Disentangled and bewildered

[penelope]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask if you even know what a feminist is jack.  You might be surprised that any woman you'd want to have as a g/f, or mother, or sister, or daugher is and will be a feminist:

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist

Feminism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Feminist)
Jump to: navigation, search
 
 
Statue of Emmeline Pankhurst, a famous suffragette, in Victoria Tower Gardens next to the Houses of Parliament, Westminster.
Feminism is a diverse collection of social theories, political movements, and moral philosophies, largely motivated by or concerning the experiences of women. Most feminists are especially concerned with social, political, and economic inequality between men and women; some have argued that gendered and sexed identities, such as "man" and "woman," are socially constructed. Feminists differ over the sources of inequality, how to attain equality, and the extent to which gender and sexual identities should be questioned and critiqued.
Feminist political activists commonly campaign on issues such as reproductive rights (including the right to safe, legal abortion, access to contraception, and the availability of quality prenatal care), violence within a domestic partnership, maternity leave, equal pay, sexual harassment, street harassment, discrimination, and rape. Many feminists today argue that feminism is a grass-roots movement that seeks to cross boundaries based on social class, race, culture, and religion; is culturally specific and addresses issues relevant to the women of that society (for example female genital cutting in Africa or the glass ceiling in developed economies); and debate the extent to which certain issues, such as rape, incest, and mothering, are universal. Themes explored in feminism include patriarchy, stereotyping, objectification, sexual objectification, and oppression.

[anony123]

Thanks for the 'instruction' Pene.

I find the inhabitants of the outer loonie fringe of feminism really annoying . They are just pests.
My male colleagues are not quite so vocal about this as I am, but they share my irritation.
An example is my ex g/f saying, " KIssing of women by males in public is " male territory marking " behavior." 
 Bang! man feels confused and rejected for being affectionate. G/f craps on with more haughty stuff. Man then looks elsewhere for female company. Nice job, sweetheart!

Jack.

[reallyME]

Jack: The real issue was her walking out !! You all ignored that !

I'm not sure why it is you want us to say you are the poor picked-on man here, when, by your own choices you seem to keep accepting this woman back into your life (unless I'm mis-reading something). 

I won't speak for others again in this posting, but I will say that for myself, when an N walks out of someone's life, I REJOICE over it, not get upset.

[penelope]

sorry jac,

I can't read anything posted in bold.  Sorry but it's a bit - rude.

Could you tone it down a bit?

pb

[penelope]

sorry you see her that way Jack.  Maybe one day you can forgive her.

pb

[reallyME]

can't read anything posted in bold??? oh brother...this reminds me of the people who can't handle red typing on another forum I was on.  I wonder where to draw the line between walking on eggshells and seeing things as a bit petty or at least "iffy"  When DOES someone finally get past the childhood issues and begin to see through adult eyes?  I'm about ready to just head on out of here because I see very little change or growth and that is what I'm all about when it comes to these message boards for the abused.  I have nothing more to offer, when I see this sort of thing, other than to roll my eyes.  NOw, that probably makes me sound uncaring and narcissistic...so, maybe when it comes to this stuff, I am a bit?  I dunno, I just see some things as ridiculous and things that should have been dealt with long ago, especially if someone has been in therapy.

MY opinion.

~RM

[Hopalong]

Could it be, seriously, that the world at war is making everyone cranky?

Hops

[Jackie45]

I saw a therapist today in an attempt to unravel some of my feelings about my ex relationship.
I outlined to the ther, several anecdotes from our history together. I ncluded the same two events which I posted at the top of this thread. I insisted that the ther., be as blunt as she could be.

Well she said ,in essence, that my ex G/fs remarks were crap,that she is an emotional juvenile and that I will need therapy to recover from the experience.
I could not quit laughing all the way down to the coffee shop. At last, some straight shooting.

[adrift]

Jac,

You know,  I gave you some input and some of what I thought was meaningful, soulful, compassionate advice, but you totally overlooked my posts, or at least you never acknowledged them, which is fine BUT you instead chose to jump on those you could possibly take issue with.  I kept reading to see if you were gonna stop going on about those you consider feminists/the ones who gave you straight forward advice and kept telling you that it does no good to label your ex.  You didn't, you kept on arguing.  Now you've paid money for what you wanted to hear and then came here to brag about it and put down many of us for not giving you what you wanted in the first place.  You had an agenda from your first post, that is clear now, and got angry when we didn't all follow along.  So my feeling is this---you have issues and it's good you are going to a T because you need it. 

I've posted stuff here and didn't always like the reply that I got, but I didn't start picking on the posters, I just took it all in and thought about it.  You, on the other hand, have anger/management issues and need to learn that people are not placed in life to please just you, that there are other opinions in this world and that it's o.k. to agree to disagree.  Now you feel all justified because your T labeled your ex and so now you feel absolved of any responsibility for the relationship going sour, that is very juvenile.  If you don't get help, all your relationships are gonna be sour.


Oh, and I don't consider myself a feminists although I do believe in equal pay for equal work and that women are due respect as humans and shouldn't be viewed as objects.


Adrift

[Hopalong]

Hi Jack,
I'm glad your T sympathized with you. I hope you'll stay with the process.

I have to say that for me, much of Adrift's first paragraph rings true.

I am trying to figure out for my own sake what it means. I know that my figuring anything out for your sake is not a rational goal right now...and maybe hasn't been. (I sometimes ask myself, why do I engage when others, who've been here longer and likely know a lot more than I do, did not?)

For myself, I think the question I need to sit with is, why was I so determined to keep working with (well, for--not really with) you? I know I wanted to help. But, when my effort didn't seem to mean anything, and the questions I posed were all dismissed, and then your pique intensified...why did I keep trying? (And, on the ego side, why did I keep going and then feel distressed and unappreciated? Why not just move on?)

I think I am very grieved about people's hurt. Just generally. And particularly when I sense that a person's anger is covering hurt, and there is SO much anger in the world. Maybe I slog on because I think if I could help one angry person breathe a little, trust a little, and listen a little...I will have constibuted something. And I have difficulty letting go of anyone at all, even when it might ultimately derail me, drain me, or work to my detriment.

Who knows, it may also have something to do with my very angry brother. He loathed me forever. He loathes feminists, liberals, tree huggers, Unitarians, Democrats, etc. etc. But we've had a few moments as we get older when I see his mind is more open than I had thought, and I see he has learned things about the world that I have not. And...maybe I want to rewrite my childhood, so that my brother would love and respect me.

I wasn't able to help you, and think it would be wise of me not to try any more. But I do wish you well in therapy, and I'm very glad you began the process. This will help you in the long run, I'm sure.

Best of luck,

Hops

[pennyplant]

For myself, I think the question I need to sit with is, why was I so determined to keep working with (well, for--not really with) you? I know I wanted to help. But, when my effort didn't seem to mean anything, and the questions I posed were all dismissed, and then your pique intensified...why did I keep trying? (And, on the ego side, why did I keep going and then feel distressed and unappreciated? Why not just move on?)

----------------------

Who knows, it may also have something to do with my very angry brother. He loathed me forever. He loathes feminists, liberals, tree huggers, Unitarians, Democrats, etc. etc. But we've had a few moments as we get older when I see his mind is more open than I had thought, and I see he has learned things about the world that I have not. And...maybe I want to rewrite my childhood, so that my brother would love and respect me.

Hops, I think it is worth trying for a long time when it is your brother.  On the board, with someone unknown, for the most part, that person may have to come farther down on your list of who to help.  When I've been rebuffed here (and it's only happened a couple times as I recall), I take it to heart as far as, this is a person I can't connect with.  There are too many obstacles, most of which have to do with the fact that this is a message board.  It's one thing to try harder with a relative, old friend, a neighbor or a co-worker.  For me personally, those relationships are tricky enough!  I'm kind of a fourth grader in real-life relating!  I have no idea how to overcome the built-in obstacles of a place like this.  I'm learning to take the good and disregard the rest (and maybe I'm being somewhat cavalier in "dismissing" someone who I don't get along with here, but it's a way of making my healing process manageable).  In fact, I'm only participating in this particular thread at this moment because I was struck by your comments and wanted to connect on this issue you brought up.  The main subject, I'm done with.  And that's that.

Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Penny.
I feel understood.

I'm not feeling awful-awful about it...and in a way, the fact that it brought up that bit of self-examination, it was valuable exchange. The good thing about (mild) tussles here is it's a safe space, in the sense of being a step removed from 3-D, so if you make a mistake or error in judgment, you can reflect on it with less frustration or shame. I always thinks shame prevents me from learning.

It's a good way to learn to process failure, and work on not letting it into my core self.
Thanks again PP. (((PP)))

Hops

[penelope]

hey jack,
Are you there?  Cause I'm about to head off to the sack and I was wondering how you're doing.  Do you want to share anything else about the therapy?  Was it worth it?  Are you going back?  What did you think of the T?

How'd you get an appointment so soon anyway, or was this something that was in the works, and yesterday just happened to be the day?

It's a brave thing, taking the step to go to therapy (I know) and if you want to blame it on the ex for awhile, OK.  But I think it's a brave thing you did, for yourself, and kind too.

And if you want to chat about it, I'm not mad, hope you don't hate my guts or anything.  Maybe I remind you of your ex.  If so, I'm sorry. 

People don't always tell us exactly what we want to hear, I know.  And it's tough and friends aren't perfect, but wouldn't you rather have people on your side than not?

night night
pb

[Brigid]

Jack,
I just have one more comment to make about this whole issue and then I truly am done, I promise.  I'm glad the therapist was helpful and you felt she listened to you and validated your feelings (I know, psychobabble).  Do you think everything is fixed now, or do you intend to continue to see the therapist?  The only reason I ask is, for those of us raised in dysfunctional homes--no matter what form that took--we tend to continue the same patterns of unhealthy behaviors or decision-making until we actually get to the root of what caused them to happen in the first place.

Had I taken some time after my first marriage fell apart, worked through the reasons why I chose to be with such a man and learned how to spot those red flags prior to becoming entangled with someone, I may have made a much better choice in my second marriage.  I had buried so many things from my childhood and beyond that needed examining and healing.  Unfortunately, that did not happen for me until I was in my early 50's and experiencing a desvastating divorce after 22 years of marriage and 2 children.  But, better late than never they say, and now I am in a much better and happier place with so much gratitude for having gotten here.  I would not have gotten here, however, if I had not spent all those hours with my very wonderful therapist and gotten down to the nitty gritty of my deep seated wounds and healed them once and for all.

So I just post a word of caution.  You were obsessed (your words, not mine) with a woman who had some serious issues, apparently.  Being told by an expert that the relationship problems were mostly hers and not yours makes you feel good in the moment (I know because my therapist told me that too), but it won't stop you from making that same mistake again.  So while you have chosen to dismiss the comments made by those of us who have actually worked through similar situations, I promise you that it is not just psychobabble and we do have some valid viewpoints.

No matter what, I wish you well.

Brigid

[anony123]

Brigid and the other ladies -
The advice that you gave me which I ignored MAY be helpful to me and it may be wise.

However, I grew up with N parents and they too gave me advice ,and directions and orders and insults and humiliation. Whenever i asked for something, I received what THEY had decided I should have. They lectured me and preached to me .
Whenever I showed any emotions I was shut down and belittled. Whenever I expressed myself in the only way that made sense to me I was told to be silent and listen to THEM.

Whenever i was in conflict with anyone outside my family, my parents sided with the stranger and told me that I should look at how I was contributing to the conflict.

All I ever wanted was for ONE of my parents to stand up for me, to listen to my hurt and frustration and tell me that it will be OK.

Do you ladies realize how much you sound a like my parents ?

Jack.