Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on July 30, 2006, 12:01:45 AM
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I posted the very quotes from someone on this board...PROVED to you all, that I was told first to answer questions and then not to respond, and not one of you said "hey, that was a mixed message!" "hey! bait and switch goin on there" Ummmm, and you all were raised or acquainted with N's? So are we all TRULY voiceless when such a blatant thing happens on this message board? You see an N trait played out right before your eyes, and stand back to watch it happen and watch the person be utterly blasted. hmmmm, giving me some thoughts here for sure. Thanks so much for exhibiting another "bystander effect" all who saw this and did NOTHING.
~ReallyDISAPPOINTED
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I made a mistake. I admit it.
ya know, in a weird way I'm glad that I said something about how you make me feel RM, cause if you really needed attention that badly, I'm happy to give you some.
ciao, bean
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:wink: :wink:
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Hi RM and Pb:
I want to ask you both something and I hope that it won't be interpreted to mean that I am taking sides or trying to stir up conflict or sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong or that I am having some reaction or projecting junk from the past or that I'm some kind of evil being here looking for drama or that my intention is in any way designed to cause harm or to make things worse. I really hope that won't happen because this is just a simple question for both of you to consider and maybe answer, if you feel like it, which could possibly help you communicate with eachother ....your intentions/wishes. If it doesn't help, please know that it is my intent to help by asking and please do your best to just ignor this whole post if it's not helping.
What do you want, in regard to communication with eachother, and what are your intentions when you post to eachother?
Sela
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Laura
Laura, I don’t know what happened, I haven’t read it. Did you get utterly blasted? Did it hurt, are you upset, rendered voiceless – did you feel abused? Are you able to respond and react for yourself? Because:
Thanks so much for exhibiting another "bystander effect" all who saw this and did NOTHING.
I might have said something if I saw someone be abusive towards someone else. But I didn’t see it because i haven't read it. Thinking about you and me though, aren’t we able to speak for ourselves? I don’t expect anyone to speak up for me here because of the persona I show here. This is a psychology board, first and foremost I think, or at least that's how I see it.
On the other hand, if I think something is abusive, I’ll say so. I don’t know how I would react in a real ‘bystander effect’ situation, but those old experiments showed that 65% of people don’t act. That’s the majority. You know the reasons? – diffused responsibility etc. Please don’t blame or shame anyone here for not acting. The majority of people don’t act – fact. And hey, nobody dies here. What happened to you - others may not interpret as abusive (possible? i don't know.) It’s words. Words can hurt but it’s not the same as witnessing a rape in front of your house. Yes?
Pb
You made a mistake (you say) but are you sorry in any way? Just wondering. You don’t sound sorry, you sound as though you might want to add fuel to the fire so to speak. Hey I can do that too. I wonder what it is in certain people that sets me off. I guess I must be seeing remnants of my parents or even parts of my dark side in them. Or the style of exchange might be too 'familiar' for me to resist (I'm working on it, or trying to....).
Sela, I like your question. Nothing wrong with it as far as I can see. My opinion.
I don’t know. Sometimes these relationships (and I think Laura and Pb, you are in a relationship, because both parties engage, it’s not like one ignores the other or doesn’t care, both of you seem to care enough in some way to continue) have to play out. Laura and Pb, maybe you both see this? And maybe I’ll butt out now, maybe not, see what happens. It's all work in progress eh?
Take care all, bye for now
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jac,
I was truly sorry and I was truly looking for a way to resolve my conflict with reallyme.
It's OK if no one here understands that. I understand it in my heart.
I also understand all the people's voices who've PM'd me who have said that reallyme is really gouging old wounds of their's - I can relate to that and maybe thus the appropriate thing to do is to invite them to PM me about it, I will listen and understand. I've not posted to or about reallyme before yesterday for many months, so not sure how I can be stirring her up?
take care, jac
I don't see much of myself in reallyme, but I do see my abusers there. And some others do too. By the way - I think talking about abuse behind people's backs is perfectly OK for anyone who needs to, if that is the only safe place they can find on this board.
bean
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hi sela -
I will try to post an answer to you objectively, but it's a little hard to hear over all the loud buzzing in my head, which is what happens when people seem not to understand.
Reallyme and I aren't having another (new) conflict. I simply asked if she wouldn't make mean references to me in her posts, which I occasionally do read. I said that her words had a tremendous affect on my as she reminds me of my abusers (N mom and sisters) or other people that I don't particularly like. So that was my intent in posting to her. Also, others have expressed this too, and I wanted them to know that if reallyme is scaring and intimidating them too, that they are not alone.
Now let me ask you a question sela:
What do you want, in regard to communication with us, and what are your intentions when you post to us?
I'll wait for your answer.
bean
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Pb
You made a mistake (you say) but are you sorry in any way? Just wondering. You don’t sound sorry, you sound as though you might want to add fuel to the fire so to speak. Hey I can do that too. I wonder what it is in certain people that sets me off. I guess I must be seeing remnants of my parents or even parts of my dark side in them. Or the style of exchange might be too 'familiar' for me to resist (I'm working on it, or trying to....).
Sela, I like your question. Nothing wrong with it as far as I can see. My opinion.
I don’t know. Sometimes these relationships (and I think Laura and Pb, you are in a relationship, because both parties engage, it’s not like one ignores the other or doesn’t care, both of you seem to care enough in some way to continue) have to play out. Laura and Pb, maybe you both see this? And maybe I’ll butt out now, maybe not, see what happens. It's all work in progress eh?
Take care all, bye for now
hi Portia, how are ya? I'm sorry I did not sound sorry to you - cause I truly did feel sorry that we weren't communicating, reallyme and I. Not sure how I can convey that better, do you have an particular suggestions about how I could write that more genuinely, or so it comes across more genuinely, cause I gave it my all, and if it didn't have its intended affect (reallyme can say whether she thinks it did or not) then maybe you two have some specific suggestions on how I could sound more sincere. Cause I certainly am feeling quite sincere in my request to
1) not have mean things said about me
2) apologize for any harm I might have caused reallyme which would cause her to want to continue to say mean, hateful things to and about me
So yes, I'm confronting her directly about this and I'm real sorry this happend. Everytime she posts to or about me, I'm sorry for whatever it is I may have done (Reminded her of Jodi?) that she can't seem to get out of her head. I wonder if there's anything I can say that will help at this point.
I tried appealing to her humanistic side, and I did not lie when I said others are struggling too. They have not vocalized this (other than seeker) in any of the threads, that I know of, but they are hurting too I believe. From the PM's.
My theory is this: people come to this board at all different levels and places of healing for support, not just info. Reallyme's flippant and careless attitude, and the way she often responds, reminds them of their abusers. It's so harmful to some people, I think they have real anxiety about it. That's the sense I get from reading some of the PM's anyway. I have felt this at times, but sometimes reallyme is just an annoyance; other times, when I'm really trying to delve deeper into something painful, her comments have to potential to do great harm to me as I am very honest and forthcoming here, and trusting. I guess I shouldn't trust everyone here though, it's my nature to do so cause I wan't to heal. But I have to be guarded with her, which is sad in a place that should be about healing for all.
Maybe if enough of us are feeling bad about this, we can approach Dr G and ask him what to do about it. I don't expect many of you to understand and I have my ideas about why that is too. Some of you are much more healthy than a lot of people that come here, and thus perhaps someone like reallyme wouldn't intimidate you, or phase you at all. But some of us have a real aversion to this. Some of us are truly more sensitive than others and it has to do to our specific pasts. Can you understand this Portia? Can you comprehend that although reallyme might not be scary to you, that she could be scary to others? Remember marta? Was she scary to you? She was not scary to me, but I think some people reacted negatively to her "advice" too.
It is a kind thing to tell someone when they're hurting you as it gives them an opportunity to self reflect. If I'd hurt anyone here, I certainly hope they'd tell me - and not just give the careless advice I've seen thus far on this thread "well it looks to me like - although I don't really know what I'm saying..." well, then I guess my question is, if you can't empathize, and feel what I'm feeling, why are you responding? You don't know, if you're assuming I'm not sorry and don't have the best intentions for myself and my own health, why have you responded here? Isn't that a bit careless?
Just some things to think about. I'm going to go off and work on cars with my b/f for the rest of the day, and not sure if I'll be back or not, but you've certainly given me a lot to think about here. I don't know if it's all good or bad or what. Maybe it's just stuff to think about. But I do know what my intentions are, and it's not to Start a conflict. It's to resolve one that has been ongoing for me and others.
It's to say - Ow. That hurt, what you just said, can you please not say that again? That is setting a boundary I think. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that that's what I really want to do, I don't have ulterior motives. I said the words hurt me, they're wounding me, can you please stop saying them to me?
And I am sorry. Very sorry, in more ways then I think anyone here will ever understand, but that's OK, cause I know myself - better each day, in fact.
bean
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Hi Pb
May I come back in?
I said that her words had a tremendous affect on my as she reminds me of my abusers (N mom and sisters) or other people that I don't particularly like. So that was my intent in posting to her.
This sounds fair enough to me! We don’t have to like everyone. Everyone doesn’t have to like us. People we don’t like will still exist though. They will still remind us of abusers. I think what’s important is how we deal with it.
If Laura/RM is saying things about you that are abusive – like saying “Pb is an N” there is answer. You say “I don’t think I am and I don’t care what you think.” And you don’t care. So what about what others think or say about you Pb? What does their opinion matter to you? Why does it matter?
Or you go to the higher authority of Doctor G, if you wish.
One thing I don’t think it’s useful to do: is to try and retaliate. Or to try and get others to agree with you. What's the objective?
If there’s a genuine problem that lots of people have, let them tell Doctor G. Everyone takes responsibility themselves for how they feel, and they decide what action to take, if any. How does that sound?
Also, others have expressed this too, and I wanted them to know that if reallyme is scaring and intimidating them too, that they are not alone.
If RM is scaring and intimidating people, then they have the right to say so, themselves. In fact they could say it right here, if they feel strongly enough. Please don't be scared to speak. Who is too scared to speak? You can let me know on PM if you like. Or you can say right here: "I am too scared to speak about this." Pb, it’s one thing to agree with someone else “oh yes, I agree with you, that’s awful” while standing behind you…..
On the other hand, private conversations can be useful and helpful, a source of comforting reality-checks. I’d have to trust someone a lot to check board reality like that.
I must admit I don’t like groups forming against one member, that's why I'm speaking here, because I feel it's a possibility (i could well be wrong there). I just like to see the facts out in the open and the various involved people come forward to resolve any problems.
About Laura making "mean references" to you Pb, hey, it happens to a lot of us. It has happened to a lot of us here. We can't stop everyone saying mean things. That's what humans are like. We can only learn different ways of reacting and responding I think!
Just caught your next post Pb.....
boundaries are internal. Not external. You can only set your boundaries and act upon them. You cannot control other people through your boundaries. This is important. Sorry Pb got to go, will read more in detail tomorrow, take care (hey, if I didn't care, i wouldn't bother, and neither would you!).
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In fact they could say it right here, if they feel strongly enough. Please don't be scared to speak. Who is too scared to speak? (Portia)
I am.
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hi sugarre,
I know you are as petrified as reallyme as I am and I'm sorry. I wish I could give you a great big hug through the computer, as I don't like how she's treated you either. I have seen it and it's terrifying to watch her do it to others, as terrifying as when it happens to me.
((((((((((((((Sugarre)))))))))))))))))))
I find her behavior to be bullying, ambient abuse and it's made worse when ya'll come in like this and post carelessly and minimize how it feels to be picked on by her, in this manner. Just because it's not happening to you or you don't have the same reaction doesn't mean it's not affecting us. It feels like I'm being blamed for saying how reallyme makes me feel - like I shouldn't feel that. I've said she acts and sounds and conveys the same feelings and emotions in me as my abusers. Is she them? no, but she has the same affect. Knowing this, now why would she choose to continue to post to or about me? There can only be one explanation in my mind, and that is that she enjoys making me feel bad. or she just doesn't care, and can't help it (it's a compulsion)
bean
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There can only be one explanation in my mind, and that is that she enjoys making me feel bad. or she just doesn't care, and can't help it (it's a compulsion)
I think it is because she gets attention.
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Hi bean:
her words had a tremendous affect on my as she reminds me of my abusers (N mom and sisters) or other people that I don't particularly like. So that was my intent in posting to her. Also, others have expressed this too, and I wanted them to know that if reallyme is scaring and intimidating them too, that they are not alone.
So I think you mean your reason for posting to her was to give her information about how her words were affecting you and what those words reminded you of? That you feel afraid and intimidated? Also to let other people know you understand if they are also having a similar reaction?
Just making sure I'm understanding correctly. So then your intention might be said to be to give RM information? Maybe invite others to comment? Then what do you wish to happen? (I assume you want it to stop but I just thought it might be helpful to narrow it down to specifics?).
What do you want, in regard to communication with us, and what are your intentions when you post to us?
I was hoping to possibly help you communicate with eachother ....your intentions/wishes a little more clearly. I think I stated that already but I don't mind repeating it. What I want is to support you both. I think my post is darn claose to redunant now though maybe?
Sela
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hi again portia,
yes, you may come back in.
you know I was thinking about this (in between handing wrenches) and one of the reasons you might be sensitive to this ganging up idea is that a lonnnnnnng time ago, I think a bunch of people on the board called out some behavior of yours that they did not like? Did you feel ganged up on?
I have to admit that this is why I've hesitated bringing this up with reallyme. I don't want her to feel ganged up on, and I certainly appreciate you and others "sticking up for her" (even though as you've always insisted, this it not what you think you're doing).
So that is another reason I decided to keep this out of PMs and put it here on the board for all to see, and comment on if they wish. But I did send her I think two? PM's (can't remember now). And they both pretty much said what I'm saying here now.
She's hurting me, could she please stop. And if there's anything I've done to create or exacerbate the situation, will she now accept my apology? That is how people learn and move on and grow, I believe.
And for all the talking we do on this board about communication, and how it's supposed to go, and all those fine examples jac keeps pulling off the internet and shoving in front of my nose - sometimes I find it a little ironic, that when I try to apply all that here - people are like: Oh no, we didn't me do it HERE. We meant with your Ns, elsewhere...
So that's the gosh darn irony of it for me. I'm reading those articles, I have a pretty good grasp on them I think, so here I am, putting my little self out there for all other to Analyze. That's what it feels like anyway. It's like the one who finally breaks down and admits their feelings, and says what they're really thinking - people don't know how to react to that (and I've done it too, I'll admit. When stormy was having problems with reallyme, I sat on the sidelines not knowing what to say). I guess the appropriate thing to say storm, may have been - I know how you feel. I'm sorry you feel that way, it sucks.
Lot of toughies here on this board, maybe. Lotta folks trying to convince everyone how "together" they've all got it, maybe? And wow, how the projections fly when someone like me gets honest. :wink:
bean
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hi sela -
Yes, it's nice and redundant, thank you. (sometimes that's necessary when you got the old head buzzy thing going on).
OK, I like that sela. Thank you for offering.
I'm waiting for reallyme to respond, if you're offering to mediate.
I do want some sort of resolution, yes. For me and possibly others here too. But don't want to gang up or become scary and intimidating myself - which is why I backed off yesterday (feeling exasperated, cause I don't want to become the abuser here)
bean
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sugarre,
Yes, I think you may have hit the nail right smack dab on the head. I believe too that reallyme (like most of us here) likes attention, and when she feels she's not getting it, she'll go and say something negative or risque, to try to garner some. And heck, it works (sometimes). Often I've thought about responding: just wait a minute reallyme, hops will be along soon (but since I wasn't responding to her, I couldn't)
Maybe this seems harmless to her, but for some of us, it's terrifying. It's worse now that I've said something and her reply has been: "HOW COULD I BE SCARY LITTLE OL ME COULDN'T DO A THING." (paraphrased, of course) And gosh, I don't have an explanation, but maybe you're just triggering the right neurons in my brain that plug into the ol memory bank that says: BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP,< this is what your abusers used to do to you. >
Heck, I don't know how it works, but it works, that's all I'm saying.
Occasionally other people will trigger me too, and I get over it and forget for the most part. I mean, I can't typically hold a grudge for over an hour. Seriously, I forget. I have a very trusting soul, that's what happens when you've lived life with little to zilch boundaries, the world is your friend (people have to keep reeling me back in cause I go back for more, unnecessarily).
But here, I think that I'd like to give reallyme a chance to explain, cause I don't know why but I have a hard time accepting that this has to and should go on like this. I mean, the stakes are kind of high, I think. There's potential to do a lot of damage here - on this board which is less about Learning about Ns, and more about Healing. (just my opinion there)
bean
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Hiya Bean:
I do want some sort of resolution, yes. For me and possibly others here too.
I'm glad to hear that! I'm hoping RM will answer my redundant question too. Maybe it will help? I don't think anyone here wants to gang up on anyone else or to be intimidating to anyone else but unless they say so, I'm only guessing. That's my best bet! You've said you don't want to gang up and that you want resolution. I believe you.
if you're offering to mediate
Hmmmmm?? Am I? Am I qualified for that? Maybe a little? I do actually like both of you and think it's possible to work this out. I don't like to think of either person feeling either ganged up upon or intimidated. I could try? If you both want me to? If it would help, I'd certainly be glad to try. I'm no expert though but I'm not sure one has to be? Maybe it would help?
I have to get off here now but I'll check back when I can to see what you both think? Might not be until tomorow morning. How about this? How about waiting to see what RM has to say (if she chooses to post here)?
I have to admit. It's scary to volunteer for such an undertaking. But I'm trying to be brave too.
Sela
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Penelope/B, I see elements of the characteristic traits that you have vocally said you dislike in RM in your posts, but only when you post as Penelope - that's my personal observation
jac - you have seen elements...
What? Now this sounds like something my N mother would say to me. Jac, what is your point of posting this to me? I don't get it. I really truly am confused about what you're saying to me here. Did something I say hurt You. If so, can you be specific. If not, what's this vague reference to some behavior I purportedly show only when posting as penelope? I don't buy it. Cause reallyme says I'm "better" as penelope, and you thought I was better as bean. -guess what, it's just a login script. I only post as one person, and that's me.
This isn't me playing penelope now, and before I was playing bean. I am penelope bean (think of it as having two names, and before I was using my middle name).
Jac, I think you're confused. I think you've had a lot of crap going on lately with the roomate situation, and I think you're losing touch. I've seen a change in you..but. I still recognize you as jac.
I think you're being a bit hard on a lot of folks here lately, starting with that post about how three individuals trigger you. That's my observation of your behavior. Ooooh. Did it hurt to hear that? I hope not, but if it did, can you imagine a little of how what you've said about my (seemingly changing) behavior might feel to me?
I think it's B.S., in other words.
I have been in therapy for almost a year now. So of course there are going to be changes. But I've been on the same meds for two years, and nothing major is going on in my life. So I don't see how I could be posting dramatically differently from bean to penelope. I'm open to the idea of it though, so if you could come up with some specific examples that might help - but please, be kind.
pb
on edit:
hey jac,
People in pain can hurt - but it's also been my experience that people in pain can be a tremendous healing force for one another (I've seen it on this board in fact!)
Something got you down lately? You seem sort of - depressed.
I know what it's like to wear depression goggles, I wore them for many many years. It's when you can only see a negative outcome, and you can't find room for the flip side of the coin. There are lots of interpretations to events, in other words. They don't all have to be gloomy.
People here don't create others' feelings. The person who feels something creates the feeling within themselves - often due to a past experience. So if the intention of people is good (which I think it is here for the most part), you can't fault a person if they accidentally cause pain of another.
Also, how can you be so sure that people are causing others pain? If they say so, that's one thing. But I don't often hear people say: "that hurt." And typically when I've said it, you've ignored me. eh?
So I don't think it's fair assuming we're all hurting others here.
pb
I feel like I'm chasing you all over the board here too jac. Did you see this post (above) that I put on the other thread? Cause if you're going to post and run, I'll just stop replying to you now. Please let me know one way or another.
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Sela -
Yes, I am game. I'm pretty much willing to try anything - that's me, openminded. If one thing doesn't work, I'll always try something else (I've already changed my handle, doggonit)
And yes, I agree, You're brave. :)
Rather than just sitting back you've offered to take an active role - very responsible.
If it turns out well or poorly, I hope in either case you come away with a feeling of courage, k?
:)
bean
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p.s. I think this is the trait of a true leader - even when it's scary, they lead anyway.
Hey, maybe it'll be contagious. (wink wink)
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Thanks Bean:
That's nice of you to say. I don't really think I'm any more courageous than anyone else. I think it's a choice to use the courage we all have, somewhere inside. Sometimes, it's just too darn easy not to for me. Does that make sense?
I'm glad you're open minded and willing to try something else. I think we will all learn stuff, no matter what.
So what do you say RM? When you check in here, will you consider answering the question I previously posted and give your decision here? No worries either way. I think it's a matter of choice and trust.
Yo! I gotta run...potatoes boiling all over the place!!
:!: Sela
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Maybe this seems harmless to her, but for some of us, it's terrifying (Penelope)
Yes. It is terrifying. It's like asking those who have disabused us of our "voice" to come join us so we can parse their/our terminology. She's a missionary with an agenda that is not politically correct to question unless we seem to be disparaging the new testament. She's got it made. And she has made available to me her phone number in case I wanted someone to talk to :shock: . PM me if you feel you would like to talk with her personally and I will send you the number.
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Re: Now THIS I find amazing
« Reply #1 on: Today at 12:15:05 AM »
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I made a mistake. I admit it.
ya know, in a weird way I'm glad that I said something about how you make me feel RM, cause if you really needed attention that badly, I'm happy to give you some.
ciao, bean
Well, this is the extent of the apology Penelope is able to give, and I accept, although I notice the alternate jab and daub that goes on afterwards. I understand, Penelope, it's just who you are. For whatever reason you ask me to comment to you and respond, even egging me on, and then when I do, you turn the tables saying "see? see? there's this big bully after me..." why? because you can't seem to handle my comments when they differ from your views on things. You also can't seem to handle people who are very sure of where they stand. Not my problem that you can't handle that; I"m not gonig to be voiceless around you or anyone else, however, I do my best to try and address issues and not attack people. You will see me discussing people's behaviors on this board, just as they have done with mine, since that is what we are limited to on a text-only format.
I don't know you, except by your text. I do know that you are a lot more reasonable-sounding under the PB name rather than just Bean, however. I've noticed it too. I have NOTHING against you as a person...only against your tactics of bait and switch that have been used toward me.
~Laura
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Laura -
I am going to talk to you now very calmly and slowly, k? I'm not upset. Just concerned.
You've PM'd Sugarre and given her your telephone number? Do you know why that could be interpreted by some of us here as scary and inappropriate? Cause we didn't come to this board to receive phone numbers, or offers to come stay with people for a week...for religious or spiritual reasons. We came here for support and strength, in our time of need, to get help with N abuse. That's all. So when you offer your phone number and try to persuade people here to call you - and eventually visit you is implied, I think - that is scary to some. Can you understand this?
Some may not be strong enough to say this to you (I wasn't until today) but when you did this to me it FREAKED ME OUT (I wrote that in caps, cause I know you know what that means - it means, it's important).
What kind of apology would you like from me? Cause some little nagging voice in the back of my head says you won't be happy until I come out to NewYork, is that where you said you live? Or is it Illinois now? Anyway, the nagging voice says you won't be happy until I come out there and visit you and allow you to show me Your Way, Your spiritual way. Cause I think what you're looking for is to mentor someone - and I think you're aggressively recruiting here, on and off. I'm not the only one with this theory, others have mentioned this too...
Again, this spooks me, big time. There is a boundary violation going on at the mere mention of anything remotely close to meeting you - I never intend to do that, it would be Unsafe. Do you understand that reallyme? I think when you imply that it is of a Very Serious Nature. My belief, k?
I'm not saying "see? see? there's this big bully after me..." I'm saying - you're continuing to harm me over and over with mean words. I know I said before I wouldn't leave this board. But if you continue to respond to me in this manner, and if I learn you're harassing others, I may have to. I think it's that serious now.
The following is not true:
you can't seem to handle my comments when they differ from your views on things. You also can't seem to handle people who are very sure of where they stand.
Lot's of people's comments differ from mine. For example, hope and I do not feel the same way about feminism - we can still talk civilly (even lightly) here. I also disagree with others about religion and other things occasionally (the whole gay discussion), but I'm not having any serious problems with others here reallyme. Just you. As far as people who are sure of where they stand: reallyme, I am a professional (engineer). I work in Aerospace for a living. Do you know what that means? It means I fly around the country and visit other professionals as part of my job, I negotiate and solve problems of a technical nature; I fly about once a month...so I work with people who are very sure of where they stand, everyday. Sometimes they convince me of where they stand even. :shock: That's how I learn. I do not have any problem accepting people who are sure of themselves. If I did, I would not be able to work in this field and give talks and other things I do for a living, everyday. See, so I don't have a problem with people who are sure of themselves, confidence abounds, where I work, and in my interpersonal relationships. Heck, I have a therapist who is quite sure of herself too. I myself went to college reallyme, so that's not it - that I can't handle views different than mine. I am very openminded, I've had many jobs in all walks of life reallyme, I've traveled all over this country as part of my job and have worked with various kinds of people. I'm used to being around self-confident people, I work with mostly PhD's these days. How more sure of yourself do you think people get? :wink:
So I don't think it is that you are sure of yourself - that that's why I disagree with you - I think it is that I don't trust you. I don't trust you and it is for a very good reason, I bet. Cause I have pretty sharp instincts. When I was robbed at gunpoint, I knew it was going to happen before it happened. Ditto for the time I was working at a hotel in college and some dood came up to me and quick-changed me (walked away with $200 and I was left holding a sealed thank you card- when we opened it up it was full of paper). You give me this same uneasy feeling reallyme. Do you know you are doing that to me? Do you know why?
So reallyme, it's not that I can't handle you being sure of yourself - I can handle that - I can't handle the words you keep throwing at me, and I don't like the way I've seen you treating others here - and to quote jac "I'm afraid someone might leave." In fact, I know of at least 2 people who've said they will leave the board because of you reallyme. So you are scaring some people, me included.
Do you want to keep scaring them? Continue doing what you're doing. Do you want to talk about this and sort it out and come up with alteratives? I think Sela may be able to help us there. I would really like to know the purpose of handing out your phone number so freely, and why or why this might not be appropriate on this message board. It sounds spooky and scary, definitely, to me.
I"m not going to be voiceless around you or anyone else, however, I do my best to try and address issues and not attack people.
OK, good.
You will see me discussing people's behaviors on this board, just as they have done with mine, since that is what we are limited to on a text-only format.
I don't think I've discussed your behaviors, but if I have I'm sorry. If others keep doing so, can you bring it up with them? Other than saying what you've done to ME, I did not say much after our initial conflict. K? You can go back and look if you're not sure about this, but I'm pretty sure. That's why I feel you're "picking on me." cause I don't know what I've done to deserve this wrath from you. Hops can say something to you, and you take it OK. I changed my name to Penelope and had no problems with you. So I think you became fixated on Bean, for some reason. If you'd like to explore why, I encourage you to do so. But you need to do it in a way that's not scary for others here, OK?
I don't know you, except by your text. I do know that you are a lot more reasonable-sounding under the PB name rather than just Bean, however. I've noticed it too. I have NOTHING against you as a person...only against your tactics of bait and switch that have been used toward me.
I will take this criticism of yours and think about it because it might be valid. I don't think it is, but I'll consider what you might mean by this. Can you elaborate? I think you mean I'm trying to get people here "on my side?" If that's what you mean, it's the farthest thing from my mind to get people here to contact me outside of this board. That would be an invasion of their privacy, I think. People come to this board with the preconception that they won't be harassed in that way (I do anyway). So I would never imply that to anyone here, that I wanted to meet them in person, or that they should call me.
I have 3D people I interact with, I don't think it's safe to meet people from this board in person. Other message boards, that have different themes, is a whole nother story. But this one? It is not appropriate to invite people for spiritual counseling or PM people and tell them to call you, I don't think. So what are my tactics of 'bait and switch' exactly, reallyme, cause I'm not following you. You need to just spell it out for me so I understand, cause I'm not understanding what I'm doing that falls under this category. Can you say what it is you think I'm doing?
Thanks,
pb
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Can you also explain what the two little winks you posted meant, after I posted this:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made a mistake. I admit it.
ya know, in a weird way I'm glad that I said something about how you make me feel RM, cause if you really needed attention that badly, I'm happy to give you some.
to me, I took that to mean that you think I do the same thing? Post just to get attention, to get people riled up, and you're admitting (sort of) to doing this? Is this correct?
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Ah Penelope,
I really have become the thing you most fear and that's RIDICULOUS!
You've PM'd Sugarre and given her your telephone number? Do you know why that could be interpreted by some of us here as scary and inappropriate? Cause we didn't come to this board to receive phone numbers, or offers to come stay with people for a week...for religious or spiritual reasons. We came here for support and strength, in our time of need, to get help with N abuse. That's all. So when you offer your phone number and try to persuade people here to call you - and eventually visit you is implied, I think - that is scary to some. Can you understand this?
First of all, what is this of your business? It's between that person and me.
Secondly, thanks so much for breaking trust, Sugarre. I appreciate that a lot (yes, sarcasm here, cause I'm not happy when trust is violated like this with me)
Thirdly, do I know my giving my number could be scary and inappropriate? Scary? that's about WHO? not me. Unless someone TELLS me that scares them, I DO NOT READ MINDS and to expect me to, is NARCISSISM ("you should have KNOWN THAT WOULD SCARE ME")
INappropriate? It's MY phone number to give to whom I choose. WHere is that inappropriate?
Cause we didn't come to this board to receive phone numbers, or offers to come stay with people for a week...for religious or spiritual reasons. We came here for support and strength, in our time of need, to get help with N abuse.
So now you are the voice on the voicelessness board FOR the voiceless? not sure that's how this whole thing is supposed to work, PB. Does this not make you an enabler for those who choose not to speak for themselves? Is this a healing thing for others or a hindering one, having you tell me what THEY came here for, because your other tactics are not working against me.
and as far as me trying to PERSUADE anyone to call me? Not hardly. I was under the impression that she and I had an understanding between us of having formed a friendship. Why she called YOU regarding something in a PRIVATE MESSAGE (which obviously are not private anymore on the internet), is BEYOND ME and VERY RUDE ON HER PART AS WELL AS A BREACH OF ANY TRUST THAT MIGHT HAVE FORMED EVENTUALLY!
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ya know, everytime I politely try to talk to you, you freak out.
This is not normal RM. This is a sign of a psychotic.
Dr. G, can I say that? I'm just concerned.
OK, I exit now. Let Dr. G sort this one out.
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ya know, everytime I politely try to talk to you, you freak out.
This is not normal RM. This is a sign of a psychotic.
Dr. G, can I say that? I'm just concerned.
OK, I exit now. Let Dr. G sort this one out.
POLITELY? PLEASE DO DEFINE THIS FOR ME:
I am not psychotic and I REBUKE that in Jesus' name. I have the mind of Christ, thank you very much.
I do not pry into people's private business, Penelope (giving phone number to Sugarre)
I do not gaslight people...trying to make ME think I am the one who is crazy, so you can come out shining in the end
I do not bait n switch, double-bind...telling people one thing and then flipping it the other way
I do not say one thing in public and another behind the scenes in private.
Am IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII PSYCHOTIC?
This behavior does NOT shine in my eyes and I would like to say HOW DARE you, but I think you are working through your issues so I will leave the rest up to your T to help you with.
Blessya
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Ah, criticism is so very hard to accept isn't it?
I kinda freak out when people give it to me too - unwanted. So I'll just stop now.
signing off reallyme, you can calm down now
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Sela, your intro to your 'what do you want' question triggered a smile over here, thanks; and thanks Jacmac for your wisdom and teaching via 'blue face' image in the reminder of healing following conflict. I tried to follow the discussion but got lost - I might not of said it before but I can only follow a few posts at a time, if I get through one thread, I'm lucky - yeah, ADD, I know.
Wish everyone may grow from whatever it is I, we are going thru,
Anansi
[shadowwork] Are there any shadows or underlying needs being expressed in this post? Yes, I want to be included somehow (need for connection, inclusion); I project admiration onto Jacmac for her sharp perception and ability and courage to express it. I appreciate her detective work (under: I hope maybe she'll see me and help me sometime); I told about ADD (under: I seek understanding and forgiveness for not being able to keep up); shadow for offering [shadowwork]: yeah, perahaps a seed - what if everyone included their shadows and unders in most of what they post? shadow of this question: yeah, I'm annoyed that many times, I don't really know what people's intentions are and I feel frustrated trying to mind read or second guess, there are only words here, no body language, no tones, no facial expressions, so yeah, I do wish most posts could include shadowwork confessions, shadow of this: yeah, I want to know my own shadows more! enough for now
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Ah, criticism is so very hard to accept isn't it?
Not when it's warranted.
I kinda freak out when people give it to me too - unwanted. So I'll just stop now.
I won't even go there about you "freaking out" and why
signing off reallyme, you can calm down now
as if your signing off will change my feelings about being falsely DIAGNOSED by you? you don't have control over my reactions nor my responses, though it appears that you think you can somehow manipulate me...maybe like your parents did to you? Well, I'm not "little Penelope" and you are not your mother. It won't work with me. next...
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Hi Anansi:
I like it when people smile. I'm glad you did. Thanks for saying so.
Pb:
Well, I guess it's a bit late to try to mediate now eh? Thanks for trusting me enough to consider that possibility Bean. I appreciate that so much. Hope you're ok. Stuff like this is never easy imo.
RM: I hope you're ok too.
Jac: I like the sounds of this shaddow concept. I better go find that thread and read it. It sounds interesting.
:D Sela
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RM/Pb
Do either of you want to resolve this, or do you want to carry on slating each other?
From my perspective, an outsiders perspective, I do think it's 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other and I feel like screaming ENOUGH at both of you. And why Jac's been roped in is beyond me.
So, I'm going to ask you BOTH the same questions. When you respond I would like you to think about what YOU can do about this, not what you would like the other person to do.
1. Would you like this to be resolved? Yes/No.
If Yes.... What are you prepared to do to resolve this?
If No..... What are you prepared to do so the arguments, digs etc etc stop?
2. How are you prepared to change by this doesn't happen again?
H&H xx
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it's all good jac, I'm not upset. Just being me and being honest. Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate them. Like I said, I find it impossible to hold a grudge. It's not something I can even claim to be proud of cause it's easy for me not to. So I'm gonna just let your words to me sink in and I hope you'll do the same. take care
have a good day,
bean
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H&H,
something got you riled up? need to expess why this conflict has you bent out of shape? I hope you'll do so.
I've seen all the elements of honesty and voice here, so I can't be too worried about it so I won't be. You shouldn't be either. I mean, your feelings are OK, but exploring why they're happening is more important than trying to jump in here and scream Enough. It wasn't enough for us, so we kept talking, and that's OK.
bean
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jac,
I will answer your question, you asked:
That to me is the question that can open doors - do you want to open them?
no jac, that's what I've been trying to tell you. When you attempt to open my doors for me - it hurts. I have a therapist, so I don't need your "Help." It's not why I'm here, anyway. This is the same thing I've been trying to tell reallyme - when you get in somebody's face and try to diagnose them here, or tell them what they're all about, by their behaviors, you are playing with fire, that is a recipe for disaster as we're not professionals. A therapist is a professional and that's who I trust my therapy with, no one here. This place isn't about that for me.
I don't think that kind of trust can ever be built nor should it be built here. So I've politely (and not politely) told you and reallyme now what you're doing that hurts and I've asked you to stop. I know I don't have any control over it - but, I still asked cause that's what I wanted to do. To make you think about why what you were doing hurt. Calling people an N, or saying they sound like an N hurts. That's all. That was the only point I was trying to make, although it got convulted with anger and confusion, and "here's what you DO!!!" jac. So those are the only things you're producing in my by your methods of "help." I'm trying to tell you that, that's all.
pb
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jac,
I went back and read my threads and I still remember what I was thinking/feeling when I wrote them. And a lot of what you've described just isn't true.
I'm sorry.
I will tell you what I was really thinking/feeling if you'd like to know. But communication can only happen when we put down our guns long enough to come to the peace table. Otherwise, you're shooting in the dark jac.
pb
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H&H,
something got you riled up? need to expess why this conflict has you bent out of shape? I hope you'll do so.
I've seen all the elements of honesty and voice here, so I can't be too worried about it so I won't be. You shouldn't be either. I mean, your feelings are OK, but exploring why they're happening is more important than trying to jump in here and scream Enough. It wasn't enough for us, so we kept talking, and that's OK.
bean
Hi Bean
I've been driving home and debating with myself if I should just delete my previous post.... to not get involved and leave it between yourself and RM, because that's what I do Bean. But then because it has all been posted so openly and I have read through some of it, it does involve us all and if I have the option to ask questions that may help, then why not!
I am not riled up or angry, but I am pissed off with the lack of resolution and the going round in circles between yourself and RM which was why I asked you those questions and I would be grateful if you could kindly think about them and respond.
I mean, your feelings are OK, but exploring why they're happening is more important than trying to jump in here and scream Enough.
When I read this sentence, I'd like to tell you what my initial thought was... "Wow, that's very big of you Bean!" That my feelings are ok. I think another very important thing to note is that I didn't jump in here and scream enough... I said from my perspective, as an outsider, I felt like screaming enough at the both of you. Do you see the difference between feeling something and doing something.
And yes, IMHO, Jac has hit the nail on the head, when I read your post it does turn the conflict around and make it sound like there's something wrong with me. Right from the first word, something, not someone who is responsible for their own actions.
Bean, from my perspective, this is about you and what part you play in the grand scheme of things.
Take care
H&H xx
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hi H&H -
I'm sorry cause when I posted that to you I was very frightened and trembling that I'd made you upset, somehow....and trying to find some words that might soothe you. So, I think you misinterpreted what I wrote.
I wasn't trying to make you mad. I was asking if you were OK (but not in a condescending way, in a - ick, I feel bad if reading my exchange with reallyme made you feel bad, if it triggered you). That's the way it was intended to sound cause that's what I meant. I was hoping you were OK, and if you needed to talk about feelings, I was inviting you to.
I guess that doesn't come across in text too well, though does it?
Curious why you added the comment that you agree with jac too. *Sigh* this isn't going to be another now we're taking sides, who's better jac or bean, I hope? Cause I don't think either jac or I are "right." There's no right or wrong about who's interpreting my actions correcly, see?
I've spoken from my heart, without sarcasm, and with a whole lot of fear, and I'm sorry if people cannot see or hear that. That is either 1) a limitation of the internet and/or 2) a limitation of their ability to give another (me) the benefit of the doubt in this case.
that I can be interpreted in Sooo many ways clearly says there's no objectivity, right? So the only way to truly know what I meant and thus what my words were Intended to do, is to ask, right? And I know, they were only intended to a) soothe myself and b) try to soothe reallyme.
That's why I don't feel bad, H&H. So, if you feel bad, I'm sorry, cause I don't and I think maybe that's why you might have felt bad cause wanting to scream enough - that feeling - typically happens for a reason and that's cause you don't want to witness pain. And I think that witnessing pain might have something to do with your past. Is this making sense?
pb
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H&H - now it sounds like you're jumping in to mediate? That'd be wonderful, I think it's a great idea. You and Sela can both mediate - if it gets to be too much, the other can take over.
1. Would you like this to be resolved? Yes/No.
If Yes.... What are you prepared to do to resolve this?
If No..... What are you prepared to do so the arguments, digs etc etc stop?
2. How are you prepared to change by this doesn't happen again?
Answer #1: yes
I am prepared to keep talking to reallyme until it gets resolved. But only if she's calm and not flipping out.
Answer #2: I am prepared to stop ignoring her if that's what it'll take to get the digs to stop. Or to keep ignoring her, or whatever needs to happen. I just need to communicate with reallyme, she needs to tell me what I'm doing that hurts her - and continue explaining it until I understand.
And I'd like for her to listen (objectively) to what I've said, and take it as just what I'm honestly thinking/feeling - it's not a game or manipulation, I really do think like this. My brain works this way, honestly.
pb
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(((((((((((((((((Bean/Pb))))))))))))))))))))))))
You don't need to apologise to me and I'm sorry to hear how much fear you felt from thinking I was angry. What Brigid said on the other post is spot on and she is so clever at putting it into words. It does seem that when I go to open a thread, there is an exchange between yourself and RM. Which left me thinking, Sheesh, when will this end. Thanks for inviting me to share my feelings but I don't have a huge amount of feelings about this, and I'm also not triggered by things in my past. I would have said if I was.
Whether there is a mediator or not, only yourself and RM can decide how to resolve this. Whether that is to not communicate or communicate. When I read some of it I think of the phrase, flogging a dead horse.
Curious why you added the comment that you agree with jac too. *Sigh* this isn't going to be another now we're taking sides, who's better jac or bean, I hope? Cause I don't think either jac or I are "right." There's no right or wrong about who's interpreting my actions correcly, see?
I hope you believe me when I say I'm not taking sides.... I like Jac and I like you Bean, I also like RM. I can honestly say there is no one on this board that I don't like, and I do think that everyone adds value here. Just that I agreed with the paragraph that Jac had posted. Is that ok?
You're right Bean, I don't like witnessing pain... does anyone? I don't like conflict either and I've had to work hard not to be a doormat. That is to do with my past, however I am happy with where I am and how I got here now.
Thank you for answering those questions. You've said what you would like RM to do but that is out of your control hon.
You have a good brain and I don't think you are playing a game or manipulative.
Take care
H&H xx
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H&H-
thanks you too.
And my brain (and intelligence) was just given to me by God, so I can't really take credit for it.
But my heart, I believe is all my own doing. :)
pb
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You summed it up neatly, Jac. I couldn't agree more
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I agree, you got me totally pegged jac.
I do do all these things (well most, anyway). But, I also do other things too.. It's OK. Thanks for sharing what I've done to you, that's all I wanted to know. Now I'll try hard not to do them to you.
Thank you for setting your boundary with me. Now we can both post here in peace.
pb
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he he, these are kind of funny if you read them enough times.
I guess I haven't met a human being that isn't like this.
(I am not talking to jac or reallyme, just talking aloud to whoever).
pb
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I see something I am going to change now. I am going to keep my posts directed with using examples of other people not from this board. I've said all I needed to and wanted to toward any person here at this point. I'm not on this board as a result of one of the board member's behaviors, but as the result of the N who was in my life at one point.
Blessya Bean. You have great perception and you will go far in life!
~Laura
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Thanks reallyme. ya know what? For the first time I think I understand what your "blessya" means!
It was never sinking in before.
Bless you RM
pb
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What amazes me is this ongoing hissy cat fight on this board. Actually, calling it a hissy cat fight is putting it mildly. Let's call a spade a spade.......it is bullsh*t between a couple of drama queens. Note, I didn't call y'all narcissists, though I suspect each of you will have your own chapter in Dr. G's next book. Each one of you is trying to be right, line up allies, and get in the last word. Having the last word doesn't make you right.
If you don't like someone, or what they say, then do not read their posts. Do not engage. It is as simple as that. "Never argue with idiots. They ' ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
I suggest you both take a break from this board.
Bah....
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AmazedGuest:
I'm not sure how to welcome disdain.
Sometimes it's a complicated effort here, but we'll work it out.
Anything good about the board you'd like to observe?
Is there anything about yourself you'd like to share here?
That would be welcome...you'll find caring listeners, warts and all.
Hopalong
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I suggest you both take a break from this board.
I have decided for myself to stay on this board. I do not appreciate your comments toward Penelope or myself. We have butt heads before, but in the end, I know we agree to disagree and we both grow through it. The only difference here, is that our discussion and disagreement is in text, rather than face to face, therefore, since it's a public board, you are privy to it. It does not make our way of communication wrong. It would be more wrong for us to not have communicated or heard each other at all. That is how this board runs things and so far, anyone on here who had a dispute, ended up resolving it or coming to some form of peace from what I can tell.
Penelope and I, I believe, have reached a place of mutal peace. Is this right, Penelope?
Smiles and blessings,
Laura
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Hey RM:
That's what it looks like to me (and I commented so on the "To Penelope" thread....and just now noticed your post! Cool! 8)
Again, I'm glad for both of you. :D :D
:D Sela
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I posted the very quotes from someone on this board...PROVED to you all, that I was told first to answer questions and then not to respond, and not one of you said "hey, that was a mixed message!" "hey! bait and switch goin on there" Ummmm, and you all were raised or acquainted with N's? So are we all TRULY voiceless when such a blatant thing happens on this message board? You see an N trait played out right before your eyes, and stand back to watch it happen and watch the person be utterly blasted. hmmmm, giving me some thoughts here for sure. Thanks so much for exhibiting another "bystander effect" all who saw this and did NOTHING.
~ReallyDISAPPOINTED
I'm not here everyday due to job and school constraints so I have no idea which thread you are referring to. Am I being defensive? Maybe. I just don't feel comfortable being accused of something when I have no idea what the original reference point was. Thank you.
Bones
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Hi Bones,
It's over, really. Two people had a big conflict and resolved it.
There was some spray.
You might be happier starting with fresh topics...?
Hope all is well with you,
Hops
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Hey Bones,
Always good to read you :) How are your studies going? Now would be a great time for some fresh input and new topics, if you've got any in your back pocket. I hope you're having a great day!
Hope
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Hey Bones,
Always good to read you :) How are your studies going? Now would be a great time for some fresh input and new topics, if you've got any in your back pocket. I hope you're having a great day!
Hope
Thanks, Hope!
Right now I'm in between assignments and taking a small break from writing three final papers for the one course that I'm taking. I'll be glad to get these three papers and the course finished so I can possibly come up with new topics and fresh input.
Bones
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Oh, I understand, Bones.
Three papers... that's alot of focus and energy being poured out. Doesn't leave much available resources for fresh stuff when I get in that concentrated mode, I know. Just want to get finished, defragment my mind, and then I can move on. Kinda running dry here myself, with seemingly alot of extra challenges these days. A busy household here and I'm missing my quiet, alone time. Anyhow, this too shall pass and for now, I wish you the best of success on those papers and I hope you'll find some refreshment and re-inspiration to get the job done!
Hope
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yes ReallyMe
your friend,
Penelope Bean :)
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What amazes me is this ongoing hissy cat fight on this board. Actually, calling it a hissy cat fight is putting it mildly. Let's call a spade a spade.......it is bullsh*t between a couple of drama queens. Note, I didn't call y'all narcissists, though I suspect each of you will have your own chapter in Dr. G's next book. Each one of you is trying to be right, line up allies, and get in the last word. Having the last word doesn't make you right.
If you don't like someone, or what they say, then do not read their posts. Do not engage. It is as simple as that. "Never argue with idiots. They ' ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
I suggest you both take a break from this board.
Bah....
And Amazed Guest, I apologize for calling you a moron. I should have engaged the brain before I said that. Now I see that you were just confused. That's what we tend to do when we don't understand something, or something makes us extremely uncomfortable, or we simply don't like it. We react in fear and we reject it. But now I see that if something makes me extremely uncomfortable, it's for a reason and that's because there's a lesson there for me. So even you have something to teach me Amazed Guest cause I realize I don't particularly like you, and that's OK for now.
pb
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Oh, I understand, Bones.
Three papers... that's alot of focus and energy being poured out. Doesn't leave much available resources for fresh stuff when I get in that concentrated mode, I know. Just want to get finished, defragment my mind, and then I can move on. Kinda running dry here myself, with seemingly alot of extra challenges these days. A busy household here and I'm missing my quiet, alone time. Anyhow, this too shall pass and for now, I wish you the best of success on those papers and I hope you'll find some refreshment and re-inspiration to get the job done!
Hope
Thanks, Hope.
I'm trying to hang in there, one day at a time.
Bones
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Jac,
I agree. Even before reading about the Shadow aspect we each carry within us, I had that same sense of it... just pure frustration.
And I wondered... how common is a response like this, following a large turmoil/upheaval? As the primary players complete their exchanges and all appears to return to normal, how many are left behind with a load of such frustration and nowhere to deposit that burden? I felt it to a certain extent and can see that it can be very difficult to process, especially when it catches you by surprise.
I think your Shadow thread explains alot about the source of that frustration and why it sometimes can hit us so hard.
Anyhow...
Amazed Guest, whoever you are, I hope you're feeling better now and that you'll be able to come to terms with this... I know it's not easy. Looking forward to meeting you under any name you choose, whenever/ if ever you want to talk.
With love,
Hope