Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Confounded on May 22, 2007, 12:05:59 AM
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Copied from another thread:
In reading on the subject I have noted that N has a strong hereditary component. Thus, I am reluctant to focus on the environment too any great degree. This has been borne out by my personal experience.
After receiving the diagnosis of "N tendencies" for my H, and having continued problems with his periodic fits of insistence that he is always right (huh?) and anger, I called his mother, looking for explanations and suggestions. She advised, bottom line, that his father was the same way. She said that she "ignored" his dad, who "had some very strong ideas," and "once he got going there was no point in talking to him."
I am very interested in any article that can explain what the internal experience is like for the N. The way that thought process works, I cannot figure out.
I find myself thinking, "Well, if I'm wrong, and somebody corrects me, then they actually help me. They leave me better than they found me. However, if someone functioning as an N refuses to see or admit when he's wrong, then he's wrong twice. He's wrong once in the issue at hand, and again in his refusal to accept that he is mistaken. Why don't they feel embarrassed? It's like the Emperor's new clothes. He's naked for God's sake!"
I think it's pretty sad. Sometimes he seems to be posing (e.g., saying that he's always right) simply to aggravate me, and at other times, he seems to actually believe it. I don't think that he talks to himself internally. Maybe everybody has an internal dialog, although I have the impression that he may not (hmmm... is there something to this?). Anyway, if he did have an internal dialog, I think it might sound like this at times, "It's okay. I'm not wrong. She's wrong. I'm not wrong. She needs to stop saying that I'm wrong. I'm NOT wrong. I"M NOT WRONG! GRRRR!!!" But then at other times, he can now joke about it, saying, "Oh sure. I'm never wrong. Never. (smile)" It seems like he goes into a delusional state at times, and at other times he is somehow aware that he can become delusional.
In the end, since he hardly pays any attention to anything that is not directly related to his getting his needs met, he knows very little about many things that go on in his immediate vicinity. Thus, he often has little information with which to operate, and he makes numerous mistakes. We wants none of these mentioned. If I tell him that he didn't do something as we had discussed previously, he gets furious.
What ends up happening feels very odd. I start thinking that maybe I'm an N because I'm the one finding fault. But then I think, "I'm just trying to get him to act normal and remember what we discuss." I suppose that if I worry that I might be an N, when I become annoyed by his chronic inability to focus on anything outside his own priorities, then I'm probably not an N. But this talk of needing affirmation (I am more motivated by kudos than $), wanting to do things right (not pretend, actually do it right), and thinking that lots of other people can't cut it (I prefer to deal with other professionals, people who think and speak quickly), sounds like me. Except that I'm willing to do the work to get the kudos, and if I screw up I definitely want to know about it. So I just keep coming back the difference between genuine self-confidence and some kind of defensive false confidence, unable to be real, for fear of some horrible outcome. I don't know what that horrible outcome could be. Seems like it would be worse to look like an idiot insisting that one is right, when clearly has no clue.
If anybody knows, or has a source that explains, what the inner thoughts are in the N state of mind, I would really appreciate more info on this.
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Hi Confounded,
I'd like to ask something blunt. I know your H drives you crazy. I sympathize...it feels awful to be constantly irritated and frustrated over such poor chemistry and lack of flow between you.
My question, though, is could you ask yourself how you benefit by trying to be right?
It seems like a draining exhausting struggle you are mired in. It's unwinnable.
And it must be misery to feel this tension all the time.
Can either of you just extend grace? I don't know what that means in specific...just ... grace.
I apologize if this isn't helpful. I know it may not be.
Hops
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Hops, thanks for asking. I'm not into being "right" per se. I'm just into not having things go wrong. I try to anticipate and avoid problems. This has worked very well for me in the business world. No rework. Get it right the first time and get on to the next thing.
If I screw up, I make some kind of self-deprecating remark, "You make an excellent point. I seem to have lost track of the primary objective here. Back to what we were doing." But if H screws up, his reaction to the news is not even close to reasonable. He just sort of freaks out sometimes, but not always. About two weeks ago I became aware that sometimes when he doesn't freak out he IS freaking out internally. But he's not showing his rage. He's trying to keep it bottled up, and evidently that's why he finally blows sky-high over something insignificant. The pressure can't be contained anymore. It's soooo time consuming, and a complete waste of effort. I'm just trying to make progress. But I constantly have to take time out for his tantrums, that is when I'm not explaining something to him for the umpteenth time.
I try very hard to just let it go, say nothing, assume that he knows what he's doing, not bother with the details... You tell me...
Yesterday (Sunday) I came downstairs and noticed that somebody had moved several bags of bedding that I had placed by the front door, per my step-daughter's request, for her college apartment. I asked about that and learned that my H had killed a spider, stepping on it, after it had gotten in through the front door. When he had stepped on it, it had burst open releasing hundreds of minuscule baby spiders. I asked how he had cleaned it up and he said "Paper towels." I said nothing, although I wondered if a vacuum would have done a more thorough job. I winced slightly at the thought of lots of tiny spiders crawling around the area where bags of bedding were awaiting transport, as well as the thought of them in my home. But I told myself that it would be okay, and I let the matter drop.
My step-daughter came and got the bags. After they were removed, I looked at the carpet and I could see several tiny spiders crawling away. They were really small, brown, and very hard to see. I said that we needed the vacuum. H said he'd go get it (that was nice). We got all the vacuum's pieces, and he vacuumed the rug, raking the rug attachment across the edge of the foyer hardwood where it meets the living room carpet. I hoped that the rug attachment wouldn't break the edge off the hardwood. I wondered why the loud noise every time it hit the wood didn't bother him (i.e., make him worry that he might wreck the edge of his foyer floor - read waste $). I said nothing.
He indicated that we was finished. I told him that the spiders had probably made it onto the hardwood as well, and we could never see them on that brown wood, so we needed to vacuum the wood too. I didn't say "Duh." Not even in my tone. I was very nice about it. I used to be less nice when I pointed out things that I thought were "Duh." obvious. He looked irritated about the delay in the resumption of his leisure activities. But he began to vacuum the wood, using the rug attachment, which sits too high off of a wood floor to clean up much of anything. I told him that wasn't working (again, no "Duh"). I said that we needed to attach the floor attachment. He became angry, threw the wand/rug attachment on the floor (thankfully, it did not damage the floor when he threw it down). He yelled that he wasn't going to do it then, he had been drinking his coffee! This all happened at about noon, when he had been drinking coffee for three hours.
I said that I would do the rest of the vacuuming. The thought of dozens of tiny spiders crawling away through the house across the brown hardwood floor, where one could never see them, was just disgusting. I had to do something. So I vacuumed the wooden floor, and seethed. His anger, and his failure to do the right thing, coupled with his lame attempts to garner lip-service approval of his pathetic efforts make me want to puke.
The entire event was revolting. He let his own daughter drive back to school with a car full of spiders, because he either a) didn't care, or b) didn't have the presence of mind to realize that you need a vacuum to clean up a mess like that. Then he got mad at me for helping him see which parts of our own vacuum to use. I know that he has vacuumed the wood floors before using the right attachment. Sometimes I wonder if he's losing his marbles. His dad had Alzheimer's, which got very bad in his mid-eighties. H is in his early 50's. Seems too young for that. He seems to just reach the end of his short little rope, when it comes to being told anything that he needs to do, and he can't think logically anymore.
Without an organic cause such as Alzheimer's, IMO, none of that should have happened. A grown man with an MBA, should be able to handle the management of a simple project like cleaning up a somewhat dangerous mess, and as the man of the house, I would hope that he would feel compelled to make it right, so nobody gets hurt. I know that I could not have blown off doing it right, to say nothing of allowing my daughter, or anybody else's daughter, for that matter, to end up with several bags full of bedding and baby spiders.
I constantly strive to avoid his N rage. I try to say nothing, even if I disagree. We have had horrible hours-long arguments when I tried to convince him that his opinion wasn't the only way of looking at someting, or get him to agree to do something differently for the sake of others' feeling, or to avoid stressing people out. I have finally listened to his mother, and I try to just ignore anything that doesn't require a response. I try not to care if he says things that are intended to aggravate me or others. I try not to listen to his incessant complaining. I try to see the good in him. But the complaining, the negativity, the lack of attention to the details of his own life, are all soooo boring. Sometimes I wonder if I'm going to die of boredom or stress.
I would just like to know, once and for all, what is going on inside his head? What does it sound like in there?
He wants adulation, for effort that is average, if that. I just want to work as a team. Two heads are better than one. I love to do great work, as part of a team. H wants to be praised for doing great work, without having done much of anything. He resents doing real work so much that if he does do something great, and I praise him, his bitterness about having spent hours working seem to outweigh the kudos that he has earned legitimately.
Does anybody know where I can read about what goes on inside such a mind? Does this all make sense to him somehow, or does nothing have to make sense? Is this a logic-free zone?
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Hi Confounded
from the perspective that men are different to women (and not addressing the N aspect at all)
A grown man with an MBA, should be able to handle the management of a simple project like cleaning up a somewhat dangerous mess, and as the man of the house, I would hope that he would feel compelled to make it right, so nobody gets hurt.
I lived through your description of the spider episode (I'm pretty much an arachnaphobe). No way would I get a man - any man! - to deal with it.
This is my theory, I test it with my H sometimes. I say "see that lump of black on the <pale-ish green> carpet?" and he cannot see it. I say "there" and point and nope, he doesn't see it. He's not concerned.
When men go to the fridge for something specific, they can't find it. "Where's the cheese?" they say. And it's in front of them, but they can't see it.
I think it's basic biology, back to the caves. It's important for us to keep the cave clean and to know where everything is, with the kids to look after, the food to keep away from other animals etc.
Women actually have a wider span of vision than men. We can take more in about our surroundings. We can hear better too, knowing which baby is crying out of several.
Men are great at focus and concentration. They can pinpoint an antelope they want to kill and go for it. They can be aware of danger from a predator, but everything else is unimportant at that moment. What they can't do is sweep a scene and find the relevant (but pretty unimportant) information, or piece of cheese, quickly. Their life doesn't depend on it.
But they can enter any room and know within seconds where the best fire exits are.
I think it's horses for courses. Maybe your H doesn't see a bunch of tiny spiders as that big a threat. I wouldn't ask mine to do that job because he simply wouldn't do it to my standard. I'm a neat freak about insects, i know how best to use the vacuum (as you described so well!) but my H, it's not his skill at all. He's a professional and uses his brain on strategic and tactical stuff. He likes detail too, but only when there's a clear and useful objective to be achieved.
Oh and he doesn't like me stranding over him instructing him on how to do a job. It drives him bananas and i can understand why: I'm almost criticizing his performance and letting him know, in emotional terms, that he's not measuring up. He wants to be valued for what he's good at and not asked to do tasks which I'd be better at. And he's not an N at all, just a man!
Hope something in there makes some sense. Took me years to figure this thing out!
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Confounded, this is my H to a "t". I have a hard time not becoming short with him when he lacks common sense. I have learned to use phrases like: that's what you think?, you would think that, you are absolutely right,.....these are a good way to end the discussion and walk away. I am sick of trying to argue my point and I don't care anymore. N's are know-it-alls and it is useless trying to tell them otherwise. I just tried to explain to H how he sets himself up to a higher standard by acting like a know-it-all. I recently told him what a hypocrite he is. I later told him that he should try getting through a day without doling out advice. He gives advice to anyone he can and preaches. By doing this he is putting himself on a platform by which he is expected to at least practice what he preaches. He magnifies his hypocrises because people see what he knows in his head, and then they see he can't live up to what he preaches. If he is going to preach, then he better practice it! He actually understood what I was saying. He understood how he sets himself up. I explained that he needs to listen and ask questions rather than start preaching. He understood!
there is a book, "Why He does That" by Lundy. She attempts to explain what they are thinking. It was that book that clued me into my H.
You really can't make sense out of the "N" because you didn't grow up in their environment. They can't even understand themselves! My H is clueless to his crap. He thinks he is normal. they surround themselves with others like them so of course they think they are normal.
My H needs affirmation. I struggle so badly with this. As a stay-at-home mom, I work my butt off all day doing, doing, doing, for my family. I don't need anyone telling me, every step of the way, what a great job I am doing. I don't expect it. I just do it. So, when it comes to telling my H he did a great job emptying out the dishwasher, after I had done it twice today already, or thank him for emptying the garbage, after I had done it all week and he finally did it, I JUST CAN'T. As part of this family, shouldn't I expect something from him every now and then? Why does he need a parade every time he does something? Our T asked that I do it. My H isn't 2 years old for pete's sake! But that is how I am to treat him. So last nght my H insisted on cleaning up the dinner table. I was helping and he told me to let him do it. So I told him he does a great job cleaning up and he can do it. Now, I wanted to gag. 2 minutes later he smiled and hugged me and told me he loved me. All that just because I told him he does a great job. I can't deal with this craziness! We were in church on Sunday and I needed advil so I asked if he had some in his car. He said he would run and get some for me. I said, "really, you really will?" So he ran and came back and as he was coming, I was going (the lady next to us had to get up to let him in so I used that to get me out). then he hands me a cup of water...I mumbled that I wasn't going to drink that during the sermon...and I left. I am funny about people around me seeing what is going on...and we typically can't bring drinks and food in the sanctuary. Later that day, he told me how angry he was because he had been so excited to run and get me the advil. and he was going to bring me water so I wouldn't have to leave. He had done a good thing and all I did was complain. He was right(ouch). He needed affirmation...what a good boy, that was so nice of you, good job...and I didn't give it to him. He let me know how I failed. I listened carefully and said nothing.
In the past, I had made sure I didn't let him do things because of the response he expects and how I fail to deliver. It is easier to do things myself. I am running myself ragged trying to do things by myself but it is so much easier not having to deal with his neediness. He is pretty much free to just have fun and not worry about things around the house. I am enabling him. He has a pretty easy life. I put most things on my shoulders so he gets his way. I have learned to control things around him to keep him happy. I give up myself. the world revolves around him. I was in the middle of a TV show and he sat down and asked if I was watching it because he wanted to watch a movie. You can guess, I said I wasn't watching and he could turn on his movie.
So, confounded, I am right there with you. I am adjusting. Sometimes it is fun to push a button and watch him dance. 8) I is amazing how easy it is, and I get a thrill from it. Try it, it will lighten things up and give you a sense of control.
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Hi Confounded
from the perspective that men are different to women (and not addressing the N aspect at all)
A grown man with an MBA, should be able to handle the management of a simple project like cleaning up a somewhat dangerous mess, and as the man of the house, I would hope that he would feel compelled to make it right, so nobody gets hurt.
I lived through your description of the spider episode (I'm pretty much an arachnaphobe). No way would I get a man - any man! - to deal with it.
This is my theory, I test it with my H sometimes. I say "see that lump of black on the <pale-ish green> carpet?" and he cannot see it. I say "there" and point and nope, he doesn't see it. He's not concerned.
When men go to the fridge for something specific, they can't find it. "Where's the cheese?" they say. And it's in front of them, but they can't see it.
I think it's basic biology, back to the caves. It's important for us to keep the cave clean and to know where everything is, with the kids to look after, the food to keep away from other animals etc.
Women actually have a wider span of vision than men. We can take more in about our surroundings. We can hear better too, knowing which baby is crying out of several.
Men are great at focus and concentration. They can pinpoint an antelope they want to kill and go for it. They can be aware of danger from a predator, but everything else is unimportant at that moment. What they can't do is sweep a scene and find the relevant (but pretty unimportant) information, or piece of cheese, quickly. Their life doesn't depend on it.
But they can enter any room and know within seconds where the best fire exits are.
I think it's horses for courses. Maybe your H doesn't see a bunch of tiny spiders as that big a threat. I wouldn't ask mine to do that job because he simply wouldn't do it to my standard. I'm a neat freak about insects, i know how best to use the vacuum (as you described so well!) but my H, it's not his skill at all. He's a professional and uses his brain on strategic and tactical stuff. He likes detail too, but only when there's a clear and useful objective to be achieved.
Oh and he doesn't like me stranding over him instructing him on how to do a job. It drives him bananas and i can understand why: I'm almost criticizing his performance and letting him know, in emotional terms, that he's not measuring up. He wants to be valued for what he's good at and not asked to do tasks which I'd be better at. And he's not an N at all, just a man!
Hope something in there makes some sense. Took me years to figure this thing out!
SEVERAL THOUGHTS HERE ABOUT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN..
one is a book suggestion THE MEN WE NEVER KNEW by daphne rose kingma ...
i might get back to book later here..
but first now about the more aware of visual details that women tend to have...
what can happen then it is harder for women to choose the most important focus...
but they tend to [without realizing it usually] focus on their own emotional bias as if that is the most important detail...
men might realize to some degree that women are not likely to be honest about their own emotional bias
and that women can often outmaneuver them by being more intuitive too of a wider range of energy...
so kind of what i think kingma says in the book...men give up
but feel like they are being asked as if they should join in this emotional playing field as a joy
but tend not to want to coz it can be very hard to get a woman to recognize her own emotional biases....
once again women tend to believe that their focus of what is key and important is superior to men
when it is not necessarily as true as they would like to believe
and in the meantime some key point of truer consistency of needs
might be better perceived by men who tend to be in general more logiical and consistent...
THUS THE BATTLE OF THE SEXES MAYBE :)
AND FINALLY THIS...
MICHAEL DOES THE TRULY WISE THING
DUCKS AND RUNS :p
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A KIND OF FOLLOW UP TO MY PREVIOUS EMAIL..I THINK..
why narcissistic or maybe more psychopathic men are so irritating to women
that they in some form pick up on doubts and flaws in womens assumptions about their own true goodness
that is a bit too self serving
..in fact maybe it is a key way they play women...
but the way a narcissistic man would play a woman might well be quite different than the way a malignant narcissist aka to me psychopath ...would play a woman..
too...i think women tend more towards the narcissistic end of the spectrum
and men towards the psychopathic end
sigh hopefully most by now have some sense of the spectrum between narciissist and psychopath..
mixing to your saidist and antisocial of course too :)
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So, confounded, I am right there with you. I am adjusting. Sometimes it is fun to push a button and watch him dance. I is amazing how easy it is, and I get a thrill from it. Try it, it will lighten things up and give you a sense of control.
Yuck. That sounds terrible, Camper. Are you utilizing this tactic on a short term basis, or is this how you are going to cope long term?
I am all for regaining control of my own life, but it feels kind of creepy to get a kick out of controllilng someone else. Can you explain what you're thinking?
CB
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Hi Confounded and Camper:
I think contempt makes healing impossible.
Camper, you can resent him but if you don't mind me being blunt (I'm doing that a bunch lately but please know I mean well) you need to take responsibility for saying No, or Yes, or whatever. (As with the TV show.) As to praising him, perhaps the T means just, show appreciation and gratitude without keeping score. Then, he'll pick up the habit. I think your silencing yourself, suppressing your own identity and fullness of life, is creating resentment. IOW, your not taking your own feelings and needs seriously, is coming out in your irritation with him. And some of that isn't his problem...you'll have to fight to see yourself with new respect. Once you respect your own autonomy and interest and value as a person, then you'll be more likely to find things to respect in him.
But as to letting him be a child at home instead of a partner? Nah. Just quit doing more than is fair. So here's where you DO keep score (only it's not "score", it's an objective record). Make a list for him of all what you want him to do without being asked. If he doesn't do it, shove over his mess and leave it there and just keep doing your share. Or go on strike. Stop doing his laundry and ... well, whatever makes sense in your household. Or go away for a week. A little shock therapy done without blowing up might do more to help you both than all the arguing you can pack into a week.
Sometimes, men who are good at heart are grateful for a wakeup call. It's astonishing how many can overlook the practical tedium and exhausting contributions of a woman who works at home, but they can. But if we treat them like another child, that doesn't help.
Confounded:
Same general thought...I think contempt is corrosive. It does no good to watch him under a microscope and think or express scathing thoughts about his stupidity and lack of logic. It's like an acid drip. He is not you. He does not have your brain. He does not approach tasks in the precise, efficient, logical way you do. He is a different person. What were the qualities he had in the beginning that you appreciated about him? Are they still there, in his nature?
The way he is, is the reality of him and all the criticism in the world will not change that. So, you've either got to make room for his way of being, or not. You could work out compromises, but I think the scripts you're describing sound like just seething, poking, hissing, sticking, kinds of things.
But since your man also sounds abusive...I dunno. I think if I were criticized that much I might become more irrational and explosive than I might naturally be. I don't know if that's true for him though. It is his responsibility, his rage behavior. It might be simply that chemistry is a truth that gets overlooked in courtship mode. And in some unhappy circumstances, we realize too late that we do not have a liveable chemistry with our partner.
It's a sad truth but which is worse? Establishing a new, serene life, or continuing to live with someone you loathe?
Hops
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So, confounded, I am right there with you. I am adjusting. Sometimes it is fun to push a button and watch him dance. I is amazing how easy it is, and I get a thrill from it. Try it, it will lighten things up and give you a sense of control.
Yuck. That sounds terrible, Camper. Are you utilizing this tactic on a short term basis, or is this how you are going to cope long term?
I am all for regaining control of my own life, but it feels kind of creepy to get a kick out of controllilng someone else. Can you explain what you're thinking?
CB
I have learned how my H is going to react sometimes. So, I respond a certain way to watch his reaction(usually OVER-reaction) He has a habit of not letting me finish what I am saying and he goes off..over-reacting and it is really silly. I let him go on and on and when he is done, I tell him the rest. He usually sees how silly he was in his over-reacting to what I didn't even finish telling him. It is his fault for not listening so I let him do what he does. Long term, I am not sure what is going to happen. I have been living with him for 13 years and I have been getting by, keeping peace most of the time. It is a game I have gotten use to. I tell him what I think he wants to hear and he's happy. He hates me watching TV and he despises certain shows, so, to see his reaction, I will turn on one of those "evil" shows and see what happens. Sad, isn't it. The sense of control comes from watching him dance. Honestly, I am not smart enough to manipulate in order to control much more than this.
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Camper,
I think I understand what you are saying. I had done the same myself. I did things to aggravate the hell out of my ex.. To watch him dance only I was dancing along with him getting pleasure out of almost felt like a payback. It was a payback. It was a watch me do what I want and watch you hate it. The faces he made the annoyance I caused made me feel good. Made me feel like I still had some power. But really why bother. Why did I want to annoy him?I wanted a reaction. I wanted him like you say, dance. Only I was dancing too. But I do understand what you mean.
You are very P***ed off and this is your way of feeling you have some control and this is how you are getting your anger out by making him maybe angry, disgusted? Almost making him walk in your shoes of things you cannot control (he can't control over you). Something you (enjoy) not something you have to do like dishes, laundry, garbage, chores that you really don't want to do alone but have to get done. So when he helps with those and looks for Aren't I good, look what I've done, didn't I do good, to a yes dear you did and then receive hugs and kisses would not be a pay back because it's not enjoyable it's part of living you really don't feel control but the TV shows you do because it's yours, you enjoy them, he does not and you feel control because you are doing something that you like and you just enjoy the hec out of him knowing that this is one thing he cannot control so you make sure he knows it.
Is this what you mean?
As far as the T my T use to say Deb when he does something good give him a pat on the back. I know what the T meant but ew! I could not, I would not but my marriage was over I wanted out. I didn't want to work anything out with my H except which was the closest route to the door.
Love
Deb
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You got it Deb. I have a hard time explaining myself sometimes. I do have to learn to give my H a pat on the back. It is so hard though.
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Hi Hops:
Contempt - aka disgust - can be the only available source of sufficient emotional energy to both motivate and make it possible for a person to escape an untenable, and yes, contemptible, set of circumstances.
We were given the full range of emotions for a reason. Emotions are tools and warning signals. No emotion in itself is 'bad'. It's only the misuse of an emotion, or the becoming 'addicted' to it, that is 'bad'.
You mean well in your comments to camper and confounded, and it's obvious, but for people who are desperate to escape an untenable situation, condemning them for feeling contemptuous of [or disgusted by] their situation [and/or the people who contribute to it] may well deprive them of the only force in their lives that is strong enough to make escape possible.
You yourself, I think, left your last husband after he gratuitously abused your child. Was there no disgust involved? Did you truly feel no contempt for the man? That's very hard to believe.
Clinging to contempt after it's served its purpose... now, that's another story.
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Thank you all for your assistance. This is all very stressful. The anger, the black and white thinking (or what might pass for "thinking"), and our mutual feelings of disappointment and bewilderment, all weigh heavily on me.
Camper and Ami, thank you very much for the references to authors Lundy and Vaknin. I do hope that I can learn my way out of this mess.
Portia, your description of of men's field of vision, smaller than women's, is very interesting. I actually took a course in Physiological Psychology right before I started my MBA, and that was not covered. I need to look into this further. I am aware of gender differences in this area, but have not made a study of it, as you have. Do you have a favorite book on the topic?
Hops, I am aware that H doesn't have my mind. In his more lucid moments, he is aware of it as well. We're both MBA's. I'm in Mensa. He's pretty sure the couldn't get in. I consistently kill on standardized tests. In his case... "Not so much." (as Jon Stewart says, which amuses me for some reason).
Please be aware that my criticism of H is only in counterattack mode. The criticism is mainly coming from him to me. In spite of all evidence to the contrary, H likes to talk endlessly about how he has all the answers, and everything would be fine if everybody would just do what he says all the time. I have stopped reacting to this stuff. It's just stupid baiting. I hate it. It's boring and a waste of time. As is evidently common for N's, he did not do this early on in our relationship. It started only after we were engaged, which happened fast. Once we were engaged, I was reluctant to back out. That seemed like a very flaky thing to do, agree to marry somebody and then change my mind. When he's not in a bad mood, I'm glad we went forward together. But when he's in a bad mood. I'm sorry that I didn't heed the first warnings, and cut it off. According to my middle sister's T, my mom is an N (I do not doubt that this is true). She stresses me out. Now he stresses me out. I hate it all.
As for the contempt, it waxes and wanes. Right now, we are working on the end of TWO huge projects, remodeling our one acre yard and the interior of our home. We're at about 90% completion on both. H complains endlessly about all the work. I have tried to get through to him that I appreciate all of his hard work, but his endless negative complaining about how none of this needs to be done (and I am unreasonable, ridiculous, whatever) is so unbearable that it pretty much cancels out my appreciation. It is as if he had done nothing, because he is so consistently awful about it. He acts like a child, who goes to work just as a child goes to school and then comes home and wants to play for the rest of the day. I did not select this home. His prior (dead) wife did. It was in a state of extreme disrepair when I got here. I became VERY depressed early on in our relationship. Now that I have dug my way out of that hole, having been given some understanding of what is going on here, I am working to make things look okay around here. We are making progress. But I HATE working with him. I like working with doers, not whiners.
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Dear Confounded,
I'm so sorry about the atmosphere....it sounds joyless.
I hope the work pays off, and I am certain your work here will.
Thanks for the fuller explanation of why you feel so frustrated.
Have you thought of any new outlets that might release some of the steam?
(I've never been through a renovation with anyone, but I hear that can REALLY tax a relationship too.)
Sending best wishes,
Hops
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For what its worth I did everything........ all the dancing, the secret smile when he got caught in his own web but all I was doing was hurting myself. I had to stay as long as i did in the madness to see clearly what I was dealing with, to know in the depths of my heart that what I was dealing with was completely outside my control. No amount of loving, adulation, self sacrifice, understanding was ever going to make it ok. The choice for me was to stay and be destroyed or leave with all the pain and risk living.
I see now how I got so caught up in the dance. I was so angry and maybe I had to get to the place where my anger was unbearable for me to contain. I understand in normal relationships there is give and take, there are compromises but when you are dealing with an adult who expects the attention and care of a two year old you are fighting a battle you cannot win.
Someone said to me once when you are involved with someone who does not care about you they have all the power. Nothing you do will change the situation, they have nothing to loose. I think when they have you dancing around them they are high from the supply, they love it, it is better than any love to them. You are operating from two incompatable systems, parrell universes.
When you are ready all you can do is stop the dance and save yourself. I sit here and feel such relief that I do not have that madness in my life any longer and also see the incredible cost it was to myself.
Axa
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It takes two to tango. When two consenting adults are together. One is enabling the other. But when you are a little baby and love is denied to you, that is different. That is why loneliness from an N mother is much harder than from an N husband. Or so I think. If I am wrong, I beg you for your forgiveness, probably I am being selfish, but I am trying to understand why, I have been alone for 17 years and do not miss my N husband at all, and when see an N man I run as fast as I can. But with my mother I get very despertate, like wives with N husbands. I do not understand why.
Hope that you do not take me wrong, I am putting my heart in here, no intention to offend anybody.
Love to you all.
God bless you.
Lupita
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CONFOUNDED HAD BROUGHT UP IN ANOTHER THREAD....
Confounded
Newbie
Posts: 20
Re: proposed new theory on understanding narcissists
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2007, 01:38:12 AM »
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In reading on the subject I have noted that N has a strong hereditary component. Thus, I am reluctant to focus on the environment too any great degree. This has been borne out by my personal experience.
After receiving the diagnosis of "N tendencies" for my H, and having continued problems with his periodic fits of insistence that he is always right (huh?) and anger, I called his mother, looking for explanations and suggestions. She advised, bottom line, that his father was the same way. She said that she "ignored" his dad, who "had some very strong ideas," and "once he got going there was no point in talking to him."
I am very interested in any article that can explain what the internal experience is like for the N. The way that thought process works, I cannot figure out.
I find myself thinking, "Well, if I'm wrong, and somebody corrects me, then they actually help me. They leave me better than they found me. However, if someone functioning as an N refuses to see or admit when he's wrong, then he's wrong twice. He's wrong once in the issue at hand, and again in his refusal to accept that he is mistaken. Why don't they feel embarrassed? It's like the Emperor's new clothes. He's naked for God's sake!"
I think it's pretty sad. Sometimes he seems to be posing (e.g., saying that he's always right) simply to aggravate me, and at other times, he seems to actually believe it. I don't think that he talks to himself internally. Maybe everybody has an internal dialog, although I have the impression that he may not (hmmm... is there something to this?). Anyway, if he did have an internal dialog, I think it might sound like this at times, "It's okay. I'm not wrong. She's wrong. I'm not wrong. She needs to stop saying that I'm wrong. I'm NOT wrong. I"M NOT WRONG! GRRRR!!!" But then at other times, he can now joke about it, saying, "Oh sure. I'm never wrong. Never. (smile)" It seems like he goes into a delusional state at times, and at other times he is somehow aware that he can become delusional.
In the end, since he hardly pays any attention to anything that is not directly related to his getting his needs met, he knows very little about many things that go on in his immediate vicinity. Thus, he often has little information with which to operate, and he makes numerous mistakes. We wants none of these mentioned. If I tell him that he didn't do something as we had discussed previously, he gets furious.
What ends up happening feels very odd. I start thinking that maybe I'm an N because I'm the one finding fault. But then I think, "I'm just trying to get him to act normal and remember what we discuss." I suppose that if I worry that I might be an N, when I become annoyed by his chronic inability to focus on anything outside his own priorities, then I'm probably not an N. But this talk of needing affirmation (I am more motivated by kudos than $), wanting to do things right (not pretend, actually do it right), and thinking that lots of other people can't cut it (I prefer to deal with other professionals, people who think and speak quickly), sounds like me. Except that I'm willing to do the work to get the kudos, and if I screw up I definitely want to know about it. So I just keep coming back the difference between genuine self-confidence and some kind of defensive false confidence, unable to be real, for fear of some horrible outcome. I don't know what that horrible outcome could be. Seems like it would be worse to look like an idiot insisting that one is right, when clearly has no clue.
If anybody knows, or has a source that explains, what the inner thoughts are in the N state of mind, I would really
SOME THINGS IN THAT OTHER THREAD SUCH AS
GIVING THE SOURCE OF A NEW THEORY OF NARCISSISM
BELOW
To help clarify to some, the proposed theory comes from an abstract for something that is online
and to view the full text, i think one has to join some way.
It is not my theory 
Abstract
Psychological Inquiry
2001, Vol. 12, No. 4, Pages 177-196
(doi:10.1207/S15327965PLI1204_1)
Unraveling the Paradoxes of Narcissism: A Dynamic Self-Regulatory Processing Model
Carolyn C. Morf
Behavioral Science Research Branch, National Institute of Mental Health
Frederick Rhodewalt
Department of Psychology, University of Utah
here is the url
http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15327965PLI1204_
AND AN ABSTRACT OF THE ARTICLE ..BELOW
We propose a dynamic self-regulatory processing model of narcissism and review supporting evidence. The model casts narcissism in terms of motivated self-construction, in that the narcissist's self is shaped by the dynamic interaction of cognitive and affective intrapersonal processes and interpersonal self-regulatory strategies that are played out in the social arena. A grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept appears to underlie the chronic goal of obtaining continuous external self-affirmation. Because narcissists are insensitive to others' concerns and social constraints and view others as inferior, their self-regulatory efforts often are counterproductive and ultimately prevent the positive feedback that they seek-thus undermining the self they are trying to create and maintain. We draw connections between this model and other processing models in personality and employ these models to further elucidate the construct of narcissism. Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.
SO THAT BEING DONE NOW...
THE QUESTION HAVE ANY ACCESSED THE ARTICLE
AS TAKING FROM THE ABOVE ABSTRACT IT SAYS
Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.
OF SPECIAL NOTE THAT IS SPEAKS OF UNDERSTANDING BETTER THE NARCSISSIST'S INTERNAL SUBJECTIVE LOGIC ....
THE BUGGER IS THAT TO ACCESS THE ARTICLE ... IT COSTS...
HAS ANYONE MAYBE LOOKED AT THE ARTICLE
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The link above yielded this:
Error
Requested article does not exist on the system.
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The link above yielded this:
Error
Requested article does not exist on the system.
SORRY BOUT THAT CONFOUNDED,
IT SEEMS SOME WAY THE LAST 2 THINGS IN THE LINK GOT DELETED
THIS LINK SHOULD WORK
http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15327965PLI1204_1
_1 HAD GOTTEN LOST :(
I FOUND IT BY GOOGLIN
Unraveling the Paradoxes of Narcissism
ONCE AGAIN THE CONNECTION OF THE ARTICLE WITH THIS THREAD...
Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.
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thanks cb for the info on the article about paradoxical stuff of narcissists...
i think my mum was a narcissist but
everyone else is mum about recognizing mum as such :)
one sis idiolizes mom now but didnt used to
and sees dad as more the source of family disfunction...
for me tho most family disfunction is better laid at mom's feet
my response was the withdraw from the world
tho full blown to point of personality disorder methinks
what is sometimes termed "secret schizoid"
unfortunately sometimes people who be agitated with my style
take some of my self revelations and run a bit too far with them methinks...
u quote the articles as saying..
the disorder is generally thought to be the result of some form of failure in empathic responding by the mother..
oops duh i thought it said emphatic ...un in the words of rosanna anna danna..
nevermind :)
but about failure of empathic responding of the mother
the way i peg much of narcissism thru the enneagram pesonality system
is as enneagram type 3
where often the nurturing figureot the individual..generally the mother..
is seen as favoring the child
which seems to contradict the concept of lacking empathic response from the mother..
which tho i think is explained by the reversal that often happen when a child
does not live up to the high expectations of a parent that favored the child...
tho it might still seem like being empathic to the child
the child comes to feel that to be continue being favored
they have to succeed in ways the mother expects...
etc etc etc :)
and all those paradoxical mixed message of humans...
by the by
i was an adopted chimpanzee and
am not human....:P
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Sorry, Michael,
I have way too much on my plate to respond to nonsense posts.
I thought the article was interesting, and thought that there was some interest among some other posters that would justify spending the time to provide a synopsis. But I don't get your syntax, nor your nonsensical comments, so I'll bow out of the interchange at this point.
CB
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((((((((((Michael))))))))))
I hear you, and I understood every word. Forgive me if you've explained this and I missed it; are you still in close contact with your mother? It sounds as though she was very enmeshing/engulfing. And demanding, oh yes. And critical, oh yes.
I hope very much that you have escaped...
if so, mum's the word... ;-)
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((((((((((Michael))))))))))
I hear you, and I understood every word. Forgive me if you've explained this and I missed it; are you still in close contact with your mother? It sounds as though she was very enmeshing/engulfing. And demanding, oh yes. And critical, oh yes.
I hope very much that you have escaped...
if so, mum's the word... ;-)
well since she has passed away... i suspect not
but god knows what she still might be trying to do from the other side...
actually i suspect more the lingering influence upon me and i suspect my other siblings
who are not that patient in listening to my case that the main toxic influence was mom as a narcissist..
are the negative eneties who try to attach themselves to the situation created by the narcissist..even after the narcissist passes
and maybe was able to gain a better perspective on the other side of themselves...
i am not one for mediums to find out :)
as mediums i see as psychics who use questionable astral entties to gather somewhat dubious info from the other side..
but other kinds of psychics might be able to give me a mom and dad report but i have not sought such out...
my guess is dad was a more sincere soul and thus better off than mom might be...
i also believe in reincarnation and and the bible... mainly i came to this view thru the edgar cayce material....
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Well.
At the risk of shaking the board up a little, which hopefully folks will bear and forgive, I have to admit that I agree with you 1000% about negative entities, Michael.
I've had some very, very strange and frightening experiences, in the presence of certain people or after having encountered them, at various times in my life.
Every one of these people would qualify as a major N, if not sociopathic, when I look at them with the knowledge I have gained here.
Everything I know from those experiences says: let her be, where she is, let her be.
Fortunately, there are also positive entities, and they are stronger by far than the negative ones.
Peace be upon you, michael. I have to log off, it's late and I'm about to crash, but I want to talk to you about Cayce sometime.
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Sorry, Michael,
I have way too much on my plate to respond to nonsense posts.
I thought the article was interesting, and thought that there was some interest among some other posters that would justify spending the time to provide a synopsis. But I don't get your syntax, nor your nonsensical comments, so I'll bow out of the interchange at this point.
CB
CB, I am surprised to see this post from you. This seems hostile, even abusive towards Michael. Calling his post 'nonsense' is disparaging and not at all constructive.
Michael has clearly explained that his thought processes are a little different from the norm:
my response was the withdraw from the world
tho full blown to point of personality disorder methinks
what is sometimes termed "secret schizoid"
unfortunately sometimes people who be agitated with my style
take some of my self revelations and run a bit too far with them methinks...
He has the wisdom to see that, and the courage to admit it, and is talking about it up front in an attempt to get it out in the open. He is meeting us where we are, as best he can, while being who he is, because he cannot do otherwise. And who, valuing honesty, would want him to hide behind a false persona?
He's trying to interact and communicate with people here, in his own way. He may be eccentric, but he's trying to be upfront about it. Your response is to disparage him publicly for posting nonsense because you don't like his syntax?
His post isn't nonsense at all. It makes perfect sense, it's just unusually presented.
We recently had someone try to correct another poster's spelling and grammar here, and that was very swiftly criticized - I forget by whom - as being 'unwelcoming'. Well, this is much more than correcting someone's spelling. This is criticizing someone's being.
You are outstanding at speaking up when you think others behave badly here, always ready to step in and correct them when you think it is necessary. If I or anyone else had posted in this manner to someone here, you'd have been on it in a matter of seconds. So I'm sure that you will understand and welcome an appropriate admonition in turn, from someone speaking the truth in love.
Blessings and peace, wisdom and love to you.
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We recently had someone try to correct another poster's spelling and grammar here, and that was very swiftly criticized - I forget by whom - as being 'unwelcoming'. Well, this is much more than correcting someone's spelling. This is criticizing someone's being.
CB was the one to criticize my correction of spelling. How ironic.
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CB, I am surprised to see this post from you.
And I don't understand your surprise, Stormy, since you have already PM'd me about it and I explained my concerns to you. This is probably more of a public reprimand than it is an expression of surprise.
As I have explained, I feel no hostility toward Michael. We were engaging in conversation about the abstract that he had found. He asked if anyone had read the full article. I responded. His posted response was that he was actually an adopted chimpanzee and not a human. Okay. That's where I chose to end the interchange.
It's not abusive to state that that is a nonsensical statement. It is. As I explained in my response to your PM, I understand your concern for Michael, and will have to accept at face value your diagnosis of him as schizoaffective. I am not making any diagnosis or judgment of him. I am not correcting his syntax, his belief that he is a chimpanzee, his spelling, or his all caps style. (I am not criticizing his being, Anon.) There was no correction involved, Storm, except yours of me. I simply ended the conversation.
My biggest concern is that I not perpetuate a dynamic that has happened in many of our dysfunctional relationships, where there is conversation going on that makes no sense, but the enabling parties act as though it does. This has caused that "crazy making" feeling that many of us are so familiar with. I have had this kind of conversation many, many times with many more people than Michael--and I know that when we get to the "chimpanzee" part, we are through having a meaningful discussion.
I think that each of us are concerned about different things on this thread, Stormy. Perhaps we each need to address the aspect that jumps off the page at us. If you feel capable of interacting with Michael, I hope you will continue to do so.
CB
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((((((((((Michael))))))))))
I hear you, and I understood every word. Forgive me if you've explained this and I missed it; are you still in close contact with your mother? It sounds as though she was very enmeshing/engulfing. And demanding, oh yes. And critical, oh yes.
I hope very much that you have escaped...
if so, mum's the word... ;-)
well cb..tho u thought it a nonsense post.... stormchild understood every word :)
but maybe coz she speaks fluent chimapanzee :)
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Hi Michael.
I speak enough Chimp to get by, but my mother tongue is Domestic Shorthair [I was more or less raised by an Abyssinian cat :-) - quite truly - and my children are all feline].
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain’d;
I stand and look at them long and long.
They do not sweat and whine about their condition;
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins;
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God;
Not one is dissatisfied—not one is demented with the mania of owning things;
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago;
Not one is respectable or industrious over the whole earth.
-- Walt Whitman
I may not always keep up with your reasoning; you have a quick, eclectic, very subtil mind; but I'll do my best.
When I fail, which I will now and then, being a felid-hominid hybrid rather than pongid-hominid ;-), I'll try to just admit it, without being either ashamed of myself - or rude to you.