Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: pennyplant on October 31, 2006, 09:03:14 PM
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In a previous post I mentioned that my husband said recently that he didn't realize when he met me that I had so much anger. He just thought I was a nice, happy person. And I was happy when I was with him, but that couldn't fix the rest of my life.
Since coming here I've made a lot of progress thanks to all I have learned here from you and from also being able to post my thoughts and have others read them.
This weekend something happened (that I won't go into here as it is personal). But I need some help with the anger it brought to the surface. My husband can't help because it is affecting him too much. And he has many similar problems, due to voicelessness, that I have. So, we are not able to help each other at this time. I am not sure where I'm going with this yet, so the help I need might be just to have the freedom to try and pin it down in this post. It seems "big" to me. This trouble I'm having with my anger. It has always been there. So many causes. And I have always been afraid of it because of what it has led to. Not being liked, feeling humiliated, utter, complete and total frustration. You know, the kind of frustration where you're just a little kid and crying and screaming and just getting laughed at and there is no where to go with any of it. No relief. No refuge. I cannot have been the only little kid who had to live like that. But it has sure felt like it most of my life. So, I taught myself to bottle it up. It came out often. But the goal was to obliterate it. This anger.
I figured something out awhile back, but I wasn't sure if I was on the right track because it didn't feel like an aha! It seemed correct, but just some small part of it. What I figured out had to do with my co-worker who triggers such intense dislike from me. The one who is junior to me yet seems to not have to work as hard as me, etc. It finally occurred to me that I am replaying a very significant dynamic from my childhood. She reminds me of how my sister, who was younger than me and behaved quite poorly at all times, still managed to run the entire family. I always had to give in or give up anything I wanted, or might want, in order to keep the peace, or get ready to keep the peace. Always. It was a daily, sometimes hourly, consideration in my life. My mother always gave the impression that she was keeping things fair or even. But in reality it was not fair or even. The table was always tipped in my sister's favor. And even if things had been materially fair and even, there is a drawback to fairness. If you treat everybody equally, well, then where is anybody's motivation to contribute fairly? My sister could lie, misbehave, be all kinds of trouble for everyone, and still receive what I received. Often she even received more. Materially and attention-wise.
I think I'm seeing the same thing, or being reminded of it, because of how it seems to me I am being treated, or how I am acting, at work. But this knowledge hasn't changed anything. It has just made me aware now. So, I'm somewhat angry all the time anyway. Constantly reminded.
So, this weekend, something happened which made me feel completely disregarded. Something that I had said needed to happen, well, just the opposite happened. Not the first time either. And while it was happening, I was watching it and seeing that it was done purposefully. My request was being blatantly disregarded. I had a choice of saying, stop it, and then being blamed for the bad outcome. I had a choice of doing what I did, which was to do nothing except watch. And feel my feelings. And ended up being disregarded. Which also feels like being blamed.
So, for the first time since coming here, I have to feel this anger. Big anger. It is different now. I think there is less internal pressure since I'm not bottling it up. I think there is a lot of it in there, though. So, I still feel the need to be very careful. It makes me feel very restless. It's hard to sleep.
This sounds so dry and clinical. That's not how it feels. It feels like I'm on a different planet. All by myself. I can't think of a thing to do with this except keep feeling it. My husband is beyond frustrated with me. For awhile I actually thought to myself, I should go sleep with someone else and really betray him. He still likes to throw that in my face every so often. Then I remembered, duh! those were emotional affairs, those guys didn't really want to do the things you thought they wanted to do. They were just playing a game. And not even thinking for one moment about your feelings getting hurt. Just ran roughshod over your heart for no big reason other than maybe they were bored or something. And remember, you're not actually capable of connecting with normal people who might connect back. If an affair can be considered a normal connection. You silly, silly girl.
I don't know how long it takes to feel all the anger I have in me. There is a lot of it. I don't know how it's going to come out. So, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, oh it's going to take forever. The rest of your life. Of course, I can't really know such a thing. In fact, it is quite unlikely to take that long. It's just that it doesn't feel the way I thought it would feel when it started to assert itself. I thought I would cry more. Or feel a really big aha! It doesn't feel that way at all. I can feel it all over my body, coursing around in a very insolent manner. Something I'm completely unused to. Does anger feel different when it is felt by someone who is "aware"? I wasn't aware before I came here. I was uninformed. So, is that why it feels so odd? How healthy is it to let anger out? I don't necessarily think that venting is all that healthy. But is letting my anger exist and be felt, is that the same as venting? I don't think so. I'm not really willing for it to be.
I think that many big problems are feeding this anger. There doesn't seem to be a refuge for me from any of it. I go to work and am triggered by the unfairness of the place, the built-in disrespect, the dynamic with that co-worker. I come home and there is my husband with his accusing face. This is how my life felt when I was fourteen and everything fell apart and went wrong. Back then I got lost in it. This time I hope to see the forest for the trees. But it feels like such a burden. I have always thought, you can survive anything the first time it happens. But to go through it again, having the knowledge of what is coming, that is much more of a trick. Much, much harder to succeed with.
Did any of you ever conquer or recover from this much anger? Come out on the other side of it and then be able to go on and feel anger as it occurs and not let it become a disease again? What does it feel like to be on the other side of it? I don't sense that it was a problem for a lot of you here. It seems like other emotions or issues come up more often than this consuming type of anger. But maybe I'm wrong about that and it just hasn't come up as a topic lately.
Floundering here, I know. But I've known for awhile that I would have to deal with this. It just kind of came up now by accident. God at work again in my life. I sure didn't see it coming. But it's here now. It seems like this is going to take awhile.
I think I have mentioned most of what I'm thinking about. My hope is that there is someone of you out there who has actually had to deal specifically with the emotion of anger in your own body. But any feedback at all has got to be helpful since I'm feeling very ignorant at the moment. I think it is possible that many of you have had to deal with an angry person in your life and that this post may act as a trigger. Because of that possibility I won't feel offended if few people feel up to responding. Hopefully the title of this post properly reflects the content. Responses or not, I'm going to be working on this anyway. It will go the way it goes. Must be I still have some hope for a good outcome.
Pennyplant
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Oh Pennyplant... oh God, I feel for you girl.
I don't know where to even begin.
I was so hurt when I first came here and so furious... and some of the hurt was pain I had been carrying all my life... I'm telling you this not to divert the focus to me. But to assure you that I DO know what it is like to be so angry. So angry. And so unheard. Ignored. Even mocked, as you say.
I know the unfair bit too, the part where I always had to accommodate "the pet", where I was always expected to let everyone else have their turn first but somehow, my turn NEVER came. I know that one. And the notion, too, that fairness = treating everyone exactly the same no matter how badly they behave? PP, that's not fairness. That's a con job fed to you by a BS artist. Real fairness pays attention to how people behave, and responds appropriately to each person. It doesn't reward slackers or pets at the expense of people who work their hearts out.
God, I wish I could take some of the anger weight off of you. All I can do is say, you are doing the right thing by feeling it and expressing it and not being ashamed of it.
Anger is a signal, it is a message, it is the exact same thing as the pain response but in your feelings instead of your nerves. Anger means that something is wrong, a boundary is crossed. And the problem is that just like pain, if it doesn't get taken care of it accumulates - if you keep standing on a broken leg it doesn't heal, same with anger, if it doesn't get a chance to heal it just gets worse.
Let me share something with you - it probably won't 'help' right now but hold on to it, it does make sense later on. Anger is one of the best servants you can possibly have. Anger is like radar, it's like second sight, if you learn how to use it and work with it it will alert you to abusers before they have a chance to abuse you, it will alert you to Ns and to situations that are traps.
But it's a terrible master, and that's the problem, we're just not taught how to manage it and use its energy to give us power rather than taking our strength.
Accept your anger. Call it a friend. Ask it to tell you where the problems are... Do what you are doing... you will find that it diminishes when it knows that it is being heard and that the best thing you can do for it is to tell it that you believe it... you may be surprised, telling it you hear it and believe it may make you cry with relief.
This doesn't mean to wallow in it or use it as an excuse to lash out. But you can burn it, use it as fuel. Can you exercise? Do sit ups or push ups [wall pushups if you're not in shape for the ones on the floor], or lift weights? Your body needs to burn some cortisol, anger touches off the fight or flight reaction, if you work your body you help reduce that somewhat. And then you can not only hear its message, but you can be calmer even as you feel angry, and you can think more clearly about what you actually CAN do. And there will be things you can do. Constructive things.
There will be.
I hope this helps.
I hope this helps too:
"By the desperate 'n' confused
Emotion of the youth
I was brought to Crisis land
Where after getting checked for fleas
And barricades of embassies
I was sculpted to be overworked and silent
But since the early age
I broke out of the cage
And learned how to make marching drums
From a fish can
And I knew I'll run away
And so without further delay
I said "Two tears in a bucket
M********k it!"
And it seems like I ran and ran
Through the garbage and quicksand
And after getting checked for fleas
and barricades of embassies
I would never never never never
wanna be young again!...
But sudden wind it stole my hat
And I went on chasing it
Before I was just another burned out carnie
Every freak on every day
Lives a life one certain way
And that way is ain't no nothin' but a birthright~
But since the early age
I broke out of the cage...
And it seems like I ran and ran
through the garbage and quicksand
and after getting checked for fleas
and barricades of embassies
I would never never never never
wanna be young again..."
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OMG Penny,
You have hit the nail on the head for me as well. My sister was always given everything so that we would be "treated equally" when in fact she got everything and I got nothing... The only thing that I can think of that I had that she didn't was that my father had done some remodeling in my room first and hadn't gotten to my sister's yet. My mother was so pissed about that. She nagged him constantly about when he was going to "finally get something done for the rest of us" or something along those lines. Not that he didn't work to support her lazy ass and atrocious spending habits. At any rate, I never realized that she did this to me... used the "trying to make it fair" excuse all the time. I am feeling so much rage just thinking about it now.
Penny, I spent YEARS with that pent up rage. And I know EXACTLY what you mean. You want to yell loud enough to rip through your chest and beat something and scream and scream. I haven't felt it in a while, but you just brought it back to me.What a horrible and awful feeling. I can't believe it has rushed back like this.
I don't know how to help you, penny. I will tell you what I believe has helped me. When I went to AA, I had to learn to let go of resentments. For someone like me, resentments will lead me right back to the bottle (or worse). As much as I fought it, I had to forgive them their wrong behavior and see them as sick people. And they are sick... spiritually, emotionally...I even had to pray for them (generaliities...may they be healthy, prosperous, peaceful). It is hard to do.I really want for someone to stand up and point to them and say, "How could you treat your daughter that way???" But it is not going to happen. And vindictiveness can also not be part of my life.
Penny, take deep relaxing breaths when the anger hits.Fix an image in your mind that makes you happy. Think of your nice life with YOUR family and what you have accomplished.
((((((((((((((((((Penny)))))))))))
Love, Beth
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Oh, you guys, thank you. I'm shaking. So, we must be on the right track!
Stormy.... Gogol Bordello? You're amazing....
Thank you, thank you so much, I will read again tomorrow.
PP
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Pennyp.
Well I will tell ya what I used to be afraid of being mad angry but not now I can go in my back yard throw rocks go out to the desert and
screammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm and I do and do not feel bad at all it feels great.
But at home screaming is not a good thing sooooooooooooooo
When alone or Mr moon has been a good coach I slam pillows with tennis rackets and say what ever it is that lies beneath the anger.
There are so many different ways to let go of anger !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do not be afraid of it as Storm says I was for years I also recently went though a process that rid
me of years of pent up anger and I let it run its course
BUT IT WAS RELEASED IN A VERY HEALING WAY NO ONE TOLD ME WHAT TO DO IT HAPPENED.
I let it happen Use your intuition to tell you the right release.
AWWWWWWWWWWWWWW PP let it rip.
Its OK TO BE ANGRY
Also there are special T's that can guide you though intense anger Mine just happened because I could no longer hold it in I know the feeling well.
What's nice girls like us want to feel anger for?????????????? blah blah blah
Find a way that is good for you as Storm says excerise is really good I just love hitting a pillow with a tennis racket or just plain stomping your feet in socks on a nice carpeted floor at the same time you could choose to vocalize whats pissing you off .
NICE PEOPLE GET PISSED OFF TOO..................................................iT'S OK TO GET ANGRY 8)
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((PENNY)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
MoonLight
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Moony,
I love the idea of throwing rocks in the desert and screaming!!!!!!!!!!
Love, Beth
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I have this vision of Mr and Mrs Moon playing pillow tennis.
Moon's serve: "My dad is a mean jerk!" WHACK!!!! Beautiful topspin on that flying pillow.
Mr. Moon's serve: "And he smells bad, too!" WHACK!!!!!! Whooee, what a backhand on THAT flying pillow.
end of the game, and the score, of course, is: love-love.
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Hi Ya Beth ,
Yeah I can be creative huh got to pick special rocks for how heavy the anger is the big ones are great and it's even better if there is a cool stream near by and then throw the rock of choice in and feel the motion and the anger leave though the rock and scream and then listen for the plop of the "anger rock"in to
the water .
Also for indoor anger fun there's exercise ,stomping and the pillow and the tennis racket thingy. 8)
love to you (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((BETH)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
It's OK to feel angry and when released toxins are lifted from your being.
It's a good thing.I was taught not only to smile and worry about my parents feelings but never but never ever get mad!!!!!
Pennyp
Remember you are beloved (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Stormy I still owe mr moon $170.00 for the last session
love love to you :D
moon
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Pennyp
Nice people do get angry It took me years to give myself permisson TO GET MAD.
I do not get angry often but it is a red flag .I do believe you understand your reasons ..............
That was the hard part for me the easy thing was to express it in a way that did not hurt anyone .
I am sure you know this all ready.
Also it depends on how symbolic you want it to be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For me rocks and a good stream are the best.
But all kidding aside hitting a pillow hard with a tennis racket works.
Anger is a serious topic needing a little comic relief.
Much love to you PP
M
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Pennyplant-
I have lived a life filled with rage and then all of a sudden, after trying, really trying and desparately longing to overcome my anger and pert up and overflowing rage one day I noticed that I was no longer angry, no longer raging. After years of being unable to control my anger and trying to suddenly it was gone. That was 8 or 9 months ago and it is a miraculous happening in my life.
Today, I am processing anxiety and I would describe it much the way you described your anger. In my family I was constrantly criticized, belittled and abandoned. I was the youngest and the only girl. The boys were allowed to do so many things that I couldn't and the explanation ALWAYS was that, "Well you're a girl and you're too young." But funny thing - no matter how old I got I never was old enough and I never did get over being a girl - so I was just kind of out of luck.
Every night I have nightmares about being left out, doors closing in my face, trying to talk about an impending danger and people ignoring me or laughing at me - even to their own detriment. So obvious it is to me that this is always from my childhood and has grown into my adult experience - what I feared most has become reality.
But what I really want to tell you - so much more than that I can truly identify with you is what you can do about it. You are experiencing a repeat of your family pattern. Your anger has to be there. But now you have a chance to break this pattern. You are in a crucial time and place to experience very significant healing. You have seen the pattern for what it is. But now you must change the way you responded to this pattern in your FOO. Now you have a very, very important opportunity to respond in a healthy, healing manner and this is where remarkable healing can take place.
Exactly how should you respond? What is a healthy reaction? That is not so evidently simple other than - not in anger and probably not emotionally at all. Steip back as much as you can in order to get some objectivity. Talk to yourself as though you were someone else - perhaps even try to see this whole experience as though you are the subordinate worker. Try to imaging someone you admire being in your shoes and how they would handle it. Come up with as many scenarios as possible. Let your imagination go but DO NOT waste your time with revenge scenarios. Keep your heart open for clever responces, cold responces, disinterested responces - as many various responces as possible and suddenly you will know which one is the HEALING response for you.
Go and read Stormchild's posting on patterns. You are in one. We relive our patterns over and over until suddenly after working them and working them something shifts. And that's where the healing breaks in. You have a great opportunity for healing here. If you can shift your perspective and see that you will not be afraid of what you are in the middle of but will be able to welcome it and see that this can be truly a good space to be in, a transformative experience. Open your heart to the healing solution. It is close at hand.
Your friend - Gaining Strength.
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Hi Pennyplant, I had enormous anger.
We feel angry when we feel threatened.
When our sense of ‘me’ as having value as a person, is threatened.
The threats we perceive may not be ‘real’ – we’re reacting to how we were treated as kids.
I was once called the ‘board rager’ here and I was! This was me: :evil: Loads of anger and some dangerous rage had built up in me. Like you I was subjected to mocking as a very young kid. I was mercilessly ignored too and being ignored is a huge anger trigger for me, one that thankfully keeps being tested here and which is helping me to overcome it!
I still FEEL angry of course. But it’s an emotion and it’s okay to feel all emotions, especially the ‘bad’ ones like rage, anger, guilt, shame, envy, spite, contempt, scorn……they all tell us something about how we’ve been programmed to react (I found after anger that my feelings of contempt and scorn were very useful pointers for me: as soon as I feel myself ‘scoffing’ at someone, it tells me I feel threatened).
And those emotions, those reactions…Dr G said something about where they come from, which helped me. Here we are, he said:
Many of us on this board can find at the deepest layers of our selves (if you consider the self to be onion-like) little or nothing of value. This is not a misread of memory, but a realistic imprint of the textual and subtextual messages we received from family, peers, and others.
These wounds are scarred over, and we try (sometimes desperately) to keep them closed. We are not always successful however, particularly in the face of criticism—even when the criticism comes from people we do not know very well.
The result is almost unbearable (if not unbearable) pain and despair as our worthlessness and voicelessness are fully exposed. (Therapy, in fact, results in the exposing of this pain—and resisting the inclination to re-cover it quickly—so the wound can heal naturally over time in the context of a new loving attachment.)
Dr G is talking about feelings of worthlessness there, and anger is part of us protecting ourselves against those feelings of not measuring up, of being belittled and mistreated. Anger tells us how much we were hurt. It’s such an important emotion, if not the important emotion.
Some basic info here:
http://www.dianashulman.com/anger_management.html
http://www.soundfeelings.com/free/anger.htm (I have found anger-release music very helpful – Garbage for example or teen-angst-angry-rock)
Suppressing anger is bad for your heart and your general health. It will eat you from inside. Be angry all the time, it’s okay, it will not last forever and it has to come out. :D
About the specific thing that happened to you PP: are you sure that it was being done on purpose – I mean, was the intention not to do whatever the other person wanted to do, was the purpose exactly and only to upset you? (It might have been on purpose: the other person could be acting out their anger against their caregivers, against you....)
If you say ‘stop it’ that’s your right. Someone might try and blame you for the outcome, but that’s not the issue. The fact that you are feeling bad is already a bad outcome. You matter. Your feelings matter. :D
There is aggression (action through anger) and assertiveness (action through self-respect). The first, aggression, gets us into problems with others. Assertiveness allows us to state our needs and wants without threatening the other person.
Do you ever feel angry with anyone here? Angry with me? Now that would be useful! :D I’d encourage you to yell at me. A therapist would encourage you to get angry with them – to express it in a safe environment.
The other side is a lot calmer. I don’t feel rage at all now and anger, fleetingly. I decided in October 2003 that I didn’t want to die angry and I won’t, I know that now. It is frightening to face it and own it though. Lots of hugs to you PP for posting as you have. Hope something here makes sense?(((((((((((((((PP))))))))))))))))
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Hi Penny,
I had alot of rage as well and in fact I became separated from my husband for a while because of it. This got me into therapy. (not that my husband was blameless mind you) But things are much better now and we are back together happily. So I can identify with alot of the things you said.
What I wanted to tell you was that I realized that as angry as I got with my parents, my husband and all the people who were unfair to me, there was nothing that I could do to change their attitude. In fact, the only thing that I was able to do was to work on myself. It;s the most we can do. If a past sibbling or parent or co-worker is selfish and unkind, that is really not your problem. You didn't cause them to be that way. In fact their behaviour indicates that they have work to do on themselves.
Don't take responsibilty for foolishness that does not belong to you. it is other's people resonsibility to fix themselves. It's not your responsibility to fix them, or to make them see what they did to you, or to make them want to change or any thing along those lines. Just do what you can for yourself and learn to respond in ways that are benficial to you. You'll be a much happier person without the burden of other poeple's emotional baggage on your shoulder.
If you can find an outlet for your rage then this may be useful eg. some kind of sport or art or an engaging hobby. Once you fix yourself then the poeple around you will start re-acting differently to you.
Hope this helps.
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OMG Penny,
You have hit the nail on the head for me as well. My sister was always given everything so that we would be "treated equally" when in fact she got everything and I got nothing... The only thing that I can think of that I had that she didn't was that my father had done some remodeling in my room first and hadn't gotten to my sister's yet. My mother was so pissed about that. She nagged him constantly about when he was going to "finally get something done for the rest of us" or something along those lines. Not that he didn't work to support her lazy ass and atrocious spending habits. At any rate, I never realized that she did this to me... used the "trying to make it fair" excuse all the time. I am feeling so much rage just thinking about it now.
Penny, I spent YEARS with that pent up rage. And I know EXACTLY what you mean. You want to yell loud enough to rip through your chest and beat something and scream and scream. I haven't felt it in a while, but you just brought it back to me.What a horrible and awful feeling. I can't believe it has rushed back like this.
I don't know how to help you, penny. I will tell you what I believe has helped me. When I went to AA, I had to learn to let go of resentments. For someone like me, resentments will lead me right back to the bottle (or worse). As much as I fought it, I had to forgive them their wrong behavior and see them as sick people. And they are sick... spiritually, emotionally...I even had to pray for them (generaliities...may they be healthy, prosperous, peaceful). It is hard to do.I really want for someone to stand up and point to them and say, "How could you treat your daughter that way???" But it is not going to happen. And vindictiveness can also not be part of my life.
Penny, take deep relaxing breaths when the anger hits.Fix an image in your mind that makes you happy. Think of your nice life with YOUR family and what you have accomplished.
((((((((((((((((((Penny)))))))))))
Love, Beth
Beth - this is really valuable feedback and it showed up so early it might get overlooked by folks [although I know Pplant saw it and appreciated it, from her reply] -
You are so right about resentment, which I think of as fossilized anger. Kind of like plants turn to coal and then to oil under ground under pressure, anger turns to resentment. Huge amount of stored energy. Explosive. Dangerous. And once it's built up, it's so hard to find a way to release that energy safely. Which is what makes the acceptance and release and forgiveness so important.
You're describing the courageous acceptance and release that comes with working it through. So important. If we don't find a way to do this then anger does become our master, or resentment does which is even worse.
The really cool thing is that coal doesn't always turn to oil and gas under pressure under ground. Sometimes it turns to diamonds. That I think is a pretty neat analogy for the process of transforming resentment through 'working your program', learning to let go and let god, live and let live, and truly forgive.
A handful of diamonds!!!
Thanks beth, for balancing the picture.
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But I need some help with the anger it brought to the surface.
I sometimes find myself really full of anger, and have very little idea what to do with it.
When we are taught - as I was taught - to fear any strong emotions, it is (so I have read, anyway) because the people around us did not separate anger from violence. If anger is bottled up long enough, then sometimes when it does explode, it does so with an attack. In my childhood, such attacks were from my Nmum and aimed at my ob. Or from my dad and aimed at anyone in his path; really explosive. My ob has inherited both tendencies with his kids. :(
So, anger equals violence, and pain.
Then you get happiness, and if you have had anything like mine, this goes the same way. My mum used to say if you laugh too much you will end up crying. Then she made it come true. She would watch me and ob laughing, and play fighting, and find something she didn't like, or just reach the end of her rag, and explode, and start to hit him.
So, happiness equals violence, and pain.
In the end there is nowhere to go but to stifle emotional expression, and if possible also stifle emotional experience, so that you do not know what you are missing. Stay in the grey world of never feeling angry and never feeling real, complete joy.
If you are starting to feel anger again, having experienced this greyness, then I would take that as a good sign. Moving on from that to realise that anger is a feeling, not a behaviour, can be useful. You can choose your behaviour, dependant on the circumstances. You can choose to feel your anger, and write down why you are angry. You can choose to run it off on a 5 mile run. You can choose to hit pillows or throw stones, as others have said. But either way you are in control and it is your anger. It is not acceptable to choose to hurt other people or animals, but I think you already know that well enough, but anything else is ok.
It feels dangerous, and it feels like losing control to be angry, but that is because nobody taught us what to do with anger, other than being violent and lashing out. It takes a lot of working through this to learn how to channel that anger, and realise that it can be a healing thing to feel, rather than being destructive.
When d gets angry with her dad, we get a big piece of paper and write down every rude, obscene or even just true word we can think of that applies to him, in big letters and lots of colours, and all overlapping one another. And if she spells any of them wrong, I tell her off, and say I don't know what the world is coming to, that children today can't spell such words like 'thoughtless bastard', and that in my day I certainly knew how to spell them. Her anger is allowed, and it is celebrated, if that is the right word. I recommend trying that - it is really good fun.
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Minor overwhelm :cry:
punished for being happy :( scolded for wanting to be happy! :x
Oh yes there's enough to be angry about. Justifiably angry PP, at the right events and actions which involved and affected us.
Clear and emotive post October thank you. Yes: Anger = emotion = good thing, feeling is good.
Loss of control = fear (for me, a control-freak) so face it, lose control and hey-ho: I don't fall apart, I get angry but I'm still me. I live.
Edit in:
Anger music video here on you tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzZA8u-TZqM Warning! Odd visuals of men in masks and Shirley Manson singing her heart out.
October: the song is "I'm only happy when it rains", including the line "pour your misery down on me" - I was inspired to post by reading about your mother. The song is, I think, ironic and emotive at the same time.
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I grew up with lots of anger in the home and I thought it was natural to be angry, to let everything make you angry. I had not healthy ways of handling life, the world, stress......... I felt anger instead of other emotions, because I guess I learned that anger was an acceptable emotion, but sadness, depression, fear--they were not acceptable. So most everything was channeled into the anger category. It has taken a lifetime (44 years) to get to the point that I'm not so angry any more. This forum, and you PP, have been a great help to me. So has my faith, my husband, my kids.
I know what it feels like to literally feel the anger coursing through your veins. Not a great feeling :( , but at the same time it's an empowering feeling which I think is why my FOO found it to be an acceptable emotion. My parents couldn't admit they were sad or depressed, so they got angry.
The anger you're experiencing is telling you something and from what you've written it sounds to me like you're on top of the issues. If you can find a way to address the situation at work and not let it be a repeat of how you were treated as a child, then I believe that action will help relieve your anger. Course, I don't have the answer for how to do that, sorry.
But it's o.k. for you to be angry now and definitely find a way to let some of that rage go. Exercise IS good, I find that walking and talking to myself and letting out all my anger out loud seems to help. Sometimes hitting something, a pillow maybe, is good. That anger has to go somewhere, don't try to keep it bottled or it will ruin you.
I wish I could help. I will pray for you today. :)
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((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((PP)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I'm sorry. Breathe. Do it again.
love
Hops
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Pennyp ,
Hope you are doing better today.I guess there are lots of ways to handle anger .
When I was young there was no anger between my parents.
There was anger ,violence and physical abuse directed to the children .
This left myself and siblings believing we were deeply flawed.
I suppressed so much.I payed we all payed so dearly for the abuse.
With your ability to think things through taking on the anger in what ever size you wish is up to you .
It's all your choice but I do believe in feeling our feelings.
Not being afraid of any feeling is a good thing.
Much Love
moon
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Thanks Pennyplant and All for this thread. It is so relevant to me right now.
I was both angry and sad today and didn't know why - wasn't even sure it was anger - I thought, no, maybe it's sadness. I am not practiced at identifying my emotions. So with the good advice I read here, I went in my room and beat a pillow with my fists for about 30 seconds (probably not long enough). I found myself saying repeatedly through clenched teeth, "it's not my fault. its not my fault. It's NOT my FAULT!!".
Nope, not sad. . . . ANGRY!
After I beat the pillow, I cried, and was mad that I was crying. "What's up with this misery?" I thought, "I'm supposed to feel better now that I beat this $%%# pillow!!!" But then a few minutes later, I did feel a bit better. Patience.
Portia wrote:
"We feel angry when we feel threatened.
When our sense of ‘me’ as having value as a person, is threatened.
The threats we perceive may not be ‘real’ – we’re reacting to how we were treated as kids."
I think I am feeling threatened (and then angry) because my husband is feeling threatened (and then angry) because I have been setting boundaries lately. I have also been having expectations lately, and getting angry when they are not met, or when boundaries are violated. My husband is not N, but maybe he was comfortable with my lack of boundaries and expectations before (it made things easier for him when I was so flexible and agreeable to whatever he wanted (me) to do. Or at least I squelched my feelings when I was unhappy. Now I think my independence feels dangerous to him, and he tries to control what I do in small ways. I feel threatened and push back. One of us draws the line in the sand. We act like adversaries.
One of my biggest challenges is sorting out anger toward N people, and anger toward loved ones or more neutral people. Different. Very different. Confusing.
From my 30 seconds of pillow beating, I also realized I am also angry at our couples therapist. I feel like she assumes our marriage problems are my fault, cause I'm so messed up and my husband is so charming. But I think I will start another thread on that one, because I want to stick to the anger topic here.
The following bits by Liberty and Moonlight meant so much to me, I just had to highlight them:
What I wanted to tell you was that I realized that as angry as I got with my parents, my husband and all the people who were unfair to me, there was nothing that I could do to change their attitude. In fact, the only thing that I was able to do was to work on myself. It;s the most we can do. If a past sibbling or parent or co-worker is selfish and unkind, that is really not your problem. You didn't cause them to be that way. In fact their behaviour indicates that they have work to do on themselves.
Don't take responsibilty for foolishness that does not belong to you. it is other's people resonsibility to fix themselves. It's not your responsibility to fix them, or to make them see what they did to you, or to make them want to change or any thing along those lines. Just do what you can for yourself and learn to respond in ways that are benficial to you. You'll be a much happier person without the burden of other poeple's emotional baggage on your shoulder.
NICE PEOPLE GET PISSED OFF TOO..................................................iT'S OK TO GET ANGRY 8)
I also loved the comments (sorry, can't remember who it was) about acknowledging our anger as a red flag - something I should pay attention to and take a closer look at.
And a note on fast, loud, angry music - LOVE IT! I used to listen to this kind of music a lot. Sometimes sitting perfectly still, not moving a muscle. Sometimes jumping vigorously up and down until I was tired. Never understood why I liked it - it seemed so unlike me. Now I know "me" a little better. I guess it was therapeutic - I just didn't know it at the time. Maybe I should get back into it now - i seem to need it.
Thanks everybody for all your wisdom.
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A powerful angry song that I like to play is: "I become so numb" It was the theme song for the new Miami Vice movie!
Cheers!
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Everybody, this is so much more than I expected! This is going to help me so much.
Today I worked all day and felt so much stronger! Just all confident and everything. It feels like a breakthrough, an aha! like I've been waiting for. So many helpful ideas. It will take time to digest and learn the new things you've all brought up here. But how worthwhile it is.
I've thought of more things since last night but have to wait till later or tomorrow to post. I have yoga in a little while and also have to have supper.
I keep thinking the yoga will help with this issue. At first yoga felt awkward and like I was missing the main idea. Lately it feels more internalized and like I am really learning it a little at a time. And it seems related to the changes I'm feeling, especially with my feelings.
I don't feel intimidated about the anger now. It seems very do-able. I feel so supported. Thank you and I will be back tonight or tomorrow on this thread.
Pennyplant
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Reading the thread on anger was incredibly helpful to me. The comments about growing up in a household were the only emotion that was allowed was anger really struck a cord. On rare occasions I have felt rage and it is almost an out of body experience for me...I don't recognize my voice and can't stop the flow of anger. It is such a rush. When I return to "normal" I'm always shocked that I behaved in that manner. Each instance of rage involved my perception of a injustice done to one of my children that was similar to something that happened to me as a child and no adult stood up for me. I have seen these instances as red flags of unresolved pain and have sheepishly apologized to the recipient realizing my valid message was lost due to my rage.
I grew up with a mother that has rage issues and married a man that rages. To read everyones honest feedback on their rage and anger was astonishing to me. My ex husband refuse to take ownership of his rage and made discussion of it so unpleasant I would avoid discussing it. Your writing made me realize although he controls all the people in his life through his rage and anger and no one would ever have an ounce of sympathy for him and his plight....his behavior is the result of the same voicelessness I felt as a child he just took another path to hiding and stuffing his pain. Unfortunately, anger combined with narcissism is a horrible combination in that the chances of them ever admitting the problem and dealing with it is unlikely. I admire all you honesty and courage in dealing with a difficult problem.
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jacmac,
I found you comments interesting:
WHEN I WAS ANGRY IT WAS FOR GOOD REASON, I HAD BEEN ABUSED AND SILENCED AND ATTACKED - BUT WHEN MY ABUSERS WERE ANGRY IT WAS AN ANGER WITHOUT REASON - I WAS FALSELY ACCUSED, FALSELY LABELED AND VICTIMIZED.
Abusers are more then likely victims that have not faced their demons. Were they not at some time the falsely accused, the attacked and the abused. Why do some people suffer this abuse and recover while others become abusers? The say the majority of pedophiles were sexual abused as children but not all sexually abused children become pedophiles.
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jac,
Many thanks for the explanation. As a mother I'm concerned with breaking the cycle of anger and abuse. I hope by acknowledging the behavior they witnessed as young children and providing a healthier emotional environment for them will increase the odds of them l not becoming victims or abusers themselves.
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Let me share something with you - it probably won't 'help' right now but hold on to it, it does make sense later on. Anger is one of the best servants you can possibly have. Anger is like radar, it's like second sight, if you learn how to use it and work with it it will alert you to abusers before they have a chance to abuse you, it will alert you to Ns and to situations that are traps.
But it's a terrible master, and that's the problem, we're just not taught how to manage it and use its energy to give us power rather than taking our strength.
Accept your anger. Call it a friend. Ask it to tell you where the problems are... Do what you are doing... you will find that it diminishes when it knows that it is being heard and that the best thing you can do for it is to tell it that you believe it... you may be surprised, telling it you hear it and believe it may make you cry with relief.
This is pure gold. I never would have thought of this on my own. I know I can do this in my day to day life. The right words at the right time. Thanks, Stormy.
I have time tonight for a couple more comments, but I have read everything and will keep reading over and over again. This is just amazing.
PP
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I will tell you what I believe has helped me. When I went to AA, I had to learn to let go of resentments. For someone like me, resentments will lead me right back to the bottle (or worse). As much as I fought it, I had to forgive them their wrong behavior and see them as sick people. And they are sick... spiritually, emotionally...I even had to pray for them (generaliities...may they be healthy, prosperous, peaceful). It is hard to do.I really want for someone to stand up and point to them and say, "How could you treat your daughter that way???" But it is not going to happen. And vindictiveness can also not be part of my life.
Yes, Beth, I don't want to be vindictive either. It is really hard, though. A few weeks ago, I tried something that I have seen suggested here many times, about giving it over to God. Often my anger with certain people is mixed with guilt about how I contributed to the problem. I mean my real "contributions" not general, free-floating shame. So, in not giving it over to God or letting in any kind of forgiveness, I think I must be punishing myself for those contributions. But a few weeks ago, I made a real prayer, a real request about how sorry I was for my part in a bad situation. The person is someone I will probably never see again, so this is the only way I will be able to be sorry and ask for forgiveness. And this is a person who I had much anger about, for a long time, too. I had cried many tears over this person. And the prayer felt real to me. It felt answered. So, it seems like maybe I can learn to do what you suggest. And have it be a real help.
It is hard, but I feel ready for this step. Thank you for bringing it up in this context. It is so helpful.
PP
P.S. I do very much hope that when the rage welled up in you at your memories of constant unfairness (disguised as fairness) that it soon seeped out peacefully. It was certainly justified rage. But it does feel completely awful and I hope that it drained away and you were able to sleep well.
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There are so many different ways to let go of anger !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do not be afraid of it as Storm says I was for years I also recently went though a process that rid
me of years of pent up anger and I let it run its course
BUT IT WAS RELEASED IN A VERY HEALING WAY NO ONE TOLD ME WHAT TO DO IT HAPPENED.
I let it happen Use your intuition to tell you the right release.
NICE PEOPLE GET PISSED OFF TOO..................................................iT'S OK TO GET ANGRY 8)
It will be hard for me to find my way of letting it rip!!! But I will find a way.
I have always been afraid of my anger. It has been out of control many times in the past. I am still very ashamed of some things I have done. I have made a fool of myself many times due to uncontrolled, unleashed anger. I have scared people. Not all the time, but definitely far too often. When I was that angry, it seems that it started out as some other emotion. Fear, humiliation, frustration. And anger can lead to those feelings for me as well. A vicious cycle sometimes.
Sunday we went to see the film, Shortbus. Not a film for everyone, admittedly. It is NC-17 for a reason. Many here would probably not like it. But it moved me a great deal. And there is a scene near the end when a main character has a meltdown. She takes an object and starts bashing everything in sight with it. She is out of control. Then, when she is totally drained, she stands there all ashambles with her hair hanging down and completely covering her face. And I told my husband, that was me one day in fourth grade. I actually did something like that in school one day. And it was so completely humiliating. I did stand with my hair covering my face because I was so ashamed. That episode was very hard to live down. Kids and sometimes their parents brought it up to me many times over the years. I would not be surprised for someone to bring it up to me when I am 80 years old. It was pretty shocking for the witnesses, my little 9-year-old cohorts, who thought it was okay to pick on me when they felt like it. (I should say here that my meltdown was not caused by being picked on, though, it was caused by unrequited love, my fear that the classmate I loved would not let me join his group that was working on a class project that day. Too bad I couldn't have just been absent that day :? .)
So, I have big issues with the shameful aspects of unleashed anger. It will be good to find a private ritual or release for myself to channel it in some way. I believe I am just about mature enough for that now.
I have often thought I must not be a very nice person at all to be so angry all the time. And maybe it will turn out that "nice" is not a major part of my personality afterall. But I would like to be nice. Or maybe generous is more what I'm after. And I can't really be that if I feel that I don't have "enough" for myself. That is also an issue in my anger. What about me? How come I was never important enough or taken care of enough?
There's a lot floating around related to this. I'm not going to let myself become overwhelmed by how big it is and how complex. Many of you have been able to really get a handle on anger and your experiences are so very helpful.
Moon, it might not be rocks in the river, but I will come up with something :) . Thank you so much.
Now I must get to bed. Good night all.
PP
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PP,
To me, the most important thing is for you to love yourself and forgive yourself for everything.
Feeling angry doesn't make you a bad person, and you ARE so clearly good, and generous, and honest and brave.
I am rattled by anger, not always confident that releasing it is positive. It takes a lot to get me mad. But in contrast to openly abusive households, mine was very repressed in terms of expressing feelings. All the anger was acted out in my brother's silent bullying of me, in hidden corners, always, always, out of sight.
I think you just have a big roar inside, and it's not aimed at anyone present. That's key, I think, to know that you're roaring on behalf of yourself.
I wonder if swimming would be helpful? I love putting on goggles and cap and immersing in the water, holding a kickboard and just going and going. The water flows over me and cushions me and I feel free and protected at the same time.
That little PP needed friends. Needed not to be rejected. Needed to be noticed and part of things.
Sleep well. You are processing vital energies in the best way you can. Your anger won't poison you.
Hops
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Hi Pennyplant,
I understand how you feel. When I first came up on the board, I had so much rage that I was afraid if what I might, and nearly did, do. I was afraid to even look down the well of anger I had, for fear I'd fall in. I thought I'd never get the cat back in the bag again. I was shocked at things I have done and afraid I'd do worse.
The key for me was understanding my triggers. My colossal rage was not always justified and certainly not my friend. But knowing why certain things triggered me, and what had happened to me as a child that I was not allowed then respond to with the appropriate emotion, allowed my anger to be released. And the production cycle of new anger, triggered by events which I misinterpreted because of my un-understood past, decreased.
If you are trying to suppress your anger, because your reaction does not seem to fit the situation, it will not work. Anger is like a combustible gas. If you try to compress it, it might explode. And lookout when it ignites!
I think you have already had a breakthrough with your understanding of the roles in your FOO. Now the key is just to start to break the anger habit and continue to analyse in order to understand more.
I had people tell me they had no idea I was so, and the word anger was not used, but assertive, or such like. I felt I was even being told I had almost hoodwinked them by pretending to be other than I was! If this is the subtext with your H, you might want to address it, or or you might just ignore it and work on your more pressing issue.
Today, my residual anger is indeed my friend. I am able to be direct and assertive and stick to my guns. I will not be victimised again. Thank you, wicked dregs of bad Plucky which remain!
Good luck
from Pluck
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Hi PP
Great thread! Everyone has something to say about anger and rage. It's a key. You found it :D
my fear that the classmate I loved would not let me join his group that was working on a class project that day
who were you really raging at, that day? Who was really responsible for making you feel excluded, unloved, unworthy, frustrated, so very deeply unhappy?
My H once shouted at me "It's not me you're screaming at! I don't do those things. Who are you screaming at??"
Yah. Rage can be terrifying and shameful and feel so utterly out of control. I think the few times I really raged, as an adult, I regressed to about 4 years old, seriously. I pinpointed the exact memory - from when I was about 4 - that caused the rage. It has a reason. May not be one event, may be many events, but they're all from way back. Really FEEL that truth and you will be able to see the cause of your rage / anger.
This is so important 8)
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I have been slowly reading all the responses on this thread and reminded of the times when my anger and rage were out of control. In my case, there were just a couple of people who could bring that out in me--my father and my first husband, who was just like my father.
After I married my second xh and moved away from where my parents lived, we would have to periodically make trips back to visit them. It would literally take less than 5 minutes of being in his presence for the anger to start to well up. The interesting part was, that once I was an adult, I no longer was his source of criticism. It was my mother who he would direct all the nagging and criticism toward, but I would immediately feel the need to defend her the way I wished she would have defended me against him when I was young. The problem was, that she would still take his side.
We visited there one Thanksgiving, and my father decided that he wanted me to prepare the Thanksgiving dinner rather than my mother, because I was a better cook (true). I said I would be happy to do that, but only if he agreed to stay out of the kitchen the entire time and not come in to start throwing in his many 2 cents about how things should be done, i.e. cutting up vegetables, washing the turkey, stuffing--whatever--he had an opinion on everything and you better do it his way. He became furious at my dictating his involvement and I said fine, then I'm not doing it. The rest of the day got worse and worse and I eventually said that I was done. I could not be around him anymore. We left the next day and I never went back and never had another conversation with him. Two years later he was sick and dying and we went back to support my mother, and returned for the funeral 2 weeks later.
I hated the person I became when in his presence. But what really made me decide to sever my ties with him was having my children see me become that person. I was very rarely angry otherwise and certainly didn't rage at anyone. My children were old enough at the time for me to explain why I had to stop having any involvement with him. It would take me several days to "come down" after being around him. What I found helped to settle that rage was to cook. I would go into the kitchen and prepare a meal that my family loved. The chopping and sauteing and preparation process with no one else around would bring me peace. My family gathering for the meal and the four of us having lively conversation and their enjoyment of my effort, would bring me back to a place of calm.
For those of you who are relatively new, the way I got rid of the very significant rage I felt when my second xh walked out very suddenly 3 years ago, is something I still laugh about. When he moved all his stuff out, he mistakenly left behind his very significant record album collection. It was January, so I took the albums and put them in the garage. Any time I felt the need to release some anger, I would go out to the garage and pick out some of the albums which I knew were particularly special to him, and I would smash them to bits. They smash really well when they're cold like that :mrgreen: I would then calmly return them to their sleeves and put them in a box for him to pick up later.
These days I really don't have anyone around me who makes me angry and that is a wonderful thing.
Brigid
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Brig,
I murdered a small television once. (Very neatly, after putting it in a plastic bag.)
And once I smacked exH1 on his leg with a jelly sandal. :shock:
Hops
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Hey Guys ,
When my oldest d was a teenager she loved to break phones just threw them across the room also she liked to slam doors .
She would be talking to one of her little teenage friends and boom flying phone this happened about 2 or 3 times .It's a family joke now.
I am so glad that only lasted for a year or so once she got a handle on her little hormones she was OK....................................
We have no throwing with small moonlet but little moonlet did get mad at Mr moon for sneaking in to her Halloween candy......
Moonlet "OK who ate my kit Kat bars huh what makes you think I don't keep inventory of the candy huh!!!!!!!!!!!"
Mr moon "uh OK SORRY Ummmmmmmmmmmmm you just went to the dentist I was helping you out"
I am glad little one does not seem to have a lot of anger and she sure does express herself.
Me I never broke stuff just repressed anger .
much love,
moon
my oldest d says we should have disciplined her more "you should have grounded me more "and she's right ..........We wouldn't have had to replace so many phones. :shock:
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dear penny, i hear you. i have read some of the posts, do you see how many of us are dealing or have dealt with this? repressed anger makes us sick and depressed. it incapacitates us. it keeps us locked in the same patterns. by not dealing with it we cannot be the people we could and should be. i have always been the good girl, the nice girl who never got mad. i stuffed it down, swallowed it and became sicker and unhappier. examine your anger, find its causes, do what you need to to deal with it constructively. stay strong.
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This post is about what several people have brought up about patterns, FOO, and what was I really angry at the day I flipped out in fourth grade.
I have to think very hard to make the connections but they are there. It's just so close that it is hard to see it clearly. So, I thought today about that time in fourth grade. I can't think of a specific incident but I have often thought there must have been some kind of stressful build up in me that was set off that day. I mean, I really scared people that day. I actually picked up a chair and threw it! One of those wood and metal little school chairs. Somebody could have gotten hurt if it had hit anybody.
I blamed it on my feelings of worry that I would be rejected by the boy I had a crush on. But I think a better clue is this: Our class was divided into groups working on projects. My group finished first (naturally, overachiever that I was all those years). I didn't have anything to do for awhile. My friend was in little crush boy's group and she knew of my "dilemma" (why didn't I just coast for the rest of the morning like a normal child would have?!?) and said, I'll ask little crush boy (who was the group leader) if he would let me join with them. I panicked because I had recently been having overwhelming feelings about being around him, and I begged her not to do that. She ignored me and said she would just go and ask him, she was sure he would say yes. I just wanted her to listen to me and do what I said. But she didn't listen and headed on over to ask him anyway and that is when I flipped. (Side-note, does anybody think it is just a coincidence that little crush boy's first name was the same as my father's first name? It's not a common name either. I just wonder about that sometimes.)
Being ignored and disregarded are huge, huge triggers for me. I had no power! I told her what I wanted and it didn't matter! It was important to me and it didn't matter!
Thinking of this reminded me of an earlier incident that I will never forget. It must have happened several years before I was in fourth grade because it involved my sister and a rocking horse. You know the kind that are attached to a frame by four springs, one on each "hoof". Well, my sister was doing her usual out of control thing on this rocking horse and bouncing as hard as she could. I remember myself telling her to stop it because she would fall off. She was laughing and ignoring me as usual and sure enough she fell off and got hurt and started screaming. My parents came running and asked what happened. I said she fell and she said I pushed her! Well, I hadn't pushed her, she did it to herself. So, I kept frantically trying to get my parents to believe me. But they didn't. They believed her. But I kept going on about it. So, my father sent me to bed and taped my mouth shut. I was completely infuriated! It was so unfair. It was so incredibly frustrating. So humiliating.
I was telling the truth. There were times that I did do mean things to my sister and I remember doing them. She would cover for me those times. But that was later on. This time I had done what I thought was right and got completely punished and humiliated for it. Completely stifled.
There were other times like that. My parents only noticed when I did mean things to my sister. They never seemed to know the times she lied about me, or instigated it, which was often. She has always known how to push people's buttons. She drives most people up the wall once they have known her long enough. She drove my parents up the wall and they couldn't handle it either. Yet, I was expected to be a saint around her. When I was only a child.
This kind of thing happened daily in my childhood. We are only a year apart, and it started early. So, I didn't really know anything else. I think it had built up and built up until it came out that day in fourth grade. But my uncontrolled anger only made my life worse.
Damn, though, I was just a little kid. I've heard people say that it is often the "good" one who needs more help than the one who is acting out. But I didn't get any help at all. Not anything that I could recognize as help.
Wow, I feel like such a disturbed person. I know that is warped thinking right now. But I hate thinking about those times. I tried to be "good" but I wasn't really. Then there are the people who knew only the little girl who threw a chair in fourth grade. And I'm not only her either. I feel so misunderstood by all the people who should have cared to find out more what was going on with me.
My husband knows all these things about me and he still says, I am the best person he knows.
Thinking about those times brings up so much for me. I do need to find a way to figure it out or get it out. Maybe more writing.
I'm glad this is helping others here. I was afraid I would be alone with this. I was afraid I would alienate people.
Today was a long day at work and I need to get to bed early. But I do want to respond to other posts, at the very least in general ways, and hope to post more tomorrow. Everything everyone has shared is helping a lot :) . I'm so relieved about this.
Pennyplant
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One more quick post. Somebody asked me about the specific incident that set off my anger this past weekend. Asked if I was sure it was done purposely to me.
I have to really think about that. It was quite deliberate, personal, and specific to something I had recently said that I didn't want done. But..... I think what was really going on was that the other person's need was so great and so multi-layered, that in his mind, his need simply out-weighed what I needed. I don't think it was something that was done just to get my goat. It was instead something very complicated below the surface. It happened in a very personal way. I now think he just hoped I would let it slide. He has apologized several times. But I'm still wary. And he knows that. So, there's some work to do.
But I have to admit that the truth is, it was not out and out personal, not done only to hurt me. It might have been some kind of power play, though. Somewhere in there. One incident lasting only a few minutes out of the day, and it opened up so much.
And now I'm really going to get ready for bed. I'm bone-tired tonight. Time to hit the hay.
Pennyplant
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Hi PP,
when I was processing the bulk of my anger, I was physically dog tired every day. Make sure you are sleeping enough, even if it seems more than normal, and eating right. Holding back that anger is a big job but working through it is even bigger.
happy trails
Plucky
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Pennyplant
(Side-note, does anybody think it is just a coincidence that little crush boy's first name was the same as my father's first name?
Yes it’s a coincidence. Just one? Is it possible you were attracted to him because he had the same name as your father?
Being ignored and disregarded are huge, huge triggers for me. I had no power! I told her what I wanted and it didn't matter! It was important to me and it didn't matter!
Being ignored and having your wishes disregarded are healthy triggers! Nobody with self-respect enjoys being treated like that. I don’t like being ignored or disregarded. I guess nowadays I try and see it as an action that the other person is taking and how I react is up to me. I might decide to try and assert my wishes, I might decide to ask why they’re disregarding my wishes, it depends on the situation. I might walk away! So many choices 8).
So, I kept frantically trying to get my parents to believe me. But they didn't. They believed her. But I kept going on about it. So, my father sent me to bed and taped my mouth shut. I was completely infuriated! It was so unfair. It was so incredibly frustrating. So humiliating.
This sounds like a traumatic experience PP. I believe you. Making you voiceless in that way was abusive. Do you feel very angry thinking about it now? Can you imagine going in to that scene now, as an adult, removing the tape from the little girl’s mouth and telling the father just how abusive he was being? What would you say to him, and to her? You can say it here if you wish.
Wow, I feel like such a disturbed person. I know that is warped thinking right now. But I hate thinking about those times. I tried to be "good" but I wasn't really.
Keeping up a facade of compliance and wanting to rebel? You don’t sound disturbed PP! Truly, you sound to me as though you’re thinking things through deeply and coming to understand them. In thinking about how your childhood affected you, those things that cause you to feel anger now will lose their power. If you hate thinking about those things, that’s exactly the reason for looking at them now – to remove their influence and power today. You’re doing great - and important work too.
But I have to admit that the truth is, it was not out and out personal, not done only to hurt me. It might have been some kind of power play, though. Somewhere in there. One incident lasting only a few minutes out of the day, and it opened up so much.
Small things can bring up so much. They’re worth thinking about. Glad you’re aware of what happened, or what might have been happening there. It will help for the next time, if there is one?
Take care.
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When we are taught - as I was taught - to fear any strong emotions, it is (so I have read, anyway) because the people around us did not separate anger from violence. If anger is bottled up long enough, then sometimes when it does explode, it does so with an attack. In my childhood, such attacks were from my Nmum and aimed at my ob. Or from my dad and aimed at anyone in his path; really explosive. My ob has inherited both tendencies with his kids. :(
So, anger equals violence, and pain.
Then you get happiness, and if you have had anything like mine, this goes the same way. My mum used to say if you laugh too much you will end up crying. Then she made it come true. She would watch me and ob laughing, and play fighting, and find something she didn't like, or just reach the end of her rag, and explode, and start to hit him.
So, happiness equals violence, and pain.
In the end there is nowhere to go but to stifle emotional expression, and if possible also stifle emotional experience, so that you do not know what you are missing. Stay in the grey world of never feeling angry and never feeling real, complete joy.
Really, in my house, no emotions worked very well. I became very used to not bothering to even feel really happy or carefree. Because it would just get "ruined" anyway. Anything could come along and completely "ruin" a perfectly okay day. "Oh, great, now the whole day is ruined!" If it couldn't be perfect then it was all bad. Expectations weren't very realistic in my house. Never any way to be consoled. Never any way to salvadge the day.
We weren't allowed to cry either. Of course, I did sometimes. But the idea was to stop crying. Or not start to begin with.
We weren't supposed to be too loud either. Especially in a store or at someone's house or at the dinner table. No exuberance allowed.
This is why sometimes I think it was "a gift within the problem" that I was ignored so much. I didn't have to scrutinized and corrected so much.
I tried very hard not to repeat these mistakes with my kids. I hope that they did not feel too stifled growing up. On some level I knew it was important to let them express themselves. Not so sure I equated that with feeling all emotions. But I hadn't learned yet about emotions. Allowing expressiveness was a start at least.
October, I get a kick out of you and your daughter composing letters about Ndad--I love the humor about a somewhat serious subject. B-A-S-T-A-R-D! And now we have the 2006 Champion of the International "N" Spelling Bee! Yay!
Pennyplant
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...the notion, too, that fairness = treating everyone exactly the same no matter how badly they behave? PP, that's not fairness. That's a con job fed to you by a BS artist. Real fairness pays attention to how people behave, and responds appropriately to each person. It doesn't reward slackers or pets at the expense of people who work their hearts out.
..............
Anger is a signal, it is a message, it is the exact same thing as the pain response but in your feelings instead of your nerves. Anger means that something is wrong, a boundary is crossed. And the problem is that just like pain, if it doesn't get taken care of it accumulates - if you keep standing on a broken leg it doesn't heal, same with anger, if it doesn't get a chance to heal it just gets worse.
Let me share something with you - it probably won't 'help' right now but hold on to it, it does make sense later on. Anger is one of the best servants you can possibly have. Anger is like radar, it's like second sight, if you learn how to use it and work with it it will alert you to abusers before they have a chance to abuse you, it will alert you to Ns and to situations that are traps.
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Accept your anger. Call it a friend. Ask it to tell you where the problems are... Do what you are doing... you will find that it diminishes when it knows that it is being heard and that the best thing you can do for it is to tell it that you believe it... you may be surprised, telling it you hear it and believe it may make you cry with relief.
Stormy, your post contained so much in it that is new to me. Things I never would have come up with on my own. The fairness/equality con-job, anger as my friend, anger as radar, alerting me to traps.
I feel like I have been trapped my entire life. Tied down, no options, no where to turn, weighted down all the time. So often, I never even saw it coming, whatever it was. Bad job situations, mean people, anything that made me feel like a victim. To think that I can take my anger seriously. I can believe in it. Just stay out of the traps to begin with. And so much of my anger has resulted from getting trapped and all the frustrations that accompany a continuously poor living situation. I know I can't make my life "sanitary" or all good and easy. But to not have to waste so much energy getting into the traps--all I have to do is listen to my feelings and take them seriously.
I actually felt a sense of relief as I read through these ideas. Ahhhhhhh!
Pennyplant
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But what I really want to tell you - so much more than that I can truly identify with you is what you can do about it. You are experiencing a repeat of your family pattern. Your anger has to be there. But now you have a chance to break this pattern. You are in a crucial time and place to experience very significant healing. You have seen the pattern for what it is. But now you must change the way you responded to this pattern in your FOO. Now you have a very, very important opportunity to respond in a healthy, healing manner and this is where remarkable healing can take place.
I think I will not be able to keep avoiding for much longer the work I have to do with my memories of my FOO. I know I'm going to have to sit down and write it out and really remember and then this time feel the feelings. I am avoiding it for sure. But it must be true, that those patterns are behind everything. I'm just steeped in it. When I read the questions here and the suggestions about what am I really angry about and I remember the little girl on the bed with her mouth taped shut and all the rage that had no where to go that day, it wells up pretty quickly. What would I say to the sadly mistaken father? What would I do for the girl? What should I do? is maybe the better question.
I have been in situations where I should have done something but could not. Reacted instead the way I had learned as a child. Felt that I had no power to influence a positive outcome, etc. And then more shame, of course.
When I think about the question of what would I say to the little girl on the bed, to the father enforcing such a stupid punishment, well, that is actually not such an easy question for me. Those limitations I learned all my growing up years still seem to dominate. I am going to have to put much thought and practice into my answers. Teach the answers to my self since no adult ever taught me when I was growing up.
It is actually embarrassing to me that I might know intellectually what is wrong with the taping of the mouth incident but emotionally I'm at a loss. At a loss for words too. Where is my sense of right and wrong? How can I be 45 years old and not know how to just rush in there, peel off the tape and throw it at the father? How is it that I can just stand there in the doorway, mesmerized, and be at a loss for how to pick her up and take her out of there? Well, it is getting past the time to break the spell.
GS, do you know what it was that allowed the anger to leave you 8 or 9 months ago? Just being nosy here, of course. It seems like it might be a story that goes with this thread.
Pennyplant
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....there was nothing that I could do to change their attitude. In fact, the only thing that I was able to do was to work on myself. It;s the most we can do. If a past sibbling or parent or co-worker is selfish and unkind, that is really not your problem. You didn't cause them to be that way. In fact their behaviour indicates that they have work to do on themselves.
Don't take responsibilty for foolishness that does not belong to you. it is other's people resonsibility to fix themselves. It's not your responsibility to fix them, or to make them see what they did to you, or to make them want to change or any thing along those lines. Just do what you can for yourself and learn to respond in ways that are benficial to you. You'll be a much happier person without the burden of other poeple's emotional baggage on your shoulder.
Liberty,
This is another biggie for me. I have always taken on the responsibility of fixing other people, being alert for how they might feel, what they might do, and how I could keep anything from going wrong. Always jumping in where I was not needed or wanted. I thought I had to do this. At home I had to. It was how we made my sister's moods liveable. Trying always to do the thing that would not set her off. It was a survival mechanism. But I have often wondered how life might have been better if we had not lived that way. If my sister just had to learn instead to live with the results of her reactions. She was catered to all the time at home. No wonder she expected to be catered to at school and in the neighborhood.
Well, I digress. I'm sick of worrying about my sister. I'm sick of worrying about, being responsible for, all other people. I am so ready to just be responsible for my own life, my own actions, my own feelings.
I like that also, about selfish and unkind co-workers showing what is wrong with them, not what is wrong with me. I never thought of it that way. Always thought it had to be my fault. Everything can't be my fault! That's just not physically possible!!! It will be nice to divest myself of all these extra burdens I've been carrying around all these years. That alone will lessen my anger. And the fatigue.
Thanks, Lib!
And good night, All!
Pennyplant
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Pennyp
Wow that is a biggie I was always the fixer.
I felt soooooooooooooooo responsible for being the U.N.OF FOO . No more period.
And really it's up to each family member at some point to stop throwing the toxic football.
What I did in my process was I put the focus on the person that had hurt me my whole life and let the anger flow though me and did not stop it .
I did this lying down and let my mind use a symbol and focused until the toxic anger left my body.(this took hours)
But I guess the method used is individual.I sure do feel like a new woman that's for sure .
Freedom and escape it's just like Stormy has said so much that jac and Stormy have said has opened my eyes.
I really tend to be quite naive and gullible and this kept me in denial for so long.
Love to you Pennyp,
moonlight
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Dear PennyP,
I just want to tell you that two things in your post were so vivid to me:
When the little girl ignored you and went to tell crush-boy you wanted to join them...I think it wasn't just being disregarded, but being humiliated. Who wants to risk rejection by that little boy? A crush even in little kids can be a thunderbolt. People seem to think sometimes that little people have little feelings. Pah. I imagine that moment in the classroom was just scalding for you, and since you hadn't seen healthy things, but explosive and terrifying things, done with feelings at home...you just reacted the way that had been modeled for you.
Thinking of you on a bed with your mouth taped shut as punishment was heartbreaking to me, and I bet it broke yours.
My brother had the double humilation in 2nd grade of having his mouth taped shut by a teacher, and being forced to stand in the corner while the class proceeded. He changed that day. That's when the bullying started.
I wonder if part of your anger is sheer frustration. You have come so far and learned so much and thinking and feeling are like your right hand and somebody else's left foot...you know there's a dance that can go gracefully, but you're still learning the steps.
Don't despair, don't give up. You are being very very very alive.
Hops
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I have been reading this whole thread..and rereading it, but have been very afraid to respond. Anger was a theme in our household growing up. Except, I was the only one Not allowed to express it, it seemed (it was wrong for me to do that). But it came out when I was a teenager (especially when I drank)
Then I read something moon wrote and I wanted to laugh and cry all at once.
You said your daughter used to thrown phones and broke quite a few. I did this too!! :) I broke a phone and a coffee table..a small TV.
But the thing that made me want to cry is your acceptance of this behavior moon. It is a rare gift for a parent to be able to see that it is just normal behavior, "hormones," or just a part of life - getting angry. That you wholeheartedly accept your daughter just the way she is, it makes me smile.
I wish I had had a mother who told me this.
love,
bean
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HI pbean Well that is something I learned from my sweet mom no matter what my behavior was in teenage years she loved me.I hope my father now remembers how much my mom loved me and hope he respects that memory and would honor that memory of how much she loved me.I to this day feel deep within me her love. 8)
That's what has given me the knowledge that a phone is just a phone and the kid's pissed and sometimes she wanted to talk and sometimes she stomped off and she threw a phone sometimes she said "I hate you" I knew she did not mean it.
But before I give myself mom of the year award Mr moon and I were not good in giving disciple.But our children have a voice and they always Did also they are the delight of our lives......................so this is a good thing.
A flying phone was serious we wanted her to talk about what was bothering her but sometimes teenagers do not want to talk to the "parents".
We never tried to be her buddy and so tried as best we could to give her limits but I was not ever going to touch a hair on my children and never did.
Now at the age of 28 we have always been there for her.Now the sun shines upon my darling and all is well and she is free to tell me anything.
And boy howdy she does but there is a lot of that love stuff going around so that is a good thing.
I accept my children and even more delight in there being they do not have to prove a thing to me just be ............
Little MOONLET IS DIFFERENT SHE IS VERY GENTLE .......................
That's OK I love the gentleness of small moonlet and the fire of big moonlet :D :D :D
Oldest moonlet is a fireball What a kid :D :D :D Also she is so strong I admire her greatly.
Littlest moonlet knows about all the under ground bands and loves art and music.and SHE IS BEYOND COOL !!!!!!!!!!!!
THERE LIVES ARE THEIR POEMS 8)
Phones are replaceable ..............................................................................................
Love to you pbean Pleased so much to have made you smile you can come on over we need a new phone anyway :D
So much love to you
moon