pizza, (DD1 says she doesn't like to be quizzed constantly by DD2) , #2 DD2 made a joking remark that DD1 does lots of things we don't know about and then, #3, DD2 wanted to watch the bloopers on her movie and DD1 said in an ugly tone, "Why don't you go watch it in your room" and something else I can't remember and when DD2 was about to cry, DD1 said, "Yeah, cry, cry, go ahead and cry" in a hatefu, l taunting manner. Then she went on to tell DD2 that she "wasn't normal" and that there was something wrong with her. Here I stepped in and calmly told DD1 that she wasn't the adult and that she didn't send DD2 to her room and that she wasn't allowed to talk to her like that. THEN poop hit the fan. About that time DH walked in from work and from 12am to 3 am the screaming, crying and etc....went on. (DD2 and DS were sent to bed before all hell broke lose, but they could hear every word) I only participated and stayed in the room until 1:30 am when she blew up at me in a horribly ugly manner because I didn't remember she had been home briefly one day last week (she was here about 2 hours to get some paper work) and as soon as DH reminded me about her trip home I said, "Oh, yeah, I forgot" and DD1 went ballistic and I went to bed. Up until a year ago I wouldn't have let DH be the one in charge of dealing with her and I would have tried to take her side as much as possible , but no more. I've had her on zoloft in the past, but she quit taking it. Then I got her on Cymbalta, but she quit taking it. I've begged her to go to counseling and got her set up with a therapist, but she wouldn't/won't go. I've catered to her in the past because I felt she has a problem and I was trying to help her........... :roll: and she just used me. She doesn't care about anyone's feelings, although she says she does. She has no gratitude, although she says she does, she has NO RESPECT for us, although she says she does.
Her main complaint last night?? That DD2 has always been treated differently and that she hates her for that, that we don't see through DD2's evil ways, that when she, DD1, comes home we don't act excited enough and that the last time she was here I took a shower (I'd been working in the yard when she got here and was yucky) and that when she comes home I don't spend enough time with her and that she hates it that DD2 and I have gotten closer. ANd she hates her sister, hates her. She's even told DD2 before (I was there and heard it) that she wished she was dead (pretty mean to say to a child that nearly died and has a genetic disorder that has resulted in learning problems and glaucoma in both eyes) and has told her, and us, more than once that she hates us.
Our DS has Down Sydrome and DD1 loves him to death, so it isn't DD2's genetic differences that upset her. And no, DD2 doesn't look different or funny, she looks perfectly normal so it isn't an issue of embarassment for DD1.
DD1 was calm when she left this morning, just as she always is a few hours after a main episode like this. But nothing has changed, it never does. I don't know why I ever want her to come home, DD2 and I have to walk on eggshells and still she finds something to explode about.
As for drug usage, we secretly had her tested back in November (dr. is good friend of ours and he did a urine test under false pretences, results did not go in her chart) and it tested positive for pot and I know she's smoked it since then although she says she's not doing it now. We've threatened to have a full panel drug test done, but from watching her eyes, weight and complexion, I don't think there's anything else going on with drugs. OH, and I got on her FACEBOOK account a few months ago and was appalled at her language and some of the things she said. In most of the postings, she had the worst language of anyone. DH and I confronted her about that and it wasn't pretty.
ANd it's not just us she can't get a long with. She's getting better at getting a long with her peers, but she has resentment towards most adults. To paint you a picture, DD1 doesn't dress like a ho, doesn't have any tatoos, only has ear lobes pierced-nothing else, doesn't wear lots of mak-up. (no offense to anyone with tatoos or multiple piercings--just giving some info here) isn't into gothic or heavy metal---she's basically looks like a good kid with leanings toward being conservative,,,, of course I don't see her that often so exactly how she does when she's not home I can't say.
Obviously she has never been able to self-soothe and has anger issues. I think she has trouble also with intimacy. Should I make us all go to family counseling??? At the rate this is going, we'll never be able to have a relationship with her because she has so much anger towards us and her sister. I know she'll hate going to counseling and knowing her she won't cooperate and it'll just be a waste of money.
AS for boyfriends, she's choosy but once she picks one they end up treating her like crap in no time and yet she hangs on and lets them mistreat her for months , until she's such a basket case she's about out of her mind. She picks guys that make my emtional radar sound off, but I keep my mouth shut, unless she asks. She picks guys who play some of the same games with her that she plays with us---lying, manipulating, accusing, ................
If you've been able to read this far, I hope some of you have some insight. Anything at all would be appreciated.
Adrift
-
Dear Adrift,
No problem reading the whole thing. Your daughter reminds me so much of my sister, who is one year younger than me. It is amazing how one little girl can wreak havoc on a family. Whatever the cause of the problems, the results have to be quite stressful and damaging to the rest of you.
There is so much going on here. I think your idea for family counseling is a wise one. To be honest, I doubt that DD1 will participate but maybe that is a good thing. It's time that the family stop revolving around this one person and have a chance to heal themselves. She may find her way to getting help at some point in the future. My sister finally gave in and got therapy last year. She was 43 at that time. It took a very long time for her to admit she could use help. Her son becoming estranged from her was rock bottom for her. Who knows what it will be for your daughter? I just think that family therapy will be helpful to you guys who have had to deal with this for so long.
My sister left our home at about age 13 or 14 (entered foster care system). It was so peaceful for the first time in so long that I thought for years it was a good thing that the family basically flew apart (my father left at about the same time--my mother didn't want to be married to him anymore). It took a very long time for me to realize that the damage had been done and that removing the source of the stress and difficulties didn't change that little fact. So, that's why I'm saying, get therapy for the rest of you. Help each other heal. DD1 will probably have to find her own path since she doesn't accept anyone else's ideas.
I'm glad you shared this story. It has to be really hard for you to deal with this all these years. You might be so used to it, it doesn't seem as stressful as it is. My whole childhood with a sister like that was nearly unrelenting pressure. I was so used to it, I thought that was just how being alive felt. She was (is) the younger sister, so she hated me for being born first, genuinely resented that. No one could do enough for her to make up for that injustice. I don't know how she came up with that as her major problem in life. It's like being mad at the sky for being blue.
Hang in there, Adrift. You did your very best with her.
Love, Pennyplant
-
Pennyplant,
Sorry you had to go through that. I know what you mean aboutthe craziness seeming normal, and then I realize how well DD2 and DS get along (there's 5 years between them too) and I notice other children actually being nice to their parents and liking their parents and at least nicely tolerating their siblings and it drives home the problem DD1 (we) have. Dd2 and DS treat us with respect, they love us, they enjoy being with us----and DD1 has been wanting to be away from us for forever and basically since the age of 15 has spent as little time with us as she could. Someone else has said to me that perhaps DD1 has ODD (oppositional defiant disorder) which I've already wondered about greatly. Would you believe, that when she was 3 and I put her in this wonderful half-day program (it was laid back, but they still did fun stuff) and I would pick her up and on the way home I'd try to have a conversation and it'd go like this.
Me "Did you have fun?"
Her "Yeah"
Silence
Me "What did y'all do today?"
Her "Nothing"
Silence
Me, "Did y'all sing any songs?" ---me knowing perfectly well that they did cuz I would chat with her teacher some days
Her, "I dunno"
Silence
Me, "Did y'all color or draw?"----again, I had a pretty good idea what they did
Her, "I dunno"
It wasn't that she didn't like the kindergarten, she did, she just didn't want to talk to me, she would look out the window and one day when I nicely asked her if something was wrong she said she had a headache because she was hungry and that was why she wasn't talking. So I started bringing a snack along for the ride home. Didn't help one bit :roll: I so wanted a close relationship with her and have continued to crave that all her life.
She had me jumping through hoops at an early age. Course then I'd get mad after a while about how she acted and I'd fuss and then she's be nice for how ever long she thought it would take to get out of hot water. That is behaviour she continues to this day, being fakely nice when she knows she finally pushed too far, but she never makes any real changes.
Good news is that DD2 and I have become close since DD1 has left. Before I was constantly having to referee between them and DD1 was never satisfied unless DD2 was in trouble for something. Now, DD2 and I have a wonderful relationship, she's sweet (always has been) and fun (always has been) and loving and caring and SHE LIKES/LOVES ME! Imagine that! So I guess I've got the relationship with DD2 that I tried so hard to have with DD1. Maybe I tried too hard with DD1?? Oh, and DS (who had Down Syndrome) is an absolute joy! So except for the constant stress DD1 keeps stuff in (like the phone bill which came in today), our family is pretty good right now. I'm sure DD1 will never move back home and that's a good thing, sad but good.
I"m also the one who posted about "Anger as a habit" and I did have anger issues for years and I'm sure that negatively affected her and our relationship, and I've blamed myself for years for her being the way she is and I'm sure I'm at fault in plenty of ways, but still,,,,her core being is one of defiance and only she can change that. ANd I've talked to her many times about me/her/us and I've apologized for things I've done and I've made good progess in myself, so I would think that some of that would help or go in the plus column, but none of it makes any difference. Last night she actually said in a really hateful voice, "I know, I'm the first and you made all your mistakes with me and now with DD2 you're different parents and act like she's perfect and like I'm crap" I would have given my eye teeth for my mom to ever have apologized for one thing she did to me or to have even admitted she was human--but my daughter uses my apologies against me. This isn't a pity party, hope it doesn't sound like one. What it is, is one totally exasperated parent.
Thanks for y'alls perspectives and insight. Thanks for listening :)
Adrift
-
Should I make us all go to family counseling???
no one can really make anyone do anything, adrift
( spoken in the most gentle voice I know how )
-
uhm. She sounds like a pretty normal child and teenager, up until the point of being 18 (where she then sounds like an adult) to me.
Maybe she's been scapegoated in the family? A child like this didn't grow up in a vacuum...that's all.
Therapy would probably be helpful, but not for her.
pb
-
Penelope, this behaviour sounds normal to you??? Not to me, not at all. And she hasn't been scapegoated.
Adrift
-
It sounds eerily like my own story/family life. I am now divorced from my kids' dad, but basically the same story. Child #1 came along (a girl) and was the apple of our eye, although from the beginning not an easy child. Beautiful, loving the center of attention, but also would throw tantrums when not getting her way, etc. Charming and absolutely gorgeous. At the age of 8, her little brother came along. Boy did she hate that. And he was (and still is) an angel. In looks and behavior. So, most of the attention shifted from her to him.
BUT we also had the interesting mother/father/daughter dynamic that you describe. I wonder if yours originates the same way mine did? Father (kids' father) has many N characteristics, and I grew up with a mother who did not protect me in my family of origin (abusive father). So, whenever anything resembling abuse happens between my kids' dad and them, I step in as the VERY protective lioness mother, not letting anyone or anything do anything to my babies that was done to me. So, the dynamic develops that the dad is outside this little triangle. Makes for lots of fights and misunderstandings. And boundary crossing, big time.
It would greatly help your family to get counseling and learn the dynamics that are happening that are unhealthy. It's not as important to realize the origins (though that helps) but the boundary stuff alone will help you all deal with each other better in the future.
I know it's frustrating going through it. Sounds like you are getting a clearer picture of what's happening. A counselor can really help you take a step back and recognize what's going on.
K.
-
Hi, Adrift.
As I was reading the description of DD#1, I was reminded of a situation I encountered when I was working at an elementary/middle school. This child had several neurological issues, some of them were not definitive because the medical technology at the time did not know how to diagnose them. The only description of this child's behavior that came to my mind, each time I saw him, was "Tasmanian Devil" from the Looney Toons cartoons that I used to watch as a child. No one knew from one second to the next what might set him off until he started ripping things off the walls and throwing them at whoever was within range!
What made it more difficult for the school's staff was that every time we tried to address this out of control behavior, his mother would scream lawsuit and act as if it was an insult to HER! This kid even went so far as to send a teacher to the Emergency Room with a ripped open lip because she dared say the word "No" to him and the mother's reaction was "How dare you say NO to MY child!" as if we were also saying NO to her! Things finally came to a head when it was time for this kid to apply for enrollment at the nearby high school. His behaviors had not improved, in fact, they were worse. Security was being called every day. He was physically bigger than many of the school staff by this point and the high school administrators determined that they could not meet this kid's special needs. His mother kept on screaming "law suit" but she didn't win her case. At times, we couldn't help but wonder which was worse...dealing with the kid's behaviors or dealing with the mother's behaviors. The few times I encountered her gave me the impression that she was deep into denial as well as taking everything the school staff were telling her as a personal insult/attack. At that time, I was not aware of narcissistic disorders. (I've since retired from that educational system and decided to go back to school myself.)
Your child's doctor may have sensed something was wrong back then but may not have had the technological wherewithal to run the diagnostics that are available today. At this point, DD#1 may have to "hit bottom" before she decides to get help. In the meantime, Tough Love is the best you can do for her since she is now an adult. Maybe something similar to Al-Anon (detaching with love) could help work through what you're feeling. Just MHO for what it's worth.
Bones
-
Bones, What a terrible situation for the kid and mom you described. I taught school for awhile myself and while I never encountered anything of the magnitude you've described, I was continually shocked by the number of parents who insisted that their kids were never wrong/at fault, regardless of the situation or evidence. I mentioned that DD1 has anger towards other adults, which is true, what I didn't add but should have is that she covers it well when she's with them (at work, at school, etc...) but it boils inside of her and then either I or her friends get to hear the long rampage. She used to confide in me reguarly (and she was always mad at someone about something) , but now she mostly tells her friends her problems which I guess is good for my ulcer. :? And putting distance between us is part of her growing up. She has gotten better at picking and keeping friends, so that is progress. Bones, it's funny you said she'll have to "hit bottom" because that is exactly what her dad and I discuss between ourselves.
I think someone else on here mentioned that DD1's behaviour the other night got her attention, and that is true. I told DH after she left the next day, I said, "Do you realize that this is how it always goes, and has for years and years, and then she gets hours of attention because she carries on and on?" So maybe some of this is her way of getting the amount of attention she needs (or thinks she needs) although whenever I offer to do stuff with her (like come over to college town and take her out to eat) she usually has plans. She doesn't have time for me or us when we offer, it all has to be on her timetable and her terms.
Dandylife, somethings you said struck home. My father was abusive and my mother just let him be that way. She never took my side or defended me and often actually egged it on. I realized some time back, that whenever DH would begin to fuss at the kids or reprimand them (he never spanks them) it's like I'm shot back in time to being that little girl again and I can't stand it---well, actually I'm learning how to stand it. If I'd known all this years ago and been able to deal with it then, then I wouldn't have intervened between DH and DD1 and wouldn't have basically taken on raising her myself. AND DH and I wouldn't have had to fight about my intervening. Isn't it amazing how pervasive a screwed up childhood becomes?? How it enters every area of our adult lives and leads us to make wrong decisions?? ANd yes, a triange developed and it wasn't healthy.
To whoever on this board introduced the "Triangulation" thread, I want to say thank you, again. That one thread and the subsequent research I did on the Karpman Triangle has probably helped me as much as anything. THank you, thank you, thank you. ANd thanks to all of you who take the time to write and help me with my issues. Maybe one day I'll be more insightful and be able to help y'all.
Adrift
-
Bones, What a terrible situation for the kid and mom you described. I taught school for awhile myself and while I never encountered anything of the magnitude you've described, I was continually shocked by the number of parents who insisted that their kids were never wrong/at fault, regardless of the situation or evidence. I mentioned that DD1 has anger towards other adults, which is true, what I didn't add but should have is that she covers it well when she's with them (at work, at school, etc...) but it boils inside of her and then either I or her friends get to hear the long rampage. She used to confide in me reguarly (and she was always mad at someone about something) , but now she mostly tells her friends her problems which I guess is good for my ulcer. :? And putting distance between us is part of her growing up. She has gotten better at picking and keeping friends, so that is progress. Bones, it's funny you said she'll have to "hit bottom" because that is exactly what her dad and I discuss between ourselves.
I think someone else on here mentioned that DD1's behaviour the other night got her attention, and that is true. I told DH after she left the next day, I said, "Do you realize that this is how it always goes, and has for years and years, and then she gets hours of attention because she carries on and on?" So maybe some of this is her way of getting the amount of attention she needs (or thinks she needs) although whenever I offer to do stuff with her (like come over to college town and take her out to eat) she usually has plans. She doesn't have time for me or us when we offer, it all has to be on her timetable and her terms.
Dandylife, somethings you said struck home. My father was abusive and my mother just let him be that way. She never took my side or defended me and often actually egged it on. I realized some time back, that whenever DH would begin to fuss at the kids or reprimand them (he never spanks them) it's like I'm shot back in time to being that little girl again and I can't stand it---well, actually I'm learning how to stand it. If I'd known all this years ago and been able to deal with it then, then I wouldn't have intervened between DH and DD1 and wouldn't have basically taken on raising her myself. AND DH and I wouldn't have had to fight about my intervening. Isn't it amazing how pervasive a screwed up childhood becomes?? How it enters every area of our adult lives and leads us to make wrong decisions?? ANd yes, a triange developed and it wasn't healthy.
To whoever on this board introduced the "Triangulation" thread, I want to say thank you, again. That one thread and the subsequent research I did on the Karpman Triangle has probably helped me as much as anything. THank you, thank you, thank you. ANd thanks to all of you who take the time to write and help me with my issues. Maybe one day I'll be more insightful and be able to help y'all.
Adrift
Thanks, Adrift. Looks like great minds think alike! :D
I'm guessing that one of these days, DD#1's temper is going to exhibit itself at the wrong time at the wrong person and no one will be able to bail her out of the mess she got herself into. That happened to a former co-worker of mine who attempted to park her car illegally in front of a police officer!!! :shock: The officer explained to her about the parking laws and that she is not allowed to park her car where she attempted to leave it. Her response was to throw a soda pop bottle at him!! :shock: :shock: After her arrest, she attempted to whine at work about this "mean police officer" who dared tell her where she could and could not park her car (as if traffic laws do not apply to her) and tried to garner sympathy from me. I was blunt and told her (1) traffic laws apply to every one, even to her "The Princess" and (2) after he slapped the cuffs on her, did she learn anything yet? She pouted the rest of the day and never spoke to me again (which was fine).
Bones
-
hi adrift,
I don't know you, but from what you've described, you are an angry person and your daughter has been "difficult." I find this quite interesting as it's clear from reading you that you believe the problem lies with your daughter, and if she would just "behave" all the problems in your family would go away. This is so classic in dysfunctional families, that someone is to blame (the scapegoat) for all the families problems. So you daughter is playing that role to the T - which is why I say she sounds pretty "normal" to me. Have you thought of doing a little research? Becoming Attached by Robert Karen is a good book that goes in depth into why children become "difficult." Pretty good stuff. An interesting read, and you'll be appalled to find out it has to do with their Mother, primarily. So blaming your daughter for the way she is is a little silly, IMHO.
All children are difficult in different ways. Mothers, more so.
If you wanted to fix this problem, you could, that's all. But it starts with you and a true desire to fix it - not blame. And that's what I've seen you doing to your daughter in your description.
She'll probably be fine - most scapegoats turn out OK because the reason they're so angry is they see the true dysfunction in the family and they don't buy into it. They escape.
Why are you so worried about her, her friends, her - if she was an employee of yours, it sure feel like you were micromanaging her, instead of just letting her BE. If you loved her, you'd love her the way she is -difficult and all. If you don't love her, then there's probably a reason and it has to do with you growing up in an abusive family yourself, and not having been taught the capacity to love. But you could learn this...if you wanted to.
Sorry, probably not the response you wanted to hear, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for unsympathetic mothers. We are not all ready to be mothers, and deal with "difficult" children in the best way possible. Hence, people come out all different in the end. But it's no single person or events fault - certainly not the child's. I think you've oversimplified that a bit.
pb
-
a few months ago when I was having yet more tantrum problems with my son ( they still surface periodically ) Hopalong suggested I might be oversimplifying his recovery from everything which has happened to our family, and pointed out that I need to be open-minded as to how long it's going to need.
I don't think good mother/ bad mother is helpful- we all do both. I don't know that I'm a good mother, I think I am a 'good enough' mother;
my son thinks I'm barely adequate quote/unquote " and that goes for Dad too!" :)
I do always apologise to my son for the things I do wrong- not just because I want to set things right with us, but as an example, several people in my family cannot apologise and would say anything rather than "sorry"... :(
-
Penelope, I'll gladly read the book you suggested and if you read my posts carefully you'll see that I've already done lots of research and am doing more. I wonder if you have children since you think it's "normal" for a child to constantly hate her sibling, hate her parents and rather "die with her friends", show blatant disrespect for parental authority and difficulty getting along in the world. Then again, in some circles that may be "normal" behaviour, but we live in a conservative, Christian area (the Bible Belt actually) where everyone still says "yes sir" and "yes ma'am" to their elders, where respect is still very much in vogue, where traditional family values are honored and practiced. This was how she was raised and this is what we consider acceptable behaviour---not ranting, screaming, cursing, door slamming, peeling off in her car, telling her sister she hates her, telling her sister she wished she had died, physcially abusing her sister and threatening her if she told (which DD2 never did until months later),
Before I had kids, I would have totally pointed the finger at the parents, got to be the parents fault, got to be. Right? Then I had kids, 3 of them and I've learned that no two kids are alike and that try as parents might, some kids are difficult. Am I a perfect mother? Nope. Have I had anger issues? Yes. Did I use my DD1 as my "whipping boy" or scapegoat? Nope. Did I bend over backwards (an at this point I would say I actually tried too hard) to please her/help her/ show her love and support? Yep! Should she be allowed to come in this home and berate her sister and cause havoc? No, she's 19 and that behaviour is not acceptable. Is DD2 perfect? No, and she gets disciplined when necessary, is DS perfect? no he isn't and even though he has Down Syndrome, we expect him to behave to the ability he is capable.
My dad was 1 of 8 kids and I can tell you that one of those kids (not my dad) turned out to be a mean, abusive alcoholic and 2 of the other brothers became church deacons. 1 of my dad's sisters had to go through years of ECT for mental illness, the other sister is rock solid, emotionally and physically. I do believe that birth order and other factors, including parents, affect children, there is nurture and there is nature. How nurture and nature work themselves out in each child is kind of a toss up.
Penelope, you say I micro manage my DD1. Gee, that would seem hard to do when she lives away, comes home about once a month maybe, we pay for her car, her phone, her apartment, her tuition, and she lives as she pleases. The only requirement is that she work to pay for her gas and food. So am I micromanaging to expect her to be nice to us when she does come home?
Adrift
-
Yes, I think the feelings are all normal. They're human feelings and your daughter is human. Her acting out is very human and is a normal reaction to what she's been through. Your anger is also a normal reaction to the abuse you've been through. A therapist could help you with all this, but the desire for change comes from within.
I have had a lot of anger in the past, I know, I've been there, and I have an abusive mother and father. You can make a choice for yourself and your family, a therapist is a great idea for you. But hoping (or instructing) your daughter to go, isn't do anything for your relationship with her, I'd bet.
Not here to judge, I don't think it's my place. You seem to be stuck, that's all. Stuck in anger and blaming. Not saying I haven't been there, I certainly have. But to heal from that, you got to admit some stuff to yourself - like maybe you weren't the perfect mother. And that's OK too, you're human afterall.
I feel you getting defensive so I don't think I'll respond more as it's not my place.
pb
-
hi suggare, how ya doing? Feeling OK? Are you feeling voiceless cause I noticed you didn't post anything.
pb
-
probably chose my words wrong sugarre, sorry. I apologize, I meant to help but sometimes I'm not the best at communicating.
I've noticed in the course of my own therapy that everything focuses on my relationship with my parents, that's all. They play a huge part in who I am, why I am, I believe. That's my bias.
Even if your child did turn out diffucult and it was your fault (which I don't think it could be 100%, but yeah I think the parents have an influence), would that be so horrible? How can anyone fix a problem they're not even willing to admit? I sensed adrift wanted to "fix" something, so I offered what I know. Sorry if it came across mean. not my intent.
I don't know how Therapist's do it, really. They have a way of making you see hard things like this, without making people defensive. Else, why would anyone go back?
pb
-
Sugarre,
I don't think I said it was all the parent's fault, if so that's not what I meant. I was preparing (trying to anyway) adrift for the mental health profession, which does believe I think that parents have a lot to do with their child's behavior. They are the biggest influence in a child's life So if she's planning on going to family counseling, she could be prepared for that by possibly reading a few books. And I suggested one - but based on her words (and I'm getting a sense from reading yours too) I suspected she might not process it well. It's hard stuff to hear.
Counseling is a gift you give yourself. To break free from a dysfunctional past. It's not a punishment. If you're thinking of sending your child or family to counseling in order to get them to shape up, maybe you've been watching too many old timey movies (sounds very Pavlov, behaviorist). :shock: Therapy is about forming a loving relationship with yourself. If you do that, you'll be amazed about what you'll discover about others.
OK, now I'm really exiting. But I am curious how one stops the cycle of violence by sending one's children to counseling. I see these poor kids in my T's office all the time. The parents drop them off for their "fix." I look at these kids and think - they look real sweet and healthy to me. Maybe they need more attention. I wonder how I'd be as a parent, that's for sure. But no, I don't have kids or plan to. take care
Here's a pretty good description of abuse as it describes some of the more subtle forms.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/verbal_emotional_abuse/110026
Abusers exploit, lie, insult, demean, ignore (the "silent treatment"), manipulate, and control.
There are many ways to abuse. To love too much is to abuse. It is tantamount to treating someone as an extension, an object, or an instrument of gratification. To be over-protective, not to respect privacy, to be brutally honest, with a sadistic sense of humour, or consistently tactless – is to abuse.
To expect too much, to denigrate, to ignore – are all modes of abuse. There is physical abuse, verbal abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse. The list is long. Most abusers abuse surreptitiously. They are "stealth abusers". You have to actually live with one in order to witness the abuse.
There are three important categories of abuse:
Overt Abuse
The open and explicit abuse of another person. Threatening, coercing, beating, lying, berating, demeaning, chastising, insulting, humiliating, exploiting, ignoring ("silent treatment"), devaluing, unceremoniously discarding, verbal abuse, physical abuse and sexual abuse are all forms of overt abuse.
Covert or Controlling Abuse
Abuse is almost entirely about control. It is often a primitive and immature reaction to life circumstances in which the abuser (usually in his childhood) was rendered helpless. It is about re-exerting one's identity, re-establishing predictability, mastering the environment – human and physical.
The bulk of abusive behaviours can be traced to this panicky reaction to the remote potential for loss of control. Many abusers are hypochondriacs (and difficult patients) because they are afraid to lose control over their body, its looks and its proper functioning. They are obsessive-compulsive in an effort to subdue their physical habitat and render it foreseeable. They stalk people and harass them as a means of "being in touch" – another form of control.
To the abuser, nothing exists outside himself. Meaningful others are extensions, internal, assimilated, objects – not external ones. Thus, losing control over a significant other – is equivalent to losing control of a limb, or of one's brain. It is terrifying.
Independent or disobedient people evoke in the abuser the realization that something is wrong with his worldview, that he is not the centre of the world or its cause and that he cannot control what, to him, are internal representations.
To the abuser, losing control means going insane. Because other people are mere elements in the abuser's mind – being unable to manipulate them literally means losing it (his mind). Imagine, if you suddenly were to find out that you cannot manipulate your memories or control your thoughts... Nightmarish!
-
I was neglected and abused as a child, like many people here, and it lead me into an abusive and difficult marriage and other relationship corners. But also into a creative place and I have had a very happy life in other ways.
I don't blame my parents, they were a product of their own stulted environment and upbringing, what I did resent was that I needed something else for myself and they couldn't accept it. And my mother was always up in the moral high ground, which as the years passed became pure hypocrisy; she saw herself completely differently than everyone else did, and my father was very weak and just accepted her dictating. They were both very unsupportive of my sensitivities and bipolar illness, though I can remember clearly starting to present with that around age 7 or 8.
But they didn't 'believe' in mental illness or psychology so they blanked it. My mother was quite mentally ill herself by the time I was a teenager, but she never sought help and became a spiritualist, an alcoholic and very heavy smoker. She 'ran away' when I was 16 and made a new life, I rarely saw her after that and she died when she was 50.
I was rarely hit- I threw the hugest tantrums for hours on the times that I was; maybe that's why I understand my son's tantrums more now, I don't know. I have of course slapped him sometimes, as most parents do, but he responded exactly as I did, with extreme rage and I stopped.
Once I saw a series of letters to the BBC about drug addicted teens, one stood out, it was from a man who said 'if your kids have problems it's time for you to take a long hard look in the mirror'.
I think since I did therapy and learned to manage my own life and illness it has taken a shadow off my whole family, it does have a knock-on effect with everyone around you.
This summer has been really good progress with my son, I cancelled activities and trips pretty much and we've been hanging out and working through a lot of the issues that give him problems, his demanding behaviour with us and with other children, and his distorted thinking and negativity. He seems loads happier than a few months ago.
I did wonder if he had bipolar, but even with me I have found that the medical model only helps so much, controlling the worst symptoms, and I've had to completely rework my life to accomodate myself and live healthier.
Two weeks ago I asked him if he could change things and I didn't have bipolar, would he. He was able to think about it very clearly, and said he thinks he wouldn't be a good singer because we have always shared all this music which comes from my illness! He's only 10 but I think he's already developing some good strategies for a happy life, and I worry less now if he does have bipolar and concentrate on setting an example of how to live well- with or without it.
I had a very good psychologist for therapy. But the doctors I have been involved with weren't very helpful so far.
-
hi write,
thank you for sharing that, I love to listen to your stories about you and your son. They truly insire me.
pb
-
I think you're doing a brilliant job with your boy, Write.
Your intuition and memory of what it was like for you,
AND your restraint...and you are having the kind of talks
that keep people close.
Sing on! I love the notion of you two singing together, that's wonderful.
Hops
-
Write, I'm so glad for you that you and your son are working on this together and that progress is being made. I have no doubt that some of DD1's problems are my fault, but she exhibited rage behaviour beginning around 6 months old and I swear I was actually at a very stable part of my life then. She was so doted on by both sets of grandparents and by us, but yet the instant she didn't get her way she would rage.....like I said about the crib story.
Well, anyway............ seems I've actually discovered a pattern through some of my writing on here about this and that is, that she needs her space and I've pushed myself on to her too much. I can understand about needing space, so this shouldn't be a hard thing for me to work on being better at. But also, it seems to me, that while she needs her space, she's feeling somewhat insecure when she has that space. It's kind of a yo-yo pattern. So I think I'll work on being happy for her that she has her space but yet letting her know that we're here for her.
Adrift
-
Oh boy could I comment on some of this!
Ummmm, Penelope, I do not agree with you that this DD1 was behaving as a normal teen up until age 18, and I would like to also know if you have any children. If you do not, that will explain why you said that. People tried to tell me that my daughter, Anna was "normal" too, as a child, as a teen, etc, but let me just say this.
DD1 was ME TO A TEE as a child. I will NOT blame my mother for this. I was born like I was...angry, rebellious, nasty, mouthy, determined and persistent. As you can see, even now, I am not one who backs down real easily, even if people smear me or lash at me. I don't really give a rip most of the time, because I never really have. This is also why "control freaks" of the world, cannot get to me for any length of time. My mother, herself, would tell you that I have always been an overcomer. I've gone through things in my life, that would have put "runners" "hiders" into a mental institution, yet I just got back up and headed on with life. I largely attribute it to my relationship with God that I had since I was 3, when I would sit in my closet, talking to and listening to Him.
Now, again, with my daughter, Anna...she was BORN TO BE WILD, as the song goes. Every half year of Anna's life, she would go BALLISTIC! Probably up until she was an adolescent, days with Anna were filled with screaming matches, her throwing things at me, at her sister, etc. Even while Anna was a baby, at first we found it funny, that when I told her NO, she would turn and SMACK her sister. Now, I realize that was the beginning of PROJECTION. One time, Anna got angry at her sister and took a huge set of many keys on a keyring, and raked open her sister's back with them...it was bloody and gory and it didn't even PHASE Anna. It was the sort of scene that you'd see in horror movies!!!
Now, did people suggest that I spank her more? YES. Did I try that? YEP. Did it work? Not on your life!!! Anna was the kid who grabbed the paddle and begin hitting ME with it!!! I don't know if you all realize, but these children who have such issues early on, have UNBELIEVABLE PHYSICAL STRENGTH to reallyl HURT YOU! A lot of times I tried time-out with Anna. She would try and break the door down! I had to stand and hold the door closed, until her temper calmed down, or else she'd run out the door, maybe hurt me in some way, physically, etc.
I took Anna to counseling several times. It DID help her deal with her anger, thank GOD! To this day, she talks about that counseling experience to me and how much it helped her to learn to toss the basket ball, instead of lashing out, etc.
But, Anna at age 17, is very "stuck up" in some ways. I once said to her, kind of jokingly, "You really think you are all that, don't you?" She said "Pshhhht, THINK? I KNOW I am, what are YOU talkin bout?" She sort of has a ghetto attitude, like everyone else doesn't matter; only HER. She dresses in skin-tight clothes, with big earrings and lots of makeup. She flirts with guys and does all she can to "look good" in public...it is very MUCH an image thing with her, and she was JODI'S favorite child of mine, for OBVIOUS reasons!!! Anna, however, does not like other N's. When N Jodi sent her a swim suit, Anna wore it but refused to THANK Jodi for sending it. Jodi, of course, said "after all I've DONE for that kid! Well, SEE IF SHE GETS ANYTHING ELSE FROM ME!" It was interesting watching the sparks between the two N's goin on! See, I'm not an N, so I can see the signs of one. I'm not perfect either, but I am rather wise about things.
I said all that to say again, that I disagree with ya, Penelope. Children who say things like DD1 said to her mother, children who lash out at siblings when they are scolded...NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR FOR CHLDREN OR TEENS! Not at all. These are problem children who possibly show signs of Nism or BPD. period. They usually grow up to be the N's we 've all experienced, too. Sometimes the parents are to blame...sometimes, it is in the child's physical make up from the start and NOBODY is to blame. IS there a way to help these children? I would have liked to try meds back then, but hubby wouldn't hear of it. I believe only GOD can help some children/people, to be honest with you.
Penelope, please know that, although I disagree with your view, I still like YOU as a person.
~Laura
-
Hi Adrift,
This sounds like a very difficult situation. I don't have any specific advice, only this. If you think it is a problem, then it is a problem. If it seems to be causing problems within your family, then it is a problem.
Also, you in your family are all so close to the situation, that I think you really need an outsider to assess what is going on. We on the board cannot do a good job of that because it is too hard to convey a 19 year history involving 5 or more people. For this reason, therapy or counseling is a good idea. If you cannot get your D to go, you can go without her. Even if a person is absent, the relationship with them continues on in your mind. So even out of the house, she is still impacting your lives.
Good luck and hang in there. I don't think that feeling guilty is going to accomplish anything. Just keep at trying to sort the thing out.
Plucky
-
Hi Adrift. I read your post last night and wanted to sit with it a while before responding.
First, I want to thank you for taking the time to share so much of yourself and your personal experience in your family.
I just wanted to say that when I awoke this morning and thought about your situation, it occurred to me that the issue with your daughter might not be so much her anger, but her sense of entitlement. Anyone can be angry. The question is, what do you do with it?
It's true parents have a tremendous impact on the lives of their children, and it's also true, that mothers have always gotten the major blame for anything that goes wrong with a child, but you know, what I have come to realize is that nothing is a given, and if nothing is a given, then the person who is making a choice has got to take some responsibility for it.
For instance, children get abused every day. This increases their chances of becoming abusers, however, it is not a given that they will automatically become one. Some children do grow up to abuse others in the way they were. Some do not. What makes the difference? Is it genetic disposition? Is it personal will? Is it grace? I certainly don't know. Perhaps it's a little of everything, plus a synergy of variables that we are just not aware of.
The bottom line for you though, is regardless of why things unfolded as they did, you are faced with making a decision as to how things will be now. I think getting a trained outside perspective might be a good idea, with or without DD1 and in my opinion, the focus should be not be on how to help her deal with her anger or what to do with her anger, but how to redefine the parameters of appropriate behavior within your family and how to reinforce it. Perhaps, creating a list of what you want your family to look like, to engage your children, starting with the ones who are living with you and your husband, what family means to them, what they would like to see in their home in an ideal situation, what is of value to them....and saying DD1 doesn't come by anymore isn't enough.
What qualiities of DD1 not coming by anymore do you desire, what does it look like, feel like? Then how can you recreate those qualities in your household for everyone? How you can protect your space, your peace of mind and heart?
Make a commitment that this is what you want to create for each other, and then stand by it. Everyone, including guests, including DD1 will respect the values you set as a household in your home and in interaction with you as a person. DD1 is welcome to come by, she is your daughter and you love her dearly. Her humanness and all her emotions have value and can be acknowledged, just like everyone else's.
She may or may not have good reason to be angry, but she is not entitled to punish you with it.
She may or may not have good reason to be jealous of DD2, but she is not entitled to punish her with it.
She may or may not have good reason for any number of negative emotions she may feel, but she is not entitled to create more misery and grief for others with them.
What she can do is communicate these feelings in appropriate ways and she is certainly entitled to get help, when she is ready and willing, to learn how to do this. You cannot make her do this, but you can make sure that you no longer acquiesce to her sense of entitlement to disrupt your home.
You can ask her to leave, tell her to leave. You can let her know you love her, are there for her and will be more than willing to work with her in whatever way is necessary, in a mutually respectful way and in a safe environment, but you will no longer tolerate tantrums or emotional violence. You need to hold every action up to the standard of respect, and it must flow both ways. You can have expectations of appropriate behavior that you hold for all your family and guest, and if she cannot abide by them, then she can't stay.
Why are you the one to leave, when she throws a fit? She is the one who should be shown the door, which will always remain open when she is ready interact with you in a respectful way. This doesn't mean there's no anger or there won't be any conflict. It just means they will be expressed and dealt with in nonabusive ways.
And you have to stop paying for a crime you might feel deep down inside you committed a long time ago...even if you did. This does not help her now, and it does not help you. Someone once told me, "You can't fix the past", although I know I have found myself trying to do that over and over again. What you can do though is offer healing in the present, and to address the issues at hand with the knowledge, wisdom and the wholeness you have accrued and grew into over the years, even if the cost for what you learned is high...especially if the cost is high. All the more reason to use what you've learned now.
Demian
-
Wow Demian, very interesting! It's funny that you used the word entitlement. I'm old friends with my hairdresser (well, we aren't THAT old!) and through the years I've shared a little of what goes on with my DD1 with her, but not to the extent I shared on here. Anyway, my friend is very wise and she said to me not long ago that my DD1 sounds like she did when she was a teen. I knew this person when she was a teen and I thought she was totally mistaken, but then she started telling me things about her home and how she behaved (I know her entire family fairly well) and the saying "you never know what goes on behind closed doors" is so true. My friend/hairdresser told me how she had acted at home and she looked dead at me and said, "I thought I was entitled. No matter what my parents did for me, it was never enough. And I was so jealous of my sister and that made me feel even more entitled----then I fell flat on my butt and I grew up" What happened what that she got pregnant her senior year of high school, got into a big fuss with her parents and told them she didn't want their help, she and the guy got married (luckily for her he's a great guy) and then and only then, did she realize just how much her parents had done for her and how immature and unappreciative she had been. Now she has a great relationship with her parents and has two more kids and a wonderful marriage,,,,,,but she said to me that if she hadn't gone through those hard years of being a financially broke young family, she wouldn't have grown up and gotten over her sense of entitlement.
Course I'm REALLY hoping my DD1 doesn't get pregnant or married any time soon, but I do hope she is getting over her "entitlement" thing. I really like the part Demian when you wrote
She may or may not have good reason to be angry, but she is not entitled to punish you with it.
She may or may not have good reason to be jealous of DD2, but she is not entitled to punish her with it.
She may or may not have good reason for any number of negative emotions she may feel, but she is not entitled to create more misery and grief for others with them.
DD1 did bring up her depression again yesterday. I've known she was/is depressed for years and I've had on her various medication (I already covered this part, right?) however she's always pretty much tried to outrun her depression---you know how it goes; partying, hanging with friends ALL the time, drinking, sleeping---anything to try to outrun that depression. I told her years ago that that was what I felt like she was doing and it seemed to register with her for a little while but then she said that no, I was wrong. She said her depression/anger/unhappiness was caused by her crappy life and that if she could get her life better (be away from us, have FUN, do her own thing, live her life) then all would be peachy. I tried to explain to her that staying busy and having "fun" doesn't fix anything and that often depression is a chemical imbalance and that if she would take meds to fix the imbalance then her life wouldn't seem so bad. And I've told her many times that true happiness comes from the inside and from learning to love ourselves and to love others and by setting goals and making progress towards those goals. She didn't want to hear any of that in the past. Anyway, yesterday she actually asked to go get some new meds from our family dr. to help with depression!!!!!! If only she will accept that depression runs in our family, that she isn't "crazy" for feeling depressed and that it's o.k. to take meds to help with depression---if she'll do that and stick with a regimen I do believe she'll make some progress with many of her issues.
THanks again everyone for your words, encouragement and ideas!! Y'all are great!
Adrift
-
Hi adrift,
Your long post was well worth the read. I always wonder what parts of a child are innate and what we add to them. Honestly, I know a large part of my daughter's personality was part of her before she turned a year old. We do, of course, have a huge impact on most of our children, but are there some children we can't influence? I don't have an answer, and no one does. We all do and did what we hoped was best.
As for now, if you can bear it, I would limit contact with her if possible. I can't see any reason to continue with her right now (or possibly ever...). You have no need to be punished by her.
I wish you love and peace. Please tell us how it is going.
Love, Beth
-
Dear Adrift,
I've been following this thread about your daughter from the very beginning, but never knew what to say or add that might be of any practical help. My two older daughters are polar opposites in personality, yet each has her own set of issues and none of those issues have missed their mark in stabbing me in the heart, so I tend to go tone deaf when it comes to discussing this stuff. I've always wanted to tell you not to blame yourself, but I couldn't ... because I do. At least I did. But now, having read Demian's reply to you here, I have to say that my spirit just registers her words as the truth and I believe: you have to stop paying for a crime you might feel deep down inside you committed a long time ago...even if you did. This does not help her now, and it does not help you.
Thank you, Demian.
And thank you, Adrift, for making it possible for someone like me, who hasn't even been able to touch upon the subject, to hear the needed answers. I hope you will come to a place of peace and resolution with your daughter soon... even if that place is only within yourself.
With love,
Hope
-
((((((((Jac)))))))) thank you.
For a very long time I could barely think about my oldest daughter, especially. I mean literally, it was as though I had firmly placed a mental and emotional block around her and would not even allow the remotest thought or feeling to invade my bubble of denial. I actually saw this as a better alternative to despising her. What changed was realizing that it was myself I despised. I wasn't ashamed of her, I was ashamed of myself because I saw her as a part of me. She's a mess, still. But you know, I can think of her now and speak to her and tell her that I love her and mean it. I can say with all of my heart, she's a mess, but she's not MY mess, she's my daughter. My prayer is that all of this shadow-exposing will bring me to the place where she'll see herself in me and not wince, just as I can now see myself in her and not turn and run. I haven't posted much about my kids because it's always seemed too close to home for me. If I couldn't objectify a subject, it was off limits. That's changing, too, so ... I expect alot more will come out in time.
Jac, I want you to know that you have contributed alot to my strength, just in this short time I've been here. I think we've done the shadow dance and it has been more good than bad :) I love you alot.
Hope
-
Hi Jac and thanks for the insight. Your DD does sound a lot like mine. You wrote
So in reading your thread, Adrift, and taking stock of my own experiences, I got the feeling that you made the same mistake I was making with my own daughter, which can still be rectified now if you try it: that is reenforcing and rewarding her bad behavior.
Yep, I've finally realized that apparently the reason she likes to stir stuff up to epic proportions whenever she's at home is because it gets her 1) attention (but I swear she gets positive attention when she behaves but I guess she likes the fireworks kind of attention---being the whole center of the universe) and 2) she feels in control when she has us all upset with me crying, DD2 crying because her sister hates her and DH switching from trying to reason with her to raging at her.
There's one thing I did that I didn't tell because I'm so ashamed of myself. But I'm gonna tell it now. We just built this house and moved in here a year ago. ((Without bragging, I'd like to insert that we were fortunate enough to be able to build a really nice house in the top neighborhood. It's on a lake, has a beautiful yard and you'd think she'd enjoy it and like it just a tad------but no, not her)) Even though DD1 was moving away to college, I built her her own bedroom which means we built a 4 bedroom house. DS had never had his own room but had always shared with DD2 (because DD1 and DD2 CANNOT get along). Well, for the first 3 months we were in here, which coincided with her first 3 months of college, she spent exactly one night here (college town is only 45 minutes away AND she wasn't working and was only taking 12 hours). She did drop by for the briefest of visits about 5 times during those 3 months, especially when she needed something. Still her visits were horrible events. In the year we've been here she's maybe spent 4 nights here----that is how much she has hated us and wanted to be away from us. Anyway, back to what I did that I'm ashamed of. Before we moved in here, we painted her room the color she selected, put in pretty carpet and moved in her stuff but didn't unpack her boxes----stupid me thought she'd have some interest in her own room. And with all I had to do I certainly didn't and don't think that unpacking her boxes is my job. She had no problem decorating and unpacking in her apartment in college town. But nope, the stuff is still in boxes (this being the stuff she doesn't need in her apartment-- like old trophies, photo albums, pictures, old shoes, etc... ) When I tried to talk with her about curtain colors she didn't have any time for that :cry: and one day about 4 months ago during a conversation I said something to her about us missing her and about her bedroom needing to be worked on and because she didn't want to be bothered with us or home or her new room, she blurted out hatefully "I DON'T LIVE THERE ANYMORE" You could have knocked me over with a feather. Soooooooooo, I said "o.k." and then unbeknownst to her we moved her bed into her brothers room because it worked much better in there, and made her "bedroom" into an upstairs office. And to this day it is still an office. She got pissed about it when she did finally come home one day and found out she no longer had a bed in her bedroom and she said/says I had/have emotionally hurt her and I have "just given her one more reason to not come home" :roll: Yes, I feel on the one hand like I did a terrible thing, but we did need the office space and Miss Princess made it plain she didn't care about the room. Then again maybe it will prove to be a good does of reality. When she does come home for the night (maybe once every two months) she sleeps in her brothers room since he sleeps in our room with us now, so she has her bed all to herself, it's just not in HER room. ((FYI, DS sleeps in our room in a little junior bed because he has trouble breathing at night sometimes and I need to be able to hear him so I can get up and get his meds for him when necessary))
I no longer ask her if or when she's gonna come home and have totally forbidden her sister to ask her about it either. She knows the door is open for her. I have told her that the bedroom can be converted back into a bedroom and asked her about curtain colors, but I'm kinda leaving that ball in her court. When she shows a little interest in being a part of this family then we'll change the room back---but that's not what I've said to her.
The rest of us are now carrying on happily and are living our lives. I speak with her daily on the phone, usually she calls me, and it seems to be working out better like this. The four of us, me, DH, DS and DD2 get along very well and have good, fun, happy times together. DD1 has always been the cog that wouldn't fit. One more possible explanation for DD1's behaviour is that I let her spend WAY too much time with my MIL when she was young. Up until about age 12 she spent a lot of time with them and my MIL is an N that totally rules her roost (meaning my FIL) and makes everyone around her either mad or uncomfortable. I could tell you about her but you'd swear I was making it up. Anyway, if I'd had a clue that being around her might have affected DD1, I wouldn't have let them spend so much time with her. My MIL totally doted on DD1, made her literally the queen, the princess---bragged on her, dressed her in finery, spent lots of time and money on her-------way more than any of the other grandkids got. Funny thing is, now DD1 can't stand to be around her grandmother because she sees her for what she is.
Jac also wrote
my daughter wasn't so much interested in what was fair, no matter what she said, she was interested in getting her own way. Period.
Yep, BINGO, that's it. That's how DD1 has always been and in calmer times has admitted to me that when she wants her way she wants it to badly that she can literally feel it in her bones and feels as if SHE JUST ABSOLUTELY HAS to have her way.
Guess I'll stop now. Thanks everyone.
Adrift
-
Jac wrote:
I think, Adrift, if you recognized for your Daughter, the name of the game is control you will be in a better place emotionally. If she can control those around her - how close they get to her (because it's so scary); how much attention she gets (a lot when I'm acting bad and crazy because deep inside I feel I am bad and crazy) then she feels safe. Remember, inside your daughter does not feel she deserves good treatment (that is why she encourages bad treatment and reinforces it with her bad behavior) she does not feel she deserves to be loved (that's why she only has relationships with men who treat her badly.)
HUH????????? I mean, I understand the words you used, I just don't understand how she can feel "safe" by reinforcing "bad and crazy" behaviour. I know that people "teach others how to treat them" and that she has low self-esteem (she's admitted as much) and that's why she lets guys walk all over her,,,,,,,,,,,,but I'm still just plain struggling with the whole thing.
I think, because it's worked in my life, once you disconnect from the need (not from you daughter) but from the need to get the response you'd like out of her, you will begin to see things in a whole different light.
I think you are right!! I'm learning to let go of any fantasies and hopes I had about she and I being close and I'm learning to just accept life as it is. I don't understand why she doesn't feel comfortable with people being "close" to her, but I believe you hit the nail on the head there. And you are totally correct about the control, although I don't understand her desperate need for that either. She has made new friends (and has managed to maintain those friendships for a number of months now) and is so close to them, but yet rejects us :?: ((Well, I guess she is close to them, she talks about them all the time but I've only met a few of them)) But that is o.k., I'm learning to accept that. We can pick our friends but we can't pick our families, right?? I'm very thankful that DD2 and I really click--she and I are so much a like and SHE LIKES ME AND LIKES BEING WITH ME---AND SHE'S 14!!!--what a huge difference from her sister. DS is a joy as well. I'm sure I've mentioned he has Down Syndrome and he's just the lovingest, sweetest child. DD1 always seemed to love him so much, but she never comes home to see him and doesn't even ask about him most the times when she calls. I guess she's just so caught up in her own life she doesn't have room for the rest of us. It's sad, though, because DD2 and DS love her so much (not exactly sure why) and she does't have time for them. :(
Maybe if I give you an example of how my MIL acts this will give you more info so that you can help me understand DD1. My MIL has always treated my FIL as if he is dirt. I've been married into this family for nearly 21 years and I've never heard her praise him, compliment him, never seen her treat him with love, kindness, concern, etc........ She publicly and privately berates him and it is EMBARASSING! which is why no one wants to be around them. My FIL is a smart man, had a good job with lots of responsibility, was head deacon in the church for years, salt of the earth kind of fella, honest as the day is long, kind, gentle, understanding--------the kind of husband many women would love to have and yet he married and has put up with this emotional abuse for almost 50 years. MIL is very haughy, always has been, and she thinks she knows everything and she puts FIL down constantly telling him he doesn't know what he's talking about while the rest of us secretly roll our eyes because she's SO wrong about whatever the subject matter is. She's an idiot and everyone who knows her knows it ----except for her. Why does no one stand up to her?? Because she'll begin to cry and then make FIL's life miserable once they get home. I stood up to her once about 10 years ago and she and I verbally gave each other "what for". She cried for 2 weeks, FIL made my DH come over to their house a number of times to talk to her and calm her down and explain to her that everything was gonna be o.k. I didn't threaten the woman in anyway,,,,I just simply told her that if she had something to say about me to say it to my face and not to DH and that I was tired of being put down by her in front of the family and from there she named every bad quality of mine she could think of. I countered with my own list of her bad qualities and I guess no one has stood up to her for so long she was shocked beyond belief. Would you believe my FIL (with whom I've always gotten along with wonderfully) was actually peeved with me for a while?? He didn't say so but I could tell by the way he acted. I don't know if it was because I upset the apple cart or because her weeks of crying made his life so much more misearable. Anway, that was years ago and she hasn't crossed me since and in fact treats me with much more respect than she does her own daughter. A few weeks ago my FIL was horribly sick with a virus and I called to ask if I needed to bring him anything and all MIL could do was bitch about how he'd been throwing up and how horrible he sounded when he did (the sound bothered her) and how she had to Lysol every room in the house so she wouldn't get sick. I asked again if he was o.k. and did I need to bring some gatorade or anything and again all she could talk about was her having to spray lysol!!!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: She can't live without this man and yet she cares nothing for his welfare. And when I say she can't live without him, it's because he does the following: all the cooking, all the cleaning, pays all the bills (she cries if she has to write a check---she gets nervous :roll:), he drives her to every dr. appointment (she can't drive anymore) , he does all the grocery shopping, he bathes her, he dresses her, he even wipes her butt on a regular occassion because she can't control herself :roll:, and she walks with a walker. She's an invalid of her own making because she loves being doted on 1000%. She falls all the time, yet has never broken a bone---how can they be true falls if she's yet to break anything???????? Then she'll have FIL drive them to go out to dinner and she'll recount her fall to whomever is around to listen!!!!!!!!!
Oh, I should add she wasn't nearly this bad when DD1 was young and spent time with them.....but MIL has always been terribly bossy to FIL and treated him with no love or concern at all. One time years ago MIL said about FIL, in a very haughy manner, "I know he loves me, I KNOW he does" ---it was really weird, kinda like how a criminal would brag on how perfectly he had executed a crime---with only pride but no conscience. So I wonder if MIL keeps FIL jumping through the hoops to this day (and the hoops become more numbered by the year) just to prove to herself that he loves her----not that she knows what love is. FIL told me years ago that if something happens to him to just put her in a nursing home because no one else could do to suite her----well, neither can he. He needn't worry, I'm sure she'll outlive him because he's stressed to the point of breaking now and she's totally clueless as to how precariously her life hangs. When he's gone, she'll be placed somewhere and no one will ever visit her, because no one, not even her own kids or grandkids, like her.
I used to really like my FIL a lot and felt sorry for him and then decided that she is his Frankenstein to a large degree---he should have walked out on her years ago and I don't usually advocate such measures. I have no respect for him anymore, he has allowed her to totally immasculate him as far as I'm concerned. I guess being the good man he is, he didn't/ doesn't believe in divorce and he kept thinking all through the years that if he just gave in a little here and a little there that she'd be satisfied. WRONG !!---but it's too late now, Frankenstein lives and is destroying her ennabler and the hand that feeds her.
Sorry for the additional ramble but I have LOTS more stories if anyone is bored :lol: