Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: isittoolate on April 03, 2007, 08:56:54 PM
-
Today was the day Therapist finally asked about the HOW of the estrangement with my daughter.
I related it all as though I were reading Cinderella. No emotion left about it at all; as that was the point I really cracked and then tucked it all away.
Therapist recognized the emotional abuse from SIL to daughter, to children, then how she was ‘trapped’. How she could have felt ‘abandoned by me’. Time was up when she said, “Well, we have a lot to talk about!”
SIL is now X and has the eldest child.
Love Izzy
-
Iz,
Are you happy to have dug down and gotten to some new area? I can't tell from your post what you are feeling. I also am unsure exactly of the situation. Do you want to describe it some more? I'd love to listen.
Love, Beth
-
Hi Beth,
I am not feeling much at all. That is me and why I am in therapy.
Son in law is an N. I didn't know about Ns in 1983. He met my daughter and sucked her in; it sounded as though she was on the defensive, though, when she told me about him. She was 19. He was 31. I hated him right off the bat. She came home that summer only twice and neglected all her hometown friends (and me) for him, as she was heading off to University, after a great showing in school to date.
Before summer's end she announced they would marry the next Juune (1984) I asked her to please wait. If it was real love it would last but please let me put her through University.
She (sounding not like herself, but brainwashed) said, "We are getting married whether you like it or not and if you don't you don't have to be there".
I knew it was him talking. I figured he was after my $$$ and after a wedding and 7 years of marriage and a debt to me of $55,000.00 he evicted me from "his" property" to never set foot on it again.
I did as I was told, as I had done all my life.
I drove away that day and knew I had seen my daughter and 2 grandchildren (4˝ and 2) for the last time.
---to be continued--the never ending story----
Love Izzy
Edit in: She had to drop out of University as he couldn't afford it. She finally got her degree after she left him and worked and schooled at the same time as raising the 3 kids (all she took from the divorce) while he took on the debts and I sued him. Final payment was about 1˝ years ago.
Iz
-
Iz - of course you don't feel anything. The pain is too great. You have to protect yourself. A week is a long time to wait when you have just opened up about something that is so difficult. I admire you for going through with the therapy. I hope you will find some solace in time to come. - Gaining Strength
-
That is a rough situation, Iz. It sounds like he was a real jerk. As much as you don't wish to lay any blame at your daughter's feet (it seems to me), she made her choices.
It sounds to me like you ahve a good therapist who is finding the issues that need to be brought out.I have always wondered if I would trust a therapist. How about you? Do you trust her?
Beth
-
Thank you GS
I wonder about the outcome.
and Beth
As the therapist put it, she was 'trapped' at that point. I know she made her choice, but what if he threatened her, as he did me, that if I returned, the shotgun would put a hole right through my windshied and my forehead.
Yes! I trust this therapist!
Love Izzy
-
I trust her too, Iz.
Stay open to mystery, possibility...
Hops
-
Izzy,
So glad that you are feeling safe with your T. I am always so impressed with the energy and care you give on this board. Your empathy for others is always apparant to me. Maybe this is the beginning of you experiencing empathy for yourself. Therapy is hard work, it really is the road less travelled. I often relate to your shut down position, this is where I was when I began therapy many many moons ago. It gets better but it is tough. I know the only way I survived was to stop feeling and become numb. It takes a long time to thaw the frozen feelings but with gentle support and care it is possible.
xxxxxxxx axa
-
I am new so I have to ask Izzy, If your daughter is no longer with SIL, don't you see her anymore? What is going on there? It breaks my heart that you can't see your grandchildren. I have one and I have him every other weekend, all weekend. Summers I have him weeks at a time. I couldn't imagine not seeing him! Oh, the pain must be deep! :cry:
-
Thanks axa and camper
My shut down feeling began very young re my FOO. Some things brought me out of it slightly when I fell in love then had his baby.
Then I had to leave him re alcoholism and physical abuse. I shut down again. I so disliked being hurt and in pain. I had no empathy for me. I believed I deserved every rotten thing that happened.
Then the car crash and wheelchair and would my daughter still love this 'different ' mommy after being away in hosptal for a year. This was a big fear of mine that I allowed to 'get out of control', but it was still the two of us until the N came into her life and thus she and I did not agree from 1983, because of him, but I did stupid thiings to not lose her. I must have been pathetic.----loaning all that money to him.
The estangement came 7 years later so there are actually 24 years of "walking on eggshells" over her and him and revenge he is taking on her by brainwashing the eldest child, now 20, and this past Xmas taking the younger son, 14. (He was back with his mother in 3 days tho')
camper, I just left my daughter alone, as I expected she wanted, even when I heard she had left him. She then went back to University and worked and raised the kids. Was busy and never contacted me. I think I became a little more numb, but was trying to understnad her busy position etc. She got her Degree and has her own midwifery business, so she came out well in that respect but she is also in therapy, as are her two childrern re their N father.
Then I met my own N 1998 (still didn't know about Ns yet) and suffered with his emotional abuse for 4 years---left him 5 years ago. and shut down even further.
So I have a long climg upward and where do I start?
Parents are dead--and all siblings over 60 now, daughter is 42 and capable of making her own decisions. etc.--- never know what is ahead and I am now 2000 miles away from her. (moved with the N)
There are many aspects to the story but that's a brief (?) outline.
Love Izzy
-
Ever thought about a visit?
Just take your chances?
Go see her. Book a hotel room before you call her house.
Tell her you're in town and would like to come by.
See what happens?
Hops
-
Thanks Hops
All of you have to remember about accessibility. All my Foo and my daughter have houses with so many steps and an upstairs bathroom, or a little downstairs one too narrow for the chair.
I was 'sick; about going to there places all the time I was in Ontario.
I once said to my brother that he really ought to have a sign for one side of his driveway so that I didn't have to park all the way down the street. He did it---the rest--well they are entitled to have the houses they want---but I am also entitled to refuse to make an ass out of myself by crawling up 14 steps, or wetting my pants. I am a dignified person!
What my mother would do, if she knew about something in advance was to stop drinking, and she would be so dehydrated that she didn't have to use the bathroom. I will not do that either!!
Unnnnnnnstannnnnn?
Love Izzy
-
Sure do.
Unless you called and asked them to meet you at a simple pub somewhere...
sometimes difficult reunions are more relaxed on neutral turf anyway.
Hops
-
Hi Hops
Have a look at Canada!
I am the black sheep:
4 siblings and daughter are the 5 red stars. I think it would be an expensive whiskey sour!
Love Izzy
(http://www.slrkelowna.ca/canada.JPG)
-
Izzy - on a lighter note - I love you graphics. I admire your ability.
I hear your anger. That is a feeling. I encourage you to let it out more and more. Under that anger lie the other feelings. They are suppressed under the rage. I know. I have been there. I have other feelings now and it is good. Keep releasing that anger here. It is safe to do so here. You can do it and you will find the feelings coming back.
Bring this to your therapist and get her feedback. - your friend - GS
-
Hi GS
Glad you like my graphics. I do them in Paint. I love making words in pictures.
Yes. I have a bottomless pit of anger. I haven't let it out.
I've talked about shame, here, and how it is said that is the strongest, that overcomes all other emotions, except for anger.
This will come in its own time with the therapist------anger at ---wow--I cannot list!
I told her I don't want to cry in case I never stop, nor have I ever let the anger out in case I never stop!
Bit by bit
love
Izzy
-
Izzy,
Know the fear of "if I cry I will never stop".............. you will. I have had that fear in the past also. At this stage of my life I think I have cried oceans and it did help, it was horrible going through it, but it does ease and release something. I still hold back from tears as I look like something from the Munster family with red swollen eyes afterwards but when I think of myself with compassion I let the tears flow.
My NMom used to call me "sore eyes".... I spent most of my childhood crying and to think of it a lot of my adult life also. I am not fearful or ashamed of my tears anymore. The are there for a reason. Bit by bit is right but allow yourself some slack.
I think I will start a thread about anger because I find it surfacing regularly.
axa xxxxx
-
Hi Beth,
I am not feeling much at all. That is me and why I am in therapy.
Son in law is an N. I didn't know about Ns in 1983. He met my daughter and sucked her in; it sounded as though she was on the defensive, though, when she told me about him. She was 19. He was 31. I hated him right off the bat. She came home that summer only twice and neglected all her hometown friends (and me) for him, as she was heading off to University, after a great showing in school to date.
Before summer's end she announced they would marry the next Juune (1984) I asked her to please wait. If it was real love it would last but please let me put her through University.
She (sounding not like herself, but brainwashed) said, "We are getting married whether you like it or not and if you don't you don't have to be there".
I knew it was him talking. I figured he was after my $$$ and after a wedding and 7 years of marriage and a debt to me of $55,000.00 he evicted me from "his" property" to never set foot on it again.
I did as I was told, as I had done all my life.
I drove away that day and knew I had seen my daughter and 2 grandchildren (4˝ and 2) for the last time.
---to be continued--the never ending story----
Love Izzy
Edit in: She had to drop out of University as he couldn't afford it. She finally got her degree after she left him and worked and schooled at the same time as raising the 3 kids (all she took from the divorce) while he took on the debts and I sued him. Final payment was about 1˝ years ago.
Iz
Ok..... if your daughter is divorced from her N.... and he was the problem.... then you and your dd can come together and support each other..... heal together. No? Why do you have to remain estranged from her? Sorry if I'm missing something obviouse here..... something explained that I missed.
It sounds like you two need each other and with understanding can be a family again. Those grandbabies need their gandma and you need your family. Things happen and your dd is amazing, (continueing her education, working and raising 3 children) and you got your money from him! Both strong women. Time to come up for air.... read that as leaving the land of gaslighting..... and rekindle relationship with dd. Margo
-
Hi Margo,
Sometimes things appear so simple, but are not.
I didn’t know about Ns
He owned her from when they met, she 19, he 31.
Whatever she said about me, owned my own house, won a civil suit for the car accident that disabled me, it wasn’t long before he had turned her against me. Me lose my daughter? No way. Unspoken blackmail to receive loans.
Before they were even married he borrowed $15,000.00. You can imagine how afraid I was of losing her if I didn’t comply. It was implied in his words and in her actions.
Ns have a sense of entitlement—as he did to my money, my daughter—married 1984-estrangement time in 1991 and I still never learned to like him. Daughter was different from first meeting him—“defiant?”
I was sitting the grandson from birth to age 4˝, and granddaughter born 2 years later., so was 2 when he kicked me out.
We all know Ns:
I asked her not to marry him and she did and (conjecture) now she was isolated from having friends, she felt trapped with the wee ones, must obey him, might have been threatened, as (not conjecture) he threatened me with the shotgun if I set foot again on his property.
Then she has a third child I (1992) never knew. They are 20, 18, almost 15 now.
As much as I have been a ‘voiceless' person all my life, I was more voiceless over this, and this just really did me in.
She left him in 1994 and divorced him in 1996.
Who was right about not marrying him, about his only wanting my money—now
owed me $55,000.00 and I sued. Doesn't matter who was right or wrong, it what happened to all of us because of his emotional abuse to all of us. His daughter hates him.
He has the eldest son who is showing N traits. She and the other two are in therapy along with her. She works hard in her business and tries to raise the children right. The girl is okay in school the 15 year old is now on probation with his mother. The eldest dropped out after finishing high school, is a dishwasher.
Her actions hurt me so badly that I cannot feel anymore. His actions must have hurt her badly, as well as her own actions. There is much to sort out.
Then I end up with an N of my own, for 4 years--sure was vilnerable to one-- that did me in even further.
I am in therapy—do you wonder why? No? I'll tell you--re-read the post :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Love
Izzy
-
Oh Izzy.
I am so glad you're not a person who's totally turned away from your brokenness.
You ARE examining it, shifting it...like yanking at a big rock.
I believe it's going to shift.
I am so sorry. I can't imagine how much it must have hurt to be driven away from your grandchildren. It will be a huge thing to forgive....your daughter for going along with it...but if you can permanently put the topic to rest with HER (not with your T, where you can do the real work on it)...and let her know that you don't care one BIT who was right, you just want to be allowed to love her and see the grandkids...
If you convince her you really MEAN that (probably with calm repetition and emails that have absolutely no digs or sarcasm, just open and transparent as glasss)...I think one day she is going to come see you. I really do.
love,
Hops
-
Hi Margo,
Sometimes things appear so simple, but are not.
I didn’t know about Ns
He owned her from when they met, she 19, he 31.
Whatever she said about me, owned my own house, won a civil suit for the car accident that disabled me, it wasn’t long before he had turned her against me. Me lose my daughter? No way. Unspoken blackmail to receive loans.
Before they were even married he borrowed $15,000.00. You can imagine how afraid I was of losing her if I didn’t comply. It was implied in his words and in her actions.
Ns have a sense of entitlement—as he did to my money, my daughter—married 1984-estrangement time in 1991 and I still never learned to like him. Daughter was different from first meeting him—“defiant?”
I was sitting the grandson from birth to age 4˝, and granddaughter born 2 years later., so was 2 when he kicked me out.
We all know Ns:
I asked her not to marry him and she did and (conjecture) now she was isolated from having friends, she felt trapped with the wee ones, must obey him, might have been threatened, as (not conjecture) he threatened me with the shotgun if I set foot again on his property.
Then she has a third child I (1992) never knew. They are 20, 18, almost 15 now.
As much as I have been a ‘voiceless' person all my life, I was more voiceless over this, and this just really did me in.
She left him in 1994 and divorced him in 1996.
Who was right about not marrying him, about his only wanting my money—now
owed me $55,000.00 and I sued. Doesn't matter who was right or wrong, it what happened to all of us because of his emotional abuse to all of us. His daughter hates him.
He has the eldest son who is showing N traits. She and the other two are in therapy along with her. She works hard in her business and tries to raise the children right. The girl is okay in school the 15 year old is now on probation with his mother. The eldest dropped out after finishing high school, is a dishwasher.
Her actions hurt me so badly that I cannot feel anymore. His actions must have hurt her badly, as well as her own actions. There is much to sort out.
Then I end up with an N of my own, for 4 years--sure was vilnerable to one-- that did me in even further.
I am in therapy—do you wonder why? No? I'll tell you--re-read the post :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Love
Izzy
I wasn't clear on the timeline.... had no idea so much time had passed since your dd was estranged from you. Listen.... I'm the eternal optimist, with regard to hope and healing for the deserving, anyway.
As for getting over this bitterness with your dd..... I believe as Hops does. Approaching your dd without blame or shaming her sounds reasonable. Lord knows you two have more understanding about N's now.... you can compare notes and help each other heal. You were both victimized. Can't there be some meeting of the minds and forgiveness? She was so young when he took her over.
I have to believe in redemption...... I just do. ((())) for you. You're so brave to attempt facing all this pain. Margo
-
Hi Margo
I am not bitter. I don't feel bitter.
I cannot feel anymore.
My therapist said I have disconnected from self. I am trying to reconnect.
This is not the time to invent a lovely letter to her.
Love
Izzy
-
I think you're right Izzy.
It's good you're getting the focus on yourself so you can do this hard work in therapy.
If other stuff is to come, there's time...and you wouldn't want to try it before you are very strong and have already worked through the thawing process. Which may take a while.
Hops
-
Hi Margo
I am not bitter. I don't feel bitter.
I cannot feel anymore.
My therapist said I have disconnected from self. I am trying to reconnect.
This is not the time to invent a lovely letter to her.
Love
Izzy
I'm distracted by the the estrangement being one of the causes for your emotional disconnection.... and the fact that you were both victims of N's. A letter full of hearts and flowers does seem a bit silly..... but, dropping a note to your dd seems logical to me.
I'm one of those people who likes to understand why my world went up in flames. You know why your's went poof. It struck me that reconnecting with your dd (and grandchildren) would be helpful with connecting to yourself, but what do I know? Your therapist will give you better advice than I. Margo
-
Oh Margo,
I missed this post
I need to know what happened to me with all this chaos and bedlam of the psyche.
FYI There are now and again emails between us but not of import.
I was disconnected, to a point before all this from FOO abuse, so the estrangement just deepened the emotional injury, and then again, being a perfect target for an N, I had that escapade.
I am ready to post Therapy # 5 and was checking where I had left off.
Love
Izzy