Is Guilt an Appropriate Feeling?

[Certain Hope]

((((((((Kelly))))))))  Absolutely wonderful!  Congratulations on taking these giant steps through the doorway into health and completeness. There will be lots of forces at work trying to pull you off course, but I believe that you have both the desire and the determination it takes to stick with it! Please remember that slips and falls are never failures, but only opportunities to get up and try again. Took me a long while to learn that it's not about running a perfect race, but keeping eyes firmly on the goal, no matter what.
We are all here for you!

Love,
Hope

[Overcomer]

It's really one step forward and two steps back.  The good news is I should be PMSing which would make all this seem overwhelming but I am doing ok.................so that's good.  And it's overcast which usually puts me into a bummer mood!

[Overcomer]

Hi all...........my mom and I went to counseling TOGETHER today.  Well, some of the words he said were said as if they came out of her mouth.  He was parroting what she told him at her counseling session last week.  She brought up some of the issues we have at work  - like the bookkeeper thing, etc.  I told him that no matter what happens, as long as we work together we will never, never, never have a good relationship.  We are moving right towards selling the place.  My hopes are that it will all work out where we sell , I get a little money to pay off debt and that will be that.  Because I cannot work with her - and I told both her AND the therapist that working with her is like being in jail and that I feel sorry for my children who had to watch their mother lay in bed in a deep depression and that is because I felt like there was no escape.  I know I have drawn appropriate boundaries with her personally so if I can get away from her professionally then my life will be so much better.  I might even be able to have a "normal" relationship with her.

She told me I was delightful this last week and the reason for that is this resolve that you all have witnessed.  This "take care of Kelly" resolve.  This "drop kick my husband unless he gets his drinking under control" resolve.

I know that you CAN rise above some of the anxiety if you have HOPE.  HOPE is the one thing that can get you through a world of hurt.  If you don't have hope, it is prison.  It is an awful, dark place.  I know most of you know that place.  But know that with a support group like this, maybe al-anon, maybe Narcissistic Victims anonymous (there isn't such a group, is there?  If not, let's start one!!!)  It is so wonderful to have loving, supportive people pointing out things that maybe you didn't think of.  The therapist?  That one little thing last week - take care of Kelly - WAS worth the $100.....................not at first, but after I got to thinking about it!!!

[Hopalong]

 

Kelly,
I think she loves you and is a huge N-ish pain and that you're right it's impossible for you to work with her and that it's okay for all of that to be true at once.

HURRAY for you and your resolve. It is so exciting to read your bursts toward freedom and self-respect and self-care.

SO impressed with you!
((((Kelly))))

Hops

[Overcomer]

Well, don't get too impressed because then I'll get proud and pride comes before a fall.  I even got two checks from my husband's work for expenses and then a transportation reimbursement check - then my ex called and told me he got a job, so I just looked up into the sky and said "Thank you, Lord!!!"  I have lived for so many years with this feeling of impending doom and all of a sudden, things are looking up!  So thank you, God and help me to stay focused on  being real!!

[RADALTE0623]

First, Let me clarify,that D is an 0 as in zero...but if it makes you happy and more comfortable, sure, call me Ted by all means..it's more like family,ha!
No, I do not believe that I should tolerate evil  or that anyone should. and whoever does carry out evil should be held accountable,period. And maybe subjected to the same treatment as thier victims.Of course I am talking about crime,murders, torture, serious heineous acts. Not that N. is not heineous! 
 The thing about N's tho is that
1. they will never even begin to admit what they do soyou can't make the guilt to stick to them, they just smile and bat thier eyes whileyou are trying
 and
 2. They rewrite history to reflect that it is the fault of something else.(like an illness, in fact that is a convieneint scapegoat since, well,N is an illness but not as noble as a physical illness, so much shame around it) 
 no one can stand to think they actually do this narc stuff, or that this stuff eclipses any good that they try to do. I think the eclipse is a good metaphor for what happens to thier awarenessof thier actions.
  I mean. how do you explain that stuff? Slippery slope.
I am very interested in reading the true self false self thread. and I want to learn more about the compliance/siege reaction. I'm glad that this discussion board is here and I appreciate all the feedback, it is helpful! I'm gonna try to be timely too about getting back to read the threads.

[gratitude28]

Yes, my mother cites a time period when she had thyroid disease as a time she feels sorry she wasn't, I can't remember what she said, too much fun or fun to be around or something. The fact is, she was no worse to us than usual. She always ignored us. It was just that SHE felt bad physically during that time. So it stands out to her.

[Certain Hope]

Dear Beth.

  I still can't recall my mother ever saying that she was sorry about anything... and I've been trying to remember! How is that possible... for a person to live for 80 years and never once apologize?  For years, I was so bound up in perfectionism, I was constantly saying "I'm sorry" about everything... including stuff that was completely beyond my control. N used to hate that. He didn't want me to say anything that remotely sounded negative about myself. I guess he considered that was his job.

Hi Radalteo,

  Good to see you back. You're right... I've never seen guilt stick to N. Also, my ex-husband blamed every health problem on someone else. When his diabetes raged out of control, it was my cooking. Couldn't possibly be the fried foods he cooked for himself or the bags of candy and chips he packed away. He really did try to do some good things, too, and I always tried to accentuate the positive with him. Big mistake. Any form of compliment or encouragement re: something good he'd done seemed to only serve to make him slide further down that slippery slope. Yup... eclipse is a good way to describe N's lack of awareness.
   Hope to see you again soon.

With love,
Hope

[RADALTEO]

Hope:Thanx for your reply and the welcome . not that I am happy that somebody else is always apologizing for these people because that means just one more dumpee like me...but strangely enough it's a relief at least to know its NOT my imagination- this whole N thing is more than frustrating but knowing that it's not "all in your head" helps alot! It is debilitating to apologize for breathing and people think you're nuts and they avoid you adding to the pain of it all.
That's all for now, see ya later but not too much later.
by the way :  the altemudwald(in my email address) refers to a rough translation from German,sans umlaut, which means
 "old weary wood"
it's an imaginary village in the Black Forest which serves as a haven for the exasperated.
it is an idea I had for an art installation dealing with exactly the issues we are discussing!
 Just thought I'd share that since art is one way I deal with this stuff.

[Overcomer]

Hey Rad and all........welcome.  It IS a great relief to finally understand that you are not alone, crazy or otherwise.  Even today I thanked our bookkeeper for seeing things as they were.  Her belief in me and the situation makes it bearable...

I don't even think many professionals know about Narcissism.  I mean, when I went to the counselor it was as if I had concocted the whole thing - maybe it was my way of blaming my mother for being a rotten one.  I DO blame her for being a rotten mother and I have identified that she is an N.  If the therapist doesn't know about it, then shame on him.  It's kind of like the special education teacher at school not knowing about all the therapies out there to help my autistic child...................I have to educate THEM.

So, I'll just know in my heart of hearts and will join with you all for collective spunk to endure the Narcissist in my life......

I like to identify her as the Emperor who has no clothes, or the elephant in the middle of the room.  As long as she is the boss, no one but I will point it out!!!  Everyone will just walk around with this feeling of guilt, shame, confustion, etc.  And there really isn't a thing I can do to help them.  Believe me, I have tried, but she will deny, deny, deny and I cannot prove emotional abuse of employees so I just sit back and pray to God that some way, some how this nightmare will end...

[gratitude28]

Hope, I always apologized for EVERYTHING too, to the point I annoyed people. I'm a bit better now... I remember one time here in Japan, a lady told me her husband had passed away and I said I was sorry and she kind of laughed and then said, "Why are you saying sorry. You didn't do it." It was a cultural thing (we do say that in America) but even so, it made me think...
Love, Beth

[gratitude28]

Kelly,
BTW, my sister is a doctor and she thinks Narcissism is something totally different too... the male abuser or something. They teach a single type of Narcissism, I believe.
Love, Beth

[Hopalong]

Rad,
The altemudvald delights me. "A village for the exasperated." 

I hope you can describe the installation sometime...there are quite a few artisits here.

Glad you're one!

Hops

[RADALTE0623]

Rad,
The altemudvald delights me. "A village for the exasperated." 

I hope you can describe the installation sometime...there are quite a few artisits here.

Glad you're one!

Hops

I'm glad you are delighted! I never really did the installation yet, it's always been in the idea stage and actually has only been a joke so far,becasue so many people understand it! I am open to ideas and collaboration as to what the place would look like. My own vision is that it is like 18th c. Lisbon,only smaller, ala Voltaire~since he is my model teacher for satire and of course that is what I mean it to be~ I think it really helps me to poke fun at the world, it's definetly theraputic to jeer, laugh real hard in ecstatsy & all that. So, tell me what do you think what it would look like: a shtetl? a capital or republic, minirets and domes or huts? just throwing stuff out there. later rad

[Certain Hope]

Ahh.. dear Rad, I am artistically challenged and not well read as some of the others folks here, so I have no ready thoughts re: the architectural style of the altemudwald, but do you s'pose it could contain a very large refrigerator stocked with an endless supply of fresh eggs? I have always wanted to try a suggestion I heard years ago... to take a basket of eggs out into the woods and hurl them repeatedly at the trunks of trees.
Seems like an excellent way to release exasperation!! 

By the way, I'm inclined to check words in the dictionary when I realize that their meaning is hazy to me. Exasperate meant to frustrate, when I'd think of it, so I looked and.... oh yeah, this meaning is much more full and rich!

[v. ig-zas-puh-reyt; adj. ig-zas-per-it]

–verb (used with object) 1. to irritate or provoke to a high degree; annoy extremely: He was exasperated by the senseless delays. 
2. Archaic. to increase the intensity or violence of (disease, pain, feelings, etc.). 
–adjective 3. Botany. rough; covered with hard, projecting points, as a leaf. 


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[Origin: 1525–35; < L exasper&#257;tus (ptp. of exasper&#257;re to make rough, provoke), equiv. to ex- ex-1 + asper harsh, rough + -&#257;tus -ate1]