Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on August 31, 2006, 10:32:21 AM
-
Hi,
In examining some of the various false selves which are part of my own personallity (thanks again, Jac :)) I'm seeing that there's a strong emphasis on idealism which needs to be tempered. Part of recovering from perfectionism has required a relaxation of standards on my part, mainly the impossible standards to which I'd previously held myself, but I'd never really considered idealism as something which can be excessive. It always seemed to me to be a wonderfully grand thing to maintain such high ideals and always aim for the very best. Thanks to an article I read recently, I can see the damaging effects of such extreme idealism, including how it can be used as a means of controlling others.
I'm copying this here a bit out of order, because I was so struck by the examples of irrational thoughts which lie behind what is termed here "Over-Idealism". I have thought these things and can see that I'll really have to work on clearing up some wrong thinking in order to get this particular expression of "self" to behave :)
What irrational thinking results in over-idealism?
They should know what they are supposed to do.
Life should be perfectly in line with what has been promised when we were encouraged to live a good life, work hard, and treat others fairly.
The goals of the organization should always be the goals of every member of the organization.
We should always act, think, and feel like everyone else who is a member of this group, family, school, work site, church, or community.
It should be easy to make friends in a situation which I have freely chosen to join because everyone in the situation should be just like me.
They should be as committed to this goal, job, or target behavior as I am.
Everyone should be as sincere, trustworthy, and honest in their dealings with me as I am with them.
If I have been willing to make these sacrifices for them, they should show their appreciation to me for this.
They should work as hard as I do.
They should be as generous, giving, and caring as I am.
They should know how I feel about them, what I want from them, and what I need in my life.
They should appreciate me for what I do around here.
People should be nice to one another around here if we are going to be successful.
Everybody should fit in with everybody else around here in order for us to reach our goals.
Arguments, disagreements, and differences of opinions should not occur around here.
Everybody should be as clear and precise about our goals here as I am.
If I am here for you, you should be here for me.
You should respect my work just like I respect yours.
They should only hire, appoint, or select people for this job, task, or responsibility who are appropriate.
Everybody should put in an honest day's work for an honest day's wage.
I should do everything perfectly in order to meet my standards so as to encourage others to follow my example.
What are the negative effects of being overly idealistic?
If you continue to be overly idealistic, then you could:
Experience poor adjustment at school, on the job, or in the community because you could become identified as a "gadfly,'' "rebel,'' or a person with a "chip on your shoulder.''
Have problems and get in trouble with authority figures who are not functioning in a way you believe correct and you've let them know this.
Become very depressed, despondent and despair over how imperfect life is at home, school, work, or in the community.
Find it difficult to fully accept anyone the way they really are and chronically attempt to control them so that they can become the way they "should ideally be.''
Resent any attempts to help you recognize the rational, pragmatic, and political strategies for coping with a "less than perfect or ideal'' life.
Find that your tenure is short on any job with a boss and, after a series of job failures, you might need to seek a job where you can be your own boss and not have to deal with less than ideal bosses or employees.
Become so hypercritical and controlling over all of the people in your life that they shy away and become more distant and cool with you.
Become the fall guy or scapegoat for any problems or trouble in the system at home, school, work, or in the community as a means to quiet your outspokenness and to lay the blame and responsibility for the problems on you.
Be misunderstood, ignored, undervalued, rejected, non-approved, unsupported by the people in your home, school, work and community systems.
Be so frustrated in not being able to control people to meet your ideals that you regularly experience anger, temper, and raging outbursts against these people.
Turn into a cynic or become fatalistic, hostile, pessimistic, and negativistic.
Be so blinded by your "shining'' ideals that you forget others are free to have their own opinion and become discouraged when you think no one is listening to you.
Experience a lowering of your self-esteem because you are not capable of living your ideals in your life spheres.
How is over-idealism a control issue
Over-idealism is a control issue because:
It is your attempt to put the "locus of control'' in your hands to get others to be the way they should be for you.
It is at the root of your need to overcontrol situations, people, places, or things in order to ensure that they come into compliance with your ideal image of the way reality is supposed to be.
You can resort to coercion, intimidation, or threats to get people, places or things to come into line with the ideals you expect them to have.
It often is at the base of your need to fix or be a caretaker because you see something less than ideal or perfect and impulsively reach out to change or care for it.
In your need to politically espouse your ideal belief system, you can utilize manipulation, conning, storytelling, promise making, favor swapping, and bargaining to get people, places, or things into line with you.
It often can blind you to the uncontrollables or unchangeables in your life so that rather than admit to powerlessness and then let go of them, you conversely work harder to change and bring them under control.
When you find it difficult to detach from others, it is often your idealized image of the way you are supposed to act, be, or behave that keeps you emotionally hanging on to these people.
It is often a barrier to your ability to gain self-control over your life because your idealism blinds you to what is reasonable, realistic and achievable for you in your life.
Behind your need to gain control and power over other persons, places, or things is the idealistic image or fantasy of the way your world is supposed to be and how only you have the answers to bring your world into synch with this image.
You are willing to sacrifice your own resources, energy, spirit, physical stamina or health in order to get your ideal image of the way life is supposed to be actualized in the lives of the people, places, and things with whom you come into contact.
It encourages a lack of moderation or compromise in your efforts to control others so that you can feel sane in an ideal world and at peace with the ideal way in which people should treat you.
A complete listing of overly idealistic traits as well as ways to reduce impact of idealism in your life (including specific steps to temper this characteristic) are available at: http://www.coping.org/control/idealism.htm
All of this goes so hand-in-hand with perfectionism as well as improper/non-functioning boundaries, that I think it really needs to be addressed early on in the process of healing.
Hope
-
This is most helpful Hope,
For I have always believed all could be overcome by sheer will or a spirit of optimism.
(This feeling is effective when not in depression)
Having the understanding we are all human we all make mistakes makes it easier to forgive self and others to reach compassion .
When that is done real movement toward change can happen.
I wish to have a realistic optimism that is useful not pie in the sky thinking.
Thank you Hope for this thread in particular is helping me at the stage I am at. :D
Whatever that is????????????
Moon
-
Oh, Moon... I don't think there even is a name for some of these stages, so who cares! :D
As long as we're moving forward and not sliding in reverse, it's progress!!
You're welcome. And thank you, too.
And... Amen to realistic optimism.
Love,
Hope
-
Certain Hope
I went to the coping.org site. Thank you. It is filled with so much. I am starting with TEA.
Thoughts, Emotions, Actions.
My parallysis has worsened. TEA takes me back to where I was a few weeks ago. Correct Thoughts precede the emotions and actions. This is the key to getting moving. I am certain of this. It gives me a place to focus.
Since I started participating in this forum things have gotten much worse for me. I choose to believe that I am experiencing the resistance that occurs with any positive changes and I am sticking with it. I choose to believe that this is a sign of change and progress and I welcome it. No I embrace it. Come resistance, you are the sign of change I have been looking for - and I am ready. I will not give up, I will not give in to resistance. I do not see it as a door closed but as a door open.
Gaining Strength
-
My parallysis has worsened. TEA takes me back to where I was a few weeks ago. Correct Thoughts precede the emotions and actions. This is the key to getting moving. I am certain of this. It gives me a place to focus.
Since I started participating in this forum things have gotten much worse for me. I choose to believe that I am experiencing the resistance that occurs with any positive changes and I am sticking with it. I choose to believe that this is a sign of change and progress and I welcome it. No I embrace it. Come resistance, you are the sign of change I have been looking for - and I am ready. I will not give up, I will not give in to resistance. I do not see it as a door closed but as a door open.
Yes, GS, you are doing okay. Things are coming to the surface. Dealing with them is harder when they come to the surface. It feels so much worse. But that is the only thing that will heal you is to let it come to the surface. You can do this. It is very hard. But you can do this. It's going to feel very strange to be on the other side of the door. It does not feel better at first. But in reality it is better. Just very unfamiliar. We have all been through that strangeness. It will be worth it.
PP
-
Uh-oh.
I agree totally, enthusiastically and whole-heartedly with the basic premise - that having unrealistically high standards sets us up for failure and disappointment and allows us to be taken advantage of.
But I'm not 100% in agreement with all the things presented as examples of unrealistically high standards.
I'm having a bit of trouble here with just a few. Some of them sound like basic fairness and reciprocity to me; the kind of things that abusers have taught me that I have no right to expect. Let me put those specific statements into if-then format - if x, then y - to clarify their basic conditional nature: and let's see what happens with a little logical analysis.
Here we go: the initial statement, then the statement in conditional format.
If I am here for you, you should be here for me. [No modification needed.]
You should respect my work just like I respect yours. [If I respect your work, you should respect mine.]
They should only hire, appoint, or select people for this job, task, or responsibility who are appropriate. [If they hire specific people for this job, then the specific people should be appropriate for the job.]
Everybody should put in an honest day's work for an honest day's wage. [If people expect an honest day's wage, they should put in an honest day's work.]
What are the converse, inverse and contrapositive versions of these statements?
Converse: if y, then x.
If you are here for me, then I should be here for you.
If you respect my work, then I should respect your work.
If specific people are appropriate for this job or task, then those people should be hired for it.
If people put in an honest day's work, they should expect an honest day's pay.
Well... these four versions seems fair and reasonable to me. Golden Rule-ish, as a matter of fact.
What are the inverses of these statements? If not x, then not y.
If I am not here for you, then you should not be here for me.
If I do not respect your work, then you should not respect my work.
If they do not hire specific people for this job or task, then those specific people should be not appropriate to the job or task.
If people do not expect an honest day's pay, they should not put in an honest day's work.
I hate to say it, but these seem pretty fair to me too...
What are the contrapositives? If not y, then not x.
If you are not here for me, then I should not be here for you.
If you do not respect my work, then I should not respect your work.
If people are not appropriate for this job or task, then they should not be hired for it.
If people do not put in an honest day's work, they should not expect an honest day's pay.
.... and so do these, although some of them are a bit tough-love-ish. Perhaps we could say... if you are not here for me, then I should not be expected to be here for you; and if you do not respect my work, then I should not be expected to respect yours. That's a little less tough-lovey.
Now: a conditional statement [if x, then y] and its contrapositive [if not y, then not x] are logically equivalent. And the converse [if y, then x] and the inverse [if not x, then not y] are also logically equivalent to each other.
So if the contrapositives of the original statements seem reasonable and fair.... then... the original statements must also be reasonable and fair, because, logically, they're the exact same thing.
I will have to think about this some more, because I think that set of contrapositives is basically about not being abused; and if that's true, then so are the original conditional statements.
oopsie: edit in, and it's the most important part of this entire post. The key to understanding all this blah-blah-blah is really very simple.
Creating the converse and contrapositives for two of the four statements that 'hooked' me... involves putting "Me" and "You" in each other's places. If "Me" and "you" have equivalent value, then the statement and its converse will be logically equivalent, as well as the statement and its contrapositive. And isn't it funny that the converses, above, are the ones that look like the Golden Rule? The ones that start with 'you' and end with 'me'? The ones that put another first, and oneself last? Could it be that the original statements seem to be unrealistically idealistic because they make the assumption that we are of equal value to others?[/b]
Sorry everybody. This probably sounds like total confusion. What it really is, is an analysis of rhetoric. We don't get taught that very much these days. Feel free to ignore everything I've just gone through here, if your eyes are crossing.
What I'm really getting at is - when adjusting one's standards to match reality, it's a good idea to be sure the baby doesn't go out with the bath water. Life isn't fair, for sure. But in facing the fact that life isn't fair, we need to make sure that we insist on being fair to ourselves. Otherwise, we could end up right back on the receiving end of abuse, again.
-
GS,
Don't you give up and don't you worry if you slipped. Two steps forward + one step back still = FORWARD, as you just identified.
So can I rephrase something, just for you, and totally seriously, because I GET the paralysis feeling? (And like you, I also refuse to give up...?) Here goes:
A two-foot square.
(((((GS)))))
Hops
-
Hi,
I was very interested in the Over-Idealism concepts.
Nearly bit off my fingers to avoid sending it to my D, but I am not doing "heavy" with her unless asked.
Then, thought about it some more, and it occurs to me that although I do think it makes a lot of sense, I also hold a sort of paradoxical thought:
Forgiveness eliminates a lot of the scorekeeping that's in the list.
(Not confusing forgiveness with being a doormat, one can still hold limits and assert reciprocity, but when it fails, one can disengage with forgiveness. Just seems less...exhausting.)
A woman at work knew I overheard her saying something spiteful about me when she was feeling powerful. I just quietly withdrew and didn't engage for a week. Today she made a point of greeting me and asking "how are you." I do not trust her and would not choose to be close to her now (that's the boundary), but I decided to not be cold or spiteful back. Wasn't gushy warm, either, no fake smile...but I offered her a muffin and made a mild joke and her face lit up. I guess she felt worse about it than I did. Over and done.
I just went right back to my desk and kept working, and noticed that unlike earlier times in my life, I just let it go. Actually forgot about it until just now. And it had been something that had hurt for several days.
I'm glad about it. I think R's death is rearranging me in some serious ways.
Hops
-
Hi All ,
This process of feelings are like waves of love ,acceptance and courage in the face of so much pain .
What has given me the understanding of the process of healing is I have been doing it all my life never ending healing
and then the understanding of the experience that has brought sadness and then whatever propels me into healing.
I am not as afraid of the pain as I once was and accept life as it comes and I find myself just glad to be.
I understand being stuck and the feeling of knowing I am stuck but now I allow the feelings and like PP said I stay with that feeling and do not push it away.But I understand pushing the pain away.No right or wrong only being and the process .Life is not fair sometimes.
But we can be fair to ourselves and others .What else can we ask of ourselves .Staying with your feelings ,taking a step its
all a process of just accepting that it OK to be where you are.
My longest experience of being stuck or slow movement was when my twin passed away young.My depression lasted ten years my dear mom passed five years after my twin.My mom and my twin were the very breath of life to me.So I know the process from feeling and living the process .
I am giving myself space and as I understand self I understand others .I now understand with my head. Thats the way it happened to me to find forgiveness of self and others and now I am understanding in words what happened to my heart .
Heart and head the understanding can bring relief.
Much Love
MoonLight
-
Hi Hope,
It has taken me a few days to read through the list fairly thoroughly. I guess it rang a bell with me. My parents believed all of these "irrational thoughts". So that must be how I was raised. So, it takes some doing not to see these ideas as "truth". Even though I never really thought of myself as idealistic, I have experienced pretty much all of the negative effects of being overly-idealistic as they are listed here. It truly explains so much of the frustration of being me. Especially as a child. I always thought my parents knew better, afterall!!!!! I guess they only knew what they had been taught. I kind of think these ideas are also taught to us culturally as part of what makes the "American Dream". Can this partly explain our cultural narcissism? Possibly.....
Now that I have pretty much disengaged from the N who brought me here, it does feel like I'm on the other side of the doorway. Sort of like that white space in the Matrix. I'm not in such a panic about what will fill in to that space. Normally I would panic about the unknown. But it doesn't really seem unknown so much as something that just hasn't happened yet. One good thing for me in this situation of being through the doorway is that autumn is on the way. My favorite season. Fall easily reminds me of who I really am. So, the timing couldn't be better for me with this new batch of knowlege.
Hope and all the others who put so much effort into the research--thank you very much for sharing it. I'm kind of lazy that way. And also tired from my job. I probably wouldn't go to such efforts to find the articles. But having the excerpts right here to read when I need them makes a big difference. So, thank you.
Now time to get ready for work.
Love, Pennyplant
-
Hey jac -- I agree with you too. And you and tracks have both gotten to an underlying presupposition here, that is used by so many to get away with so much: that whatever is, is okay, because it is, and we don't control it. That 'acceptance' equals passive tolerance and dispirited resignation to whatever happens to us.
Which would make it OK for Hops' colleague to slander her and then turn around and make nice without ever owning, or owning up to, what she has done, and Hops is obligated to let her 'get away' with that.
[Hops, ouch. From me to you, for you. I understand the need for peace, but I myself can no longer accept the second part of that phrase - the 'at any price' part. I've paid my entire lifetime's price already, it's long past time for the goods to be delivered. That's me. Others may be able to pay more for longer. Had I been in your place, I probably would have answered her question with a question - stated very calmly while looking her directly in the eyes: 'Why do you ask?'
I think your colleague was looking for 'cheap grace', for absolution without any hint of either confession or atonement. There are reasons for those steps, and it's no coincidence at all that the sequence runs: sin, awareness, conviction, repentance, confession/atonement, absolution. Forgiving someone who has not taken responsibility for their own actions isn't for them. It's for the forgiver. Which may be fine... but we should never mistake it for anything else. It's for us, and for us alone, always, when we do it. It's not for the relationship, because there is none, after that. Not in any adult sense. We have removed the mutuality, which is the foundation of adult relating.]
If we have even a rudimentary conscience we don't really WANT to 'get away' with anything.
Have you ever had a ringside seat at the ruination of a person? Watched them pull a fast one, and look around to see if they got caught, and get maybe a slap on the wrist? Have you ever seen the look of slyness and contempt that comes into a human face when they have done something they know is wrong, and gotten away with it in broad daylight in front of God and everybody, and concluded that they can do what they like from here on out and will never be held to account? Watched them make the awful choice to become corrupt? When one word, one look, one tiny confrontation - one person expecting accountability - might have been the thing that prevented and preserved.
I have. Over, and over, and over. It is one of the most sickening things in the world, to watch a person go down the tubes, by their own choice, because nobody with the authority to address the situation has the guts or the will to intervene.
Even our imperfect system of laws recognizes certain verbal or unspoken obligations as contractual - look at tort lawyers. Man, do they make money. Off of situations like these.
And that - that internal sense that we should behave decently and be able to expect decency in return - is the thing that sets us up. If we fall back from that and apply one standard to ourselves, and a lower standard to everyone else, we don't need no stinking abusers.
Because we have internalized them.
That's where I was going with this. Once we accept and internalize a double standard which expects more automatically from ourselves than it does from anyone else, once we conclude that we are obligated to extend cheap grace to all comers but we must be accoutable to them, we might as well hang an Open Season sign around our necks, and hand out hunting permits.
-
Unfortunately, I rarely have time to read what everyone posts on here in each section, but I did read the initial post by CH...it described me a LOT! I am an IDEALIST when it comes to MY WORLD...I am not someone who thinks LIFE will be ideal, but MY PART OF IT, YES, that would be the desire for me, which is why people can seem like such an irritant to me.
-
Dear Gaining Strength,
I'm so glad you're finding some useful things at the Coping site. It's one I return to time and again, regularly, to glean some practical information about dealing with so many daily struggles. TEA is a concept that our pastor also applies to the practice of overcoming negative emotions, based on the fact that when they become troublesome, we can always trace those feelings back to some thought we nurtured. So... it always goes back to cleaning up that "stinkin thinkin" (renewing the mind)..
GS, I echo what Pennyplant and Jac have said to you here. Just hang on. All of this stuff which comes to the surface seems so threatening, but it's only deadly when it's hidden, buried. I like to think of it as a vampire exposed to the light of day... shriveling up and losing all power as the darkness fades. I've "felt" worse here, too, but God has sent some real pearls my way to encourage me to continue. Growth pains are very real and painful, but oh so necessary. Big hugs to you.
Jac,
.....the horrilble part is that the focus is outwards, on the needs of others, the need to assimilate rather than be an individual, and become accepting of yourself with all your flaws. I think logically, since this kind of thinking ascribes to "myself" (if I believe this way) the ability to assess and determine what others think, feel, - you know if I believe that I can judge others in this way, then I will mostly certainly believe that others can do this for me as well. I will be living my life according to what other's think and not according to what I think.
It is an impossible standard to live up to personally AND for everyone else.
Yes, this is what I gathered from it all, just as you say. For whatever reason, I seem to have always known that I would never be able to assimilate into "the group" as I've seen others do throughout my life. I believe that this sense of being an "oddball" was born as a result of witnessing blatant hypocrisy at home and in church/school, throughout my entire childhood. Any time I'd verbally question the disparity, the shame bucket would pour out its contents. None of these things were to be discussed, ever. Just swallow it all and quit trying to peek beneath the mask. Yes, it's an impossible standard for anyone and I see how pride and denial blended together form a surface more impenetrable than keflar. In my family, it was religious pride to the max that fed the lie and does still, to this day.
Stormy,
I get it. Yes, many of these ideals are the basis of the Golden Rule. But what I think this list is saying is that in living according to that Rule ourselves, we must not be influenced by the fact that others are or are not doing the same. The Rule applies to us alone, from that standpoint, and we will be able to prosper, find contentment, possess true joy and peace....only to the extent that we keep our eyes off the other guy and stop comparing ourselves to him. The moment we begin comparing, we begin reacting to others instead of proactively living our own lives. We choose to enter a realm where we may be either greatly lifted up by or victimized by another's (or our own!) adherence to the Rule or lack thereof. The thing about rules like this is that they are valid whether anyone's following them or not. The rule becomes the standard, not the behavior of others or even our own. I see this as a place from which grace and mercy can flow freely, as opposed to the rigid structure of overly high idealism, which imprisons the one who clenches it within his heart as though he can own it for himself.
Hope that makes sense.
Stormy, I'll print out the list along with your comments and take a more thorough look to see what I've missed... no doubt alot. Please don't ever regret expressing your thoughts on it here. That's how we all learn, I think, and come to a fuller understanding.
Teartracks,
Many thanks for the links. I'll have to look at them later today, lest I get off schedule ~ lol
Oh, there's another aspect of this I've run across that I want to investigate further as well, as it relates to the notion that giving must always be sacrificial.
Back later.
Love,
Hope
P.S. to Laura.... Exactly!!! And see.... are people supposed to be considered an "irritant" to us:? Not at all, right:? So what must we change in order to truly consider others better than ourselves? That's the whole point of this to me... if our "idealism" is preventing us from loving others as is right and good, then something needs adjusted.
-
Hi Stormy,
I certainly see your point about my colleague and "cheap grace."
But I already had found peace. For me, there is no additional price to pay...I feel as though I resolved it on my own. I just didn't feel like confronting her, because her inability or choice not to talk to me about what had happened actually suited me fine... I was just not interested in re-living it.
I forgave her for my own sake and without a lot of effort. I am not interested in spending any more energy on her because I will only be working there 8 more weeks, and as I suddenly saw she was not trustworthy, I am not interested in educating her to be accountable. I do believe it's her own conscience, such as it is, that caused her to want to "make nice."
On the other hand, it did occur to me in hindsight that she is very narcissistic...and I am not interested in any drama or intimate dialogue with her about what she said.
It may look from the outside like peace at any price, but from the inside, it just felt like peace in the way of detachment.
Make sense?
Hops
-
Hi Jac,
Thanks for thinking about it, and for your passion for justice!
Maybe it's hard to convey, but I am sure she doesn't feel I rolled over. There's a big contrast in my behavior. My actions around her are different. When I spoke to her, it was my own choice to be gracious, I wasn't groveling or telling her anything about herself ("You're off the hook!") at all. I was just acting in a way that felt dignified and right to me.
I feel no need to shame her, correct her or make her feel accountable. (Can't.)
Next time they'll do it again, to you, to anyone else. Until of course they've been given the message that it is not okay.
I'm sorry to say that I think this person is very N-ish and she will very likely do it again--to someone else. I don't think the message "it's not okay" has much effect unless you have power over such a person, and I don't. But I'm okay with how I handled it, honestly. (This may be a you-hadda-be-there kind of thing, but I behaved and felt differently -- neither hiding nor confronting -- and I felt quite strong.)
without ever saying, "No, it is not okay for you to treat me like this" , and "because you cannot acknowledge and forgive then we cannot have the same relationship we once might have had" in words or in substance?
I did it in substance, Jac. I'm not "playing her game" any more.
Another thing was how transparent she was...I had basically said No to her, so her icky sweetness vanished and spite came flashing out. It was so obvious to me I felt no anxiety to fix it -- because the person she said it to is very similar ("Snarkyboss" if old timers remember, the young N scientist one who sabotaged me there in the first place. No point.) Her face absolutely flamed when she realized I'd overheard. I honestly think it was worse for her than if I'd been emotional, that I kept my cool.
How she feels really isn't up to me. What I have done is warn a very sweet young new employee to set very firm boundaries with her. I've warned her about several issues there, because she's a great kid and I don't want her to be hurt.
I think I'm winding up my job there in my own way. Quietly, leaving excellent work behind. It's not been a nice place and I haven't been treated fairly. But if anyone wanted it to be otherwise, they had plenty of opportunity.
thanks for thinking about it with me, Jac.
Hops
-
Thanks Hops... I get it, now.
One thought did come to me, while I was reading your reply to jac.
What do you suppose would happen if... you treated your daughter the same way you've treated this woman? In terms of not playing 'the game', and at the same time - giving up any need to shame or correct her or make her feel accountable?
I was wondering this because you mentioned thinking about sending Hope's list to your D - it seems to me that your colleague and the Njerk boss are the ones who need it much, much more. But of course you can't send it to them; that's bridgeburning, and I understand that.
Funny, though, how we never think of bridges as existing between ourselves and the members of our own families. Yet they do. So I was just wondering.... what if...???????
Jac - :-) - Hope - ;-) ! [And Laura: 8)]
GS.... I have been where you are. Stay stubborn.... you will win through, if you stay stubborn... people don't realize that's will power, but it is, and sometimes it's the strongest kind. And we were given it for a reason.
I'm tired, not sure I'm making a lot of sense, gonna turn in early. Love you all. Love the ability to be myself here, tired, rambly, contrapositive, and all. ;-)
PS: jac: even better than the Nuremberg trials as a shining example of accountability, confession, atonement, forgiveness: the Truth Commission in South Africa, which investigated the crimes of apartheid - chaired by Archbishop Desmond Tutu... during the administration of President Nelson Mandela!!!
-
NIght, Stormy.
You're absolutely right about taking the same no-games stance with my D...and we're going to have a week vacation together, a house to ourselves out of town, soon. Chance to test out my new resolve.
R's death has had a big impact on me and it'll be a while before I understand it all. But I know some things, like controlling others, are a lot less interesting to me now. Her life inspired me.
Sleep tight,
Hops
-
Thanks, Jac. No offense taken whatsoever...
but you're right, you did detect some defensiveness.
That environment has been so hard to survive in, emotionally, (it's the coldest place I've ever worked...I've been there almost two years and noone except my one --N!-- friend there, who's now moved away, has ever so much as bought me a cup of coffee) -- that for me, just to be calm with this woman when she knew (and she knew I knew she knew) she was in the wrong, felt like I was beating on my own chest with a Tarzan yell!
I am confrontation-averse, though, you've definitely got my number. Do you know once in 7th grade a girl intentionally mocked me when all 40 kids in the class were gathered in the hall...then she slapped me across the face -- and I actually offered her the other cheek?
I did take my Sunday School lessons so to heart. It's been a very long struggle to try to find out how to keep the Golden Rule but stick up for myself at the same time. I think that's what you've perceived.
Hops
-
I was bullied too, in school. I've been bullied at work, as well. I've noticed something interesting: if you don't set boundaries with bullies, they stomp all over you. If you do set boundaries with them, they may try to stomp all over you in retaliation, and they may or may not be allowed to succeed [if the overall environment is abusive, then bullies are rewarded].
So what is the difference?
The difference is that in the second instance, you might be able to stop it. And you treat yourself as someone worth standing up for. Even if it costs you. Because if it's going to cost you either way, then, at least, the second way, you haven't colluded with your own abusers.
Hops: one of the things they tend to gloss in Sunday school is that He only stood and let them take Him at the end. Before that, He left; eluded them in the crowd; once even raged, in the temple. There is a time to turn the other cheek. Gandhi did it. King did it. Mandela did it. And there is a time not to turn the other cheek. Gandhi, King, Mandela likewise. The trick isn't just knowing when to and when not to - the trick is being able to figure it out on the ground, in the moment.
That is also a form of enlightenment.
-
Dear Pennyplant,
It's taking me alot longer to sift through this than I expected. Often when I post items like this, it's because I hear those same bells ringing, but I'm not sure from which direction the sound is coming. Sometimes the responses made on the thread will clarify that. In this instance, I've only come up with more questions, so it's all pretty much clear as mud.
My parents raised me with these beliefs also. In my case, it was all tied in with "religion" and "character" and "honor" and the whole bag of "old fashioned values". I still think they're good beliefs. What makes them irrational, I guess, is when they're overemphasized within an individual personality to the point that nothing and no one ever measures up.
You said: Even though I never really thought of myself as idealistic, I have experienced pretty much all of the negative effects of being overly-idealistic as they are listed here. It truly explains so much of the frustration of being me. Especially as a child. I always thought my parents knew better, afterall
Me, too. And to me, frustration is the key sign that these ideals are not serving their intended purpose. My parents were not "real" to me. More like icons. The disillusionment they inspired took alot of years and determined effort to shake off. They don't know any better. They're just like me. I'm not a failure because I couldn't/wouldn't wear their mask and pretend to know better, be better.
I believe that purging out the irrational thinking which leads to the extremism of these ideals is what frees us to see our selves for who we truly are, without that mask. For me, that means viewing myself as an empty-handed, needy child of God. There is no shame in that for me.
My parents' way brought nothing but shame.
Pennyplant, I think this is so good and wonderful:
it doesn't really seem unknown so much as something that just hasn't happened yet.
To me also it is this way. And Autumn is my favorite season, as well :) It is so... refreshing!
It makes all the difference in the world to me ... just knowing that you and others are finding some usefulness in these posts.
At this point in my life I feel very blessed to have the time and inclination to research and read and share. There is alot more to this picture, I see, and I think the doorway out of irrational thought patterns is about to get even a bit wider!
I hope you'll have a restful, refreshing weekend, Pennyplant.
Love,
Hope
-
Hi Pennyplant,
Just thinking of you and wondering how you're doing.
I'm considering reviewing the list of irrational thinking behind this form of extreme idealism with my husband and wondered whether you've shared with yours any of the thoughts that have come out of this discussion. In my marriage, I think this explains alot of what I'd previously viewed as values-differences between my husband and me. Now I'm seeing more and more that we truly do share more similar values than I'd thought, it's just that our expectations (of each other as well as others) vary. I really think alot of thesedifferences are based in the unreasonable ideals that I've carried for a lifetime. Unreasonable in that, as Jac said, these set up an impossible standard for everyone whose impacted by their unwritten presence. What do you think?
Have a wonderful Labor Day!
Love,
Hope
-
That environment has been so hard to survive in, emotionally, (it's the coldest place I've ever worked...I've been there almost two years and noone except my one --N!-- friend there, who's now moved away, has ever so much as bought me a cup of coffee) -- that for me, just to be calm with this woman when she knew (and she knew I knew she knew) she was in the wrong, felt like I was beating on my own chest with a Tarzan yell!
I'm very proud of you, Hops, for handling the situation in a way that left you feeling so good about yourself. I'm very glad it was a way that left "this woman" to know she was wrong and to know that you knew and still had such dignity about yourself. Meant to say this a couple of days ago, but have been pretty tired this week.
I am confrontation-averse, though, you've definitely got my number. Do you know once in 7th grade a girl intentionally mocked me when all 40 kids in the class were gathered in the hall...then she slapped me across the face -- and I actually offered her the other cheek?
I did take my Sunday School lessons so to heart. It's been a very long struggle to try to find out how to keep the Golden Rule but stick up for myself at the same time. I think that's what you've perceived.
Oh, Hopsy, I have been that little girl many times. In looking back, I believe there were no right responses to being treated so cruelly. We were given no tools to prevent "target-itis" and prevention is really the only solution. While it is probably true that few children escape being teased or otherwise embarrassed in front of peers, some of us drew special abuse to ourselves. For me, it stopped when I finally found the right adult who said the right thing to the perpetrators. Plus, I guess some of them just got bored with it or found other far more exciting pastimes such as drinking, drugs and hanging out in the park at night.
The thing is, you have principles. So many do not. It's never easy.
PP
-
This process of feelings are like waves of love ,acceptance and courage in the face of so much pain .
What has given me the understanding of the process of healing is I have been doing it all my life never ending healing
and then the understanding of the experience that has brought sadness and then whatever propels me into healing.
I am not as afraid of the pain as I once was and accept life as it comes and I find myself just glad to be.
Moon, this weekend my husband and I went to see "Quinceanera". By the end of the movie I was thinking of what you said here about waves of love, acceptance and courage in the face of so much pain. To me that was the main theme of the movie. Tio Tomas is my favorite character in the movie and he embodies this idea. If you get a chance to see it, I think you will see what I mean.
Pennyplant
-
Just weighting in on the "Turn the other cheek" concept, Hops.
Just one perspective - not THE perspective - Having wrestled with "turn the other cheek" especially when feeling abused or viciously attacked, I finally made sense of it as "turn the other cheek" when you are whole, in control able to forgive. Christ certainly did not mean this as a way to allow someone to commit a heinous crime. But I understand it in the framework of, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." He said tis when he was in controll (not of his life but) of his spiritual being. As a child, I was not in control, was not capable of being in control of my spiritual, emotional, physical development. But now as I overcome some of the scars of abuse I am gaining control for thee first time. Only now am I capable of turning the other cheek in SOME instances.
The golden rule is even more complex. Doing unto others it seems should be done not as the other prefers (e.g. drugs, alcohol) for as is best for them. But then who am I to know if what they want is really best. You can see where I'm going with this. It seems so clear on the surface but as I analyze it it becomes a tangled web unless I step back and treat another with kindness and caring.
Just talking my way out of darkness. No need to pay much attention. I am loving this space. Loving a place to connect. Loving a community after too many years of being so alone and so lonely. Thanks for listening.
Gaining Strength
-
I'm considering reviewing the list of irrational thinking behind this form of extreme idealism with my husband and wondered whether you've shared with yours any of the thoughts that have come out of this discussion. In my marriage, I think this explains alot of what I'd previously viewed as values-differences between my husband and me. Now I'm seeing more and more that we truly do share more similar values than I'd thought, it's just that our expectations (of each other as well as others) vary. I really think alot of thesedifferences are based in the unreasonable ideals that I've carried for a lifetime. Unreasonable in that, as Jac said, these set up an impossible standard for everyone whose impacted by their unwritten presence. What do you think?
Sometimes I'm just amazed that my husband and I have been able to stay together and actually be supportive of each other because he comes from an even more emotionally disabling background than I do. He received some good things that I did not, and I received some good things that he did not. But even so, you would think each of us would be so needy that we wouldn't be able to give to the other very well. But we've lasted all this time (since 1978, when we met just before out senior year of high school) and are now helping each other with the journey.
He sees me on-line every day and knows for sure that it is helping me. Mostly I tell him about some of the personalities here. And how I'm changing inside. I share with him my 3D life stories, too. The ones that brought me here in the first place. That has been hard for him to listen to since it involved another man. But he did it.
Now he is starting to feel safe to start removing some of the layers he has built over his own feelings all his life. He reminds me often just how hard this is for him to do. But he is doing it.
His style is quite different from mine. He doesn't like reading all that much except for sports and technical things. But he has picked up some of the things I do and have learned here. Like paying attention to dreams and journaling once in awhile. We will talk about general things that each of our families did and do.
I think that his family also had some excessive idealism in the mix. But there is also some very rough stuff in the background. Extreme poverty at times, child abandonment, one murder-suicide, severe alcoholism and child abuse. I often tell him, your parents performed a miracle in just not perpetuating all of the horrible stuff from their past. I tend to think each generation has a limit to how far they can progress when given so little to begin with. His brothers and sisters have all managed to grow up and have families of their own and find their way in the world to varying degrees. Some of them have more troubles than others. But in comparing these lives to what we know of the grandparents and great-parents, it is fairly impressive to me that any of them did well at all. They certainly weren't given all the tools they needed.
For me, I tend to think that the excessive idealism was, in my case, extremely naive. My parents were pretty clueless about most things. Very young, too. I do think these ideals are "sold" to us culturally. And how would fairly naive and sheltered people learn any differently? That's partly how I see my parents and my upbringing. I think they were also very frustrated that our lives didn't pan out in the promised ways. And when they tried to get help with my difficult sister, the only thing that really happened was they were blamed, especially my mother.
You're right, this topic does uncover a lot of stuff. It does get murky! But it's good to look at it. Nothing is ever easy, is it?
Pennyplant
-
Jac, Penny, Stormy, Gaining Strength:
Thank you so much. It is so comforting to find ready compassion and empathy for those tough childhood times, as an adult. That nail-biting little girl who kept trying to please thanks you. I especially appreciate your taking a close look at "turn the other cheek" and The Golden Rule. It's good to know they can be complex questions for others too.
The lingering legacy of those years of being tormented on the playground is probably very simple. Now and then with certain adults, usually a female, I see the same cruelty flashing. On occasion, someone will label me Outcast or Not Worthy, and act it out with symbolic back-turning. When we were children, it could have been verbal slashing or labeling or name-calling, cutting me down to size, or leaving me out of all play. I wonderfully friendly connections with most adults in my life now, but every now and then, someone will appear to sense that same old role I had back then (and probably accurately) -- my yearning to be included. And "disincluding" me is their way of experiencing power.
I've occasionally encountered other women, often bright competent and very verbal ones, who will react negatively to me. I think it may come out of competitive feelings. I may be feeding that negative interaction in some way I'm not aware of. As with the woman at work, who has a need to be the most in charge and most knowledgeable...I had always treated her with respect and sympathy. But I believe she felt a desire to put me down that actually had nothing to do with me. Perhaps her mother...
Once I see it, I can eventually let it go. With her, it's really not painful. I can do that more easily because shortly I have to have any ongoing contact with her.
Thanks again,
Hops and Little-Hops
-
Hi Pennyplant,
He sees me on-line every day and knows for sure that it is helping me. Mostly I tell him about some of the personalities here. And how I'm changing inside. I share with him my 3D life stories, too.
Thank you for telling me this. I do the same with my husband and it's amazing how this opens up new doorways of communication.
I was wondering whether you do this also, because I see it as such a positive force toward staying in step with each other's grow within marriage. Your husband sounds like a courageous man to me, and a very determined one. I think mine has these qualities, as well and I'm very thankful.
I tend to think each generation has a limit to how far they can progress when given so little to begin with.
I think I disagree with this...it seems to me that many of our limitations are self-imposed and founded on unrealistic fear, in the same way that irrational thoughts can lead to the pursuit of unreasonable ideals. I am quite convinced that an entirely new beginning is possible for those who are willing to forgive and release all blame.
Much like your mother received blame when seeking help for your sister, I can see that there's a very real risk for those who have been victims of abuse to settle for less than total restoration when the blame and shame game becomes all too familiar and cozy. It helps me alot to put things into balance when I remember that I myself was not an angelic, holy child, nor have I been a faultless, ever-wise parent. I have both sympathy and empathy for my parents and for myself, but I am more than ready to grow up and leave the shame and blame behind.
Love,
Hope