Author Topic: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry  (Read 8500 times)

adrift

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Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« on: July 20, 2006, 06:47:43 PM »
Sorry this is soooo long.

Thus far I've avoided this subject because it's so complex I don't think I can get it across very well.  DD1 (dear daughter #1) is our oldest child (19) and has been difficult since infancy, no kidding. You know how the docs tell you to put them in the crib and they'll eventually go to sleep???? Not her.  Before the age of 1 she would stand in her crib and jerk back and forth on the sides and scream bloody murder for up to an hour. I'm talking about screaming until I was seriously worried she was gonna rupture something, really.  Blood red face, crying and screaming so hard she'd be snubbing and couldn't breath.  Then we tried the technique of going in every 10 minutes to reassure her, blah, blah, blah----nothing worked. At night I would rock her to sleep, and she would fight going to sleep, and then gently ease her into her crib and the second she was on the mattress she'd begin to scream and wouldn't stop until I rocked her again. Many, many sleepless nights (and yes, I'd get angry too).  By the age of 3 I HAD to put her in a program for half days (even though I was staying home) because she was about to drive me over the edge.  Non-stop temper tantrums, screaming, crying and only happy if everything in the universe was her way.  By age 5 I had her at a psychiatrist and he agreed she was ADD and that she "had some problems" but before those could be investigated, my DH (dear hubby--also her dad) put a stop to it and said there wasn't anything wrong with her except she was spoiled.  I was raised "spare the rod and spoil the child" but spankings never phased her, she was definant no matter what.  Time outs didn't work, sending her to her room only resulted in her trashing her room and escalating her anger. Reasoning, bribing,,,,,nothing worked. She's ALWAYS had to have the last word, even when she was very young. Getting her to stop her verbal barage has always been a battle.  It's not like she wasn't allowed to express herself or blow off a little steam, but we're talking ranting, raving, screaming non-stop barages over minor things, such as her sister went into her room again.  Finally, around the age of 10, I resorted to telling her she was gonna GET a lick (with a belt) for every word. Now I wouldn't say this until she'd ranted for what should have been enough time and HAD FULLY expressed her displeasure.  Occassionally this would shut her up, but often she'd just keep on ranting while I counted the words and then even while I was spanking her she'd be screaming at me at the top of her lungs, "I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU"........... :cry:   

By the time she turned 15, she was going places with her friends and woe on me if I told her no.  She would throw a fit, accuse me of being unfair, yell that all the other kids got to have a life and do this and that but that she wasn't allowed to do anything.  When we made her do chores (not many, but help with setting and clearing the table, help with laundry, watch her younger brother and sister while I did chores)  all we heard nonstop was how unfair we were and that none of her other friends "were treated like slaves", blah, blah, blah...........All this while she was enjoying a private school education, cheerleading,  had the option of playing any sports she wanted, got a car at 16-----she never wanted for anything but wasn't lavished with material good either.  Yes, her best friend was a spoiled brat who WAS LAVISHED and who never had to lift her finger,  but there were other kids she knew who had responsiblities but she only saw that her life was crap and unfair.  :shock: :shock: :shock:

When she was 16 I was so worn down with 16 years of her tantrums and manipulating (she's a master manipulator and plays fast and loose with the truth)  that I just began to give in more and more to her demands to go here and there and have this and that. For most of her life I felt her dad was too hard on her so I would intervene and basically left him out of the decision making with her because I felt he didn't understand her (I would now say this was a BIG MISTAKE!).  Her friends and going places with her friends became the most important things in her life and I'll never forget one night when we had told her no, she couldn't go somewhere because we thought it was too late and not safe to be on the road and she screamed at us and said that she'd "rather die with her friends than be with us".  :shock: :shock:   

She moved out last August for college and our homelife has gotten so much more pleasant :D   She never comes home and every time she does, it's hell to pay.  She didn't do well her first year of college (has a 2.0) and has ended up totally hating her one time best friend (I told her to not room with her friends but she wouldn't listen)  So she lost her scholarships and now is working part time (she decided to stay in college town during the summer rather than come home because our home town "sucks" and she hates it here) in college town waiting for the next semester to begin.  DH is paying through the nose for her to live away this summer, but he'd rather pay it than have her here.  I feel the same way.   Sometime after she moved out last August, I began to see her more clearly and realized that DH has been more right about her than I would allow myself to see and he now agrees that he should have let her go to that psychiatrist when she was young.   Sometime around last September I cut myself out of any decision making in regards to DD1.  She never had enough money and would confuse the facts until she had me convinced she was due more money and when DH would prove her wrong and I saw it myself on paper I knew then she had played me for a fool long enough and I turned it all over to DH---which she didn't/doesn't like at all.  She can't manipulate him or fool him about anything.

Last night she came home to spend the night for the first time in months (college town is only about 45 minutes away) and the first time to visit in about 6 weeks and it ended up with screaming, yelling, crying (on her part) until about 3 a.m.  Here's her main complaint and the one she's had for many, many years---she hates her sister.  DD2 is 5 years younger and was very ill as an infant and was treated more delicately then, but DD1 believes DD2 is still treated more favorably and that simply isn't so.  DD2 is a loving, caring, considerate child ---- the total opposite of DD1 basically.  DD1 thinks  DD2's behaviour is all about sucking up to us and pulling the wool over our eyes and that actually DD2 is mean and sneaky.  Yes, there have been plenty of times DD2 has done little things to annoy DD1 (such as going into DD1's bedroom) but she hasn't done anything that she didn't learn from DD1.  Actually, DD1 is the mean, sneaky one.  There's been more than once that DD1 has physically hurt DD2 (pulling hair, twisting her wrists, hitting her her, pushing her down) and then threatened her if she told us. Sometimes I'd witness the behaviour and punish DD1 other times we'd only find out about all this much later. And of course when DD1 was confronted, she would go ballistic and scream it wasn't like that and that DD2 had deserved it and that we always take DD2's side, blah, blah, blah........ 

Last night, DD1 blew up at DD2 because, DD2 #1 asked DD1 when she started liking mushrooms on her pizza, (DD1 says she doesn't like to be quizzed constantly by DD2) , #2 DD2 made a joking remark that DD1 does lots of things we don't know about and then, #3, DD2 wanted to watch the bloopers on her movie and DD1 said in an ugly tone, "Why don't you go watch it in your room" and something else I can't remember and when DD2 was about to cry, DD1 said, "Yeah, cry, cry, go ahead and cry" in a hatefu, l taunting manner.  Then she went on to tell DD2 that she "wasn't normal" and that there was something wrong with her.  Here I stepped in and calmly told DD1 that she wasn't the adult and that she didn't send DD2 to her room and that she wasn't allowed to talk to her like that. THEN poop hit the fan. About that time DH walked in from work and from 12am to 3 am the screaming, crying and etc....went on. (DD2 and DS were sent to bed before all hell broke lose, but they could hear every word)  I only participated and stayed in the room until 1:30 am when she blew up at me in a horribly ugly manner because I didn't remember she had been home briefly one day last week (she was here about 2 hours to get some paper work) and as soon as DH reminded me about her trip home I said, "Oh, yeah, I forgot" and DD1 went ballistic and I went to bed. Up until a year ago I wouldn't have let DH be the one in charge of dealing with her and I would have tried to take her side as much as possible , but no more.  I've had her on zoloft in the past, but she quit taking it.  Then I got her on Cymbalta, but she quit taking it.  I've begged her to go to counseling and got her set up with a therapist, but she wouldn't/won't go.   I've catered to her in the past because I felt she has a problem and I was trying to help her........... :roll:  and she just used me. She doesn't care about anyone's feelings, although she says she does.  She has no gratitude, although she says she does, she has NO RESPECT for us, although she says she does. 

Her main complaint last night?? That DD2 has always been treated differently and that she hates her for that, that we don't see through DD2's evil ways, that when she, DD1, comes home we don't act excited enough and that the last time she was here I took a shower (I'd been working in the yard when she got here and was yucky) and that when she comes home I don't spend enough time with her and that she hates it that DD2 and I have gotten closer.  ANd she hates her sister, hates her.  She's even told DD2 before (I was there and heard it) that she wished she was dead (pretty mean to say to a child that nearly died and has a genetic disorder that has resulted in learning problems and glaucoma in both eyes) and has told her, and us, more than once that she hates us. 

Our DS has Down Sydrome and DD1 loves him to death, so it isn't DD2's genetic differences that upset her.  And no, DD2 doesn't look different or funny, she looks perfectly normal so it isn't an issue of embarassment for DD1. 

DD1 was calm when she left this morning, just as she always is a few hours after a main episode like this.  But nothing has changed, it never does.  I don't know why I ever want her to come home, DD2 and I have to walk on eggshells and still she finds something to explode about.

As for drug usage, we secretly had her tested back in November (dr. is good friend of ours and he did a urine test under false pretences, results did not go in her chart) and it tested positive for pot and I know she's smoked it since then although she says she's not doing it now. We've threatened to have a full panel drug test done, but from watching her eyes, weight and complexion, I don't think there's anything else going on with drugs.   OH, and I got on her FACEBOOK account a few months ago and was appalled at her language and some of the things she said.  In most of the postings, she had the worst language of anyone.  DH and I confronted her about that and it wasn't pretty. 

ANd it's not just us she can't get a long with.  She's getting better at getting a long with her peers, but she has resentment towards most adults.  To paint you a picture, DD1 doesn't dress like a ho, doesn't have any tatoos, only has ear lobes pierced-nothing else, doesn't wear lots of mak-up.  (no offense to anyone with tatoos or multiple piercings--just giving some info here) isn't into gothic or heavy metal---she's basically looks like a good kid with leanings toward being conservative,,,,  of course I don't see her that often so exactly how she does when she's not home I can't say.

Obviously she has never been able to self-soothe and has anger issues. I think she has trouble also with intimacy. Should I make us all go to family counseling??? At the rate this is going, we'll never be able to have a relationship with her because she has so much anger towards us and her sister.  I know she'll hate going to counseling and knowing her she won't cooperate and it'll just be a waste of money.

AS for boyfriends, she's choosy but once she picks one they end up treating her like crap in no time and yet she hangs on and lets them mistreat her for months , until she's such a basket case she's about out of her mind. She picks guys that make my emtional radar sound off, but I keep my mouth shut, unless she asks. She picks guys who play some of the same games with her that she plays with us---lying, manipulating, accusing, ................ 


If you've been able to read this far, I hope some of you have some insight. Anything at all would be appreciated.

Adrift
 

pennyplant

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2006, 07:41:26 PM »
Dear Adrift,

No problem reading the whole thing.  Your daughter reminds me so much of my sister, who is one year younger than me.  It is amazing how one little girl can wreak havoc on a family.  Whatever the cause of the problems, the results have to be quite stressful and damaging to the rest of you.

There is so much going on here.  I think your idea for family counseling is a wise one.  To be honest, I doubt that DD1 will participate but maybe that is a good thing.  It's time that the family stop revolving around this one person and have a chance to heal themselves.  She may find her way to getting help at some point in the future.  My sister finally gave in and got therapy last year.  She was 43 at that time.  It took a very long time for her to admit she could use help.  Her son becoming estranged from her was rock bottom for her.  Who knows what it will be for your daughter?  I just think that family therapy will be helpful to you guys who have had to deal with this for so long.

My sister left our home at about age 13 or 14 (entered foster care system).  It was so peaceful for the first time in so long that I thought for years it was a good thing that the family basically flew apart (my father left at about the same time--my mother didn't want to be married to him anymore).  It took a very long time for me to realize that the damage had been done and that removing the source of the stress and difficulties didn't change that little fact.  So, that's why I'm saying, get therapy for the rest of you.  Help each other heal.  DD1 will probably have to find her own path since she doesn't accept anyone else's ideas.

I'm glad you shared this story.  It has to be really hard for you to deal with this all these years.  You might be so used to it, it doesn't seem as stressful as it is.  My whole childhood with a sister like that was nearly unrelenting pressure.  I was so used to it, I thought that was just how being alive felt.  She was (is) the younger sister, so she hated me for being born first, genuinely resented that.  No one could do enough for her to make up for that injustice.  I don't know how she came up with that as her major problem in life.  It's like being mad at the sky for being blue.

Hang in there, Adrift.  You did your very best with her.

Love, Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

adrift

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2006, 11:16:17 PM »
Pennyplant,

Sorry you had to go through that. I know what you mean aboutthe craziness seeming normal, and then I realize how well DD2 and DS get along (there's 5 years between them too) and I notice other children actually being nice to their parents and liking their parents and at least nicely tolerating their siblings and it drives home the problem DD1 (we) have.  Dd2 and DS treat us with respect, they love us, they enjoy being with us----and DD1 has been wanting to be away from us for forever and basically since the age of 15 has spent as little time with us as she could.  Someone else has said to me that perhaps DD1 has ODD (oppositional defiant disorder) which I've already wondered about greatly.  Would you believe, that when she was 3 and I put her in this wonderful half-day program (it was laid back, but they still did fun stuff) and I would pick her up and on the way home I'd try to have a conversation and it'd go like this. 

Me "Did you have fun?"
Her "Yeah"
Silence
Me "What did y'all do today?"
Her "Nothing"
Silence
Me, "Did y'all sing any songs?"  ---me knowing perfectly well that they did cuz I would chat with her teacher some days
Her, "I dunno"
Silence
Me, "Did y'all color or draw?"----again, I had a pretty good idea what they did
Her, "I dunno"


It wasn't that she didn't like the kindergarten, she did, she just didn't want to talk to me, she would look out the window and one day when I nicely asked her if something was wrong she said she had a headache because she was hungry and that was why she wasn't talking.  So I started bringing a snack along for the ride home. Didn't help one bit :roll:  I so wanted a close relationship with her and have continued to crave that all her life. 
 She had me jumping through hoops at an early age. Course then I'd get mad after a while about how she acted and I'd fuss and then she's be nice for how ever long she thought it would take to get out of hot water.  That is behaviour she continues to this day, being fakely nice when she knows she finally pushed too far, but she never makes any real changes.

 
Good news is that DD2 and I have become close since DD1 has left.  Before I was constantly  having to referee between them and DD1 was never satisfied unless DD2 was in trouble for something. Now, DD2 and I have a wonderful relationship, she's sweet (always has been) and fun (always has been) and loving and caring and SHE LIKES/LOVES ME! Imagine that!  So I guess I've got the relationship with DD2 that I tried so hard to have with DD1.  Maybe I tried too hard with DD1?? Oh, and DS (who had Down Syndrome) is an absolute joy!  So except for the constant stress DD1 keeps stuff in (like the phone bill which came in today), our family is pretty good right now.  I'm sure DD1 will never move back home and that's a good thing, sad but good.

I"m also the one who posted about "Anger as a habit" and I did have anger issues for years and I'm sure that negatively affected her and our relationship, and I've blamed myself for years for her being the way she is and I'm sure I'm at fault in plenty of ways, but still,,,,her core being is one of defiance and only she can change that. ANd I've talked to her many times about me/her/us and I've apologized for things I've done and I've made good progess in myself, so I would think that some of that would help or go in the plus column, but none of it makes any difference.   Last night she actually said in a really hateful voice, "I know, I'm the first and you made all your mistakes with me and now with DD2 you're different parents and act like she's perfect and like I'm crap"   I would have given my eye teeth for my mom to ever have apologized for one thing she did to me or to have even admitted she was human--but my daughter uses my apologies against me.  This isn't a pity party, hope it doesn't sound like one.  What it is, is one totally exasperated parent.

Thanks for y'alls perspectives and insight.  Thanks for listening :)

Adrift

WRITE

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2006, 11:54:42 PM »
Should I make us all go to family counseling???

no one can really make anyone do anything, adrift
( spoken in the most gentle voice I know how )

penelope

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2006, 12:23:44 AM »
uhm.  She sounds like a pretty normal child and teenager, up until the point of being 18 (where she then sounds like an adult) to me.

Maybe she's been scapegoated in the family?  A child like this didn't grow up in a vacuum...that's all.

Therapy would probably be helpful, but not for her.

pb

adrift

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2006, 11:08:46 AM »
Penelope, this behaviour sounds normal to you??? Not to me, not at all.  And she hasn't been scapegoated. 

Adrift

dandylife

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2006, 11:30:21 AM »
It sounds eerily like my own story/family life. I am now divorced from my kids' dad, but basically the same story. Child #1 came along (a girl) and was the apple of our eye, although from the beginning not an easy child. Beautiful, loving the center of attention, but also would throw tantrums when not getting her way, etc. Charming and absolutely gorgeous. At the age of 8, her little brother came along. Boy did she hate that. And he was (and still is) an angel. In looks and behavior. So, most of the attention shifted from her to him.

BUT we also had the interesting mother/father/daughter dynamic that you describe. I wonder if yours originates the same way mine did? Father (kids' father) has many N characteristics, and I grew up with a mother who did not protect me in my family of origin (abusive father). So, whenever anything resembling abuse happens between my kids' dad and them, I step in as the VERY protective lioness mother, not letting anyone or anything do anything to my babies that was done to me. So, the dynamic develops that the dad is outside this little triangle. Makes for lots of fights and misunderstandings. And boundary crossing, big time.

It would greatly help your family to get counseling and learn the dynamics that are happening that are unhealthy. It's not as important to realize the origins (though that helps) but the boundary stuff alone will help you all deal with each other better in the future.

I know it's frustrating going through it. Sounds like you are getting a clearer picture of what's happening. A counselor can really help you take a step back and recognize what's going on.

K.
"All things not at peace will cry out." Han Yun

"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

Bones

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2006, 02:32:22 PM »
Hi, Adrift.

As I was reading the description of DD#1, I was reminded of a situation I encountered when I was working at an elementary/middle school.  This child had several neurological issues, some of them were not definitive because the medical technology at the time did not know how to diagnose them.  The only description of this child's behavior that came to my mind, each time I saw him, was "Tasmanian Devil" from the Looney Toons cartoons that I used to watch as a child.  No one knew from one second to the next what might set him off until he started ripping things off the walls and throwing them at whoever was within range!

What made it more difficult for the school's staff was that every time we tried to address this out of control behavior, his mother would scream lawsuit and act as if it was an insult to HER!  This kid even went so far as to send a teacher to the Emergency Room with a ripped open lip because she dared say the word "No" to him and the mother's reaction was "How dare you say NO to MY child!" as if we were also saying NO to her!  Things finally came to a head when it was time for this kid to apply for enrollment at the nearby high school.  His behaviors had not improved, in fact, they were worse.  Security was being called every day.  He was physically bigger than many of the school staff by this point and the high school administrators determined that they could not meet this kid's special needs.  His mother kept on screaming "law suit" but she didn't win her case.  At times, we couldn't help but wonder which was worse...dealing with the kid's behaviors or dealing with the mother's behaviors.  The few times I encountered her gave me the impression that she was deep into denial as well as taking everything the school staff were telling her as a personal insult/attack.  At that time, I was not aware of narcissistic disorders.  (I've since retired from that educational system and decided to go back to school myself.)

Your child's doctor may have sensed something was wrong back then but may not have had the technological wherewithal to run the diagnostics that are available today.  At this point, DD#1 may have to "hit bottom" before she decides to get help.  In the meantime, Tough Love is the best you can do for her since she is now an adult.  Maybe something similar to Al-Anon (detaching with love) could help work through what you're feeling.  Just MHO for what it's worth.

Bones


adrift

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2006, 03:32:37 PM »
Bones,  What a terrible situation for the kid and mom you described.  I taught school for awhile myself and while I never encountered anything of the magnitude you've described, I was continually shocked by the number of parents who insisted that their kids were never wrong/at fault, regardless of the situation or evidence.   I mentioned that DD1 has anger towards other adults, which is true, what I didn't add but should have is that she covers it well when she's with them (at work, at school, etc...) but it boils inside of her and then either I or her friends get to hear the long rampage.  She used to confide in me reguarly (and she was always mad at someone about something) , but now she mostly tells her friends her problems which I guess is good for my ulcer.   :?  And putting distance between us is part of her growing up.  She has gotten better at picking and keeping friends, so that is progress.  Bones, it's funny you said she'll have to "hit bottom" because that is exactly what her dad and I discuss between ourselves. 


I think someone else on here mentioned that DD1's behaviour the other night got her attention, and that is true.  I told DH after she left the next day, I said, "Do you realize that this is how it always goes, and has for years and years, and then she gets hours of attention because she carries on and on?"  So maybe some of this is her way of getting the amount of attention she needs (or thinks she needs) although whenever I offer to do stuff with her (like come over to college town and take her out to eat) she usually has plans. She doesn't have time for me or us when we offer,  it all has to be on her timetable and her terms. 

Dandylife, somethings you said struck home.  My father was abusive and my mother just let him be that way.  She never took my side or defended me and often actually egged it on.  I realized some time back, that whenever DH would begin to fuss at the kids or reprimand them (he never spanks them) it's like I'm shot back in time to being that little girl again and I can't stand it---well, actually I'm learning how to stand it.  If I'd known all this years ago and been able to deal with it then, then I wouldn't have intervened between DH and DD1 and wouldn't have basically taken on raising her myself.  AND DH and I wouldn't have had to fight about my intervening.  Isn't it amazing how pervasive a screwed up childhood becomes?? How it enters every area of our adult lives and leads us to make wrong decisions?? ANd yes, a triange developed and it wasn't healthy.

To whoever  on this board introduced the "Triangulation" thread, I want to say thank you, again.  That one thread and the subsequent research I did on the Karpman Triangle has probably helped me as much as anything.  THank you, thank you, thank you.  ANd thanks to all of you who take the time to write and help me with my issues.  Maybe one day I'll be more insightful and be able to help y'all.

Adrift

Bones

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2006, 03:45:33 PM »
Bones,  What a terrible situation for the kid and mom you described.  I taught school for awhile myself and while I never encountered anything of the magnitude you've described, I was continually shocked by the number of parents who insisted that their kids were never wrong/at fault, regardless of the situation or evidence.   I mentioned that DD1 has anger towards other adults, which is true, what I didn't add but should have is that she covers it well when she's with them (at work, at school, etc...) but it boils inside of her and then either I or her friends get to hear the long rampage.  She used to confide in me reguarly (and she was always mad at someone about something) , but now she mostly tells her friends her problems which I guess is good for my ulcer.   :?  And putting distance between us is part of her growing up.  She has gotten better at picking and keeping friends, so that is progress.  Bones, it's funny you said she'll have to "hit bottom" because that is exactly what her dad and I discuss between ourselves. 


I think someone else on here mentioned that DD1's behaviour the other night got her attention, and that is true.  I told DH after she left the next day, I said, "Do you realize that this is how it always goes, and has for years and years, and then she gets hours of attention because she carries on and on?"  So maybe some of this is her way of getting the amount of attention she needs (or thinks she needs) although whenever I offer to do stuff with her (like come over to college town and take her out to eat) she usually has plans. She doesn't have time for me or us when we offer,  it all has to be on her timetable and her terms. 

Dandylife, somethings you said struck home.  My father was abusive and my mother just let him be that way.  She never took my side or defended me and often actually egged it on.  I realized some time back, that whenever DH would begin to fuss at the kids or reprimand them (he never spanks them) it's like I'm shot back in time to being that little girl again and I can't stand it---well, actually I'm learning how to stand it.  If I'd known all this years ago and been able to deal with it then, then I wouldn't have intervened between DH and DD1 and wouldn't have basically taken on raising her myself.  AND DH and I wouldn't have had to fight about my intervening.  Isn't it amazing how pervasive a screwed up childhood becomes?? How it enters every area of our adult lives and leads us to make wrong decisions?? ANd yes, a triange developed and it wasn't healthy.

To whoever  on this board introduced the "Triangulation" thread, I want to say thank you, again.  That one thread and the subsequent research I did on the Karpman Triangle has probably helped me as much as anything.  THank you, thank you, thank you.  ANd thanks to all of you who take the time to write and help me with my issues.  Maybe one day I'll be more insightful and be able to help y'all.

Adrift

Thanks, Adrift.  Looks like great minds think alike!   :D

I'm guessing that one of these days, DD#1's temper is going to exhibit itself at the wrong time at the wrong person and no one will be able to bail her out of the mess she got herself into.  That happened to a former co-worker of mine who attempted to park her car illegally in front of a police officer!!!   :shock:  The officer explained to her about the parking laws and that she is not allowed to park her car where she attempted to leave it.  Her response was to throw a soda pop bottle at him!!   :shock: :shock:  After her arrest, she attempted to whine at work about this "mean police officer" who dared tell her where she could and could not park her car (as if traffic laws do not apply to her) and tried to garner sympathy from me.  I was blunt and told her (1) traffic laws apply to every one, even to her "The Princess" and (2) after he slapped the cuffs on her, did she learn anything yet?  She pouted the rest of the day and never spoke to me again (which was fine). 

Bones

penelope

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2006, 05:24:26 PM »
hi adrift,

I don't know you, but from what you've described, you are an angry person and your daughter has been "difficult."  I find this quite interesting as it's clear from reading you that you believe the problem lies with your daughter, and if she would just "behave" all the problems in your family would go away.  This is so classic in dysfunctional families, that someone is to blame (the scapegoat) for all the families problems.  So you daughter is playing that role to the T - which is why I say she sounds pretty "normal" to me.  Have you thought of doing a little research?  Becoming Attached by Robert Karen is a good book that goes in depth into why children become "difficult."  Pretty good stuff.  An interesting read, and you'll be appalled to find out it has to do with their Mother, primarily.  So blaming your daughter for the way she is is a little silly, IMHO.

All children are difficult in different ways.  Mothers, more so. 

If you wanted to fix this problem, you could, that's all.  But it starts with you and a true desire to fix it - not blame.  And that's what I've seen you doing to your daughter in your description. 

She'll probably be fine - most scapegoats turn out OK because the reason they're so angry is they see the true dysfunction in the family and they don't buy into it.  They escape. 

Why are you so worried about her, her friends, her - if she was an employee of yours, it sure feel like you were micromanaging her, instead of just letting her BE.  If you loved her, you'd love her the way she is -difficult and all.  If you don't love her, then there's probably a reason and it has to do with you growing up in an abusive family yourself, and not having been taught the capacity to love.  But you could learn this...if you wanted to.

Sorry, probably not the response you wanted to hear, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for unsympathetic mothers.  We are not all ready to be mothers, and deal with "difficult" children in the best way possible.  Hence, people come out all different in the end.  But it's no single person or events fault - certainly not the child's.  I think you've oversimplified that a bit.

pb

WRITE

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2006, 07:28:40 PM »
a few months ago when I was having yet more tantrum problems with my son ( they still surface periodically ) Hopalong suggested I might be oversimplifying his recovery from everything which has happened to our family, and pointed out that I need to be open-minded as to how long it's going to need.

I don't think good mother/ bad mother is helpful- we all do both. I don't know that I'm a good mother, I think I am a 'good enough' mother;
my son thinks I'm barely adequate quote/unquote " and that goes for Dad too!"  :)

I do always apologise to my son for the things I do wrong- not just because I want to set things right with us, but as an example, several people in my family cannot apologise and would say anything rather than "sorry"...  :(

adrift

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2006, 07:30:23 PM »
Penelope, I'll gladly read the book you suggested and if you read my posts carefully you'll see that I've already done lots of research and am doing more.  I wonder if you have children since you think it's "normal" for a child to constantly hate her sibling, hate her parents and rather "die with her friends", show blatant disrespect for parental authority and difficulty getting along in the world. Then again, in some circles that may be "normal" behaviour, but we live in a conservative, Christian area (the Bible Belt actually) where everyone still says "yes sir" and "yes ma'am" to their elders, where respect is still very much in vogue, where traditional family values are honored and practiced.  This was how she was raised and this is what we consider acceptable behaviour---not ranting, screaming, cursing, door slamming, peeling off in her car, telling her sister she hates her, telling her sister she wished she had died, physcially abusing her sister and threatening her if she told (which DD2 never did until months later),

 Before I had kids, I would have totally pointed the finger at the parents, got to be the parents fault, got to be. Right? Then I had kids, 3 of them and I've learned that no two kids are alike and that try as parents might, some kids are difficult.  Am I a perfect mother? Nope. Have I had anger issues? Yes. Did I use my DD1 as my "whipping boy" or scapegoat? Nope. Did I bend over backwards (an at this point I would say I actually tried too hard) to please her/help her/ show her love and support? Yep!  Should she be allowed to come in this home and berate her sister and cause havoc? No, she's 19 and that behaviour is not acceptable.   Is DD2 perfect? No, and she gets disciplined when necessary, is DS perfect? no he isn't and even though he has Down Syndrome, we expect him to behave to the ability he is capable.  

My dad was 1 of 8 kids and I can tell you that one of those kids (not my dad) turned out to be a mean, abusive alcoholic and 2 of the other brothers became church deacons. 1 of my dad's sisters had to go through years of ECT for mental illness, the other sister is rock solid, emotionally and physically.   I do believe that birth order and other factors, including parents, affect children, there is nurture and there is nature.  How nurture and nature work themselves out in each child is kind of a toss up.


Penelope, you say I micro manage my DD1.  Gee, that would seem hard to do when she lives away, comes home about once a month maybe, we pay for her car, her phone, her apartment, her tuition, and she lives as she pleases. The only requirement is that she work to pay for her gas and food.   So am I micromanaging to expect her to be nice to us when she does come home?

Adrift

penelope

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2006, 09:01:59 PM »
Yes, I think the feelings are all normal.  They're human feelings and your daughter is human.  Her acting out is very human and is a normal reaction to what she's been through.  Your anger is also a normal reaction to the abuse you've been through.  A therapist could help you with all this, but the desire for change comes from within.

I have had a lot of anger in the past, I know, I've been there, and I have an abusive mother and father.  You can make a choice for yourself and your family, a therapist is a great idea for you.  But hoping (or instructing) your daughter to go, isn't do anything for your relationship with her, I'd bet.

Not here to judge, I don't think it's my place.  You seem to be stuck, that's all. Stuck in anger and blaming.  Not saying I haven't been there, I certainly have.  But to heal from that, you got to admit some stuff to yourself - like maybe you weren't the perfect mother.  And that's OK too, you're human afterall. 

I feel you getting defensive so I don't think I'll respond more as it's not my place.

pb

penelope

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Re: Our daughter---VERY long, sorry
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2006, 09:26:03 PM »
hi suggare, how ya doing?  Feeling OK?  Are you feeling voiceless cause I noticed you didn't post anything.

pb