Forgiveness

[Portia]

About forgiving oneself...
this feels pertinent to something i have as an idea right now: the need, felt, to say to someone "I am sorry" almost without reference to whether they feel they were injured or not - that is the need to forgive me i think. Am I sorry to them? Yes, but only in the way that I understand their hurt. And if i do not understand their hurt, if I am assuming.....then the need to say sorry is all about me. Which is okay, as long as i realise that and as long as I have zero expectation regarding their response. ?

[poetprose]

just a quick post on this topic have not had time to read thread in depth.

I am working on forgiving myself for not caring for myself.  I believe when I can do this the Ns in my life are not an issue they just drift away like smoke.  By not forgiving myself I am tied to them and give them power over me.  I have no interest in reconcilling with an abuser but I do want to experience my own forgiveness

axa

Amen!!! Good for you:-)

[camper]

if your brother offends you, rebuke him AND WHEN HE REPENTS forgive him....
the rebuke is out of love in order to help bring the person to a positive change thru repentance...
even tho by discernment one knows that the other might successfully bring more troubles upon oneself for rebuking them...
that they might use what they know of the world to turn others against one for doing the right thing...
that they might even know some of our weaknesses and vulnerabilities better than we do ourselves
and to make one hesitate from doing the right thing they give off an aura of emotional intimidation
that you might not even fully recognize how it affects you for giving a more real and true emotional response to them
and tho they might  or might not believe that they are being more emotionally true than you are to them...
the narcissist would tend to think they are more emotionally true mostly and the
malignant narcissist or psychopath more likely knows they are using emotional blackmail and threats on the other more clearly.

now the context in luke is if it is someone who is a christian many want to say
and perhaps they are right in that context
but still i think there is a greater context
where brother is symbolic of someone who consciously [male being symbolic here of the active conscious mind in both sexes]
trying to take advantage of you in a way that is abusive to your spiritual integrity so as to rob you of your soul energy
in a way that will serve their own self aggrandizement.
one does not hate them for that seeing as they have lost their true understanding
of how such a kind of spiritual rebellion can be more damaging to their soul
but also that it can be dangerous to the energy of other souls who let themselves get caught up in their soul vampirish ways....
and the best response is rebuke even tho the other might try to crucify them on a cross:) hmmm am i christian
suffering for the sake of righteousness is part of the sermon on the mount and i think there is no way around
that for those who are true seekers...and no way around too suffering for the sake of others...but a need to be careful of not falling into a lessening of one's good energy by way of a false matyr complex....

Think about this though, if your brother offends you, rebuke him AND WHEN HE REPENTS forgive him....Do we really expect an "N" to repent?  They are always right.  As my Life Application Bible says:  To rebuke does not mean to point out every sin we see; it means to bring sin to a person's attention with the purpose of restoring him or her to God and to fellow humans.  When you feel you must rebuke another Christian for a sin, check your attitudes before you speak.  Do you love the person?  Are you willing to forgive?  Unless rebuke is tied to forgivesness, it will not help the sinning person.

Make sense?  We know that we are not supposed to point fingers in an accusing way.  That will put up a wall.  Bringing sin to a person's attention is tough.  But, it can be done in a loving way.

An unforgiving person should
be someone who is easily offended, highly invested in collecting
on debts owed to the self, and determined to assert his or her rights
in a principled effort to maintain self-respect.

Think how a normal(whatever that is!) person reacts to an offense.  We may ask for clarification over what may be a misunderstanding, then we may allow the other to disagree with us, then we let it go.  End of it.  The problem with an "N" is that they don't allow anyone to disagree with them.  My NH is a salesman and he will go on and on trying to "sell" me on his opinion and showing me how I need to agree with him.  In the end I outwardly agree, but inwardly, I am OK with him having a different opinion.  He's OK because he (thinks) was able to get me on board with his opinion and then the subject is dropped. 

I have forgiven my H.  It is not his fault (the core of it)  If I blame his father, it is not fair because his father's father died when he was 3 yo.  You can' blame someone for dying.  It is a nasty cycle to be stopped.  God could've put me in H's life to do that.  It is a battle but I will fight to the end.

[Hopalong]

Write, I'm grateful for this topic. What a thoughtful, deep discussion. Wow, people.

Mum: you have such spiritual clarity, I am always moved by what you write. There is so much love in it.

Michael: I am a heathen. I differ with Jesus on this point. For me the definition of forgiveness has evolved past the WHEN HE REPENTS, then forgive him/her part. I ain't waiting around to judge whether one has repented hurting me or not. Of course, when a genuine apology appears, that is sweet and extra and I'm glad of it, for my sake and theirs. Makes it a reciprocal healing. But if it's a cruel or dangerous person and contact must be ended, then my forgiving them is a private step/moment/release/claim of peacefulness...and has to do more with my own spiritual progress than with any dialogue or relating with or demand for amends from the other person.

I also respond this way because one reason I drifted away from Christianity was my sense that so many people were very concerned with the state of other people's character, and, for example, would be delighted to use their laparoscopic discernment to poke around in another's soul for evidence of whether another's repentance was sincere. It was as though there was an "Aha! You're STAINED!" lurking everywhere. It didn't help me think straight. Psychology and poetry and amorphous faith have though.

"Rebuke" works for me in the sense that it suggests: Tell them NO. Or, STOP. Or, this is not acceptable and if you do it again I will ____ (leave, call cops, divorce you, take away your allowance).

Portia, me too, about having no expectations about their response...

The other thing for me that feels directly linked (and perhaps synonymous with, really) to forgiveness is compassion. When I tune into that, things become so simple. I keep coming back to that. It's like a default setting.

It was difficult to "get it" about having compassion for myself. In recent years, I do much better at it. And I've found that when I love other people now, it feels "cleaner". Lighter, in a way. And I think that's because I finally turned the light around and beamed it into my own chest. Intentionally aimed love at my bruised heart.

love to all a-y'all,
Hops

[michael]

Write, I'm grateful for this topic. What a thoughtful, deep discussion. Wow, people.

Mum: you have such spiritual clarity, I am always moved by what you write. There is so much love in it.

Michael: I am a heathen. I differ with Jesus on this point. For me the definition of forgiveness has evolved past the WHEN HE REPENTS, then forgive him/her part. I ain't waiting around to judge whether one has repented hurting me or not. Of course, when a genuine apology appears, that is sweet and extra and I'm glad of it, for my sake and theirs. Makes it a reciprocal healing. But if it's a cruel or dangerous person and contact must be ended, then my forgiving them is a private step/moment/release/claim of peacefulness...and has to do more with my own spiritual progress than with any dialogue or relating with or demand for amends from the other person.

I also respond this way because one reason I drifted away from Christianity was my sense that so many people were very concerned with the state of other people's character, and, for example, would be delighted to use their laparoscopic discernment to poke around in another's soul for evidence of whether another's repentance was sincere. It was as though there was an "Aha! You're STAINED!" lurking everywhere. It didn't help me think straight. Psychology and poetry and amorphous faith have though.

"Rebuke" works for me in the sense that it suggests: Tell them NO. Or, STOP. Or, this is not acceptable and if you do it again I will ____ (leave, call cops, divorce you, take away your allowance).

Portia, me too, about having no expectations about their response...

The other thing for me that feels directly linked (and perhaps synonymous with, really) to forgiveness is compassion. When I tune into that, things become so simple. I keep coming back to that. It's like a default setting.

It was difficult to "get it" about having compassion for myself. In recent years, I do much better at it. And I've found that when I love other people now, it feels "cleaner". Lighter, in a way. And I think that's because I finally turned the light around and beamed it into my own chest. Intentionally aimed love at my bruised heart.

love to all a-y'all,
Hops

ACTUALLY I AM NOT SO SURE WHAT YOU SEEM TO THINK IS DIFFERENT FROM JESUS'S TAKE
UPON DEEPER STUDY OF JESUS WOULD BE THAT ALL THAT DIFFERENT
..i kind of think you have more of a bad aftertaste about jesus from what others said jesus
was than what he really was. ..

[teartracks]

Just a thought,,,

I know I've forgiven when all desire to seek revenge has dissipated.  I don't think genuinely forgiving another precludes pursuing that which is owed.  It simply changes the direction or method one uses if there is something to be reclaimed.  I mean that in the sense that nurturing unforgiveness can become a job in itself eating up time and energy that would be better spent focused on reclaiming that which has been taken and redirecting one's energy toward the higher calling of wholeness.

I'm not trying to define forgiveness here, only commenting on the nuisances of the process.

tt

[michael]

Hi Write

Right now I don't think forgiveness is an easy conscious choice. Maybe it's a conscious choice to want to forgive, to work for it, but the thing itself.....it's not like an intellectual decision? Forgiveness, for me, is a lack - a lack of wanting any revenge, apology or anything. Forgiveness is unconditional. i don't think it's linked to boundaries. I can forgive someone but still be wary of them and maintain my boundaries. Forgiveness seems to involve a lack of investment, a lack of caring about how the other person relates to you/oneself.

Hmmm maybe I'm talking here about something different than forgiveness? i don't know.

or.................what preceeds forgiveness? What needs to exist before forgiveness is necessary? A perceived injury i guess.

So..........I suppose it depends on what we see as injuries to ourselves? How personally we take things.

ramble ramble!

An unforgiving person should
be someone who is easily offended, highly invested in collecting
on debts owed to the self, and determined to assert his or her rights
in a principled effort to maintain self-respect.

sounds about right to me.

If one has to maintain self-respect through principled efforts to assert rights:

why does self-respect need maintaining in the first place? isn't self-respect something that is bedrock...it can be built, but maintained, once built?  maintained suggests it is false.

principled efforts....based on (external?) principle and not on self-respect?

assert rights....okay, sometimes with twerps with need to assert rights: "I was first in this queue" but otherwise, we own our rights, we have our rights, they are part of us - we don't need to be determined to assert them in order to bolster up some facade

anyway that's what I think I think right now, but it's open to change

hi portia,
i am not sure how to quote here but from your above post where u say
.....
If one has to maintain self-respect through principled efforts to assert rights:
why does self-respect need maintaining in the first place? isn't self-respect something that is bedrock...it can be built, but maintained, once built?  maintained suggests it is false.
principled efforts....based on (external?) principle and not on self-respect?
assert rights....okay, sometimes with twerps with need to assert rights: "I was first in this queue" but otherwise, we own our rights, we have our rights, they are part of us - we don't need to be determined to assert them in order to bolster up some facade.............
DOES THIS HELP..TRUE SELF RESPECT REQUIRES RESPECING THE DIVINE POTENTIAL IN OTHERS...WHICH BY THE WAY I THINK IS DIFFERENT FOR HUMAN SOULS THAN ANIMAL SOULS PROBABLY....not that we shouldnt respect animals as part of the divine plan....for more detail see edgar cayce materials ....AND PART OF CONCERN FOR OTHERS BAD BEHAVIOUR CAN BE BEST EXPRESSED FOR SOME OF THEIR SINS BY REBUKING THEM AND NOT FORGIVING THEM TILL THE REPENT AS IN LUKE 17:3 PERHAPS...IN THAT CONTEXT JESUS SAID WHEN ASKED HOW MANY TIMES, IT SAYS 7 TIMES IN THE SAME DAY..WHICH AT FIRST BOGGLED MY MIND TILL I GOT MORE FAMILIAR WITH WOMEN IN PMS....DO THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DONG ? ...ANYWAYS....
THERE REMAINS THE ASPECT IF ONE DISCERNS THAT THEIR REPENTANCE MIGHT NOT BE REALLY SINCERE BUT A TRICK...AND THEN A TRICK THEY ARE CONSCIOUSLY DOING OR IN A SENSE INNOCENTLY NOT AWARE OF THEIR OWN TRICKINESS IF THE LATER IS THE CASE I THINK WHAT ONE MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO IN SOME CASES TO BE ABLE TO SHOW THEM HOW WHAT THEY THINK IS SINCERE REPENTANCE IS A TRICK THAT IF ONE BUYS IT ..A PART OF THE SUBCONSCIOUS TRICKERY OF THE REPENTER WOULD PICK UP THAT YOUR INTEGRITY HAS BEEN COOPTED OUT SOME ....NOW SOMETIMES HOW I THINK THAT THE SUBCONSCIOUS DOES THIS IS THAT THE NARCISSIST OR OTHERS HAVE ATTRACTED NEGATIVE ENTITIES THAT ARE USING THE NARCISSIST OR OTHERS CONFUSED STATE TO WEAKEN THE SOUL OF OTHERS AND TRY TO ACCESS THE OTHERS SOULS ENERGIES IN A VAMPIRE KIND OF WAY...

[mudpuppy]

  I think the argument is made that Christ is referring to Christians when he uses the terms "brother" and "when they repent" because of the whole counsel of the bible. We are told later by Paul that Christians are to hold accountable other Christians but that we are not to judge the world. Elsewhere Christ tells us to bless, not curse, those who spitefully use us. We are told to turn the other cheek to our enemies, not rebuke them. If they thirst we are to give them a drink of water.
It seems clear to me that Christians have an obligation to forgive unconditionally, as Portia put it, those who they do not know to be Christians. Likewise they have an obligation to correct and exhort to righteousness those Christians who have sinned against them.
As His followers Christians are to do their best not to bring shame or disrepute to Christ. A non Christian's sin brings no disrepute to Christ, but a Christian's does. That is why we are to forgive the former and correct the latter.
As CB, tt and others have pointed out though, nowhere are we required to continue to subject ourselves to abuse as a condition of forgiveness. We may be called at certain times to subject ourselves to the abuse of others for their own good or the good of a third party, but we should not confuse that act of mercy with some self flagellating form of forgiveness. If we return to be abused in the vain hope we are somehow forgiving the offender we are commiting a form of self abuse.
And as others have pointed out our forgiveness is independent of the offender suffering the legal, moral or spiritual consequences of their offense. Our forgiveness doesn't keep criminals out of jail. There may be certain times that it might be wise to extend enough mercy to an offender that it might mitigate the consequences of their actions, but we should be very, very, very  careful that we are not feeding the beast that lurks in their heart rather than diminishing it.
 I think the point about standing on our rights primarily refers to a Christian's obligation to emulate Christ. He could very well have stood on His rights and not gone to the cross. But for our sakes he did not stand on His rights even though it cost Him a great deal. This is one of those challenging doctrines that test a Christian's faith. I struggle with it daily.

mud

[debkor]

Forgiveness,

I don't know if I forgave or not. 

When I was done I was done.  I felt nothing as if I never was married to this man.  I still feel that way.  When I talk about what took place it's now just a story no emotion. 
I do not forget the trials and hurdles that I had to overcome but I look at it as a good thing, not bad.

I think I would have to agree with Axa.   I had to forgive myself for harming myself by being in that situation and choosing to stay once I was able to recognize (abuse) but choose (denial).
So as far as my abuser I have no feelings towards him.   He can be what he wishes to be/stay/become.  I have no attachment to him in any way.


I had left my husband when my kids were very little so they did not get to experience *hard hit* by what their dad was or did.

I think I would have to have some personal feelings towards my ex in order to be able to say I forgive or not.
I have nothing. 
He did not make me who I am/was, I did.  And I am who I always was just got a little waysided for a bit.
Yes the forgiveness is for myself. This was a personal growth and healing for me.  Personal!!! he was not personal to me.
Took me a long time to figure that out. 


Love
Deb

[Portia]

Michael, thanks for addressing my post.

TRUE SELF RESPECT REQUIRES RESPECING THE DIVINE POTENTIAL IN OTHERS.

i think true self-respect requires respecting others as human beings. Not sure about divine potential, not really my bag.

WHICH AT FIRST BOGGLED MY MIND TILL I GOT MORE FAMILIAR WITH WOMEN IN PMS....DO THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DONG

this caught my eye Michael. Have we corresponded on PM I wonder?

Rebuking people for their sins.........tricky. Who decides what is a sin? Murder is a sin, but we licence it, so I'm not sure about blanket rules. It depends, a lot of the time.

Repentence is in the mind and heart of the repentor I think. We like to see repentence in law courts, but that's because we require something from the criminal (we are weak there imo). But true repentence is for the sinner, not the observer (unless the observer is omnipotent) I think.


Hops, yes, compassion. Firm compassion, if that makes sense! Compassion with boundaries? Compassion for self and others. Balance too.


Interesting thread Write!


Mud I'm going to study your reply later. Bet you wanted to know that


Deb: he was not personal to me I love this. So true, so full of meaning

[michael]

Michael, thanks for addressing my post.

TRUE SELF RESPECT REQUIRES RESPECING THE DIVINE POTENTIAL IN OTHERS.

i think true self-respect requires respecting others as human beings. Not sure about divine potential, not really my bag.

WHICH AT FIRST BOGGLED MY MIND TILL I GOT MORE FAMILIAR WITH WOMEN IN PMS....DO THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DONG

this caught my eye Michael. Have we corresponded on PM I wonder?

Rebuking people for their sins.........tricky. Who decides what is a sin? Murder is a sin, but we licence it, so I'm not sure about blanket rules. It depends, a lot of the time.

Repentence is in the mind and heart of the repentor I think. We like to see repentence in law courts, but that's because we require something from the criminal (we are weak there imo). But true repentence is for the sinner, not the observer (unless the observer is omnipotent) I think.


Hops, yes, compassion. Firm compassion, if that makes sense! Compassion with boundaries? Compassion for self and others. Balance too.


Interesting thread Write!


Mud I'm going to study your reply later. Bet you wanted to know that


Deb: he was not personal to me I love this. So true, so full of meaning

WE ALL CAN DISCERN SIN...
BEST DONE THO WHEN WE HAVE fully repented of our old sin nature and accepted the holy spirit
which as jesus says in last supper discourse teaches all things...
jesus speaks of  3 kinds of sin in luke 12
which essentially are i think
to know evil and do evil that can bring damnation to the soul but i do not think scriipture
really says that damnation is eternal...

sin number 2 is to know good but not to it
with such an attitude one cannot purge evil completely from one's soul

sin number 3 i am not sure i quite fully understand
but it is a lesser sin than sin number 2

now the sin that is surly rebukable i think might be number 1


perhaps this answer answered some of your other questions too
so sin is all in the attitude with which one does something
for what might be a sin for someone , might not be sin for another....

[michael]

Forgiveness,

I don't know if I forgave or not. 

When I was done I was done.  I felt nothing as if I never was married to this man.  I still feel that way.  When I talk about what took place it's now just a story no emotion. 
I do not forget the trials and hurdles that I had to overcome but I look at it as a good thing, not bad.

I think I would have to agree with Axa.   I had to forgive myself for harming myself by being in that situation and choosing to stay once I was able to recognize (abuse) but choose (denial).
So as far as my abuser I have no feelings towards him.   He can be what he wishes to be/stay/become.  I have no attachment to him in any way.


I had left my husband when my kids were very little so they did not get to experience *hard hit* by what their dad was or did.

I think I would have to have some personal feelings towards my ex in order to be able to say I forgive or not.
I have nothing. 
He did not make me who I am/was, I did.  And I am who I always was just got a little waysided for a bit.
Yes the forgiveness is for myself. This was a personal growth and healing for me.  Personal!!! he was not personal to me.
Took me a long time to figure that out. 


Love
Deb

BY THE SPIRIT i think we are all intimitately connected with all that is
by the grace of the salvation plan and our material bodies and our solar system...
we are so constituted into a sin nature where we come face to face with our past karma
to experience the intimate connection with the whole that was lost thru spiritual rebellion...
which probably happened before most took on material bodies
except for an occasional angel like me who chooses to come in
so as to bring more helpful
even tho sometimes i wonder what was i thinking...
a deep study of the book of romans speaks to this
but i dont think most christians miss some key points in romans

[debkor]

CB,

Not to get off the topic but I wanted to reply.

My kids *adult* have a forefield around them too!  I think that somewhere along the line all young adults do.
I believe if our children came from thee most healthy of families they still would have one.  Maybe we would not just notice it so much. I think that we are more aware because of what we have been through where we came from is why we do.

I do believe that everyone has skeletons in their closest.  We are not unique in problems.  Some have more or less.
I think your son can work it out.  I think he is trying too.  Maybe not always the way we hope they do but that is part of growing.  Live and learn.  Sometimes I have a very hard time with my kids making their choices because I know they are going to fall flat on their faces and they do.  Then other times I was the one who was wrong and they were right.  My thoughts of maybe a bad choice proved to be correct for them and the right choice.  And yes my kids project and get angry and blame others too.  Eventually they come around and own it.

I think your son will really work it out.  Your a role model for him and will always be there for him and he knows this.
It's what they count on even if they don't say it. 
I do think that if my kids had contact with their father they would not be feeling any different feelings they your (son) children do.  I know they would be.
And who really knows if my kids are not feeling backlash to a father who really never gave a damn about them.  Maybe they don't even know,yet.  Maybe they have worked it out or maybe it will come up later.  I really don't know.  I hope it has passed and it is not really buried just to come up later.  All we can do is hope and pray.


Love
Deb




 

[mudpuppy]

WHICH AT FIRST BOGGLED MY MIND TILL I GOT MORE FAMILIAR WITH WOMEN IN PMS....DO THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DONG

this caught my eye Michael. Have we corresponded on PM I wonder?

It caught my eye too. I thought it was in reference to Pre Menstrual Syndrome rather than Personal Message(S).

I figured there was gonna be whole lot of rebukin' and repentin' goin on round here.
Guess my reading comprehension isn't what it should be.

mud

[CB123]

The other thing that I wanted to throw into the discussion about forgiveness is that I am not sure that it has to have a particular feeling to go with it.  Since forgiveness is a choice, but feelings are not, it seems to me that forgiveness can't be dependent on feelings. 

It seems to me that if we refuse to take action on feelings that would demand revenge, then that would qualify as forgiveness--even if the feelings remain unchanged.

CB