Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: WRITE on May 17, 2007, 03:09:26 PM
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I won't interrupt the thread on theories of Narcissism but someone just posted this on forgiveness, I wanted to think more about it:
An unforgiving person should
be someone who is easily offended, highly invested in collecting
on debts owed to the self, and determined to assert his or her rights
in a principled effort to maintain self-respect.
I guess in the above statement the word 'unforgiving' might well be replaced by 'unhealed', but is the opposite true?
eg a forgiving person is not easily offended, not invested in collecting on debts owed to self and not determined to assert his or her rights in a principled effort to maintain self-respect....
I don't think that works, the last bit. I am determined to assert my rights, albeit in a gentle way by choice. But I will be forceful if necessary, I will go away if I have to!
That doesn't make me unforgiving. I think forgiveness is like everything else, it has its boundaries.
If someone has perpetrated great abuse on me I should not expect myself to be forgiving as in open to a new relationship with them; if that someone has demonstrated their unwillingness or inability to change then I want to prioritise my healing over theirs. That's self-care.
And I am extremely forgiving with my ex as y'all know. But there are boundaries and limits, more so as time goes on and I see again and again the NPD.
Even if he were to recover and become his best self I would be unlikely to forgive to the extent of let's start over, to love him uncconditionally. I forgive within a context that is all. And mostly because I don't want to hold on to anger or bitterness.
What do other people think?
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and determined to assert his or her rights
in a principled effort to maintain self-respect.
hi Write.
I say that is for everyone. THat is what I am trying to do! Healthy people do it!
An unforgiving or healed person likley fits this part:
[quote]should (ought)
be someone who is easily offended, highly (and be) invested in collecting
on debts owed to the self[/quote] oh that won't go purple because of my strikethroughs
OK! That reminds me that I totally dislike the word SHOULD. It is a controlling word--Think about it!! OUGHT is better but still not perfect for the meaning.
Y&R is on and I forget where I was going
BBL
Izzy
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Hi Write,
IMO, forgiving has NOTHING to do with contact.
You can forgive someone without ever seeing or speaking to them. Reconciliation is when the forgiveness leads to a renewed relationship. With many Ns, that's not possible, and often, not advisable.
To conflate forgiveness and reconciliation is to deny yourself the healing that forgiveness brings you.
You can always tell another, if you have a need to, I forgive you. But if that's going to mean that the other pounds on your boundaries henceforth because they do not know that forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation, best to do it privately, for your own well-being.
It's not about rescuing anyone else or abandoning your self-care, not at all.
love
Hops
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Hi Write,
IMO, forgiving has NOTHING to do with contact.
You can forgive someone without ever seeing or speaking to them. Reconciliation is when the forgiveness leads to a renewed relationship. With many Ns, that's not possible, and often, not advisable.
To conflate forgiveness and reconciliation is to deny yourself the healing that forgiveness brings you.
You can always tell another, if you have a need to, I forgive you. But if that's going to mean that the other pounds on your boundaries henceforth because they do not know that forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation, best to do it privately, for your own well-being.
It's not about rescuing anyone else or abandoning your self-care, not at all.
love
Hops
Ya... what Hops said. Margo
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An unforgiving person should
be someone who is easily offended, highly invested in collecting
on debts owed to the self, and determined to assert his or her rights
in a principled effort to maintain self-respect.
I agree with this statement. My Nmom is the most unforgiving person I know, and she holds a grudge so tight it squeals. She is easily offended, and everything revolves around appearance. She doesn't want people over to the house unless it's spotless. If we have out of town company, she wants things repainted and every problem around fixed. It doesn't matter if she's been complaining about these things for months, she'll wait until a week before the event and then demand that all of that work gets done. And she won't be happy unless she does it all herself. The only time she'll be remorseful is when she's caught in a lie and has to do something to regain her self-respect.
Forgiveness has nothing to do with contact, like hops said. Forgiveness can be done without ever speaking to the person. I forgave my son's father for walking out on me without ever seeing or speaking to him. Now, we do speak a little now, but not much. I've not invited him back into my life.
I think another major part of forgiveness has to do with forgiving yourself. We've been hurt, and I know I carry around a lot of feelings of shame because I am angry and resentful towards both my parents, my Nmom and my enabler father. Part of my healing process is going to be saying its okay that I don't want to be around them that much. It's okay to be angry with them. And I have to forgive myself for putting up with what I have for so long. It's my life, not theirs.
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Hi,
A friend recently emailed me this definiion of forgiveness. I think it was taken from a book Free of Charge by Miroslav Volf.
Forgiveness by definition has two components: 1) naming the offense, revealing it to the offender, and 2) freely choosing to give the offender the gift of forgiveness. This is not the same as ignoring the offense, or stewing about it silently, or letting it roll off your back. It is saying, "you have wronged me in these specific ways, and I choose give you a gift by not counting the wrongdoing against you." The offender knows what they have done, and they know that you know it, and they know that you have forgiven them. The rest is up to them - between them and God. By doing this, rather than demanding retribution, or storing up resentment which then gets dumped back on the offender or on someone else, you are effectively breaking the chain of evil. It goes no further than you. Leo Tolstoy said, "By forgiving a person, one 'swallows' up evil into oneself and thereby prevents it from going further."
tt
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An unforgiving person should
be someone who is easily offended, highly invested in collecting
on debts owed to the self, and determined to assert his or her rights
in a principled effort to maintain self-respect.
I think I am the one who went to the website Michael suggested and found this. This made perfect sense to me. My H is so like this. He is so easily offended and he collects this stuff from me and saves it as a future weapon. In his entitlement, he demands from me, a reaction that will get him respect. He will use emotional blackmail to get me to apologize and tell him how wrong I was and how right he was. Write, you are looking at it from the victim stance. In an "N", there is the entitlement where the "N" is determined to assert his rights with the end result being that of forced respect which would give him self-respect. Am I making any sense?
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This issue of forgiveness is one I think about a lot. The idea of forgiving and keeping distance and boundaries (or in my case actual, geographic distance) seems to be something we all see....
I forgive my exNh because he is human, and I am human. Our humanity (and our children!) is what we have in common. Being human is not easy, and we are all in this together, and at our essence we are the same. My ex may not know that, or ever see that, and because of his disconnect from this basic truth (which I believe is the issue with N's), he is someone I do not like, and can barely even deal with. I keep my boundaries with him, because it is truly the most compassionate thing to do....for him....for me...for my kids.
But I forgive him, because although he acts like he knows exactly what he is doing (his "cockiness", his cruelty, manipulations, etc), he truly has NO IDEA what this all REALLY means (big picture stuff). To not forgive him for his floundering attempt at humanity is to also not forgive myself for mine. I don't need to be right and him wrong. I know how I want to live and love, and that is my guide. He can do as he wishes, so I do what I can to show my children how to love, while allowing them to walk their own path (knowing they will learn from him as well). That part is easily said, not so easily done.
My exN is one of the most important teachers of my life, as my difficult relationship with him is all about lessons in pain and boundaries and forgiveness.
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I won't interrupt the thread on theories of Narcissism but someone just posted this on forgiveness, I wanted to think more about it:
An unforgiving person should
be someone who is easily offended, highly invested in collecting
on debts owed to the self, and determined to assert his or her rights
in a principled effort to maintain self-respect.
I guess in the above statement the word 'unforgiving' might well be replaced by 'unhealed', but is the opposite true?
eg a forgiving person is not easily offended, not invested in collecting on debts owed to self and not determined to assert his or her rights in a principled effort to maintain self-respect....
I don't think that works, the last bit. I am determined to assert my rights, albeit in a gentle way by choice. But I will be forceful if necessary, I will go away if I have to!
That doesn't make me unforgiving. I think forgiveness is like everything else, it has its boundaries.
If someone has perpetrated great abuse on me I should not expect myself to be forgiving as in open to a new relationship with them; if that someone has demonstrated their unwillingness or inability to change then I want to prioritise my healing over theirs. That's self-care.
And I am extremely forgiving with my ex as y'all know. But there are boundaries and limits, more so as time goes on and I see again and again the NPD.
Even if he were to recover and become his best self I would be unlikely to forgive to the extent of let's start over, to love him uncconditionally. I forgive within a context that is all. And mostly because I don't want to hold on to anger or bitterness.
What do other people think?
THE GOSPEL OF LUKE HAS JESUS SAYING IN LUKE 17:3
if your brother offends you, rebuke him AND WHEN HE REPENTS forgive him....
the rebuke is out of love in order to help bring the person to a positive change thru repentance...
even tho by discernment one knows that the other might successfully bring more troubles upon oneself for rebuking them...
that they might use what they know of the world to turn others against one for doing the right thing...
that they might even know some of our weaknesses and vulnerabilities better than we do ourselves
and to make one hesitate from doing the right thing they give off an aura of emotional intimidation
that you might not even fully recognize how it affects you for giving a more real and true emotional response to them
and tho they might or might not believe that they are being more emotionally true than you are to them...
the narcissist would tend to think they are more emotionally true mostly and the
malignant narcissist or psychopath more likely knows they are using emotional blackmail and threats on the other more clearly.
now the context in luke is if it is someone who is a christian many want to say
and perhaps they are right in that context
but still i think there is a greater context
where brother is symbolic of someone who consciously [male being symbolic here of the active conscious mind in both sexes]
trying to take advantage of you in a way that is abusive to your spiritual integrity so as to rob you of your soul energy
in a way that will serve their own self aggrandizement.
one does not hate them for that seeing as they have lost their true understanding
of how such a kind of spiritual rebellion can be more damaging to their soul
but also that it can be dangerous to the energy of other souls who let themselves get caught up in their soul vampirish ways....
and the best response is rebuke even tho the other might try to crucify them on a cross:) hmmm am i christian
suffering for the sake of righteousness is part of the sermon on the mount and i think there is no way around
that for those who are true seekers...and no way around too suffering for the sake of others...but a need to be careful of not falling into a lessening of one's good energy by way of a false matyr complex....
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>>if your brother offends you, rebuke him AND WHEN HE REPENTS forgive him<<<
I understand brother to mean all people, we don't know who is christian or who is not, it is not like we can go arround and ask people if they are a christian or not , then decide based on the above to forgive or not forgive ( as if we had a choice)
still it is important --> WHEN HE repents forgive him......... AMEN!
Rumi quote: Beyond all our right doings and wrong doings there is a field I will meet you there!
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>>>I have a child who is locked in unforgiveness. His lack of forgiveness of his dad is spilling over into every other relationship that he has. It causes him to latch onto some people, whom he views as worthy, and to reject others whom he views as having hurt him--either by their actions or their lack of attention. He has rejected people who have been very kind to us because they didnt take a personal interest in him, individually. He has a giant forcefield erected around him that is angry and offputting. <<<<
oh boy you have described my step son to a T!!!!
this is exactly what he has done, ONLY what I see happening is , this unforgivness of his has turned him into the wounder as well as the wounded, but he just doesn't see that, or he sees it and deny's it..... the problem with him being "an Accountant" is that while he is keeping all these accounts on his dad...... these accounts have stacked up so high, effecting him to be able to see the accounts he is doing to others arround him............... and so he is able to justify his actions
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Hi Write
Right now I don't think forgiveness is an easy conscious choice. Maybe it's a conscious choice to want to forgive, to work for it, but the thing itself.....it's not like an intellectual decision? Forgiveness, for me, is a lack - a lack of wanting any revenge, apology or anything. Forgiveness is unconditional. i don't think it's linked to boundaries. I can forgive someone but still be wary of them and maintain my boundaries. Forgiveness seems to involve a lack of investment, a lack of caring about how the other person relates to you/oneself.
Hmmm maybe I'm talking here about something different than forgiveness? i don't know.
or.................what preceeds forgiveness? What needs to exist before forgiveness is necessary? A perceived injury i guess.
So..........I suppose it depends on what we see as injuries to ourselves? How personally we take things.
ramble ramble!
An unforgiving person should
be someone who is easily offended, highly invested in collecting
on debts owed to the self, and determined to assert his or her rights
in a principled effort to maintain self-respect.
sounds about right to me.
If one has to maintain self-respect through principled efforts to assert rights:
why does self-respect need maintaining in the first place? isn't self-respect something that is bedrock...it can be built, but maintained, once built? maintained suggests it is false.
principled efforts....based on (external?) principle and not on self-respect?
assert rights....okay, sometimes with twerps with need to assert rights: "I was first in this queue" but otherwise, we own our rights, we have our rights, they are part of us - we don't need to be determined to assert them in order to bolster up some facade
anyway that's what I think I think right now, but it's open to change :D
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just a quick post on this topic have not had time to read thread in depth.
I am working on forgiving myself for not caring for myself. I believe when I can do this the Ns in my life are not an issue they just drift away like smoke. By not forgiving myself I am tied to them and give them power over me. I have no interest in reconcilling with an abuser but I do want to experience my own forgiveness
axa
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absolutely Axa
how do I forgive myself? i understand and come to accept how I was tied to them: i see them realistically and forgive myself for my part in the dance, I become detached from the 'me' that was dancing and it/she becomes - irrelevant to who i am now, irrelevant in as much as it is not today, although it made up what is today. There is no shame and no attachment. I'm talking a lot of garbage today. For a change 8)
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DO NOT FORGIVE AND IT IS LIKE DRINKING POISON AND WAITING FOR THE PERSON YOU REFUSE TO FORGIVE TO DIE! I HAVE LEARNED THIS THE HARD WAY. My life has been one turmoil after another because my anger and unforgiveness turned to bitterness. I have carried extra weight, depression, and all lines of other ailments all because I HAD to harbour unforgiveness!
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About forgiving oneself...
this feels pertinent to something i have as an idea right now: the need, felt, to say to someone "I am sorry" almost without reference to whether they feel they were injured or not - that is the need to forgive me i think. Am I sorry to them? Yes, but only in the way that I understand their hurt. And if i do not understand their hurt, if I am assuming.....then the need to say sorry is all about me. Which is okay, as long as i realise that and as long as I have zero expectation regarding their response. ?
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just a quick post on this topic have not had time to read thread in depth.
I am working on forgiving myself for not caring for myself. I believe when I can do this the Ns in my life are not an issue they just drift away like smoke. By not forgiving myself I am tied to them and give them power over me. I have no interest in reconcilling with an abuser but I do want to experience my own forgiveness
axa
Amen!!! Good for you:-)
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if your brother offends you, rebuke him AND WHEN HE REPENTS forgive him....
the rebuke is out of love in order to help bring the person to a positive change thru repentance...
even tho by discernment one knows that the other might successfully bring more troubles upon oneself for rebuking them...
that they might use what they know of the world to turn others against one for doing the right thing...
that they might even know some of our weaknesses and vulnerabilities better than we do ourselves
and to make one hesitate from doing the right thing they give off an aura of emotional intimidation
that you might not even fully recognize how it affects you for giving a more real and true emotional response to them
and tho they might or might not believe that they are being more emotionally true than you are to them...
the narcissist would tend to think they are more emotionally true mostly and the
malignant narcissist or psychopath more likely knows they are using emotional blackmail and threats on the other more clearly.
now the context in luke is if it is someone who is a christian many want to say
and perhaps they are right in that context
but still i think there is a greater context
where brother is symbolic of someone who consciously [male being symbolic here of the active conscious mind in both sexes]
trying to take advantage of you in a way that is abusive to your spiritual integrity so as to rob you of your soul energy
in a way that will serve their own self aggrandizement.
one does not hate them for that seeing as they have lost their true understanding
of how such a kind of spiritual rebellion can be more damaging to their soul
but also that it can be dangerous to the energy of other souls who let themselves get caught up in their soul vampirish ways....
and the best response is rebuke even tho the other might try to crucify them on a cross:) hmmm am i christian
suffering for the sake of righteousness is part of the sermon on the mount and i think there is no way around
that for those who are true seekers...and no way around too suffering for the sake of others...but a need to be careful of not falling into a lessening of one's good energy by way of a false matyr complex....
Think about this though, if your brother offends you, rebuke him AND WHEN HE REPENTS forgive him....Do we really expect an "N" to repent? They are always right. As my Life Application Bible says: To rebuke does not mean to point out every sin we see; it means to bring sin to a person's attention with the purpose of restoring him or her to God and to fellow humans. When you feel you must rebuke another Christian for a sin, check your attitudes before you speak. Do you love the person? Are you willing to forgive? Unless rebuke is tied to forgivesness, it will not help the sinning person.
Make sense? We know that we are not supposed to point fingers in an accusing way. That will put up a wall. Bringing sin to a person's attention is tough. But, it can be done in a loving way.
An unforgiving person should
be someone who is easily offended, highly invested in collecting
on debts owed to the self, and determined to assert his or her rights
in a principled effort to maintain self-respect.
Think how a normal(whatever that is!) person reacts to an offense. We may ask for clarification over what may be a misunderstanding, then we may allow the other to disagree with us, then we let it go. End of it. The problem with an "N" is that they don't allow anyone to disagree with them. My NH is a salesman and he will go on and on trying to "sell" me on his opinion and showing me how I need to agree with him. In the end I outwardly agree, but inwardly, I am OK with him having a different opinion. He's OK because he (thinks) was able to get me on board with his opinion and then the subject is dropped.
I have forgiven my H. It is not his fault (the core of it) If I blame his father, it is not fair because his father's father died when he was 3 yo. You can' blame someone for dying. It is a nasty cycle to be stopped. God could've put me in H's life to do that. It is a battle but I will fight to the end.
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Write, I'm grateful for this topic. What a thoughtful, deep discussion. Wow, people.
Mum: you have such spiritual clarity, I am always moved by what you write. There is so much love in it.
Michael: I am a heathen. I differ with Jesus on this point. For me the definition of forgiveness has evolved past the WHEN HE REPENTS, then forgive him/her part. I ain't waiting around to judge whether one has repented hurting me or not. Of course, when a genuine apology appears, that is sweet and extra and I'm glad of it, for my sake and theirs. Makes it a reciprocal healing. But if it's a cruel or dangerous person and contact must be ended, then my forgiving them is a private step/moment/release/claim of peacefulness...and has to do more with my own spiritual progress than with any dialogue or relating with or demand for amends from the other person.
I also respond this way because one reason I drifted away from Christianity was my sense that so many people were very concerned with the state of other people's character, and, for example, would be delighted to use their laparoscopic discernment to poke around in another's soul for evidence of whether another's repentance was sincere. It was as though there was an "Aha! You're STAINED!" lurking everywhere. It didn't help me think straight. Psychology and poetry and amorphous faith have though.
"Rebuke" works for me in the sense that it suggests: Tell them NO. Or, STOP. Or, this is not acceptable and if you do it again I will ____ (leave, call cops, divorce you, take away your allowance).
Portia, me too, about having no expectations about their response...
The other thing for me that feels directly linked (and perhaps synonymous with, really) to forgiveness is compassion. When I tune into that, things become so simple. I keep coming back to that. It's like a default setting.
It was difficult to "get it" about having compassion for myself. In recent years, I do much better at it. And I've found that when I love other people now, it feels "cleaner". Lighter, in a way. And I think that's because I finally turned the light around and beamed it into my own chest. Intentionally aimed love at my bruised heart.
love to all a-y'all,
Hops
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Write, I'm grateful for this topic. What a thoughtful, deep discussion. Wow, people.
Mum: you have such spiritual clarity, I am always moved by what you write. There is so much love in it.
Michael: I am a heathen. I differ with Jesus on this point. For me the definition of forgiveness has evolved past the WHEN HE REPENTS, then forgive him/her part. I ain't waiting around to judge whether one has repented hurting me or not. Of course, when a genuine apology appears, that is sweet and extra and I'm glad of it, for my sake and theirs. Makes it a reciprocal healing. But if it's a cruel or dangerous person and contact must be ended, then my forgiving them is a private step/moment/release/claim of peacefulness...and has to do more with my own spiritual progress than with any dialogue or relating with or demand for amends from the other person.
I also respond this way because one reason I drifted away from Christianity was my sense that so many people were very concerned with the state of other people's character, and, for example, would be delighted to use their laparoscopic discernment to poke around in another's soul for evidence of whether another's repentance was sincere. It was as though there was an "Aha! You're STAINED!" lurking everywhere. It didn't help me think straight. Psychology and poetry and amorphous faith have though.
"Rebuke" works for me in the sense that it suggests: Tell them NO. Or, STOP. Or, this is not acceptable and if you do it again I will ____ (leave, call cops, divorce you, take away your allowance).
Portia, me too, about having no expectations about their response...
The other thing for me that feels directly linked (and perhaps synonymous with, really) to forgiveness is compassion. When I tune into that, things become so simple. I keep coming back to that. It's like a default setting.
It was difficult to "get it" about having compassion for myself. In recent years, I do much better at it. And I've found that when I love other people now, it feels "cleaner". Lighter, in a way. And I think that's because I finally turned the light around and beamed it into my own chest. Intentionally aimed love at my bruised heart.
love to all a-y'all,
Hops
ACTUALLY I AM NOT SO SURE WHAT YOU SEEM TO THINK IS DIFFERENT FROM JESUS'S TAKE
UPON DEEPER STUDY OF JESUS WOULD BE THAT ALL THAT DIFFERENT
..i kind of think you have more of a bad aftertaste about jesus from what others said jesus
was than what he really was. ..:)
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Just a thought,,,
I know I've forgiven when all desire to seek revenge has dissipated. I don't think genuinely forgiving another precludes pursuing that which is owed. It simply changes the direction or method one uses if there is something to be reclaimed. I mean that in the sense that nurturing unforgiveness can become a job in itself eating up time and energy that would be better spent focused on reclaiming that which has been taken and redirecting one's energy toward the higher calling of wholeness.
I'm not trying to define forgiveness here, only commenting on the nuisances of the process.
tt
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Hi Write
Right now I don't think forgiveness is an easy conscious choice. Maybe it's a conscious choice to want to forgive, to work for it, but the thing itself.....it's not like an intellectual decision? Forgiveness, for me, is a lack - a lack of wanting any revenge, apology or anything. Forgiveness is unconditional. i don't think it's linked to boundaries. I can forgive someone but still be wary of them and maintain my boundaries. Forgiveness seems to involve a lack of investment, a lack of caring about how the other person relates to you/oneself.
Hmmm maybe I'm talking here about something different than forgiveness? i don't know.
or.................what preceeds forgiveness? What needs to exist before forgiveness is necessary? A perceived injury i guess.
So..........I suppose it depends on what we see as injuries to ourselves? How personally we take things.
ramble ramble!
An unforgiving person should
be someone who is easily offended, highly invested in collecting
on debts owed to the self, and determined to assert his or her rights
in a principled effort to maintain self-respect.
sounds about right to me.
If one has to maintain self-respect through principled efforts to assert rights:
why does self-respect need maintaining in the first place? isn't self-respect something that is bedrock...it can be built, but maintained, once built? maintained suggests it is false.
principled efforts....based on (external?) principle and not on self-respect?
assert rights....okay, sometimes with twerps with need to assert rights: "I was first in this queue" but otherwise, we own our rights, we have our rights, they are part of us - we don't need to be determined to assert them in order to bolster up some facade
anyway that's what I think I think right now, but it's open to change :D
hi portia,
i am not sure how to quote here but from your above post where u say
.....
If one has to maintain self-respect through principled efforts to assert rights:
why does self-respect need maintaining in the first place? isn't self-respect something that is bedrock...it can be built, but maintained, once built? maintained suggests it is false.
principled efforts....based on (external?) principle and not on self-respect?
assert rights....okay, sometimes with twerps with need to assert rights: "I was first in this queue" but otherwise, we own our rights, we have our rights, they are part of us - we don't need to be determined to assert them in order to bolster up some facade.............
DOES THIS HELP..TRUE SELF RESPECT REQUIRES RESPECING THE DIVINE POTENTIAL IN OTHERS...WHICH BY THE WAY I THINK IS DIFFERENT FOR HUMAN SOULS THAN ANIMAL SOULS PROBABLY....not that we shouldnt respect animals as part of the divine plan....for more detail see edgar cayce materials :)....AND PART OF CONCERN FOR OTHERS BAD BEHAVIOUR CAN BE BEST EXPRESSED FOR SOME OF THEIR SINS BY REBUKING THEM AND NOT FORGIVING THEM TILL THE REPENT AS IN LUKE 17:3 PERHAPS...IN THAT CONTEXT JESUS SAID WHEN ASKED HOW MANY TIMES, IT SAYS 7 TIMES IN THE SAME DAY..WHICH AT FIRST BOGGLED MY MIND TILL I GOT MORE FAMILIAR WITH WOMEN IN PMS....DO THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DONG :)? ...ANYWAYS....
THERE REMAINS THE ASPECT IF ONE DISCERNS THAT THEIR REPENTANCE MIGHT NOT BE REALLY SINCERE BUT A TRICK...AND THEN A TRICK THEY ARE CONSCIOUSLY DOING OR IN A SENSE INNOCENTLY NOT AWARE OF THEIR OWN TRICKINESS IF THE LATER IS THE CASE I THINK WHAT ONE MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO IN SOME CASES TO BE ABLE TO SHOW THEM HOW WHAT THEY THINK IS SINCERE REPENTANCE IS A TRICK THAT IF ONE BUYS IT ..A PART OF THE SUBCONSCIOUS TRICKERY OF THE REPENTER WOULD PICK UP THAT YOUR INTEGRITY HAS BEEN COOPTED OUT SOME ....NOW SOMETIMES HOW I THINK THAT THE SUBCONSCIOUS DOES THIS IS THAT THE NARCISSIST OR OTHERS HAVE ATTRACTED NEGATIVE ENTITIES THAT ARE USING THE NARCISSIST OR OTHERS CONFUSED STATE TO WEAKEN THE SOUL OF OTHERS AND TRY TO ACCESS THE OTHERS SOULS ENERGIES IN A VAMPIRE KIND OF WAY...
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I think the argument is made that Christ is referring to Christians when he uses the terms "brother" and "when they repent" because of the whole counsel of the bible. We are told later by Paul that Christians are to hold accountable other Christians but that we are not to judge the world. Elsewhere Christ tells us to bless, not curse, those who spitefully use us. We are told to turn the other cheek to our enemies, not rebuke them. If they thirst we are to give them a drink of water.
It seems clear to me that Christians have an obligation to forgive unconditionally, as Portia put it, those who they do not know to be Christians. Likewise they have an obligation to correct and exhort to righteousness those Christians who have sinned against them.
As His followers Christians are to do their best not to bring shame or disrepute to Christ. A non Christian's sin brings no disrepute to Christ, but a Christian's does. That is why we are to forgive the former and correct the latter.
As CB, tt and others have pointed out though, nowhere are we required to continue to subject ourselves to abuse as a condition of forgiveness. We may be called at certain times to subject ourselves to the abuse of others for their own good or the good of a third party, but we should not confuse that act of mercy with some self flagellating form of forgiveness. If we return to be abused in the vain hope we are somehow forgiving the offender we are commiting a form of self abuse.
And as others have pointed out our forgiveness is independent of the offender suffering the legal, moral or spiritual consequences of their offense. Our forgiveness doesn't keep criminals out of jail. There may be certain times that it might be wise to extend enough mercy to an offender that it might mitigate the consequences of their actions, but we should be very, very, very careful that we are not feeding the beast that lurks in their heart rather than diminishing it.
I think the point about standing on our rights primarily refers to a Christian's obligation to emulate Christ. He could very well have stood on His rights and not gone to the cross. But for our sakes he did not stand on His rights even though it cost Him a great deal. This is one of those challenging doctrines that test a Christian's faith. I struggle with it daily.
mud
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Forgiveness,
I don't know if I forgave or not.
When I was done I was done. I felt nothing as if I never was married to this man. I still feel that way. When I talk about what took place it's now just a story no emotion.
I do not forget the trials and hurdles that I had to overcome but I look at it as a good thing, not bad.
I think I would have to agree with Axa. I had to forgive myself for harming myself by being in that situation and choosing to stay once I was able to recognize (abuse) but choose (denial).
So as far as my abuser I have no feelings towards him. He can be what he wishes to be/stay/become. I have no attachment to him in any way.
I had left my husband when my kids were very little so they did not get to experience *hard hit* by what their dad was or did.
I think I would have to have some personal feelings towards my ex in order to be able to say I forgive or not.
I have nothing.
He did not make me who I am/was, I did. And I am who I always was just got a little waysided for a bit.
Yes the forgiveness is for myself. This was a personal growth and healing for me. Personal!!! he was not personal to me.
Took me a long time to figure that out.
Love
Deb
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Michael, thanks for addressing my post.
TRUE SELF RESPECT REQUIRES RESPECING THE DIVINE POTENTIAL IN OTHERS.
i think true self-respect requires respecting others as human beings. Not sure about divine potential, not really my bag.
WHICH AT FIRST BOGGLED MY MIND TILL I GOT MORE FAMILIAR WITH WOMEN IN PMS....DO THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DONG
this caught my eye Michael. Have we corresponded on PM I wonder?
Rebuking people for their sins.........tricky. Who decides what is a sin? Murder is a sin, but we licence it, so I'm not sure about blanket rules. It depends, a lot of the time.
Repentence is in the mind and heart of the repentor I think. We like to see repentence in law courts, but that's because we require something from the criminal (we are weak there imo). But true repentence is for the sinner, not the observer (unless the observer is omnipotent) I think.
Hops, yes, compassion. Firm compassion, if that makes sense! Compassion with boundaries? Compassion for self and others. Balance too.
Interesting thread Write!
Mud I'm going to study your reply later. Bet you wanted to know that :P
Deb: he was not personal to me I love this. So true, so full of meaning 8)
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Michael, thanks for addressing my post.
TRUE SELF RESPECT REQUIRES RESPECING THE DIVINE POTENTIAL IN OTHERS.
i think true self-respect requires respecting others as human beings. Not sure about divine potential, not really my bag.
WHICH AT FIRST BOGGLED MY MIND TILL I GOT MORE FAMILIAR WITH WOMEN IN PMS....DO THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DONG
this caught my eye Michael. Have we corresponded on PM I wonder?
Rebuking people for their sins.........tricky. Who decides what is a sin? Murder is a sin, but we licence it, so I'm not sure about blanket rules. It depends, a lot of the time.
Repentence is in the mind and heart of the repentor I think. We like to see repentence in law courts, but that's because we require something from the criminal (we are weak there imo). But true repentence is for the sinner, not the observer (unless the observer is omnipotent) I think.
Hops, yes, compassion. Firm compassion, if that makes sense! Compassion with boundaries? Compassion for self and others. Balance too.
Interesting thread Write!
Mud I'm going to study your reply later. Bet you wanted to know that :P
Deb: he was not personal to me I love this. So true, so full of meaning 8)
WE ALL CAN DISCERN SIN...
BEST DONE THO WHEN WE HAVE fully repented of our old sin nature and accepted the holy spirit
which as jesus says in last supper discourse teaches all things...
jesus speaks of 3 kinds of sin in luke 12
which essentially are i think
to know evil and do evil that can bring damnation to the soul but i do not think scriipture
really says that damnation is eternal...
sin number 2 is to know good but not to it
with such an attitude one cannot purge evil completely from one's soul
sin number 3 i am not sure i quite fully understand
but it is a lesser sin than sin number 2
now the sin that is surly rebukable i think might be number 1
perhaps this answer answered some of your other questions :) too
so sin is all in the attitude with which one does something
for what might be a sin for someone , might not be sin for another....
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Forgiveness,
I don't know if I forgave or not.
When I was done I was done. I felt nothing as if I never was married to this man. I still feel that way. When I talk about what took place it's now just a story no emotion.
I do not forget the trials and hurdles that I had to overcome but I look at it as a good thing, not bad.
I think I would have to agree with Axa. I had to forgive myself for harming myself by being in that situation and choosing to stay once I was able to recognize (abuse) but choose (denial).
So as far as my abuser I have no feelings towards him. He can be what he wishes to be/stay/become. I have no attachment to him in any way.
I had left my husband when my kids were very little so they did not get to experience *hard hit* by what their dad was or did.
I think I would have to have some personal feelings towards my ex in order to be able to say I forgive or not.
I have nothing.
He did not make me who I am/was, I did. And I am who I always was just got a little waysided for a bit.
Yes the forgiveness is for myself. This was a personal growth and healing for me. Personal!!! he was not personal to me.
Took me a long time to figure that out.
Love
Deb
BY THE SPIRIT i think we are all intimitately connected with all that is
by the grace of the salvation plan and our material bodies and our solar system...
we are so constituted into a sin nature where we come face to face with our past karma
to experience the intimate connection with the whole that was lost thru spiritual rebellion...
which probably happened before most took on material bodies
except for an occasional angel like me who chooses to come in
so as to bring more helpful
even tho sometimes i wonder what was i thinking...:)
a deep study of the book of romans speaks to this
but i dont think most christians miss some key points in romans
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CB,
Not to get off the topic but I wanted to reply.
My kids *adult* have a forefield around them too! I think that somewhere along the line all young adults do.
I believe if our children came from thee most healthy of families they still would have one. Maybe we would not just notice it so much. I think that we are more aware because of what we have been through where we came from is why we do.
I do believe that everyone has skeletons in their closest. We are not unique in problems. Some have more or less.
I think your son can work it out. I think he is trying too. Maybe not always the way we hope they do but that is part of growing. Live and learn. Sometimes I have a very hard time with my kids making their choices because I know they are going to fall flat on their faces and they do. Then other times I was the one who was wrong and they were right. My thoughts of maybe a bad choice proved to be correct for them and the right choice. And yes my kids project and get angry and blame others too. Eventually they come around and own it.
I think your son will really work it out. Your a role model for him and will always be there for him and he knows this.
It's what they count on even if they don't say it.
I do think that if my kids had contact with their father they would not be feeling any different feelings they your (son) children do. I know they would be.
And who really knows if my kids are not feeling backlash to a father who really never gave a damn about them. Maybe they don't even know,yet. Maybe they have worked it out or maybe it will come up later. I really don't know. I hope it has passed and it is not really buried just to come up later. All we can do is hope and pray.
Love
Deb
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WHICH AT FIRST BOGGLED MY MIND TILL I GOT MORE FAMILIAR WITH WOMEN IN PMS....DO THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DONG
this caught my eye Michael. Have we corresponded on PM I wonder?
It caught my eye too. I thought it was in reference to Pre Menstrual Syndrome rather than Personal Message(S).
I figured there was gonna be whole lot of rebukin' and repentin' goin on round here. :P :lol: :shock:
Guess my reading comprehension isn't what it should be. :?
mud
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The other thing that I wanted to throw into the discussion about forgiveness is that I am not sure that it has to have a particular feeling to go with it. Since forgiveness is a choice, but feelings are not, it seems to me that forgiveness can't be dependent on feelings.
It seems to me that if we refuse to take action on feelings that would demand revenge, then that would qualify as forgiveness--even if the feelings remain unchanged.
CB
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Hi CB,
As I post these articles which I have written to my daughter and hear her honest replies, I feel more and more forgiveness on both sides.
Eventually iit will come if I don't blow it.
We live 2000 miles aprt, but we are still mother and daughter. and if the words of forgiveness come forward, then the ACTION of forgiveness must follow--but what do we do with the the geographical distance?????
I am the disabled one who cannot travel-- She and the kids would have to fly out here--and really it is just her and me. THe kids would have to stay alone, ---18 and 15.
Time will tell
We are not quite ready for that!
Love
Izzy
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We all know how N's are created.
I don't.
mud
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Well mud, you must have an idea. I do because I have heard about the childhood of a little boy turned to a grown up N.
I also have read so many posts from others, about the childhood of their Ns, that we are sure, alomg with scienrtists, the N-isn begins in early childhood from either of the following 2 reasons
1.) being given too much and always being the Golden Boy who could never do wrong
2.) being physically and verbally abused so badly that he could see no reason why he would have a good life and set out to ruin the lives of others.
That make any sense?
Izzy
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Forgiveness..... as I understand it and relate to it..... can be as simple as letting go.
If someone is requesting forgiveness, however...... that's a different matter.
I once read the Jewish requirements for forgiveness and embraced them as rational and accepted them.
1) The person asking forgiveness should state what they've done, how their actions affected the other person, why they did what they did, how they're going to avoid doing it in the future and finally, and most importantly.... NOT do it again.
I believe that if a person asks for forgiveness the right way 9 times.... and does not receive it.... the person refusing to forgive is committing a sin. Don't quote me exactly but this is what I took from the information. Margo
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Izzy,
Well mud, you must have an idea.
I suspect some are created the way you describe or at least the treatment you describe may contribute to the formation of
Ns. However others seem not to have had excessive 'Golden Boy' treatment, overt or covert abuse or parental neglect. A lot of these people seem to come from relatively happy homes. So, no I can't really say I have any idea what creates a lot of Ns.
That make any sense?
Sure. However lots of things that make sense aren't actually true. Maybe the things you mention create all Ns or maybe some fraction of them of either lesser or greater size. Or maybe they just sound plausible so we assume they are. I put very little stock in what psychology has to say about either the origin or the cure for many disorders. I do however think it is highly valuable in the diagnosis and description of mental illness.
mud
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Izzy
Eventually iit will come if I don't blow it.
I read your other threads. Me, I think 'failure' becomes the result only when one of you is dead. Until then, there is always opportunity for things to change. ?
We live 2000 miles aprt, but we are still mother and daughter. and if the words of forgiveness come forward, then the ACTION of forgiveness must follow--but what do we do with the the geographical distance?????
Is there an action of forgiveness? If forgiveness is in my heart and another's heart, it is there. To know that we are understood and loved - that can happen without physical proximity i think. At least, i think I've experienced that. What is in the heart (or head) to me is bigger than distance. Maybe that helps, maybe not!
Michael,
you've lost me I'm afraid. i don't understand but no worries there. I often don't understand. :)
Mud,
read your post page 2 and it pretty much makes sense to me, as i see it. Is it okay for a non-Christian to attempt to emulate Christ? Without believing in God as such? Pondering. Rhetorical question really. Wondering where a lack of faith in this sense, but a willingness to understand and agree with some/most of the ideas, places a non-believer. Wondering why the difference is such a big difference (which it seems to be?) and does it have to be? Ha - in other words - can we decide to change the rules? Now I'm making my own head hurt.
Michael and Mud,
PMS - I don't know which was meant. PMS also means a bus company to me but I thought it meant PMs. (hey......I can have pre, post and mid menstrual tension!)
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Is it okay for a non-Christian to attempt to emulate Christ? Without believing in God as such?
Certainly, but I'm not sure why anyone would want to do it without a belief that He was your salvation. It entails being routinely kicked in the head when attempting to love your enemy. It's considerably more pleasant to adopt the 'eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die' attitude if you do not believe.
Ha - in other words - can we decide to change the rules?
If you believe the rules to be manmade you are certainly entitled to change them, subject to the imposition of other people's own version of the rules of course. The problem arises upon our inevitable visit to Shakespeare's 'undiscovered country' wherein I believe we will find that the rules were immutably written before we existed and they were explained to us fully in the here and now as was who the author is, but most of us chose to write our own version anyway.
mud
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Hi Mud,
I have retained Christian ethics although not the belief system or semantics.
It is a core truth for me that Do Unto Others is the point. Other vocabulary for me that fits is compassion.
(Meaning that in a very athletic way...)
So whether or not I believe Christ is my salvation (I don't find the formula constructive) I believe I am, or more likely many others are, "as good as" fine Christians, whether or not they accept the belief statements.
I know it's a club you can't join without joining it, but I think some'd be happy to have me come to the picnics, if they didn't have those membership rules that meant they weren't allowed to accept me.
Convolutedly,
Hops
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Thanks Mud. Why would anyone want to? For the love of humanity maybe, for thinking that we don't have to choose to destroy ourselves, for thinking that there is something worthwhile about us, for a feeling (not a thought) of belonging to all. Yes i can see it would be more pleasant to eat drink and be merry (and sometimes I do!) but.......you know....I said to my H the other day, in future, maybe not too far away, people will say: they knew what was happening and they didn't stop it, they allowed the carnage to continue. It's not easy I know, to stop people wanting to kill each other, to grab land etc...but being merry to me is always in the knowledge that someone somewhere is not able to be merry, as it were. Okay, splurging my stuff on here isn't helping any, but it's only my thoughts and feelings I'm yakking about - I ain't solving any problems and I don't pretend to.
Loving my enemy.......does that have to be active (so you get kicked in the head), or can it be passive? I might love my enemy.....from a great distance. If I don't understand the meaning of loving my enemy, I promise it's true ignorance on my part.
The thing is....I don't do any of this thinking because of an external pull, i do it well, because I want to. I want to just because I want to, not because of anything else. (Death doesn't come into it for me.) Ah - maybe there is something in the idea that I'm not exactly looking for salvation? i don't think I am. Hmmm. Maybe there's a clue for me. As always, thanks for helping me work out the grey matter....
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A NOT SO FINE TOOTH COMB ---- GOING OVER SOME OF POSTS IN THIS THREAD...
FROM POST BY MUD...
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2007, 01:09:48 PM .... I think the argument is made that Christ is referring to Christians when he uses the terms "brother" and "when they repent" because of the whole counsel of the bible. We are told later by Paul that Christians are to hold accountable other Christians but that we are not to judge the world. Elsewhere Christ tells us to bless, not curse, those who spitefully use us. We are told to turn the other cheek to our enemies, not rebuke them. If they thirst we are to give them a drink of water.
It seems clear to me that Christians have an obligation to forgive unconditionally, as Portia put it, those who they do not know to be Christians. Likewise they have an obligation to correct and exhort to righteousness those Christians who have sinned against them.
As His followers Christians are to do their best not to bring shame or disrepute to Christ. A non Christian's sin brings no disrepute to Christ, but a Christian's does. That is why we are to forgive the former and correct the latter.
YES IN THAT PASSAGE THE CONTEXT THE REFERENCE IS AS TO FELLOW CHRISTIANS....BUT SOME ASPECTS I THINK CAN BE STRETCHED TO A WIDER CONTEST AS I SUGGESTED THAT WHEN A NON CHRISTIAN COMMITS A CERTAIN KIND OF SIN THAT THE APPROBRIATE ACTION CAN BE REBUKE.... JESUS CERTAINLY POINTED OUT OTHERS HYPOCRISY IN WHAT I THINK WAS A KIND OF REBUKE....AND PERHAPS A LARGER PART OF WHY CRUCIFICTION OF JESUS WAS SOUGHT BY LEADERS AND ELDERS OF THE JEWS..... PERHAPS A FURTHER STUDY OF THE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED AS REBUKE IN LUKE MIGHT HELP AT SOME...THE POINT... there seems to be maybe an assumption made that non christians are not aware of their choice of evil and tnus should be automatically forgiven.... which i am not so sure is correct....surely tho as jesus said tis true if the case truely be..forgive them for they know not what they do.... but that to me is not the nature a type of sin jesus speaks of in luke 12... where that kind of sin has the consequences of being caste among unbelievers and the body being torn asunder...and i do not think believers there refers just to christians rather non believers in the golden rule....that allows self justification for knowing one is doing evil to another and thinks one can get away with it successfully for self aggrandizement ....something narcissists and pyschopaths seem to be into....
but on different levels...
now as to a portia post
Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2007, 08:06:08 AM .... Forgiveness is unconditional. i don't think it's linked to boundaries. I can forgive someone but still be wary of them and maintain my boundaries. Forgiveness seems to involve a lack of investment, a lack of caring about how the other person relates to you/oneself.
i think one is not as effective as one could be if one is not clear of boundaries of different types...
and as jesus suggests in some cases .... readiness to forgive should be always there but not given in some cases if the other does not repent as that could make one guilty in a way of enabling bad behaviour and in a way is what narcissists and pscyopaths seek is a trick to coopt your energy and integrity as that can make it easier for them to manipulate others for their own self aggrandizement at your expense tho they might think that they are including you in a new and wonderful world as they see it...more the narcissist case there usually i think..but if u question their wonderful world you can be seen as evil or a danger that is best neutralized if they can....
i could say more but some might say fortunately .....
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Is it okay for a non-Christian to attempt to emulate Christ? Without believing in God as such?
Certainly, but I'm not sure why anyone would want to do it without a belief that He was your salvation.
I don't believe in heaven or the literal interpretation of the metaphorical or mythological aspects of religion but I follow Christ. His teachings are very good ways to live and a good path to G_d.
I think we misinterpret 'love' sometimes though, we tie it up with an outcome, you know I believe in interfaith, the Buddhists call it attachment. We attach certain expectations to 'love'. But it is possible to love and simply be, do nothing.
Jesus was very clear about behaviours he encouraged, taking care of the poor, feed the hungry, comfort others. I have come to a place where I hand most things to G_d though. I do what I can.
I feel that way about ex now. I love him, and I help practically and emotionally where I can. But I am not helping anyone merely to suffer and suffer, or allowing him to abuse me.
Before- I think I thought it was somehow Christian and noble to suffer, now I see it more as enabling his bad behaviour also not taking full responsibility for myself.
There is also a cultural aspect to my chosen religion; Buddhism is the only other religion I have followed closely but it always felt somewhat affected and I found myself often praying and thinking in the constructs of my CHristian background.
I have full confidence to live my faith as I see it now, Jesus said love G_d above all things and your fellow as yourself were the most important commandments.
If G_d called me to be a Muslim though I would. It is my relationship with G_d, or whatever people call it, which is important. I have never been led astray when I have acted in love.
Our religions go wrong when we forget G_d is love in my opinion; we try to make G_d a person with human qualities and project ours. When people do bad things and say it was guided of G_d, I don't think it was.
I use the sermon on the mount mostly as my guidance, and I studied the Greek too and the gnostic texts and Judaism.
Jesus said 'if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.'
I have no anger towards the abusive people in my life, but then I have done a lot of therapy, a lot of praying and a lot of tears...
Forgiveness for me as a Christian is handing it to G_d.
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`Wow, What amazing posts.
I feel a bit simplistic really. I try and live my life the way I would want others to treat me. I do not think about salvation and do not practise any particular religion. Maybe I am coming from a completely selfish perspective but I know if I treat others badly I feel badly so maybe my motivation is purely selfish....
I think about do I forgive another XN in my life. I feel nothing for him. He treated me very badly but somehow that seems to have faded to some extent. I still acknowledge the lies etc but feel nothing about him. Maybe that is as near as I can come to forgiveness. I think, as i have said in another post, that my goal is to forgive myself.
I believe this is deep seated and linked to the fact that I could not "save my Nparents" from a life of anger and rage. I keep rerunning the pattern of N relationship with the crazy hope of maybe if I can get an N to stop being angry(which we all know is an absolute waste of time) it will let me off the hook for not "fixing" my parents lives.
There are so many posts I want to refer to but the thread is so long I cant do that. Someone posted that maybe forgiveness is about not being connected or something along that lines. My question is is forgiveness about taking back your own power? My sense is that it is all about ourselves. We can never undo what was done. Ns IME are not too concerned about whether or not they are forgiven. It is the victim is left with the "burden" of forgiveness. But I wonder is it a burden that has been there since childhood and we are just rerunning the tapes with the current/XN?
Axa
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Michael
readiness to forgive should be always there but not given in some cases if the other does not repent as that could make one guilty in a way of enabling bad behaviour
I see what you mean, if you see forgiveness as an active event. I think sometimes it is - your forgiveness of a transgression of mine helps me change and changes our relationship. Okay, that's where forgiveness is part of a process between two people, a process of understanding, reconciliation etc.
On the other hand, i do see another type of forgiveness as something that happens inside me. It's a letting go of blame, of any thoughts of being owed a debt, of letting go the idea that is my place to do any rebuking. If my heart does not hold on to the wish for revenge, if the injury does not hurt any more as it did, then I can forgive, i think. BUT this type of forgiveness is not necessarily reciprocal. It happens to one person and is about them, it's not about a living relationship.
Is forgiveness given, so much as *accepted* by the one who has transgressed? If you forgive me, does that pave the way for me to forgive myself? And which of those is more important or interesting?
and in a way is what narcissists and pscyopaths seek is a trick to coopt your energy and integrity
Well I've been here a long time and over this time I've kind of come to an acceptance of how i see Ns and psychopaths. Done a lot of thinking. Unless they're threatening me with a knife, or about to blow up another country, I'm not afraid of either. I may meet some people who wish to trick me, but it doesn't worry me so much any more. I don't spend too much time thinking about Ns and psychopaths, and i don't see them as my enemy. Do you?
i could say more but some might say fortunately .....
I smiled Michael :)
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Write
But it is possible to love and simply be, do nothing.
oh yes i agree
Axa
Maybe I am coming from a completely selfish perspective but I know if I treat others badly I feel badly so maybe my motivation is purely selfish....
how about reciprocal? we don't exist alone. We need each other.
My question is is forgiveness about taking back your own power?
I beginning to think so (because of thinking around this thread, thank you Write!). I forgive because I'm not holding on to anything that makes me feel bad - revenge, hurt, unmet needs... there's nothing I want or need from the one I thought i wanted to forgive. ? how about you? I think feeling nothing is the start of forgiveness, well, for me, yes. Forgiveness is what we say in our hearts: i think for us "I forgive you" - we say that to ourselves to know that we're free.
I read years ago on some list of 100 things to do before you die: Forgive your parents ....
and I scoffed. No way! Why should I! but I have and they have no idea of that. They don't need to know. They don't need to know all the ways i was hurt, from my perspective. I needed to know....
love, P
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Hi Axa,
I know what you mean. I used to feel forgiveness was a burden, a thing I "had" to do in order to be a good person.
After hearing that sermon on it, which was timed really well for me...I think it's switched over. I don't feel forgiveness is a burden any more. I feel it (I literally feel it, rather than "I think this about it") is a opportunity.
And I don't think it can be forced. I think it is part of healing, and it almost sneaks up on you. Like, when you're doing every other thing you can to heal yourself and restore your sense of sanity and find positive community and become connected and look for reasons to be hopeful or at lest peaceful, then you can all of a sudden realize, I forgive ___.
And then it's such a relief. I think the not-able-to-forgive state is the burden...it feels heavy.
I have one person I still would like to forgive. (Last Nbf...it's been 2 years.) I shy away from thinking about him and when I did run into him once I felt very cold.
The biggest challenge for me is the feeling that they have future victims. Very difficult to let that go, let the future victims be on their own in that howling void. But I can't rescue them.
I guess that's why people pray for others, sometimes it's all you can do.
love
Hops
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CB,
Your story has moved my emotions alot... I don't really have any comments under this thread but I would like to talk to you.
Hurt
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Hurt,
I received your PM as well. Although I would love to trust everyone who comes on this board, experience has shown that that is not wise.
Give us all a chance to get to know you before we share specifics of our stories. I know that you have a lot to share--anyone whose handle is "Hurt", has a lot beneath the surface. And we really are here to listen to anyone who needs a place to vent and tell our stories. I told mine when I first came, and the support I found here was such help. I think we have all found that it is in the telling and retelling of what we have been through that we bring about our own healing. It's a catharsis that can't happen by only listening to what others have been through.
You are welcome here and I hope you'll share more.
CB
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Write
But it is possible to love and simply be, do nothing.
oh yes i agree
Axa
Maybe I am coming from a completely selfish perspective but I know if I treat others badly I feel badly so maybe my motivation is purely selfish....
how about reciprocal? we don't exist alone. We need each other.
My question is is forgiveness about taking back your own power?
I beginning to think so (because of thinking around this thread, thank you Write!). I forgive because I'm not holding on to anything that makes me feel bad - revenge, hurt, unmet needs... there's nothing I want or need from the one I thought i wanted to forgive. ? how about you? I think feeling nothing is the start of forgiveness, well, for me, yes. Forgiveness is what we say in our hearts: i think for us "I forgive you" - we say that to ourselves to know that we're free.
I read years ago on some list of 100 things to do before you die: Forgive your parents ....
and I scoffed. No way! Why should I! but I have and they have no idea of that. They don't need to know. They don't need to know all the ways i was hurt, from my perspective. I needed to know....
love, P
ALL RIGHTY NOW...
THE FIRST PART FROM ABOVE ABOUT..But it is possible to love and simply be, do nothing.
oh yes i agree
IT IS POSSIBLE PERHAPS IN A WAY WHERE DOING NOTHING IS DOING THE RIGHT THING
..i am not sure what the context was for the statement IT IS POSSIBLE TO LOVE AND SIMPLY BE..if for a particular situation
not reacting in a certain way to how one is being pressued to act is doing the right thing but it is still a doing
of love and willingness to do when the time is right for doing.... but sometimes the right thing is to rebuke in love...
sometimes it is to take the burden of others as our own in a way that helps the other see the light...sometimes taking the other burden
can enable their bad behaviour and is not the right thing to do.....THE REAL WHAT TO DO IS THE POWER OF DISCERNMENT THAT COMES
FULLY WITH THE ENABLING ATTITUDE THAT MAKES ONE ONE WITH THE WHOLE...to consider the needs of others before one's own...and this
can give the discernment when rebuking is right to do and when forgiving is right to do and when taking anothers burden ..suffering for anothers sake
..how to do that correctly...it is our human fallen nature ..our spiritual rebellion as explained for the discerning in paul's romans..that makes it seem
so hard to discern .... because one's past of having sought self glory and not given all glory to the one true and eternal creator...
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A NOT SO FINE TOOTH COMB ---- GOING OVER SOME OF POSTS IN THIS THREAD...
FROM POST BY MUD...
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2007, 01:09:48 PM .... I think the argument is made that Christ is referring to Christians when he uses the terms "brother" and "when they repent" because of the whole counsel of the bible. We are told later by Paul that Christians are to hold accountable other Christians but that we are not to judge the world. Elsewhere Christ tells us to bless, not curse, those who spitefully use us. We are told to turn the other cheek to our enemies, not rebuke them. If they thirst we are to give them a drink of water.
It seems clear to me that Christians have an obligation to forgive unconditionally, as Portia put it, those who they do not know to be Christians. Likewise they have an obligation to correct and exhort to righteousness those Christians who have sinned against them.
As His followers Christians are to do their best not to bring shame or disrepute to Christ. A non Christian's sin brings no disrepute to Christ, but a Christian's does. That is why we are to forgive the former and correct the latter.
YES IN THAT PASSAGE THE CONTEXT THE REFERENCE IS AS TO FELLOW CHRISTIANS....BUT SOME ASPECTS I THINK CAN BE STRETCHED TO A WIDER CONTEST AS I SUGGESTED THAT WHEN A NON CHRISTIAN COMMITS A CERTAIN KIND OF SIN THAT THE APPROBRIATE ACTION CAN BE REBUKE.... JESUS CERTAINLY POINTED OUT OTHERS HYPOCRISY IN WHAT I THINK WAS A KIND OF REBUKE....AND PERHAPS A LARGER PART OF WHY CRUCIFICTION OF JESUS WAS SOUGHT BY LEADERS AND ELDERS OF THE JEWS..... PERHAPS A FURTHER STUDY OF THE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED AS REBUKE IN LUKE MIGHT HELP AT SOME...THE POINT... there seems to be maybe an assumption made that non christians are not aware of their choice of evil and tnus should be automatically forgiven.... which i am not so sure is correct....surely tho as jesus said tis true if the case truely be..forgive them for they know not what they do.... but that to me is not the nature a type of sin jesus speaks of in luke 12... where that kind of sin has the consequences of being caste among unbelievers and the body being torn asunder...and i do not think believers there refers just to christians rather non believers in the golden rule....that allows self justification for knowing one is doing evil to another and thinks one can get away with it successfully for self aggrandizement ....something narcissists and pyschopaths seem to be into....but on different levels...
Michael, on another post, you mentioned reincarnation. How does that fit into Chrisitanity? Someone else mentioned they don't believe in Heaven. How can you believe in Jesus and God and not believe in heaven? I want to understand.
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Hops,
So whether or not I believe Christ is my salvation (I don't find the formula constructive)......
Whether one finds the formula constructive seems a little beside the point. The question is whether it is true. But I suspect you were, as usual, being considerate of others feelings by using a euphamism for "I don't believe He was anything more than a man".
I believe I am, or more likely many others are, "as good as" fine Christians, whether or not they accept the belief statements
There are many non Christians who are far more "good" than most Christians. Unfortunately or perhaps fortunately depending on your perspective, it is not a question of our goodness, for as Christ said there is none who is truly good but God. Once we begin to measure our goodness against others we are reduced to the state of the Pharisee praying to God by thanking Him he is not like other men, because he is more virtuous. We are instead implored by Christ to be like the tax collector, who prayed for God to have mercy on him, a miserable sinner. Pride or humility are always in some way our two fundamental choices, aren't they?
Portia,
Loving my enemy.......does that have to be active (so you get kicked in the head), or can it be passive?
Well, it can be both of course. But if it is only passive it might be a bit of a self-serving kind of love which seems to be one of those oxymorons people are always mentioning. Is loving your enemy without any risk really love? It's not a call to expose yourself to pointless abuse of course, but sometimes we are called to get kicked in the head for the good of others.
The thing is....I don't do any of this thinking because of an external pull, i do it well, because I want to.
You seem to be presupposing that we can know, without doubt, what it is that motivates us. If there are external forces that can exert internal pulls on us how do we know what is of us and what is not? Our external senses are notoriously fallible. Why should we assume our internal ones are any better?
mud
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Mud..........exactly, both points. Thanks so much for that.
'I' am feeling like i often feel which is a sort of dancing shiny question mark. It feels okay. I can live with it :D
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Hi Mud,
You're right, that sounded proud.
I don't care what the correct definition of Jesus is. Through my childhood faith in him I learned about love. He was a very direct experience for me, a wonderful presence. Still can be, at times.
The reason I can't say, He is the Son of God and this is the truth and my salvation, is that it leaves other people out.
I am a universalist who believes that all human beings are saved, and that no loving god would "not-save" anyone. Anyone at all. To me, love is either loving in all possible ways, or it's not. If God is love and only love and not any other thing at all, including any text, then I believe in God.
I don't say it's not true that Jesus is the son of God, I say I don't know. If he was I think he had a lot of siblings, and still does...
You're likely one of 'em, Mud.
Hops
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no loving god would "not-save" anyone. Anyone at all. To me, love is either loving in all possible ways, or it's not. If God is love and only love and not any other thing at all, including any text, then I believe in God.
I'm with Hops on the Universalism. Also Unitarian- the Trinity doesn't make much sense to me except in a gnostic context.
Our external senses are notoriously fallible. Why should we assume our internal ones are any better?
yes Mud, we are human. However there is a place inside us where G_d is, I feel that, in fact I call it my G_d place because when I am in tune with it I make good decisions and act with love & compassion.
But ego is impossible to completely put to one side, even people who train in Buddhism for years find it hard!
Mine gets pricked here and there no matter how hard I try.
Although I would love to trust everyone
the first thing I found was how to trust myself CB.
I used to trust everyone blindly, then I trusted no one for a long time
Now it's more of a balance but also it doesn't matter as much, people's bad behaviour belongs to them now I don't see it as me being unloveable.
I've been here years and I hardly use the PMs, they are good for a personal message or conversation of course, but I can be quite a burden to otehrs if I get manic, I am very aware of that these days and don't use the phone or emails as much too. I have ten times the energy of everyone else and it can overwhelm people.
there's nothing I want or need from the one I thought i wanted to forgive.
that sounds like a good healing.
*
One of the things I feel we have to watch as Christians is 'love-bombing' people: showering them with affection to get them to do/ believe what we want. That's not healthy.
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Hops,
I didn't mean to say your statement in particular sounded prideful, only that generally, when placing ourselves on the 'goodness' scale, it is easy to find any number of examples that don't take much effort to exceed.
write,
the Trinity doesn't make much sense to me
As I've gotten older I've noticed some of the things that used to make the least sense to me have turned out to be the most profoundly true.
mud
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Gotcha, Mud...no offense (ever :)) taken.
I figure you get forgiveness practice putting up with this heathen UU!
Hops
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forgiveness practice putting up with anyone really!
I am not being entirely forgiving with my upstairs neighbours though right now.
Last night at 1 am they started hammering on the floor, I have spoken to them before, they really are noisy at the best of times but I ignore it in the day and evening, however I really need my sleep.
I have spoken to them twice before , she says it's her kids ( age 1 and 5 ), he was apologetic, they quieten down for a few weeks then start up again.
I went up at 1.30 when it didn't stop, she said I have to expect noise from small children in apartments! I said at 1.30 am? I was cross so I didn't say much but today I wrote her a note telling her the next time I will be speaking to the management and asking for my lease to be terminated. I have actually spoken to them before and they were talking about evicting her which I didn't want to precipitate, so I asked them to let me deal with it for a while, however last night she was unapologetic, rude and it was clear she thinks I am a pushover who won't do anything about it....
Grrrrrrr....... :x
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A NOT SO FINE TOOTH COMB ---- GOING OVER SOME OF POSTS IN THIS THREAD...
FROM POST BY MUD...
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2007, 01:09:48 PM .... I think the argument is made that Christ is referring to Christians when he uses the terms "brother" and "when they repent" because of the whole counsel of the bible. We are told later by Paul that Christians are to hold accountable other Christians but that we are not to judge the world. Elsewhere Christ tells us to bless, not curse, those who spitefully use us. We are told to turn the other cheek to our enemies, not rebuke them. If they thirst we are to give them a drink of water.
It seems clear to me that Christians have an obligation to forgive unconditionally, as Portia put it, those who they do not know to be Christians. Likewise they have an obligation to correct and exhort to righteousness those Christians who have sinned against them.
As His followers Christians are to do their best not to bring shame or disrepute to Christ. A non Christian's sin brings no disrepute to Christ, but a Christian's does. That is why we are to forgive the former and correct the latter.
YES IN THAT PASSAGE THE CONTEXT THE REFERENCE IS AS TO FELLOW CHRISTIANS....BUT SOME ASPECTS I THINK CAN BE STRETCHED TO A WIDER CONTEST AS I SUGGESTED THAT WHEN A NON CHRISTIAN COMMITS A CERTAIN KIND OF SIN THAT THE APPROBRIATE ACTION CAN BE REBUKE.... JESUS CERTAINLY POINTED OUT OTHERS HYPOCRISY IN WHAT I THINK WAS A KIND OF REBUKE....AND PERHAPS A LARGER PART OF WHY CRUCIFICTION OF JESUS WAS SOUGHT BY LEADERS AND ELDERS OF THE JEWS..... PERHAPS A FURTHER STUDY OF THE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED AS REBUKE IN LUKE MIGHT HELP AT SOME...THE POINT... there seems to be maybe an assumption made that non christians are not aware of their choice of evil and tnus should be automatically forgiven.... which i am not so sure is correct....surely tho as jesus said tis true if the case truely be..forgive them for they know not what they do.... but that to me is not the nature a type of sin jesus speaks of in luke 12... where that kind of sin has the consequences of being caste among unbelievers and the body being torn asunder...and i do not think believers there refers just to christians rather non believers in the golden rule....that allows self justification for knowing one is doing evil to another and thinks one can get away with it successfully for self aggrandizement ....something narcissists and pyschopaths seem to be into....but on different levels...
Michael, on another post, you mentioned reincarnation. How does that fit into Chrisitanity? Someone else mentioned they don't believe in Heaven. How can you believe in Jesus and God and not believe in heaven? I want to understand.
HI CAMPER,
i am not sure where above u ask about reincarnation and heaven if you are wondering if along with the believe in reincarnation
that that does away with a believe in heaven...
for me it does not but what i see biblically is that besides the kingdom of heaven there is a kingdom of god...
and a hell.... but as to hell i do not think the greek in the new testament supports that hell is a place of eternal damnation
but still it still can be hell and not the best place between incarnations...but it can serve to get the souls attention
about the consequences of their sin and the type of sin that gets damnation is to know evil and do evil...
[or as luke 12 puts it ..to be caste among the unbelievers ....]....
in luke 12 there are 3 modes of sin and of course being without sin...which gets one into the kingdom of god...
the kingdom of heaven is the messianic kingdom in between lifetimes ....
in terms of there being no eternal punishment... see tentmaker.org ...
in terms of reincarnation what might serve well is the edgar cayce material...
tho the material is not flawless...to me it is one of the best sources of modern times on many spiritual matters..
biblically of note might be the old testament book of zecheriah and pay close attention to the hight priest then a joshua...
not the joshua who brought the them into the promised land..
yet again the same joshua in terms of the later high priest joshua of the time of the rebuildingof the temple in zechariah
is a reincarnation of the joshua who brought god's chosen people into the promised land...
pays special attent to i think chapters 2 or 3 on joshua
and chapter 5 or 6 on joshua in zechariah...
where to me a deeper reading informs one that said joshua
would come for his last incarnation born of woman as the messiah....aka revelation 1st chapter FIRST BEGOTTEN OF THE DEAD
also in hebrews where some say the bible teaches no reincarnaton
such as where it says...it is appointed unto man once to die and then comes judgment...
that context i think is quite clearly not talking about physical death except in the sense of dying to the flesh and sin
by being convicted of the old sin nature of the adamic line and accepting the holy spirit...
also in hebrew where it says that jesus came only once...
the greek word also has the meaning not of just one time
but one final and last time....
also in matthew 11 or 12 where jesus says to his disciples if they are willing to accept it
that john the baptist was elijah...
i take as reincarnation...
SO REINCARNATION IS HOW I SEE ENVIRONMENT AND HERIDTARY ELEMENT DOVETAILING TOGETHER...
THERE REMAINS THE QUESTION OF IF REINCARNATION IS TRUE
WHY DOES THE BIBLE NOT MAKE IT CLEARER....
UNFORTUNATELY PRESENTLY I AM NOT AT LIBERTY TO DIVULGE THE SPECIFICS...
JUST KIDDING.... MAYBE LATER SOME THOUGHTS ON THAT :)
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Now that is a viewpoint that I have never heard...
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Overcomer
Hero Member
Posts: 718
Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #63 on: Today at 08:23:47 AM »
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Now that is a viewpoint that I have never heard...
Logged
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Kelly
"The Best Way Out is Through........"
SOME THOUGHTS ON THAT LAST THOUGHT ABOVE
TAINT NECESSARILY SO WHEN IT IS OUT OF THE FRYING PAN INTO THE FIRE.....
MEANING WHAT IS OFFERED AS A WAY OUT
MIGHT HAVE HIDDEN AGENDAS THAT FURTHER WEAKEN THE SOUL....
EVEN THO ONE SUPPOSES THAT ONE'S INTENTIONS ARE GOOD...
EVEN THEN IT CAN HIDE DANGEROUS ASPECTS OF A MISGUIDED EGO
WHERE ONE IS MORE DEEPLY TRAPPED THAN BEFORE PERHAPS
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Michael, that is an interesting viewpoint. I have heard about the speculation that John and Elijah are one in the same but scholars are still speculating on that one. Not sure I would call it "reincarnation".
As for Heaven, have you read the book of Revelation? If you have, is the bible the inspired Word of God for you? In Rev., John is on the island of Patmos, he receives a revelation from Jesus Christ. Jesus asks John to write down everthing he sees. In Chapter 4, it starts out...Then as I looked, I saw a door standing oen in HEAVEN. Then in Chapter 5 John sees a scroll in the right hand of the one who was sitting on the throne. Then we jump to Chapter 7 where the JW's understand that only 144,000 will get into heaven. This chapter is when the 6th seal was opened. this is where the seal of God gets placed on the foreheads of the 144,00. Verse 9-17 says, After this I saw a vast crowd, to great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and ganguage, standing in fromt of the throne and before the Lamb. Then v. 13, Then one of the 24 elders asked me, "who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you are the one who knows. Then he said to me, These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.
That is why they stand in front of God's Throne
and serve him day and night in his Temple and he who sits on the throne
will give them shelter, they will never again be hungry or thirsty;
they will never be scorched by the heat of the sun.
for the Lamb on the throne will be their Shepherd.
He will lead them to springs of life-giving water.
And God will wipe every tear from their eyes."
Now in Chapter 8, the seventh seal is broken. I am going to jump past where God's people ascended up to God to the part that would describe hell during the end times. Verse 7, The first angel blew his trumpet, and heail and fire mixed with blood were thrown down on the earth. One-third of the earth was set on fire....The second angel blew his trumpet and a great mountain of fire was thrown into the sea...Then the third angel blew his trumpet and a great star fell from the sky, burning like a torch....the name of the start was Bitterness. Then the fourth angel blew his trumpet, and one-third of the sun was struck, and one-third of the moon, and one-third of the stars, and they became dark.... then Ch. 12 V. 12 says Therefore, rewjoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time. chapter 16 lists God's wrath.Those that worshiped idols got horrible sores. Those that didn't repent were burned by a blast of heat, those that followed the devil (the kingdom of the throne of the best) were plunged into darkness.
I could go on and on but in the end...Chapter 20, v 15, And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death. You die in this world and are put in a grave. the grave then gives up its dead (second death). Verse 14. How does reincarnation fit into this? We only die once until God sends us to heaven or hell. Ch. 21, v 8 says, But coward, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars-their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. this is the second death
There is a hell! I would want to be sure that my name was in the Book of Life! I for one am not going to take a chance by listening to someone tell me there is no hell.
Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. Christianity is pure and simple....follow the bible. You can only follow the bible after you have salvation and receive the Holy Spirit. It is only with the Holy Spirit that you can understand the bible. You need the Holy Spirit!
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Michael, that is an interesting viewpoint. I have heard about the speculation that John and Elijah are one in the same but scholars are still speculating on that one. Not sure I would call it "reincarnation".
As for Heaven, have you read the book of Revelation? If you have, is the bible the inspired Word of God for you? In Rev., John is on the island of Patmos, he receives a revelation from Jesus Christ. Jesus asks John to write down everthing he sees. In Chapter 4, it starts out...Then as I looked, I saw a door standing oen in HEAVEN. Then in Chapter 5 John sees a scroll in the right hand of the one who was sitting on the throne. Then we jump to Chapter 7 where the JW's understand that only 144,000 will get into heaven. This chapter is when the 6th seal was opened. this is where the seal of God gets placed on the foreheads of the 144,00. Verse 9-17 says, After this I saw a vast crowd, to great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and ganguage, standing in fromt of the throne and before the Lamb. Then v. 13, Then one of the 24 elders asked me, "who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you are the one who knows. Then he said to me, These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.
That is why they stand in front of God's Throne
and serve him day and night in his Temple and he who sits on the throne
will give them shelter, they will never again be hungry or thirsty;
they will never be scorched by the heat of the sun.
for the Lamb on the throne will be their Shepherd.
He will lead them to springs of life-giving water.
And God will wipe every tear from their eyes."
Now in Chapter 8, the seventh seal is broken. I am going to jump past where God's people ascended up to God to the part that would describe hell during the end times. Verse 7, The first angel blew his trumpet, and heail and fire mixed with blood were thrown down on the earth. One-third of the earth was set on fire....The second angel blew his trumpet and a great mountain of fire was thrown into the sea...Then the third angel blew his trumpet and a great star fell from the sky, burning like a torch....the name of the start was Bitterness. Then the fourth angel blew his trumpet, and one-third of the sun was struck, and one-third of the moon, and one-third of the stars, and they became dark.... then Ch. 12 V. 12 says Therefore, rewjoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time. chapter 16 lists God's wrath.Those that worshiped idols got horrible sores. Those that didn't repent were burned by a blast of heat, those that followed the devil (the kingdom of the throne of the best) were plunged into darkness.
I could go on and on but in the end...Chapter 20, v 15, And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death. You die in this world and are put in a grave. the grave then gives up its dead (second death). Verse 14. How does reincarnation fit into this? We only die once until God sends us to heaven or hell. Ch. 21, v 8 says, But coward, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars-their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. this is the second death
There is a hell! I would want to be sure that my name was in the Book of Life! I for one am not going to take a chance by listening to someone tell me there is no hell.
Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. Christianity is pure and simple....follow the bible. You can only follow the bible after you have salvation and receive the Holy Spirit. It is only with the Holy Spirit that you can understand the bible. You need the Holy Spirit!
elsewhere on damnation not being eternal..i have mentioned the site tentmaker.org
and in terms of the book of revelation
i suggest this book
Commentary on the Revelation: A Commentary Based on a Study of Twenty-Four Psychic Discourses more books like this
by Edgar Cayce
later hopefully i will get more into detail on these matters here :) in this thread...
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hopefully i will get more into detail on these matters here in this thread...
or you could start a thread?
It is only with the Holy Spirit that you can understand the bible. You need the Holy Spirit!
no, I think we can interpret the Bible as with anything else variously, and what Christians call the holy spirit is G_d and present in more than just the Bible and more than just Christianity.
What religions need is forgiveness that life is not absolute.
As I've gotten older I've noticed some of the things that used to make the least sense to me have turned out to be the most profoundly true.
true to me
or true to you-
no guarantee
of 'this is true'....
I have believed for a long time now that we are each called variously because it is the balance of G_d. We are not meant to see just the church, the religion, the ritual, the symbols....but the spirit behind them.
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
if we believe in G_d then it all must be 'fulfil'.
Matthew 5 ends
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
perfect is 'teleios'- wanting nothing to be completed; heaven is 'ouranos' or Uranus....the limit of knowledge at that time.
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thanks for that translation, Write.
I like to think of "Be ye perfect" as "Be ye complete"
Hops