Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: James73 on May 21, 2007, 06:47:06 AM
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Hey all, I saw a program on tv a few months back that discussed the issue of whether Antidepressants are good for us or not, it came to the conclusion that they weren't and I just wanted to see what everyone else thinks on the subject.
My view, partially effected by this tv prog, is that if we are depressed using drugs to make us happy does not solve the CAUSE of the depression rather the SYMPTOM of depression. You may say what's the difference as long you are happy? Well say someone is depressed there is a reason for this depression, they are in a situation which makes them unhappy. This has come about by others and environmental factors making this person unhappy combined with the fact that this person has allowed themselves to be in a situation for people to make them unhappy (obviously some situations are harder to dodge then others and some situations we dont know we're in until many years down the line, plus environmental circumstances are normally foisted upon us from birth).
So if we take antidepressants we become happy again, or we take some semblance of happiness that the drug companies define as a normal level of certain chemicals in the brain - seeing as none of us will perfectly fit the "normal" model it is forcing us to be happy against our will and against nature. So we've now taken the medicine and we are happy but our lives our still the same, we have not confronted the things that have been making us unhappy rather we have swept these issues under the carpet in a fog of chemical induced happiness. What I am really trying to get at is if we take anitdepressants how can we ever face our fears and become stronger people? How can we change our lives for the better if we are happy even though we should be unhappy? If someone is making our lives hell and we are on antidepressants because of it are we taking drugs to enable this person to abuse us more and more, are we taking drugs to supply the abuser with an endless Narcissistic supply if they are an N??
It seems to me some people in extreme dire straights will benefit in short term from antidepressants, to get them over any suicidal thoughts and the like, however for the majority of people who are depressed antidepressants will only seek to make us mindless zombies for people to abuse and will make us incapable of having the motivation to change our lives for the better because we think we are happy due to the drugs.
Not sure if this all makes sense but I feel drug companies are not to be trusted at all and doctors only prescribe what they are told to, sometimes from the drug companies themselves!
What do you all think?
James
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Well I will never touch another SSRI again, I was on them for 2 to 3 weeks, and went manic on them...... my pdoc said that i am one of the ones who can not take them, ( duh no brainer),
Besides I am dealing with the causes, not the symptoms, I do believe that I am better , and it is because of all the hard work I am doing, evaluating my attitudes, changing the ones that are not healthy for growth, working each day with an attitude of gratitude
I am stubborn to not allow misery to rob me of a good quality of life........... I've seen it to much, this is one area where I can be thankful to know my father in law............ he is what happens when you allow pitty and woe is me to be the captain of the ship
I honestly believe that if people who suffer from depression, like myself can get ahold and really grasp this thought -"WE ONLY DO THIS TRIP ONCE"...........and really believe it!!, they will get motivated to change, and in that change they will see that the drugs are only the tip of the ice burg and that the real work has to be done inside......... the anti depressants can not do that, all they are designed to treat the symptoms of the depression NEVER the cause................... I have decided to die "living" not die "dieing"...... make sense?
So James good post and i totally agree with you!
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James
I think I pretty much agree. Have you read Prozac Diary? I read it and felt as though the writer had resigned themselves to a life on meds. Maybe that works for them (maybe they've changed since?).
Maybe it's up to each person to decide for themselves just how much the pain hurts at any given time.
Education about how these things work and how we can each work towards managing our mental health - that might help. In the UK it seems to me as though we expect the medical profession to cure everything. And mental health is only now just beginning to be publicly discussed without shame.
That's another thing. When you're depressed (or grieving as CB says), you might feel SHAME because you're supposed to be HAPPY! and that makes you more likely to say yes to the magic pills that will enable you to fit in and pursue that elusive happiness factor........while being even more depressed or anxious inside.
Great. I feel angry and fed up today. Brilliant! I'm human :D
Humour works for me James 8)
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I argued against them because I was not depressed but my doc gave me lexapro To remove some of my stress. Well, they made me gain weight but I do have glimmers of REAL happiness and optimism.
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Spot on CB.
Another area of medication management, used a fair bit i think here, is that in elderly peoples homes. We've had numerous homes in the news for physical abuse too.
The shame thing, I read it in Viktor Frankl and it was one of those things that made instant perfect sense to me. Being depressed or unhappy is seen as socially unacceptable, instead of being part of being human. And let's face it, there are enough things in life to be unhappy about!
More weeping in the streets called for! More hugs for all, more real connections.
Instead of have a nice/good day, maybe we could say: have a real day!
Hi Kelly
How much of your progress would you attribute to the lexapro - maybe that's a difficult chicken/egg question. Do you have breaks in taking it?
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that is a good question. I have been on it for 6 months now and I am cutting back to every other day because of the weight gain. I have been in a bad way during this time but have just recently felt optimistic. I have been climbing out of this pit for so long and maybe the meds helped? I do not know, I only know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel for me in several arenas.
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Thanks kelly. It sounds as though you're taking the control too, rather than the attitude of the meds controlling you, which seems important to me (speaking as one who doesn't know what she's talking about, never taken this type of med, just witnessed it).
I'm glad about that light :D
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Hey guys, yeh I like the notion about fitting in socially, ie be happy or you'll make me feel depressed syndrome, Portia love the attitude and Im right there with you, if I wanna be a moody grumpy turd for a while I will be and if people cant deal with that then tough! :P I also feel these meds in general can be used to help people out of a hole as long as they are also willing to work on themselves too as Portia says, if drugs are needed then effort needs to be made so that they wont be needed again much like OC has done - good for you OC! :D I did try some anti's a while back and much like miss Poet they didn't agree with me, I felt awful and got total insomnia, I was lucky to get an hours sleep a night and it took me ages to get back to rights again, it was funny when I began to deal with my internal feelings I looked depressed on the outside which is perfectly normal but my doc was quick to point that out to me as if it was socially unacceptable or as though it was an afront to them and others that I was depressed, thinking back I should have said well if you was me at the moment you'd be sodding depressed too! :lol: Ah doctor's... don't listen, don't think and don't care, well most of em anyway :)
CB youre definitely right about over prescription, doc's arent there to deal with mental probs unless theyre a quack and if someones in their office looking depressed and saying they're depressed they are very willing to deal out the drugs, I've even heard about some doc's having quotas and the like to push some drugs more than others!
Portia youre spot on with the humour thang, its a great depression kicker! :D
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I was put on Lexapro also.. took it for quite a while and did help me with anxiety and daily upsets. Things that would drive me nuts in the past wouldn't even make a dent.
It did cause weight gain and did have (excuse me for saying) sexual side effects. This was after I questioned my therapist if it did have these little bonuses. She told me it was a "clean form of Celexa" with little or no side effects. She took it herself and wasn't bothered by it all. That wasn't me at all.
It doesn't upset me now, thinking back that I took it, as it did really help me through some very rough patches with my Nmother. I have been drug free for over a year now.
BUT - please be warned when coming off the drug Lexapro. My therapist started weaning me off of it very slowly and correctly. That didn't stop what happened next.
After finishing the last doses I started having "brain shocks" caused by what is clinically termed discontinuation syndrome .. a feeling of having my head being yanked back, extremely vivid dreams (more like nightmares), and trouble focusing or concentrating. These lasted for a three month period, diminishing over that timeframe very slowly.
Am really not sure I would go back on Lexapro again. I still take Alazopram. It’s a generic form of the tranquilizer Xanex. ... but only on an as-need basis.
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http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2007/05/18/autism_misdiagnosis/ (http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2007/05/18/autism_misdiagnosis/)
There's a very interesting discussion of Rx in this Salon article from a few days back...the best part is the Letters section, which works almost like a forum. To read them, go to the last page of the article and scroll to the bottom. Once the Letters come up, it helps to select Oldest First.
Hops
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I have only had time to skim through the responses on this thread, but I did want to make some comments. In my case, which was situational depression, not chronic depression, I found the anti-depressants and also the anti-psychotic drugs that I took for a short time, to be a Godsend. I was only on the anti-psychotic drugs for a few months, but they restored my appetite which had vanished and caused me to go to 110 lbs. The inability to eat had made me so weak that functioning at all was difficult.
The anti-depressants (I took Lexapro, after having a very bad experience with Paxil), did not make me foggy or glazed over or happy. They helped to calm my shaky nerves, to relieve some of the obsessive thoughts and anxiety. I took the Lexapro for about 7 months until I felt I was over the worst of my depression, then weaned myself off. I was under the care of a psychiatrist at that time, which I highly recommend for anyone who is taking these kinds of meds.
Different people will have very different reactions to the meds and the dosage. You need to be monitored by a professional who is aware of the side effects, reactions, and potential problems. They can make adjustments or changes as they deem necessary, or determine that you do not need them at all.
Brigid
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I went through four years of treatment on a variety of antidepressants. At first they seemed like a miracle. I felt "normal" for the first time in years. But after 6 six months or so the positive effect started to fade out, and the response from the Dr was to add more chemicals to the mix in order to find the right "balance". After 4 years and about 50 different chemical cocktails I made the decision on my own to get off the chemicals completely. It has been 9 years and I wouldn't touch any of that stuff with a 10 foot pole.
IMO these chemicals might work to "kick start" someone out of a chronic depression but something else is needed to effect a long term cure. For me the real cure has been strict attention to diet, exercise, and other health matters, along with exploration of psychological issues related to my past in an N-ish household.
My brother took a different path and has been taking antidepressants for 14 years. He's 80 pounds overweight, has no energy, barely functions in an entry level job. Yet he swears the antidepressants are worthwhile. I remember a time he wasn't so lethargic, so I have a hard time believing he has been "cured" by these chemicals.
I read a new theory recently about depression and the neuro chemicals in the brain which fits well with my own experience. These researchers believe the problem in depression isn't so much in the chemicals themselves (e.g. serotonin, dopamine, e.t.c..)but the way emotions are regulated by the individual. These emotions are expressed physically, but, not ultimately caused by, a certain balance of chemicals. Unlike the non-depressed, people prone to depression don't bounce back from the depressing experiences which everybody experiences everyday. And it might be a learned response. Antidepressant treatment might temporarily kick the depressed into a different chemical balance and different emotional state, but problems in the regulatory system are not addressed. So the learned responses and depressed states tend to come back.
So did some of us learn to become chronically depressed in our N-ish environments? It sure seems to fit with my experience. I don't believe I was depressed in my early years. But by the time I made a physical escape from my FOO in my late teens/early twenties I was a basket case. It certainly didn't help that I was "self medicating" with alcohol, tobacco, massive amounts of caffeine and so on. It wasn't until I gave up on these substances that things started to really improve.
Peter Breggin has written a couple of interesting books on the subject. One is titled "Talking Back to Prozac" which is his response to the the popular "Listening to Prozac". It's seems to me a good idea to investigate both sides of the issue before committing to a long term course of chemical treatment.
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I was going to ask my T about getting some... you guys are scaring me a bit! I was hoping to use something short-term and not get hooked, or gain a bunch of weight. Do you feel its better to use an AntiD over say a drink at night?
Hurt
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Hey Hurt, sorry this thread is concerning you although its best to get some facts and ideas about antidepressants before taking the plunge. If you are looking to take them it may be a case of trial and error before you find the one that suits you. I wouldn't recommend a drink to ease depression as Alcohol is a depressant and the high will be replaced by depression the following day. Is there any reason you need antidepressants at night? Are you having trouble sleeping? There are pills for that too although Ive never taken them, there's also some good herbal remedies plus a thing called 5-Htp which is great for sleep I took it for a year or so when I was having trouble sleeping some years back, good stuff, although again id research it rather than take my word for it as I could be a raving nutter, which im not, but hey you can never be too careful :? :D
You also say you want to take them short term although the ones prescribed to me, and Ive heard many are like this, are to be taken for a minimum of 6 months (it may be 3 but I think its 6) and then you have to come off them slowly, so it could be like a 9 or 12 month course minimum, does anyone else know more about this?
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I was taking Paxil and became more 'anxious' so I switched to Effexor.
I also take Lyrica for neurological pain, plus it is for GAD and fibromyalgia.
Sometimes we can be on a prescription drug for a while and it becomes part of the daily ritual, like brushing one's teeth, so if there is a physical change, aka side effect, one might not suspect the pills one has been taking for 1-2 years.
***I realized my vision was blurring. I was more tired, (although I was low in potassiium) a bit confused, and have swelling of hands and feet.--feet part can be normal problem, but not hands.
I checked Lyrica side effects*** so now the question is--do I stop all the crap and go back to the pain?
If I stop Effexor as well, will I be who i used to be or just a depressed version of who i now am? The Effexor (any anti-depressant also helped alleviate the pain.)
Perhaps a bullet would help?
xx
Izzy
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hi Izz,
I take gabapentin (Neurontin) for nerve pain and it helps a lot.
I did notice mild double vision but it's not too bad (I only take it at night anyway).
I don't know how it compares with Lyrica?
Hops
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>>Not sure if this all makes sense but I feel drug companies are not to be trusted at all and doctors only prescribe what they are told to, sometimes from the drug companies themselves!
What do you all think?<<<<
I forgot to mention that, how do we know that we are getting acurate information on the side effects of these meds? , the drug companies want to sell their drug - it is a buisness, so is it not plausable to asume that they don't tell us all of the negative side effects,lest it effect their sales
maybe they just tell us what we need to hear to keep buying it
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Hi James,
My family has a huge history of depression. I also had thyroid disease, which really sent me plunging. I was depressed throughout high school and college - sometimes severely. As an adult, I at last had a doctor who recognized that I needed an AD. I was beyond anxious and hardly enjoying anything in my life - including my two adorable children. I have been on AD for 4 years and have stabilized. I still have some moods, but overall, I feel like a human being. I am not sure I need them as much as before. I take a low dose.l But I don't want to go back. I may try to go off sometime, but I am happy where I am now.
Also, my N mother is on ADs. She improved with them too, I believe. At least she is somewhat more pleasant. Unfortunately, her doctor felt she just needed the medication and not therapy... alas... shall I forever be the only person who realizes she is a malignant N???????
Love, Beth
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Hurt,
Do you feel its better to use an AntiD over say a drink at night?
James is correct when he says that alcohol is a depressant, so it is not the answer to depression. Actually, the result of using alcohol will not be anything close to taking AD's. The AD's work on neuro-transmitters in the brain (or some such thing like that), to theoretically improve your mood. Alcohol will just work in the short term and have no long term effects. Ad's need to build up in your system and will actually have very little effect at all for at least 2 weeks.
There is no guarantee that you will get "hooked" on them, or gain weight. I would talk to a psych (not your T unless he or she is an MD), and get more information.
Brigid
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You definately need to shop about I think when drugs are concerned but there seems to be a lot of drugs out there that can cause more harm than good, there was a thing in the UK about prosac causing suicide in teenagers, the bbc I think dug deeper and found that this was a known risk but the managers pushed ahead anyway as the drug company's shareholders needed their dividends, what would they do without them... :roll: :?
(((HURT)))) Do some googling on the type of AD you may take and see what everyone has to say about it, google groups search is also a good idea, you will find negative stuff about all drugs though but you will find that some drugs get a bigger thumbs down than others. You'd look at a cars performance etc before buying it so its a good idea to do the same for drugs, all have draw backs but some are worse than others.
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Hey Ami, failure I think is in the eye of the beholder and only an uncaring N would really look at someone and call them a loser or a failure, who are they to judge anyone!? No one knows what anyone has been through let alone some cowardly idiot N who is too scared to look in the mirror . You are no failure Ami and I think you know this as I did when I also looked at my life just some months ago and thought my lord what a loser I am. This issue of failure is something to be dealt with day by day. As we find ourselves and detach the N influences we become stronger more motivated and our minds become sharp once more. This process has taken me a surprisingly short time since I learnt about N's, challenged hard truths about myself and others and started rebuilding myself brick by brick and day by day, setting boundaries expunging and mentally rewiring negative thought processes etc etc, all I might add with the help of this board and the wonderful people and information found on it.
I have never thought about connecting failure with unhappiness before although the two are obviously intrinsicly linked. To be unhappy definately doesnt mean to be a failure, in fact I feel to be unhappy and to accept that you are unhappy is a powerful and important step in the fight against the real losers/failures and that is the N's as they are the biggest spiritual losers of them all. So to be unhappy and to accept and know you are unhappy is in fact a great success :D
I hope you can find your way to happiness soon Ami
Big hugs
James
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Let me tell you my view and experience on this topic.
Recently, about 2 weeks ago, I took my last dose of Lexapro. I had been on it for about 4 months or more (can't recall)...Lexapro helped stabilize what I believed were mood swings, however, it also steadily caused me to be depressed and feel very isolated inside in my mind.
Since getting off it, I've been having the brain shocks, zaps, shudders. I know what MOTHERLESS means exactly! It's like every 10 min, someone takes your glasses on your face and gives them a fast shake, so that everything looks really distorted and you feel dizzy. As far as the feeling of having my head yanked back...I've had that too, but no pain connected with it...it just stops me in my tracks till I can see straight again.
Antidepressants are a better alternative for some people rather than living with insane behavior that hurts themselves and others. For some, antidepressants can lower unfounded inhibitions, allowing them to live fuller lives, without paranoia and reasoning themselves out of every good thing that tries to come along.
I have done a lot of research on myself and the roots of my struggles. My therapist and I came to the conclusion that my insights are wise and that I will benefit from having a psychologist to talk to, rather than meds. Personally, I believe the meds did what they were meant to do in my brain. They got me back to a stable position in life. After my last failed friendship, I had PTSD which was mistakenly diagnosed as Bipolar and Depression.
As time has gone on, I've come to see that my issues have been situational, rather than biological. It's OK TO DO THE RESEARCH, friends! Learn about yourself, your past, your triggers, and even about other people and why they do what they do.
I'm glad I did this. I've recently decided not to give up on my dream of being a counselor. Today I signed up for Spanish and Math to work toward my Associates Degree and will be transferring at some point as the Lord leads my life in that direction.
~Laura
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I've recently decided not to give up on my dream
Bravo, RM!
:)
Hops
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You know, I went to doc who prescribes natural hormone replacement and every time I was there I would complain about mom and the last time she told me I had huge negative energy and seemed to always be stressed. She was the one who finally said maybe the Lexapro Might take the edge off. She also had been treating me for my excess weight and said the lap band may be a good thing considering I am nearing diabetes etc. She didnt think I would qualify but with the recent gain I do.
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Hi Laura where have you been? Have not seen many posts by you lately!
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Ami: What I have come to is that I continue to feel the freedom from my mom-however I think I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder and almost dare my mom or anyone else to cross me. I was controlled and manipulated so long that I have my guard up-no one messes with me. I hope to be less abrasive as I walk through my recovery.
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Overcomer,
I've been gradually posting again. Was without computer/phone for about 2 weeks, so I couldn't really spend time posting anything. Other than that, I'm busy selling from my concessions trailer daily. Getting ready to head back to school to pursue my dream now.
~Laura
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Well good to see you! I have been missing several people who really give me good advise. I think it is wonderful that wor are going back to school!
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Overcomer,
Were you including me as someone who gave you good advice in the past? If so, what sort of advice did I give? lol
~Laura
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Well lets just call it a sympathetic ear. It is good to get things off your chest and it is nice when you and others give opinions-but so many have not been posting! I have enjoyed my new friend Ami-She seems to have similar issues with an n mom-only she is skinny and I am chubby!
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Hey Ami, Im glad you get good insight from my posts, I just say what I feel really, which I couldn't and was afraid to do initially on this board and still am sometimes :? :) although I must remind myself to speak my truth as I have learnt from a post a few weeks ago. Regarding emotional independence from my mother, this is not really an issue with me as Im quite sure both my parents are not N's and I can only imagine what it must be like to have a parent as an N, anyone who has one and is seeking to free themselves from their grasp leaves me in awe sometimes at the great strength of character needed, it is very inspirational to here about it on this board. I have however let in and been subjected to intense and hurtful N abuse by various types of N's, I was unfortunately too naive and weak to recognise the fact that I don't need some people as friends, its better to be alone. From very young i realise now I have had N's pretending to be my friend but who've really just manipulated and abused me mentally and physically, overall I count at least 6 to 7 N's that have played significant parts in my life from around the age of 8 or 9. My life up until a few months ago has been a kind of spinning emotional roller-coaster, always thinking I must deserve this treatment and never sticking up for myself as I should. Still I have to also say that some of these N's, if not all, have made me very strong, or potentially so anyway, I was a compressed seed, then a sapling, Im up to a small yet stocky apple tree at the moment (anyone got a fruit basket? :D ), then hopefully onto a sturdy willow, an oak and then finally god wiling a Redwood :P And as I keep saying this board has been totally key to my awakening :D
Love ya
James
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Dear Kelly and James,
Thank you. You gave me Cyberspace Hugs! Love to you Both Ami
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meds never had too much affect on me...
i guess they didnt know i was an alien :)
but that was the family belief
meds were the best cure...
mom the n in my book got meds librium and such i think from family doctor
and not from a psychiatrist..
after all she had issues coz of the grief caused her by others...:)
siblings too favor the med route..
tho one just recently seems to being swayed
by the power of what is generally callled cognitive therapy
by better self understanding to actually change
she said ..either brain chemistry and maybe brain structure too..
geez louise that has what i beens sayin for years...
one med did seem to have a rather positive effect on me some years ago
celerex spelling? celarex? anyways...
once i sense the mind shift
i felt aware enuf of what it did mentally that i could pretty much recreate it on my own
by thought process.
but then i often interpret my dreams as i am dreaming ..
i think that is considered an aspect of lucid dreaming...
i forget why i stopped the celerex...
stopped the therapy?
side effects...
?
one of the most negative was red devils...
a bit of withdrawal gettin off of them
ah tech name was secobarb....
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oh oh addendum to my previous post...
cognitive therapy is term given by its creator i think something beck..
and my sibling said that
he did some research to show that cogntive therapy could effect
brain changes similar to meds...
postive changes
and without the negative side effects i assume :)
except for added responsiblity
for having removed one's old excuses...
ah who took most effectivly took away our excuses for sin
..it is in the bible ...jesus:) did..
but in its place he gave us the holy spirit that can answer all things...
last supper discourse in gospel of john:)
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well I think I am going to ween Myself off them. I have gained weight and it messes with sex! And I think I will be ok-but the key to me is to do it gradually.
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well I think I am going to ween Myself off them. I have gained weight and it messes with sex! And I think I will be ok-but the key to me is to do it gradually.
Good for you. When I was taking them, I gained about 40 pounds. As soon as I cut down the dose, the weight gain stopped. When I quit completely the weight came off without any problem. Haven't had any weight problems since. I tapered off the dose over about a year before I finally stopped.
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Hi OC, TJR...
I wonder if my weight gain is also influenced by the ADs. I hadn't thought of it because when I first go on them, after years off, I always lose weight.
Do you think that turns around the other way after the body gets accustomed?
Hops
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Could be-I know whet i was on Celexa I kept the weight off but I was at a different age and time-now I got fat! I think your brain does some tricky things!
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Hi OC, TJR...
I wonder if my weight gain is also influenced by the ADs. I hadn't thought of it because when I first go on them, after years off, I always lose weight.
Do you think that turns around the other way after the body gets accustomed?
Hops
As I remember my weight was stable for the first months of treatment. The weight gain came later. Hard to figure what exactly was going on. During the first months when the AD's seemed to really work I might have been more active than usual, compared to the previous depression. But later I seemed to gain weight no matter what. Then after I dropped the AD's I lost weight without any conscious change in diet or exercise.
One of the strange effects of quitting the AD's was feeling much less depressed. At least for me there seems to be something about the change itself which makes the difference. Taking them cured my depression for awhile, then quitting did the same again.
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Black and white thinking
Please tell innocent, naive, 68 year old me, what that means?
Is it bad or good?
Is it N or non-N?
thanks
Izzy
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Izzy,
Black and white thinking is the tendency to see things in absolutes. People are either good or bad. No shades of gray.
This kind of thinking isnt necessarity N or nonN. I think a lot of nonN's are likely to do this--that's how they get duped for so long. If their N partner does anything good,their black and white thinking categorizes them as good. They have to filter out the bad stuff in order maintain their "all or nothing thinking".
Is it bad or good to think this way? I think it's a case of arrested development. Young teens are black and white thinkers, just because that's where they are developmentally. But they usually grow out of it--unless they DON'T! Then I think that black and white thinking becames shackles around your feet. Every issue is only right, or only wrong. People are either enemies or friends. It's a hard way to make sense of the world.
CB
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Thank you CB
So I'm pickiing up the B&W thinking can turn out to be more detrimental than leaving an allowance in between?
Izzy
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I think black and white thinking is a disaster.
Not so when a saber-toothed tiger is running up the driveway toward your toddler, or you're in a war.
But otherwise, it's too unimaginative and leaves no room for compassion, imo.
(Compassion not being the equivalent of accepting abuse; compassion being just a more creative and spacious way to consider what someone is, broken or whole or something in between.)
we can wind up stronger at the broken places,
Hops