Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: anony123 on July 24, 2006, 09:45:10 AM
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Hi gang, I have not been here for a time. I been getting my bizarro G/F out of my life.
I do think about her a lot and I do miss some of our 'goodtimes'. Toward the end, she really lost her grip. Every time I contemplate replying to one of her latest emails I tell myself." Slap yourself Jack !" However I am not a violent guy - not even to and with myself.
Here are a few 'items' from our last days --comments would be welcome.
One Saturday, six weeks ago,I text her asking her to come dancing , She accepted. "Sure."
I text back, " You going to look stunning and gorgeous."
She replied," I am unable to come due to the implied demands in your last text."
Huh? So I called her and she smoothed out some. She turned up at the dance rather tipsy and stormed out at 9 pm because I was dancing with another lady.
Foolishly I met her for brunch the next morning.I brought up the topic of the 'walkout' and said,
" This can't happen again, J".
She looked annoyed and said, " Your use of the word 'can't' suggests a demand. You could have said 'prefer' or even that you 'wish" it would not happen again,but 'can't' is not appropriate !"
We were playing the old semantics dodge and weave.
Two months ago she and I were walking along toward the coffee shop. I felt playful and turned to her, and pulled her gently to me and kissed her. She recoiled quite energetically and mumbled something. I was taken aback. her said that she did not like public displays of attention. I remember thinking,"Geez I will never do THAT again."
Anyways,a few weeks ago I brought up the event on a cell phone conversation with her . She said that at the time she was thinking,"This sort of kissing is 'male territory marking' behavior. I have read about it and now it is happening to me."
THAT was what she really thought!
It never occurred to her that I was just showing genuine affection.She saw it as some threat to her autonomy or independence ??
You can imagine how few problems that she and I ever resolved.
Anyone ever had to wade thru this stuff with a S/O.
Anyone ever had to live with someone whose interpretations were so grossly distorted.
I wonder what the psych majors would say?
OH, and here is the kicker. She told a ladyfriend of mine that I am too "high maintenance". Can you believe this womans gall.
Jack.
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Hey Jack, hon,
I think you can't hear us through your hormones, dear.
I promise I'll write you more if you'll first go back and re-read everything everybody has already posted to you about this relationship...and answer some of the questions that were asked.
Does that seem fair? I'm sorry you're still stuck, and glad you brought it here.
Hops
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I"m fairly new here and haven't put in my .02 on this, but will wade in now, if that's o.k. Yes, it's very hard sometimes to let go, very, very difficult. And letting go can be a very slow process---it was for me once. There's this part of us that holds on to the memory of the fireworks and overlooks the obvious---it's not gonna work. Sounds to me like you are slowing letting go, but you're also hurting yourself by allowing thoughts of her and her actual presence in your life. You are more valuable than that and you should cut her off, completely, and look instead for Mrs. Right.
Adrift
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Jack
I'm fairly new here myself but I'm going to take a risk and wade in as well. (BTW, I am a psych major as well as a recovering individual from a variety of issues.) I've been where you're at. I wish I knew then what I know now and realized that I was being drawn to the "familiar" (based on family experiences) even though it was dysfunctional behaviors. It's so hard to break that cycle, especially given the fact that I had been taught, growing up, that I was "worthless", so I felt I didn't deserve anything better. It's a long, slow, painful process and there is no way out but through. I keep reminding myself, "that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger!"
JMHO
Bones
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hiya jack,
when I read your stories I did relate. You described me pretty well in my relationship with my ex-husband.
I felt that many of his actions were an attempt to let the world see how romantic, nice, good, caring, etc he was, but deep down I felt worthless. Even his unconditional love (which was the first I'd felt it from anyone in my life) wasn't enough for me. See, I was badly damaged by my N parents and I didn't believe I was worth all the fuss, and when someone did make a fuss, I doubted it was real. Then, I tried desperately to put distance between myself and he, and eventually this turned into me being repulsed by him. So, you could say I fell out of love with him, but really, I think I never learned to love myself enough, at that point in my life, to accept love and kindness from another.
Intentions are so tricky in relationships. Some of what you've described of her behavior sound like valid attempts by her to set boundaries. Maybe she really doesn't like public displays of affection and maybe you texting her really set her off. Maybe she doesn't want to be thought of as beautiful and stunning, but kind and for her inside qualities. Did you ever have conversations of this type with her? To get to the real needs she might have had. Thinking what someone needs and what they actually need are two entirely different things, that's one thing I had to learn the hard way.
In my current relationship, I have a need to not be treated as an object. This need is so strong, it could rally a tornado's strength, no kidding. So if you treated me the way you've described above, I'd recoil as well. But every woman is unique and individual in her needs Jack, just as you are unique in yours. So the trick to loving an individual is finding out what Her needs are - not what you believe women to need, but what this person, you're committing to love, actually needs. You might find it to be very different than what you thought she needed.
hugs, good luck working on yourself
pb
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Hi Jack,
Everybody else gave you thoughtful, sensitive advice. I k now I didn't, I'm sorry.
I just realized that's because I spent soooooooooo long not letting go of toxic relationships that you were reminding me of a piece of me I don't want to think about. Aha! I'm sorry for the crack about your hormones. I know it's really your heart calling out.
Fingers in ears....lalalalalalalalalala....I'm sorry I didn't hear you.
It really really IS hard to let someone go when you're getting a little bit --jsut a little bit--of what you dream of and are not yet truly convinced that you are as loveable as you truly are. Deserving of real love, not just drama.
You do deserve real, grownup love. And confidence in yourself.
Same time, I'll mention I totally felt the same as PB, about being abruptly grabbed and kissed. I think you have to tune in...see if there's a sort of humming closeness happening. Get really receptive to her signals. You may find, disappointingly, that they're not there. Or that they're minimal.
Then ask yourself...what are mine? That way you can also check on whether what you're putting out, signals wise, is real love or desire to possess. (I got them confused for so long.)
Hops
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I was totally baffled with your post, Jack...on one hand it sounded like you were done with the G/F and then you tell us about how you asked her out? I don't get it. Is it over or not?
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Hops,
Everybody else gave you thoughtful, sensitive advice. I k now I didn't, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry that you decided to backpeddle on this as I thought your original response was right on and said exactly the same thing I was going to say.
Jack, you do need to go back and read the responses to your earlier posts. There is some valuable information in there that, at the time, you apparently didn't listen to. Maybe you are ready now??
Brigid
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(((Brigid))) you are a woman of character and substance.
I am a wuss and couldn't stand being mean.
However, thank you!
Tell you what, Jack.
I meant both of them!
hugs,
Hops
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Ladies- a couple of points.
Firstly we have not been together for four weeks. If you read my last post you will note that I say "One Saturday.." not "ON Saturday...." (That Saturday was SIX weeks ago)
Secondly, I did not "abruptly grab her ... " READ MY POST PLEASE !!
Thirdly, a woman who recoils from genuine affection from her guy is in some kind of bad place and its a place that I do not want to share.
Lastly, I posted because I wanted some light hearted comments re. her twisted perceptions. I did not need to be hammered and scolded by Hops or anyone else. I know what I need to do but that does not exclude my posting in a way that I thought would help me focus on her negative qualities.
Thank you to those of you who "got" it.
Jack.
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Hey. You're sticking up for yourself.
That sounds pretty good, Jack.
I did mean the sorry one, too.
Hops
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Maybe those of you who "know" so righteously what all of us need, should stop and ASK yourself whether a stern 'lecture' from a stranger on an internet forum would have been helpful to you.
Sometimes we 'broken ones' just need to be heard rather than 'corrected'.
Jack.
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Jack,
I am sorry.
Forgive me?
Hops
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Yeah, you are cool Hops,
The contents of your advice is good for the most part,except sometimes it come wrapped in razor wire...Jack.
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((((((Jack, gently))))))
Hops
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Ladies, I am still waiting for some replies to my request to have YOU evaluate her reponses.
( I do not accept that her recoiling from a gesture of spontaneous affection -a kiss, is "setting legitimate boundaries" ..I would have thought that it is more likely that that lady has some kind of PROBLEM)
Most women would see that as sweet and re-assuring , I am told by a lady friend.
So what gives?
Please, no more lectures about my 'recovery'. I have read all the old posts. They are old posts and they did not help much..
How about lightening up ladies ?
( Maybe I should switch to- Ask Men.com !! Huh?)
Jack.
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A couple of ladies here said they would not like it. I guess I would have to have seen it for myself before deciding. Your lady said she didn't like it--it seems to me like that is the most important opinion in this particular situation. All women do not think alike. And even if you got a consensus here among this group of females, it still wouldn't change what is going on with this particular lady. Also, two people who love each other would not be struggling so much over so many things on each date. Just my opinion based on my one and only relationship--my husband and I.
Pennyplant
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sighing
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OK Jack--here comes a kinder, gentler Brigid with a response to your question.
When my b/f grabs me and kisses me in public, I love it. We are naturally very affectionate with each other and pda's are common. If I felt like recoiling, that would indicate a problem to me and about me in that relationship. But I am also a very touchy, feely person by nature and always enjoy touching and being touched by those I care about.
Now I am going to be not so kind by asking, what does it matter what we think about that particular episode in what appeared to be a long list of bothersome, tiring, uncaring things that she did? I understand that this break-up has been painful and you are dealing with things from your childhood that may or may not play into that. But your pain and trying to heal from that is what needs to be focused on here and what we might be able to help you with. Whether or not she acted appropriately in that particular situation is really rather moot at this point.
I think a lot of this boils down to the male/female thing. Women want to talk about their problems and have others sympathize, but not necessarily offer definitive solutions. Men want specific solutions to their problems without having to look at the feelings involved. Unfortunately, we just don't have too many guys hanging out around here to give you that perspective.
I'm sorry that I am most likely not answering your questions the way that you would like. I'm not sure what you mean by "lightening up." I don't find your sadness amusing nor would I choose to make light of it. I have been where you are times 10 and believe me, lightening up would not have been helpful.
Brigid
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My EX g/f said the she did not like being kissed because," That behavior is 'male territory marking behavior' ". (She had gleaned that gem from one of her 3000 pop psyche books)
She and I were ,at the time,in an intimate relationship so there was no need to 'mark' anything or anyone.
Her remark is such a ridiculous interpretation of the event and hopelessly out of context.
Jack.
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Brigid, I am a man and I like definitive answers, solutions, results, outcomes and so on.
I do not regard feelings and just talking about them to be of much value FOR ME.
I asked my questions to try to get a female opinion of another female's behavior. It seems that you all are reluctant to assess a "sister". That is all I am left to conclude. I have read numerous posts on this board and you all are ready to shoot 'em when the other person is a man.
Just my 2 cents. Maybe I am missing something but I doubt it.
Jack.
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Jack,
Blunt (but no razor wire intended):
So she said an over-the-top feminist thing about your kiss.
The truth is that she recoiled from you, not the PDA. She withdrew her desire and affection.
That is more significant than why, or what thought she voiced at the time.
It's not so much whether you had the "label" of "being a couple" or not. It's whether you were attuned to the feeling of being a couple. And she was not, and was recoiling from you.
It's painful but it happens. Rejection hurts but at some point, people stop being monsters for not liking you. One of my hardest lessons was/is ... that not everyone I want to like me or love me, will. and that if they don't, and I feel hurt, the degree of my hurt does NOT necessarily equal a similar degree of "badness" or "sickness" on their part.
It might be just how I feel until that passes through.
An author to suggest to you: Pema Chodron. Anything by her.
A thing to ask yourself, a wait a while and listen for an answer that feels true:
How is it going to help you to make her bad? When what she is, is gone?
Hops
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Hops, Curiously, this 'feminist' that i was dating craves male attention,affection and looks for an endless supply of assurances that HE loves her. The HE was me. She continues to email me and text me right up to today. The problem is this. She does not know how to be in an adult relationship and GIVE in RESPONSE to the requirements and needs of the relationship.In other words, she wanted all the rewards and benefits of a relationship BUt was not willing to make the contributions and pay the cost. It is called having it all her way. She rejected the concept that every relationship will cost you something, starting with some of your freedom to do as you please with whomever you please. She wants only to give what she is comfortable giving at her discretion a the timing of HER choice. That may be 'feminist' but it is a disaster strategy in a relationship. She essentially wanted our relationship to be a storehouse of supplies to deliver on her request. And, as usual with all 'good' feminists ,we as men, are to blame for everything difficult including the movement of the techtonic plates.
I HAVE had enough of her endless hunger AND her absurd feminist propaganda. Supermaket magazines have a lot to answer for. She looked for scorpions under every rock. Feminists tend to do that, seeing offense where there is none, abuse where there is none and misread misunderstanding as sinister conflict.Men are still half of the population and that seems to be at their wounded core.
Life with a woman is not this hard -surely.
Jack.
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Hi,
Life with anyone, male or female, who has a wounded core, is going to be difficult until healing begins.
Hope
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Jacmac.... you are... da bomb !!! :D Amen X a kazillion to your words here.
Looking forward to reading your communication post in the morning when brain is (hopefully) in gear.
With love,
Hope
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Jack,
I asked my questions to try to get a female opinion of another female's behavior. It seems that you all are reluctant to assess a "sister". That is all I am left to conclude. I have read numerous posts on this board and you all are ready to shoot 'em when the other person is a man.
Wow, do you really think that? First, I think you did get a number of comments on her behavior--regarding that particular instance and others you have mentioned. The fact that they were not all the same answer or that everyone thought she was absolutely wrong in what she did, is based on our own perspectives and feelings about those examples and our own personal experiences with relationships. I do believe that the question was "asked and answered."
This is not a dating advice column. Most of us are not relationship experts (although we sometimes play one on TV). We can only respond to what you tell us and obviously, we are only hearing your side of the story. You are frustrated that we don't directly answer your questions the exact way you would like, but I think we are also frustrated that you choose to not read or respond to anything we've offered.
Your "You are all ready to shoot 'em" comment is way off base, IMO. I would say it is usually quite the opposite, in fact. I think most of us enjoy having men here and hearing their take on things. I think there aren't as many men for the very fact that they don't like to discuss feelings and that is what mostly takes place here.
Jac,
I don't think we gave advice to Jack regarding his situation that was any different than if the situation was reversed and the g/f was posting. At least where I am concerned, I certainly don't expect to have someone immediately go out and do what I suggested may be helpful, but perhaps consider some of the information offered and at the least acknowledge the response. I think if you went back and read the original posts, you would see that. I don't think that I have ever told anyone here to flat out dump someone, unless, of course, the relationship was abusive.
If someone is posting to ask for advice, I guess I take that to mean that they actually want some. It is entirely up to them if they choose to accept it or reject it.
Brigid
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Well, I'm guilty of getting frustrated sometimes when I work really hard to analyse something and it bounces off. But I spotted it--it was about me, just as you described Jac. Jack's difficulty in letting go of a relationship that's not going to bring him happiness made me want to not look at it again, because it reminded me of a piece of myself I wanted to disown. It was helpful to me to see that quick dynamic (if not to poor Jack!).
Some more questions for you, Jack:
She rejected the concept that every relationship will cost you something, starting with some of your freedom to do as you please with whomever you please.
Did any of these conflicts happen to come up with you telling her what you thought the cost of the relationship should be for her, or you telling her whom you thought she should not see? Did she say to you, Jack, you do what you want with whom you want... or was she indifferent to what you did? Did you trying to hold her close, not just because you thought that's what a relationship should be, but because you felt her loyalty wandering, and you felt unloved?
She wants only to give what she is comfortable giving at her discretion a the timing of HER choice. That may be 'feminist' but it is a disaster strategy in a relationship.
It certainly sounds as though she wanted whatever she gave to the relationship, or to you, to be completely free-will and voluntary.
She essentially wanted our relationship to be a storehouse of supplies to deliver on her request
Are you partly angry with yourself, too, because even though you felt used and resentful, you kept delivering the supplies?
Hops
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Hi Brigid,
When I read here this morning, I thought, "uh oh" .... and then, "I am really going to have to suspend commenting on my own 'aha' moments until thoroughly thinking through how my response may come across to others and expressing my own perspective more completely."
Jac's comments hit square on with my own experiences with giving advice in the past. Because I did find it so frustrating (and maddening) I'd nearly given up altogether on advising anyone, rather than face the distinct possibility that there would likely be no return on (what was to me) my major investment of emotional energy. Jac's words helped me to see in vivid color the bigger picture... that the reason I'd feel emotionally drained if someone didn't follow my counsel was because of all the negative stuff I'd virtually had to relive in order to give that counsel. Although I'd recognized my own need to not continue this pattern, I'd gotten stuck in a position of thinking, "what's the use... he/she is going to do whatever he/she wants anyway". By the way, I think a huge part of this for me relates to wanting to see all that I've experienced NOT turn out to be a waste and if I can communicate effectively to others who are in similar situations, some of that old mess has been redeemed.
Anyhow, Brigid, I absolutely agree with what you've expressed in your posts on this thread, including the last one, and I never intended to imply that everyone who's given advice here has become angry when that advice was not taken. Seems I'm often on a sort of parallel path with these posts... receiving insights that pertain to my own situation, but failing to acknowledge that not everyone has been where I am (or needs to go where I do). I'll work on expressing all of that better in future. Keep up the good work :P :)
Hope
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To Brigit - the question has NOt been answered to my satisfaction at all. Why can I NOT get some straight answers here?
I asked for some comments about two incidences. I asked for what I needed to know. I received mostly YOUR personal opinions of what YOU thought I should know.
Do you get what the problem is here, ladies ? You all decided to preach and advise and "improve" me a few weeks ago when I first posted . Why not just answer the question in the way that I requested ?
To JacMac- you have been reading my mind.
To Hops, I just raised the issue of how a committed relationship will surely cost both parties something. That may be some freedom, it maybe some time away from other friends , it may be that I need to cut back on my fishing.!
She saw this relationship as a supplier of little more than seratonin. She wanted it to be like one long date, but she put little in of any substance. When I asked her to contribute and put herself out, she rambled on about how demanding I was ,blah ,blah !
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Hope,
Thanks for your comments. I know that I do occasionally get frustrated with people who are asking for help, then I go out on that limb and offer some insights or what has worked for me--which as you so aptly stated--puts me back into that painful place, then they appear to ignore or dismiss the information. I remember saying to my therapist at one point when I was swirling around the drain and not able to move forward, "how do you not want to jump out of that chair and come over and shake me until my teeth rattle when you see me continuing to obsess about the same things?" I'm sure therapists must face that day in and day out, but I know it would make me crazy.
I had to go back to what I wrote on Storm's thread on "Double Binds." I can only control me--I can only control me--I can only control me. Gotta work on that some more.
Hugs,
Brigid
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jack,
What kind of response are you looking for? What could we say to you about your ex-g/f's behavior that would be supportive?
I did answer honestly, based on my own experience of acting like her myself (which I admitted was out of line - it led to my divorce, in fact), what she might be thinking and feeling.
So I gave an explanation other than she is just Bad or Wrong or a Terrible Woman. She sounds like a hurt person. If N, she's probably not repairable. Why do you have a need to keep beating the dead horse? This woman is not capable of having a relationship with you because she is Damaged, I agree, and in my opinion, it may not make her evil. She may just be confused. But yes, I agree, she's incapable of having a relationship with you. I think I've said that now 10 times? How many more examples and how many more times do you think you're going to need to hear this from us? I mean, I'm willing to keep telling you, but don't play the head games about what you want and need here. Cause it's real clear to us on the outside.
Why do you have a need to make her the bad one? Does she represent your mother? That's the role she's playing, I believe. Your mother hurt you, and now this woman is a receptacle for that hurt and shame. But it would be much more effective to get to the point of talking about your mother, cause then the next woman that comes along, you may have a chance with. That is honestly what I think, cause I don't tell untruths here.
pb
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Jack,
To Brigit - the question has NOt been answered to my satisfaction at all. Why can I NOT get some straight answers here?
I asked for some comments about two incidences. I asked for what I needed to know. I received mostly YOUR personal opinions of what YOU thought I should know.
OK, what we have here is a failure to communicate. I am not in a position to offer anything more than my personal opinion. I specifically told you how I would react if my b/f kissed me in public. What more can I do? I cannot read the mind of a woman I do not know or a situation to which I was not a witness. I guess I would ask what a "straight answer" would sound like to you?
I have offered some information that I paid a lot of money for in my two years of weekly therapy. I am now in a relationship that is wonderful with a man who makes me blissfully happy, so I guess I learned something from all those hours. I think I have said all that I can.
Brigid
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hi brigid,
I'm getting the feeling that jack is persecuting all women on this board, not just the ex-G/f now. Very interesting stuff.
He has such a great need to persecute women, in fact, that he posts a vague question, then when he doesn't get the answer he wants (ie, this woman is Bad), he pouts, gets angry, then asks for only the men to reply. Like they're more sensible, or something.
It's a wonder with this kind of behavior, Jack, that you had a g/f at all. Seriously. This is disrespectful of all women here.
pb
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I text back, " You going to look stunning and gorgeous."
She replied," I am unable to come due to the implied demands in your last text."
I think you're asking for specifics, right? Because I once was a young woman beginning to become aware of the pain of male domination culture-wide, the only response I can give you comes from the truth of that, and isn't about judging her, which is what I think you want. But I'll offer a negative about her too. We all deserve them. Bear in mind that as a woman, I can more easily identify with her in the situation. So, I accept an invite and get back:
" You going to look stunning and gorgeous."
Inside, I would bristle and recoil. A level deeper, I would be depressed. (Just 2 years ago, my 53 y/o bf asked me to go to an event with him. After hearing him go on and on about what I should wear, I began feeling valued more as arm candy, an accessory to his preening. Like a tie or cufflinks, just bigger.) Needless to say...I didn't feel valued for my uniqueness, my individuality, my company. Just my boobs and being handy when he wanted a woman along. It turned out to be true. We split. He was my last N.
Here's the negative: She does sound prissy, humorless and defensive when she says it to you. (Many just-awakening feminists do...the shock of fully facing your position in the world, despite all the strides, does tend to do that). She sounds the same when she reacts to you telling her "This can't happen again." I would, however, have the same thought process she did. I would feel, who are you to dictate to me. And what she offered as alternative ways to say how you felt would have been fine with me, too.
I am verrrrrry sensitive to some men's assumptions of entitlement and gestures of control. I often have felt that some men do it so automatically, having been raised into the role, that they really are baffled by why some women, like me, are so threatened by "litlte remarks" and "reasonable requests." And oddly, I had another middle-aged bf who insisted on PDAs although he was happy to criticize me like crazy the rest of the time. Now that your gf mentions it, I did feel a lot like a fireplug. It felt like being "claimed", not like affection or being loved.
On the other hand, I daydream a lot about a sweet loving companion like Brigid's fella, w/whom PDAs would be really PEAs...expressions, rather than displays. I'd leave the displays to the peacocks.
Controlling works both ways, either gender. I have been guilty in the past of having a list of "relationship expectations" in my head that would've driven Ward Cleaver out the door screaming. Somebody would give me a few crumbs of affection and I'd be mentally picking out the furniture, just the way little girls in school used to write Mrs. So and So in their best script... I truly think romantic cliches and fantasies and assumptions prevent us from knowing each other deeply, and developing amazing relationships. That's what I want now. You might be intrigued, Jack, by a book called Passionate Marriage. Would love to know what you think of it. (It's about sex. And psychology. And intimacy and commitment. It's quite racy.)
None of this is to say, at all, that you don't have your legitimate grievances and gripes about her behavior. I am certain you do. She may be immature, or have her own feelings of entitlement. You appear to have felt used by her, and perhaps she has done that. That's not fair to you, and many women want things both ways, which I find exasperating. (Buy me diamonds like I'm your pet poodle but don't put me on a leash.) I have sympathy for both of you, and can imaginatively best understand her feelings.
I think that neither of you is ready for a fully committed relationship. I am guessing you're in your early to mid-20s...and I hope you will take a long time before marrying anyone. Her too.
I hope this is helpful. It's as specific as I can be.
Hops
(PS--thinking of the title of your thread, I am trying to shed light on the bewilderment part. As an older female who can identify with your young one. I can't just tell you what I think you want to hear: she's bad, you're good! Everybody's a mix. Blame gets you nowhere closer to happiness, even if you're right about some things, which I'm sure you are.. I'd watch your own thinking, observe it: and think about your mother. A lot. Make all the connections you can.
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My EX g/f said the she did not like being kissed because," That behavior is 'male territory marking behavior' ". (She had gleaned that gem from one of her 3000 pop psyche books)
She and I were ,at the time,in an intimate relationship so there was no need to 'mark' anything or anyone.
Her remark is such a ridiculous interpretation of the event and hopelessly out of context.
Jack.
I agree, it is a ridculous response if you ask me, "male territory marking?????" :roll: If I'm into a guy, then I wouldn't mind the pda (public display of affection), but then again when I'm hormonal my reactions are quite bizarre sometimes so............... you can't really pin me down. I would say your ex g/f has issues and that you are struggling mightily to let go of her and you deserve praise for your efforts. I know it is difficult.
I came to this board for many reasons, one of which was due to an emotional affair I recently had with a man (not the man I've been married to for the last 20 years, obviously). I haven't mentioned this until now, but the whole thing lasted about 2 years. Nothing physical ever happened, but he gave me lots of signals that he was interested and even set up for us to be alone once (actually more but I didn't follow through) and then backed out when I went to kiss him (can you say "felt like a fool"?) . I would give him signals and he would one day enjoy them and the next day, or week, would recoil. I was one confused chic, let me tell you. Oh, I should add that he too is married.
I was terribly, terribly hurt. He played me like a violin, but then I played him somewhat too. He told me once he loved me, but I never told him although I thought I loved him more than anything in the world. In the end, he totally ran roughshod over my heart (but I'm not sure that he really realized it because I was so busy trying to play it cool), lied to me about things and it turned out he wasn't what I thought he was----which is kinda where you are. Your ex g/f isn't what you thought she was, but yet you still have feelings and are hurt and haven't made peace with it all yet. From one who has kinda, sorta been where you've been, I know that even when they've totally crushed you, it's still hard to let go because you still love what "was" , even though "was" might not have ever really existed. This guy who treated me so, is he bad? is he horrible? is he a monster? ----not really, he has lots of good qualities. Do I hate him? I did for awhile, but hate has a thread of love in it you know. You only hate that which has meaning to you. The more I've let go of my feelings for him, the less I've hated him and the less I've loved him and the less I've tried to figure out what in the hell went on. I kinda get the feeling you're still somewhere in that phase of trying to figure out "what the hell happened". Personally, I never completely figured it all out. He gave me so many mixed signals, and in retrospect the only thing I'm pretty sure of is that we both found each other physically attractive but it just wasn't meant to be. We did a very long mating dance, but never mated, never committed and finally went our separate ways.
I hope for you, anony, that you can finally get to the end of your journey and just let go of wondering "what the hell happened" and just let go.........
I'd also like to add, that my DH (dear husband) now knows all about the emotional affair and he has been understanding (well, after he got over being really mad) and the whole situation has actually improved our marriage. DH and I ended up becoming more honest with each other and more intimate.
Adrift
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hi jac,
It doesn't make me mad that you've pointed out my communication style is now assuming and not probably the best. I do have a migraine today though, so I'm short on patience (not the same as anger).
I'm communicating this way with him for a reason, he's glossed over most of what you said that was really important, if you noticed. If you examine Jack's history of posting here, he hasn't seemed to listen to anything really, and he has offended women before - some here admitted they were offeneded. And I am too now (wasn't before but he's triggering some stuff for me now, I suppose).
I'd appreciate it jac, if you didn't dimish my feelings by overanalyzing my post in the way you did above. I've stated they are my feelings, so technically, you can't disagree with them.
There are also questions being asked where the motivation is not to get a direct answer to the question ( I am speaking of questions being asked of Jack) but to accuse and assign blame.
I don't know where you get this, cause it's certainly not what I was thinking/feeling: to assign blame. Also, you don't know my feeling unless ya ask, ya know. :)
on edit: I'm feeling like I'd like an apology (from jack), guess it wasn't clear so I'll ask. Otherwise, this communication with jack isn't going very well and I doubt it'd improve, I do agree with that.
pb
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hops, I just read your post (migraine has subsided - it was due to wearing glasses of the wrong prescription, btw, so no jokes in poor taste about females having headaches, please).
Wonderful!! Lovely, so much so in fact, it sums up exactly how I've felt throughout most of my "awakening." As a feminist and an all-round male loving gal, myself, I think we'd hit it off marvelously. I believe that there's a difference between "hating men" see, and hating stereotypes. I hate stereotypes of either gender, male or female. I don't use them and I get along great with people I work with, male and female, because of it.
BTW, if you wanted to make this discussion about men and women jack, I'd love to do that and debunk some stereotypes as I work with mostly men and/or very assertive women. The women are as often the "doers" as the men. And if you tried to write something like you have above in a email to women I work with? You'd be in HR so fast and your butt would be looking for a new job. It's just not acceptable to dismiss "women's views" in the workplace. It's a Fact, not my opinion. Of course, we're talking about relationships here, which maybe I should just stay out of to begin with.
I happen to have a great relationship with someone (most times, when my past isn't screwing it up, or simply the laws of entropy) and we don't spend it out dancing and hanging out at coffee shops, or worrying of his Public Displays of Affection (PDA to me means Personal Device, like an electronic calendar)- we talk (a lot), dream, work on our cars and ride motorcycles, swim, play with the dog, and tinker around on projects in our "home lab." OK, what do you expect of a chemical and mechanical engineer? So all of your questions about what she said and then how you responded are a Little Silly to me jack. This is all superficial B.S. to me and is not the stuff of real relationships. In My Opinion (that was for jacmac).
pb
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I have to add something else, cause I think this is important hops. You felt like a Pair of Boobs. Gee, aint that dandy?
In all my travels and years of dating (I'm only 34 but I've dated A Lot), one thing I learned is that if I wanted a guy to truly respect me for more than being a pair of legs (in my case legs, since boobs aren't my best feature), I needed to find that guy at work and develop the friendship-relationship there. why?
Because at work, people saw me in all my different modes; they see me at my worst and best, they didn't see me "playing the role of sweet cute innocent little lady" like some guys wanted... No, they saw me being assertive and smart, and winning over a room full of customers, and they saw me not afraid to back down on what I thought was important..In other words, they see me, being me - the real me. And if they could quiver at the thought or sight of me entering a room, I thought, that's the person that's really going to accept me just as I am. And that is a recipe for love. You're the real you too, Jack, but when you first start dating someone, you put up a front (it's subtle and pychological and happens for strange reasons I think). If you tore down that wall, imagine what you two might find?
I truly think romantic cliches and fantasies and assumptions prevent us from knowing each other deeply, and developing amazing relationships.
This is the wall that hops mentioned.
(BTW, I think Jack said he's in his late? 40s)
pb
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BTW, I think Jack said he's in his late? 40s
Oops. Sorry, Jack. You sound young to me (no offense intended). Couldn't remember the title of your old thread so I couldn't go back...
PB, I'm glad you understand one can have that painful awakening and still love men too. I do, a lot.
(I was lucky to have a wonderful father, who offset the bully-brother stuff. I married two bullies but now that I'm getting...finally....some more clarity about what matters, I know I'm no longer trying to "win" my brother's affection (or mother's).) That is such a relief.
If I'm fortunate enough to marry again, it'll be Brigid's beau's brother, with a bit of Mr. Moon and Mr. H&H thrown in.
:P
Jack, I do hope you'll share your specific reactions to specific pieces of our answers. To me, anyway, it's very motivating.
wishing you awakenings and the pain fast receding (you're not broken--just learning like the rest of us),
Hops
Hops
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jac,
that's because he changed the offending words and remarks, after some of the women went into an uproar. Pattern? maybe, IN MY OPINION.
Could you include that in your post above, maybe in RED. In Jac's opinion: or does it only suit you to write it that way when you're directing others? (it was a question, and didn't mean to be offending and I'm sorry therefore if you take it as such) :P
There's taking people's feelings into consideration, and there's having little to no disregard for other's feelings. I believe I know the difference jac, it's not up to you to tell me and instruct me on ways to communicate either (even if I don't, or you think I don't). That is the gol' darn honest truth and before you said you appreciated that, and if it couldn't be shared between friends, then what kind of friends would they be?
pb
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Thanks for the reminder, Jac.
I needed to go back and re-read Jack's posts from May to refresh my awareness.
Jack, you had so many insights already, sprinkled through your posts in May (and I have to say at one point you said how very helpful our responses here had been...):
So here are some new somewhat rambling thoughts after re-reading your first round:
she is like your unavailable, psycho-ish N father who toyed with you but never loved you
Your mother was compliant, and focused on transactions (a key? like, I give up this, you give up that, these things prove our coupledom. Your mother: I scrimp for the family here, I save there, these things prove my motherdom)
I am just feeling sad for you now. I truly think it's not completely about the g/f but she is a catalyst for a lot of awareness that is straining to rise up in you, and help you heal from old hurts. She's toying with you too, although I could identify with some of her resistance on a feminist level. But she does not sound like a good egg to me.
And you sound hoooked, angry, resentful, hurt, and obsessed.
All of which I can relate to.
Have you ever considered getting into therapy for a long stretch?
I think it would be wonderful for you to also have a wise 3-D ally while you continue trying to let go...
there is much, much, much to unravel that will free you, Jack.
You really can be freed of living in league with ghosts.
Hops
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OK Ladies,
Firstly I see that same hypersensitivity in Penelope's posts that I have encountered in some other self-promoting feminists. They seem to find offense where none exists (please do not give me that stuff about personal perceptions) . Pene, I have nothing to apologise for so there will be none offered.
I originally asked for comments. I have received some valuable opinions(albeit guarded )
My ex g/f has demonstrated extreme hypervigilance and is showing signs of emotional exhaustion.
In part, I am really sympathetic to her condition which has deteriorated in the past 3 months.
She has seen a therapist(another feminist) and her condition has worsened (at least she showed signs of having gone downhill when I last saw her). Her therapist stirred up her hostility and I became the target for a lot of her old anger .
The incident refering to the dance invitation and her response was one of the last straws for me.
She walked out of a social occasion (which embarrassed and hurt me) because I was not giving her exactly the 'right' amount of attention. My remark the next day, "This can't happen again." was fair and legitimate. I cannot understand how any of you thought that this statement was harsh and demanding. The real issue was her walking out !! You all ignored that !
The relationship was combative and competitive from the third month. She did not understand how to balance her 'feminist' leanings with the requirements of an intimate relationship.She also saw me as her adoring worshipper and when I started to want respect and consideration as a man, she rebelled aand became diffiocult . To her, it was all about her --
(BTW, if it makes any difference, the text that I sent her said , " ARE you going to look stunning and gorgeous?' - My post above did misquote my text. IT IS BLOODY OBVIOUS that I was being, complimentary, playful,flirty and cute!
I am old enough to remember the days when women would instinctively understand that meaning)
Jack.
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I knew you wouldn't go away jack, cause see you have too much fight in ya. That's good.
Well, I actually don't require an apology, but I will apologize to you. I'm sorry if anything I've said hurt or offended you. I did want one, so I asked, that's just good communication, asking for what you want. Oh well though, I'll live if I don't get one.
Why is it that feminists curl your toes so? My b/f seems to like em. :)
Seriously, I know a lot of guys your age (hey I'm single - as in unmarried- too) and we've had this stale converstation so many times, it's like an old tape in my head (I happen to be pretty attractive too, so most single guys my age hit on me - although not all, but most - even if they don't want a feminist woman, why is that I wonder?). So what's the deal? If you don't like 'dem feminist types, what are you looking for? Cause a strong, caring woman who knows herself - is healthy. One that would bow to you and let you walk all over her - not healthy. So do you want a thinking/caring woman or do you want a toy? Ask yourself that question jack. And don't reply for my sake.\
What exactly is it you're trying to find in your text messages and dances? What is it that you want from all this great sex? To inhabit this poor woman and see into her very soul? Or do you want a soulmate? A friend to heal you and joke around with you when you're feeling blue - somebody to rub your back when your dog passes away? A partner in crime - just you and her against the world, armed with nothing but good looks, carefree attitutdes and your own arsenal of inside jokes? I'm asking you now to be practical. Can you see a year in the future? What about 4 years? Do you think life will be a big party forever? Don't you think that might get lonely, flitting around from coffee shop to coffee shop, having only superficial engagements and trying to find this knockout dream of yours? For what it's worth, my b/f is the most stunningly attractive guy I've ever met (no kidding, he's a hunk) and I've never danced with him. We've known each other for two years. It's not important to me, see. Neither are the public displays of affection. I know that each day he picks me up to take me home, he's mine. I know that to the core of my being see, so I don't need all the other garbage.
God, I hated being in my 20's for all the reasons you've just reminded me of. bleh! If you were talking about my hypersensitivity for immaturity, you got me pegged!
IT IS BLOODY OBVIOUS that I was being, complimentary, playful,flirty and cute
Was it? How come you're dating a woman so dense then? Oh and jack - lighten up. 8)
pb
p.s. you can talk To me rather than About me you know? Or do I truly scare the living daylights out of you such that it's hard for you to do that?
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Hi Jack,
I'm still analysing...it's all I reallly can try to contribute.
Thought of another thing, since you added more info--about her being so emotionally exhausted that she went into therapy. Coincidentally, I felt the same way near the end of my relationship with my PDA/N bf...drained and confused. I THOUGHT his overwhelming interest was love...but he did have so many rules...
I am thinking (despite all her many faults that you describe in such detail)...that she may be at in therapy to deal with her own ambivalence toward you (in addition to old anger from her childhood). I do think she's angry at you, but she sounds like a kind of person who can't hold a boundary very well, which makes sense. She can't stop coming after your attention, but at the same time, when she gets close to you again, your expectations and needs become apparent, and they overwhelm her. (It truly is possible you're "high maintenance"...I think it's a nasty epithet, but I have been that myself and know it does hint at someone being kind of smothering). Yes, I know, she asks for attention. But she can't handle yours, for some reason.
Do you think it's possible that out of your own old anxieties, you go into a somewhat controlling mindset about her? I know that's what I've done with my tremendous anxiety in the past. What I just thought was that you may have a pattern:
--were you trying to say something when you were attentive to another woman at the dance?
--were you trying to say something when you told her, this can't happen again...
--were you trying to say something when you told her, you're have to give up some freedom...
It does seem to me, honestly, in addition to all her manifest flaws and insecurities and unhealthy behaviors...that you don't seem interested in asking, "What am I contributing to the problem?"
That, for me, is the missing piece.
If you'd like me to offer you a guess as to what your contribution is, I believe that out of fear of loss, you are trying to control her. And in addition to her own problems and relationship fears...there is a piece of her that's fighting that very hard.
It only has a little bit to do with an "ism", Jack. There is a reason I recommend Pema Chodron books.
It sounds miserable for both of you. Hope you'll be able to end it, and stop blaming (her, women here, feminism) and being so defensive...you won't be able to hear anything that might help you grow as long as you make people who are responding to you the enemy.
Make sense? I hope you are willing to look for your own contributions to the unhealthy dynamic. It does take 2.
I think it's not possible so far for you to "sit with" the thought that you may be spilling anger and resentment and a desire to control (a form of punishing) her. (Mom, Dad, women in general?)
If you can sit with that thought, open your mind to it, I think you'll start growing.
I hope you can because you're punishing yourself too.
Hops
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Here we go again ladies,
You both are not listening. I do not want advice about who and what I am or how I may be contributing to the problem(or did) .
If you must know, here are my thoughts. MY contribution to the problem was letting her get away with so much appalling behavior early in the piece,. I should have pressed "delete' on her 6 months ago.
Feminism, per se, does not offend me. I applaud equal salaries and equal opportunities.
HOwever, I do fell irritated by all the dogma - "men are bad, controlling, domineering, possessive, superficial, sex crazy ," ad nauseum .
Blah !
The brittle and reactive style of some of your more 'active' feminist sisters is just annoying. They do themselves no favors by being so aggressive. They get on my nerves just as much as the ego-centric struttin' males in my office.
I looks like I am not making any headway on this forum.
My relationship with my mother is irrelevant. It was superficial aand unsatisfying but I cannot do much about that now.
Maybe I will take a break now.
Jack.
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask if you even know what a feminist is jack. You might be surprised that any woman you'd want to have as a g/f, or mother, or sister, or daugher is and will be a feminist:
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist
Feminism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Feminist)
Jump to: navigation, search
Statue of Emmeline Pankhurst, a famous suffragette, in Victoria Tower Gardens next to the Houses of Parliament, Westminster.
Feminism is a diverse collection of social theories, political movements, and moral philosophies, largely motivated by or concerning the experiences of women. Most feminists are especially concerned with social, political, and economic inequality between men and women; some have argued that gendered and sexed identities, such as "man" and "woman," are socially constructed. Feminists differ over the sources of inequality, how to attain equality, and the extent to which gender and sexual identities should be questioned and critiqued.
Feminist political activists commonly campaign on issues such as reproductive rights (including the right to safe, legal abortion, access to contraception, and the availability of quality prenatal care), violence within a domestic partnership, maternity leave, equal pay, sexual harassment, street harassment, discrimination, and rape. Many feminists today argue that feminism is a grass-roots movement that seeks to cross boundaries based on social class, race, culture, and religion; is culturally specific and addresses issues relevant to the women of that society (for example female genital cutting in Africa or the glass ceiling in developed economies); and debate the extent to which certain issues, such as rape, incest, and mothering, are universal. Themes explored in feminism include patriarchy, stereotyping, objectification, sexual objectification, and oppression.
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Thanks for the 'instruction' Pene.
I find the inhabitants of the outer loonie fringe of feminism really annoying . They are just pests.
My male colleagues are not quite so vocal about this as I am, but they share my irritation.
An example is my ex g/f saying, " KIssing of women by males in public is " male territory marking " behavior."
Bang! man feels confused and rejected for being affectionate. G/f craps on with more haughty stuff. Man then looks elsewhere for female company. Nice job, sweetheart!
Jack.
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Jack: The real issue was her walking out !! You all ignored that !
I'm not sure why it is you want us to say you are the poor picked-on man here, when, by your own choices you seem to keep accepting this woman back into your life (unless I'm mis-reading something).
I won't speak for others again in this posting, but I will say that for myself, when an N walks out of someone's life, I REJOICE over it, not get upset.
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sorry jac,
I can't read anything posted in bold. Sorry but it's a bit - rude.
Could you tone it down a bit?
pb
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sorry you see her that way Jack. Maybe one day you can forgive her.
pb
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can't read anything posted in bold??? oh brother...this reminds me of the people who can't handle red typing on another forum I was on. I wonder where to draw the line between walking on eggshells and seeing things as a bit petty or at least "iffy" When DOES someone finally get past the childhood issues and begin to see through adult eyes? I'm about ready to just head on out of here because I see very little change or growth and that is what I'm all about when it comes to these message boards for the abused. I have nothing more to offer, when I see this sort of thing, other than to roll my eyes. NOw, that probably makes me sound uncaring and narcissistic...so, maybe when it comes to this stuff, I am a bit? I dunno, I just see some things as ridiculous and things that should have been dealt with long ago, especially if someone has been in therapy.
MY opinion.
~RM
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Could it be, seriously, that the world at war is making everyone cranky?
Hops
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I saw a therapist today in an attempt to unravel some of my feelings about my ex relationship.
I outlined to the ther, several anecdotes from our history together. I ncluded the same two events which I posted at the top of this thread. I insisted that the ther., be as blunt as she could be.
Well she said ,in essence, that my ex G/fs remarks were crap,that she is an emotional juvenile and that I will need therapy to recover from the experience.
I could not quit laughing all the way down to the coffee shop. At last, some straight shooting.
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Jac,
You know, I gave you some input and some of what I thought was meaningful, soulful, compassionate advice, but you totally overlooked my posts, or at least you never acknowledged them, which is fine BUT you instead chose to jump on those you could possibly take issue with. I kept reading to see if you were gonna stop going on about those you consider feminists/the ones who gave you straight forward advice and kept telling you that it does no good to label your ex. You didn't, you kept on arguing. Now you've paid money for what you wanted to hear and then came here to brag about it and put down many of us for not giving you what you wanted in the first place. You had an agenda from your first post, that is clear now, and got angry when we didn't all follow along. So my feeling is this---you have issues and it's good you are going to a T because you need it.
I've posted stuff here and didn't always like the reply that I got, but I didn't start picking on the posters, I just took it all in and thought about it. You, on the other hand, have anger/management issues and need to learn that people are not placed in life to please just you, that there are other opinions in this world and that it's o.k. to agree to disagree. Now you feel all justified because your T labeled your ex and so now you feel absolved of any responsibility for the relationship going sour, that is very juvenile. If you don't get help, all your relationships are gonna be sour.
Oh, and I don't consider myself a feminists although I do believe in equal pay for equal work and that women are due respect as humans and shouldn't be viewed as objects.
Adrift
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Hi Jack,
I'm glad your T sympathized with you. I hope you'll stay with the process.
I have to say that for me, much of Adrift's first paragraph rings true.
I am trying to figure out for my own sake what it means. I know that my figuring anything out for your sake is not a rational goal right now...and maybe hasn't been. (I sometimes ask myself, why do I engage when others, who've been here longer and likely know a lot more than I do, did not?)
For myself, I think the question I need to sit with is, why was I so determined to keep working with (well, for--not really with) you? I know I wanted to help. But, when my effort didn't seem to mean anything, and the questions I posed were all dismissed, and then your pique intensified...why did I keep trying? (And, on the ego side, why did I keep going and then feel distressed and unappreciated? Why not just move on?)
I think I am very grieved about people's hurt. Just generally. And particularly when I sense that a person's anger is covering hurt, and there is SO much anger in the world. Maybe I slog on because I think if I could help one angry person breathe a little, trust a little, and listen a little...I will have constibuted something. And I have difficulty letting go of anyone at all, even when it might ultimately derail me, drain me, or work to my detriment.
Who knows, it may also have something to do with my very angry brother. He loathed me forever. He loathes feminists, liberals, tree huggers, Unitarians, Democrats, etc. etc. But we've had a few moments as we get older when I see his mind is more open than I had thought, and I see he has learned things about the world that I have not. And...maybe I want to rewrite my childhood, so that my brother would love and respect me.
I wasn't able to help you, and think it would be wise of me not to try any more. But I do wish you well in therapy, and I'm very glad you began the process. This will help you in the long run, I'm sure.
Best of luck,
Hops
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For myself, I think the question I need to sit with is, why was I so determined to keep working with (well, for--not really with) you? I know I wanted to help. But, when my effort didn't seem to mean anything, and the questions I posed were all dismissed, and then your pique intensified...why did I keep trying? (And, on the ego side, why did I keep going and then feel distressed and unappreciated? Why not just move on?)
----------------------
Who knows, it may also have something to do with my very angry brother. He loathed me forever. He loathes feminists, liberals, tree huggers, Unitarians, Democrats, etc. etc. But we've had a few moments as we get older when I see his mind is more open than I had thought, and I see he has learned things about the world that I have not. And...maybe I want to rewrite my childhood, so that my brother would love and respect me.
Hops, I think it is worth trying for a long time when it is your brother. On the board, with someone unknown, for the most part, that person may have to come farther down on your list of who to help. When I've been rebuffed here (and it's only happened a couple times as I recall), I take it to heart as far as, this is a person I can't connect with. There are too many obstacles, most of which have to do with the fact that this is a message board. It's one thing to try harder with a relative, old friend, a neighbor or a co-worker. For me personally, those relationships are tricky enough! I'm kind of a fourth grader in real-life relating! I have no idea how to overcome the built-in obstacles of a place like this. I'm learning to take the good and disregard the rest (and maybe I'm being somewhat cavalier in "dismissing" someone who I don't get along with here, but it's a way of making my healing process manageable). In fact, I'm only participating in this particular thread at this moment because I was struck by your comments and wanted to connect on this issue you brought up. The main subject, I'm done with. And that's that.
Pennyplant
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Thanks, Penny.
I feel understood.
I'm not feeling awful-awful about it...and in a way, the fact that it brought up that bit of self-examination, it was valuable exchange. The good thing about (mild) tussles here is it's a safe space, in the sense of being a step removed from 3-D, so if you make a mistake or error in judgment, you can reflect on it with less frustration or shame. I always thinks shame prevents me from learning.
It's a good way to learn to process failure, and work on not letting it into my core self.
Thanks again PP. (((PP)))
Hops
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hey jack,
Are you there? Cause I'm about to head off to the sack and I was wondering how you're doing. Do you want to share anything else about the therapy? Was it worth it? Are you going back? What did you think of the T?
How'd you get an appointment so soon anyway, or was this something that was in the works, and yesterday just happened to be the day?
It's a brave thing, taking the step to go to therapy (I know) and if you want to blame it on the ex for awhile, OK. But I think it's a brave thing you did, for yourself, and kind too.
And if you want to chat about it, I'm not mad, hope you don't hate my guts or anything. Maybe I remind you of your ex. If so, I'm sorry.
People don't always tell us exactly what we want to hear, I know. And it's tough and friends aren't perfect, but wouldn't you rather have people on your side than not?
night night
pb
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Jack,
I just have one more comment to make about this whole issue and then I truly am done, I promise. I'm glad the therapist was helpful and you felt she listened to you and validated your feelings (I know, psychobabble). Do you think everything is fixed now, or do you intend to continue to see the therapist? The only reason I ask is, for those of us raised in dysfunctional homes--no matter what form that took--we tend to continue the same patterns of unhealthy behaviors or decision-making until we actually get to the root of what caused them to happen in the first place.
Had I taken some time after my first marriage fell apart, worked through the reasons why I chose to be with such a man and learned how to spot those red flags prior to becoming entangled with someone, I may have made a much better choice in my second marriage. I had buried so many things from my childhood and beyond that needed examining and healing. Unfortunately, that did not happen for me until I was in my early 50's and experiencing a desvastating divorce after 22 years of marriage and 2 children. But, better late than never they say, and now I am in a much better and happier place with so much gratitude for having gotten here. I would not have gotten here, however, if I had not spent all those hours with my very wonderful therapist and gotten down to the nitty gritty of my deep seated wounds and healed them once and for all.
So I just post a word of caution. You were obsessed (your words, not mine) with a woman who had some serious issues, apparently. Being told by an expert that the relationship problems were mostly hers and not yours makes you feel good in the moment (I know because my therapist told me that too), but it won't stop you from making that same mistake again. So while you have chosen to dismiss the comments made by those of us who have actually worked through similar situations, I promise you that it is not just psychobabble and we do have some valid viewpoints.
No matter what, I wish you well.
Brigid
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Brigid and the other ladies -
The advice that you gave me which I ignored MAY be helpful to me and it may be wise.
However, I grew up with N parents and they too gave me advice ,and directions and orders and insults and humiliation. Whenever i asked for something, I received what THEY had decided I should have. They lectured me and preached to me .
Whenever I showed any emotions I was shut down and belittled. Whenever I expressed myself in the only way that made sense to me I was told to be silent and listen to THEM.
Whenever i was in conflict with anyone outside my family, my parents sided with the stranger and told me that I should look at how I was contributing to the conflict.
All I ever wanted was for ONE of my parents to stand up for me, to listen to my hurt and frustration and tell me that it will be OK.
Do you ladies realize how much you sound a like my parents ?
Jack.
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sorry jack,
that is very painful and I'm glad you told me.
Sometimes people can have great intentions, but then when they go and try to carry through on the plan, it gets all fouled up.
hope you're willing to forgive me, at least.
pb
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Hi Jack,
I am sorry it wasn't evident (truly)--but I'm fairly certain that in addition to my persistent suggestions for introspection and ownership of your contributions, I felt genuine compassion and concern for you, with a desire that you not experience the harmful obsession that I have myself. I am sure of my motives, but I'm sorry they didn't come across well enough for you to notice I was speaking from a place of caring. (A detour into momentary frustration notwithstanding.)
It's so good that you have connected your reactions to some of the responses here to your feelings about your parents. That's excellent. A foundation for life-changing awareness and your T work ahead.
Wishing you much happiness,
Hops
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Some advice from Mary Jo that I thought might be applicable here...
But is He or She Really a Narcissist?
copyright by Mary Jo Fay
July 28, 2006
Greetings fellow survivors,
I hope you are all growing and healing this summer, and on to new strength, relationships, love, and health! It's always encouraging to me to see my clients heal, as they put more and more distance between themselves and the unhealthy people who have caused much destruction, pain, and anguish in their lives. As they learn how to strengthen their boundaries for safety and love. And as they begin to truly believe they are valuable, worthy people ... people deserving to be treated well, loved unconditionally, and respected as equals in all their relationships.
And yet, when I first start working with these folks all desperate for help, one question is always at the forefront of their interaction with me...
"Yes, but ... is he (she?) REALLY a narcissist?"
As Dr. Sam Vaknin points out, labeling someone with a diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is the job of a qualified psychological health professional. However, many people demonstrate some narcissistic behaviors from time to time. While that doesn't mean we all have NPD, a consistent display of narcissistic traits can be destructive to those of us stuck interacting with the "bad behaving ones," and that's where the problem lies.
So instead of asking the question, "Yes, but is he (or she) REALLY a narcissist?" The questions I consistently ask them instead is, "Do you feel healthy in this relationship? Do you feel equal? Do you feel controlled and/or manipulated? Do you feel bad about yourself? Do you feel sorry for the way your children are treated in this environment? Are you struggling with constant depression? Do you feel like you're on an emotional roller coaster or are walking on eggshells around this person every time they're near?"
These are truly the important questions ... not the ones related to a diagnosis. The partner driving this victim to these feelings may have any number of psychological ills going on. Some may be treatable, some may not. (Again, diagnosis by a psychological professional can determine this.)
However, what IS important is that the victim do something about the situation! Remaining in an unhealthy environment, especially when children are being affected, is the unhealthiest part of the equation.
I also believe that each "victim" must understand that his or her own "baggage," combined with that of the victimizing partner, is what sets the dynamic up to begin with.
For example, let's say narcissistic behaviors or "traits" can be depicted on a sliding scale, with healthy narcissism being One (on a scale of one to ten) and Narcissistic Personality Disorder being a Ten. One doesn't have to be demonstrating behaviors in the 8 or 9 range to do some pretty extensive damage to those around them ... especially if those around them have issues in their past that leave them more vulnerable to abusive treatment to begin with.
Looked at from another angle, a very emotionally healthy and strong person might be able to work in an environment with someone with some pretty severe narcissistic behaviors and still maintain their ongoing emotional health by setting pretty strong emotional and physical boundaries, keeping their self-esteem intact, and by understanding how not to play into the manipulative games of the narcissist, or otherwise "bad behaving person".
And yet, someone who may only demonstrate a low level of narcissistic traits can cause severe damage to someone much less protected. Take for instance, someone with minimally but consistent narcissistic traits. (For point of reference, let's say he's a 3 on our scale of one to ten.) Now throw him together with a weaker partner who comes from an abusive background, a childhood living with an alcoholic parent, or some other life-altering situation including things like suffering from post traumatic stress. This can just as easily become a set-up for damage, and the manipulation and abuse that can occur within this relationship can be substantial. Each person brings their "stuff" to this relationship and that's where the problem lies. Each one must heal from their own baggage if this relationship is to work.
And unfortunately, many narcissistic types refuse to seek help because they see all the problems lying external to them ... if everyone else would just "get fixed," then all would be fine once again. Herein lies one of the key problems in being involved with these difficult people ... For someone to change his or her behavior, they must first acknowledge that they too have something to work on. So if your partner simply brushes off all the problems within your relationship as yours and is not willing to seek help for his or her role in the relationship, then this is one of your first clues that you are fighting an uphill battle to begin with.
And thus, I return to the question I ask of my new clients: "Do you feel healthy in this relationship?"
Perhaps one partner has one of many other issues that they are dealing with ... Borderline Personality Disorder, Bi-Polar, Schizophrenia, or any other. (There may be more than one issue occurring at the same time.) While these may not be narcissistic issues, they can still leave an entire family struggling with pain, anguish, fear, confusion, depression, and life-long struggles with self-esteem and more.
And sadly enough, this unhealthy pattern is destined to continue. Children raised in these unhealthy environments have much higher odds of ending up as grown-ups in unhealthy environments as well, because they have no reference outside of their dysfunctional family, as to what real "healthy" relationships look like. As a result, they frequently are attracted to these types of people in later life, thus repeating the cycle of what is "normal" for them.
Unless a conscious understanding of this situation occurs, and a conscious choice is made to take a different tack, a vast number of victims are destined to repeat their relationship patterns over and over again.
So if you find yourself in any kind of relationship where you are constantly feeling bad, unequal, controlled, manipulated, frightened, depressed, angry, unsafe, or like you're chronically walking on eggshells around the one who is supposed to be your loving partner, business partner, parent, or best friend, then I once again return the question to you,
"Do you feel healthy in this relationship?"
Of course, then there is always the question of "What are your issues that are allowing this relationship to continue as well?"
The bigger focus of my work to helping my clients heal is NOT spending much time focusing on the behavior of the abuser, beyond simply clarifying and understanding how manipulation and abuse works - emotionally as well as physically or sexually. We all know we cannot easily change anyone else, no matter what the root of their problem. (Ever just try to get someone to quit smoking, much less change their personality or interpersonal behaviors?)
By better understanding what makes us tick, we can more easily see how we got into unhealthy relationships, what made us believe we deserved such treatment to begin with, and why we stayed. The next step is to learn how to get out, as well as how to break the unhealthy dynamic and move on to more emotionally healthy relationships with ourselves and others.
Difficult relationships can strip you of more than you know. Self-esteem. Enjoying life. Being passionate about something. Feeling safe in your own home.
And yet, I truly believe that ...
The most difficult relationship that most of people have,
is the one they have with themselves!
Until you can get that most important relationship on a rock solid foundation, with a belief in your worth as a person on this planet, a strong and healthy self-esteem, and an ability to recognize bad behavior and not settle for it for yourself or your children, then dealing with difficult people will always be a constant in your life.
"But is he or she really a narcissist?"
Doesn't much matter.
"Am I living in an unhealthy relationship for me and my children?"
Now that's the question that you can do something with!
For more information on emotional healing from difficult people, click here:
http://www.outoftheboxx.com/surviving-narcissim.htm
As always, if you wish to be removed from this newsletter, simply drop me a line!
Mary Jo Fay, RN, MSN
Speaker, columnist, screenwriter, and award-winning author:
Please Dear, Not Tonight: The Truth About Women and Sex
and
When Your Perfect Partner Goes Perfectly Wrong
and
Get Out of Your Boxx!!
www.outoftheboxx.com
office 303-841-7691
cell 303-638-3164
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She's great, PB!
Thanks for sharing this. It's really helping about the "sliding scale" of N-stuff.
Hops
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Jack,
I think your last post showed a marvelous insight and pretty much explains all you have been saying up to now on the thread. Congrats on identifying and communicating that trigger. That is a big breakthrough, I think.
In future, if you want or need support foremost, you might want to just say so upfront instead of leaving it to chance. For example, "I am feeling X and really need Y support right now before any advice is given."
Try to remember at all times that we are not your parents, we are not anything like your parents, and if we sound like your parents, it is just a coincidence and does not have the meaning it seems to.
I'm very sorry you had such a lack of support when you were young. You can fill in that void now, as an adult, but in an adult way by managing the process more. It might feel better if someone just figures out what you need and provides it, but realistically, you might have unsatisfying experiences that way, so best make it happen by asking directly for what you need and giving enough information so people understand where you are coming from. The support is still genuine, real, and great enough to meet your need.
Good luck with your T and see you later.
Still a well-adjusted feminist
Plucky