Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on May 26, 2007, 12:19:36 PM
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How would you suggest protecting children from an N parent?
Can a non N parent be a good enough parent to limit, if not prevent, long term damage to the children?
What major points would you submit to someone raising children with an N partner?
Thanks for your input.
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Hi lighter,
I co parented XN's daughter with him for 3.5 years. I always made it clear about my values which were very different from his. I do hope that showing her another way of being may have had some impact on her life, I do hope so.
Many people here are experts in coparenting with Ns and they have a wealth of knowledge.
Wishing you the best,
axa
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I am an adult child of one N and one N-abler, and my vote is for getting the kids out.
There is a strong likelihood that your kids will model their adult relationships on yours, and
they will end up stuck with Ns, staying with them for the sake of their children's theoretical happiness, and passing the torch on to those very children in turn, who will
model their adult relationships on your childrens', end up stuck with Ns, staying with them for the sake of their children's theoretical happiness, passing the torch on to their own children in turn, who will
model their adult relationships on your grandchildrens', end up stuck with Ns...
unfolding generation upon generation of misery and heartbreak. Have the courage to end it before it begins. Get them away, get them a better model, even if it has to be
'One healthy parent functioning alone is better than one parent who wishes they were healthy, but is stuck with a jerk and twisting themselves like a pretzel to try to head off all the problems all the time, and never quite manages to cover everything, because it's not humanly possible.'
It'd be interesting to hear from an adult child of an N whose parents stayed together and who really thinks that the suffering of the non-N parent was entirely worthwhile, for the child's sake. I suspect there aren't very many people like that, not very many kids who'd consign a parent they love to a lifetime of suffering, if they understood what was going on.
[Except second generation Ns. They would think that way. It takes a lot of nerve to consign someone you claim to love, to hell on earth, in order to make things a little bit easier for yourself... Others don't usually find this admirable. It doesn't exactly demonstrate integrity and strength of character.]
Edit in: this is very different from realizing, in middle age or slightly before, that one of your parents did in fact sacrifice themselves in this way, and being grateful to them for what they endured on your behalf. It is one thing to value past sacrifices, once past; it's another thing to feel that you would have demanded them, if you had known at the time that they were being made.
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How would you suggest protecting children from an N parent?
Can a non N parent be a good enough parent to limit, if not prevent, long term damage to the children?
What major points would you submit to someone raising children with an N partner?
Thanks for your input.
I've always kind of wondered if things wouldn't have been better for me if I been shipped off to a military school at about age 10 :) It was about then that my father's problems really started to escalate.
It seems to me one really conscious parent might be able to overcome the long term effects on the children. Someone has to mentally step outside the system, understand what is going on, and learn to function as a real parent for the children. I suspect kids can "discount" the N parent if they have someone functional to lean on. The more typical N family system is like a never ending game, where the kids end up having to parent their parents. At least that is what it felt like to me.
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REading this thread has made me very sad. I think of XN's D. She is now under the control of XN and her mother who abandoned her and then walked back into her life as if nothing happened. I know I can do nothing about it but also know the difficulties and pain she will encounter in her life. My heart goes out to the children of Ns
axa
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Dear Lighter,
I am still with my H. He has N traits but is nowhere near my mother who is an N-for sure.
However,,I think that my H is N enough to answer the question.
I stayed for over 20 years and have 2 sons-19 and 21.
I wanted to leave many times and I still do.
However, one reason that I stayed was that I did not want them to have a 'broken "home. Also, I could stay home with them if I was married . I thought that this was important.
Also, my H would have been very vengeful in a divorce, I thought.
.Also, I did not want step children ETC if I were to marry again or if my husband were to.
For all these reasons and others, I stayed.
The good part is that my children are good. I am very close to them because of the amount of time that I spent with them.
One BIG thing that I would do over is to be stronger. I would have ZERO tolerance for abuse .
I let myself and the kids be abused emotionally and a little physically.
I have a zero tolerance policy now so our house is not "crazy.'
I am really close to my sons and I feel that I did a good job in this with the choices that I had available.
One big thing that kept me here was the 'Horror' of EVER repeating this relationship with another man. I had a "waking nightmare" of waking up with a new H and he was the SAME as my other.
That is my story and I am sticking to it(unfortunately) Love Ami
hi ami,
some thoughts and questions about what you said above...
do you have hope that you husband can improve or fully free himself of his disorder...
do you love him or just put up with him for the sake of the kids....
i think it seems that you are still married,,, am i wrong...if so, why still married it the kids are 19 and 21..for the sake of college tuition?
do you plan at some point ot divorce if u r still married...
what are some of the big signs that your husband is n and has he changed much in that regard over the years..
are some of your decisions influenced by any religious or spiritual sense..do you believe in miracles supernationally and supernatural powers
of personal transformation...
that's if for now..
no need to answer ifn you dont feel comfortable answering or u dont feel it relative and helpful and insightful
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One big thing that kept me here was the 'Horror' of EVER repeating this relationship with another man. I had a "waking nightmare" of waking up with a new H and he was the SAME as my other.
Ami,
I know exactly what you mean. I have purposefully avoided getting inviolved in a love relationships (I'm single) ever since I've become aware of my parent's Nism. Actually, about 1 year before I even knew what Nism was, I started shying away from love relationships because I never felt "happy" in a love relationships: I always chose the "wrong" guy and I wanted to be free of relationship misery and I didn't know how to stand up fgor myself or handle conflicts. Once I found out about Nism, then I understood WHY I chose the wrong guy: I always chose Ns.
Anyway, now that I'm aware of Nism, I run if a guy shows red flags and I'm looking for healthy people. Just wanted to tell you that I COMPLETELY undertsand how you felt and I also understand your decision to stay with your NH for the sake of your children. But, know that you know about Nism, you may or may not decide to leave NH, but at least you will be making a conscious decision.
Much love,
sally
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I was looking for more information on the subject of helping our children cope with N parents. I'm providing these messages and found them helpful. Many of these women have excellent information and have been there, done that.
/Doc@DrIrene.com
Interactive Board: My Ex MisTreats Our Son...
September 7, 2005
Dear Dr. Irene
I was married to a man that was, I always though, controlling and manipulative. I finally left him when my son was a year old - only because he refused to end an affair of a couple years in length. Good for you! Of course, that was my fault of course..., but that is another story in and of itself. I'm sure it is...
I will not make excuses for tolerating his behavior, and am trying to work around it. I came from a sexually abusive family, and was raped at 18. I was in the process of putting my life together when I met him. I know, excuses. No, not "excuses." You were doing what we all do: arranging your life according to what you knew; what was familiar. This is your learning history and it shapes you about as much as your genetics do.
My question, is not for myself but for my son, who is 7. I share custody with my ex. For some reason, I believed that my ex's treatment of my would not extend to my child. Yet now I am faced with statements he makes to my child that make me cringe.
My son must do certain things to show his love for his father. That includes an excited "Daddy!", whenever he sees him. (When he doesn't my ex accuses him of not respecting, appreciating or loving him. Ugh!) If my son doesn't call him when he is with me, my ex tells him how sad he was. My ex will tell my son that he was all alone and so sad that they weren't together. He asks at the end of visits and at the beginning to insure that frequent phone calls occur. Does your son have a law guardian? This is very manipulative stuff, as I'm sure you know.
My ex will get mad at my son for "making him look like a bad father" when I confront him on bad behavior. Most recently my ex was asking my son if he really loved him. Ugh... I think you need to talk to your attorney...
To my shame, everything echoes my relationship with my ex. Everything I had to do to "prove" my love to him. And all of the things he said I did that showed him that I didn't love him. I have avoided conflict with him, because I could never win an argument. I could never get my point across because you wanted him to "understand;" to see things as you saw them, and in the end had everything always turn out to be my fault. Of course. I have let myself struggle because I did not want to fight with him over money. I let him win, basically. Because it would be extremely stressful if you did not.
Because of my childhood, I swore that I would never just roll over. I would protect my own child should it become necessary. That is what haunts me now. OK, so you have to learn to fight a little better. Keep in mind though that you grew up with sexual abuse. That is, I think, the worst kind of abuse a child can undergo. Your son is not in a sexual abuse situation, and that is good news! Also, while you don't know how to counter your ex-husband's antics yet, you do know what is going on. Your job will be to help your child understand that what dad is doing is not OK, and why, in a manner appropriate to his age, and in a manner which does not bash his dad, but which also does not excuse him.
How do I confront someone that has always won in the past? My son loves his father, and wants to share time with him. How do I foster a healthy relationship between my son and his father? You can't foster their relationship. You have no control over their relationship. But you can help your son understand that some of what daddy is asking for is not OK, and that it's not his responsibility to make his daddy happy, even though daddy thinks it is.
In the past I have made excuses for my ex. Don't do this. My thought was that if I gave an explanation to my son, he wouldn't feel rejection, or that there was something wrong with him. Just be honest. You have to find an age-appropriate way tell him that while both of you love him very much, the reason you got divorced is because daddy has some problems: daddy has certain expectations of others that are just impossible to meet - and should in fact not be met! And while it is OK to love daddy, it is also OK not to meet all of daddy's expectations. On the other hand, I don't want to put my ex down There is a difference between putting daddy down and stating the truth: that some of daddy's expectations of us are not OK and not healthy., and have my son not feel free to talk to me about things. I also don't want him to get beaten over the head with what is said, when I am not around to protect him. Please consider involving a law guardian - and a therapist!
On the latest, do you love me comment, I had lost my ability to rationalize, and just told my son that some people are insecure, that the best thing my son could do was be himself, and answers his fathers question. This is actually a pretty excellent answer! It is the truth.
I am not concerned about physical violence. My ex only hit me once, and that wasn't a black eye causing event. He does not want to be "the bad guy" with my son, so I just don't foresee that as an issue. Excellent.
I am forced to face the confrontation. A school counselor, told me once that my son trusts everything I say implicitly, "Mommy said so, so it must be true". I was warned that I needed to be more honest with him, so as not to lose that trust, that I needed to stop protecting him. Yes! I am simply at a loss on how to be honest, encourage his self esteem, and help maintain a good relationship with his father. Don't you see, you just did it in your reply above. You told your kid that daddy's expectation of him was BS, which is was, and that he should just be himself. You are not blocking his relationship with his father. You are clarifying his relationship with his father, and you are not lying about who his father is.
Any advice, or direction I can take, would be much appreciated. Maya
Dear Maya, Hehehe... Just be YourSelf! The way you answered your son was honest and to the point. You won't get too far with your son if you try to justify your ex-husband's emotionally abusive interactive style. At some point, he will no longer believe you. Be honest. You are not putting daddy down if you simply call a spade a spade.
So maybe you're not too good at standing up to him for yourself, but you sure did a great job with that comment to your son!
In an age-appropriate manner (as you used above) tell your son that you are glad he loves his daddy and you want them to have a good relationship. Also tell your son that you don't agree with daddy when what daddy wants hurts him. Tell him that daddy does not want to hurt him on purpose, yet, that is exactly what is happening - and that is not OK. That this is exactly why you and daddy are not together anymore.
You told your son that daddy was "insecure." This is very good, because it is the truth.
The older your boy gets, the more you can explain. It would be very helpful if you could find a counselor to work with. It is difficult for a child to understand that there is something fundamentally wrong with one of their parents.
Meanwhile, do your best to deal with your ex. Kids learn via "modeling," or by imitating their parents' behavior. The better you model healthy behavior, the more likely your son is to learn it. So, continue to work on learning to deal with your ex. Pick up a copy of The Secret of Overcoming Verbal Abuse: Getting Off the Emotional Roller Coaster and Regaining Control of Your Life by Albert Ellis et al. and practice it, master it.
Think about what I've said and feel free to post any questions or comments you have. I will be back in about a week to answer your concerns.
Readers: Any comments for Maya? This is a tough situation, yet it comes up too often. How have you handled these issues?
My warmest regards to you Maya, Dr. Irene
You can no longer post, but you can read the posts: click here.
Comments: Ex MisTreats Our Son
Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.
Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 1998-2005. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com
Maya, Your concerns are so familiar. I have come tonight to this website seeking sanity, clarity - A probably bi-annual visit, and here is your letter, posted today. My Ex is seeking custody of my son, just turned 13. His Dad has been pressuring him for two years now (He left 8 years ago), and now that our older son has graduated HS, he filed for custody at the same time as discontinuing support for the older one. The thing is, he pushes and pressures until he gets what he wants and goes on to push for the next thing. He says things over and over again until it starts to sound normal or real. My kids are the priority in my life. We have three: two now in college and the youngest in 8th grade. I make my decisions based on what's best for them. Their Dad doesn't contribute to college, rarely goes to their concerts or sports, doesn't take the youngest to religious education or extracurricular activities when he visits (says it is his time), and talks to them in a confiding manner, subtly slandering/criticizing me or their school, friends, etc.. It has been one trauma, distortion, and accusation after another for the last 8 years. I am angry, afraid, confused, and tired. I want to tell myself that this custody struggle will be the end of all that, a new beginning. But I don't how. I like the advice of telling the truth. Knowing it and holding on to it, not internalizing the blame or the distortions, not becoming confused and panicky, - that is not easy for me. I keep seeking a witness for clarify and validation, although that can backfire sometimes. I used to know things; now I'm mostly scared. What do you do if someone always wins? If they cheat and lie to win, and seem to think that you need to be hurting so that they are not? kd
Submit
Monday, September 12, 2005
HI Maya, I can relate to the difficulties in relating to an ex who is not outright abusive however you know in your heart is not being fair to your son. It is so painful to watch when some of this you will not control no matter what you do. I have 3 kids, almost 15, almost 12 and 8. The oldest sees dad pretty honestly. She is frustrated going to his house and angry at his behavior. We have been separated about 6 months now and he keeps on pushing for a 50-50 split. I just do not agree. Recently my oldest child's best friend told me that he thought she would have serious problems spending 50-50 with dad. Based on that I spoke to her briefly and she does not even want as much time as she has now. She is almost 15 so the courts may listen to her. The younger children express frustration but not as directly. One thing I have done for many years and probably breaks the `rules' is stand up for my kids when he is out of line. I was always told to put my marriage before the kids but when he was unreasonable I could not do that. It is harder when they are out of your house and you do not know what is happening exactly. I do try to ask more questions that impose answers and it sounds like you are doing that with your son. I listen and comment on what I hear. Some complaints are pretty typical kid complaints like having to do the dishes. I do not back up the kids on that type of complaint generally. When they say he is late all the time or has a hard time getting up in the morning I do tell them that this has always been an issue so they should not expect much change. When they say he breaks his word or is fixing dinner so late they feel sick I encourage them to talk to him. They also have a counselor who can help out. Does your son have any type of counselor to work with? It may be useful to have a neutral party tell him that dad's behavior is not his fault and he can do nothing about it. The most important thing I want for my kids regardless of the time split with dad is that they know what is their fault and what is not. I am concerned they will internalize responsibility for what dad is feeling and doing. Because I do not think they can live at his house 50% and maintain this I am spending money on an investigator who will talk to us, the kids, teachers and DR's, etc. in order to make a recommendation to the court about custody. You can do a lot with modeling but you may also need to address actual time between households. You said you shared but I did not get a feel for how much time was at each house. It may be important eventually for your son to realize that the healthier parent gets more time to provide a stable home. Good luck
Submit
Wednesday, September 14, 2005
Dr Irene, I used your advice. A little explanation, I suffered a serious injury, and have to move because I need the help physically. When I wouldn't readily give my son up, I ended up in court. A number of things have been said to him, including that he won't see me ever again. ???!!! I talked to the attorney about everything and just got told not to say anything right now. Unfortunately, this is what happens when we become litigious... Meanwhile my little boy is saving things "in the right side of his brain", so that he doesn't have to tell his father. I want to put him in counseling, just to give him a safe place to talk about what worries him, without having to think of his father or myself. A very good idea! Now he only has a whopping three weeks left with me. I can't even figure out how to tell him that he won't see me for the next six months, because the courts wouldn't even alter our custody agreement for me to have visitation until the hearing. I think you have to tell him something! He's going to worry about you and wonder if anything (bad) he did made mommy go away! Kids blame themselves. Which means his dad has control over it, and he already told me he wouldn't let him go. All this time I have told him that he needn't worry that the courts would always make sure he got to see his mother and father. I believed it, I was wrong. Now, how do I tell him that. You tell him. Find a way to tell him so that he doesn't think you went away because he did something wrong; find a way to tell him so he does not think you abandoned him! Are there any tools I can give him to help him with his father, when I am not here? How about a therapist and a law guardian? How about frequent phone calls, cards and letters, and even email. I don't feel I can answer your question very well because it makes no sense to me at all why you won't see your son for the next six months! I suppose you are moving far away, but you can make it your business to visit monthly or so. Am I really going to become "irrelevant" in his life? You are his Mom Maya. Moms are very special people! I don't think you need to worry about being irrelevant. I do think you need to make it your business to see him and/or somehow communicate with him as much as possible. Also explain that you are not leaving because you don't love him, etc., etc. Be honest with him; tell him what happened with the courts in a way he can understand; tell him you'll always be there for him, and how you expect to communicate with him over the next few months. Let him know that just because you won't be around all the time does not mean you will be out of his life. It would be good if he knew your phone number and could reach you when he wanted too. Teach him how to call you! Thank you for your time, Maya Dear Maya, this certainly won't be easy for either of you. I wish you a speedy recovery and a speedy reunion with your child. May God bless you and yours. Dr. Irene
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lighter,
This is such a very very tough emotional issue. I survived an N father. So what I have learned, knowing NOW what I know are these things among others:
1. Learned helpnessness happens fast. It doesn't take much for a 6 foot high adult to intimidate, bully, repress etc. a little person into submission.
2. This behavior takes a long time to "unlearn".
3. A loving, kind presence in the child's life does wonders. Could be a sibling, the other parent, a grandparent, a teacher, a friend. Someone who makes them feel sane, and loved, and VALUED.
4. As long as the N is not prone to violence, they are pretty easily unhinged. Not by the child, mind you, but by another adult who can direct the process.
5. I wished that someone (mom?) had taken me away from that environment. I would have rather struggled more financially, sacrificed more, whatever it would have taken to not have the N in my life. I wished it then and I still wish it now. However, I also feel a certain gratitude for the learning experience, however painful.
Children are sponges. They are learning all the time. If you use moments to teach them, that will help so much. ("Daddy should not have spoken that way...etc." "People are responsible for their own actions - you are not to blame for Daddy's mood" ETC, ETC)
Kids Do need protection and someone to step in. Sometimes they will amaze you with their simple logic and empathy, and they do fine.
Dandylife
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Thank you Dandylife and everyone else who responded.
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Thanks Bean.
I always planned to be healthy and happy and busy as a mother. A person.
I know that's not my reality now but
Your reminder in this time of turmoil is a good thing.
I have to right my boat and create a life that's full and rich for my children. For myself.
This will be a process and take time. I should make peace with that reality.
I'll keep working toward it and do the best I can do to help my children overcome. That's what mothers do. What choice do I have? It's not perfect and it may not be enough, but there it is.
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It's an interesting thing to admit fear and weakness, doubt and shame.
I guess that's the place where we find important things:
A more real relationship with God.
Our true abilities and unexpected strengths.
Ourselves.
But I'll never get used to it, me thinks. It'll have to fade with time.
Especially the part where I make peace with letting go of the desire for justice. For outsiders to understand what's been going on.
In the end though my world will grow richer and N's world will draw in tighter and smaller till he's unable to sustain his false reality.
Then I'll see a different kind of justice and I hardly think there will be any joy when it arrives. Pity really.
I'm having a better day Bean.
Thanks for being you and sharing yourself. It helps.
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Get out. It is better for the child to have never known him at all.
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My advice is get out. I wish my parents would have divorced when I was little, instead my N-mother stayed "For the kids sake." One of my earliest memories is of her flying into a rage and smashing dishes in the kitchen after a fight with my father. She smashed every dish we owned, and then walked out. She offered no explanation or apology for her childish behavior. I hid in a closet and prayed that it would stop. I remember this very clearly. I don't remember much of my childhood, other than a sense of not being able to do anything right.
I think the most important thing if you do stay is to make sure to validate your kids feelings, thoughts and ideas. My mom brushed them off, and still does. Most of the time she makes me feel like a 10 year old. As she gets older, she gets more and more paranoid, and always assumes the worst. Kids need someone who believes in them, who can bolster their self-esteem and make them feel special. My brother did that for a while, but after he moved out, then I was alone.
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El:
El:
Believe me when I tell you that the best case scenario, in my opinion, is N disapearing and leaving us utterly alone and without support.
People look at me like I have 2 heads when I say anything remotely like that.
I'm having a hard time coming to grips with the APPARENT TRUTH THAT N'S EAT THEIR YOUNG FOR NO TANGIBLE GAIN!
How the hell do you explain it to people who know nothing about it if you can't believe it yourself?
<shaking head> Improbable.
It's like watching them smash out their own eyes and teeth
FOR NOTHING!
Damaging their children for no gain that makes any sense at all in the world!
Their trying to destroy their own legacy.
<shaking head>
Simply makes no sense and that's the thing.
It's the disordered thoughts of a disordered mind.
There is no making sense of it.
El, I hope you can find some comfort in the maternal nurturing personalities of this board. They're wise and invested in helping you.
This is a place that I can come to and find immediate understanding and acceptance.
No one has to qualify and convince here.
We know.
It's understood so you can explain away and work through your nightmare as the rest of us work through our own.
Your's is bad.
That's true.
We see it.
We see you.
Your feelings are real and you deserve to be sad and angry and confused.
Just don't let your parents continue to win.
I read a book about children overcoming terrible abusive circumstances. All kinds.
From your posts, I think you're one of those people and I'll be here rooting for and supporting you.
Tayana: I'm trying to get out. I couldn't explain how convoluted and "IMPROBABLE" my circumstances have become. Sometimes I think I may destroy myself in the single minded pursuit of that goal. GETTING OUT. My adrenal system is in overdrive right now. One of those awful times where the danger of being overcome by fear is close.
Eh, I'm cooking something I love, I don't remember starting it or doing it but there it is. Simmering and I don't want to taste it but it will be there later.
I'll feed myself and my mother and we'll feel nurtured and our bellies will be filled with something cooked with apparent care.
Mommy love.
It's the best I can do today, preparing this meal.
It's enough.
I think I'll vibrate with anxiety but I know I'll make it through this day and keep working towards making a better tomorrow.
Oh, ya. I also think about my N's heart spontaneously exploding but that energy doesn't seem to be very well spent, considering nothing comes of it.
I'll keep plugging away and trying to navigate the legal system, just like you.
Trying to just get out without too much more damage.
Trying to protect my young when I can't even protect myself, so far.
It's a process.
I'll keep working on it and I'll keep coming here and asking for help and offering what I've learned.
That helps as much as breaking down, being validated in that awful place, picking myself up and moving on again.
That's what we do here.
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Tayana: I'm trying to get out. I couldn't explain how convoluted and "IMPROBABLE" my circumstances have become. Sometimes I think I may destroy myself in the single minded pursuit of that goal. GETTING OUT. My adrenal system is in overdrive right now. One of those awful times where the danger of being overcome by fear is close.
Lighter, I know just how you feel. It's my first thought in the morning and the last thought before I go to bed. I just want to get away, get out, run away. I hate the feeling of being in hiding all the time around my nmom.
Good news is, looks like something might be moving on the legal front. Bad news is that it's a few weeks away. I might have to hold off renting anything until then. We'll see. I tried another place today.
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Well I certainly do believe you'll end up getting out. Even if you have to wait another couple of weeks, you'll get there.
I dread that chat with your parents for'ya too!
At least you aren't freaking out when you find yourself standing in front of an open window at night. Yes, that's something I do.
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I am married to a man that my therapist says is an N.
Yesterday, I had to discipline my 8 year old. She kept nagging me to go hiking with her and her sister, while I was on the phone. I finally gave her a writing assignment, which, being the little drama queen that she can be, she belly-ached about all night (it was 8 sentences saying "When Mom is busy, I will wait quietly.")
She had a fit over it during dinner and my husband said "tell you what? You can either do the writing or get 8 spankings."
Now, first of all, I don't see where MY discipline involved HIM in the first place. Second of all, I am not a firm believer in corporal punishment. Third, over my dead body will he EVER lay a hand on one of my children! He was an abused child himself and he has no feelings to know when his swats are too hard or too many, NOR DOES HE CARE!
My response. "I will NOT allow you to lay a hand on her." Him: "oh 8 swats with my hand won't kill her." Me: "this does not involve you. I do not trust you with disciplining the children. PERIOD!"
That ended things for a few moments and then he began going on and on about how his father did it and it didn't hurt him...blah blah blah. (his father also molested both his sisters, abused his brothers and possibly him)
I do NOT allow my husband to discipline the children. I did when my eldest was young, and I have lived to regret that to this day! AT one point, during a really hot day, he insisted we leave her in the car, when she was about maybe 4yrs old., so we could look at some yard sale things in a garage across a street. She began screaming in the car cause it was so hot. He walked across the street, yanked her out of the car, and slammed her up against the trunk and began pounding her. I will NEVER forget that and it horrifies me when I think of it. When I told my mother what happened, she told me "If I EVER hear that you let him lay a hand on those kids again, I WILL REPORT BOTH OF YOU AND YOU WILL LOSE THOSE GIRLS!" From that day on, I NEVER let him deal with discipline, and to this day he throws it in my face when the girls do something he doesn't approve of. He will say "SEE? You should have let me spank them when they were younger."
THere are times I have really pretty much HATED this man. He has so many emotional, physical problems, that it would blow your minds! I have given him over to God and I now work to take care of myself and my girls.
Thanks for listening.
~Laura
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Dear Laura,
Today,reading your post was like a cool drink of water. I thought- here is a "sisters' who understands. I am so sorry for what you are going through,. I am going through a similar thing. I was sitting here feeling so terribly alone and abandoned . Then, I just happened to read your post.
For me, I have felt alone for such a long time. I have felt alone having an N mother. My father told me that there was nothing wrong with her- that I was imagining it. I feel so alone in my marriage. I have an N husband and he has turned my younger son against me(the golden boy).
I just feel such a despair. Is this how life is for everyone?. You invest in people and they betray you. You are all alone.It is pain ,pain and more pain. Is this just the definition of life.?
I tried to survive an N mother. I tried to be really good to my kids. I got more and more afraid to go out of the house. Now, I am getting out little by little. My H trashes me because of this fear and tells other's that he has a terrible wife who won't do anything with him. Meanwhile, he abused me so much that I got more and more unable to get out of the house. It reminds me of my mother. They put you in the hole. then, when you are so far down, they complain that they hate you because of it. I just feel that I don;t have any family. Is this what life comes to after you try so hard to be good to other people- my M,H and my kids.?
I tried to have a discussion with my H. He is "trashing" me to people that I know. I told him to stop doing it. He blamed ME for getting down on HIM.
I should have known that it is totally stupid to try to get him to understand anything. It is as futile as my mother. I prayed about it a while back and got an answer.My answer was for me to do the best that I could, then if it was not good enough- let him walk away. He is always threatening me, anyway. So, I have my answer..
The Bible says that 'there is no temptation taken man that is not common to all( close paraphrase).
IOW, that we all go through the same thing. I would like to know if other's think that this is true for them.The worst thing that I do is think that other's do not go through the pain that I do and I feel so alone and hopeless.I think that I am judging myself by looking outside myself and this is getting me in to a a lot of trouble. Any opinions on any of this would be appreciated. Love Ami
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I think you're right that this is what you're doing, Ami:
I think that I am judging myself by looking outside myself
Nasty Ns gossip and trash...and the best healing is to stop caring.
If he maligns you, let him. Your work is to hold your head up, continue your own healing work, and when you encounter anyone he has said falsehoods to, just manage it in that present moment. (Which is not this one.)
It really doesn't matter what other people think of you. Even if they think false things they've been "fed" by this N.
Malice has a way of bubbling to the surface eventually. But you won't be around to witness your validation, necessarily, because you'll be too busy being happy and healthy and living a great new life with yourself and your new associates and friends (who've been validating you all along, because they got to know YOU--not "the other part of him".)
Hope that made sense, a little garbled!
hugs
Hops
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Thanks Hops. That was a cyber space hug. Love Ami
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I know my N is capable of terrible things. It hurts my head to think about him having our children by himself during visitation. I could control it pretty well when we were together but now? I'm told that that's one of the prices I pay for leaving, when I go. I'm very afraid for me and my children.
I go in and out of that reality. I don't really want it to be true and I can live with it for so long then have to think about something else and it fades only to return full force when I least expect it.
I'm so sorry your oldest daughter went through that terrible day in the car then was assaulted by her father. YOu and your mother stand up for the children now and that's a really good thing.
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Such great and true comments!
I understand about how N's put you in a hole and then hate you for being in the hole...all too well.
Today, my husband informed me that he rode his bike to his mother's house. I said "did you trash me all day?" (yeah, I know I shouldn't have set myself up, but at that point, I just didn't care cause I knew he did already, but I wanted to hear him admit it).
His response was "no." "we talked about how you are getting a new job and things like that." pause pause pause. Me: "I'm sure she had some things to say." Him: "and I'm not sayin what she said cause it will just cause a fight." Me: "good, cause I don't CARE what she says. My consolation is that all your cruel family will not be around much longer!" (they are much older than I am and they live to make my life a living he** without remorse for it!)
Tonight, he made a comment to my 8 yr old and when she tried to respond to it, he yelled "BE!" ( as in BE QUIET) and I yelled at HIM for yelling at her. I told him "you are not the ONLY one who gets to have a statement around here! how could you SCARE her like that!" him: "I didn't scare her" Me: "yes you DID! you screamed at her for commenting back to you. him: "Well I know she is going to go on and on and I want to hear the news!"
me: "you NARCISSIST" him: "that's right!"
UGH
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Arg, Reallyme:
Crazy crazy world N's create and I feel for us/you and the children. I'm still in shock over the fact that I made children with someone so void of empathy and emotion. I want to escape my reality. I HATE DEALING WITH THIS but I don't have any choices. I've got to go and it's going to leave marks. No way around it. I'm going to escape in sleep now. Must get up early anyway and get busy. Nite
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RM,
Poor little kid. "BE" must feel like "DO NOT BE!" when it's roared at you by a parent.
Mom defends her by attacking him, and then that escalates into a fight between Mom and Dad.
Poor kid. First she gets yelled at, then both her parents fight each other.
It must scare her and make her feel such pain.
:(
Hops
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Hops,
Actually, no, it didn't escalate into a fight. It ended up where my daughter heard me tell my husband (like a little child), that his behavior was NOT acceptable and that it scared her. I validated her, not scared her.
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Bravo, RM:
my daughter heard me tell my husband (like a little child), that his behavior was NOT acceptable and that it scared her. I validated her, not scared her.
Sorry my imagination took it too far.
(((((RM, little RM daughter)))))
Hops
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In my situation we did not even realize or understand that there was anything wrong. We kids rebelled but we were labeled the defectives and so the psychological burden was placed on us. I never realized that it was she who was Patient X in the whole scenario. I think the way to deal with Ns Is to have zero tolerance for their stuff!
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As a child of an N parent, you grow up so confused! No idea on what is wrong and wright. When your mother says something and later says that she never said it, when your mother takes your things and says that you must have forgotten them somewhere else, when your mother takes things from your house and then tells you "Do you remember when you gave me this as a gift?"
You grow up so confused, you grow up so confused.
When your mother blames you of almost about everything that happens around the family, when your mother accuses you fo things you have never done, you grow up so confused, you grow up so confused.
You grow up blind and deaf, producing sounds not recognized by others because you do not how to produce the regular sounds that others normally produce.
You grow up so confused, you grow up so confused.
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((((Lupita and Overcomer))))
Thanks for responding.
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Hi CB,
If it's not too painful...how did you actually leave?
I had thought he had left the farm but I might be confused.
I'm just curious so there's no need at all to tell the whole painful tale ifyou're not in the mood...
I just wanna post today.
love
Hops
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I'm okay...a little sad about Mom.
Picked her up from the hosp. today (it was dehydration, mainly...despite my and her morning companion's efforts to get her to drink more water)...
I had taken her to the doc last Tues. since she was not doing well. Her sleep time had about doubled, her color was bad, and her walking deteriorated to the point she was barely able to. She fell as I was trying to get her in the car, I wrenched my back breaking her fall so she'd ease to the driveway. No neighbors were home so after I ran to a couple houses I flagged down a City truck and the angel driver hopped out, scooped her up and gently put her in the car. After the doc saw her he said I should take her right to the hospt. Anyway, today I transferred her to the nursing home because she'd had a PT eval and the medical opinion is that at least right now, she needs 24-hour care. Hard to do, and her comments are hard to handle. It's just sad. I popped in twice. She's okay but wants to come home, and blames me. Then, at one point tonight (first time ever this has happened) she didn't quite recognize me, confused me with my daughter, and said, "Your mother insists on taking me to that nursing place." Kind of a blaming thing. I just looked and said, Mom, it's me, and you know...I brought you here on doctor's orders, not mine... Anyway, tough day.
Tonight a friend and I went to see Waitress. Very touching movie, though I was confused about the extra-martial stuff (at least on the man's part). No real motive except he was a little disoriented from being in a new town. But his wife clearly adored him. Anyway, there were great moments in that film... and I so got the ending, which felt like the exact way I felt when my child was born.
Thanks for asking, CB...I know all this stuff will change and do whatever it does. It's just an uncertainty period. I truly don't know if Ma will ever be home again because last time she was in PT, she worked so hard she did become strong again. But this year feels different, but I never know.
Anyway, I'm going to try to let the sadness come and go and take advantage of this peaceful interval at home to do more self-care, organizing, and work on my own business. That part, just for me, is a pure gift.
hugs
Hops
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Thanks, CB. I really do know.
The feeling's mutual.
I really appreciate your words.
love
Hops, etc
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Lupita:
I've a chilling tingle that ran up my spine and into the top of my head where it keeps circling.... thinking about the childhood you had to endure. Doubting your own reality. You said it with such clarity..... confusion.
These people are broken beyond repair. They can't do better and they'll never be whole or OK or glad to be alive. They'll always be living in fear and like rats and unable to do any better.
We, you, me.... can heal and do better. We can set boundaries and enforce them. We can love and nurture and protect the vulnerable in society.
I wish it was easier to identify these covert abusers, but it's just not. In the meantim thanks for posting your thoughts and trying to help me keep my own children out of harms way.
You're mother may have been an awful human being but, you turned out to be an amazing woman. Thanks for your input.
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CB and SS:
I'm out, but struggling to stay out. I think my N is a little more antisocial than N, but N just the same. It's a struggle and I don't have any "good" choices right now. My path seems to lead down but it can only go so far down before it heads back up again, I have to keep that in mind.
Nothing good nor bad, lasts forever. I'm certainly looking forward to raising my children as well as I can and all your words and experiences help me form a plan and keep moving in a positive direction. It's not fair but it's my path. I wish I understood why, sociopaths and N's are allowed to get away with so much. They're not obviouse but after their victims begin talking about it, you'd think more would be done to HELP the victims and not keep them silent. I do all the time.
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Lupita, after reading your post, I want to present it as the perfect example of what GASLIGHTING is.
Lupita shared: As a child of an N parent, you grow up so confused! No idea on what is wrong and wright. When your mother says something and later says that she never said it, when your mother takes your things and says that you must have forgotten them somewhere else, when your mother takes things from your house and then tells you "Do you remember when you gave me this as a gift?"
You grow up so confused, you grow up so confused.
When your mother blames you of almost about everything that happens around the family, when your mother accuses you fo things you have never done, you grow up so confused, you grow up so confused.
This is a cruel tactic used by N's against people. They try their best to make you feel crazy and insane.
There are some ways I've learned to deal with this one:
I might say "nope, I know I put it there, but if you want to insist that I didn't, well, that's YOUR REALITY, not mine."
I might just say "humph" and go do something else.
As far as being falsely accused, I've been heard to say "well, GOD saw what really happened and I'm just letting Him deal with this situation."
The idea with N-statements, is, you either stand up to them by using "wittyness" or you can try to "ignore" them. You can also try to do what is called "DEFLECTION"...when they accuse or try to trick ya...put it all back ON THEM somehow...MAKE THEM ACCOUNTABLE!
~Laura
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I need to learn how to use those techniques the next time I catch my soon-to-be ex gaslighting again.
Bones
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my soon-to-be ex
Congratulations and sympathy both at the same time, Bones. Wishing you strength, respite, peace, and good relationships to come.
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Wow Storm,
When you 'reviewed" Lupita's post,A big light went on in my head. My mother was an expert at this
This behavior really makes you so doubt your own ability to perceive reality..
It is such a "rape" of a person to make them doubt their own perceptions. It is really evil,isn't it?
Love Ami
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my soon-to-be ex
Congratulations and sympathy both at the same time, Bones. Wishing you strength, respite, peace, and good relationships to come.
Thanks, Stormy.
Bones