Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on October 17, 2006, 10:44:48 PM
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I need some insight about something which is truly puzzling me concerning my mother:
She seems to be keeping me out of the know with things... or she will let me know in an odd sort of way. Mostly it has to do when people are sick or have died. I keep wondering if she tells me because she knows I will find out and then know she didn't tell me. But why wouldn't she share the information in the first place?
Examples: A week ago I talked to my mother on the phone. Typical conversation, the weather, the animals, etc. Get ready to hang up. She says, "Well, I wasn't going to tell you this, but your cousin has a blood infection and may die. We don't know what's going on." Then she says "Don't tell." And I asked, well, can't I write and wish him well and tell my aunt and uncle I know. And she said, yes... but don't elaborate, or some weird thing like that.
One of her cats was hit by a car on the road. Instead of telling me, she copied an email she sent to my aunt about it. I wrote to tell her I was sorry to hear she lost her cat (it was one she had adopted and it lived outside) and asked if the others were okay.
As I told you before, when my cousin died, my mother wrote a chatty email about her vacation and how great it was and then stuck at the end, "Oh, by the way, I don't want to upset you, but your cousin died of a sudden heart attack."
I deal with anything like this well. I always write or call the person who is sick or grieving and give support and they appreciate it. So what is with this thing of hiding stuff fromme, or wanting to? There are many more examples like this.
Any ideas? This is a real head-scratcher for me
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My mom was a lot like this too. She acted like she was keeping stuff from me out of concern for me, but in reality she just couldn't bring herself to be emotionally connected to me in any way. She didn't want to talk about anything that might stir up feelings (except for anger---she loved that emotion) I remember a time she had cut her finger pretty badly and I didn't know until I walked in and saw blood on the floor. She was just tending to it herself AND I HAD ALREADY FINISHED EMT CLASSES. You know, it's hard to put bandaging on with one hand, but that's what she did. Blood has never, ever bothered me and she knew that but her excuse for not asking for help was that she didn't want to upset me. :roll: "Emotionally unavailable by choice" is how I would describe my mom. Course she had had some crappy stuff happen to her in earlier years that I think hardened her and made her afraid to love, but nevertheless, we didn't connect by her own doing/choosing.
Is your mom emotionally distant in other ways too? With other people or just with you?? Sounds to me like either your mom doesn't want to be "close" or else she gets that sadistic thrill of making you feel unimportant/ not needed by dropping important bomb shells offhandedly and callously. I say that last part, because that's what my dad would do. He'd tell me something very important in an offhanded manner and totally act like he he wasn't being emotionally close with me about it because he just knew I didn't care anyway. :x He'd preface a lot of remarks with "Not that you care, but....."
In short, your mom has the issues, not you. She's treating you distantly because she doesn't want to be close to you, or she's emotionally scarred and can't bring herself to be close to you out of fear of getting hurt, or she gets sadistic thrill out of hurting you.
Sorry to be so blunt (and wish I could remember more about what you've disclosed on here about your FOO, but my memory fails me, sorry) but that's how I see it. I'm sure her actions hurt you, but as an advice columnist recently started a reply, "If the person you're speaking of is your mother, you should know by now she isn't gonna change"
Hope you can find a place where she can't hurt you and where you can see her antics for what they are and not take them to heart.
((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))
Adrift
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hi beth ...sis :)
Yaaaah. My mom does this too. I think its cause she exaggerates so horribly about others medical conditions (and seems to know everyone's) that she'd be embarrassed if I called them and found out the truth. So when you go and blow that cover, they look bad.
My sister sent some emails a couple years ago - after my Mom blew a "condition" she had so out of proportion, she was getting calls from family asking how long did she have to live? It was a gross exaggeration, and my sister was really peeved! Also, I think some things are shared with her in confidence - she tries to keep it a secret..but can't, so slips it in at the end of a conversation. Perhaps it then feels as if she hasn't just told you something she wasn't supposed to share? like - hey, I was good, I waited until the end of the convo to tell her -so that's the same as keeping the secret! Just guessing this is how my Mom's brain works, cause this is so common, it's like clockwork. I can always tell when she's about to drop this bomb, too, cause she sounds happy. It is so creepy - right before the bad news, her tone changes to excitement - probably cause she finally gets to deliver the bad news.
Typical N mother stuff. no surprises. Can you relate to this logic? This is stuff that I've always known, but when I try to describe it to "normal" people, they think I'm nuts and overreacting. They say things like: What? That doesn't even make sense, why would your mother do that?
My response is always (a bit defensive): I don't know. But she's my mother, and I think I've got her figured out, she's been doing it my whole life and it is disturbing. And I've thought about it a lot, believe me.
bean
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Hi g28,
my mother does the same thing. I think it is what Adrift underlined - but also that her role in her eyes is still the Adult and I am still the (overaged, overgrown) Child. So she rations the information over which she has control. In order to 'protect' me. Hah!
Then she throws in zingers. "I didn't think you cared", "You know how upset you get" (not true), and she even, right after I found out that my father was terminal in hospital, phoned to say "you don't have to come back for the funeral" (he was still alive)! That cousin thing was a zinger from your mum. If you had reacted, she then could point to 'how upset you get' and she would be justified in holding back the info after that.
The other thing is. Ns don't know how to react properly as normal people do, when there is a tragey of some sort. They have no empathy. So they try to figure out how to 'act'. When they cannot suss it out, they finally give in and throw out the info offhandedly. This may especially be in play with your family because you deal with things well and respond appropriately.
Good luck with ignoring her. She has a major vacant spot here, and it is not your issue.
Plucky
PS My mother loves to break the bad news too. She savors it.
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Hi Beth,
I'm making this up, but here's the thought:
I think your mother, unable to feel appropriate emotion or grief, is "battering" you with these taunting games about death and illness in order to create distress in YOU. I think as a human organism she at some tribal cellular unconscious level she knows that distress is appropriate, but she cannot feel it genuinely herself. So she projects or "assigns the job" to the person she, in her weird and negative way, feels closest to.
Does that make any sense?
Adrift, Bean, and Plucky--
(Shudder.) But then again, also (sigh of relief). My mother gets an avid look on her face when hearing or delivering bad news. It's a subtle thing in her case, but it is YES CREEPY. It almost seems to me as though she's craving emotional sensation... Iggh.
At the same time, she is stoic and shows little response to her own physical deterioration, except to voice her complaints about the inconvenience of it all. I know it does affect her, I have compassion, but y'all reminded me of sooooo many inappropriate, emotionally deaf reactions she's had to real suffering over the years. Yikes. (I have to say she is always genuinely upset by stories of hurt children, though...true. Although she couldn't respond effectively to my pain, I can't accuse her of having no heart.)
Hops
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Any ideas? This is a real head-scratcher for me
There are two parts to this, and if you think back to infant school playground, it should become clearer.
The first part is the 'I know something you don't know' part.
To an N, knowledge is power. They have it, and like everything else they have, they are not going to just give it away without getting something in return. They want an emotional response of some kind; any kind. Either their own or ours. So, they will give the information directly only to those who are going to demonstrate great emotion. Any of us have learned by now, I suspect, to use the deadpan expression when presented with information, and to respond in a matter of fact way, rather than bursting into tears or throwing our arms around the N.
That is why they punish us by making information either third hand, or late, or indirect, or playing my mum's favourite, the 20 questions game, which usually starts something like this. Me: Have you heard from anyone recently? Her: No. (Pause) Me: Has (name) not phoned? Her: No. (Pause) Well .... they did ring, but they couldn't stop long becuase they were going out. Me: So, they did ring? Her: Yes. etc.
The second part is the 'You are not allowed to tell' part.
They look the same but they are slightly different. Here is my own mum's version of don't tell. Two weeks ago, b rings dad, to say he is going to ring me, to try to sort out the family row. Mum tellls dad not to tell me, because it is between b and me.
Next day, m tells me, in a whisper, and tells me not to tell dad she has told me.
Later same day, dad tells me, but tells me not to let mum know he has told me, because she wanted me not to be told, because it is between b and me. He said, I know you don't like secrets, but ...
I fell about laughing at this point, and said, dad she already told me this morning. At that point he said he thought there was nothing she could do any more to surprise him, but this was incredible. (Not to me, I might add.)
Later went home, and sat there, with me knowing what they both knew I knew. And, because dad said, don't tell, I didn't actually say to them both that they are behaving like children.
Confrontation results in denial. If I asked my mum why she told dad not to tell me, she would say, I didn't. He said it was best not to tell you. This is an out and out lie.
Once you can see what is happening, it does help a bit, but it does not make any of us immune to this crazymaking behaviour.
I just thought of a third level to this. There was a family get together recently, and none of us were certain of the arrangements, except I was taking mum and dad. (I know, mad, but ... :? ) Anyway, we all knew the day and time, and half knew what was happening. So my aunt rang my cousin and found final details, and rang me. And because I was driving, I thought, fine, no problem. But I did not ring my parents.
Then b rang cousin, and then rang parents, to make sure they had a lift. So they found out from him.
Then dad rang me to find out whether I knew the arrangements or not, and when I said I did, he was cross, because he said, he and mum did not know what was happening, because nobody had told them. Which is not true, because b had told them. In other words, I am nobody, and I did not tell them, so irrespective of the fact that they had the information they needed, they were not happy because I had failed to provide them with what they wanted.
And of course, they could not have picked up the phone and taken responsibility for their own knowledge, could they?
Result: attempt to dump guilt onto me for not being perfect. These are not just glass half empty people, these are, my glass has hardly anything in it at all, and is about to run out completely, and it is ALL YOUR FAULT!! :D
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Hi Beth
Me too. Didn’t find out about stepdad’s illness until he was 2 weeks from death. And it had been going on sometime. Anyway. I agree with Plucky here:
Ns don't know how to react properly as normal people do, when there is a tragey of some sort. They have no empathy. So they try to figure out how to 'act'. When they cannot suss it out, they finally give in and throw out the info offhandedly.
Yah. And in hospitals at funerals etc, this particular type (amongst the huge variety that is people-without-empathy), tends to go for the far-away smile as though everything is just hunky dory. Weird stuff.
I also wonder if it is something to do with other people getting attention. They want all the attention so when someone else has a serious problem, they’ll try and make light of it, or brush it aside – because it’s a threat to their ego-feed (“oh she’s only dying, she’s always after attention!”).
Again: it’s not about you Beth. All about her. Everything is about her. Forget the ‘you’ in any interaction. Repeat this 10 times a day at least!
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My ewwww meter is off the charts, so this is (ewww!) ringing so true...ewww!
I also wonder if it is something to do with other people getting attention. They want all the attention so when someone else has a serious problem, they’ll try and make light of it, or brush it aside – because it’s a threat to their ego-feed (“oh she’s only dying, she’s always after attention!”).
This is maybe strange to say, but in addition to the psycho-shocks involved with being around a person like this...I also have a persistent reaction that this behavior is so, well, rude.
Hops
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Hops, how interesting and timely. i used that word last night in describing what it feels like now, to me. Just darn rude! Ill-mannered! Without the slightest bit of consideration for others. Which is what it is I guess... imagine the small child again: "don't do that because it's rude to others"..? *sigh* and yes, that point about making very odd comments when others are dying..it's happened and I've heard it - not exactly that but similar...ewwwwwwww!
((((Hops))))
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October - you hit the nail on the head with the "don't tell" part. My parents are notorious for that.
A funny story:
A few years back when I was 25, I found a lump in my breast. Went to the doctor, he thought it was suspicious despite my age and no family history of cancer, but referred me to a specialist. I was a little unnerved, but otherwise okay.
Anyways, I made the stupid, stupid mistake of telling my mom. I didn't embellish or say that I was dying, just the facts. I also told her to keep it underwraps since it's really no one else's business. She promised she would and asked me to keep her posted. She herself agreed that chances were that the lump was nothing at my age.
Two days later after the weekend, flowers start arriving at my house - no joke. My mom's younger (and sane) sister calls me up to say how sorry she is about my diagnosis and offered to help in any way she can. I'm floored. I tell her straight up what the deal was and she starts laughing hysterically. Turns out that there was an informal get-together with my mom's side of the family that weekend and a few hours into it my mom held court with her siblings (6 of them and their families) and said, "I have devastating news..." and then in between sobs started to choke out that I had breast cancer. She was wailing and putting on such a big act that she (supposedly) fainted. But the kicker is when she came to, she said, "But don't say anything to her. She doesn't want anyone to know."
Mom got her attention, and then tried to hide what she said. And surprise, the specialist didn't find anything wrong with me.
And you wouldn't believe the show she put on a year later when I was in a car accident. :)
Lily
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adrift,
Thanks for a wonderful reply that makes a ton of sense in many ways. I get the "Well, you probably won't care, but..." too. She has acted like I am a monster for years. I am not sure which of your ideas is the correct one (maybe a bit of all of them), but it makes me feel a lot better to know you understand and that I am not imagining this.
Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply.
Love, Beth
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Hey bean,
Hmmm... I am trying to think if she does get excited (sometimes I know she does). I think the secret is the big thing... keeping me out of the know.
Thanks again to you for validating what I was thinking.
Love, Beth
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Yes, yes Plucky!!!! You hit so much of it on the head. I am feeling so much better having written this. I was worried that I was the only one who had this weirdness :) I also think you are right about not knowing how to deal with situations that require empathy, so she imagines how she has seen people react (or thinks they reacted).
Love, Beth
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Hops,
Your reply reminded me of the fact that my mother can't read or listen to news or read any books that are scarier than Nancy Drew. She gets very upset and frightened by stories of killingand such. She is a nurse, and I always wonder how she looks upon those who are sick or dying.
Love, Beth
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October,
Your replies are always so on-target and helpful. Your reply reminded me that my mother loves to go on and on about plans, confusing and twisting them so no one has any idea what she is talking about and then getting pissed off at everyone for now understanding, when she has made a simple thing into a convoluted mess. Of course, then everyone is against her and just treats her like she is dumb (she loves the I am so dumb and cute game, though).
Love, Beth
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Ha ha Portia... it's NOT ABOUT ME :)
Once a long time ago, my dad was sick and we were far away and she held that from me. I would be so pissed if she did that. Fortunately, my sister is there and will tell me if there is anything I need to know.
I am sorry you had to find out about your dad that way. That is awful.
Love, Beth
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Lily,
UNBVELIEVABLE... well not for an N. You know, I have had some major illnesses (thyroid disease and a ruptured disc that kept me in bed for about two months). But life goes on. I take my meds, I watch for numbness in my back and I go on. To her an illness or treatment is a forever thing that she finds a way to work into a conversation to elicit sympathy. Also, I have said before, growing up with her was one doctor visit after another. It is one place she could always get attention.
Thanks for the answer!!!
Love, Beth
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Beth,
just had to note: my N Mom is a hypochondriac too!!!
But... has yours gotten kicked out of a Dr's office? just curious - both my parents have been "fired" by their doctor at some point - actually what I think gets said is something like: this is not a healthy relationship for either of us, I suggest you find another family practice doctor. I will refill your prescriptions only for another month...or something similar
But their version is (told humorously like this is something to be proud of): Dad threw a paperclip at the receptionist cause he had to wait over 1/2 hour when he didn't have an appt, and the office was packed. You know how he is. He said: why is the doctor refusing to see me?!@! I could be dying... So, we are looking for a new family care doctor.
:shock:
bean
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Ewwww.
I'd like to lock all these NMoms in a room together for a few hours...
and videotape everything.
Oooo.
Icckkkkkkk.
Grrrrrr.
Bleaaahhhh.
Aaarrrrggghhhh.
Bleccchhhh.
Hops
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Mom got her attention, and then tried to hide what she said. And surprise, the specialist didn't find anything wrong with me.
And you wouldn't believe the show she put on a year later when I was in a car accident. :)
I would believe it. :lol:
Years ago, the day before a family wedding, my then h took an overdose of antihallucinagens. I knew they were unlikely to do much harm, but thought I ought to get him checked at casualty. So, I rang my parents, to sit with my d while I took him. Big mistake.
Parents came round, but dad insisted on coming with me to the hospital. Several hours later, we all came home again, after the doctors checked that nothing major was likely to happen to h.
Next morning, I had to deliver a letter to our GP to explain what had happened. So we were late setting off for the wedding. H didn't go, but the rest of us did. I made it very clear in the car that nothing was to be said, because it was not our day, but my cousin's (mum's side).
After the wedding, all of a sudden, my family started coming up to me one after another, with very earnest faces, and giving me rather too long hugs, and saying things like, you are brave!! and if there is anything we can do .... I wanted the ground to open up, but I did my usual trick of smiling politely, and not adding any information.
Then i watched mum. She was going round the whole place; outside the church and later the reception too. She would stand near some people, then be moved to sobs, and almost tears. Then, when they did what any reasonable people would do, and asked if she was ok, I saw her time after time, buckle at the knees, and have to be caught from falling to the ground, and then consoled as she poured out to these complete strangers that her daughter's h had tried to commit suicide the day before. She even did this to the parents of the groom, who none of us knew!! Then, when she had sucked those people dry, she would recover her spirits really quickly, and move to the next targets, and go through the whole game all over again.
Looking back, it seems to me now like a comedy sketch, but I think this is because the pain of that particular event has gone somewhere inaccessible, and all that remains is my mum, like a recurring nightmare, going from one person to another, and those earnest looks and horrible hugs of sympathy. :?
And the weird thing is, if anything it was my crisis, and I should have been the one to determine if it was as catastrophic as she was making out, and it never ever was. But Ns have no interest in truth. All they want is the glow of attention, and the spotlight full on them.
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Icckkkkkkk.
Grrrrrr.
Bleaaahhhh.
Aaarrrrggghhhh.
Bleccchhhh.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{shaking October's "mother" until her dentures rattle}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Hops
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Icckkkkkkk.
Grrrrrr.
Bleaaahhhh.
Aaarrrrggghhhh.
Bleccchhhh.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{shaking October's "mother" until her dentures rattle}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Hops
You appear to have jumped to the front of the queue, Hops. :lol: :lol: :lol:
However, in return for such a beautiful image, I am very happy to give way to you. :D
(I had a therapist once, and told him about my parents, and said I felt like burying them under the patio, and he said he would hold my coat for me. :lol: Which is about feelings, and not about me actually doing anything of the kind, of course.)
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he said he would hold my coat for me.
this is so serious but I just nearly weed myself....
seriously though: the pain of that particular event has gone somewhere inaccessible, and all that remains is my mum, like a recurring nightmare,
I hope it changes for you, I really do ((((((((((((((((october))))))))))))))))))
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he said he would hold my coat for me.
this is so serious but I just nearly weed myself....
My work here is done. 8)
seriously though: the pain of that particular event has gone somewhere inaccessible, and all that remains is my mum, like a recurring nightmare,
I hope it changes for you, I really do ((((((((((((((((october))))))))))))))))))
<Puts on wide brimmed triangular straw hat and tries to look inscrutable>
It cannot change. I have to do the changing. Which is a bit of a bugger, really. :lol:
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<guffaw> <snort> <eyes watering> .....>>>>>> fawny-brown bathroom>>>>>>
PS I'll be Dud to your Pete if it gives you expression 8)
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Hey I want to be Pete :lol:
(I always had a crush on Peter Cook)
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Hi Beth
My mother did this as well. In her case, it was spite, pretty much purely. She wanted to make me look indifferent and uncaring to the rest of the family, and one excellent way to do that was to deliberately withhold information from me so that I wouldn't offer support because I'd have no way of knowing it was needed.
When she died, there were maybe three people at her funeral. None of her family showed, and none of my father's family did either.
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My dear friend A, who has a major N mother, said with a big sigh after meeting mine (who reminded her of her own in unpleasant ways):
"Damn, she looks healthy."
And though I don't know about myself (I'm somewhat insulated by not believing in hell) I can guarantee that A is not going there! :lol:
Hops
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My dear friend A, who has a major N mother, said with a big sigh after meeting mine (who reminded her of her own in unpleasant ways):
"Damn, she looks healthy."
And though I don't know about myself (I'm somewhat insulated by not believing in hell) I can guarantee that A is not going there! :lol:
Hops
:lol:
I even have this with my ex now. His life script is to be eternally at death's door, saved by a mother figure. So, he is still at death's door, with cirrhosis, mrsa and God knows what else, and when d asks how he is, and he says he is worse, she says, oh dear, never mind. And when he says he is a little better, she says, what a shame.
This might sound callous in a 13 year old, but considering he told her last year he had a brain tumour and gangrene when actually he had nothing of the kind, I commend her behaviour all the way.
Ns can't or won't tell the difference between a medical test to rule out possibilities, and actually having the condition.
Years ago d was admitted to hospital with dehydration, the doctors having ruled out meningitis. But then h went home and told everyone that she had suspected meningitis. Got him lots of attention, that one. Then three days later, when I brought d home, he had not made up her bed with fresh sheets, nor made me any dinner. After three days in hospital with d, I had a Marmite sandwich for my dinner.
That is the day my marriage finally ended.
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Hi Beth,
hope this going off topic is okay with you! Sorry I didn’t reply earlier to:
I am sorry you had to find out about your dad that way. That is awful.
Well I didn’t have the closest of relationships with stepdad so that part of it didn’t affect me in an adverse way (there was too much going on with other effects too). It was just another strangeness on top of many other oddities. My Dad’s still alive though so that’s okay :D
Moon
I had a crush on Peter Cook too! Those eyes, that nose, that mouth and that dazzling, incisive intelligence and that humour…ahh yes. 8)
Storm
Your mother got more than she deserved at her funeral. (((((((((Storm))))))))
October,
I was wondering about your ex and didn’t like to ask, so glad you mentioned him.
This might sound callous in a 13 year old, but considering he told her last year he had a brain tumour and gangrene when actually he had nothing of the kind, I commend her behaviour all the way.
Children can see some things very clearly. She sounds very adult for her age, but not callous October.
I’m not surprised your marriage ended that day. Enough is enough.
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Hear, HEAR.
I think it's often a simple domestic moment like that, which is completelly absent of love and concern when even WE, the children of Ns, know finally, at last, without confusion, that love and concern is what we deserve....that is the last straw.
I had a similar moment, although I am not convinced my daughter's father was N, more like, just selfish and kind of nasty-tempered. He came home irritated at ME (not her) one night, and she was bouncing on my lap on a towel after her bath, happy and cheerful. He walked in, got one look at this cozy affectionate scene, and she stretched her arms up and went, Daddy, Daddy!
He looked at her, then me, and said to ME, I've had enough stress for one day, and walked outside to his "shed" and refused to come indoors and say goodnight to her, though she cried in her bed for 45 minutes: "What did I do? Why is he mad at me? Why won't Daddy come and say goodnight to me?"
The next day I told him we were getting divorced. He was willing to hurt her, to hurt me, and that penetrated my fog of rationalizations for staying.
Hops
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<Grit teeth> and that was the straw? i won't ask what came before but yes, that sounds like a last straw. I'd say he was thinking about nobody but himself and if narcissism is a graduated line, he's on the line for saying that alone.
Under my breath i admit I called him a bad name when I read you Hops.
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Oh goody.
That's what bad names are for. :)
Poor fella's passed away now, and long forgiven. But my D is working on it still...her painful and longing and angry and hurt and yearning memories of him.
Speaking of D, she's moving to a new little apt. and has been very nice to me (in the process of securing my $$ help...). :? "Thank you so much and I love you". I do think things are getting better for us. I remain curious as to who she'll become. It can't be fixed in stone at 26.
But I'm sticking to my no-doormat resolve. I know that this move is a good idea for her...she's trying to break old toxic patterns, her new place is tiny but less expensive, and she's working very hard to get ready for applying to graduate school. One of her reasons for getting away from her old student address is that it was Party Central...right on the student street where all the bars and pool halls, etc.,are...and she says she can't focus on studying for the graduate record exams there. She also just broke up with a bf who cheated on her and was really suffering. I don't know if she would've confided in me if the pain weren't so great, but I really do feel for her, and she could tell.
I think we'll be okay. She has a drop of her Dad and a drop of me and many choices about herself.
Hops
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Hops
"Thank you so much and I love you". I do think things are getting better for us. I remain curious as to who she'll become. It can't be fixed in stone at 26.
At 26 I didn’t have a clue. It’s not fixed in stone at all! She sounds pretty level-headed and focussed to me. Has her future in her sights. Good!
But I'm sticking to my no-doormat resolve. 8)