Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on October 29, 2006, 09:10:45 AM
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Which of you on here actually KNOW that your parents or people in your life are N's...as in, who's parents were actually DIAGNOSED BY A PROFESSIONAL THERAPIST, as having Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
I will say that the people in my life were and are DYSFUNCTIONAL, but I can't say they were diagnosed with NPD, though I call them N's as they fit every criteria and I have given examples of it several times on this group.
~Laura
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Not me.
It doesn't matter to me though. I don't even think in terms of NPD, to be honest i think "personality disorders" as a whole are pretty unreliable labels, the soft end of psychiatry where there's a host of grey areas. My opinion.
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I'm starting to think we are all Ns to various degrees. The problem is acute when its a parent or spouse, or some other very notable figure in our life - like a spiritual mother we turn to.
As far as NPD? I have never known anyone who was diagnosed with this problem by a psychologist or psychiatrist, no. I suspect my N Dad was diagnosed by my mother's counselor of 5 years (he often went to sessions with her). I suspect she was either diagnosed as inverted-N or BPD (which is a lot like NPD). But I cannot prove it. They'd never tell me and the counselor couldn't divulge this info to me either. But it was very interesting when I saw him for my own marital problems and he told me: bean, you've never been loved unconditionally. When your husband came along, he seemed to love you unconditionally and it was very powerful.
How would he know this? Well, he'd been seeing my parents for years. That's as good a diagnosis as I need. Cause whatever officail diagnosis they have, not being able to love unconditionally is the main symptom, and its a serious problem.
bean
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But you know - none of us loves unconditionally. Not really.
If we don't get something back, eventually we give up pouring our goodness and mercy into a bottomless pit, if we're healthy. Others need our love and are capable of responding to it...
Laura, I actually do have diagnoses on the record on my Nmom and on two Ns I've worked with... the two coworkers each boasted about being 'labeled' and how they're so unique and brilliant that people label them in order to put them down... woowee.
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Storm
the two coworkers each boasted about being 'labeled' and how they're so unique and brilliant that people label them in order to put them down
Holy :shock: incredible. Shocking!! :shock: The ego is an amazing thing? The brain is amazing :D <shakes head, off to clean car...>
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And this was in two different workplaces on different continents.
I'd have been more blown away if it had happened twice in the same place... but since I think a lot of these things are patterned, I guess I'm not so surprised.
[Edit in: this is actually a pretty garden-variety example of rationalization, come to think of it. "They're just jealous of my superior intellect" type stuff. Makes it just about impossible to get through to whoever it is, which is exactly what it's intended to do.]
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Laura,
The therapist who my xh and I saw together for 6 weeks, and I continued to see alone for 2+ years following my x's departure, diagnosed him as n. I would never have had a clue otherwise.
For me, that was a very helpful thing as I was completely baffled about what transpired at the end of the relationship and I was able to do research which made it somewhat understandable. Based on what I know now, I would say that both my father and my xfil were both heavily n, but neither were ever diagnosed to my knowledge.
Brigid
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Laura ,
My Doctor diagnosed my Bipolar and parent with NPD from behaviors and history I told her about and her own experience interacting with parent.
It's pretty much self evident............
I am on my way toward acceptance of all and even an appreciation of Bipolar and not to push it away .
I have never meant to hurt others and have been self destructive my work with my doctor and here have saved me and I had to find my way.
love,
moon
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My father had some therapy many years ago, but I don't know the therapists conclusions, other than depression. I know he quit after not too many sessions. According to my mother he decided he was smarter than the therapist and thus wouldn't benefit from treatment (sound kind of N-ish on the part of my father or mother or both?).
Like reallyme I prefer terms such as dysfunctional, or narcissistic pattern, which get away from labeling the person, and focus on the outcome of behaviors. My father actually knows something is "wrong". He once told my brother he identified with the "Rainman" character from the movies. After doing some reading on autistic spectrum disorders, I believe he got it right.
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Re: my parents: My therapist has always been careful to say, "I can't diagnose someone I've never seen but......" then she points to how their behavior fits with some sort of personality disorder. When I read about living with someone with NPD symptoms it is like reading about my life.
Yet, I still think sometimes, maybe she's not right, maybe it's just me.....
In the end, I know that it doesn't really matter if they are or aren't, I need to stop trying to figure them out and start trying to figure me out.
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hey stormy,
But you know - none of us loves unconditionally. Not really.
hmmm. Do you think I'm naive then, expecting my mother to love me, baby bean, unconditionally. Even when I throw up and cry and have poopy diapers, and get sick and keep her up all night?
:shock:
bean
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I think we give a lot of authority to professionals, but the literature on narcissism often points out that even very skilled therapists are often fooled by narcissists. So, imho, it doesn't really matter if someone has been formally or "officially" diagnosed. Except in the rare case when a narcissistic person is seeking therapy to change those behaviors (which most aren't motivated enough to do). Some are, I'm sure.
Anyway, I haven't learned all the sub-types, don't fully understand the "inverted narcissist" model. But the basic building blocks in the DSM-IV are good enough for me. And they're not hard to spot.
Who but a child or spouse who lives or has lived FT with a narcissistic person and who has achieved enough emotional distance, even temporarily, is better equipped to have the penny drop in that moment when they say to themselves: Oh my god! It is NARCISSISM that I'm dealing with!
I think there is a moment of truth in that recognition that it would be very hard to get wrong. For me, what has happened in the years since I discovered the literature about Nism is that I have only modified my perception of the degree of my mother's narcissism, or narcissistic tendencies, or however one might put it. But the FACT of it, the reality of the behaviors (and their emotional impact on me, which continues to reveal itself over time) is unchanged. I mean, for me, it is a piece of truth.
The farther along time marches me from the first shock of recognition, the more I (thankfully) lose interest in narcissism itself, and feel more curiosity and engagement with other issues about being a human being and having a life. The most interesting (and destructive) thing about narcissism is its secretive, chameleonlike nature...how a smooth genial "personality" can allow the N (or Nish person) to function quite smoothly in the social world, year after decade, even throughout a long life. But behind the curtain, some person, often a child, is paralysed in the wings, knowing only that something is wrong.
Finding out that this something has a name has been one of the biggest revelations in my life.
Hops
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I think unconditional love does exist. Lots of parents love their babies unconditionally. This is probably the most healthy occurrence. But I also think that there is an unhealthy unconditional love. The victim of an abusive parent loves the parent in this way. Even though a normal reaction would be to hate or fear, and sometimes these feelings also exist, there is love. I see it here all the time. We still love our parents who abused us and ruined our lives. What is it based on? Even once our illusions have been replaced by understanding of their syndromes and actions. Even when they continue to make us suffer throughout our lives until they finally die at a ripe old age, after sucking us dry well into our own middle age. We still love them, with love they never earned.
Plucky
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Wow.
Deep.
Hard.
Plucky, I think what's unhealthy is not the love, but the attachment.
When love gets more spacious and stretchy, and has no relation to dependency any more, I think then it cannot harm the one who loves. Because it's a full choice then.
Hops
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Well, maybe you're right. It isn't really love, we just think it's love because we never had healthy love. It is attachment, for sure. The attachment of a host to its parasite. A lethal combination of duty, guilt, habit, fear, and resignation.
Plucky
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Hops,
I enjoyed your explanation of what it feels like to understand narcissism. You cannot underestimate the power of understanding narcissism and how it not only helps you in your relationship with the narcissist but also with others. Both my mother and my husband made me feel as if I was responsible for their behavior. Therefore, I felt I had the power to make everyone behave in certain ways. Realizing I have nothing to do with other people's problems or behavior is so freeing. Not accepting responsibility for people's bad behavior is powerful...raising a child to have no emotional boundaries is one of the legacies of narcissism.
Gap
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If I may say so, it's not love...it's more than attachment...it is Stockholm syndrome, fuelled by the abuser, usually.
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For me, I've to re-learn what love is. My parents gave me a twisted example of love. With them, love is something you earn by "being good" (i.e. meeting their needs). There is no room for making mistakes, learning from those mistakes. If I messed up, then I didn't deserve their love. Yet, as I type this now, I see that for them it was just the opposite. I was obligated to love them. I HAD to love them no matter what. This meant saying nice things about them in front of people. (This was big for them.), oh and many other things that were just illusion and not honest love.
They didn't need to do anything to earn my love, but I had to earn theirs. Even more so, they could do anything and I still had to love them.
My husband and my kids have helped me to see a more healthy view of love. Love the person not their actions. It's confusing for me. I remember the time I got into a minor fender bender with our new car. The first thought that crossed my mind was that my husband would leave me. It just isn't natural to me that I don't need to earn other people's love. Yet, I would never expect my husband and children to earn my love.
I guess I'm saying that for any of us who grew up in this twisted world of love, the idea of unconditional love is going to be very mixed up. I don't want anyone telling me that I HAVE to love anyone, yet I do love my children unconditionally. I can't imagine a thing they could do that would make me not love them, it doesn't feel overwhelming to me.
Is unconditional love a choice or an obligation?
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wow jynna,
I am speachless. That is very insightful. What you've said resonates with me, although I couldn't verbalize it.
GAP - I totally agree. Understanding N we gain a game plan and heal... both invaluable.
Plucky - thanks for not seeing my question as an attack (I don't know why but I was feeling slightly attacked by your response - even though that was not your intent, I don't think - another reason why continued communication is so important for ferretting out what people are really trying to say). I tried to phrase it so that it would come across more like - what do you mean? Rather than: you're wrong! The you're wrong would have been based on my (false) understanding of what you'd just stated.
Does this make sense? If so, did i succeed? How did it feel to read what I wrote? need feedback, if possible.
laura and hops,
I am having great difficulty with this concept of whether to have contact with N parents or not, so finding it very difficult to respond. What's right for me (cutting off all contact with my N parents) is not necessarily right for everyone else, I realize. But this choice I've made does seem to be totally right for me at this time, even if I can't easily explain why.
hugs,
bean
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I would like to think that I love my children unconditionally, but they've never done anything which would ever test that. If my child turned into a Jeffrey Dahmer, or one of those kids who shot up Columbine HS, I'm not so sure I could sustain that love. But I have to assume there were signals in their childhoods and adolesence which would have indicated that they were troubled individuals, which no one was paying attention to.
I don't think I ever had unconditional love for my parents--certainly never felt it from them. There was a time when I felt very close to my mother and did everything I could to protect her from my father. After she chose to support him in his abuse rather than me in my attempt to protect her in so many instances, I finally gave up and my love for her just fell away over time. I've never felt anything for my brother since he was a little boy. I cherished him when he was little and was like his second mother (we're 10 years apart). But that love was never returned once he was old enough to understand what love meant, and I had to let go of him too.
I'm always amazed to hear people say "my mother or my father has done thus and such to me, but they're my parents and I still love them." I just felt nothing, aside from the occasional guilt for not feeling anything. It was easier than to continuously be hurt by their treatment of me. When they died I felt relief, as I was relieved of feeling any more guilt.
Jynna,
I just read your post. I agree about the earning of love. I feel that too. I just loved my xnh, but always felt insecure in his love for me. Rightfully so, I guess, since he never really did. But his leaving has left me feeling even more insecure about loving someone else. I do feel like if I am not continuously working at it, I will be left again.
Brigid
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Brigid,
One of my brothers actually said that the reason my mother couldn't be a loving and good mother to all of her children was that she got some "bad seeds" for children that drove her crazy and spent their entire childhoods antagonizing her. He acknowledge I did nothing to antagonize her as a child but just annoyed her with my being. This guy is actually raising kids....I couldn't talk sense into him. Mind you the children he is calling bad seeds were cute, smart, hardworking children that never did anything wrong besides basic childhood silliness.
He refused to buy my theory that the children weren't annoying she was annoyed. The way to raise healthy well adjusted children is to let them know that if all the kids in the world were lined up and you got to pick which ones you wanted you would pick the ones you got. You respect them and give them a voice. If a child truly receives unconditional love, respect and a voice I don't think you will ever have to worry about them becoming a mass murderer.
Gap
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Hear, hear.
Bad seeds my cantaloupe!
Grrrrrrr. Original sin. Phoeey.
Hops
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Sov,
I felt horrified when I read this:
I finally gave my father a book about NPD and I asked him to please read it.
Afterwards I said, "Do you think that any of this applies to you?"
and he said, in a very even, non emotional tone, with a HINT of pleasure...
"What if it ALL applies to me?"
I was so stunned. I coudlnt speak.
A few weeks later he totally and completely dismissed me from his life.
Full-blown NPD is really breathtaking. Much less in a parent.
It seems like a theme to me, also, how narcissistic parents toy with their children about inheritance. Fairness is insignificant, the security they might contribute is just another weapon.
I salute you, Sov, for declaring yourself safe from him. You are.
Hops
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Dear Sov,
Thanks for sharing...what a story! Thank God you found a sane therapist. My NPD husband only connected with one therapist and just like with your Dad the therapist was a narcissist. When I asked him could he help my husband (this was before I knew what narcissim was) he said if he came and saw him everyweek he could keep him balanced and behaving better. I was new to therapy at the time but even I knew that wasn't a game plan. I now realize he would have basically been a good source a nacissistic supply for my husband and for $175 a week he would keep him balanced. It seemed crazy at the time and I remembered saying you can't be human medicine to you patients, shouldn't the end game be you get better, gain insight and function on your own. (I now know of people who have seen this guy weekly for over 5 years).
My brother who just had an awakening to the fact my mother is NPD wants to give her a book. My gut said: Very bad idea...your story validates my prediction. How sad.
Regards,
Gap
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Dear Sov & Safe ,
My n parent thought he threw me over a cliff and I really owe him a great big thank you.
I am now living my life happily and snapped out of the trance and I had a lovely fall though space and made a quite nice landing.
I have freedom and he knows it. Its not a case of win or lose I am not in his game that's all no hard feelings.
As a matter of fact I keep his secret about child abuse well there's other folks that know also my oldsest sis...................
100 years from now what will his money mean what does it mean now nothing.
What matters is love that's it. :D 8) :lol:
moon
oh yeah remember to love them too they need it a lot
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Plucky - thanks for not seeing my question as an attack (I don't know why but I was feeling slightly attacked by your response - even though that was not your intent, I don't think - another reason why continued communication is so important for ferretting out what people are really trying to say). I tried to phrase it so that it would come across more like - what do you mean? Rather than: you're wrong! The you're wrong would have been based on my (false) understanding of what you'd just stated.
Does this make sense? If so, did i succeed? How did it feel to read what I wrote? need feedback, if possible.
Hi Penelope,
what, where is it, did I miss something, did you mean me?
Plucky
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heh.
yes, but it seems insignificant now. If you get a chance, maybe just reread what I wrote in response to what you wrote and give me feedback if it sounded defensive or attacking. I think I'm just getting very insecure about this, as I'm accused of it daily at work (being attacking when I respond to my boss)
have a good day
bean
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hey stormy,
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But you know - none of us loves unconditionally. Not really.
hmmm. Do you think I'm naive then, expecting my mother to love me, baby bean, unconditionally. Even when I throw up and cry and have poopy diapers, and get sick and keep her up all night?
Shocked
bean
Hi Penelope,
do you mean this? That was Stormy. Was it something else? You'll have to point it out - I'm not getting it. Was it on another thread? If the question is, was I offended, I guess the answer would have to be no! I am curious though - maybe I didn't read it. My reading is kind of spotty. Last week I posted without realising the thread had a second page. Also, my very own blind spot, recently discovered, is my occasional insensitivity. I'd like to work on this, if I can get others to point things out to me.
Plucky
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I do not love my parents and I have never loved my parents. I realised that recently and it’s been quite liberating.
Portia, I am with you on this. I recently realised that my mother, who I loved desperately and intensely all of my childhood and much of my adulthood, I no longer love, well maybe just a tiny bit. I just observe her. After having children, I realise that what she did for me, she ought to have done. She was not a terribly bad parent, but she could have been much better, and today she is terrible. I no longer feel I owe her my life. I have to save my life from her.
A lethal combination of duty, guilt, habit, fear, and resignation.
All not necessary for life! And not lethal either. Fear of what?? Being alone?
Many fears. That we will somehow hurt the person who is hurting or has hurt us the most. That the world will judge us as harsh and ungrateful. That our perceptions are not accurate so we'd better be a good child just in case. And on and on.....
Pluckily,
P
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My father has never been diagnosed as NPD by a professional but he has absolutely no regard for the whole field of psychiatry and psychology. In the late '80s he was forced to see pshychiatrists by the courts and he did so most unwillingly and then told his own attorney that he would go along with the psychiatrists to get out of his legal trouble.
Before that his doctor who was also a personal friend sent him to Mayo's for a workup. But Mayo's really screwed the whole thing up by scheduling the psychological evaluation two days after the physical exams so of course my father refused to stay the extra time. That is one of those tradgic mixups because had he had that evaluation it could have helped all of us so much and gotten us much needed help and perhaps started the healing process as a family back over 25 years ago.
He has been diagnosed as OCD and my psychologist, who has met him, thinks he may fall under NPD. My mother on the other hand has been diagnosed as having N traits. She is so normal and tolerable in comparison to my father. And as others have said - NPD explains my father to a tee and explains my life so completely whereas nothing else has even come close. So for me - I am fully convinced of my father's NPD regardless of what anyone else might say. It gives me a framework to really make progress in my healing where I have just coasted along for so many years before. Now I am making progress - excruciatingly painful progress. The NPD label allowed me to finally turn the corner on what my T has called for years - the double bind. And in part the double bind allowed me to shin a flashlight on what my parents did to me but I couldn't get passed my responsibility for what they had done. They had always told me it was my fault and until I found NPD I couldn't quite get beyond that.
Ever so slowly - gaining strength
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GS
The NPD label allowed me to finally turn the corner on what my T has called for years - the double bind.
Thank you so much for sharing this information. I was wondering if you could possibly share some examples of double binds, for those who might be new to all of this, and not sure what it means. If you prefer not to, that's fine too, but I wanted to ask, because I think these terms need to be explained to help prevent others from staying in bad situations if they might be able to or better off, getting OUT of them.
Other terms that would be interesting to discuss: Bait-n-Switch, Unspoken Rules, Power Posturing, Silent Treatment (Withdrawl of Affection), Projection.
Anyone care to comment...I'll start
Power Posturing: The boss tells the employee about a wonderful raise, benefits, an awesomely high position....but one thing...she has to give him "favors" in order to obtain it...and, further, if she reports this, she will be FIRED!
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Here's an example of what I mean - someone else may have a different meaning.
When I was a child I once complained to my parents of my brother tormenting me by banging on my door for over 5 minutes jsut to upset me. The night before I had been up late at a spend the night party. My father punished me because I should not have been up late and because I should not be a tattle tale.
Another - As Christmas and birthday approached, if I let on about a toy or a particular item that I wanted, I learned that I could be sure not to get it, but I was expected to undeniable gratitude for what I did receive. The expression of gratitude was never sufficient. The double-bind - you can't have what you really want and you better be greatful for what you get but no matter what you say you will still sound ungreatful.
That's a couple of examples from my life. The make me sad and lonely even as I write them. But worst of all they have left me tied in knots and feeling wretchedly impotent to solve my problems in life. And that's the dung pile I'm still trying to climb through.
Gaining Strength.
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Dear Gaining Strength,
Your story sounds just like mine. My oldest brother tormented me everyday of my life until I was 15. When I was little I use to try and get my mother to help...her reaction was sticks and stones will break your
bones.....I remember as a child thinking I'd rather he hit me then abuse me. She was also verbally abusive so she was just giving herself and excuse.
I never asked for what I wanted as a child. I think I knew instinctively no one would get it for me. Ironically my mother is constantly "accusing" me of always doing what I wanted. One time when she asked me what I wanted her to buy for one of my children I got up my nerve and mentioned an edition of monopoly that had been designed by Michael Graves and was available at Target. She bought another Monopoly. At that moment I realized how brilliant I was as a child to never ask for what I wanted because I never would have gotten that item but rather whatever she wanted. I subconsciously limited my disappointment.
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My daughter commented to me the other day that she had received a gift from her grandmother and she was once again struck how her grandmothers buys gifts that she would like with not once ounce of consideration for the receiver of the gift, in comparison to her Aunt (my sister in law) that buys her gifts that reflect her style and who she is. I think that analogy sums up a narcissist, it is never about you, they never respect you or your wishes and desires.
You have been delivered a tough break having the parents you have but you can overcome their legacy. I didn't start my psychological journey until I was thirty. I ended up marrying a narcissist and it took years of reading and therapy to get strong enough to break away and get a divorce. When I turned to my foo for support I found them mean and judgmental.....more therapy and more reading. I'm finally at a point in my life where I really understand how to deal with narcissism and not let it get to me. I don't let any of them fill my head with their crazy interpretation of who I am and what I want, I don't tell them anything that could potentially be used against me, I don't share my dreams and thoughts, I ignore their judging ways, I don't engage in their judging of others, I smile when they tell me what I should do and how I should do it.
I am open to constructive input and criticism from people I love and trust, none of which are narcissist. Learn to trust your gut, your interpretation of your parent's behavior in the stories you wrote about is correct, they weren't fair. You feel lonely because it is hard to right when the people that are suppose to love and care for you make you feel so wrong. Knowing you are right when you have been taught unfairly that you are wrong is a hard legacy to break. Once you get over the fear of breaking away from your family (I have done it on an emotional level, I simply shake my head and don't react when I'm around them) you will feel so much better. I have given up hope of the worst offenders changing and have strengthed my relationship with the supportive relatives. They won't help you solve your problems only you can...babysteps, trust your gut, you sound like you have a great sense of right and wrong, now use it.
Gap
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I do not love my parents and I have never loved my parents. I realised that recently and it’s been quite liberating.
Yes, same here Portia. This goes for my brothers as well except my middle brother. I do have warm feelings for him. However, I don't know him very well any more. Nor does he know me. I am not the same person I was growing up.
A lethal combination of duty, guilt, habit, fear, and resignation.
All not necessary for life! And not lethal either. Fear of what?? Being alone?
Interesting. I would say for me it is out of habit and fear that I 'loved' my parents when I was a child. However, mostly it was instinct. In order to survive my attrocious childhood I had to pretend right a long with them. I never loved them, I tolerated them because I wanted to survive. I realized several years ago that I no longer had to play that game. I could be true to me, keep the protective distance, and I didn't have to pretend any more.
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For me, I've to re-learn what love is. My parents gave me a twisted example of love. With them, love is something you earn by "being good" (i.e. meeting their needs). There is no room for making mistakes, learning from those mistakes. If I messed up, then I didn't deserve their love. Yet, as I type this now, I see that for them it was just the opposite. I was obligated to love them. I HAD to love them no matter what. This meant saying nice things about them in front of people. (This was big for them.), oh and many other things that were just illusion and not honest love.
They didn't need to do anything to earn my love, but I had to earn theirs. Even more so, they could do anything and I still had to love them.
My husband and my kids have helped me to see a more healthy view of love. Love the person not their actions. It's confusing for me. I remember the time I got into a minor fender bender with our new car. The first thought that crossed my mind was that my husband would leave me. It just isn't natural to me that I don't need to earn other people's love. Yet, I would never expect my husband and children to earn my love.
I guess I'm saying that for any of us who grew up in this twisted world of love, the idea of unconditional love is going to be very mixed up. I don't want anyone telling me that I HAVE to love anyone, yet I do love my children unconditionally. I can't imagine a thing they could do that would make me not love them, it doesn't feel overwhelming to me.
Is unconditional love a choice or an obligation?
Oh Jynna - that's lovely, but you know that if one of your kids was caught red-handed, literally, in a Columbine type situation, and wasn't blind drunk or stoned, and said he or she had enjoyed every minute and couldn't wait to do it again - [God forbid all of this, may it never be, not even in their video games!] - if you didn't re-evaluate your feelings for them, I'd be very concerned about you.
Ted Kaczynski was turned in by his own brother.
Scott Peterson's half sister was not in the least sorry to see him go.
There comes a time when 'unconditional love' just isn't a remotely sane response, anymore. And this isn't totally far fetched off the wall thinking - real, normal, average people have to deal with such things, sadly more often than we know.
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Bean - I hate to say it, but even maternal love is conditional to an extent. Go read about oxytocin and the bonding power of a baby's smile.
"The infant's smile and the parents' responses to it suggest a theory as to the evolutionary advantage that smiling confers. It appears to transform the infant's first, most fundamental relationship. Mothers say it is at this stage that they feel themselves to be dealing with another human being -- that they are no longer mere attendants of a screeching diaper-soiling device but people involved in an intimate relationship. The infant has at last become a person."
[note added by Stormchild: for fathers, this usually happens when the kid is long out of diapers and old enough to throw a ball ;-) ]
from here: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1175/is_v21/ai_4724963/pg_2
And theologically, even God's love is -ultimately- conditional.
For those who believe in judgement after life, the conditionality is direct and straightforward.
But it's just as conditional for those who believe that all will be ultimately saved, because for those who are warped or evil to be accepted into the kingdom, they first have to be repaired, or they would bring Hell into Heaven. Choosing to fix them is a precondition for rewarding them with eternal love!
But this doesn't really matter.
Love is a miracle.
Any time we experience it, anywhere, from anyone [human or animal], we are blessed.
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At that moment I realized how brilliant I was as a child to never ask for what I wanted because I never would have gotten that item but rather whatever she wanted. I subconsciously limited my disappointment.
I just skimmed the last page of the thread ( I've been away fro a week, not kept up ) but this leapt out at me Gap.
That's so much what has to happen, limit your disappointment, and it's only years later you realise with more disappointment all the times missed when that 'skill' did a disservice and limited something else.
You feel lonely because it is hard to right when the people that are suppose to love and care for you make you feel so wrong. Knowing you are right when you have been taught unfairly that you are wrong is a hard legacy to break.
yes it is, a lifelong attention to detail...