Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on July 21, 2006, 11:48:09 AM
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Hi,
I want to thank Mud, Sugarre, and Brigid. Your responses this morning on the "Racism Topic" thread have helped me so much to identify some of what's been going on within my own heart and mind these past couple days. I'm not posting on that thread because what I feel like I need to say has nothing to do with racism. On that topic, I absolutely agree with Mud's logical, rational assessment and definition of terms and only wish I could think that clearly.
Sugarre, I want to apologize to you for my flip remark re: your "chiming in". I can see that I'd made some false assumptions and wrong judgments about you and I'm sorry. I was wrong to do that. It's a rotten habit of mine to think that I can see the end from the beginning. My own narrowmindedness led me to assess that you were capitalize on RM's ...ermmm.... vulnerability. Your Dad sounds an awful lot like mine, who in many ways resembles Archie B. I, too, have been ashamed at his ignorance, but have loved him nonetheless.
Brigid, to me your words in your reply on the Racism thread are like apples of gold in settings of silver. My hope is to have a calm enough heart and mind to express myself as well without getting tripped up by overcharged emotions. All of the feelings appear in your writing, but under proper restraint. I respect and admire that so much.
I made several posts to the Victims of Narcs thread after it turned into a discussion of racism. Yesterday, I deleted those posts.
Not because my views had changed, but rather because I gave in to fear. Since then, I've interpreted my own behavior as "wimping out" and evidencing a real lack of integrity. I was afraid, and so I silenced myself. That's no one's responsibility but my own. However, I am seeing a definite pattern both in how some peoples' personalities and expressions bring out my strongest desires to speak up and conversely, how other folks' personalities and manners of expression bring out my desperate urge to flee.
Maybe there's not much point in even reviewing this now. But possibly, someone else might recognize aspects of his own "m.o." in what I'm trying to describe here.
When Plucky first raised the issue of racism, I was a bit dismayed that I hadn't taken issue with it myself, even privately, yet I zoned in instantly on her "pearls before swine" remark. I wondered what was wrong with me to not have been disturbed by it.
Next, what I thought I was observing was a combo of Plucky and Sugarre refusing to acknowledge that anyone could possibly remain silent on the issue of this alleged racist remark and still "care" about the issue. I identified with Hops when I perceived her as running around like a headless chicken trying to defend herself against these accusations of not taking a firm enough stand. (Please don't take offense, Hops. Headless chicken references may not be p.c., but it's the visual I got. I think you're wonderful and trying so hard to do/say the right things... I truly felt compelled to jump to your defense ~ in fact, the defense of the whole group ~ which I saw as being attacked).
I saved the posts which I deleted yesterday, because I was feeling so insecure about whether my approach was correct or not. This is how I'd expressed it what I thought and felt I was seeing:
I'm sensing a bullying dynamic here which I perceive as worthy of comment. This forum offers each of us an opportunity to express our voices as we see fit, so here I am to honestly say... I think it's just as abusive to berate people for not speaking up as it is to attempt to silence them.
What I saw initially was a racial reference, not a racial slur. (RM, I do not think that you are racist, either.)
I saw Plucky respond to RM with questions re: this reference, followed by RM's prompt reply giving further info based on her personal experience.
Enter Sugarre, who has shown an obvious distaste for other things that RM has had to say in the past, pouncing on this particular discussion and adding fuel to the flames. (I immediately wondered, Sugarre, whether you would have chimed in if someone other than RM had been involved.)
I think that those who would judge the mindset, intent, and motivation of an entire group based on how its members perceive an individual comment and whether or not they choose to respond, are just as intolerant and judgmental as any racist. That sort of biased thinking leaves no room for individuality of expression, but is based on narrowminded selfrighteousness just as much as any religious argument I've ever heard. We each have the privilege here to speak or not to speak, based on our own free will choice. Enlighten us by expressing your views... that's great. But you have no right to tell us how we should think or feel or what should be our truth.
Hope
And then along came Portia. The way in which I interpreted her post to me is what shut me down. I have not felt so voiceless in ages. Even now, I can "hear" her saying, as she has already said to Storm on the new Racism thread, "so what. Your opinion, not facts, who cares " That's one message which is so deeply engrained within me that it still creates a total shut down. I'm not blaming my own baggage on Portia, nor am I using my baggage as an excuse for my own mistakes/ errors in judgment. What I am doing is making a determination to overcome this truckload of fear. I wrote a post to Portia yesterday to express how I felt about what I viewed as her intrusion into the mix, purely for the sake of stirring the pot. I saved that post, too, and here it is:
Portia,
It's my perception, based on the interactions I've witnessed on this board, that you regularly tend to insert yourself into the midst of conflicts. My awareness of that pattern gives me great pause in even responding to you here, but I'm trying to view this as an exercise in better communication vs. hiding in my little corner. So here goes...
First of all, I am not in a position, nor is it my desire, to analyze the motivations behind anything you say; all that I have to work with here is my own observations of peoples' words and their patterns of relating. Personally, I tend to avoid conflict at all costs, and so part of my own healing is to push myself to speak up when I feel strongly about difficult issues. I felt strongly this morning about what I viewed as an attempt to bully and shame members into defending their views. I still do. I myself have done plenty of scurrying around in the past, trying to defend myself against the onslaught of other peoples' priority issues and their demands that I make their issues my own. I guess that's why I still tend to avoid those for whom I sense that conflict is a passion and a thrill. Because of that avoidance, I would not generally respond to your statements, but in the interest of further clarification, I'll try to express to you what I observed today.
I stated my view re: a conflict which had arisen in this thread. I always try to preface my posts with the phrase "I think, I believe, imo, it seems to me", or something to that effect. In fact, at the beginning of the final paragraph of my post which you've brought into question here, I did just that. I began that paragraph with the words "I think", with no intent of doing anything other than expressing my view, with full awareness that I do not manage this group. I'm not so sure that you are aware of that, though. Despite the fact that none of my comments were addressed to you, you took it upon yourself to pronounce to me the rules of communication on this board and ask my view of them. I interpreted that as your assertion of your position that I needed to be set straight and you were just the one to do it.
I replied by agreeing with your version of the guidelines and advising you that those same rules apply to you, as well. Why would I choose to point out to you what you claim to already know? Because it appeared to me that you'd delegated yourself to fill the role of board moderator and I found that to be quite presumptuous of you.
Portia, I believe that I made it clear that I was stating my own views in my post re: others who would try to tell me what I should think, and how I should respond. I do not believe that I broke any rules of this forum. It is certainly your prerogative to disagree with my view, but I'm not going to debate with you whether or not I should have expressed it. You see, I get the impression that you think you've taken the high road by expressing concern for the poster in question, as though that puts you into a position of moral superiority which entitles you to judge me. This whole thread, imo, is loaded with expressions of supposed moral superiority and judgment. I'm thankful to have a voice to express my disagreement with that.
But I couldn't stand it. I was literally sickened at the thought of what her reply might be, and what other fire my expression might draw from other corners. So I deleted. That is warped. I don't want to be warped. Nor do I want to be led around by the nose by my feelings, but in this case, both my opinion and my sentiments stand and I need to stand by them. I reallize that others may not care. My opinions, my perspectives, who cares. It doesn't matter. What matters to me is integrity and honesty and not running away from a challenge.
Re: the double-standard, which is the title of this thread after all.... that's what I see today when I read Portia on the Racism thread. Yesterday I used the words "You have no right" and she was ever so anxious to inform me that everyone has a right to say what he/she chooses. The last time I dealt with someone who applied the "rules" to everyone but himself, he was waving a knife in my face. The only knife Portia wields is her words and what I view as her thoughtless, self-centered, pompous, domineering manner of abusing others with them. I'm not going to be intimidated out of speaking my thoughts and my heart by someone who obviously uses anger as an excuse to not care about anyone but herself.
Thanks for listening.
Hope
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Well, you're definitely not running away from a challenge.
mud
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I'm going to take a risk and ask a question. Having grown up with Nparents, how can we break the cycle and not pass on/inflict Ncharacteristics/Nbehaviors to each other? Could we be unconsciously reacting the only way we know how without realizing the pattern?
Bones
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I like being viewed as a chicken, optional head.
I'm free-range.
Hope, I like Portia a lot partly because she uses words like Jackson Pollack, though that's also risky.
Over time, I've noted she can't hold a grudge for an hour. Underneath her apparent
rudeness I find a vulnerable, super-smart person whom I find quite loveable. I think
she goes blooey only when she's frustrated or somebody's gotten out of bounds, in
the sense of lecturing her instead of engaging, or being morally superior. But I'll quit triangulating.
I do understand how complex the mesh of personalities is, here or anywhere. I truuuuuly do.
How one person experiences another always comes through very unique filters and loops.
And nobody can make anybody like somebody else...that is true enough.
So I will be sending you both mushy love vibes because I like you too, Hope.
You are a profoundly sincere and gracious person, I can tell your effort to live
your values is completely heartfelt and genuine.
Hope things work out well...it will be a learning thing anyway.
love to you both,
Hoppingchicken
PS--Mud, Mud, Mud. :)
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Hope, I'm so sorry he was waving a knife in your face and I'm glad you got away from that horrible situation.
those for whom I sense that conflict is a passion and a thrill.
Whoa Hope!! Any possibility that you could be sensing incorrectly? You are certain of this? How do you do that?
The only knife Portia wields is her words and what I view as her thoughtless, self-centered, pompous, domineering manner of abusing others with them.
Could your view be off? Influenced by past events that seem similar...like she's seems similar to someone else maybe?
Is it possible she reminds you of that knife wielding person and you're actually fighting back then, only it's now and she's not him?
Have you ever used anyone's own medicine against them? Tried to shock them into hearing you by giving them a dose of what they've been dishing out?
I have. :oops: :oops: I know I have. Are you doing that now?
Hope, do you consider the manner, the words you've just written there about Portia to be thoughtful, unselfish, meek and totally unauthoritarian?? :shock:
I think double standard is a good title for your thread. Aren't we all capable of applying a double standard now and then? In high emotional states? When we're upset? As a reaction?
Not good excuses, I know. I don't have many. :roll:
Here's a biggie.....
Have you made Portia the enemy....the scapegoat.....the receptical of your fury?
Sela
PS: Ofcourse, my usual disclaimer. Don't answer a thing just because I asked. No need to for certain. Indeed, these questions are just for you to consider or discard, as you see fit. And I do not have any bad intentions toward you, no matter who you might think I represent or who you may have
decided I'm like or what you think of me, my motives, my manners or anything else. Think at will. Just be careful about how you express it (to avoid regrets, I mean, or at least....take it from one who gets big cases of foot in mouth disease quite regularly......that has been my experience sometimes).
Words can be like whips eh? Sorry you felt silenced yesterday (I know that's not my place to appologise for). I just feel sorry that that happened.
Here, especially.
PPS:
P? You ok? It's hot eh? Jeepers. A nice cool glass of ice tea would go good about now. 8) Lot's of ice. My poor dogs are unable to move. Fried.
Total opposite of frozen by fear.
I don't think you enjoy conflict or get a thrill from it. I think you feel passionate about stuff, just like lot's of people.
I don't think you are thoughtless or self-centred or pompous or your manner is domineering or that you abuse others.
You're not an abuser P, those were mean things to say and I bet it hurt to read it.
Not true. Don't believe it. Misplaced fury again, I suspect. Maybe I'm wrong. :roll: I don't know much. That's my bet.
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Thanks Hops :D I understand and I appreciate your views very much. Your loyalty to your friends is a very admirable quality and I hope that I can live up to your assessment of me.
I can wrap my mind around your description of Portia, but I don't "feel" it. For the purposes of understanding what makes me go blooey, I have to suspend assumptions and be a bit more objective. OK, alot more objective. I don't know how to say this without coming right out with it, so here goes... the concept of a loveable hothead just doesn't compute with me. When I think of someone who goes off at will and then forgets all about it in an hour, that seems like total irresponsibility to me, and quite shallow. In fact, people who behave like that are often the ones who appear to me to be striking the "morally superior" pose. Maybe it's about mirroring. I think that I do that, too. Which brings me to another observation. Nothing new or earthshattering, but isn't it true that a quality or characteristic we most dislike in another is often a trait that we detest within ourselves? Still working on that one. And here's something that's just now dawning on me. Why am I feeling this need to analyze what it is I'm finding so objectionable about a person in order to move on? I think because I learned avoidance from my mother. When someone rubbed her the wrong way, she simply wrote them off. There was no 3 strikes and yer out. No grace. Just ~ phhht... you were off the list of humanity. I don't want to be that way. Nor do I want to engage in verbal blows with someone who lies in wait to pick apart every word I say and if it comes to that, I guess I'll have to employ ignore, but I'd rather not. I'd like to clean my filters and straighten out my loops (is that a kind way of sayin I'm loopy, Hops?? :P) I am feeling a bit loopy now. Can I claim perimenopause? :shock: Where was I? Oh, yes. Well maybe this was all about saying how I feel and now my air is refreshed. Maybe I've managed to putrify Portia's air in the process and maybe that was selfish. I hope not. I know that there's always a risk that people with a personality conflict will step on each other's toes, but I was at the point of walking away from this forum because of my own sense of feeling threatened and I don't think that is all in my imagination. I don't know how to go on from here except to keep plowing ahead. No matter what, I know it's better than running away.
Hope
P.S. to Bones ~ I'd say that's exactly what is going on here... reacting the only way I learned how. What's different now is that it's not so unconscious. I realize it and I want to change it, not by sniping or blowing up but by approaching conflict with a cool head and a warm heart. Don't have either one nailed down yet, but working on it.
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Thanks Sela.
I'm glad and thankful also to have gotten away from N. T
hanks for your questions, too. As I've said throughout this post, everything I've written has been presented from my own perception. I believe that every human being's view is influenced by past events, including mine. I also believe that if we fail to learn from history, we are destined to repeat its mistakes. My view is all I have by which to guage reality. I can't allow the possibility that I may be mistaken to prevent me from moving forward and addressing issues which are vital to me. What I can do is my best to communicate clearly what is on my mind and heart, remaining receptive to new input as it comes along.
No, Sela, using someone's "own medicine" against them is not my style. I don't even like to watch people get hurt in movies. I am generally most likely to just quietly disappear rather than to try to teach anyone a lesson.
Sela, I consider the words I used here to be the truth as I know it. The truth is not always sweet and pleasant. Love does not always drip with sugary goo. Sometimes love speaks hard truths. Again, all I have is the truth as I perceive it to be.
Sela, you said: I think double standard is a good title for your thread. Aren't we all capable of applying a double standard now and then? In high emotional states? When we're upset? As a reaction?
I infer from this that you think I am holding a double standard here. One for myself and one for Portia. I disagree. I am not in a high emotional state. I am not upset or reactive. What I am is committed to not running away from conflict. Yesterday I was quite angry. That's why I deleted my posts. I didn't want to react in anger. Since I have no fury, I don't need a receptacle ... although that is quite a colorful image. Maybe you'd understand better if you could imagine that I have always been my own receptacle. That's a lonely existence. As I tried to express above, the only way I knew how to deal with perceived conflict was to avoid it. I have never raged. I'm not raging now... only trying to communicate. I have to assume that you're trying to do the same. Thanks for your thoughts.
Hope
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Hey CH:
Thanks for responding to me. That's better than employing ignore. I like that.
No, Sela, using someone's "own medicine" against them is not my style. I don't even like to watch people get hurt in movies. I am generally most likely to just quietly disappear rather than to try to teach anyone a lesson.
Hope, I'm not asking if this is your style or your usual approach. I'm asking if you have ever done it? Ever misbehaved in this way?
I'm not insinuating that this is something you would do on a regular basis. The point I'm trying to make is that we are all capable of behaving badly. Everyone is capable, I think.
I consider the words I used here to be the truth as I know it. The truth is not always sweet and pleasant. Love does not always drip with sugary goo. Sometimes love speaks hard truths. Again, all I have is the truth as I perceive it to be.
Fair enough. So this is your truth. I'm glad you said that. That makes a difference. It's not mine or Hops's
or whoever else's then. Good thing. I totally disagree that there is love in your words or that your truth is some kind of hard love. Do you mean to say you are trying to help Portia by insulting her? Giving her one of those "gifts" she mentioned awhile back.
I disagree with your methods, if that's the case. Your words seem to me to be an attack. Insulting. Degrading. Rude. Malicious. And not intended to help but to harm. To hurt. Sorry. That's my truth and it's how I percieve your words. Not meant to help you either. Just plain what I see.
I infer from this that you think I am holding a double standard here
I see your complaint about being silenced.....feeling like someone was trying to silence you.....feeling afraid to voice......and now......your clearly insulting, blunt, hurtful words to another member of this board.....as an attempt to silence....induce a fear to voice....etc as a certain double standard, yes. Fight fire with fire. It seems like you are trying to dole out what you felt??? I could be wrong about that, that's for sure. That's just what it looks like to me.
What I am is committed to not running away from conflict.
But Portia just enjoys it?
I think you have more in common with her than you may realize. Possible? Maybe eh? Maybe not?
I have always been my own receptacle. That's a lonely existence.
I'm sorry for that. I'm sorry for so many labels that get unfairly applied to people. You included. Portia too.
Those weren't fair, kind, loving or otherwise good labels you profess as truth. They were mean words. That's what I see and it's not like I've never said anything mean to anyone in my life either. I have. :oops:
I have never raged.
Sorry. Fury is probably the wrong word to have used. (I also get a picture of the lone ranger riding a black horse when I use that word. :roll: Fury can be a good thing, I think, too, sometimes).
That was the wrong label. I have no idea what you feel inside and sure do not mean to let on that I do.
I don't like the way you belittled Portia. Said she was abusing. And how you don't think it's abusive...what you said.
Seems like a double standard to me. I am trying to communicate. My truth.
Sela
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Hi again, Sela,
I guess I wasn't specific enough. I'll give it another try: No, I don't believe that I've ever used the tactic of giving someone a taste of his own medicine. I disagree with your description of that tactic as misbehavior, though. I understand that it can be quite a useful teaching tool with children. I've just never utilized it. That doesn't mean I'm not capable of behaving badly. I don't operate under any illusion of perfection. I think I've behaved badly every time I've walked away from confrontation because of fear. No one grows when conflicts are not faced directly.
I understand that you disagree with my approach, Sela. I don't need you to see things my way in order to respect you as a human being, nor do I require validation from you in order to trust my own sense and reason and follow through with what I believe is right. I think that's what makes us each individuals... being able to think for ourselves and act independently from either popular opinion or another individual who expresses a contrary view.
I see a contradiction in this statement of yours: I disagree with your methods, if that's the case. Your words seem to me to be an attack. Insulting. Degrading. Rude. Malicious. And not intended to help but to harm. To hurt. Sorry. That's my truth and it's how I percieve your words. Not meant to help you either. Just plain what I see.
In that paragraph, you seem to be telling me that you perceive me as wrong (rude, malicious, et al) for expressing "my truth" because I lack intent to "help". And yet in telling me that, you say that you are expression your truth, your perception of me, which you admit is not meant to help me either. But that's ok? I don't get it. Are you requiring that my expressions must be based on an intent to help someone whereas you are entitled to state whatever you see as your truth regardless of intent to help? Is that not your own double standard?
Hope
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Hey again Hope.
In that paragraph, you seem to be telling me that you perceive me as wrong (rude, malicious, et al) for expressing "my truth" because I lack intent to "help".
Nope. I'm saying your words are rude, malicious, etc. Not you.
You are a good person, I bet.
And yet in telling me that, you say that you are expression your truth, your perception of me, which you admit is not meant to help me either. But that's ok?
Nope. I'm not telling you my impression of you. My impression of you is that of someone who is bravely standing up for something. I just don't like the way you're doing it. I don't like you using mean words to another member. I'm expressing my dislike of your behaviour of choosing hurtful words to use against another, not you.
You are probably a fine human being. I don't know you well enough to say much else. I bet you're ok, though. Just like most people.
I don't get it. Are you requiring that my expressions must be based on an intent to help someone
Nope. I'm challenging your insinuation that that's what they were meant as. I don't believe it's the best way to help others....by using mean words. That's all. It's not any kind of direction. It's my opinion.
whereas you are entitled to state whatever you see as your truth regardless of intent to help?
Are we talking about rights now? How did we get here? Ok. Let's talk about rights.
Are we all entitled to say whatevertheheck pops out of our mouths/fingers to eachother here?
Are we required to have intention to help, whenever we speak?
Is there some kind of happy medium???? (oh...for the love of happy mediums!! :D :D)
I think, you were insinuating that you were trying to give hard love to Portia, with your mean words. Is that what you mean was your purpose? If so, I don't like the way you did that.
Is that not your own double standard?
I can see how you interpreted my words as meaning some kind of definition of you, which they are not meant to be, and how you might see that as a double standard. Not what I meant. Not you....your behaviour. Your method. Your specific words. I find abusive. Rude. Malicious.
Sorry if you think I mean you.....are those things. I don't. You are a good person, I very much bet.
Sela
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her words and what I view as
It's ok for you to say someone's words are abusive but not ok for me to say yours are?
I see that as a double standard.
Now I am trying to help. Do you see what I mean?
Is there a better way you can think of to communicate besides labelling someone as thrill-seeking and calling someone's words all kinds of fancy adjectives?
You didn't like it when I called your words "rude, malicious, degrading, abusive"...did you?
This is not a tactic. It's just what I realized seems to have happened here. :idea: :idea:
Sela
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OK, Sela... I think I see. This is becoming a bit dizzy-making, but I'll continue for as long as I'm able.
You said, "I think, you were insinuating that you were trying to give hard love to Portia, with your mean words. Is that what you mean was your purpose?"
Wow, I had to look up the word "insinuate", because it carries such negative connotations in my mind. Per Webster online, the definition is: To introduce or otherwise convey (a thought, for example) gradually and insidiously.
Insidiously = more negative connotations. Per Webster again: Working or spreading harmfully in a subtle or stealthy manner: insidious rumors; an insidious disease.
Intended to entrap; treacherous: insidious misinformation.
Beguiling but harmful; alluring: insidious pleasures.
So basically you're asking me, was I trying to be treacherous? The answer is no.
I'm going to drop all the "seem tos" and "my impressions" and other supposedly pc expressions which leave room for ambiguity and try to give the reader's digest version of what I see happening in this convo between you and me, Sela.
You have accused me of not playing "nice". My response to that is ~ "nice" is not always the answer. There's been nothing insidious or insinuating about anything I've tried to express here. In fact, I'm being as direct as I know how. Sometimes confrontation is necessary. In confronting difficult issues, the truth is not always so pleasant. I have described how I felt ~ bullied and dominated. From what I've seen on a concurrent thread on this board, the bullying and raging continue, so I know this is not just something I've fabricated. I didn't think you were trying to define me, Sela... no problem there. I just think you'd like me to shut up :) Since I don't know of any other way to explain my position than what I've already said to you, I'll do just that for now.
Hope
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Certain Hope, I just checked in again and my, I just love being talked about! Hey you can't see my face, my body, you don't know if I'm joking or serious, antagonistic or calm.
I'm calm and I'm genuinely, sincerely, honestly very glad to see you posting and yes - saying exactly what you think about my posts, about our exchange yesterday.
Okay, I admit, I skipped down this page real fast, because i thought 'oh-oh, I might get an emotional response come up if I read all this' ..... so I haven't read in depth.
I just let one idea, one thought, dominate as I saw you respond and post and that was:
great. You've got guts and determination and staying power and the ability to discuss, to reflect.
Very opinionated and judgemental of me to say those things, who am i to judge you?
Nobody. But you judge me don't you? (That's okay, your opinion.) So I judge you and I like it that you've come back. I do. Maybe hard to believe?
I would hate to think that anyone left because of some garbage I'd posted, because that would be sad. Not my fault, but a person who leaves ...makes me sad. Someone who will turn their back and walk away. Anyway, I'm glad you're not like that.
I won't read your posts now but I will, and try to see if I can imagine how you felt, how you think. I'll try real hard not to take anything personally. Okay? And even if I am hurt or upset, I'll try and say the 'I' phrases and communicate with intent to resolve any misunderstanding.
note: Yes I have history with others here. Some of us have been here for years so we have shared a lot. You can see when we joined from our profiles I think. Imagine if you were here talking to me in two years' time! We'd probably know each other better and some things we could reduce to shorthand; which might confuse others. Time does play a part in how people react to each other. You get to know someone better - even in cyberspace - over time i think.
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Sounds like a plan, Portia.
I'm calm too, so we should do well.
Hope
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Hi again Hope:
Certainly not! Do not shut up!! I hate that expression! Keep talking!
By the word insinuate, I simply meant....imply. I did not take the word or use the word to mean the full and total definition and absolutely did not think of it as meaning treacherous, nor was I trying to insinuate that about you.
Nope. Not what I meant at all.
Aren't words tricky??
I agree with you that confronting is sometimes necessary. I just disagree, that we have to be mean about it.
I can agree to disagree.
I think maybe you'd like me to shut up?? No prob. For now. Maybe I'm wrong about that? Wouldn't be the first time. :roll:
Sela
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Sela, I do think it's likely that you and I have gone as far as possible in this particular discussion. For myself, I'm about at my limit of taking in any new thoughts or words at the moment :shock: One thing, though... since the meaning of words has come up here... I attach alot of import to the meaning of words, so to me there is a huge difference between imply and insinuate. Now that I know you don't do that, I won't take it too seriously, although I may on occasion point out the actual definitions (hopeless dictionary addict here). Anyhow, re: the meaning of words.... to me, in order for words to be "mean" they have to be delivered with intent to harm. The words in and of themselves are not "mean". They may be unpleasant, undesireable, unflattering, but not mean... unless used as a weapon. It's all about the intent, I think. Case in point: imply vs insinuate. I'd offer you a Hershey bar if you were here. With almonds. Break time from this topic!! Thanks.
Hope
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Thanks for the chocolate Hope. I love it!! :D
I'd send over a beer, at this point, as I'd much rather toast than tossle. :D
(oooo :shock: beer and chocolate? maybe not. maybe an coffee with Bailey's or something??)
Yep. Words can have a number of meanings and even mean different stuff to different people. Easy to misinterpret too eh? I appreciate that you are a dictionary addict. I'm almost the opposite. I feel like my vocabulary is very limited and I have look words up sometimes. I pick the wrong ones sometimes. I'm just not the greatest at communicating. Trying to improve on that too.
Intent matters to me big time too, Hope. I agree with you there. It's important stuff.
Think about, maybe, if you feel like it, different possibilities of Portia's intent....yesterday?? Intent can also be misinterpreted can't it?
Have a nice break. :D
Sela
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ooo... No beer for me, thanks... on the wagon for 2 years now, thank God. But chocolate is so invigorating, here I am again.
Just to point out... I never did judge Portia's intent, only told my perception of her actions. In fact, at some point throughout all of the many words exchanged here, I believe that I specifically said, it was not my place to judge anyone's intent or motivation.
I can only speak of my own responses, with the full awareness that they're colored by a variety of factors, including past events and current mood swings. Which is why.... I didn't follow through with any responses yesterday. Enjoy your brew :)
Hope
on edit: eeek... Sela, I came back because I just realized that my "oooo" and closing "enjoy your beer" might come across sounding like an indictment against drinking. Not at all! I'm not against drinking for anyone but me. 'Twas a sincere, "Enjoy!" Hope
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Congratulations on 2 years of sobriety!! Good for you Hope!!
Nope. No beer in the house. I'm not on a wagon though. I just like riding in them. :D (I live in the country).
I never did judge Portia's intent, only told my perception of her actions.
Really?
I sense that conflict is a passion and a thrill.
So this is not how you see her intention for indulging in conflict? To get a thrill? To satisfy a passion?
Hmmmm. I must be misunderstanding then. Sorry Hope.
I believe that I specifically said, it was not my place to judge anyone's intent or motivation
I believe you. (not going back to look...just taking your word for it). However, that is not how your statement came across to me (about Portia having a passion and getting thrills from conflict). I see that as a statement about part of the intent for getting involved in conflicts and I just don't think that's true.
As for yesterday, I'm just suggesting you reassess but ofcourse, that's up to you to decide.
(Sorry for all this talking about you P. That slipped my brain entirely. :oops: How the heck do I know what your intent is/was or what give you a thrill or what your passions are?? I'm just going by my personal view of you. Correct me, if I'm wrong please.)
Ok. Gotta go do stuff. I'm glad you decided not to be silent too Hope. Even if I have complaints about the words. Bottom line. This isn't anything really to do with me and I have no place yapping about it. Maybe Portia wasn't even offended by what you wrote? How do I know? I felt offended for her, I guess. Silly eh? :roll:
Sela
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on edit: eeek... Sela, I came back because I just realized that my "oooo" and closing "enjoy your beer" might come across sounding like an indictment against drinking. Not at all! I'm not against drinking for anyone but me. 'Twas a sincere, "Enjoy!" Hope
Oooo Hope. As could my "no beer in the house". Nobody here drinks it, is all. I love red wine though. And Sangria. No worries.
Enjoy you're afternoon/eve too. :D
Sela
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Could you please send the bartender over here? I really need a drink to stop my head from spinning.
Brigid
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Sela, Folding laundry here and little tidbits keep coming to mind. This is none of my business, but I'll ask anyway and you can certainly decline to respond, of course. Are you the one who mentioned the convo on the Victims of Narc thread to P. yesterday? See, this is the way my mind works. I just remembered that when P entered the convo there, she said that she hadn't been reviewing the board but became aware of the discussion when someone told her privately.
Hope
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Pouring you a cup of tea, Brigid :) I consider this quite a test of my own sobriety, so I can relate!
Hope
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Yep. That was me. I told her something about myself in regard to that thread. Something in my head.
I guess she looked in there after that.
Sela
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I think she may have meant, by mentioning that someone had pointed the thread out to her, that she wasn't reading and sitting in the background, lurking...so to speak. I'm not sure.
Sela
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Thanks, Sela. I'd noticed that you seemed particularly intense in your objections to my impression of P as barging in on threads for the sake of participating in/engendering conflict. It occurred to me that this might be due to some extra sense of responsibility on your part for her having spoken there in the first place. Nothing wrong with that at all, it just explains some of your vehemence here. And as I said when I first began this thread hourrrsssss agooooo.... I know that I have a bad habit of assuming/presuming. I had this impression long before yesterday, but I realize that it was a vague impression only, based on very limited knowledge of the facts. I do tend to rush to hasty judgments. Maybe P and I will have an opportunity to discuss this aspect of it further at some point. In the meanwhile, I'm learning as I go here, both about myself and others. Already I can see the benefits of this sort of discussion, involved as it can get, as opposed to slamming the door on communication and settling for my own perception of things, unwilling to allow that to be changed. Thanks again :)
Hope
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Hi Hope,
vehemence
That's a pretty heavy duty word isn't it?
Nope. Never dawned on me until you mentioned it now, that IIIIIIII am responsible for P's involvement here.
You're right! If I hadn't mentioned something that was in my head to P, she would not have looked in over on the Vict of N thread, nor would she have felt obligated to explain why she hadn't commented before then
(or maybe she just meant she too cares but wasn't following the thread...whatever)
And...she wouldn't be involved, probably, with this "discussion" either (sorry again for talking "about" you P. I don't know how else to put it. I know it bugs you).
yep. all my fault. Thanks for pointing that out. I just sent an appology by pm.
However, my response to you on thissssss thread has been entirely based on my opinion that you chose to use abusive words, when it was neither necessary, nor likely helpful to anyone and I don't think I was acting out of any sense of feeling responsible for anyone in particular, other than, yes, P is my friend, so I'm sure that has an influence, but I bet...I just bet....I might have piped up...had you used those words toward another member....but I can't be sure because I'm not a person person gifted with profound insight.
I'm not concerned about what your impression of anyone is. I do, however, not like you labelling people as having intentions that they may not have and your choice of abusive words. That is where my passion lies. I am being clear about that. I don't always post about it when I see it. Sometimes I do. Today I am. Tomorrow might be different.
A I'm learning as I go here, both about myself and others. Already I can see the benefits of this sort of discussion, involved as it can get, as opposed to slamming the door on communication and settling for my own perception of things, unwilling to allow that to be changed. Thanks again .
Same here.
:D Sela
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Sela,
vehemence, per Webster: Characterized by forcefulness of expression or intensity of emotion or conviction; fervid: a vehement denial. See Synonyms at intense.
Marked by or full of vigor or energy; strong: a vehement storm.
It's just another matter of perception, but yes, I'd say the word fits.
I did not say that you are responsible for P's involvement anywhere or in anything. I said that it had occurred to me that you might feel some sense of responsibility. I did not place any blame on you. And now I'm getting the impression that you feel tricked somehow. Not by me. But as you said, you're not concerned about my impressions of anyone.
Sela, you have made it abundantly clear that you believe I've labeled P. and that you feel I've used abusive words. I couldn't disagree more and I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I'm glad we've had a chance to attempt some direct communication :D
Hope
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This "impression" of yours caught my attention:
someone who obviously uses anger as an excuse to not care about anyone but herself
You belittle a person's feelings
You decide their motivation/intention for feeling (as if people feel stuff purposely or use their feelings for a purpose and you......because you're so special and are able to see inside people's brains......can determine this easily, it's so obvious eh?, and gee, how silly of the rest of us not to see it ?) Obviously!!
You proclaim what's in a person's heart like you have special powers to know.
And you label them, insult, all in the name of "hard love"?
My concern is that you are bullying with words.
Please stop.
Here's a couple definitions for ya:
depreciate: 1 : to lower in estimation or esteem
2 a : to lower the price or estimated value of
You can try but I doubt you'll be able to accomplish that with Portia.
You are, however, doing a good job of making yourself look pretty mean, cold..how about cruel?
condescension: 1 : voluntary descent from one's rank or dignity in relations with an inferior
2 : patronizing attitude or behavior
Keep trying. Good luck. That's a high spot to climb down from.
Your last post dismissed me. Salute!! 8)
Sela
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Sela,
I didn't dismiss you. I rejected your view of this situation, just as I now reject your assessment of me.
I have been revealing myself on this board for some time, and I don't believe it's accurate or reasonable to reduce me to the sum total of this current conflict.
I never said that I was doing anything " in the name of 'hard love' ". Don't put words into my mouth, Sela.
I've said quite openly that I have trouble with conflict and that my goal is to learn how to stop being overcome by fear of this sort of verbal exchange. I've also said quite openly that I'm aware of my own inclination to assume/presume. I don't want to overcome just enough of my fear of conflict that I'm left with resorting to sniping, sarcasm, subtle insinuations, behind-the-scenes gossip, or any other forms of passive aggressive behavior. My goal is complete resolution so that I can be assertive and not aggressive. I realize that I have not yet met that goal, Sela, but I am trying.
I've pursued this exchange with you here on this thread in an effort to learn how to communicate more effectively instead of shutting down and closing off myself. I now believe that it was a mistake for me to continue discussions with you. I believe that I should have stopped that early on and specifically invited Portia to have a direct exchange, at her discretion. I wasn't at the point of even being able to consider that initially. This is all a new learning process for me and it's not a comfortable position to be in... opening myself up to all sorts of misunderstandings. But Sela, I didn't initiate this post in order to judge, rant, or patronize. I'm getting the feeling that's what you want to do to me, and at me. That's not a judgment of you, a pronouncement upon you, or exhibition of any special powers I think I have to see inside peoples' brains, Sela. It's my feeling. Because of that feeling, and because you don't seem to hear me, but rather I find you putting words into my mouth, it looks like we've reached the end of our ability to communicate.
Portia, I don't know what you think. I don't know whether you see what I've said here as being "mean". I'd like to know. If you are interested in trying to come to some further understanding of what we might both be able to learn from this, I'd like to engage in that. I'm not trying to tell you that you need to learn anything, but I know that I do! I won't be able to respond further till this evening though. Will be away from the computer for the next 8 hours or so. Thanks.
Hope
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Hope,
Sometimes love speaks hard truths.
The beauty of the written word is that one can always go back and find the actual reference, unless, ofcourse, it gets deleted. I took this to mean something akin to hard love. I can rephrase if you like and insert this exact quote of yours, if that would work better for you. Makes no diff to me.
All in the name of sometimes love speaks hard truths!
I now believe that it was a mistake for me to continue discussions with you.
I don't doubt it.
I'm glad we've had a chance to attempt some direct communication
We've had. Attempt. We tried. Past tense. Implies it's over. Dismissive.
it looks like we've reached the end of our ability to communicate
Nope. It looks like you're dismissing me again. 2nd Salute then! 8) 8)
Look, no hard feelings from me to you. Good go at trying to resolve conflict. I'm not into conflict. I'm more into treating people the way I'd like to be treated. I don't like it when I see what I've pointed out to you here and if I'm feeling strong enough.....I say so. That's it. Take it or leave it. Learn from it or reject it. It won't effect me one bit.
So have a nice 8 hours and rest of weekend. I'm off to do errands!! It's finally cooled off here!! Lovely!! :D 8)
Sela
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by the way,
Not meant to help you either.
I'm sorry I wrote that. I apologize.
In the long run, that statement is the opposite of my truth.
Sela
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Hi
Sela, no worries about talking about me in this context. Seems to me like you’re discussing and I just happen to be part of the topic, or the initial ‘cause’ of a larger effect and as such, I don’t feel it’s ‘me’ being talked about…sorry, can’t explain better right now. I guess this Portia person isn’t really ‘me’ as I am right now…aren’t we all many different people sometimes…I mean, we can stand outside ourselves and look at our actions and even – look at our thoughts and feelings – and see them as from a different vantage point; the ability to self-reflect and see a different view.
Which kind of leads to: when I do read this thread from page 1, I think I better remember that the P, Certain Hope, the P you were talking about is the one who had just posted to Storm. So I’ll try and look at that P as a separate person and see what I think of her behaviour in that one instance, treat it completely apart from anything else, as though that P had not posted before, had simply arrived and posted that one thing. Does that sound reasonable?
Because if what you’ve said is based on my past posts (I still haven’t read all this thread), then I’ll need to consider my behaviour in the posts you’re considering in your opinions. I don’t know all your ‘experiences’ of me that are coming together in your mind to make up the version that is in your head. Hope that’s not too obscure a way of putting it.
Anyway, I read what you said:
Portia, I don't know what you think. I don't know whether you see what I've said here as being "mean". I'd like to know. If you are interested in trying to come to some further understanding of what we might both be able to learn from this, I'd like to engage in that. I'm not trying to tell you that you need to learn anything, but I know that I do! I won't be able to respond further till this evening though. Will be away from the computer for the next 8 hours or so. Thanks.
Thank you Certain Hope. The fact that you say you’d like to know what I think is hugely encouraging to me (some might say ‘that’s my opinion, take it or leave it and I don’t care what you think’…and they’d actually mean it, deep in their psyches they want you to just leave them alone….fear I guess…ah…that’s my stepdad again, very much a ‘my way or the highway’ kind of guy and I guess, afraid of me..hmm).
It’s possible that there’s something for me to learn from your words and I like learning. Have to get myself in the right frame of mind though to see constructive criticism and respond to it appropriately. Can’t see the wood for the trees sometimes. Time distance helps and letting the emotion subside so I guess I might be back here tomorrow or Monday. Hope that’s okay. I’ll probably read and consider and re-read. Sort of take it on the chin first, then evaluate my responses, then read from your point of view (seeing that P person as some wayward idiot I can criticise for myself) then think about how to communicate whatever it is I think by then with you. Did I read you were dizzy somewhere? And that you’d reached a limit for the time? I often feel like that: my brain fills up and I have to take time to process all the possibly conflicting thoughts and feelings. Holding two conflicting ideas in my head at the same time – that reminded me of ‘double-think’ in 1984 (which I’ve never read). But apparently the ability to do that – see both sides I guess – is one humans can develop and improve on, which is an optimistic idea I like.
Okay I’m rambling, I better go. And here 20 miles north of London, it’s rained at last and the temperature has plummeted :D. Thank goodness!
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Actually, P, you are one of the bravest and most gracious people I know.
You have a deep courtesy, I feel.
What generosity of spirit there must be in your to look past incendiary tone or word choice and be so thoughtful as you are, to invite more dialogue, to be willing, as you seem so often to be willing, to keep doing dialogue even when it's difficult, to get at more truth.
I admire you. Your thinking is so respectful of realities.
Even when you get mad,to me there's something clean and honest in the way you express it. You don't "spew" or go toxic. You don't name-call, you just say WOOF! It's clear, then it's over.
(I knew an Irish Wolfhound when I had a job painting fences out in the country years ago. He was a very funny dog the size of a pony. He caught on that most people were taken aback by his size and deep roaring bark--though in fact, he was gentle as a lamb. But new people would throw up their arms and back off going AAACKK! when he would go lumbering up to say hello.
So...Paddy (I didn't name him!) would hide in the boxwoods at the end of the long drive when he saw a car coming down the road, instead of standing out in the yard barking like most dogs would. He would lie low until the VERY last minute, when the poor person had left their car, shut the door, and was already past the halfway point up the path to the front door...and THEN Paddy would suddenly fling himself through the bushes and put his face in their face and bark (reminded me of the sound of a very large engine coming to life) wooowoofroarroar and the poor person would just about keel over.
It was terrible behavior, but it was so funny that we (the farm owner's family & summer help) would just about die laughing watching Paddy set them up. It still makes me laugh 30 years later. The owner was just devastated when Paddy died.)
Portia, ummm. I don't think I'm comparing you to an Irish wolfhound, but I'm not entirely sure! :D
I've gotta go, check in tomorrow night.
Hops
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Hope, you're speaking truth. Don't let a verbal battering turn you away from it. Look at the pattern here. Not just on this thread and not just with you, but at the overall pattern. You're getting the same thing I got on a previous pair of threads - and you're getting it for the same reasons: you've had the nerve to talk about something imperfect in the dynamics here, because you are trying to grow and change and in order to do that you must first become aware and understand.
Go back and check out the empathy and patience threads; you could cut and paste responses right in here from the responses to me on those threads. The same people, the same sniping and bullying, the same apparent desire to have a fight rather than think nondefensively about the topic. Over and over, world without end. It's like a machine, a reflex, and when you see it that way, it's incredibly sad. When there's neither growth nor change in someone's responses, they're probably not interested in growing or changing. Repeat after me: When there's neither growth nor change in someone's responses, they're probably not interested in growing or changing.
So consider the return on your investment. As long as you yourself get value - further clarity, insight, perspective, practice standing up for yourself, practice speaking civilly to people who are intentionally bullying and provoking you - from continuing to articulate what you believe or perceive here, it's still worth doing. And remember the 'cloud of witnesses' - the lurkers who never post, but benefit hugely from those who do. Every step forward that you take could be an 'aha' experience for a hundred souls keeping you silent company in cyberspace. You'll never know that here, but we don't stop here. You'll know it there.
Once you reach the point of diminishing returns, you may do better to invest your effort more selectively, focusing on people who can be reached by it. That's what Plucky meant with her quote about the pearls, I think. And I suspect it's what He meant by it in the first place.
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hiya -
Storm and Hope - I was wondering as I was drinking my coffee and reading all these thread, I felt no desire to respond, until now, and that's cause I wanted to ask Hope a question:
Does anything here remind you of a past experience, like maybe you were left out by siblings or friends at school on some occasion? In other words, what's triggering the strong emotions?
And then I thought of one for you too Storm:
Hoping for change is incredibly powerful isn't it? It's the force that keeps driving us to respond, even when we don't want to.
I was wondering kind of quietly why I had no desire to respond (until now). none. In that past I'd feel like jumping to someone's defense, or stating my experience (I guess I did a little, back on the original thread), or feeling Something, anything.
I think it's progress for me but I'm not sure. gee, I hope it's not detaching (unless of course that would be a good thing in this case?).
Anyway, if anyone who hasn't responded or who has has some thoughts on this, I'd be glad to hear them. Was anyone else feeling a similar way? Maybe moonlight was, sometimes I can just sense in your posts moon - you seem calm, or unaffected, or serene or patient or something... maybe tired?
take care all,
pb
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nothing wrong with detaching from a toxic process once you see it as toxic, pb.
congrats, and I honestly mean it! and yes, the hope for change is what keeps most of us stuck to Ns, or other abusers.
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Hi Storm,
At the moment, I'm feeling a bit overinvested, and yet hopeful. Thanks for reminding me about the cloud of witnesses :)
Truly, the thought that someone besides me could learn and progress through this struggle is quite an encouragement. This level of exposure is extremely difficult for me to maintain... kinda like standing naked in the midst of Times Square. Might not be so bad if I weren't aware... but I am.
Stormy, I want you to know that I have seen the pattern... the defensiveness, the sniping, and the word-twisting. The pattern is what intimidated me so. Past tense. This is a new season.
And I thank you for sharing your thoughts with me, Stormy. I admire your tenacity, your strength and courage, your sense of the truth. I hope you'll understand why I don't think I should go back to old threads to copy and paste. That new season thing and all. New wine into old wineskins? I dunno... long day.. running low on descriptive terms. Waiting for coffee to refresh :) Oh, I agree with you also re: detaching from toxic processes. I never sought or anticipated a bunch of folks coming onto this thread to choose sides... not at all. I crawled out on this limb alone, with no expectations that anyone else should join me on this little pilgrimage.
TT ~ I'm sorry about your back! Even if it's just a few words, I always look forward to reading you.
Pb ~ I'll have to give your questions further thought. I haven't really tried to analyze the emotional aspect of this yet, other than the emotion of fear. What I felt compelled to address was my own fear of conflict, not the emotions which contributed to that conflict. Perhaps I've taken a backwards approach, but that's how it's come about.
More later.
Hope
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Hello Hope
Not to worry, I didn't mean **you** should cut and paste from old stuff.
I meant - and wasn't clear enough - that some of the patterns **I've** had to deal with here are now recognizable, to me, as very repetitive, so much so that instead of people writing new posts to me today, they could go back and copy their old posts from a month ago and they'd be almost identical in tone and intent, even though some details are different.
And I meant that you seemed to be getting similar patterns here.
That cycling pattern thing is what I'm fighting to break free of. And most of the fight is within me. Learning to truly let go, give up, move on. Yes, I had this in my FOO. Big time. Up to my neck in it. Because I couldn't bring myself to give up on family members, but eventually I had to do it.
Your own internal battle is different, I know, but it may include the cycle-breaking. I wish you absolute and total victory. Does it help any if I say I think you are very, very brave?
Hugs
PS the cloud of witnesses is something I've had to make my peace with several times. They see us warts and all. Good for the humility, if nothing else.
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OK. I was just wondering aloud that's all.
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Thanks, Pb ... Wondering is a good thing, I think. And I know the rest of the baggage re: emotions will come to me in time, just for now... every time I read here, I see something else, like interior pieces of the puzzle, but I don't have the outer frame completed yet. Something else, too... always in the back of my mind I have this threat alarm going off. Warning, warning... if you word something incorrectly it'll get picked apart like roadkill by turkey vultures. Sorry about the imagery, but that's exactly how it feels to know for a fact that anything you put into print can be ripped out of context and warped. I know where my heart is in all of this though. I don't want to bring harm to anyone. I am not cruel, or vindictive, sarcastic, or phony. I simply want to stop being afraid and in order to accomplish that, I have to stick with the truth, regardless of the risk.
Stormy, I get it... oops. I guess when tired, I think more literally. Sorry about that... I see now. And I know what you mean about the cycle. Sometimes it takes a swerve and a crash to be able to forge a new path. Thanks for the hugs, too. Most welcome, indeed!! ((((((Stormy)))))) The truth will make us free.
Hope
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Hope, have you read Pilgrim's Progress? I'm going to dig out my copy and re-read it tonight. Thanks, thanks for reminding me of it. By talking about new paths...
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
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This really touched my heart and brought tears to me:
note: Yes I have history with others here. Some of us have been here for years so we have shared a lot. You can see when we joined from our profiles I think. Imagine if you were here talking to me in two years' time! We'd probably know each other better and some things we could reduce to shorthand; which might confuse others. Time does play a part in how people react to each other. You get to know someone better - even in cyberspace - over time i think.
It doesn't get much more beautiful than that in an exchange between two human beings! I'm proud of you all, for stating your differing views and not taking the "flight" tactic from communication! I see growth in us ALL! Bravo and Praise the Lord!
Love you all,
Laura- ReallyME
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Stormy, Not since fourth grade. It's definitely past time for a review!
1John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment,
and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
Hope
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Hi pb and all ,
What I feel right now is I am tired and hold a great deal of love in my heart for all of us.
I have found if I look inward for answers with love and not outward with blame etc that always gets me to a better place.
Of course you have to protect yourself but once that is done and you understand labeling others can get :( into a cycle or pattern that does not help.
I am tired I have a loved one not feeling well right now and I AM SAD. :(
Love to All,
MoonLight
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I'm sorry you're feeling sad Moon. Hope you are feeling better soon.
(((Moon)))
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Hi Moon,
Love is a verb. It's not a place, it's not just a feeling. It's a doing.
To love yourself means to see things as they really are, and deal with them as best you can, because otherwise you're not telling yourself the truth, and there's nothing loving about telling lies to anyone - not even to one's self.
Sometimes people have to look at things that aren't very nice, because sometimes, sadly, that's just the way things are. Hiding it or hiding from it just prolongs the problem.
Would you really be better off if you were still trying to get your father to love you? I know you know the answer to that. Admitting he's incapable of love was painful, but aren't you in less pain now - from him - than you ever were before? I know you know the answer to that too.
Sorry you have a loved one who is unwell. And to come here and find us all up to our knees in mess has to be a downer too. Hang in there. We will all get through this. We may not come out all holding hands and singing, but we will get through it.
((((((((((Moon))))))))))
((((((((((Mountainspring))))))))))
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I ditto what Storm just said, including the hugs all around. Stormy, I think you have amazing patience.
For the record, I did not think that what I posted here was "labeling" anyone. All of the labeling I've seen here on this thread has come from Sela. That's just a matter of fact in my book. Also for the record, I think it's good and wise and healthy to be up front and above board about these sorts of things, not underhanded and fake. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are downright deceitful. What I originally expressed has been so twisted out of shape, taken out of context, and distorted by Sela that it's barely recognizable. That's where the labelling and character assassination are coming from, not from me.
Portia, I did not intend to be "mean" or to hurt you. I am sorry if you are feeling damaging pain because of anything I said. I hope that any pain we all might experience through this will be growing pains, positive and healthy. Nothing I expressed was done with the spin that Sela tried to put on it, but I am definitely aware of how one person's distorted view can discolor and taint an entire picture. I am sorry, Portia, that you became the focus of all this and I wish only the very best for you. Read the entire thread, don't read the entire thread, however it seems best for you. Get to it when you want to or not at all, as far as I'm concerned it's run its course. Even now, I can see my sentences pasted in a reply with a sarcastic comment following. Not by you, Portia. But it's simply not worth it. I truly am sorry for my ignorance and lack of social skills. I feel like RM now... I am not a racist. I am not a meanie. This is such a farse.
RM... I'm glad you posted here. You reminded me of the bigger picture, which I lost sight of in the quicksand of all these words. If this whole deal doesn't wind up bringing glory to God, then it's not only an utter waste of time, it's wrong. I got so busy defending my principles, I forgot Who I'm supposed to represent.
Hope
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Portia, didn't want to edit and leave room for doubt re: any changes I'd made to my last post, so here I am again...
I said, "I am sorry, Portia, that you became the focus of all this and I wish only the very best for you."
I want to change that because it sounds like you got here by accident. I take full responsibility for that part of it, So: I am sorry that I put you into this position of being the focus of all this. And I most definitely do wish only the very best for you.
Hope
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Aw CH, thank you for sayin that. How sweet of you. Blessya
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Certain Hope, I will paste your words here, the better for me to reply to you and sconsdier your words aas I type, I hope that way of posting is okay with you, if not, you can tell me of course. Just one post right now - and a big doggy smile to Hops whose post I read (is it here? i think so) and which made me grin from ear to ear, I liked it Hops, thank you! - anyway where was I:
Portia, I did not intend to be "mean" or to hurt you. I am sorry if you are feeling damaging pain because of anything I said. I hope that any pain we all might experience through this will be growing pains, positive and healthy.
I still haven't read pages 1 and 2 BUT I know you were respoding to what I said to Storm. What I said to Storm was meant for Storm and the words I used and the tone I used were particularly intended for Storm - and not for anyone else. Why do I say that? Becasue your reaction, i think, is about how I react to Storm. Well, how I react to Storm is about me, and her. It's not about how I react to you. Do I react to everyone like that? i don't think so.
I think I love this question most of all the questions I can think of: "why?"
In any situation, in any sense, the word 'why' gets us going deeper, looking foir understanding.
So don't worry about what you've said back there. I don't feel at all damaged or hurt by anything you've said before and I doubt very much i will now, because I'm getting more information about you, the type of person you are. What does that mean? I mean, the people who hurt me are those people who are in terrible pain, who suffer so damn much that they lash out, that their pain causes them to erect fantastic and awful defences, defences that prove the depth of their pain. Other people's pain is the most hurtful thing in the world to me. I have no doubt that you too hurt and have your life pains Certain Hope, but I sense, from seeing you here, that those pains do not stop you from trying to solve them: you have hope in your name and that is telling. please know that you have not pained me.
Nothing I expressed was done with the spin that Sela tried to put on it,
I will support Sela here, who I've known a long time. Sela has driven me to distraction with questioning, with bevaviour modification type advice and I thank her from the bottom of my heart. She has changed my view on many things - behaviour stuff in particular (rework those bad tapes by postive affirmations for example). Sela can seem like she will take you apart: BUT I believe her intention is helpful and never harmful. I needed some things taking apart and she helped me find other parts to put back together. What bad writing but I hope you get the idea. It hurts, for sure, it hurts but only because when we face ourselves, we acknowledge all the human frailty we hold, all the bad sloppy thinking and we embrace the fears and look them square in the face: we face them down and own them. So, Sela, yes. It might feel like 'spin' CH, but it's not, it depends on your interpretation. Maybe that would be a more productive line for me to take - to look at your exchnages with Sela and see what I see, try to be objective, ask for other opinions? All out in the open - no PMs (PMs restrict feedback and other views). Maybe I'll do that.
Why? Because I sense something worth doing. The worse thing is when it seems that the problem is unsolvable and some problems are. That hurts like hell. That is like personal failure to me, the inability to connect, the lack of standard homo sapien response. Whoah. enough. It hurts.
I am sorry, Portia, that you became the focus of all this and I wish only the very best for you.
I understand your words above and of course, it's just simple cause and effect. I posted, you posted, Sela posted etc. Relationships and interpretations and assumptions and the necessary stuff of human communication. It's all okay! It's all allowed. Nobody is at fault - nobody.
I truly am sorry for my ignorance and lack of social skills.
I would never describe you as ignorant or lacking in social skills, no way. You seem like a rounded human being to me, not perfect, not imperfect either, but absolutely human. This board is an odd - understatement - environment. I think it is improved and helped by your presence. Hang in there. It's worth it I believe and I value you being here. take care, I'm going for now.
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Portia,
Thank you for accepting my apology.
I'm glad that you don't feel hurt by anything I've said.
I understand your position re: Sela's involvement in this conflict and thank you for being so clear about that. You've inspired me to attempt to be equally clear. I will not be revisiting my exchanges with Sela. I will not contribute to any further discussion on that topic at all. This is a boundary I must draw for myself, because I don't know how to speak any more clearly than I already have, and yet my words were twisted, imo.
I am also not interested in assigning fault or blame here. My goal is to move on from this with the knowledge I've gained, free from fear, so that the next time I feel a need to address a conflict, I can do it directly, assertively, and productively without engaging in discussions with a third party.
I'm done with this, Portia. Thank you for your part in laying it to rest.
Hope
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Certain Hope,
I forget to say thank you to you in my last reply. My last reply was written with some emotion so I apologise if that was apparent and also want to say thank you for replying. I used to be more careful with my posts - editing and rewording and so on - recently I've just tried to communicate an essence or something more direct, instead, and I'm not sure it's worked anywhere. Maybe I'll go back to being very careful with my words. Muttering out loud here.
I respect your boundary with Sela. I was simply being honest about my thoughts and feelings and experiences. It's okay with me for you to do as you choose and we can agree to disagree in our interpretations of Sela's intentions. No worries.
I feel I need to ask a question or two because I don't understand (and I like to understand, if possible). If you don't wish to answer that's okay. I'll ask anyway, no harm in asking I guess. About:
I am also not interested in assigning fault or blame here.
I read this and went 'oh!' in my head, 'who said you were'? Not me! When I said nobody is to blame, I meant it. I wasn't implying the opposite of what I said. I was being straightforward and honest. Did what I say cause you to think I was implying otherwise? If not no worries, but I wondered what you meant. I don't think any fault or blame is in question. It doesn't arise for me. I'm not that sort of person. I don't look for people to blame at any point: I usually just see a mess of misunderstanding. I don't 'get' blaming: it doesn't serve any useful purpose to me. We all have to live together, what's the point of 'blame'? Just telling you my thoughts there, what sort of person I am, inside. Just for the heck of it.
My goal is to move on from this with the knowledge I've gained, free from fear, so that the next time I feel a need to address a conflict, I can do it directly, assertively, and productively without engaging in discussions with a third party.
Sounds good. So, for example, if I upset you in any way, you'll ask me directly and not talk to others, is that how it would work? Going directly to the source, I'd agree with that. Not that you asked, I'm just asking/talking for my own interest here.
I'm done with this, Portia. Thank you for your part in laying it to rest.
Can I ask though, I appreciate you're done with 'this', does that mean I'm done with it too? I mean, do you want me to talk any more, or if I want to talk, can I, or would you rather I stop now? If you want me to stop, I will too, although it will leave a couple of question marks in my mind, but no problem there I think. Either way, or maybe a middle way, or whatever, you can let me know by replying or not, and I won't post any more questions or mutterings addressed to you unless you say otherwise. Can't think of a way of covering any other options, so I'll stop.
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Hi Portia,
You're welcome. And thank you again. I appreciate your way of completely alleviating the tension from this discussion between us. I also really appreciate your respect of my boundary with Sela. This feels healthy and mature to me.
No, I didn't think that you were implying the opposite of anything. When I said that I was not interested in assigning blame, I meant that I take responsibility for bringing about this confrontation. I have to, because to do otherwise I'd be subscribing to the "stuff happens" theory, which does not resonate as truth to me.
You said: "So, for example, if I upset you in any way, you'll ask me directly and not talk to others, is that how it would work? Going directly to the source, I'd agree with that. Not that you asked, I'm just asking/talking for my own interest here."
Yes, Portia. That's what I'll do. That's what I should have done the first time, which is why I've taken responsibility for initiating confrontation in the wrong manner.
You said: "Can I ask though, I appreciate you're done with 'this', does that mean I'm done with it too? I mean, do you want me to talk any more, or if I want to talk, can I, or would you rather I stop now? If you want me to stop, I will too, although it will leave a couple of question marks in my mind, but no problem there I think."
I face a momentary dilemma with that question. Can I legitimately tell you that you should be "done" with an issue? No.
But based on the apology I extended and you received, I do believe that I can legitimately state that I am done with it.
To me, "done" means that I would prefer to not be called upon to respond further on this topic, on this thread. I believe that forgiveness offered and received should end a matter. I do not have the ability to further analyze the various issues involved in this whole thing beyond what I'm attempting to do on other threads, so I'll stop here, too.
Hope
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Thank you again Certain Hope. I appreciated your reply and the thoughtfulness of your response to my questions, I like that and feel…validated in attempting to communicate clearly – which for me often means saying much more, double clarifying and writing more words than might seem necessary. So thank you.
I would prefer to not be called upon to respond further on this topic, on this thread.
I respect your preference and in return I have no outstanding question marks that need answering. Thanks for taking the time; I must admit I was starting to feel ‘guilty’ for not answering the earlier pages, saying that I would and then delaying it, but maybe it’s for the best. And thanks for saying you’ll ask me directly if it happens again: please do, I hope you would, or will, if it happens. P
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Hope,
I just wanted to make a short reply to you here on your own thread regarding your comments to me yesterday. I did not want you to think that I did not read them or have any regard for your thoughts.
I totally respect, understand and support your needing to respond to issues facing you with a strength and resolve that frees you from your past bonds of enabling and fear. I have certainly felt that same need. We are all on a path to healing that is personal and individual. You must do what works for you, just as I have. I see you as a very wise, thoughtful woman who knows what mistakes she has made in the past and how best to not repeat those mistakes in the future.
I send many blessings and best wishes as you move forward on your path.
Hugs,
Brigid
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We're all a work in progress...progress, not perfection.
Bones
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Indeed, Bones. ((((((((((Bones))))))))))
((((((((Brigid)))))))) again, just because.
Hope
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Indeed, Bones. ((((((((((Bones))))))))))
((((((((Brigid)))))))) again, just because.
Hope
Thanks, Hope!
((((((((((((((((((((((((Hope)))))))))))))))))))))))))