Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: WRITE on October 07, 2006, 10:09:23 AM
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One of the feelings that has surfaced this week isn't that big, compared to others, but it's something I have too often choked down because there was bigger stuff going on.
Disappointment. Little examples:
over the past few weeks the guy I had the crush on hurt my feelings when he let me down for about the 3 rd time in as many weeks by being unreliable and a bit inconsiderate- we seem unable to comunicate;
I realised my neighbour who I thought we were close hadn't made any time for me in months;
I was at a party and the person said come over next week etc then when I called her she had no recollection of the invite- I guess she must have been a bit drunk not being genuinely friendly- and I felt a bit of an idiot;
my sister I just got off the phone with I was telling her something about my work and she went silent and did that passive aggressive thing- I respond now with 'ok I'll let you go' immediately and she usually continues the conversation at that point, but I still have absolutely no idea why she does it and asking her directly she denies doing it;
my good friend invited me to meet his brothers and spend the weekend with them and still hasn't called me to set up the details, though I keep telling my childless friends I can't just drop everything and run out like they can.
None of it's major stuff, and I won't fall apart because of it but I am often getting a sense of disappointment lately:
why are people so unreliable?
why do people say things they don't mean?
why does it feel like when the person eventually reciprocates it's a bit late?
Like- my neighbour did call and come over eventually this week, and we had a nice chat, but she told me about all the times she's been out with other friends over the past few weeks so it's not just she's been so busy and suddenly I feel a bit hurt....and even though I know in my heart she's just embarassed at having been leaning on us financially and getting in tons of debt, and it's not about me, I still feel a bit rejected somehow.
Do you think I am just triggering residual feelings about other stuff?
When my firend called me 'leery' this week it made me realise I don't really trust in other people to be reliable or consistent, and I am creating this life where I don't have to rely on anyone because deep down I don't trust anyone.
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((((((Write))))))
I think you are conscientious and thoughtful and many folks are not, so you're bound to be disappointed regularly. That doesn't have to be a curse at all, though! When we notice these disparities within relationships, we find plenty of opportunities to exercise forgiveness, that's for sure. There's always so much to simply let go... and you're in the process right now of letting go so much already... sometimes it seems like there's bound to be a "last straw". There need not be, though... not when there's grace for the day. Can't store up that grace, I've found... has to be refreshed every morning. Thankfully, it is, when we go to the Source. Remember the manna in the desert? The children of Israel tried to gather a reserve, so that they could take a day off from gathering. The stuff went spoiled. Grace is that way, I think. You've got loads of it each day... I have seen it.
And this stuff isn't residual, I don't think... it's current, daily, a thirst... and a challenge to continue returning to the wellspring.
You are a lovely woman, Write, with a great heart which refuses to be hardened. That, in and of itself, is a great gift.
This will pass.
More big hugs,
Hope
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Hon, you need a new set of people, these old ones are all broken and messed up.
Only half joking, actually. Have you read "Safe People" by Cloud and Townsend?
Safe people exist. They're not perfect, but they tend to be reliable in the opposite direction. Right now you have people who reliably let you down. You need people who reliably care enough to try not to do that.
((((((((((Write))))))))))
PS there aren't as many of them, but they make up in quality for what they lack in quantity. Big time.
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Hi WRITE,
I don't have any advice to offer. But I experience people in the same way. Sometimes people will even confide in me that others are hurting their feelings doing these types of things--and this person has done exactly the same to me!!! And I'll think, do you hear yourself? If it hurts you, don't you think the same treatment hurts me, too? I'm sure they don't even make the connection.
For me, it's very hard to not feel hurt that I'm always "B" list. It has been this way most of my life, though, for various reasons. I'm working on just being good to me for now and developing my own insides. If a better inner me doesn't eventually lead to better relationships with people who value me more, then I guess I'll just have to be content with what I've got--good family, good home, etc. I've spent so much energy all my life worrying about just this issue and not really coming up with a solution. Time to let it go, for me anyway. I will never be so desperate that I want to cling to people who don't value me. I would just like to get to the point where I think of it as their loss, not mine. Still feeling a little sorry for myself and thinking it is my loss. But definitely working on that part of it.
I think in your case, it is definitely their loss, not yours. If they can't see how great you are, they are just very limited people. WRITE, if you were my neighbor, I'd enjoy your company very much. I mean that. I hope the next real, good friend is just around the corner for you. For all of us, actually!!
So, I don't have much in the way of answers, but you sure aren't the only one experiencing this side of life. Others wonder about many of the same things you do. It's just not all that easy.
Pennyplant
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WRITE, the following are your words and my comments. I did the best I could to sound diplomatic and respectful, but also gave some advice according to what has worked for me personally. If it helps, great. If it causes anger, that was not my intention at all, so please forgive me. If you can use some of it, go ahead but if not, throw out what you do not like. Just trying to help.
WRITE: One of the feelings that has surfaced this week isn't that big, compared to others, but it's something I have too often choked down because there was bigger stuff going on.
Disappointment. Little examples:
over the past few weeks the guy I had the crush on hurt my feelings when he let me down for about the 3 rd time in as many weeks by being unreliable and a bit inconsiderate- we seem unable to comunicate;
Communication is the most important part of any kind of relationship with anyone. If that is lacking, you are not "relating" and there is no relationship. If you are not able to go to this man directly, using an "When you do ______________, I feel __________ and I need you to _____________,' then there is a problem.
I realised my neighbour who I thought we were close hadn't made any time for me in months;
Again, this is going to require confrontation with "I feel" statements, on your part. My opinion.
I was at a party and the person said come over next week etc then when I called her she had no recollection of the invite- I guess she must have been a bit drunk not being genuinely friendly- and I felt a bit of an idiot;
Ok, now here I am concerned. Why did YOU feel like an idiot here? It was the lady who was getting drunk and then making plans she couldn't remember nor keep. That's ON HER, not YOUR FAULT.
my sister I just got off the phone with I was telling her something about my work and she went silent and did that passive aggressive thing- I respond now with 'ok I'll let you go' immediately and she usually continues the conversation at that point, but I still have absolutely no idea why she does it and asking her directly she denies doing it;
Yep, I just want to tell you I understand this one. These people that do this, are enough to drive you BONKERS! Just remember, consider the source, and realize that THEY are the one exhibiting the issues, not you. Love them in spite of themselves, and find someone else to talk to, who is able to listen and give positive feedback or just at least their attention. Believe that you deserve BETTER and expect that from "normal" people.
my good friend invited me to meet his brothers and spend the weekend with them and still hasn't called me to set up the details, though I keep telling my childless friends I can't just drop everything and run out like they can.
Sounds like you are good at setting and expressing boundaries. If this friend continues to invite you and not give you enough time to plan, you might consider saying something like this, " Sally, I really appreciate that you invited me to come meet your brothers and spend the weekend with you. In order to be sure I have the time and am prepared, I'll need advance notice. If you don't let me know by ____________ (time, day), I'm sorry but I will have not have made plans and will not be able to join you. Please let me know by _____________ ( state time, day again), so we'll be able to get together for this outing. Thank you so much for your understanding (or, as I once saw put, "thank you for your ANTICIPATED COOPERATION"
None of it's major stuff, and I won't fall apart because of it but I am often getting a sense of disappointment lately:
why are people so unreliable?
My guess...because they are human beings.
why do people say things they don't mean?
Many reasons...unstable past experiences, because they are just cruel people, because they forget what they told you from one moment to the next, because they do not respect your boundaries, since they usually have none of their own, because they have mental issues...the list could go on.
why does it feel like when the person eventually reciprocates it's a bit late?
I believe this comes from a sense of BETRAYAL. It could be a trigger from other events in your life. I know it might make ya want to say "ok, now just FORGET IT! It took you THIS LONG to finally let me know, SCREW YOU!!!" The best thing to do though, in my view, is to simply re-state your boundaries with a logical consequence, keeping in mind that you are often dealing with "adult-children" who have not gotten the message that their are consequences for their behaviors.
Like- my neighbour did call and come over eventually this week, and we had a nice chat, but she told me about all the times she's been out with other friends over the past few weeks so it's not just she's been so busy and suddenly I feel a bit hurt....and even though I know in my heart she's just embarassed at having been leaning on us financially and getting in tons of debt, and it's not about me, I still feel a bit rejected somehow.
Oh gosh! I want to point out something you said that will answer your question for ya....your neighbor:
1.) made excuses instead of apologizing
2.) went on and on about spending time with OTHERS (when it was YOU she needed to be getting in contact with)
Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't that sort of make you think "gosh, she sure had time for THEM, but has NONE for ME." THAT, I believe is why you might feel "a bit" rejected.
Do you think I am just triggering residual feelings about other stuff?
Well, could be, but again, I think just from that exact incident, you could have felt rejected, by hearing her go on about all the OTHERS she TOOK time for. Honestly, I am the type of person who would CALL her on it....I'd say something like, "hmmm, it does seem that you have been busy. The thing is, I'm kind of interested...I was waiting to hear from you and spend time with you, yet you managed to make time for others. I am feeling insignificant in your life because of this. (Again, repeat the original boundary to her)
When my firend called me 'leery' this week it made me realise I don't really trust in other people to be reliable or consistent, and I am creating this life where I don't have to rely on anyone because deep down I don't trust anyone.
WRITE, it makes total sense to me. When people repeatedly disappoint you, you tend to throw up walls and say WHO NEEDS YA! I AM FINE ON MY OWN. The thing to remember is this...even though we think we do not need others, we really do. There are people in this world who are good people. When you found some that are not, it's time to look elsewhere and inward, but do not classify all people as all bad, because it's just not true.
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((((((((((((((Write)))))))))))))))))
I know exactly how it feels to be so sensitive to rejection, or namby-pamby friendship.
It's about loneliness, for me anyway...
I know how hard it is to feel I'm "needy" for friendship. But I've gotten more accepting of it.
It takes truly generous hearts to befriend people who are going through a vulnerable time and sense it, and not sum up the one who's in need as less than because of it.
IMO, you're NOT "less than" if you're feeling vulnerable and truly needing people to show more commimtent and enthusiasm about time with you. The thing is, I do think it's because of the transition you're going through...probably not that they're intentionally letting you down.
I agree with RMthat it won't hurt at all to be honest about how you feel--just don't be ashamed.
Nothing wrong with saying I am feeling vulnerable and lonely in this period of my life, so please don't mention getting together if you don't really plan to follow up. Another time I might roll with it, but not now. Thanks.
There I go writing dialogue, which you hardly need. But I do understand, a lot.
(((((((Write))))))
Hops
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Hi Write,
I hear you. I constantly struggle with this type of situation and the mesages I tell myself as a result. BTW, the messagfes coming from me are worse than any I get from others, which are generally ambiguous.
My best solution is to give people the benefit of the doubt. This stops me from listening to that nasty old tape again. I know that in my life I have let some people down or forgotten what I said or been flaky. And I know that in most cases, it was all me, and nothing at all about them.
So, please try to tell yourself that. Is it correct in all cases? No. Will it set boundaries where they eventually need to be set? No. Will it take away some of your bad self-talk and your pain? I think so.
Plucky
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Thanks everyone, will think about all you've said.
I wonder sometimes if it's not the bipolar- I seem to be on a different time schedule to everyone else, I have tons of energy and since I've been getting more organised it always feels like I am waiting on someone else. But I know often I just don't give people enough time to reciprocate.
What resonates most is what Plucky advises
My best solution is to give people the benefit of the doubt.......Is it correct in all cases? No. Will it set boundaries where they eventually need to be set? No. Will it take away some of your bad self-talk and your pain? I think so.
Tonight I went to a concert, my friend didn't show with his brother, I was $20 out of pocket on their tickets, and feeling pretty sorry for myself. The music distracted me but I was still feeling lonely and wretched when they appeared during the intermission, because they were late they'd been seated somewhere else but the lady at the box office had given them the tickets and they gave me the money. They were delighted to see me, and when i thought about it this friend has never on any occasion been anything other than truly reciprocal, he's one of my closest friends!
I felt I was wallowing a bit, enjoying feeling sorry for myself!
The disappointment is a trigger for an old pattern of thinking I think- that people can't be trusted. I think I may need to go back into therapy for this, I keep saying I want close relationships, and I do have close relationships, but there's a part of me is really afraid about the prospect of a close love relationship.
the messagfes coming from me are worse than any I get from others, which are generally ambiguous.
I know I am giving out strange messages to the guys who approach me, my friend is spot on with leery...
I wonder what it is? Fear of sex?
I've always wondered if there wasn't more to my accepting this sexless marriage for so long and never having affairs or only emotional affairs, and when I've been single never getting involved with anyone who was truly emotionally available.
Has anyone else gone as long as this without any real sex life within a relationship? It feels so scary to be so vulnerable by being emotionally involved and sexual at the same time.
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Yes, Write. Oh yes.
I allowed my 2nd marriage to go on for 5 sexless years.
(Basically, I wept upstairs in an attic bedroom while he stayed mum. After the first 2 years of this, he offhandedly said, well, it's my problem not you...I did the same with my first wife and a fiancee...)
It was devastating.
My sexual self-esteem was shaky anyway, as lots of weird vibes and repression had had their effect...and this rejection drove it into splinters.
I've had very very long periods of celibacy. My entire 40s, with a meaningless exception or two.
Almost two years now...and I'm tiring of it.
I do feel I'm healthier now. Not perfectly whole, but that's an abstraction. I may be gradually getting ready to reach out again. No rush, but just a sense of that...
You're not alone and you're not weird either.
I hear that many people simply flower into joy in middle age and well beyond...so we've got time!
Hops
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Ditto write and hoppy,
the thing is, I'm just not interested. It feels too intimate to do anything of the sort right now. If it's scary, don't do it, that's my philosophy. The other thing is, whenever I think I might start to get interested in thinking about getting interested in considering it, I see another one of those herpes adverts on television. Yuck!
There are lots of people who just don't. It's an option, either temporarily or permanently.
Plucky
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Are we all insomniac tonight ( and is it lack of sex- smile )
Thanks, I really need some reassurance lately about this. It's so hard to talk about honestly, people look at you like you're mad if they have been having regular sex, and don't want to talk about it at all if they have problems.
What I really fantasy about is being held before I go to sleep, I have only done that once with this one night stand guy, it makes me want to cry when I think of how tender he was, and I fell asleep sitting up leaning into him and he was half asleep and stroking the inside of my knee for hours...I wouldn't see him again either!
he offhandedly said, well, it's my problem not you
horrible isn't it, when someone says that, not 'I have a problem which is deeply affecting youand i am sorry and want to put it right...'
I feel like my ex is still pulling my strings a bit because I am too afraid of his reaction if I start dating too, so that's something I will prepare to be assertive about.
we've got time!
for me anything which isn't happening in the next two hours might as well be forever away! I'm exaggerating...only slightly though.
Off to look for off-putting herpes commercials as Plucky suggests!
Goodnight everyone. Thank You((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Write, Hops and Plucky,
After a mostly sexless marriage for 20+ years, I am a testament to the flowering into middle age and finding more joy than I thought was possible. Of course, it does require finding the right partner and he doesn't even have to be in his 20's in order to keep up. 8) I sort of feel like someone flipped a switch and I could never go back to the way I lived in my marriage. I know now that intimacy will have to be a big part of any future long-term relationship.
Brigid
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Brigid,
I swear you're Hope on a Harley.
THANK YOU! :D
(((((((Brigid the Middle-Aged BABE))))))))
You are a complete woman, you know.
Even with your fledgling flying.
It's your turn!
Hops
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hi write,
why are people so unreliable?
why do people say things they don't mean?
why does it feel like when the person eventually reciprocates it's a bit late?
I've thought about this a lot. And unfortunately, I think it's cause we're socialized to be self-centered. Also, it's "weird" to be sitting around by our phone, waiting for that person who said they'd call us to call (shouldn't it be weird that they're not calling when they said they would? I think so!)
I remember having the most relaible friends in childhood. Funny thing is - I pushed them away. But much later, when I was a teen. I had friends that were loyal to me from grade school until highschool... now, I can't get someone to keep a lunch date with me, even though everytime I see them at a party they insist we do this. What's up with that?
I have no idea, but I think we're just all too busy checking our cell phones and IM's, rushing from store to store, arranging parties & going to parties (the "A" scene, like PP said), but not really listening. In other words, we're keeping ourselves so extraordinarily busy, we don't have time for good old fashioned proper courtesy and respect anymore. I'd like to move to a small town for this reason. Maybe in a time warp, people would be more true to their word. :wink:
I feel this too. And I don't know what to do about it. I had to laugh PP, when you mentioned being "b-listed" as I had a good friend at my previous job (she sat next to me) who used to complain cause I was "a-list" and she was "b-list." She used to say "the only way for me to get to go to a party is to throw one myself!" I guess the funny thing is, I wished the b-list people would notice me. I liked them, they appeared calmer, safer to me. A lot of times, I wished those pesky a-list people would just go away!!! too much drama for me. I guess I attract it though :(
Perhaps the way to get more b-list friends is to listen? Really listen, and not expect listening in return. This used to come naturally to me when I was a kid. Somewhere along the way, into adulthood, I've forgotten...
bean
p.s. not touching the sex comments :wink: well, OK, I will say that feeling sexless is probably pretty normal. I don't know though, I'm only in my 30's!
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Hope on a Harley
that's it, I'll get a bike! :)
Funny thing is - I pushed them away.
I've been doing this a lot lately, I think I am afraid of becoming responsible for anyone, overinvolved, like I feel I have with my ex.
And I've been desperate to be 'independent' lately, and not shown much of my soft side.
Well last night another strange thing. Went to a concert, crush guy was there at first it looked like with someone else, and I felt quite hurt. Then afterwards there was a buffet and he was actually alone ( shows how warped I am the lady I thought he was with was an older lady nothing to do with him! ) and we hung out for an hour or so until I had to go collect my son and had a really fun chat then he asked me to go for coffee tonight.
At which point I started wittering and being a bit weird, so maybe my friend is right and I am not ready, or I'm too leery...but I said yes and I'm going to go and try to be aware of what is going on with me/ him/ us.
We clearly like each other, but I suspect I scare the heck out of men once they get too close.
I've also started to pay attention again to who is supportive in my life and reliable and to keep my daily thankfulness journal which had dropped off.
I'd like to move to a small town for this reason. Maybe in a time warp, people would be more true to their word.
small town can be hard to fit in sometimes though, I remember one of my friends wailing 'I've been here 5 years and the only friend who visits me is you'- I was 80 miles away and she just had her second baby and got little or no support from her neighbours and friends.
Maybe in a time warp, people would be more true to their word
probably not, it can be incredibly pretty though!
Here's some strength for today Bean ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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well, I don't know if it was the right things do to or not. It felt quite good, much better than not saying anything:
We had a lovely time as usual, crush guy and I, but at the end of the evening I told him I don't do non-reciprocal relationships, I really like him but he has not responded enough and that the ball is in his court ( G_d did I really use that naff phrase. Aaaaaaaaaaagh! )
He said 'I will try to make more of an effort' and I said ' it's your choice' and gave him a hug and left.
I actually don't mind if he does or he doesn't at this point, I think I'm going to be fine either way.
Who is this woman and what happened to her?!
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((((((Write)))))) doing so good! :D
Question time (does it bore you sometimes when I do this?)
( G_d did I really use that naff phrase. Aaaaaaaaaaagh! )
which one??????? :? (seriously):
this one?:
I told him I don't do non-reciprocal relationships, I really like him but he has not responded enough
Or this one?
and that the ball is in his court
I’m thinking if this was me (being the guy here m’am 8)), I’d think “what does non-reciprocal mean here? How haven’t I responded enough? What’s missing? Help, where’s the How To guide, numbered, with diagrams?”
He said 'I will try to make more of an effort' and I said ' it's your choice' and gave him a hug and left
Help! <panic> What did I say? How do I make more of an effort? What does Write want? What do I want? Is it the same? I don’t know, I’m just a guy, I feel like going into my garage and taking something apart just to see how it works!
(I have a fair chunk of what’s called male brain, apparently :roll:.) So please tell me what it is! I’m a guy, I’m confused...
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Write,
Portia's male brain is right here. Guys don't think like we do. He probably doesn't at all see that he is not doing his part. I have found that spending some time reading about the differences between men and women--how they feel about relationships, raising children, communication, etc.,--has helped me to not have unrealistic expectations about how they react to me or our relationship. It has also helped to not take things personally, when in the past, I certainly would have.
This is not to say that you shouldn't have high standards for how men treat you, but you need to be realistic about what they are capable of. To any men reading this, I am not suggesting that you are neanderthals, but just that our brains have different patterns (that is probably just a nice way of saying you are neanderthals :?).
Brigid
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:D Brigid, we're just focussed and objective-driven and need really specific, simple instructions sometimes... a book called "these things women call relationships - explained" might help. I mean, isn't a relationship where you do stuff together that you both enjoy, you make food together and share a place to live (oh and sex is quite good too) and it's all really practical and works well? Is there more?
(Maybe this is more INTJ than male, to be fair to men here. :?)
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I agree with everybody that clear communication helps.
But I think it was healthy of you to say, I don't do nonreciprocal relationships.
I think the issue wasn't so much what HE was not doing (or not bothering to do)...but what YOU were choosing to do...
You made a statement for yourself. A boundary for yourself. That you are choosing not to "do" a relationship that doesn't feel warm and connected enough for you. I think that's good.
I understand why he may go into the garage with Portia to work on Brigid's Harley, but don't feel bad about trying to set a healthy boundary around your heart in the best way you knew how at the moment, Write.
I think eventually what might "fall away" in your negotiations in a future relationship (all relationships involve them) will be the part where it's dependent on a man "catching on" to a basic level of necessary enthusiasm that has to be explained to him. You are capable of that enthusiasm for intimacy and commitment. You might have been going after it a little too soon with this fellow, but you have the heart for it.
It will still be there when the wheel has spun another round or two. Meanwhile, I think it's lovely that you got a sense of what that feels like...to set limits for yourself, and feel whole afterward.
Dance lessons always involve stumbling. Ain't nobody tangoed like Robert Duvall the first time or two.
(((((((Write)))))))
Hops
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Thanks y'all.
No, he knows exactly what he does that I don't like about what he's doing: enjoying the things I write to him without being bothered to write back, being unreliable about making/keeping arrangements and wanting all his own way- he is quite a catch and seems to know it and whilst being too nice to really play the field he gets plenty of attention from women and I suspect doesn't feel he has to try too hard.
Well he does if he wants a closer relationship with me!
I can be more specific with him of course! but the real fact is he has to want to plus be able to find out what I want for myself....(not easy since I am only just realising what I want) and he needs to know what he himself wants too. Wow that was a mouthful!
you are choosing not to "do" a relationship that doesn't feel warm and connected enough for you.
thanks Hops. You know, we are connected, just some communication problems and shyness and neither of us being entirely certain what we're doing right now I think.
And I am still married. I guess I would have handled things differently if I wasn't but I am.
tell me what it is! I’m a guy, I’m confused...
Portia is a guy? Missed that one.
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Hi Write
I have all the female bits, so I qualify as female, even if my brain registers a male bent (were you really confused?). Glad to clarify that one!
Hey this chap:
enjoying the things I write to him without being bothered to write back, being unreliable about making/keeping arrangements and wanting all his own way- he is quite a catch and seems to know it and whilst being too nice to really play the field he gets plenty of attention from women and I suspect doesn't feel he has to try too hard.
Sounds to me like he wants a mommy; someone who caters for his wishes and who he doesn’t have to reciprocate with. Unconditional love? I don’t know. Everything you’ve said above is red flags for me; he sounds unavailable (available only to himself?).
Quite a catch – I remember Bunny using this phrase and I’ve never understood it. Do men need catching? Are women hunters? This is my incomprehension of the way the world works. I’m interested in other people, but I don’t see them as potential …partners as such. If I’ve got together with someone, it feels like it’s happened by accident and I can’t say I’ve harboured long-term plans….my relationships have evolved by mutual consent and negotiation. But then I’ve never had expectations – not sure that qualifies as healthy or not. :?
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Hi Write...
Quoting myself here, just thought I maybe hadn't been clear.
You might have been going after it a little too soon with this fellow, but you have the heart for it.
It [your capacity for love and intimacy, not necessarily a specific partner] will still be there when the wheel has spun another round or two
Glad you're taking a break if that's feeling right to you.
I know it must be lonely and a little scary to be feeling the reality of Ms. Not-Married coming at you, since it's been so many years. I have complete faith you are going to be okay, and happier.
xxoo,
Hops
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Sounds to me like he wants a mommy
or I should have had more kids ( smile )
I don't know Portia, and I can't see me seeing him again so I think it's about done.
When we go out it is good, we have a great time. But I turned him down and I still can't leap into his arms and I guess the male ego doesn't cope very well with that even if there's a perfectly grown-up explanation. Plus he has his own needs- he wants to be in a relationship. And I'm hardly available am I.
If I’ve got together with someone, it feels like it’s happened by accident and I can’t say I’ve harboured long-term plans….
it's tricky Portia.
If I didn't think someone had relationship potential I wouldn't get to know them better on this level, a friendship can develop over months and years. With a romance it has a different momentum unless both of you are going to date several people simultaneously.
This was a friendship, he didn't know I wasn't divorced, I didn't know I would develop feelings for him.
What's becoming obvious to me is I need to be out of this right now.
The timing's off and no matter how well I get on with him it's not going to work out whilst I am still married to someone else. It's not like my marriage is very normal either- my ex is quite likely to act out pretty badly if he doesn't like what is happening.
I should not have seen this guy again after my feelings went beyond friends, I'm just messing with myself and him.
My first thought when I woke up this morning was 'I don't need this' as in I have enough going on right now.
I feel like an idiot for even thinking about a romance whilst trying to divorce my difficult husband. Like I can afford to take my eye off things for a minute...though he's doing pretty well and has detached from me right now we all know what will happen if he starts to feel he's being slighted.
Unconditional love? I don’t know
yes you have to be careful with that too- sometimes loving someone unconditionally is just an excuse to do the things you want to without asking their permission or waiting for their comfort level. I'm a very loving person and I know from what people tell me I can be overpowering. And I do really love the people I love, but my instinct tells me other people are much more reluctant to commit than I am ( maybe I'm impetuous- expecially with romance, it's hardly like I have an incredible track record...)
I need to back off and let things settle down in so many ways.
I've decided to suggest to my ex that we formalise our financial child support arrangements and sign a document with a notary prior to filing for divorce. And I want to file for divorce by the end of the year so I have some stuff to get on track for that. It's dragged out long enough and I think is what is making me anxious now really, not whether a new relationship is a good idea ( which it isn't )
I'm so caught up in so many emotions right now, it's hard to make big decisions or even little ones, I need to focus.
But then I’ve never had expectations – not sure that qualifies as healthy or not
what works for one person may not do it for another.
I have a lot of expectations for myself, and someone else is going to have to fit in the picture differently now.
I really want to fulfill my career and creative abilities Portia. I've spent my whole life subjugating that to my marriage and family and now like someone said my wings are loose and I want to fly.
A love relationship is just two people lining their lives up with each other, and everything about my life is telling me that's impossible for me right now:
10 year old son
NPD ex
not divorced
I have to manage Bipolar 1
me wanting other acheivements
I'm lonely and I ache for someone to be in a special relationship with but I can't escape all these other factors.They're part of the fabric of my life and experience tells me most people aren't going to understand.
People don't understand who have known all this for some time; how is a new person going to fit in?
If I can get used to being lonely ( you'd think I would be used to it! ) maybe I will stop doing this, having expectations which I suspect are just pipe dreams.
It's no use me trying to be like everyone else- I'm not, my life isn't, I've already screwed up one relationship after another in trying to be 'normal'.
It's probably time for me to accept I have to be alone, and to find other ways to put the creativity to work for me.
Maybe later I'll meet someone but it's not going to work now.
I just typed all this and as so often happens Hops posts and reminds me what she said yesterday
You might have been going after it a little too soon with this fellow, but you have the heart for it.
It [your capacity for love and intimacy, not necessarily a specific partner] will still be there when the wheel has spun another round or two
yup, I don't need to confuse loneliness with readiness.
Thanks Brigid Bean Portia Hops.
I think I am moving forward ( with a heck of a lot of tears- but not as many as if I make a play for this guy and get any more involved ) just not in a very linear fashion...
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Hi Write, thank you for your reply.
I don’t envy your being caught up in emotions (sounds scary to me) but the fact that you wake and see clearly – that you don’t need this right now – shows you how much control you’ve taken (which would feel good to me, you?).
Your post reads clearly too and this, may I repeat it:
I've decided to suggest to my ex that we formalise our financial child support arrangements and sign a document with a notary prior to filing for divorce. And I want to file for divorce by the end of the year so I have some stuff to get on track for that. It's dragged out long enough and I think is what is making me anxious now really, not whether a new relationship is a good idea ( which it isn't )
about 10 / 11 weeks to get to filing? Focus can be good!
And after 12 weeks or so? At least one thing will be off your list and a change will occur. Maybe you’ll feel differently – for the better I hope – too.
Ignore my other posts on relationships please! It sounds to me as though you’re reaching the point of action and decision, definitely moving forward.
It can be so lonely with another person – worse than being lonely, alone, I think.
(((((((((((((write)))))))))))))))
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Ignore my other posts on relationships please!
never!
You often get me focussed, maybe it's because we have the same background and you know why I have some of these weird 'don't be a nuisance' things which were drilled into us.
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I am scared- there's so much to decide on my own now. I really am quite alone- it's up to me what I do with my life! which is heady some days, lonely others....
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I feel like an idiot for even thinking about a romance whilst trying to divorce my difficult husband.
Write, hon...stop beating up on our friend Write! My thought is when is it MORE normal to be thinking about romance, than when you're coming out of the desert of a painful difficult marriage? (I completely understand, times two.) You've done SAINTLY things toward your ex, who even abused you physically at one point. You are a GOOD person without an ounce of idiot in you.
You are going through NORMAL fear, yearning and all the rest.
I so get the lonely (as well as the yearnings to be held and comforted and reassured). Right in the middle of and after divorce is one of the toughest times. Don't lose faith...I swear, you are building a new life.
Right now you can only see a couple bricks. Seek out all the support you can find and breathe through the fears. Have faith...your new life will take shape and shelter you. We will too!
(((((Write))))
Hops
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when is it MORE normal to be thinking about romance, than when you're coming out of the desert of a painful difficult marriage?
you know I said just earlier, it's a distraction, and borrowing the energy from one situation to try and fuel another...
I do really think I have to stop though. In a few weeks time I'll be able to see more clearly, I know it.
Have faith...your new life will take shape and shelter you. We will too!
for an atheist ( or was it agnostic ) you have a lot of G_d in you Hops!
That's exactly where I need to be- leaning on those who love me, and especially G_d. Reminder after reminder has come on this all week.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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interesting little piece of N-sabotage this week. You remember as part of my practical arrangements I switched electricity into my name to start a credit rating.
Guess who forgot to send in his half of the last joint bill this month- unheard of! I'm pretty sure it's not deliberate or being mean either, but it's a reminder to be careful with Nism, their emotions really do take over everything. It's like an emotional cancer drawing its blood supply from where it can.
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Hi Write,
maybe I am a closet male too...but I just think too much thought is going into all this.
The fact is that while you can be deep, this is a shallow relationship with the crush guy. And that can be a good thing!
Can you compartmentalise, so that you can carry on with him in a detached, kind of surface way, which is deliciously distracting, while at the same time getting the sitch with ex sorted?
I mean, if he is a catch, and I for one am old enough to know what that means, (you young ones - he's hot) and he is interested but needs some management, which can be provided simply by being somewhat preoccupied and unavailable, then, if you can do it, why not!
Plucky
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Hi Plucky. Thanks.
Can you compartmentalise
not good at this Plucky! Wish I could but I'm very intense, worse since I lived in the US where the superficiality gets on my nerves.
I think I have everything straight in my head- my main concern is getting involved with anyone and throwing my ex off track with the divorce etc...if I thought this was 'the real thing' type thing I would probably take the risk, but not for this very casual relationship.
needs some management, which can be provided simply by being somewhat preoccupied and unavailable
I have a lot of nice guy and women friends, I am going to spend lots of time with them. I'm having lovely times with them and it's keeping me afloat better than trying to decipher one cute guy who is giving me no feedback or relationship. I really need a lot of love right now- and y'all were right, when I let down my defences and told people they have been so caring.
I am so lucky.
As for cute crush guy- he'll keep :)
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I've so far all my life been incapable of carrying on in a detached, lighthearted way with men I'm very attracted to. For me (finally) if it ain't reciprocal, I'm outta there.
Once in a relationship and during the wooing, I love laughing together more than anything. But if there's a laarger-than-reasonable risk of being taken advantage of or dumped, I'd rather laugh with my friends.
Off to use my new blue shampoo. Gives me halogen hair.
Check in later...glorious day to all of you...
love,
Hops
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I know I am too serious sometimes, so I tried it, shot him a light-hearted email about church, but it's just made me really anxious all evening, I kept looking to see if he'd replied ( he hasn't ) and second-guessing myself. Basically it makes me feel insecure to deal with the ambivalence and being disregarded. It's a lot easier to cut off hoping he'll respond how I'd like and write it off to experience and move on.
It's also another habit I want to break, this trying to salvage/save relationships. It's not that I want to write people off, it's just I want to learn to relax and if the person is going to come around they'll do it in their own time and I don't always have to facilitate it. I see it as an example of me being a bit controlling.
So anyway, I guess no, I can't do detached well and it's unbalanced my overall response to the day, it's not I feel unloved or unappreciated overall but because he hasn't responded I'm feeling both those things. And I got two notes this week from other guys and a call from my Buddhist friend, I've had lunch and dinner with three great friends, and a book signed by John Updike belated for my birthday a few weeks ago- longest birthday ever!
It's so easy to focus on the tiny negative isn't it, even in a week full of affirmation.
I really need to work on that too.
Though I've had an awful evening with my son too tonight, that's part of me feeling so miserable this minute, he's been so bad-tempered and unpleasant. Just like his father used to be, brings back so many unhappy memories and makes me so sick of his father's continued negativity which is affecting our child. I am handling it but completely drained, he's downstairs writing up the homework we just did, so I am having a quiet cry on the computer...
Going to tuck him in and have another little chat now he's calm and happy.
Goodnight everyone!
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Hi Write,
Sorry you're feeling drained and conflicted. Please don't feel in any way that you have to try to keep it going with the eye candy guy. Drop it full stop if you want to. You don't have to have a reason. If it isn't fun, don't do it.
If you do want to practice on this guy, you have to be in a state of not really caring what happens. If he never responds, so what, you're too busy anyway and he wasn't paying the correct attention. If you are going to shoot him light emails, great, but then you have to forget you even sent it and above all don't put anything in there that obligates a response.
I am not trying to give you mixed messages, just trying to cover the bases whatever you decide to do. From the miniscule amount I know, I imagine that this man is not a long term deep relationship possibility for you. So think of your precious self in layers. He can stay on the surface layer. Your real friends are deeper inside.
Kids can be really hard on you sometimes. And they do not know it, until they are adults. That is why good parents are such saints. Do you tell your son that he is hurting you? At ten, he is old enough to learn that. (Is he ten? Where did I get that idea?)
I think making the lists is a good idea. You listed the great things that have happened to you lately (I am jealous) and the one little doubtful thing that seems to be overshadowing it. Does it help to take score like that?
Chin up
Plucky
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Thanks Plucky.
I do like to try things, I know if I am going to break out of old patterns I need to.
Don't worry about 'mixed messages' I know exactly what you are saying.
I think maybe I could do it more if I was more together, but I'm still a bit all over the place.
When you're feeling 100 % it's easier to think 'oh well' not the whole host of negative dialogues which crowd in when you feel you've been rejected or 'blown it' or all the other horrible feelings when a relationship doesn't come together.
My son is tucked up in bed, looking cute; he's promised to try to be less unpleasant, I asked him why and he said 'because it upsets you and it's not nice to be around' so hopefully he can get out of this habit. I replied that the worst thing it will do is hurt him, and that's why I want him to really try. Yes he's 10.
It doesn't help when my ex says so much inappropriate stuff, he's been terrible this last week again, I can bet he's stopped taking a/d s, and I know he's put the therapy on hold whilst he garners money for his house move.
I did have a very good week, worked really hard, had a nice time with my son apart from tonight and as I say there are plenty of other as you say deeper people to connect with.
Does it help to take score like that?
I journal in my Thankfulness book most evenings, yes it helps give better perspective, something I am not good at because of my mood swings.
When I look back to a couple of years ago I can't believe things are so good for me, we have come a long way as a family.
I guess I am tired, wanted to go for a swim but I think a sleep would be more beneficial...full work day tomorrow.
I came back up here because I still feel wound up, thanks for your words Plucky, I'm going to go sleep on them!
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Hi Write, Hi Plucky...
I would like to say that I feel concerned about the notion of fairly casual sex and using time and effort toward this man, for you, Write. I think you need to become your OWN lover, if the expression makes any sense. I'm not talking about sexuality, as much as just hoping you'll step forward in faith that you can fall in love with your own life now. As slowly and calmly as is right for you and keeps you safe and balanced.
It's great to be moving forward, but it is so draining and difficult to end a marriage, any marriage, that I think while you're weathering this hugely significant change, being with someone in a way that's counter to your natural tendencies (strongly loving, capable of commitment and powerful attachment)...could backfire.
I know I'm just speaking from my own misadventures, but I identify a lot.
(Hope it's not offensive to sort of contradict your advice Plucky...I admire and envy your pragmatic take on things. And I have often wished I could have a lighter more friendly-sex type of relationship. I've finally decided I can't though. I'm probably projecting, but I am wondering if Write could be similar...?)
Hope I'm making sense to each of you, getting sleepy!
((((((Write, Plucky)))))
Hops
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I came back up here because I still feel wound up, thanks for your words Plucky, I'm going to go sleep on them!
I'm glad you feel better Write,
and actually, I had already gone to bed, but I read your post just before logging out, or being kicked out whatever, and when I got to bed I knew I could not rest until I responded, so I got back up. I felt silly but now I'm so glad! Thank you! It makes me feel connected.
Sleep tight
Plucky
Ps Hoppy I'm not offended.
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I know I am too serious sometimes, so I tried it, shot him a light-hearted email about church, but it's just made me really anxious all evening, I kept looking to see if he'd replied ( he hasn't ) and second-guessing myself. Basically it makes me feel insecure to deal with the ambivalence and being disregarded. It's a lot easier to cut off hoping he'll respond how I'd like and write it off to experience and move on.
Hi WRITE,
My situation is quite different from yours, but this leapt out at me. I was emailing my N-co-worker quite a lot until a few weeks ago. Each and every time I emailed him, I felt that same anxious feeling you describe here. And I went through the same behaviors of looking for a reply, etc. Often I thought I was emailing him as an exercise almost of trying to make myself into some light-hearted person who can just "be fun" and not take it seriously. I had saved the email "correspondence" for several months and saw that he emailed me about once for every four or so times I emailed him. It had become almost a compulsion on some level. And it made me feel ill on some level no matter how it turned out--if he ignored me it triggered all kinds of hurt, if he responded it made me quite nervous, or it made me inordinately happy. Now that I have stopped it, it seems to be part of my feeling stronger inside of myself. Occasionally I still have the urge to email him, but it passes more quickly and later on I can think to myself, if I had emailed him I'd be anxious about it right now instead of having the more calm and strong feelings that I actually have. He has never asked me why I stopped emailing, but I believe it bothered him at first because of some indirect things he said and did. So, that kind of tells me it was some kind of head game or power trip he was playing by mostly not responding in kind to my emails.
Don't know what your crush guy is really like on the N-scale. Maybe he is "one-directional" with everyone. But he could also be doing a subtle power trip on you. Whatever it is, there is a good reason for your feelings of anxiety, I believe, when it comes to this issue. My N-co-worker knows which things are bothersome to me (foolish me was too open with him for too long) and he can't seem to stop himself from pushing those buttons as long as I keep being willing to leave myself open in that way. In some ways, I think I'm doing him a favor by not giving him those irresistable chances to do the meaner thing. It's like I have to be the grown up here because he can't be.
I think you're on the right track in filling your life with good people who respond in more normal ways to your overtures. Letting crush guy gradually slip into the background might end up being a very good thing in the long run. It also frees up your mind to work on issues. He might be some kind of "drug" that distracts you. I think you mentioned that issue already, of distraction, and I definitely agree.
You're doing great, WRITE. It's a work in progress, sometimes a meandering one, but progress nevertheless.
Love, Pennyplant
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I am sorry my insomnia was catching- though I feel incredibly grateful you would get up because you're thinking of me!
A huge storm here woke me up, I haven't been able to get back off. I'm pretty wound up I guess, though no pacing up and down or great agitation- it's like so much of that evaporated recently. I just feel confused and hurt.
Don't know what your crush guy is really like on the N-scale. Maybe he is "one-directional" with everyone. But he could also be doing a subtle power trip on you.
it had occured to me too PP. 'Please, not the old weakness...' Why I get so attracted to N men I don't think I'll ever understand.
But he has a very South US conventional background and religion. Going to a local baptist church this morning, it was pretty nasty. I don't mean to disrespect anyone here who is Baptist, but I have studied it and what I saw today was an egotistical N-fest not what Baptism the faith was meant to be about. The guy talked about himself for an hour, how the members need to submit to him because he is leading them to G_d and it was the same as wives submitting to their husbands...( it's a mistranslation of the Greek 'arrangement' or 'co-operation' in a military context to facilitate order! Of course our concept of what a personal relationship is has changed and though patriarchy still persists more and more people do not believe women should be submissive or unequal. Not that that is what Paul says- men have translated it to mean what they wanted to) & a
bout how 1200 Southern Baptist ministers have this year lost their positions because of arguments about style and faith ( fundamental Baptist freedoms ) with their members.
Crush guy has said his own Baptist church has similar problems, but there has to be something strange about continuing to be in an organisation which you don't believe in, especially when it costs you 10 % of your income to attend and support those things!
Why doesn't he just say 'look, I'm not interested any more' is something I have asked myself. I also get the feeling I have hurt him, & I can't seem to put this right because he doesn't communicate what I've done or what he wants. It's like the moment he has my full attention he backs off. Maybe I'm just too intense for him.
Maybe he has a lot more going on & none of it's about me.
Or maybe I just stirred him up as he did me...
I read and internalised the Judith Sills book Hops recommended, and she sees it very much as a distance/ pursuit balancing act, but I see it more and more as playing games and just bloody tell me! We talked about everything else under the sun, it's not going to kill us if one is more interested than the other.
I wonder if he's picking up on the bipolar? I did try to tell him about it and have told him I get very intense and manic- he has commented on my energy at work etc, but it's not something I just tell people the full story until I've got a reason to.
This is all new to me, dating, I don't really get how 'nomal' people do it, never mind me.
Letting crush guy gradually slip into the background might end up being a very good thing in the long run. It also frees up your mind to work on issues. He might be some kind of "drug" that distracts you.
yes, I think so.
But it has been helpful to teach me some stuff by seeing the process, and feeling rejection without falling apart.
That IS a first.
Email is too easy PP. It's a powerful instant method of communication which feeds right into any obsessive tendencies we might have. I mean who knows how many times we check emails? Only our own self-discipline and discernment governs what we do in this huge private space.
When I was sick my friend said to me 'you're being weird about email' and she was right, I was up on here every few minutes neurotically fussing about something.
that kind of tells me it was some kind of head game or power trip he was playing by mostly not responding in kind to my emails.
you're right. In all healthy encounters it goes back and forth doesn't it, even if one person is more forthcoming than the other, a brief response is in order or acknowledgemnt or feedback.
I feel concerned about the notion of fairly casual sex and using time and effort toward this man, for you, Write. I think you need to become your OWN lover, if the expression makes any sense. I'm not talking about sexuality, as much as just hoping you'll step forward in faith that you can fall in love with your own life now. As slowly and calmly as is right for you and keeps you safe and balanced.
received and understood Hops!
You are right, I felt so much better yesterday for a positive day with people who affirm me than today reaching out to someone who doesn't have the goodwill to respond one way or another.
I do tend to confuse people though, so I am happy to take responsibility for that.
And the whole thing is useful to me in showing me- why don't you back off or leave well alone the moment something doesn't feel right...that's the next piece of my puzzle, and I suspect it's another bit of this abandonned baby thing, trying desparately to engage someone to take care of or acknowledge me so I can survive or be taken care of.
How can I work on that?
Sorry for all the big rambling lately, thanks for listening to me and especially for connecting with me.
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Morning write :D
I'll try a bit of questioning to see if it goes anywhere:
Why don't you ask him "are you still interested?"
I also get the feeling I have hurt him, & I can't seem to put this right because he doesn't communicate what I've done or what he wants.
You could say: "Have I hurt you? Is there something I've done that didn't seem okay to you? Do you know what you want here?"
Maybe he has a lot more going on & none of it's about me.
Maybe. You could ask him!!! Did you ask him questions in your email? Asking questions is a good way of getting people to reply. Even a simple question like "How are you?" "How was your weekend/day/evening/did you enjoy......?" How many questions are in your email to him?
Or maybe I just stirred him up as he did me...
You won't know if you don't ask! ha... there's a theme running here .... 8)
We talked about everything else under the sun, it's not going to kill us if one is more interested than the other.
So did you talk about 'it'? Why does it have to be him that does it?
In all healthy encounters it goes back and forth doesn't it, even if one person is more forthcoming than the other, a brief response is in order or acknowledgemnt or feedback.
Not necessarily. I have friends who will talk for two hours with me and then not speak for 3 months even though I might contact them. It's a sort of co-inciding when we do talk. I understand they're busy and that to talk to me, they need to apply full attention, and they can't always do that (coz I'm intense too :D).
reaching out to someone who doesn't have the goodwill to respond one way or another.
:o You sound angry now. He doesn't have goodwill - are you sure? Do you know how often he checks his email? Do you know for sure that he's seen your email? Questions questions.... facts before judgements.
trying desparately to engage someone to take care of or acknowledge me so I can survive or be taken care of.
How can I work on that?
Be aware that other people might want exactly the same thing and are looking for cues from you that you can do that for them. In other words, try to get inside their heads to understand them, instead of looking inside your own head for the answers. You won't find out about them, thinking in your head. Does that make any sense?
((((((((((((((write)))))))))))))))))
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hi Portia
thanks for your questions. When I asked him directly 'have I upset you' he said no and smiled, I have no way of knowing with this guy what he's thinking 'cos he doesn't want me to know. When I said 'what do you want' he says he wants a girlfriend, which he knows I can't be right now. But even then it's not 'I want you for a partner', he's just enjoying me running around after him probably! It's getting to the point other people are noticing the dynamics between us, and I am starting to feel like an idiot.
My self-esteem isn't 100 % you know...nor my tolerance to stress.
It really isn't worth making myself sick over.
I'm not angry with him- the way I have been it's more than likely me who has caused any confusion or upset.
I think it's just best left, it's not the best time for me and it's stirring me up in a bad way now, I really need to focus.
Last night I didn't sleep partially it's knowing he'll be somewhere I'll be tonight, and here's another week gone by and why am I still thinking about him when I decided not to.
My son's sick this morning, maybe that's why he was so horrid last night, he's always been like that, ill-tempered when he went down with something.
I got very little sleep so it's probably a difficult day and I work all day Mondays, even a tea dance this evening!
I'm feeling avoidant, maybe I'll stay home after that, my son will probably want me here anyway.
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I wrote all that and it's partially lack of sleep and anger with myself for exposing myslef emotionally whilst I am too vulnerable but I feel so frustrated too that these kinds of relationships have been so difficult all my life.
I know it's the guys I pick and I am sure I don't pay any attention to the nice steady guys who would treat me well, but it's a bit of a theme, this me racing around trying to understand what some man wants whilst what I want doesn't seem to hit the agenda.
This time I placed it higher on the agenda and instead of the guy being more receptive he became less.
I'm really frustrated and hurt- not with him personally- but with the fact I can't do this stuff.
The other relationships in my life are really fine on the whole, they'll just have to be enough, I can't do romantic love without it unbalancing my mind.
It's just too damn hard for me.
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ps did I tell y'all my N friend emailed this week, haven't heard from him in over a year now his wife has left him it's 'I really need to talk to you'.
I told him he can email if he likes, I'm in no frame of mind for telephone conversations with yet another N, and he is the worst one not in terms of aggression but in making you feel like you've been through a wringer. I don't even talk to his wife my friend much about their marriage either- it's not a good idea to get in on anyone's marital problems.
Speaking of phone conversations I just told my ex, I am not happy with the fact he is constantly cursing and allowing my son to do so ( I mean completely no barriers, I'm not just being prissy ) and the negativity day in day out about everything.
Ex has now started distancing himself as he hears this broken record from me day in day out, that can only be a good thing.
Why have I been such an idiot and let these people drain me? Starting to fall apart again, and I only have myself to blame when I know stress is a trigger and I keep allowing life to get stressful.
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Why doesn't he just say 'look, I'm not interested any more' is something I have asked myself. I also get the feeling I have hurt him, & I can't seem to put this right because he doesn't communicate what I've done or what he wants. It's like the moment he has my full attention he backs off. Maybe I'm just too intense for him.
Oh, when they won't communicate even though you have asked and asked.... that is a power trip. A few threads ago, I told a story about a co-worker and our supervisor who has no boundaries. Co-worker thought for years they were close friends, then last spring some slights added up and she realized she was actually not as close as she had thought. She was B-list. This bothered her no end. She wrote the supervisor several letters, the last one I read because supervisor showed me (yes, won't be doing that again). She kept saying in the letter, Just tell me the truth!
Now, I know a version of the truth, which is that supervisor has become very uncomfortable with co-worker, calling her clingy and some other things such as maybe co-worker has some kind of crush on same-sex supervisor. Did she tell any of that to co-worker? No. She thought about it a few days and handed back the letter saying, "You didn't have to pass a test to be my friend. You can take this back and pretend it never happened or you can give it back to me...." Leaving unsaid that things would be broken hereafter if the letter was given to supervisor and allowed to "be real".
Power and control. Now co-worker seems to be grateful to be B-list. Maybe it's not inner circle, but outer orbit of this phenomenal specimen of "friend" is better than nothing?!?!
Are you too intense for him? No doubt you are. He can't handle truth. He can't handle emotions. My N-co-worker said that to me in an email--"This is too much for me!!! I can't handle this!!!!" Then in the next paragraph, "Let's go back to being friends like we were before." I am the same person now as I was before. He just didn't know me that well before. And he liked it better that way. So, there is some truth for you directly from the brain of an N.
Letting crush guy gradually slip into the background might end up being a very good thing in the long run. It also frees up your mind to work on issues. He might be some kind of "drug" that distracts you.
yes, I think so.
But it has been helpful to teach me some stuff by seeing the process, and feeling rejection without falling apart.
That IS a first.
Email is too easy PP. It's a powerful instant method of communication which feeds right into any obsessive tendencies we might have. I mean who knows how many times we check emails? Only our own self-discipline and discernment governs what we do in this huge private space.
When I was sick my friend said to me 'you're being weird about email' and she was right, I was up on here every few minutes neurotically fussing about something.
Yes, yes, I agree whole-heartedly about what can be learned from having some level of relationship with these people we are drawn to so deeply. When you go into it with eyes open, which now can happen with this new knowlege of voicelessness that we didn't have before, then we can learn such important things. I guess the idea is to also pay attention to when the useful lessons cease, or when the personal growth has taken you beyond what this person offers. As it is, they don't offer a lot, but they offer what they are capable of. That has value in and of itself. You did "stir him up" or none of this would be happening. But he may not be capable of receiving all that you can give. He may not be capable of giving much at all. At some point it will die a natural death. If you were in this without the knowlege of voicelessness you have, then it might spin out of control with the head games and power trips. It is possible for this to be some kind of relationship with some caution and with a time limit--determined not necessarily in advance. Just be alert, I would say, to when it turns the corner toward dying away and seems to be more past than present. Don't force encounters. Let them develop. If son is sick, then stay home with him. It also just happens that you would miss Crush guy, but so be it. Son is important. Crush guy is something else. Life lesson maybe. Be receptive to what comes along without trying to make it into something.
Your friend who told you you were getting weird about the email--what a good, good friend she is. She is a keeper. She is receptive to you and open. Compare her to Crush guy. He doesn't hold a candle I bet.
WRITE, you're learning some things that weren't taught you early in life. My theory is that 14 is really awkward when you are 40. But I was never really 14 so it was inevitable I suppose. You can't skip stages and ages. They wait for those openings and just pop right out regardless of appropriateness.
I want to thank you for your posts. While our situations are not the same, lots of bells are ringing for me on this one. It is such a help to know that others worry in similar ways and do similar things in order to understand and cope. You are learning so much and will continue to do so. Me too.
Oh, and Crush guy's church--that's a pretty crucial thing for you not to have in common. All kinds of potential for unhappiness on that one.
These types seem really good at the physical chemistry thing. Maybe it's a balance thing. If they are that good at sexual attraction, then what is left for the other important ways for two people to connect? The eternal, soul stuff. I'm thinking that if you've got the eternal, soul kind of stuff with somebody, the sexual part will follow. Just a theory since I seem to be a one man kind of woman.
I hope you can get some rest today, WRITE.
I think you're figuring it out, even if it doesn't feel like it at the moment.
PP
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Thanks PP
I think you're figuring it out, even if it doesn't feel like it at the moment.
you're right, I do see a wobbly progression.
"Let's go back to being friends like we were before." I am the same person now as I was before. He just didn't know me that well before. And he liked it better that way.
happens a lot- people say they want to be more connected but do they?!
Being connected means dealing with stuff.
Someone said here recently in their family they were always seen as stirring stuff up because they wanted to deal with stuff, mine were like that.
I'm thinking that if you've got the eternal, soul kind of stuff with somebody, the sexual part will follow. Just a theory since I seem to be a one man kind of woman.
yes, and I can't do that until I am single and in a stable place emotionally.
It's frustrating too but the more well I get the less likely the relationship will be for me each time and the more I need to be selective to maintain the things I want my life to be about.
I wish I had someone to hold me though sometimes, life must feel better for that?
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I wish I had someone to hold me though sometimes, life must feel better for that?
Yes, that's the difficult one. I have no answers on that one. Even though I have my husband, who is the real deal in all ways, I still have that weakness with N-co-worker. I won't lie about it and pretend it is easy. It is not easy at all. The physical part, the sexual attraction, is very powerful, probably in all people. We all need it, I think. I think anyone can give in to it under certain circumstances. That is perhaps why the people who can't do emotions and truth well, do use sexuality so well. And it works so well. It sure worked on me. Maybe I shouldn't call it a weakness. Maybe it just is.....
Would he just hold you sometimes? Is that possible with Crush guy? Real question. Sometimes I think my N-co-worker should just hold me once in awhile. And that it would be enough. I mean, somewhere in there he is just a little boy whose daddy and mommy died. I don't know. Maybe I'm being very naive and foolish here. I know for sure that my N-co-worker has some really immature, uber-male fantasies. Really, I feel more myself if he is a very small part of my life. Small doses of him have a very powerful effect on me. Not just me. Other females he works the magic on, too. Red flag? Probably.
Maybe just be cautious, WRITE. With anybody who has such an effect on you so effortlessly. Going slow is not cutting them out of your life completely. Going slow lets you put them in the right place in your life.
PP
Added on edit: WRITE, I'm telling myself this stuff, too. In re-reading my posts, it comes off as me having answers. I don't have answers. I'm not doing these "smart" things all the time. Just going along here and trying out my ideas and what I've learned in this place and what I'm learning as I muddle along figuring out why certain people are in my life and have a certain kind of impact on me. Truly I don't want to advise anyone, not even me. Just want to think outloud and maybe get a little closer to what might work and what might feel better. Each issue you bring out here does that for me as well. To me, this is the good stuff.
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Hi Write--
I can't imagine anything more useful that the understanding you're already receiving.... Especially PP's. I do identify, so much, with what you're going through. Here's why:
Although I'm not diagnosed bi-polar it's been suspected and I definitely get overstimulated, manic and-- in the past--absolutely obsessed in romantic relationships. I have been on the edge of my seat with anxiety about every contact, constantly wringing out my sweaty brain and checking to see if their face left an imprint on the washcloth like a holy shroud (oh lawd, poets should be disciplined for letting fly such crappy metaphors)...
And such desperate, no-question-about-it ADDICTIVE, COMPULSIVE, OBSESSIVE emailing. It's been a few years since my big emotional crash with the next-to-last Nbf (unbelievably, it took one more for good measure). But every single thing you said about your recent communications and off-balance feelings and worries and anxiety and circling thoughts and preoccupation about your relationship to El Crusho is such a mirror of what I went through.
I had assigned love as a job that had to come from the outside in. It's been a couple years now since I hit bottom, and by every measure, life is better. No bf now, and I have accepted that it takes the ime it takes, and I have little control other than learning to be happy and feeling receptive. Good enough.
I really do think Escape from Intimacy by Anne Wilson Schaef could be enormously helpful to you right now.
Be good to yourself, dear Write. No judging whether you're figuring everything out about being newly single or dating or paying the plumber all at once. THERE IS TIME.
There really is time. To walk through the transition, rest up, enjoy music, let an Alzheimer's patient hug you back...seek out a support group for divorced people (every town has them)...just cuddle up to yourself as though you're a fascinating book and every page is turning at the right time and nobody is telling you, read faster!
You take YUUR time. If somebody's too slow, or too fast, for you, that's fine. You can say a peaceful bye-bye and keep walking your path. You'll have company when the time is right and you can't force it.
(Spoken by one who learned that after way too much wreckage).
hugs, (my arm's sticking out of your monitor!) :)
Hops
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thanks Hops and PP
yes it is really hard with bipolar- the sex drive is part of the illness and I didn't even go on the bravery thread because I am such a risk taker it's beyond brave and nuts half the time.
I have to get in a place I can manage things though, and that needs to happen before I am ready for a relationship.
It's just someone new comes into my life and the next thing I am carried away and all these stupid things creep in and make it impossible to centre and balance.
And since that's the way to manage my illness and myself...I can't allow it.
To walk through the transition, rest up, enjoy music, let an Alzheimer's patient hug you back...seek out a support group for divorced people (every town has them)...just cuddle up to yourself as though you're a fascinating book and every page is turning at the right time and nobody is telling you, read faster!
You take YUUR time. If somebody's too slow, or too fast, for you, that's fine. You can say a peaceful bye-bye and keep walking your path. You'll have company when the time is right and you can't force it.
I'll try.
Going slow is not cutting them out of your life completely. Going slow lets you put them in the right place in your life.
I'll try.
Ok. More work....
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Hello Write :D
It's getting to the point other people are noticing the dynamics between us, and I am starting to feel like an idiot.
What do other people say? This is good – feedback, other people’s impressions: you don’t have to agree with their impressions, but it can be helpful to see what others see?
I'm not angry with him- the way I have been it's more than likely me who has caused any confusion or upset.
Who is experiencing confusion or upset? Besides you? Let’s say it’s only you that feels confused and upset. Who else does that hurt? Nobody. Your feelings do not directly affect other people (other than your son who is still going to be directly affected I imagine, although I don’t know).
So you’re blaming yourself above (?) for causing confusion and upset? And yet you’re the one who feels it. So is blame necessary, or is it more realistic to think: “I’m confused and upset and I’m responsible for how I feel. And that’s okay.”
me racing around trying to understand what some man wants whilst what I want doesn't seem to hit the agenda.
Well, me and you and others, we’re all used to giving our mothers / fathers what they want, and not thinking we’re worth being loved for what we are: being loved without having to work so hard at it. So we work too hard and in the process, lose sight of ourselves. We lose ourself in the other person. Yuk. Sounds ‘desperate’ to me. Do you want to date a ‘desperate’ man :?; how does his desperation make you feel? Shock tactics.
ps did I tell y'all my N friend emailed this week, haven't heard from him in over a year now his wife has left him it's 'I really need to talk to you'.
His wife left him??? Ha! Well well. Chickens roosting and so on. You know the answer to his statement, his demand? “Well I really need NOT to talk to you!”. Oh does it feel good to have him say he neeeeeeeds to talk to you, coz only you can understand, only you are able to offer him succour? You, special you! :P
These people. They’re sick. But then you know that he’s sick, a user. Use is abuse! :x
Someone said here recently in their family they were always seen as stirring stuff up because they wanted to deal with stuff, mine were like that.
Ditto! Yeah! Don’t ask questions, don’t ‘cause trouble’, don’t be a ‘stirrer’. Makes me wonder how many sordid nasty little secrets my family had. Or it could just be a product of the local attitude – don’t question your ‘betters’. Etc. It's a crock of manure. :D
I wish I had someone to hold me though sometimes, life must feel better for that?
I hug myself every so often. It’s possible. ((((((((((((((((((((((write))))))))))))))))))))
Hops
I have been on the edge of my seat with anxiety about every contact, constantly wringing out my sweaty brain and checking to see if their face left an imprint on the washcloth like a holy shroud (oh lawd, poets should be disciplined for letting fly such crappy metaphors)...
I like that! But we do that sometimes, obsessional stuff. It depends if you’re happy when you sniff his socks, or wracked with pain at his absence I guess. No discipline necessary. What do you think?
just cuddle up to yourself as though you're a fascinating book and every page is turning at the right time and nobody is telling you, read faster!
Warm and comforting like a darn good novel and a box o chocolates on a cold wet night! 8)
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Hi P,
When I was in that relationship with the first N I knew was an N (I do have him to thank for telling me about the concept, as he was always on about his mother being one...so I naively assumed, well of course HE couldn't be this terrible thing himself!)....
When I was in that relationship, the anxiety over lack of contact, pace, did he really care, was this the Real Relationship I'd been yearning for--was horrendous. It wasn't the happy affection you might feel over someone's socks, or clean desire/yearning you might feel for your partner who's away on a trip.
It was just horrible, off-balance, universe off its axis, can't-be-happy-until-I-hear-from-him obsessive anxiety. Physically, like lots of caffeine plus a little PSTD. Mentally, well...couldn't think much about anything else. And that was likely the most destructive thing. Practically, it meant I abandoned interest in my own life, because all I could think about most of the day was him.
It was a horrible state and I never want to experience it again.
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Thank you P & Hops.
When I was in that relationship, the anxiety over lack of contact, pace, did he really care, was this the Real Relationship I'd been yearning for--was horrendous. It wasn't the happy affection you might feel over someone's socks, or clean desire/yearning you might feel for your partner who's away on a trip.
It was just horrible, off-balance, universe off its axis, can't-be-happy-until-I-hear-from-him obsessive anxiety. Physically, like lots of caffeine plus a little PSTD. Mentally, well...couldn't think much about anything else. And that was likely the most destructive thing. Practically, it meant I abandoned interest in my own life, because all I could think about most of the day was him.
yes I have been here sort-of too, when I say sort-of it doesn't last too long with me, tips me over into bipolar mental illness after a few weeks, usually mania.
It is a physical state- all that cortisol and adrenalin racing around. As you say- horrd.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
It is a very powerful distraction from emptiness though, and my marriage was just so sterile even now I don't think my ex realises how much he's hurt me and continues to hurt our family with his obliviousness.
Oh does it feel good to have him say he neeeeeeeds to talk to you, coz only you can understand, only you are able to offer him succour? You, special you!
if it were in person I can cope with him better because it's easy to challenge him, on the phone he just goes on and on, in fact you remember 'One foot in the grave' where Victor puts down the phone to Mrs Warboys and just keeps going back out of politeness every few minutes and saying yes, yes...it's like that.
I do love him, he has a very generous streak at times, and we've had some nice times together and he is one of the few people who has seen me really ill and just opened his home to me. He drove all night to get to me once when my family were worried about me, but so typically he left after a few hours and didn't think to get me some meds ( he's a doctor ) or take me to hospital!
He will be wanting support in his battle against his wife not support for anything else, that's why I'm not calling. His wife and I talk very openly about our situations and men, she has made it hard for herself by choosing to stay for the lifestyle, but he just got worse until he drove her away.
N people do that. We think it's us who are making the decision but it was them- they want our closeness but can't handle it really and hate us for it.
Re crush guy- much more perspective today. Got stuck in terrible rain here yesterday ( loads of flooding and 2 people drowned ) so had time to reflect.
The issues in all this for me are:
*having a relationship and the hormones etc not triggering my bipolar
( my body is extremely sensitive to changes and particularly falling in love, that euphoria and sleeplessness, I get sick )
*sharing the bipolar with the other person- at what point, how without scaring them etc
( this is a real problem, Kay Redfield Jamison writes about it too, people's reaction to mental illness can be very stereotypical but they pick up on it anyway and wonder subtly what's going on...she says she's never found an ideal solution and just accepts that if someone can't handle the thought of a mental illness she probably doesn't need to be too close to them anyway and that not everyone is overwhelmed or repulsed by it )
*staying on track with divorce and good relations with ex
( this is going well but I have made a firm decision I cannot bring anyone in on the dynamics right now- it's fragile and my ex though he's making practical steps to move on is very difficult to predict. His responses are usually mean in the short-term then he is sorry, but he's extreme and would think nothing of trashing me or another person in his angry miserable state. Things between us are based around my son and we've slowly dropped the rest of our 'friendship' him too, as it didn't feel healthy any more. We discuss practical stuff and our boy and more general things, and interestingly I have been a bit ill the past few days and he has backed right off! I've been on 'broken record mode' too about the behaviours he's allowing my son to witness- negativity and unpleasant talk, he knows I am right but he is so resistant to changing...)
*do I need more therapy around close relationships & my past?
*crush guy himself and what's going on with him
Pennyplant said Just want to think outloud and maybe get a little closer to what might work and what might feel better. and I am finding it very useful to bring things here and have y'all feed back what I'm doing/ thinking...apologies to anyone who is sick of hearing me, skip this thread!
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last night I did go to the chorus and I did wait for crush guy and talk to him after. He seemed pleased to see me, I asked if everything was okay between us, he said 'absolutely' and that he's going to write to me. He doesn't look very happy in himself, maybe he has soemthing going on he doesn't want to talk about ( who doesn't! ) but I would rather have him as a superficial friend than let some more tension build between us and we end in avoiding each other completely.
It struck me yesterday I am acting as though this is the be all and end all of my relationships, when it's not, but that's a typical over reaction for me and something I need to manage.
I've not been managing my illness as well lately, because I've been busy I've been letting the energy levels build to get more doen- and now I'm suffering the stress and anxiety which comes with it.
Anywy, crush guy- I told him it's important to me, a correspondence, & it is. It's how I maintain closeness without overwhelming me or the other person. And it's also a boundary for me in this friendship which is moving towards romance: if he refuses to 'give' me that he's not going to be able to 'give' in other ways I suspect- or maybe he just needs some time to adjust to my very different ways of behaving and thinking.
I'm going to give us both some space, I really have to learn that instead of pushing.
Does this make more sense ( or some sense :) )
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ps
the happy affection for someone's socks- quote of my day! That'll make me smile, there's a poem in that.
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Hi WRITE and all :)
I'm heading out to my Interpersonal Communications and swim class at college shortly, but popped in here to see if there was anything I might like to comment or share on.
WRITE, I had the type of situation, not with Jodi, but with a Borderline Personality Disorder person before her, who also bordered on N'ism. I will call her Dawn. Dawn took over my life because I let her, because I enjoyed her, because I wanted her to. I was bipolar and didn't know it back then; I was codependent and did not know that yet either. I got very close to Dawn for 3 and a half years. We ministered together online in voice rooms, I even spent a month with her. I began to see some things that were really not right with her, so I talked to some people and asked them simply to PRAY for her.
These people ended up going right to her regarding my prayer requests, and all hell broke loose! At one point, Dawn's husband and I had a talk as to "how could you do this to your best friend." I said to him, "you SEE IT TOO! Why are you not confronting her and dealing with this behavior in her? Why does your entire family seem to act like it just isn't going on, like she isn't trying to control and manipulate everyone in her sight with "religion" How can you just ignore what she's doing?" His response was "if I had a best friend I was concerned about, I would address the situation with him, not go to everyone else about it." I told the husband, "I was concerned so I asked some people that I thought I could trust, if they would pray for her, and they went back to her instead of just praying. THere IS a problem with Dawn and since nobody seems to want to address it, I now have. I realize that makes me the enemy and that is a position I am willing to hold. But please tell Dawn to call me so I can talk to her."
Well, Dawn never called me back and it ended up with me BEGGING in tears on her answering machine, calling 8 times one day, telling her that she was right, I was crazy and needed in-patient treatment, so where do I call to get help. She never picked the phone up cause I sounded so crazy.
I did end of going to the hospital, telling them I felt like I was losing my mind. The psychiatrist at the hospital, after hearing my story, told me "that lady, who used to be an anorexic, is now in need of controlling the nearest and easiest thing to her...that happened to be you, so just put some space between you and her and you will be just fine. Well, that's what I did. I stopped calling her, I went to Codep Annonymous and then I met JODI, and you already know most of that situation, so I won't go into it right here.
As far as telling people that I'm bipolar, well, I simply say "I have this problem in my brain that causes me to have severe mood swings. It is known as bipolar II disorder or Cyclothymic Mood Disorder. If I'm not on my meds that help my brain to work normally, I will get very angry with you over stupid little things, I will often sound irrational, and sometimes I will get very depressed about life. I did nothing to cause this disorder. It got worse as I got older. If a person cannot accept you even with this issue, then you don't need to be with them, period.
BPD and N people do evoke craziness in us. As I eventually told Dawn after Jodi then burned her after ditching me and replacing with Dawn and then later replacing Dawn for Cindy..."Jodi is sick. YOu can't expect someone who is SICK to behave as a well person, Dawn. SIck people will act SICK. Mentally ill people will act mentally ill.
Often we just try to analyze our situations too much, WRITE. If that happens, we need meds or we need counseling or something. Life is really not as complicated as we sometimes see it to be. If there is a crazy person on the loose, we need to stay away from them or at least have boundaries that they are not allowed to cross. It's just simple.
~ReallyME
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Write, that's an amazing post and yes, you should keep posting all you like...as long as an encyclopedia, I ain't bored and doubt anybody else is either! You are so smart you are going to get a grip on this.
But it's still a little slippery for you:
waiting for him, seeking him out, asking him for reassurance, asking him for a correspondence, hanging on his promise to write you, ratcheting up the importance of his writing... So now there you are again. Handing him your well-being on a plate, with parseley.
Hon, you're on the pendulum and I DO NOT JUDGE. I do feel it's like addiction. Or it was for me.
Again (and if you're bored with this, I won't blame you! :?) I do feel that Escape from Intimacy by Anne Wilson Schaef could be very useful to you right now.
Sending love, lots of understanding, and so many "been there's"...it really can change. Don't hurt yourself by staying hooked. It's like velcro tape, sometimes you just have to unhook one little hook at a time, but have faith, you'll get free of it. ---
RM,
Your explanation of bipolar is so lucid. I imagine it triggered shame when Dawn heard (from the gossips) that you'd asked people to pray for her. People so do not want to be viewed as needing help. Thank god we have this board where that kind of shame is truly NOT the point!
hugs,
Hops
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Yes, WRITE, everything you say makes sense. In fact, everyone who is posting about bi-polar and their experiences with it is being so forthcoming and helpful. Even for those of us who haven't been diagnosed with this illness, so much of it rings a bell, for me anyway. So much of it applies when I compare some of the things I do to deal with the pain in my life. I'm not saying that when things have gone badly for me I think it is "just illness". I think I'm saying that real pain and real losses have a significant impact. This is how it is when you face that impact.
WRITE, I wonder what the impact on your relationship with Crush guy will be when you get back to managing the illness. I think I understand why you have let the energy have more free rein. I believe that if I could do that, I would, because it is so discouraging to see all around me what I have to let slide because I just don't have the energy or will to tackle all of it. I do have ups and downs, but only the depressed part of it becomes extreme in me. The "up" part of it just can't go far for long with me. I don't have the physicality to sustain it.
But I'm assuming that you will go back to managing the bi-polar so as not to get too close to psychosis. And I wonder how getting back to management of symtoms will impact your feelings about Crush guy. Your thinking seems sound about keeping Crush under control so as not to impact the divorce, your creativity, your livelihood, your son and your friends. It is the feelings side of it that is the variable. The pain it causes. I think that part of it is important too.
Also, I'm wondering how the feelings for Crush guy might be related to earlier periods of your life that might still need to be grieved. This may sound like it is coming from left field. But I've been paying attention to what comes up for me personally as I read this thread. And yesterday while I was thinking about my own situation with N-co-worker and the email addiction, my husband brought up some things from the past, as he wants to work on what he carries around too. And we were talking about some events from the last few years and it brought up some grief for me. And it seemed so close to the surface, these events of several years ago. They are still hurting me even when I don't think about them hardly at all. And why would such seemingly unrelated events bubble up when I'm thinking about current hurtful relationships? Well, that is how I have processed grief. And abandonment. Betrayal. That is how I have distracted myself from that pain. And that is how I have lived with the fact that some of those events were my fault and I can't change them. And I don't want to own them. And the people I have drawn to myself and gotten attached to and hurt by also carry similar events around with them. And they also don't want to own them or think about them.
It's all related in my opinion.
And if you work on managing something as big as the bi-polar and if I work on managing my addictive behaviors then it all may be affected. But maybe in good ways. Not good-bye ways. Do you see what I mean? That it is possible to make it all manageable. Not have to dismiss these people. The Crush guys. But not let them hurt us either. And to do this by managing the coping behaviors. Really reining them in.
You've sort of got a list it seems. I have one too. It's not complete. But some of it is:
Taking care of my body by getting enough rest and eating better.
Doing well at work since I need to stay gainfully employed to do my part to take care of our home and family.
Taking care of my heart and soul by facing my real life, my real feelings, my real past.
Starting to focus on what goes on around me, my family and friends, listening better, being open, being receptive, in real ways, getting out of my head.
Starting to identify what I want the future to hold such as a better, smaller home that we can handle and healthier friends who we really like.
Tapping into my creativity.
My list seems somewhat overwhelming to me. Maybe over a lifetime it will be possible, though.
Your list makes a lot of sense and seems like it contains important things. Things that would make a very full life. Maybe Crush guy should be in small doses for quite awhile. S&S has a really good idea for the physical part. I've never had a massage, but friends of mine who have really benefitted a lot from them. It is physical and emotional with the right person. And manageable. Healing.
Yes, WRITE, keep going with this as you can. This is really good.
Pennyplant
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If there is a crazy person on the loose, we need to stay away from them or at least have boundaries that they are not allowed to cross. It's just simple.
Thanks RM.
Sometimes I have been that crazy person though, so I am pretty empathetic when someone else acts out. I think the difference with the personality disorders is the lack of change- it's not like helping someone temporarily over a crisis- they are the crisis!
Living with bipolar is difficult, but not impossible, I am determined to have my best life even if I have to modify things or rely on medication sometimes.
there you are again. Handing him your well-being on a plate, with parseley.
Thanks Hop!
That's it in a nutshell though isn't it- if I am enjoying my life and other relationships and controlling obsessive behaviours I should not hang around waiting for him to write etc. I've left a door open for him ( I like him and really do want to hear what he has to say ) but it's down to me not to keep checking every 5 minutes if he's coming through it!
I'll check out the book again and see if anything strikes me relating to physiological addiction.
I do think part of it though is trying out my feelings in a relatively safe way. I've never had a relationship on the level I would like to and I want to know how to handle my reactions to it.
My therapist said to me a couple of years ago 'before you can risk a relationship you need to know you can cope if it goes wrong'. Well I can cope with rejection now, but I have no idea how I will cope with the physiological and emotional responses. Lusting after this guy has at least let me experience some of that and shown me how I react.
About him- another thing which struck me earlier is- if I am not willing to commit and tell him how I feel and if he feels the same go into a relationship with him, I can't expect him to wait. I can't expect him to put his life on hold just because mine is, and if he meets someone else I need to take it with good grace and accept it wasn't meant to be and someone else will come along at a better time for me.
One of the reasons I try to reframe things positively is because all my emotions and behaviours get amplified by the bipolar, if I am jealous or angry or mean it is so distorted; I've trained myself not to stuff the feelings but to find appropriate places to express them.
That's why I value here so much.
I'm wondering how the feelings for Crush guy might be related to earlier periods of your life that might still need to be grieved. This may sound like it is coming from left field. But I've been paying attention to what comes up for me personally as I read this thread.
Absolutely! Thanks PP.
There's my neglectful early years and almost pathological need to be emotionally independent. And also little paranoid things left over from my marriage, where I was so often rejected and humiliated.
how I have lived with the fact that some of those events were my fault and I can't change them. And I don't want to own them. And the people I have drawn to myself and gotten attached to and hurt by also carry similar events around with them. And they also don't want to own them or think about them.
I don't know about can't change things. We can't tell other people how to respond but it's okay to say 'I made a mistake' or 'I am sorry' or 'I changed my mind' even just to leave it at that?
Yes, WRITE, keep going with this as you can. This is really good.
Thanks, it is for me, like I say apologies to anyone whose eyes glazed over way back :D
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Hi Write,
Maybe I gave you bad advice. This sounds a lot more complex than I realised. I imagine that the last thing you need right now is another item to work through. You have enough on your plate with managing the Ex, carving out the life without him, and your adorable little son.
I'll just stick to saying I support you, am in your corner, think you are nice and I'm listening.
Plucky
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no Plucky, not at all. Bad advice is advice given out of spite or projection. You just gave me a wider perspective on it, and you were right. I do have to brave the partial relationship in order to get to the place of full relationships!
I'm not just going to wake up one day and he's beside me in bed and we've got the perfect mutual set-up.
And I do have to be strong in myself so that I can take care of my illness side, and my emotional history side, and still have pleasant encounters with people in everyday life and not be demoralised when things aren't perfect.
My life's never going to be perfect- too too many factors. But then is anyone's? Everybody has something they'd rather not be dealing with!
Crush guy did write to me this morning, so Portia was right too, he was confused about what I am wanting him to do. I have been confused and ambivalent myself.
And you are also right here Plucky- I need to focus especially on my son who is growing up fast, and on carving out a good life for us irrespective of who my life partner might be or no life partner. I can do that.
I am lonely and needing that hug, and Hops you should know a client I've not met before came over and held me yesterday at work, she said 'doesn't that make you feel warm inside?!' You were right.
Yesterday I took a small amount of seroquel at bedtime and slept 10 hours, that will immediately calm down the growing mania. I am getting much better at this, and I can't tell you how much difference it's made to give up alcohol, caffeine, junk food, toxic relationships....it just feels like a lot of balls in the air at one time to juggle whilst I'm in limbo of divorcing/ moving house/ building a livelihood.
G_d takes care of me though, I do trust in that.
Thanks all, will try to read Storm's story thread later. Off to meet a dear friend for lunch and chat with a baby! Plenty hugs forthcoming there...
:)
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Hope you enjoy chatting with the baby, write!
You said something a while back, i think on this thread, about your various activities all adding up to 'you' - I think you meant that you have your music and alz. work and writing and art and maybe you felt you 'should' (!) concentrate on one and make that the big thing? and that now you're seeing alllll those things as making up the work you do?
I liked that way of thinking and then I wondered: the life partner idea. The one and only etc.
Having male friends - say you had a number of male friends that you did things with - cinema, food whatever - they could all be your friends and maybe one day, one would be more. But in the meantime, could you enjoy their friendship without the romance/bed side? I know that this ain't easy by any means....maybe you could wear a badge: 'only available for friendship right now'!
take care ((((((((write))))))))
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say you had a number of male friends that you did things with - cinema, food whatever - they could all be your friends and maybe one day, one would be more. But in the meantime, could you enjoy their friendship without the romance/bed side? I know that this ain't easy by any means....maybe you could wear a badge: 'only available for friendship right now'!
Hi P
you know this was exactly what I was trying to do! I thought if I cultivated guy friends it would be a good healthy substitute for a relationship I am not ready for.
But guys don't see me this way. I'm not drop dead gorgeous or anything close so they are all pally at first and think I am really cool, a good friend. I never see a romantic interest coming but actually most of my guy friends have become potential or actual partners even if it was just intense attraction or a fling. Maybe it's a boundary I'm not setting because of the bipolar intensity thing?
Also I admit I do love to be undisciplined, I can see I frustrate people trying to advise sometimes because I don't believe much in relationship rules. Love goes where it will....I'm a free spirit so long as there is nothing abusive or potentially abusive or hurtful going on.
I have currently told my friends I am not dating until I am divorced, and I'll try to be more consistent even if I want to rip someone's clothes off like with crush guy!
people sense it though don't they, even if it's unspoken and 'against the rules'... :) :(
'The one and only'
I think when you meet someone who comes close to your fantasy ideal it feels that way, but I really believe there is potential in many relationships not this one blinding flash and that's it.
Even if they were your soul-mate it's still a lot of work getting from that to a mutual working relationship and communicating on the same level.
You too P ((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) You having a good week?