Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Overcomer on August 24, 2006, 07:39:12 PM
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Hello Everyone...............I have been complaining for some time now. My nmom and I are going to go to counseling. We had a blow up yesterday and even though I am SURE that I am right, I admit that I have become VERY snotty. I point out things that my mom "forgets" and she accuses me of trying to convince her she has Alzheimers. I point out that she is arrogant and prideful and she is convinced that I am being disrespectful. She tells me I insult her. I tell the truth - with a hammer - now I feel guilty. I have decided to give it up to God, but then I turn around and start planning who we might sell the business to. I have contacted the man I think wants it more than anything. But I know if she finds out that I am talking to this man, she will feel betrayed - and I feel guilty. I feel like a "bad girl." Then I think, maybe he'll open a similar store and hire me and bookkeeper away............then I feel really guilty. Then I think if I did that it would serve her right - but she might disinherit me because I am a "bad girl." But she has betrayed me so many times - but I feel guilty. Am I insane?
I cannot wait to go to counseling. We are going to go apart from one another then together...............I cannot wait to be the rational one..........
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Hi Kelly,
I'm so glad you're going to counseling. Good for you.
Maybe being "right" isn't always being "rational" (even though I'm sure you are!).
Maybe there's some bigger things...and a counselor will help.
That would be the most wonderful thing possible, if you and your Mom could have some moments where you get beneath all this stuff, to where the hurt is, and then beyond that, to where some love is.
Guilt? I think guilt is okay if you agree you've been hurtful. Just don't make the guilt so much a part of you that it turns into terrible toxic shame. You have really beeen so frustrated and unrecognized...I can't think of much that would be more difficult than being in business with your mother but needing to be respected as a smart, competent adult at the same time.
I think it's wonderful you're going to do counseling. Imagine...you've learned so much here, and reading, and reflecting---and your mother maybe hasn't had these opportunities for insight. It might even be partly a generational thing.
So don't be surprised if she's way behind you in terms of what she's aware of...but let her be a human being, give her a chance if you can (without harming yourself).
Good luck, will be eager to read your posts...
Hops
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Hi Kelly,
I just wanted to say... I well remember that feeling of insanity. I also remember realizing that I had begun to act and react much like N, out of pure frustration at the impossibility of all his crazy-making behavior. Honestly, I just don't see how it's possible to think clearly and respond well as long as there is such an entanglement with someone who is extremely narcissistic. To be financially tied to that is to be in an impossible situation, I think. (((((((((Kelly))))))))) As long as you know that you can't change her, I believe that you'll be fine and hopefully this counseling will clear up alot of issues for you.
Toward the end of our marriage, I felt guilty for telling others about N ex-husband's abusive behavior, especially when it came to the point of having him put out of the house when that behavior escalated to physical threats. I felt that I had betrayed him and probably would never have followed through if he hadn't petitioned for divorce immediately thereafter. That's how deeply entrenched in feeling responsible for him I was, so I know how difficult it can be to break free.
In my situation, he was not supporting me financially, so I didn't have those ties to bind me... he barely worked. Fortunately for me (in the long run) over the course of our divorce, he stalked me to the point that I was willing to take on all liability for debt simply to be free of him. Maybe that was his plan all along, I don't know. I'm just glad I didn't stick around trying to get a better deal moneywise, because there was no healing until our contact was completely ended. Praying the best for you always, Kelly.
With love,
Hope
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Kelly,
Maybe the guilt feeling is just inevitable because you are a person with normal emotions and empathy. The counseling should really help you to sort out some of this and make it more manageable. It really sounds like you're making some progress here. Even though it doesn't feel so great! My best wishes to you.
((((((Kelly)))))))
Pennyplant
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Hey kelly,
You brought up something that I have been struggling with too. When I lived at my parent's, I adopted a lot of their attitudes as a teen. They felt that anyone who didn't know/like the things they did was stupid and uneducated. Even though they are not college educated, they believe they are the smartest people in the world and that the things they like are what all people should like...
At any rate, I had this asshole of a boyfriend in high school and college... he was VERY superior acting... and was, in fact, very well-connected and wealthy. I met a lot of "famous" people and went to a lot of cultural events, and so on. I also started acting like everything he knew was much better than what my parents knew. The fact is, my parents are very "nouveau riche" in their ideas... they don't get the idea of quality and real value. But I was very snotty about it at the time... really I was mimicking their actions. And when I married/set up house/had kids, I was continually "proving" I was better than them.
So I feel like I am the one who turned them off of me. Or at least I felt that way. Now I don't care. I have learned to live my life for me... not to be an example to someone else and not to prove anything. Still, anything I do now is met with skepticism by them; i.e., if I like it, it won't be something they would like.
Anyhow... I hope this helps you in some way see that while we can react badly, the seeds are planted there by the way you were treated. Does that make sense????
Hugs...
Beth
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Thank you for your responses...........I appreciate the objectivity because I do not think I am very objective right now. No. I am not rational. I believe I am mirroring my nmom's behavior right back at her. It's almost like I am giving her a taste of her own medicine. I'm making sure she feels just the way she has made me feel for all these years. I am trying to take back the 42 years of total control (that was 4 years ago when I BLEW UP!!!!) In a way, I am vindicating myself. I finally have had so many people come to me and tell me that if my mom made me feel the way she makes them feel, then they feel really sorry for me - being raised in such an invalidating home. So yes, I am not going about it correctly - I get that. But I cannot just allow her to walk around with her nose in the air and give her the respect she thinks she deserves - no, I don't respect her. And I cannot overlook her forgetfulness - Am I trying to convince her she has Alzheimer's? No. She IS getting it and she doesn't want to admit it - it is easier to be suspicious and accuse me of setting her up (Hey, isn't suspicion part of that disease?) And counseling? You guys, she will absolutely deny anything, she will try to turn it back on me and label me unstable............I guess I am acting like an N myself...............because I am sure I am right and no one can tell me that I am wrong (that's an N trait, isn't it?)
So when I go to counseling I am going to tell them all the awful things my mom has put me through. I will tell them about the frustration. I will expose her for what she is. Then she will accuse me of attacking her. And in a way, I will be because it is just so dang hard to stay composed............
But? I feel guilty for turning into a vindictive, angry, bitter, bitchy, frustrated woman whose goal in life is to take her down.......just take her down. To win. To finally have the final say. To finally have success. But success at that price is worth the guilt. Why don't I just walk away in love.........................................? Try to end our business relationship with mutual admiration. But if I went to work for the other guy, she would consider it a betrayal....................so I cannot win. Even if I quit and work anywhere, she will consider it abandonment...........................
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Hi Kelly,
Just something to keep in mind, in case you ever need it... I didn't bring N down, but I still won... because I'm free of him.
Love,
Hope
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Hi again, Kelly,
My main goal in life until the past few years was to be right and "show everyone" that I was right in the first place. Honestly. If someone did something to me, I would just sit back and wait with a smirk, knowing that they would "get theirs." And with supreme glee, I watched as each one of the people did have bad things happen to them.
Well, fortunately I became a drunk and found a 12 - step deal... I learned to "Live and Let Live" and to get over being so concerned with if other people "got theirs." I also learned that I cannot be a happy or productive person with all that anger boiling inside of me. Yes, there are still rotten people in my life at times (my FOO always...), but they no longer have a hold on me, because my focus is on ME and my family now.
Kelly, you are still directing all that bad energy outwards. I hope you will see the great person that is YOU now and start to respect her and trust her and take care of her. So what if your mother gets angry. Is it worth what you are doing to yourself?
Of course you can see this through to the end... you can watch her deteriorate and get some nasty pleasure out of it. What will that ultimately get you? It won't give you back the happy years that you missed out on. The only way you can find some peace now is to move forward. You can prove what you want to/about your mother, but WHAT WILL YOU GET OUT OF IT? How long will that satisfaction last????
Sorry I am being blunt... I am trying to see waht would be best for you... and thinking it through. What do you think of all this blabbering?
Love, Beth
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You are right, Beth. What do I get out of it besides a moment of vindication? So what if I take her down and then she sticks it to me by disinheriting me later on. The only thing I want from her is to be heard. It is a one-sided fight. SHE thinks I am disrespectful. I have been disrespected by her for years. She thinks it is my goal to discredit her. Don't have to - she's successful at that on her own. She thinks I have betrayed her, well, she's betrayed me time and again.
I talked to my dad and he understands. He's kind of caught in the middle. She just wants everyone to cowtow to her every wish....
I'm giving it up. I'm giving it up. I'm giving it up. It doesn't do me any good to fight............
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Kelly,
I just want to tell you that your feelings against your mother are very understandable and rational consequences of what you have been through. I'm glad you are seeing a therapist who can give you back your ability to think objectively rather than through vengeance.
Honestly, with an N, yes it wounds them DEEPLY when we "get em back," but, although revenge might have been sweet for that moment, it is very short-lasting, and they go on to the next arrow in your heart or the next replacement person for you
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If I continue to allow my anger to drive me than I really do look like the bad person. She has always had that on her side. When she is in a room alone with me, she clinches her teeth, throws accusations, and is very bitchy. But get her in a room with a therapist? She will act like the victim. And seriously? I know I am the real victim in the whole scenario. I have had to deal with her narcissism my whole life. I will really try to be strong and to speak in very neutral terms and tell the real story and see what the therapist says. The guilt? It was ingrained in me from a very young age. To do anything outside of what my nmom sees fit makes me feel guilty. So if I can get over the irrational guilt and try to do things motivated by my mental health, then I think I will be ok!!
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Kelly,
Another reason it's SO great that you're going to counseling is that when it's the two of you, the old patterns are so powerful that your mother CANNOT hear you (it has nothing to do with what you say...it's emotional tapes). Likewise it is possible that there are things she is trying to say that aren't totally monstrous that you cannot hear.
I am soooooooooooooo glad you are going to counseling. Please hang in with it. You deserve the help, and you need it.
I think it is fantastic that you and your mother have agreed to go.
Hops
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Well, just to clarify something. I know you all are happy for me (us) but my mom will not hear or admit that she has a problem. Her problem is that I don't like her...not that she is self-absorbed, or lacks empathy for me, etc. I cannot in a million years think that she will figure out that she is the problem. It would hurt her psyche to do that. So I predict a lot of tears, etc. However, maybe the counselor will say "You guys cannot work with each other!!" And if that is accomplished - and we act on that advice, then I will be OK!! Because really? I can handle her on a personal level.........she has ceased the control that way.............
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Kelly,
even your mother's tears, if she is an N, will be short lasting.
~Laura
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Kelly -
I relate to your discussion on several levels. I am in my forties. I got my mother, who is diagnosed as having N traits, to go to therapy this past year as a condition if she wanted to have a relationship with me or my little boy. My reactions to her could have ben described by your very posts with some of the details changed.
As I was reading this dialog, I immediately thought of what Jac and others have replied to me about validation. What I hear your screaming out for is validation that you are not crazy but that your mother's actions are outrageous and unbearable. Perhaps your cries for validation cross the line into the need to be right (which has some narcissistic aspects) but really I think you are hoping for and needing validation for the couselor. I hope you get it.
Late this spring, before I had e-mail and could join this crowd, I read something about Narcissists that nailed my Nfather. But I was shocked (and humiliated) to see that it also nailed some of my behavior. And in a nano second I had to ask myself if I had to wear the mantle of Narcissist myself, but just as quickly I realized that it was no surprise that I might exhibit some behavior that is narcissistic in nature - that is all that I experienced growing up. How could I know anything else?
I hope for you that you get the validation you seek and that it sets you free.
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Hey Gaining et al................well to get validation from my nmom is NEVER going to happen. Yesterday i took my middle child to nmom's church because her boyfriend goes there................I had told nmom I had no desire to EVER go to her church again. Anyway, we went out to eat after church and I said something about being angry with my husband for not finishing a project before going on to the next one. She recoiled as if she saw a horrible something - a horrible anything - it was total horror on her face. It has gotten worse and worse over the years. Back when I cared what she thought so I watched my mouth, I always noticed her squirming in the back of the room if I spoke during a staff meeting or whatever. It was almost like she was trying to control what I said with her body language. Now that I am so fed up and I just let her have it verbally, she recoils in horror - as if I am going to jump across the table and strangle her right in front of God and everybody!! So validation from her? No. Maybe validation from the counselor that we cannot work together and remain civil.........
And what about me becoming N? Well, I thought to be an N you had to have a super-ego or think higher of yourself than you should. Well, nmom has successfully made me feel absolutely like the biggest loser that walks the face of the earth. The worse mom. The fattest. The mouthiest. The ugliest.............(when I was three she told me I was ugly - on the inside and the outside!) So do I WANT and YEARN to be somebody?? Do I want to be successful? Do I want to be skinny? Do I want to live my life apart from my nmom? ABSOLUTELY!! Because just maybe, if I am any of those things, I can break away from my nmom.
I was talking to a man and he told me that it was too bad my nmom had made it easy on me all these years (good hours and good pay) because I am absolutely trapped where I am for lack of finding anything with those kinds of benefits!!!
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Now that I am so fed up and I just let her have it verbally, she recoils in horror - as if I am going to jump across the table and strangle her right in front of God and everybody!!
Kelly, all I have to say is GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD FOR YOU! That is what GETS through to N's how abhorrent and cruel their behavior is! You now have control back over your own life and she realizes she can no longer intimidate you into cow-towing.
As far as the guy who told you your mother made it easy on you...the "family business" theme seems all too common among N families. It's all about IMAGE and the message that "we don't want anyone to really KNOW us, so we will keep this front up by staying very successful so we do not need to get close enough to people.
I lived that facade with Jodi for a bit. Raised by ministers, they rarely had people come stay with them. People outside were just not "privvy" I was told, to what goes on in the household, because "we are a MINISTRY family!" What I found out went on in the household, was the son being seen as the prince and the daughter (from a former spouse) treated like less than a second-class citizen. While I was there, I also was cast in the "daughter" role, and therefore subjected to the same silent treatment, mixed messages, intimidation and "you bad girl, you DISAPPOINTED MOMMY" crap. I LIVED what Jodi's daughter was subjected to DAILY, but I only went through it for 5 weeks out of the 6 I was there with her. On the first week, I was wined and dined and TESTED and WARNED that anything that went on in that house, was NOT TO EVER LEAVE THERE OR THERE WOULD BE HELL TO PAY.
It IS too bad you were stuck in such a situation all your life. I am GLAD you have taken back control from your Nmother. Let her own her own problems and you can own yours. You have gotten comfortable with the familiar, and we ALL do that in some ways, but there IS a way out. You will find it in the right time and season.
~Laura
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That is the only thing that keeps me going. When I was at work today it was so "strained." We just tiptoe around each other. I think she is afraid of me. That is why she recoils when I say I was angry. The thought of me and angry to her is very intimidating. I have blown up in the past and I glare at her and tell her she is arrogant and prideful. I hope I never make anyone feel the way she makes me feel because I wouldn't want anyone to be as angry at me as I have been at her! If I were her I would be afraid, too. Not because I am a threat - because I am not. But because I wouldn't want someone to unload on me the way I have on her.
But I have heard several people here on the board tell me "good for you, Kelly." "You have finally drawn a line in the sand." Well, to me it isn't a line.................it's a great chasm like the Grand Canyon - something so wide and so deep that she must not try to go back there. But today at work (in front of my dad - where she is safe!!) she said something like "I wish your daughter would go to AWANAS - I would take her....................." And I wanted to say to her.................."Mom, if you let me go from work, and gave me enough money to be a stay-at-home mom, I would take her to church every single Sunday AND Wednesday because my psyche from not working with you would be so good and my house would be in order and I wouldn't be so stressed...............that I would have the time and energy to do those things that you "wish" I would do.................."
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Hi Again Kelly,
I am reading through your posts and there is one glaring error that I think you are making... you are looking for the wrong kind of validation. You know the song "Looking for love in all the wrong places?" That's what you are doing!!!
Your mom will NEVER EVER EVER provide any kind of validation of the type you are seeking. She will NEVER EVER pat you on the head and say, "Good job my beautiful daughter, how silly I have been."
YOU need to give yourself validation. For example, when I was at my parents' this summer, I could look at my mother and I could see that she is a mean, spiteful, ridiculous woman. I understood how inane her behavior is... because I received validation from others here and through studying this disease, that normal people don't try to hurt and belittle their "loved ones." I honestly am free of any desire for her to ever be proud of me for what I want her to be proud of me for. The things I love about myself are often what she despises in me. I find her cruel and lacking... she never was and never will be a mother.
So, my validation came in the form of I AM NOT CRAZY. She was mean to me, she did and does treat me cruelly, I am NOT the person that she made me think I was for so long. I am me... faults and all.
Kelly, why do you stay near her? With all of your knowledge and experience with your company, you should be looking to free yourself and fins a place where you can shine.
I hope I haven't been too blunt. I'm trying to give you a fresh pair of glasses :)
Love and hugs,
Beth
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Hi Kelly,
Your Mom does verbal put-downs and doesn't let you shine.
She's competitive with you, and doesn't build you up...
I believe you completely. I'm sorry she's that insecure that she needs to compete with her duaghter. I know how maddening it is.
I think your fixation on winning with her, over her, against her, is making you lose.
It is not idea to be stuck in business with her right, but I hope that for you, this forced contact might be an opportunity to finish the unfinished business on many levels. I would have given a lot to have had the help of a counselor. Please open up to whatever may happen there. If you have only the agenda that you be pronouced Right and she be pronounced All Wrong, you'll set yourself up for more anger, and not taking the learning that you CAN take from it to free yourself of your fear of her and obsession with her.
That may also mean you will be taking your focus of HER behavior and putting it within YOURSELF. And the counselor will help you. It's not magic but it sure is powerful.
THIS is your chance, to get some detached and wise and well trained help. Please take everything that comes, not just what you demand of it. You'll wind up with more insight and strength that way.
Hops
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Please Kelly, do yourself a huge favor and LISTEN TO BETH!!! Get AWAY FROM THE LADY and DO NOT GO BACK.
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Thanks for the validation, Laura :) I take it where I can get :D
Ah... life is a funky journey, eh?????
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Three things happened in the last two days. 1. Yesterday we had an evaluation with bookkeeper. Nmom was cordial - almost flattering................then at the end bookkeeper asked what my nmom wanted her to do regarding correcting people or who was accountable to her, etc. My nmom basically said it is none of your concern.................all those inquiries now go to aunt....
2. So today I am writing up a memo and accidentally opened a memo I sent a year and a half ago which said something like "bookkeeper is now the assistant manager and is considered the "go-to" person and has all the rights to reprimand, correct, etc." So I made a copy of this memo and placed one in nmom's box and aunts box...............told them I had run acrossed it and that this is what was communicated to employees....................so all the "I don't remember making bookkeeper a "manager" were put to rest....................should have seen aunt squirm after she had read it. Nmom was gone so I wasn't able to see her reaction but it gave me sooooooo much pleasure to be right and have it in writing!!
3. I sent the therapist a rather long email (after I called the office and asked if it was alright if I wrote up a bio so when I got in he would know what was going on - they said yes....................) It detailed all the things I have been going on and on about here. My appointment is AFTER my nmom's but he will have read my perspective before he talks to her and she makes me look like an idiot!! Excited about that!!!
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Coming across this thread is very fortutious for me because feeling guilt and having to prove myself has been with me for a very long time. When I was in therapy, some years ago, I expressed some thoughts about this and my therapist said it was because my Mom was narcissistic and I think it made an impression on me. Not much at the time because Iwas so sure that I was to blame for the way our relationship was like.
And that's because I was critically ill, almost died, as an infant, from a thyroid condition. She had convinced me that that we needed to be very close because my life and condition was so delicate. In the years since I had convinced myself that she reacted this way because she was really traumatized herself from the experience and I felt guilty about that too. However, this doesn't always wash with me since I have read more about Narcissism and how pervasive and insidious it really is. We get along pretty well now becasue she has mellowed with age and I have decided,for my own peace of mind, to try and forgive her. However from time time I find myself looking up the N features because I am feeling really vulnerable and wrong and guilty for the slightest things again. I have a couple of texts, the Nina Brown one and Trapped in the Mirror, I have also checked out The Heresy of Self Love by Steven Zweig which is very interesting because it talks about Narc in the culture and Arts.
Usually I try to stay in my adult but people have told me that i am like a perpetual child which has felt insulting and patronizing to me even tho I know exactly what they mean. By the way.does anybody besides me try to subscribe to the "hate the sin, love the sinner" philosophy? I have tried,NOT easy, but I am curious about what people think of that, if it works, thanx for letting me vent... If I continue to allow my anger to drive me than I really do look like the bad person. She has always had that on her side. When she is in a room alone with me, she clinches her teeth, throws accusations, and is very bitchy. But get her in a room with a therapist? She will act like the victim. And seriously? I know I am the real victim in the whole scenario. I have had to deal with her narcissism my whole life. I will really try to be strong and to speak in very neutral terms and tell the real story and see what the therapist says. The guilt? It was ingrained in me from a very young age. To do anything outside of what my nmom sees fit makes me feel guilty. So if I can get over the irrational guilt and try to do things motivated by my mental health, then I think I will be ok!!
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Welcome, Radalte. Glad you posted.
I believe in hate the sin/love the sinner.
I think sometimes it's easy to get hooked by the love-word into believing that means abandon yourself, though. It doesn't.
We were given our own lives. It's not evil to want to be happy. You can be kind to yourself while loving others. You are entitled to the space you take up, the oxygen you breathe. You have a right to be here, to find out how to be happy.
Love with detachment (not coldness, just a calm protective shield around your inner self).
I think for you the biggest enemy is toxic, persistent guilt.
I hope you can find help here to pull it away from your heart.
As a transient feeling to guide you away from harm, guilt makes sense. to me As a constant state...it's poison. It's just a compass bearing. It's not true north.
Welcome again, and thanks for sharing what's happening for you.
Hopalong
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Hi TT,
How come you call this poster Ted?
Just curious....
Hops
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Welcome, Radalte
You might benefit from reading Jac's recent thread re: true self/false selves. There's a big difference between being childlike and behaving in a childish manner, too! Nothing wrong with allowing your inner child to play a part in your entire personality, I don't think... just need to learn how to integrate all those various parts.
About "hate the sin, love the sinner"... my interpretation of that does not include tolerance of evil.
Please join in here when you can! Looking forward to reading more from you.
With love,
Hope
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(((((((((((((TT))))))))))))))))))
Thank you.
A LOT
love,
Hops
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yES, Hate the sin and love the sinner in it's true form is fine - we all sin. However, to let people keep getting away with their "sins" is just a form of enabling. There is a certain time in life when the sin takes on a life of it's own and it's time to run away from the sinner.
ExaMPLE: My ex..................my mom always said "hate the sin, but not the sinner.........." But this jerk cheated on me over 25 times.......................left me for another woman...............my mom wouldn't let me divorce him.........................
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Oh Kelly.
I think this is what you're so angry at your mother about.
Much more than anything to do with the business.
You must have felt so betrayed by the one who is supposed to put you first.
I'm so sorry. Women can do such terrible things to their daughters for the sake of propriety.
She was very wrong. (And in some part of her mind, she has rationalized it as right.)
I wonder what messages she got from her parents about the importance of a child's happiness?
Hops
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Hops: Yes, my anger has been brewing for years and years and years.................the day-in-and-day-out drudgery that I have to endure just makes it worse. No, she wouldn't "let" me divorce husband #1....(finally someone else gave me permission!!).....then I started dating a man who proved to be an alcoholic = bad news............................so I tried to get away from him but she was in the midst of "fixing" him like she did to husband #1....................that is when I went off the deep end...............pretty much fell into a deep depression AFTER my rage!!! Told her she needed to choose between him and me = well, guess whose needs she chose to take care of??? She was worried about hurting him. Well, I was so betrayed and wounded that there isn't anything the woman could do short of handing me a million dollars that would allow me to forgive, forget, and deal with her.....problem is, she just keeps on wounding me...................time and time again................and she just doesn't see it. She calls me unstable. She calls my righteous indignation spiraling out of control.
I just cannot stand the woman................I guess it shows!
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((((((Kelly)))))))
You know, my daughter raged at me quite viciously a few months back and it hurt so much I thought I would never recover and there would never ever be a shred of love from her again.
She really was wrong.
I raged at MY mother (right down the matriarchal line, our struggles have gone) less than a year ago. She was 95. I felt so awful at some of the things I said and the way I said them...even though I felt justified. Or "right".
Tonight I was walking with a friend and found myself saying to her, you know, if this much anger was necessary for my D to differentiate herself, to break free from being too enmeshed and close to me...even though I thought it was cruel, if it had to happen...I'd rather she got it out of her system at age 25, instead of stuffing it until she was 55 years old the way I did.
Maybe, in some way, at some point, with the counselor's help, that anger can be released without further harm...and you'll be released from it. It's poisoning you, but I know exploding with it would damage you too.
I am so so glad you and she are going to the counselor. Not because it's magic, but because it's sane.
I think you're going to find your way, Kelly. There is more hope for peace of heart than you can see now.
Hops
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Hops: Why did your daughter rage at you? Were you too enmeshed? Are you a controlling, narcissistic woman? The only reason I say this is because I wouldn't have raged at my nmom if she hadn't been so intrusive in my life that it got completely unbearable!!
I just pulled a book off my shelf called "Deadly Emotions" and it is a book about how anger and resentment and unforgiveness can cause disease. I guess that is my one fear in life is that eventually my body will come down with some horrible disease because I live daily with all of this anger and resentment. Problem is, by being with my nmom every day I cannot get away from her. Every single thing she does to me are like straws that break the camel's back.................alone the infractions are not that bad, but put them on top of a lifetime of disapproval and control, they just freak me out and make me go off the deep end!!!
I live my life with this feeling of anticipation - I anticipate that something will happen - SOON!~! I don't know what and maybe that is what helps me live daily - knowing that someday, somehow this life I live will break free from my nmom!! My hope and dream!
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Kelly:
Yes. We were enmeshed and I was controlling (never cruel, but I didn't see how my "help" was controlling.) I was overprotective. We were so close, most of the time so happily, I didn't see that we were TOO close.
And most of all, she resented my moving in with NMom, because NMom always comes first and it put such a crimp in my daughter's access to me. We danced around my mother's braying to be the center of attention. I think in some ways her blowing up had a lot to do with my mother, too. But she is afraid to confront her grandmother. (A T once told me a child tends to express anger at the parent she feels safest with. She never confronted her father, and now he's dead, so I think all her anger came out at me.)
I am not a narcissist. I do have narcissistic behaviors at times (N-spots). I catch myself in them. Loathe it. But I have learned and trust my T...they are not who I am. They're more like old creepy symptoms that I learned from contagion. But at a core level, I have empathy and compassion.
For you too. A lot. (I hope you didn't think me saying my daughter was wrong to rage at me was a dig at you because of your anger. Nooooo. I believe that chronic anger is hurting you, but emotions just "are". They do not have to be justified, they are not "right" or "wrong.") I meant, about my daughter, that what she chose to say to me was wrong. It just hurt me too much. I didn't deserve it. (Who does?) You can read the history on the Losing My Daughter's Love thread. (Fortunately, I have found out I didn't.)
I know I raged at my NMom too because it was a last-straw and more than I could bear. It all came out.
Hops
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Kelly,
You are only hurting yourself with your anger... that's what worries me about you. Do you think your mom cares if you are angry with her? Honestly, I think my mom enjoys it when she can make me flash in anger. She tried it all summer and it worked only once, but she was so gleeful about ticking me off that time.
Kelly, I know you probably don't have my problem of drinking and the compulsive behaviors that go with it, but the 12 steps are a kind way to look at life which give you a break and tools to deal with life all at the same time. You might try reading "A Woman's Way Through The 12 Steps." It helps you examine everything that is causing you anger in your life and really hold it and sift it through your fingers and then get rid of it.
I just hate to see you hurting yourself all the time. And I really think that your anger doesn't do any more than eat you alive... of course it can make you sick, but even if it doesn't, you can't have peace until you banish it. And the anger WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING.
Love to you Kelly,
Beth
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HERE'S THE DEAL!! CAN YOU GUYS TELL I AM ANGRY!!!! :x YES, I AM ANGRY AND YES, IT IS GOING TO MAKE ME CRAZY!!
I'VE GOT TO STOP THIS RESENTMENT AND ANGER AND HATE!!!
I know what the counselor is going to say, "You can't change your mother and you have to decide what you are going to do to change the way you respond to your mother......blabade blah blah blah.........."
I just want to run away as fast as I can from this woman. And while I am on a rant, I am thinking about drop kicking my husband as well. We got invited to my daughter's boyfriend's parent's house yesterday and he didn't want to come. Why? Because he doesn't know them and it would be too nerve wracking for him so he made some lame excuse about having some yard work to do. When I got remarried I thought I might get a relationship - but I am still a single parent....................
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((((((((((Kelly)))))))))))
When I was raging at my 95 y/o Nmother not too long ago, one outburst that had her shaking in her socks and me absolutely horrified at myself...allllllllll those feelings of hurt abandonment betrayal total frustration at her blind N-ness not protecting me from my brother, urging me to marry too soon, other classic things (both for her generation and from her unique personal damage)...
Something happened. And that was I went upstairs to my bathroom and suddenly began to sob with a kind of sob that came out of the base of my spine and racked my body. It was overwhelming. Far beyond a simple "cry."
Hon, I think you need to cry. Underneath anger, which is the surface layer, is always hurt or fear. You may have both.
And I am so, so sorry that your mother doesn't know how to take you in her arms and be so sorry, and truly comfort you....
Please accept these words as my effort to truly wrap my arms around you and let you cry until the hate is gone. You'll feel bruised and drained afterward, but better.
I promise you.
love,
Hops
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Thanks Hops!! That was so nice!! I have cried and I know what you mean, this coming from the base of your innards...........almost a whailing (sp?) cry.........It is just so useless. I have dealt with this for so many years...............last week when I was talking with her and we stayed mighty cordial, I said to her, "give me a brick wall and let me hit my head on it." I mean, it has almost become comical. She says things that are so - I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO DESCRIBE THEM WITH WORDS........" Here's one. She said, "I never had a problem with the bookkeeper until you said, "I think you have a problem with the bookkeeper."" "You spoke it into existence - now I have a problem with the bookkeeper."
DOES ANYONE ELSE THINK THAT IS AN ABSURD STATEMENT??? She didn't have a problem with her until I said I think she has a problem with her and NOW she has a problem with her? That's always what happens. Somehow I am the cause of the problems. It's crazy making. So someone once told me to imagine her all dressed up like Minnie Mouse. Big Ears. A big black nose. And when she talks, imagine her with that squeaky voice - just like Minnie Mouses..............."I didn't have a problem with her until you said I think you have a problem with her.............." "Oh, Mickey, that Kelly!!"
Cry? No, I think I need to laugh. Maniacal laughter!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
Well, the good news is one of my contacts called me today and is interested in my business...............one more person signed up, one less month I have to deal with all this CRAP!
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Oh, my, Kelly.... LOL ... I am definitely gonna try that Minnie Mouse routine.... LOL
((((((((((Kelly)))))))))))
Maniacal laughter sounds a whole lot better than the alternative!
Love,
Hope
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OK, Kelly, I was thinking about you and your situation and what a puzzle it is... and I realized something. I am going to be forward here...
I think you are angry at yourself. I think that is why you are unable to shake the anger. I think maybe you are angry that you have let yourself be walked over, stayed in a bad situation, sought out the wrong relationships, and so on.You are lashing out because it hurts too much to take it out on yourself.
Is this possible? Is this hogwash?
Something to think about. It kind of came out of nowhere yesterday and I was thinking I needed to tell you.
Love, Beth
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Hope, Beth and Hops: You all three have been very supportive. For that I thank you. And yes, maybe it is me I am angry with. I have made poor relationship choices over and over and over again. I wonder why I am in another relationship with a man who has addictions. He told me when we met (online) that he didn't drink. And on our first few dates, he didn't. Then suddenly he became a raging alcoholic. I called his exwife and asked her if he had a problem with alcohol, she said yes. So again, here I go. Another man who (if we give her an inch..........) my nmom will try to "fix." Maybe what I do is expose him. Finally "tell on him" and she jumps in and tries to save him!!! Same story third chapter...................I cannot let that happen!! But at the same time, do I stay with him? Every weekend (starting Thursday) he drinks. Thursday, Friday and all day Saturday - every week......
But anyway.............so there is this dynamic with nmom and me and it keeps repeating itself. And yes, I am so mad at myself for not having enough self worth to choose my men more carefully. To have gone to college at a young age and became a professional so I could have made enough money to live on without the help from my nmom. Or if I would have met and married one of those doctors whose building I lived in (me and my friend lived right across the street from a D.O. University........)
I am tired. Tired of making poor choices. Tired of living with those poor choices. And I knew WAY before we bought this business that I did not like working with my mom. She drove me crazy in high school when I did a little secretarial work for her - that was 28 years ago!! Why didn't I listen to my internal ear?? I even tried to do the in-home party plan business that she was so successful at. But that was HER thing not mine. So why did I try to do it? To set myself up for failure?
And now, I am finally better at something than she is - but she owns more stock in the company so I have to watch her make poor business decisions on a daily basis. Yesterday she asked me to show her how to attach something to an email. Where has she been all these years?? On the phone self promoting - but I just wonder why in the world she would self promote to do something she doesn't have a clue about. Why would you put yourself into a position that you could be made to look the fool??? I don't get it.
Thanks for all the warm and insightful responses. I am going to get myself out of this - I AM. It is only a matter of time....
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((((((((Kelly)))))))))
Sounds like you've made some very impulsive decisions. I have, too, and I think mostly they've been driven by doubt and fear.
All of those tormenting questions of why and when and how seem to get magically answered by jumping in with both feet ... but the quick-fix leads to dozens of other problems. Then the regrets... that's a whole other ballgame.
Maybe the thing to do right now is to work on that impulsivity by focusing attention a bit farther down the road. If we can simmer down long enough to set a longer range plan (even just one year ahead) and work toward a goal (even a very small one) in small steps.... I know, it seems like a very large "if" to me, too, but I think it's worth a shot. Kinda like getting down to brass tacks with a vengeance, allowing some of these present annoyances to simply flutter by overhead. Sounds good to me!!
*Note: key to this for you, I think, is leaving mom out of the plan in your mind. Include no trace of her potential antics in the picture.
Love,
Hope
P.S. How long have you been married, Kelly?
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You are right. I have been married four years. If and when I decide that I have had it with husband (maybe, maybe not...........) I shouldn't let nmom in on any of it. If I do not want to walk right into another situation. So my ducks have to be in a row before I do ANYTHING. I cannot allow my mom to be a part of any decision........
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Hi all:
Something, I think it was Beth wrote, really struck me:
normal people don't try to hurt and belittle their "loved ones."
That says so much, I think. Maybe it can be used as a kind of indicator or scale or something. If one is feeling the desire/urge to hurt or belittle others, maybe that could warn one that something is abnormal (inside oneself) and that one needs some inner attention?? And if one is feeling hurt and belitted after an encounter with another, maybe that other isn't behaving quite like a "normal" person would?
I wonder if your anger, Kelly, is also a response to your frustration. It just sounds like it must be so frustrating for you.....to be in such close contact with your mother, whom you really don't like right now, and having to tolerate her "power" in the situation, her crazy making behaviour, along with contending with an alcoholic husband and all the feelings that arise when coming to grips with that reality.
I also wonder if Alanon might be a place for you to seek support (for learning ways to live without reacting to your husband's frustrating behaviour until you can take further steps/should you decide you want to......sort of a temporary thing to help you along this difficult path)??? In addition to the counselling thingy with your mom? Kind of taking action to promote change re both areas of difficulty might be something helpful?
I also wonder if your anger might actually be a driving force for you right now and not such a horrible thing. It's better than feeling hurt and helpless, maybe, because it gets you thinking of a way out......of ways to find solutions.....etc??? You've done a fantastic job of expressing yourself here and reaching out for support!! Keep doing that!! It's gotta help.
(((((((((kelly))))))))))
Sela
On edit re guilt:
Is it possible that you feel a bit guilty when you react badly to the crazy making behaivour of your mother/husband? If that is happening then that guilt is probably a good/very appropriate feeling (which ya....feelings are neither good nor bad, appropriate nor not, except....yep.....sometimes feelings are waaaaaaay off kilter or too extreme for our liking or just don't seem to be the crux of what's really bugging us and maybe even part of the problem....so it's ok to sometimes think of some feelings as being either appropriate or not, imo). Anyway, what I'm getting at is if the guilt you are feelings is actually because of stuff you've said/done that is really not your best ....then maybe it's a good thingy that will help you look for better ways to speak/behave/react differently/not react in future??
I've always believed guilt has value because it's supposed to teach us the boundaries of acceptable behaviour. When it becomes a problem, though, might be just before it becomes overwelming or disabling. Once it gets to that point.....it's doing more harm than good eh?
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Sela: Some very good points you make. If I can channel my anger into something positive, then I agree, it can be a catalyst for change. I must never go to my mom for a way out with husband. It's funny you mentioned that Al-anon thing - when I called his ex (which was really weird, but I didn't know who else to go to besides someone who had walked in my shoes..........trying to protect his disease from his parents/friends...) she suggested I go to al-anon. The thing with both my husband AND my mom is that I want to expose them. I have always heard about the Dysfunctional Family Rules and one of the most important rules is to NOT tell. So it is my goal to "tell." I do not want to keep the family secrets. We were talking to my 91 year old grandmother who was asked to write up a biography. We were discussing it and both my mom and aunt said she shouldn't mention she had divorced my grandfather.....................I said, "Why don't you say something like grandfather was a jerk so you divorced him?????????????" Of course, this would break that rule of not telling. Boy, I really was raised in a totally dysfunctional family. They wouldn't hear of "airing their dirty laundry" for all the world to see......................it is pretty funny when I step back and watch the dynamics between them all.......
Maybe my anger IS helping me to move forward....................I was talking to one of the gals at work today. She has over 17 years experience in my industry. She said something very telling to me...................she said, "You know what you are doing. I wouldn't have said that a few years ago but you have come along way and you really know what you are doing...your mother, on the other hand.............." Enough said..................I know it is true and I think that is why I can finally sit back and watch and just shake my head!!
And I wonder how my husband would appreciate me going to al-anon??? Especially if ANYBODY found out!! Last weekend he got drunk and was ranting and raving so I pulled out my phone and started videotaping........you should have seen how nice he became. I told him I was using it for blackmail!!!
Oh, life is weird. It is fun to know I am starting to figure it out. Hopefully I am not one of the people who intentionally hurts others. Although I have to admit that a lot of times I want to discredit by mother...........something about feeling vindicated after all these years.l
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Hi Kelly...
You really are articulating more and more here, mixed in with the repeitive little bursts of rage. There's so much more rational thought, more assessment mixing in. That's GREAT.
I agree with Sela wholeheartedly...I think a seasoned Al-anon group would know exactly how to hear your anger without freaking out over it, and help you get beneath it to something more affirming of your life and your creating a hopeful path for yourself. Nobody ever gets down a path other than one step at a time. Nobody. So maybe the next step is to do the counseling AND do Al-anon just for yourself. It's nobody's business (NOT his, NOT hers) if you take that space for your own healing. That's the Anon part, right?
Meanwhile, had a little vision:
Kelly, thinking of the past: BANGING ON OWN HEAD WITH SKILLET. Dammit I wish I had learned self-love and made BANG BANG happier choices BANG that would bring me BANG more happiness BANG BANG at this point in my BANG life when everybody else in the BANG universe is more mature BANG than I am and BANG BANG and has more money too BANG and I really wish BANG I loved myself so BANG BANG BANG I wouldn't feel so much BANG pain.
(I was just wondering if you could have a put-skillet-on-stove and make sauteed ginger carrots ritual?) :)
hugs,
Hops
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Hops, Were you making fun of me with the Banging-On-The-Head-Thing???? :lol: Actually, I have more or less quit banging myself on the head. It just gives me a headache and hasn't changed anything.
Kelly, I definitely vote for Alanon. The rooms are great and filled with people who love you, warts and all. And you learn a lot of great coping skills. And, as hops said, it's for YOU , not about your husband. I wouldn't bother mentioning it to him. They have meetings all day and all night, so it should be something you could fit into your schedule if you wanted.
I also agree with hops that you are growing so much Kelly!!!!!! And I love hearing the determination in your voice (roaring like a lion, girl!!!).
Love, Beth
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Well a couple of things have become clear to me here. 1. Al-anon sounds like a really good idea for me. 2. I apologize for my ranting and raving......and I thank you all for tolerating my immaturity..................3. Banging my head with a pan is a good alternative to brick wall............especially if I hit myself...............I could lighten the blows..................a full run into brick wall banging is oh so hard on the head!!! :shock:
Thanks again for letting me go on and on and on about my nmom.............I think these angry outbursts have allowed me to get some of it out in a healthy way rather than let my nmom have it.
I realize that many people have stopped piping in here and it really is about three or four of you.............I super appreciate you all. I have gotten a lot of perspective and it has helped.
I watched TD Jakes (not my favorite but I get tickled by his antics - and today I heard a very good word from him) and he said, these setbacks are getting you ready for something much bigger. Maybe that is why I have this feeling of anticipation. This feeling that something is about to give..............not sure what but it is a good feeling.
I have followed my weight watchers program all week and that feels like a victory to me. I weigh in tonight and I know I didn't lose a lot but I wrote down every single thing everyday. It was wonderful!! I use this new online etool program and it is easier than writing it in a journal.........so that's good.
Thanks!! Feeling pretty good. (Well, part of that might be because I am in the middle of my cycle so no hint of PMS.....or hormones raging!!)
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Hey Kelly,
I didn't mean to stick in BANG "mature" as a cue that you should call yourself immature!
(If you did, anyway, call me that too. But...NO. We're working out stuff, that's the opposite of immature!) I just had thought you were bashing yourself a lot...for not being a neurosurgeon.
(If it helps, I am downwardly mobile, professionally...but during these times of very little income, I have thought a lot about what matters to me. And even though on my own I will have a much less middle-class life one of these days...I really have come to feel NOT defined by professional status...or any other kind.)
Big hugs, glad you're having a happier day, congrats on your WW sticktoitiveness and kudos on opening your mind to Al-anon!
And please vent here as much as you need to about your Mom. Lots of us here have cycles where we need to rant for weeks about something until we've working the feelings through.
I'm not tired of you, and I'm not "tolerating" you. I'm glad you're here!
Hops
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Thanks, I know I was irrational but the "mature" mention did set me back. But that's ok because if I AM acting immature I need to be aware of it.......I'm used to irrational..............
Well, I went to WW tonight and actually gained .8 pound...............and I was doing so good at logging all my stuff on the computer. The gal said to me, "Were you drinking all your water and eating the healthy choices (you know, fruits and veggies...)?" Well, she got me there. Even though I counted every point, a lot of the points were cake and ice cream and bread and pasta...not a lot of veggies...........and I have been thirsty all week but haven't really drank a lot of water.........SO that's my goal for this week. Count every point but make the points healthy!!.. I should know better, I am insulin resistant and that is a precurser to diabetes and I have no reason to think that ingesting sugar is going to do anything but screw me!!! :?
Also had an appointment with an old friend to present my business to. Kind of threw me, though. She used the term "wiccan" and that scared me a little because I am a Christian and I consider wiccan kind of a witch thing which leans demonic IMO.....but she loved the botanically based products - she's into Mother Earth and all so...................maybe she'll do good in my business. We'll see......
Other than that...........well, I read that post about N mothers..............boy does that have my mom's picture on it!
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I'm looking to you for inspiration too Kelly. I've gained almost 20 lbs in the last two years and I am addicted to sugar. Thanks for mentioning it. I have never counted calories and it's time I learned.
Really thanks for sharing that struggle.
Hops
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Hops: Being almost 47 makes it even harder. When I was 27 and went on WW I lost 35 pounds quite easily. I could cheat and still lose a pound or two. Now? I can be perfect and stay the same...................sugar is a huge thing for me. I cannot metabolize it correctly. It just swims around my body and lands on my stomach. My whole life I carried all my weight on my legs.............now I have a gut!! Hate being middle aged! :x
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Hello Everyone: Well, just got back from a $100, 45 minute counseling session. Didn't think I would cry and the first thing I did was cry. I had sent the counselor an email with some of my rants and raves (complaints....) and my mom went to see him yesterday. So when I came in he had already talked with her and read my email. The first thing he said was "Why don't you set specific boundaries at work - who is in charge of what. Who gets to decide what for what department, etc." Well, I told him that it didn't matter because she would pull the "I own the store and I can do what I want" routine.
Then basically, BOTTOM LINE, he said. "Kelly, you are going to have to go back to that little girl who did not get what she needed from her (N-he didn't say it, but I am.......) mom and champion that little girl. Grieve the loss of not having a good mother. Take care of yourself. Nurture yourself........" Etc. Etc. He told me that I am living my life in the grid that I frame my whole life in. The "your ugly on the inside AND outside" grid. The "fat fat" grid. The "not worth my time so I'll leave you home alone" grid. The "your not worth it to me to stick up for you" grid. The "rebellious" grid. The "snap-snap, don't bother me when I'm on the phone" grid. The "your not important enough to me to go to your party at school" grid.
Well, I know all that. I've read all the books, etc. He asked me why I am trying to control my mom? (she probably said that to him yesterday is all I can figure............) And I told him I am not trying to control her, I just cannot stand to watch her posturing herself and to watch her love hearing herself speak........I told him I am sick of her making poor business decisions.
So all I got out of him was, it will be difficult to process all this hurt and still work with your mom, but it is not impossible.
So there you go. Go champion little Kelly. Somehow I will feel like a Narcissist if I start nurturing myself because I have had the feeling all my life that I am not worth the time or effort. I'm not to look skinny and cute - that is reserved for nmom!!!
Oh, guys, I just hate her so much. She is just such a b**ch.............I just don't know if I can be at work and watch her devalue the whole staff and allow her to emotionally abuse them. I watch people respond to her with this "deer in the headlights" look and I just wonder why we all put up with her???
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Aw, Kelly, I sure wish it had been less disappointing of a counselling session.
If only he had given you something new to work with.
I'm sorry it didn't go so well.
((((((((((Kelly)))))))))))))))
Love, Pennyplant
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Penny: Well, it wasn't that it was disappointing, just that I know all that. One thing I have never been able to do is champion myself. I am always worried about my kids and taken care of them instead of myself or it is so ingrained in my psyche that it is almost impossible to erase all the negative input which has attached itself to me. I can look back and see all the bad choices I have made based on the lies that have been ingrained deep within me. I never felt worthy of some really nice guy. I always choose men with problems. I don't feel worthy to be skinny. Everytime I do well all day long on a diet, I end up binging right before bed. Almost, like, OK, I'm a big loser so I better eat a lot right now to prove what a loser I am!!
I just cannot see me being able to work with my mom. It's like asking someone that was violently raped to work day in and day out with their rapist~
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So, then maybe if you got away from your mother, you still might not think Kelly was worthy and other things would keep going wrong?
That's kind of the thing I have to work on, too. I still need to believe that PP is worth as much as everybody else. It's going to take a long time. Meanwhile, exposure to Ns who know how to exploit that part of us--well, that just keeps your self-worth at zero. Yeah, it would be a very good thing to get away from Nmom. It would give you a leg up on the problem. A fighting chance!!!
I find it to be a very complicated thing, to be working on setting myself free of the Ns and, at the same time, also trying to set myself free from my ingrained ways of de-valuing myself.
Do you think you will go to this counselor again?
PP
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Hi Kelly,
I don't think the counseling session was a failure at all. Yes, you were told something you already know - that is not really the issue is it? The issue is, what and how to you do to change the situation. You also received validation for what you think about your mother. The validation for your knowledge and opinion is valuable. If s/he had told you something completely different, would you have believed it, since it would not coincide with your intimate knowledge of the situation?
Now, one single goal is in the forefront of your mind. You are focused on this one thing, that is a key thing. If you are able to do this, you wll have made great progress. This is good.
You also have a flesh and blood person as support now. It sounds like you have had some insights about the way you treat yourself.
And, I think you do actually try to control your mother. You try to limit her negative influence on yourself and others. You try to minimise her bad acts in the business. So far, it has not worked, and perhaps it never will.
I think you are making progress and I am happy about that!
Just my untutored opinion, for what it's worth.
Plucky
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Kelly,
The therapist did bring out the most important thing:
YOU ARE TRYING TO CONTROL YOUR MOTHER.
It's true. You are trying to control things that are beyond your control. And you can't do it. And I think the reason you might be doing it is because IT IS WHAT YOU ARE USED TO.
I think he said a lot that is valid... and it's a big horse-pill to swallow.
You need to appease the child (kill the negative tapes that you allow to continue running). You need to set boundaries (you aren't doing that, you are looking for the situation to be a certain way, and it won't be. You can't write the whole script). You need to forget about ever having your mom change (she won't).
I still vote for a go at AlAnon. These are the skills we learn... The therapist can show you where you need to explore, but the step program shows you HOW.
Love and hugs,
Beth
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It IS true!! I am trying to get my mother to do things my way. And how stupid of me. She has NEVER done things my way, why do I think it is going to change now? Ludacris....
Anyway, a really weird thing just happened. I have decided to go to Al-Anon. My church offers it so I am going to go. I got home from work today and couldn't find my husband. Well, he was sitting in his shed drinking and smoking. Drunk. So I told him I was going to Al-Anon. Well, he said it was over and he was going to leave me. So I have been hanging out with my kids because I know he won't do anything in front of them. In fact, he said "Well, what do you want to do?" and I said, "Talk to you when you are sober." I said it in front of my 15 year old. For five years I have been hiding the fact that he is a drunk. Now I have decided to stay with my kids and expose his drinking. He may leave but I am on my way to heal poor baby Kelly. No more second best for me!! I am woman hear me roar. I am taking care of ME!! For once. No more stupid, fat, ugly Kelly. Here comes empowered, skinny, beautiful, confident Kelly!! Kelly, you are an awesome little girl and I am going to help you go through your childhood and adolescence and young adulthood with a good self worth. You love yourself because you are a good girl. You have what it takes!! You don't deserve second best!! You deserve the best!! You ARE worth it!! You are awesome!!
Now either your husband "gets it" or he doesn't................it's up to him, not you!!!
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Hi Kelly,
This is a big event, no matter how much you kind of saw it coming and think it is right. I'm so glad you have a T to help you through it. (and us!)
I'm glad to see your burst of energy (probably fueled by anger, and rightfully so). It will help you push through the initial hard parts.
You can expect a letdown at some point, when your anger has done its work and starts to subside. This is ok and just a normal stage to the next level.
I think it is good that you let your teenager see the reality of what your H has become, or rather see that you see reality, since children always see reality on some level anyway.
What's all this about size anyway? Goodbye to the false image of stupid Kelly. Hello to the reality of smart beautiful confident Kelly. Hello there!
What are you going to say when you talk with your H?
Plucky
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I CONGRATULATE YOU ON A GREAT CHOICE, KELLY!
You are taking back control of your own life and identity! way to GO!
Al-Anon is a wonderful step for you too! I did the Codep Anonymous years ago for the people addiction I used to have. It helps MUCH!
Blessya,
Laura
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Well, as far as what I am going to say? It depends. If it is tonight, I'll say "there's the door." If it is tomorrow, he'll apologize.
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Well Kelly,
sounds like you know just what to expect! I think you have a powerful personality and you will get through this and be so dynamic!
I will be here along with everyone else with you for support on your journey.
I heard a great saying which was attributed to Winston Churchill. "When you're going through hell, keep going."
Plucky
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(((((((Kelly)))))))
You are in my thoughts and prayers. Wishing you and your family the very best.
Love,
Hope
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Kelly,
I'm sorry for what is happening. Good for you to reach out to Al-Anon. I'm sure that will prove to be a great help. Children generally do see and hear what is going on despite our best efforts to hide it. Many blessings as you move through this next phase and take back control.
(((((((((Kelly))))))))))))
Brigid
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((((((((((Kelly))))))))))
My heart is with you - whatever choices you make.
An old Al-anon saying - "Keep coming back!" One of the nice things about Voicelessness is the meeting is open 24 hours a day and 7 days a week - everytime you need it. Take care - GS
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Funny. I went to the therapist to help with my mother. And even though I minimized the importance of what he said, it made quite an impact on me. So the "champion the inner child" made a leap from my mother to my husband. When I got home yesterday (he was off all day and was working on building a fence.......) and he was drunk off his butt. When I told him I was going to Al-anon he started threatening me about leaving me. Then today he said "did I say something I am going to regret?" I said yes. He is trying to hug me, etc. I told him I was through. No more drinking. No more blah blah blah (drunken rage rant)
So, tomorrow I plan to go to my first Al-anon meeting. He told me he is going to quit drinking - we'll see (remember THAT thread??)
Bad thing is, I am going to go watch the football game at my parents with several people. I invited husband but he won't go. That's part of our problem, too. We don't do anything as a couple unless we are with his friends/
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Boy, I am so jumpy. I heard the door open up and I sent that last post before I was done. I was afraid my husband was going to "catch" me online airing our dirty laundry!! :shock: Isn't that stupid?? If I am afraid, what does that mean???
I told him that I told both of my girls that he is a drunk. He said, "Why did you do that?" And I told him because I wasn't going to hide his alcoholism anymore. I was going to tell everyone that he hides in the garage or in the shed so he can drink. We have a real nice deck with a cement patio under it. Wooded lot. It would be a great place to sit and have a beer. But it is not about having a beer. It is about getting drunk. So I believe there is a huge difference. I like a couple beers. A glass of wine, but the thought of getting drunk is so 20 years ago - momentary lapses sometimes................but I catch myself and stop.
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Isn't that stupid?? If I am afraid, what does that mean???
That's not stupid. Not at all. It means that you are not safe! It means you are not free to honor your own needs. Your marriage is not just about him, it is about you as well. You can't address your needs in a troubled marriage without discussing your husband. When my husband was drinking he blamed me. I knew his drinking was his responsibility but he was very angry if he "caught" me talking to anyone about it. He was not at all happy when I went to an Al-anon meeting. He refused to quit drinking and within 7 months of an intervention that went no where - he died. I get why you are scared. This is seroiius stuff. My heart is with you and I send you courage for whatever decision you make. Take courage. your friend - Gaining Strength
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Thank you!! He is totally irrational and I was walking on eggshells last night, tip toeing around, having my kids close by so he couldn't lambast me. Today he is avoiding the subject and as far as I can tell, he hasn't drank anything today. He says he wants to go to church tomorrow - problem is we go once and then the next week he always has an excuse for not going. So we go as a couple about once every six weeks. I go about every other week. I hop between my mom's church and ours. I like ours better but I don't know a lot of people and when he is not with me a feel all alone. Well, my church is the one with the Al-anon meeting so I am looking forward to making that trip and joining other people who are in the same boat. I am sure my husband is freaked a bit because if anyone knows me, then they will figure out that he's an alchy....
Well, he made his bed..........I have been with him almost five years and he has had hills and valleys. Most of the time he's a weekend drunk - including Thursdays...
On another note, I was talking to my mom today and she illuded to talking to a man who had just sold his business................that is good news. That means she is looking into selling...........I hope and pray she sells. I think the guy who buys it will probably hire me back......might get paid a bit less and have to work a bit more, but it will be worth it to work for someone who knows my value and allows me to do a great job!!!
And GS, how did your h die? Was it alcohol related???
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And GS, how did your h die? Was it alcohol related???
Not directly, but had his friends been able to talk him into treatment I feel certain that he could be alive today. He had a heart attack. Drinking was not his only problem he also had bulimia but he was completely secretive about this. It was a complicating factor in his life and his death. The craziness that is often related to addiction is what fractures the family in pieces and the spouse often feels crazy scrambling to pick up all the fragments to try to piece together. (I actually think the craziness is not addiction related but is from the broken humanity and the craziness usually lead to addiction but that is immaterial here.)
Keep an image in your mind of this man buying your business and hiring you back. Hold this image for 5 minutes several times each day and believe in this image. I'll be glad when you are out from under your mother. What remarkable progress you are making. All because you opened your heart to healing. Keep that in mind. Things are changing because you have opened your heart. Trust that the healing has been set in motion. It will be a frightening period at times but trust that you are on your way. Do not get detered from this belief. Your confidence in this will help guide you through the darkness.
Your friend - Gaining Strength
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((((((((((((((((((((((((KELLY)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I AM SO HAPPY FOR YOU. AND SO PROUD OF YOU.
I don't usually shout, but you made such a huge step!!!! Your husband needs to take responsibility for his drinking... whether he quits or not. I doubt he will be able to do it on his own. Maybe once he sees that you are enjoying Al Anon, he will think about trying AA for himself. Drinking is a VERY selfish disease, and it takes us a while to see how selfish we were/are.
You are wonderful Kelly! And you are making soooooooo much progress.
Please keep posting!!! You made my day.
Love, Beth
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Kelly, woman, my Lord, what a determined person can do in one week.
I am AWED.
I know you're scared but I just want to say:
I am SO glad you cried at the counselor's. And he sounds sane and okay. Hope you'll keep going.
I am SO glad you named reality with your H. You have just opened your shared cell door and you are going through. Up to him whether he comes too.
Please expect good days and rough days and don't forget we are here through them.
I am so awed you're going to Al-Anon. One key I've heard is please, please, go six times before deciding whether it's for you.
A last thougt: your church is YOURS. Maybe you can find a group to open up to there, some safe people.
Sending love and courage...
Hops
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Boy oh boy, you guys!! Thanks for all the support. I wouldn't be walking through this tough journey without it.
Went to my first Al-Anon meeting at MY church last night. It was great! I don't have that anonymity stuff very good, however. The other people were saying things like "my alcoholic" and I was saying "my husband." My voice cracked but I didn't cry until another new gal burst into tears.
These people were very supportive. I loved it. My h wasn't too happy, however. He asked me when I was going to divorce court. I told him that if he continues this way, I will go to the divorce court.
So, things are looking up.
At church yesterday the pastor preached on keeping our bodies healthy. This is another thing I need to work on. When I am stressed (and that is a lot) I eat. So I am 50 pounds overweight. Was about 20 but in the past five years I've added another 30!! Even my h told me I eat too much (yesterday - he was trying to deflect the conversation from HIS drinking........)
So I have joined WW and I bought one of those monthly passes - and now I just need to follow the program!
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Kelly,
Wow, you are taking some serious control of your life. Congratulations! I'm glad to hear that the Al-Anon meeting went well and you found support. I'm sure it gets easier after a time. Your h will have to find his own way and decide if he wants to be included in yours. WW is great too. A wonderful program with the best success rate. I wish you all the best.
Hugs,
Brigid
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((((((((Kelly)))))))) Absolutely wonderful! Congratulations on taking these giant steps through the doorway into health and completeness. There will be lots of forces at work trying to pull you off course, but I believe that you have both the desire and the determination it takes to stick with it! Please remember that slips and falls are never failures, but only opportunities to get up and try again. Took me a long while to learn that it's not about running a perfect race, but keeping eyes firmly on the goal, no matter what.
We are all here for you!
Love,
Hope
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It's really one step forward and two steps back. The good news is I should be PMSing which would make all this seem overwhelming but I am doing ok.................so that's good. And it's overcast which usually puts me into a bummer mood!
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Hi all...........my mom and I went to counseling TOGETHER today. Well, some of the words he said were said as if they came out of her mouth. He was parroting what she told him at her counseling session last week. She brought up some of the issues we have at work - like the bookkeeper thing, etc. I told him that no matter what happens, as long as we work together we will never, never, never have a good relationship. We are moving right towards selling the place. My hopes are that it will all work out where we sell , I get a little money to pay off debt and that will be that. Because I cannot work with her - and I told both her AND the therapist that working with her is like being in jail and that I feel sorry for my children who had to watch their mother lay in bed in a deep depression and that is because I felt like there was no escape. I know I have drawn appropriate boundaries with her personally so if I can get away from her professionally then my life will be so much better. I might even be able to have a "normal" relationship with her.
She told me I was delightful this last week and the reason for that is this resolve that you all have witnessed. This "take care of Kelly" resolve. This "drop kick my husband unless he gets his drinking under control" resolve.
I know that you CAN rise above some of the anxiety if you have HOPE. HOPE is the one thing that can get you through a world of hurt. If you don't have hope, it is prison. It is an awful, dark place. I know most of you know that place. But know that with a support group like this, maybe al-anon, maybe Narcissistic Victims anonymous (there isn't such a group, is there? If not, let's start one!!!) It is so wonderful to have loving, supportive people pointing out things that maybe you didn't think of. The therapist? That one little thing last week - take care of Kelly - WAS worth the $100.....................not at first, but after I got to thinking about it!!!
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:D :D :D
Kelly,
I think she loves you and is a huge N-ish pain and that you're right it's impossible for you to work with her and that it's okay for all of that to be true at once.
HURRAY for you and your resolve. It is so exciting to read your bursts toward freedom and self-respect and self-care.
SO impressed with you!
((((Kelly))))
Hops
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Well, don't get too impressed because then I'll get proud and pride comes before a fall. I even got two checks from my husband's work for expenses and then a transportation reimbursement check - then my ex called and told me he got a job, so I just looked up into the sky and said "Thank you, Lord!!!" I have lived for so many years with this feeling of impending doom and all of a sudden, things are looking up! So thank you, God and help me to stay focused on being real!!
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First, Let me clarify,that D is an 0 as in zero...but if it makes you happy and more comfortable, sure, call me Ted by all means..it's more like family,ha!
No, I do not believe that I should tolerate evil or that anyone should. and whoever does carry out evil should be held accountable,period. And maybe subjected to the same treatment as thier victims.Of course I am talking about crime,murders, torture, serious heineous acts. Not that N. is not heineous!
The thing about N's tho is that
1. they will never even begin to admit what they do soyou can't make the guilt to stick to them, they just smile and bat thier eyes whileyou are trying
and
2. They rewrite history to reflect that it is the fault of something else.(like an illness, in fact that is a convieneint scapegoat since, well,N is an illness but not as noble as a physical illness, so much shame around it)
no one can stand to think they actually do this narc stuff, or that this stuff eclipses any good that they try to do. I think the eclipse is a good metaphor for what happens to thier awarenessof thier actions.
I mean. how do you explain that stuff? Slippery slope.
I am very interested in reading the true self false self thread. and I want to learn more about the compliance/siege reaction. I'm glad that this discussion board is here and I appreciate all the feedback, it is helpful! I'm gonna try to be timely too about getting back to read the threads.
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Yes, my mother cites a time period when she had thyroid disease as a time she feels sorry she wasn't, I can't remember what she said, too much fun or fun to be around or something. The fact is, she was no worse to us than usual. She always ignored us. It was just that SHE felt bad physically during that time. So it stands out to her.
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Dear Beth.
I still can't recall my mother ever saying that she was sorry about anything... and I've been trying to remember! How is that possible... for a person to live for 80 years and never once apologize? For years, I was so bound up in perfectionism, I was constantly saying "I'm sorry" about everything... including stuff that was completely beyond my control. N used to hate that. He didn't want me to say anything that remotely sounded negative about myself. I guess he considered that was his job.
Hi Radalteo,
Good to see you back. You're right... I've never seen guilt stick to N. Also, my ex-husband blamed every health problem on someone else. When his diabetes raged out of control, it was my cooking. Couldn't possibly be the fried foods he cooked for himself or the bags of candy and chips he packed away. He really did try to do some good things, too, and I always tried to accentuate the positive with him. Big mistake. Any form of compliment or encouragement re: something good he'd done seemed to only serve to make him slide further down that slippery slope. Yup... eclipse is a good way to describe N's lack of awareness.
Hope to see you again soon.
With love,
Hope
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Hope:Thanx for your reply and the welcome . not that I am happy that somebody else is always apologizing for these people because that means just one more dumpee like me...but strangely enough it's a relief at least to know its NOT my imagination- this whole N thing is more than frustrating but knowing that it's not "all in your head" helps alot! It is debilitating to apologize for breathing and people think you're nuts and they avoid you adding to the pain of it all.
That's all for now, see ya later but not too much later.
by the way : the altemudwald(in my email address) refers to a rough translation from German,sans umlaut, which means
"old weary wood"
it's an imaginary village in the Black Forest which serves as a haven for the exasperated.
it is an idea I had for an art installation dealing with exactly the issues we are discussing!
Just thought I'd share that since art is one way I deal with this stuff.
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Hey Rad and all........welcome. It IS a great relief to finally understand that you are not alone, crazy or otherwise. Even today I thanked our bookkeeper for seeing things as they were. Her belief in me and the situation makes it bearable...
I don't even think many professionals know about Narcissism. I mean, when I went to the counselor it was as if I had concocted the whole thing - maybe it was my way of blaming my mother for being a rotten one. I DO blame her for being a rotten mother and I have identified that she is an N. If the therapist doesn't know about it, then shame on him. It's kind of like the special education teacher at school not knowing about all the therapies out there to help my autistic child...................I have to educate THEM.
So, I'll just know in my heart of hearts and will join with you all for collective spunk to endure the Narcissist in my life......
I like to identify her as the Emperor who has no clothes, or the elephant in the middle of the room. As long as she is the boss, no one but I will point it out!!! Everyone will just walk around with this feeling of guilt, shame, confustion, etc. And there really isn't a thing I can do to help them. Believe me, I have tried, but she will deny, deny, deny and I cannot prove emotional abuse of employees so I just sit back and pray to God that some way, some how this nightmare will end...
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Hope, I always apologized for EVERYTHING too, to the point I annoyed people. I'm a bit better now... I remember one time here in Japan, a lady told me her husband had passed away and I said I was sorry and she kind of laughed and then said, "Why are you saying sorry. You didn't do it." It was a cultural thing (we do say that in America) but even so, it made me think...
Love, Beth
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Kelly,
BTW, my sister is a doctor and she thinks Narcissism is something totally different too... the male abuser or something. They teach a single type of Narcissism, I believe.
Love, Beth
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Rad,
The altemudvald delights me. "A village for the exasperated." :D
I hope you can describe the installation sometime...there are quite a few artisits here.
Glad you're one!
Hops
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Rad,
The altemudvald delights me. "A village for the exasperated." :D
I hope you can describe the installation sometime...there are quite a few artisits here.
Glad you're one!
Hops
I'm glad you are delighted! I never really did the installation yet, it's always been in the idea stage and actually has only been a joke so far,becasue so many people understand it! I am open to ideas and collaboration as to what the place would look like. My own vision is that it is like 18th c. Lisbon,only smaller, ala Voltaire~since he is my model teacher for satire and of course that is what I mean it to be~ I think it really helps me to poke fun at the world, it's definetly theraputic to jeer, laugh real hard in ecstatsy & all that. So, tell me what do you think what it would look like: a shtetl? a capital or republic, minirets and domes or huts? just throwing stuff out there. later rad
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Ahh.. dear Rad, I am artistically challenged and not well read as some of the others folks here, so I have no ready thoughts re: the architectural style of the altemudwald, but do you s'pose it could contain a very large refrigerator stocked with an endless supply of fresh eggs? I have always wanted to try a suggestion I heard years ago... to take a basket of eggs out into the woods and hurl them repeatedly at the trunks of trees.
Seems like an excellent way to release exasperation!! :D
By the way, I'm inclined to check words in the dictionary when I realize that their meaning is hazy to me. Exasperate meant to frustrate, when I'd think of it, so I looked and.... oh yeah, this meaning is much more full and rich!
[v. ig-zas-puh-reyt; adj. ig-zas-per-it]
–verb (used with object) 1. to irritate or provoke to a high degree; annoy extremely: He was exasperated by the senseless delays.
2. Archaic. to increase the intensity or violence of (disease, pain, feelings, etc.).
–adjective 3. Botany. rough; covered with hard, projecting points, as a leaf.
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[Origin: 1525–35; < L exasperātus (ptp. of exasperāre to make rough, provoke), equiv. to ex- ex-1 + asper harsh, rough + -ātus -ate1]
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You guys are on some tangent that I don't understand - maybe I am DEFINITELY artistically challenged!!
Well, it wasn't me that wanted to go to counseling - it was she. If you have read some of my past threads and know anything about my nmom, she is the one who tries to "fix" people. She had my ex in in-patient therapy, my old b/f in rehab and I suppose she thinks a counselor will "fix" me from my angry outbursts. And again, she wouldn't go to the other therapist again because he told her I didn't like her and that wasn't the answer she wanted to hear - so we tried this new one!!
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I turn around and start planning who we might sell the business to. I have contacted the man I think wants it more than anything. But I know if she finds out that I am talking to this man, she will feel betrayed - and I feel guilty.
Hi Kelly,
I will go out on a limb and try to predict the future. You start to arrange the sale of the business to the best buyer. Your M finds out. Your M sabotages the sale no matter how bad this act is for all of you, just because you are organising it. She then turns around and sells to someone else, who will definitely get rid of anyone decent n the business, including you and your friends the bookkeeper.
Then she tells anyone who will listen how you almost messed the whole thing up and she had to rescue the transaction. Feeling guilty is the least of your worries.
Plucky
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Plucky: I have to say that you have it all figured out. Yes, if she thinks for a minute that that man is behind the inquiry, she will stop it dead in it's tracks. He used to work for us and she let him go - she blames him for some stuff................he was the scapegoat. He did use my mom's money to get involved in the first place. When we originally bought the store, he came to her and told her he could help her - he convinced her to pay him a lot - later she felt like he got too much for what he did...........but it had always been his dream to have a store like ours, he just saw a woman who had enough money to fund it. Problem is, he didn't really know her and had no idea she was a raging N and so he wasn't ready for her venom!! So if she gets wind that he is behind anything - and especially if aunt gets wind of it - forget it. Aunt hates the man. But isn't it funny - she sticks up for sister but not daughter!!?
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Aww, Kelly. I'm sorry. Her grudge means more than your dreams.
About the therapy: maybe what the T will be working on is not "fixing" either of you, but helping you both fix the transactions and communication between you?
Hops
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No, I think Plucky said it best................with the preconceived notions by the T, I just look like an unstable person who is desperately trying to point the finger at my poor, accused nmom...................if he only knew................................we won't be going back. We decided we were at an impass and I am happy with that..................there is no fixing the situation as it is.....
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oh boy Kelly, Plucky
I will go out on a limb and try to predict the future. You start to arrange the sale of the business to the best buyer. Your M finds out. Your M sabotages the sale no matter how bad this act is for all of you, just because you are organising it. She then turns around and sells to someone else, who will definitely get rid of anyone decent n the business, including you and your friends the bookkeeper.
This sounds sickeningly familiar. See N as saboteur. Think Kronos or Black Widow - they ate their own children. Can't make sense of it - don't even try. But here we are - many of us children of N. This is the sickest and most numbing and most unbelievable truth about Ns. This is the last one for me to understand and the most painful. Oh that I had known this 25 years ago. How different would be my life today. Oh that I do something about this knowledge today so that I don't waste another 25. - Don't waste any more years hoping that N mother with not sabotage you Kelly. Don't let her do it. No No No!!!
Don't let her!!! your friend and fellow victim of sabotage - Gaining Strength
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Believe me - I have a plan. I know that my nmom is very concerned about the welfare of my children. She has gone overboard trying to make up for the neglect she did to me while she was building her super human career and persona........................so if she perceives letting me work from home to be with my kids (meanwhile getting me out of the business so she can do her thing...............without my interference......) a good thing, I may be able to do my work from home. This would be wonderful for me because I would be paid but able to stay home and work.................this would take the frustration of working with nmom and incompetent aunt away.....only thing is, bookkeeper will probably quit and the business will be in a MAJOR world of hurt without her!
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Hi Everyone!! Ok, I figured something out tonight. Al-Anon is great. I should have done this years ago. This one gal was talking about being a detective and knowing where her alcoholic husband spend his money (look at her online banking.............) and following him and etc. etc. This need to know everything so that somehow she felt in control...............even though she wasn't really in control at all!!! She just knew what he was up to. I used to do this with my ex...............I would obsess. I would drive by his girlfriend's house. I bugged the phone to catch him calling a woman. I called and told the credit card company that our credit card had been stolen - we were separated and I gave him a card with $100 on it - in a couple of months he had $6000 charged up - he went to use it and it was declined........................anyway, this need to control something. Then I realized when I was young and I wasn't really sure about life, had never heard the word dysfunction or codependent.......................and I drank - a lot!! And my nmom did the same thing. She went through my drawers and found birth control pills and confronted me with it. And when I didn't go to church, she showed up at my door after church to see why I wasn't in church - a need to control!! Then I realized it - MY FAMILY IS TOTALLY DYSFUNCTIONAL. IT'S ME. IT'S MY NMOM. IT'S MY ALCOHOLIC HUSBAND. IT'S MY AUNT.........................our poor bookkeeper should run the other way!!! Run as fast as you can!! If you stay here you will be sucked into the dysfunctional family rules!!!!!
Al-anon works for my family dynamic - do you think that narcissism is like alcoholism?? Aren't they both addictions??? Or is N really a personality disorder??? Sometimes I think it is an addiction....................
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Ahh.. dear Rad, I am artistically challenged and not well read as some of the others folks here, so I have no ready thoughts re: the architectural style of the altemudwald, but do you s'pose it could contain a very large refrigerator stocked with an endless supply of fresh eggs? I have always wanted to try a suggestion I heard years ago... to take a basket of eggs out into the woods and hurl them repeatedly at the trunks of trees.
Seems like an excellent way to release exasperation!! :D
By the way, I'm inclined to check words in the dictionary when I realize that their meaning is hazy to me. Exasperate meant to frustrate, when I'd think of it, so I looked and.... oh yeah, this meaning is much more full and rich!
[v. ig-zas-puh-reyt; adj. ig-zas-per-it]
–verb (used with object) 1. to irritate or provoke to a high degree; annoy extremely: He was exasperated by the senseless delays.
2. Archaic. to increase the intensity or violence of (disease, pain, feelings, etc.).
–adjective 3. Botany. rough; covered with hard, projecting points, as a leaf.
Yes, frustrate to the nth degree and beyond. I like the eggs idea, the throwing and all, it could be a semiannual ritual,eh, Kinda ironic that you mention that becasue I have used eggs in soem of my imagery in the past, feeling like just an egg in the world, a little too fragile, or nondescript as if I am just one of 1000's, that kind of thing? Keep up with this idea, there could be looming eggs over the architecture of the village, or they could be part of the landscape. I definetly think they have huge symbolic value!! Thanx,keep it coming!
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[Origin: 1525–35; < L exasperātus (ptp. of exasperāre to make rough, provoke), equiv. to ex- ex-1 + asper harsh, rough + -ātus -ate1]
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Alte-mud-wald?
A village for exasperated mudpuppies!
:-)
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Hi Kelly,
I'm really glad AlAnon is working for you! :)
Hops
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Hi Rad,
Bounced on your post again and I still love it.
I won't be much help because I have a very surreal and sometimes dark sense of humor.
So...I was thinking about the phrase "a village for the exasperated."
Village makes me think of simple, humble, and vulnerable cultures.
Exasperated is a sophisticated, modern, ironic word to me.
So my brain put them together and came up with -- any of those architectural models that appeal o you most, but with an important feature on the outskirts:
a rabbit chewing hard on the tires of a poorly-armored Humvee.
(This is no doubt why I could never be trusted to be a 3-D artist.) :lol:
Hops (hope you don't mind the detour, Kelly...if so, let us know, another thread can start)
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Hops, you should change your name to Salvidor...
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Ewww.
I know. I have written some realllllllly dark poems. Can't imagine what I'd a done w/an innocent watch.
But really...if you think of a rabbit as soft, vulnerable, endearing ... then think of what most exasperates many people today (the war), well, I think a rabbit worth its fur would be out there determindedly chewing away on the Humvee tires, using the small weapon (his l'il rabbit voice, I guess) to gnaw at a symbol of something terrible...
then again. One more bite and the whole enterprise could spring a leak. Pfffffft.
No more war.
(It would perhaps be necessary to write this obscure explication in the "catalogue"... :lol:)
Rad, I can squawk about it, but you build YOURS, and the exasperated will come!
Hops
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Yeah - I know that a Narcissist is self-absorbed to the core....................alcohol takes over your psyche and if left unchecked, I believe it is as ominous as Narcissism (IMO)
But S&S, I agree there ARE differences.........................but when alcohol is full blown - the chaos that surrounds it can be the same as the chaos that surrounds Ns.........
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Sovereign + Safe
I am very interested in the distinction you make here between NPD and addict. I am focusing on your description of an addict:
WHereas addiction is something that takes hold of a person.. often a substance
or an addictive habit to fill up a void.. but does not define the persons
whole life, whole personality.
I am able to see how I took on many characteristics from my N father. Whether these characteristics were out of wounding or from modelling I'm not sure. But I am sure that I have a hole and it feels like free floating anxiety and low grade depression every moment of every day. For me, it seems that this wounding is what has taken hold of me and so it functions something like an addiction. For a while I could not separate the two: me and my maladaptive behavior. But like your description of addiction my maladaptive behavior "does not define the person". There was a long time when your desciption of NPD's applied to me. "Their whole structure of identity is involved. Their defense system. It is part of who they are." But I have ALWAYS wanted to change. And I have searched for the answer to my question, "What is wrong with me." since I was a child. And that is what distinguishes me from a person with NPD and a person with narcissistic behaviors. -GS