Author Topic: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?  (Read 5002 times)

Confounded

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What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« on: May 22, 2007, 12:05:59 AM »
Copied from another thread:

In reading on the subject I have noted that N has a strong hereditary component.  Thus, I am reluctant to focus on the environment too any great degree. This has been borne out by my personal experience. 

After receiving the diagnosis of "N tendencies" for my H, and having continued problems with his periodic fits of insistence that he is always right (huh?) and anger, I called his mother, looking for explanations and suggestions.  She advised, bottom line, that his father was the same way.  She said that she "ignored" his dad, who "had some very strong ideas," and "once he got going there was no point in talking to him."

I am very interested in any article that can explain what the internal experience is like for the N.  The way that thought process works, I cannot figure out. 

I find myself thinking, "Well, if I'm wrong, and somebody corrects me, then they actually help me. They leave me better than they found me.  However, if someone functioning as an N refuses to see or admit when he's wrong, then he's wrong twice.  He's wrong once in the issue at hand, and again in his refusal to accept that he is mistaken.  Why don't they feel embarrassed?  It's like the Emperor's new clothes.  He's naked for God's sake!" 

I think it's pretty sad.  Sometimes he seems to be posing (e.g., saying that he's always right) simply to aggravate me, and at other times, he seems to actually believe it.  I don't think that he talks to himself internally.  Maybe everybody has an internal dialog, although I have the impression that he may not (hmmm... is there something to this?).  Anyway, if he did have an internal dialog, I think it might sound like this at times, "It's okay.  I'm not wrong.  She's wrong.  I'm not wrong.  She needs to stop saying that I'm wrong.  I'm NOT wrong.  I"M NOT WRONG!  GRRRR!!!"  But then at other times, he can now joke about it, saying, "Oh sure. I'm never wrong.  Never.  (smile)"  It seems like he goes into a delusional state at times, and at other times he is somehow aware that he can become delusional.

In the end, since he hardly pays any attention to anything that is not directly related to his getting his needs met, he knows very little about many things that go on in his immediate vicinity.  Thus, he often has little information with which to operate, and he makes numerous mistakes.  We wants none of these mentioned.  If I tell him that he didn't do something as we had discussed previously, he gets furious. 

What ends up happening feels very odd.  I start thinking that maybe I'm an N because I'm the one finding fault.  But then I think, "I'm just trying to get him to act normal and remember what we discuss."  I suppose that if I worry that I might be an N, when I become annoyed by his chronic  inability to focus on anything outside his own priorities, then I'm probably not an N.  But this talk of needing affirmation (I am more motivated by kudos than $), wanting to do things right (not pretend, actually do it right), and thinking that lots of other people can't cut it (I prefer to deal with other professionals, people who think and speak quickly), sounds like me.  Except that I'm willing to do the work to get the kudos, and if I screw up I definitely want to know about it.  So I just keep coming back the difference between genuine self-confidence and some kind of defensive false confidence, unable to be real, for fear of some horrible outcome.  I don't know what that horrible outcome could be.  Seems like it would be worse to look like an idiot insisting that one is right, when clearly has no clue.

If anybody knows, or has a source that explains, what the inner thoughts are in the N state of mind, I would really appreciate more info on this.   

Hopalong

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2007, 12:09:37 AM »
Hi Confounded,

I'd like to ask something blunt. I know your H drives you crazy. I sympathize...it feels awful to be constantly irritated and frustrated over such poor chemistry and lack of flow between you.

My question, though, is could you ask yourself how you benefit by trying to be right?

It seems like a draining exhausting struggle you are mired in. It's unwinnable.
And it must be misery to feel this tension all the time.

Can either of you just extend grace? I don't know what that means in specific...just ... grace.

I apologize if this isn't helpful. I know it may not be.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Confounded

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2007, 02:07:46 AM »
Hops, thanks for asking.  I'm not into being "right" per se.  I'm just into not having things go wrong.  I try to anticipate and avoid problems.  This has worked very well for me in the business world.  No rework. Get it right the first time and get on to the next thing.

If I screw up, I make some kind of self-deprecating remark, "You make an excellent point.  I seem to have lost track of the primary objective here.  Back to what we were doing."  But if H screws up, his reaction to the news is not even close to reasonable.  He just sort of freaks out sometimes, but not always.  About two weeks ago I became aware that sometimes when he doesn't freak out he IS freaking out internally.  But he's not showing his rage.  He's trying to keep it bottled up, and evidently that's why he finally blows sky-high over something insignificant.  The pressure can't be contained anymore.  It's soooo time consuming, and a complete waste of effort.  I'm just trying to make progress.  But I constantly have to take time out for his tantrums, that is when I'm not explaining something to him for the umpteenth time. 

I try very hard to just let it go, say nothing, assume that he knows what he's doing, not bother with the details... You tell me...

Yesterday (Sunday) I came downstairs and noticed that somebody had moved several bags of bedding that I had placed by the front door, per my step-daughter's request, for her college apartment.  I asked about that and learned that my H had killed a spider, stepping on it, after it had gotten in through the front door.  When he had stepped on it, it had burst open releasing hundreds of minuscule baby spiders.   I asked how he had cleaned it up and he said "Paper towels."  I said nothing, although I wondered if a vacuum would have done a more thorough job.  I winced slightly at the thought of lots of tiny spiders crawling around the area where bags of bedding were awaiting transport, as well as the thought of them in my home.  But I told myself that it would be okay, and I let the matter drop.

My step-daughter came and got the bags.  After they were removed, I looked at the carpet and I could see several tiny spiders crawling away.  They were really small, brown, and very hard to see.  I said that we needed the vacuum.  H said he'd go get it (that was nice).  We got all the vacuum's pieces, and he vacuumed the rug, raking the rug attachment across the edge of the foyer hardwood where it meets the living room carpet.  I hoped that the rug attachment wouldn't break the edge off the hardwood.  I wondered why the loud noise every time it hit the wood didn't bother him (i.e., make him worry that he might wreck the edge of his foyer floor - read waste $).  I said nothing.

He indicated that we was finished.  I told him that the spiders had probably made it onto the hardwood as well, and we could never see them on that brown wood, so we needed to vacuum the wood too.  I didn't say "Duh."   Not even  in my tone.  I was very nice about it.  I used to be less nice when I pointed out things that I thought were "Duh." obvious.  He looked irritated about the delay in the resumption of his leisure activities.  But he began to vacuum the wood, using the rug attachment, which sits too high off of a wood floor to clean up much of anything.  I told him that wasn't working (again, no "Duh").  I said that we needed to attach the floor attachment.  He became angry, threw the wand/rug attachment on the floor (thankfully, it did not damage the floor when he threw it down).  He yelled that he wasn't going to do it then, he had been drinking his coffee!  This all happened at about noon, when he had been drinking coffee for three hours.

I said that I would do the rest of the vacuuming.  The thought of dozens of tiny spiders crawling away through the house across the brown hardwood floor, where one could never see them, was just disgusting.  I had to do something.  So I vacuumed the wooden floor, and seethed.  His anger, and his failure to do the right thing, coupled with his lame attempts to garner lip-service approval of his pathetic efforts make me want to puke.

The entire event was revolting.  He let his own daughter drive back to school with a car full of spiders, because he either a) didn't care, or b) didn't have the presence of mind to realize that you need a vacuum to clean up a mess like that.  Then he got mad at me for helping him see which parts of our own vacuum to use.  I know that he has vacuumed the wood floors before using the right attachment.  Sometimes I wonder if he's losing his marbles.  His dad had Alzheimer's, which got very bad in his mid-eighties.  H is in his early 50's.  Seems too young for that.  He seems to just reach the end of his short little rope, when it comes to being told anything that he needs to do, and he can't think logically anymore.   

Without an organic cause such as Alzheimer's, IMO, none of that should have happened.  A grown man with an MBA, should be able to handle the management of a simple project like cleaning up a somewhat dangerous mess, and as the man of the house, I would hope that he would feel compelled to make it right, so nobody gets hurt.  I know that I could not have blown off doing it right, to say nothing of allowing my daughter, or anybody else's daughter, for that matter, to end up with several bags full of bedding and baby spiders.

I constantly strive to avoid his N rage.  I try to say nothing, even if I disagree.  We have had horrible hours-long arguments when I tried to convince him that his opinion wasn't the only way of looking at someting, or get him to agree to do something differently for the sake of others' feeling, or to avoid stressing people out.  I have finally listened to his mother, and I try to just ignore anything that doesn't require a response.  I try not to care if he says things that are intended to aggravate me or others.  I try not to listen to his incessant complaining.  I try to see the good in him.  But the complaining, the negativity, the lack of attention to the details of his own life, are all soooo boring.   Sometimes I wonder if I'm going to die of boredom or stress. 

I would just like to know, once and for all, what is going on inside his head?  What does it sound like in there?

He wants adulation, for effort that is average, if that.  I just want to work as a team.  Two heads are better than one.  I love to do great work, as part of a team.   H wants to be praised for doing great work, without having done much of anything.  He resents doing real work so much that if he does do something great, and I praise him, his bitterness about having spent hours working seem to outweigh the kudos that he has earned legitimately.

Does anybody know where I can read about what goes on inside such a mind?  Does this all make sense to him somehow, or does nothing have to make sense?  Is this a logic-free zone?

Portia

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2007, 06:09:14 AM »
Hi Confounded

from the perspective that men are different to women (and not addressing the N aspect at all)

Quote
A grown man with an MBA, should be able to handle the management of a simple project like cleaning up a somewhat dangerous mess, and as the man of the house, I would hope that he would feel compelled to make it right, so nobody gets hurt.

I lived through your description of the spider episode (I'm pretty much an arachnaphobe). No way would I get a man - any man! - to deal with it.

This is my theory, I test it with my H sometimes. I say "see that lump of black on the <pale-ish green> carpet?" and he cannot see it. I say "there" and point and nope, he doesn't see it. He's not concerned.

When men go to the fridge for something specific, they can't find it. "Where's the cheese?" they say. And it's in front of them, but they can't see it.

I think it's basic biology, back to the caves. It's important for us to keep the cave clean and to know where everything is, with the kids to look after, the food to keep away from other animals etc.

Women actually have a wider span of vision than men. We can take more in about our surroundings. We can hear better too, knowing which baby is crying out of several.

Men are great at focus and concentration. They can pinpoint an antelope they want to kill and go for it. They can be aware of danger from a predator, but everything else is unimportant at that moment. What they can't do is sweep a scene and find the relevant (but pretty unimportant) information, or piece of cheese, quickly. Their life doesn't depend on it.

But they can enter any room and know within seconds where the best fire exits are.

I think it's horses for courses. Maybe your H doesn't see a bunch of tiny spiders as that big a threat. I wouldn't ask mine to do that job because he simply wouldn't do it to my standard. I'm a neat freak about insects, i know how best to use the vacuum (as you described so well!) but my H, it's not his skill at all. He's a professional and uses his brain on strategic and tactical stuff. He likes detail too, but only when there's a clear and useful objective to be achieved.

Oh and he doesn't like me stranding over him instructing him on how to do a job. It drives him bananas and i can understand why: I'm almost criticizing his performance and letting him know, in emotional terms, that he's not measuring up. He wants to be valued for what he's good at and not asked to do tasks which I'd be better at. And he's not an N at all, just a man!

Hope something in there makes some sense. Took me years to figure this thing out!

camper

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2007, 09:31:16 AM »
Confounded, this is my H to a "t".  I have a hard time not becoming short with him when he lacks common sense.  I have learned to use phrases like:  that's what you think?,  you would think that,  you are absolutely right,.....these are a good way to end the discussion and walk away.  I am sick of trying to argue my point and I don't care anymore.  N's are know-it-alls and it is useless trying to tell them otherwise.  I just tried to explain to H how he sets himself up to a higher standard by acting like a know-it-all.  I recently told him what a hypocrite he is.  I later told him that he should try getting through a day without doling out advice.  He gives advice to anyone he can and preaches.  By doing this he is putting himself on a platform by which he is expected to at least practice what he preaches.  He magnifies his hypocrises because people see what he knows in his head, and then they see he can't live up to what he preaches.  If he is going to preach, then he better practice it!  He actually understood what I was saying.  He understood how he sets himself up.  I explained that he needs to listen and ask questions rather than start preaching.  He understood! 

there is a book, "Why He does That"  by Lundy.  She attempts to explain what they are thinking.  It was that book that clued me into my H. 

You really can't make sense out of the "N" because you didn't grow up in their environment.  They can't even understand themselves!  My H is clueless to his crap.  He thinks he is normal.  they surround themselves with others like them so of course they think they are normal. 

My H needs affirmation.  I struggle so badly with this.  As a stay-at-home mom, I work my butt off all day doing, doing, doing, for my family.  I don't need anyone telling me, every step of the way, what a great job I am doing.  I don't expect it.  I just do it.  So, when it comes to telling my H he did a great job emptying out the dishwasher, after I had done it twice today already, or thank him for emptying the garbage, after I had done it all week and he finally did it, I JUST CAN'T.  As part of this family, shouldn't I expect something from him every now and then?  Why does he need a parade every time he does something?  Our T asked that I do it.  My H isn't 2 years old for pete's sake!  But that is how I am to treat him.  So last nght my H insisted on cleaning up the dinner table.  I was helping and he told me to let him do it.  So I told him he does a great job cleaning up and he can do it.  Now, I wanted to gag.  2 minutes later he smiled and hugged me and told me he loved me.  All that just because I told him he does a great job.  I can't deal with this craziness!  We were in church on Sunday and I needed advil so I asked if he had some in his car.  He said he would run and get some for me.  I said, "really, you really will?"  So he ran and came back and as he was coming, I was going (the lady next to us had to get up to let him in so I used that to get me out).  then he hands me a cup of water...I mumbled that I wasn't going to drink that during the sermon...and I left.  I am funny about people around me seeing what is going on...and we typically can't bring drinks and food in the sanctuary.  Later that day, he told me how angry he was because he had been so excited to run and get me the advil. and he was going to bring me water so I wouldn't have to leave.  He had done a good thing and all I did was complain.  He was right(ouch).  He needed affirmation...what a good boy, that was so nice of you, good job...and I didn't give it to him.  He let me know how I failed.  I listened carefully and said nothing. 

In the past, I had made sure I didn't let him do things because of the response he expects and how I fail to deliver.  It is easier to do things myself.  I am running myself ragged trying to do things by myself but it is so much easier not having to deal with his neediness.  He is pretty much free to just have fun and not worry about things around the house.  I am enabling him.  He has a pretty easy life.  I put most things on my shoulders so he gets his way.  I have learned to control things around him to keep him happy.  I give up myself.  the world revolves around him.  I was in the middle of a TV show and he sat down and asked if I was watching it because he wanted to watch a movie.  You can guess, I said I wasn't watching and he could turn on his movie. 

So, confounded, I am right there with you.  I am adjusting.  Sometimes it is fun to push a button and watch him dance. 8)  I is amazing how easy it is, and I get a thrill from it.  Try it, it will lighten things up and give you a sense of control.

MICHAEL

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2007, 11:24:58 AM »
Hi Confounded

from the perspective that men are different to women (and not addressing the N aspect at all)

Quote
A grown man with an MBA, should be able to handle the management of a simple project like cleaning up a somewhat dangerous mess, and as the man of the house, I would hope that he would feel compelled to make it right, so nobody gets hurt.

I lived through your description of the spider episode (I'm pretty much an arachnaphobe). No way would I get a man - any man! - to deal with it.

This is my theory, I test it with my H sometimes. I say "see that lump of black on the <pale-ish green> carpet?" and he cannot see it. I say "there" and point and nope, he doesn't see it. He's not concerned.

When men go to the fridge for something specific, they can't find it. "Where's the cheese?" they say. And it's in front of them, but they can't see it.

I think it's basic biology, back to the caves. It's important for us to keep the cave clean and to know where everything is, with the kids to look after, the food to keep away from other animals etc.

Women actually have a wider span of vision than men. We can take more in about our surroundings. We can hear better too, knowing which baby is crying out of several.

Men are great at focus and concentration. They can pinpoint an antelope they want to kill and go for it. They can be aware of danger from a predator, but everything else is unimportant at that moment. What they can't do is sweep a scene and find the relevant (but pretty unimportant) information, or piece of cheese, quickly. Their life doesn't depend on it.

But they can enter any room and know within seconds where the best fire exits are.

I think it's horses for courses. Maybe your H doesn't see a bunch of tiny spiders as that big a threat. I wouldn't ask mine to do that job because he simply wouldn't do it to my standard. I'm a neat freak about insects, i know how best to use the vacuum (as you described so well!) but my H, it's not his skill at all. He's a professional and uses his brain on strategic and tactical stuff. He likes detail too, but only when there's a clear and useful objective to be achieved.

Oh and he doesn't like me stranding over him instructing him on how to do a job. It drives him bananas and i can understand why: I'm almost criticizing his performance and letting him know, in emotional terms, that he's not measuring up. He wants to be valued for what he's good at and not asked to do tasks which I'd be better at. And he's not an N at all, just a man!

Hope something in there makes some sense. Took me years to figure this thing out!
SEVERAL THOUGHTS HERE ABOUT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN..
one is a book suggestion THE MEN WE NEVER KNEW by daphne rose kingma ...
i might get back to book later here..
but first now about the more aware of visual details that women tend to have...
what can happen then it is harder for women to choose the most important focus...
but they tend to [without realizing it usually] focus on their own emotional bias as if that is the most important detail...
men might realize to some degree that women are not likely to be honest about their own emotional bias
and that women can often outmaneuver them by being more intuitive too of a wider range of energy...
so kind of what i think kingma says in the book...men give up
but feel like they are being asked as if they should join in this emotional playing field as a joy
but tend not to want to coz it can be very hard to get a woman to recognize her own emotional biases....

once again women tend to believe that their focus of what is key and important is superior to men
when it is not necessarily as true as they would like to believe
and in the meantime some key point of truer consistency of needs
might be better perceived by men who tend to be in general more logiical and consistent...
THUS THE BATTLE OF THE SEXES MAYBE :)

AND FINALLY THIS...
MICHAEL DOES THE TRULY WISE THING
DUCKS AND RUNS :p

michael

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2007, 11:41:32 AM »
A KIND OF FOLLOW UP TO MY PREVIOUS EMAIL..I THINK..
why narcissistic or maybe more psychopathic men are so irritating to women
that they in some form pick up on doubts and flaws in womens assumptions about their own true goodness
that is a bit too self serving
..in fact maybe it is a key way they play women...
but the way a narcissistic man would play a woman might well be quite different than the way a malignant narcissist aka to me psychopath ...would play a woman..
too...i think women tend more towards the narcissistic end of the spectrum
and men towards the psychopathic end

sigh hopefully most by now have some sense of the spectrum between narciissist and psychopath..
mixing to your saidist and antisocial of course too :)

CB123

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2007, 12:56:20 PM »
So, confounded, I am right there with you.  I am adjusting.  Sometimes it is fun to push a button and watch him dance.   I is amazing how easy it is, and I get a thrill from it.  Try it, it will lighten things up and give you a sense of control.

Yuck.  That sounds terrible, Camper.  Are you utilizing this tactic on a short term basis, or is this how you are going to cope long term? 

I am all for regaining control of my own life, but it feels kind of creepy to get a kick out of controllilng someone else.  Can you explain what you're thinking?

CB 
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Hopalong

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2007, 03:35:13 PM »
Hi Confounded and Camper:

I think contempt makes healing impossible.

Camper, you can resent him but if you don't mind me being blunt (I'm doing that a bunch lately but please know I mean well) you need to take responsibility for saying No, or Yes, or whatever. (As with the TV show.) As to praising him, perhaps the T means just, show appreciation and gratitude without keeping score. Then, he'll pick up the habit. I think your silencing yourself, suppressing your own identity and fullness of life, is creating resentment. IOW, your not taking your own feelings and needs seriously, is coming out in your irritation with him. And some of that isn't his problem...you'll have to fight to see yourself with new respect. Once you respect your own autonomy and interest and value as a person, then you'll be more likely to find things to respect in him.

But as to letting him be a child at home instead of a partner? Nah. Just quit doing more than is fair. So here's where you DO keep score (only it's not "score", it's an objective record). Make a list for him of all what you want him to do without being asked. If he doesn't do it, shove over his mess and leave it there and just keep doing your share. Or go on strike. Stop doing his laundry and ... well, whatever makes sense in your household. Or go away for a week. A little shock therapy done without blowing up might do more to help you both than all the arguing you can pack into a week.

Sometimes, men who are good at heart are grateful for a wakeup call. It's astonishing how many can overlook the practical tedium and exhausting contributions of a woman who works at home, but they can. But if we treat them like another child, that doesn't help.

Confounded:
Same general thought...I think contempt is corrosive. It does no good to watch him under a microscope and think or express scathing thoughts about his stupidity and lack of logic. It's like an acid drip. He is not you. He does not have your brain. He does not approach tasks in the precise, efficient, logical way you do. He is a different person. What were the qualities he had in the beginning that you appreciated about him? Are they still there, in his nature?

The way he is, is the reality of him and all the criticism in the world will not change that. So, you've either got to make room for his way of being, or not. You could work out compromises, but I think the scripts you're describing sound like just seething, poking, hissing, sticking, kinds of things.

But since your man also sounds abusive...I dunno. I think if I were criticized that much I might become more irrational and explosive than I might naturally be. I don't know if that's true for him though. It is his responsibility, his rage behavior. It might be simply that chemistry is a truth that gets overlooked in courtship mode. And in some unhappy circumstances, we realize too late that we do not have a liveable chemistry with our partner.

It's a sad truth but which is worse? Establishing a new, serene life, or continuing to live with someone you loathe?

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

camper

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2007, 05:21:20 PM »
So, confounded, I am right there with you.  I am adjusting.  Sometimes it is fun to push a button and watch him dance.   I is amazing how easy it is, and I get a thrill from it.  Try it, it will lighten things up and give you a sense of control.

Yuck.  That sounds terrible, Camper.  Are you utilizing this tactic on a short term basis, or is this how you are going to cope long term? 

I am all for regaining control of my own life, but it feels kind of creepy to get a kick out of controllilng someone else.  Can you explain what you're thinking?

CB 

I have learned how my H is going to react sometimes.  So, I respond a certain way to watch his reaction(usually OVER-reaction)  He has a habit of not letting me finish what I am saying and he goes off..over-reacting and it is really silly.  I let him go on and on and when he is done, I tell him the rest.  He usually sees how silly he was in his over-reacting to what I didn't even finish telling him.  It is his fault for not listening so I let him do what he does.  Long term, I am not sure what is going to happen.  I have been living with him for 13 years and I have been getting by, keeping peace most of the time.  It is a game I have gotten use to.  I tell him what I think he wants to hear and he's happy.  He hates me watching TV and he despises certain shows, so, to see his reaction, I will turn on  one of those "evil" shows and see what happens.  Sad, isn't it.  The sense of control comes from watching him dance.  Honestly, I am not smart enough to manipulate in order to control much more than this. 

debkor

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2007, 07:04:41 PM »
Camper,

I  think I understand what you are saying. I had done the same myself.   I did things to aggravate the hell out of my ex..  To watch him dance only I was dancing along with him getting pleasure out of almost felt like a payback.   It was a payback.  It was a watch me do what I want and watch you hate it. The faces he made the annoyance I caused made me feel good.  Made me feel like I still had some power.  But really why bother.  Why did I want to annoy him?I wanted a reaction.  I wanted him like you say, dance.  Only I was dancing too. But I do understand what you mean.
You are very P***ed off and this is your way of feeling you have some control and this is how you are getting your anger out by making him  maybe angry, disgusted? Almost making him walk in your shoes of things you cannot control (he can't control over you).  Something you (enjoy) not something you have to do like dishes, laundry, garbage, chores that you really don't want to do alone but have to get done.  So when he helps with those and looks for Aren't I good, look what I've done, didn't I do good,  to a yes dear you did and then receive hugs and kisses would not be a pay back because it's not enjoyable it's part of living you really don't feel control but the TV shows you do because it's yours, you enjoy them, he does not and you feel control because you are doing something that you like and you just enjoy the hec out of him knowing that this is one thing he cannot control so you make sure he knows it.

Is this what you mean? 


As far as the T my  T use to say Deb when he does something good give him a pat on the back.  I know what the T meant but ew! I could not, I would not but my marriage was over I wanted out.  I didn't want to work anything out with my H except which was the closest route to the door.


Love
Deb

camper

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2007, 08:17:44 PM »
You got it Deb.  I have a hard time explaining myself sometimes.  I do have to learn to give my H a pat on the back.  It is so hard though. 

Stormchild

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2007, 08:26:00 AM »
Hi Hops:

Contempt - aka disgust - can be the only available source of sufficient emotional energy to both motivate and make it possible for a person to escape an untenable, and yes, contemptible, set of circumstances.

We were given the full range of emotions for a reason. Emotions are tools and warning signals. No emotion in itself is 'bad'. It's only the misuse of an emotion, or the becoming 'addicted' to it, that is 'bad'.

You mean well in your comments to camper and confounded, and it's obvious, but for people who are desperate to escape an untenable situation, condemning them for feeling contemptuous of [or disgusted by] their situation [and/or the people who contribute to it] may well deprive them of the only force in their lives that is strong enough to make escape possible.

You yourself, I think, left your last husband after he gratuitously abused your child. Was there no disgust involved? Did you truly feel no contempt for the man? That's very hard to believe.

Clinging to contempt after it's served its purpose... now, that's another story.

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Confounded

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2007, 06:13:04 PM »
Thank you all for your assistance.  This is all very stressful. The anger, the black and white thinking (or what might pass for "thinking"), and our mutual feelings of disappointment and bewilderment, all weigh heavily on me.

Camper and Ami, thank you very much for the references to authors Lundy and Vaknin.  I do hope that I can learn my way out of this mess.

Portia, your description of of men's field of vision, smaller than women's, is very interesting.  I actually took a course in Physiological  Psychology right before I started my MBA, and that was not covered.  I need to look into this further.  I am aware of gender differences in this area, but have not made a study of it, as you have.  Do you have a favorite book on the topic?

Hops, I am aware that H doesn't have my mind.  In his more lucid moments, he is aware of it as well.  We're both MBA's.  I'm in Mensa.  He's pretty sure the couldn't get in.  I consistently kill on standardized tests.  In his case...  "Not so much." (as Jon Stewart says, which amuses me for some reason). 

Please be aware that my criticism of H is only in counterattack mode.  The criticism is mainly coming from him to me.  In spite of all evidence to the contrary, H likes to talk endlessly about how  he has all the answers, and everything would be fine if everybody would just do what he says all the time.  I have stopped reacting to this stuff.  It's just stupid baiting.  I hate it.  It's boring and a waste of time.  As is evidently common for N's, he did not do this early on in our relationship.  It started only after we were engaged, which happened fast.  Once we were engaged, I was reluctant to back out.  That seemed like a very flaky thing to do, agree to marry somebody and then change my mind.  When he's not in a bad mood, I'm glad we went forward together.  But when he's in a bad mood.  I'm sorry that I didn't heed the first warnings, and cut it off.  According to my middle sister's T, my mom is an N (I do not doubt that this is true). She stresses me out.  Now he stresses me out.  I hate it all.

As for the contempt, it waxes and wanes.  Right now, we are working on the end of TWO huge projects, remodeling our one acre yard and the interior of our home.  We're at about 90% completion on both.  H complains endlessly about all the work.  I have tried to get through to him that I appreciate all of his hard work, but his endless negative complaining about how none of this needs to be done (and I am unreasonable, ridiculous, whatever) is so unbearable that it pretty much cancels out my appreciation.  It is as if he had done nothing, because he is so consistently awful about it.  He acts like a child, who goes to work just as a child goes to school and then comes home and wants to play for the rest of the day.  I did not select this home.  His prior (dead) wife did.  It was in a state of extreme disrepair when I got here.  I became VERY depressed early on in our relationship.  Now that I have dug my way out of that hole, having been given some understanding of what is going on here, I am working to make things look okay around here.  We are making progress.  But I HATE working with him.  I like working with doers, not whiners.   
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 11:23:43 PM by Confounded »

Hopalong

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Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2007, 08:45:10 PM »
Dear Confounded,
I'm so sorry about the atmosphere....it sounds joyless.

I hope the work pays off, and I am certain your work here will.

Thanks for the fuller explanation of why you feel so frustrated.

Have you thought of any new outlets that might release some of the steam?

(I've never been through a renovation with anyone, but I hear that can REALLY tax a relationship too.)

Sending best wishes,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."