Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tayana on June 11, 2007, 04:57:17 PM
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I went to another apartment complex today. The apartments here are a little smaller and older, but still nice. I explained to the very nice clerk my situation. If I can give them a letter from my attorney and proof that I've disputed the fraudulent charges, they will rent to me. The nice thing about this place is that it has better amenities, an awesome indoor pool and everything. So, things are looking up. I won't say I have it until the lease is signed and I have the keys though.
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I am SOOOOOO happy for you. She couldn't keep a good man(woman) down. I have so much admiration for your strength and "get up and go" ! Love Ami
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good luck!
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Thanks Ami and Write. I don't want to get TOO excited, just in case, but I can't help it. I'm really excited. And some of the nightmare might be over. The court date to dismiss the judgement against me is in two weeks, so that will be taken care of too, then we just have to get this creditor to leave me alone, or whatever else the lawyer wants to do. I can't help making a list of things I will need to buy for my new home. The only drawback is that if it does go well and I get it, I'll have it sooner than I'd planned, so I won't be packed or ready to move at all. That will suck.
And I'm dreading the I'm moving out discussion. I have to give myself a few days to rehearse that in my head. I don't think it will go well. I can just imagine all sorts of wailing, door slamming, silent treatments, sniping, back biting, threats, etc. Probably similar to what I got the other morning. And no doubt, "you think you're so smart" at some point. I figure it could work out well. I could take off work a few days get the new place cleaned, our stuff packed, move the little things and move the big stuff over a weekend.
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You are doing so well- one step at a time----. I am so impressed. I have lost my ability to move forward in my own behalf. It must be so scary for you,but you are still going forward. It is impressive
A Big Hug Ami
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Thanks, Ami. You'll get there too. One step at a time. I've been terrified of doing this, and I'm still terrified. I'll probably wake up at 3 in the morning and won't be able to go back to sleep, but I'm going to do it. I don't think it's any scarier than some of the other things I've accomplished. I went away to school. I've changed jobs. I tackled some major projects at work. Those were all scary too. Of course, they all pale to having to tell my parents I found a place and I'm moving, even though there are a lot of positives to this.
They won't have to support me.
My dad can retire.
They can move to a smaller place
My son can go to a better school district.
Etc. I can list all sorts of positives, but they'll focus on all the negatives. *Takes a deep breath* I'll do it though. I think it's important that I do this. For me, and my son.
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SO impressed with your courage and determination Tayana.
Can you postpone telling them until a couple days before?
I realize it'll be obvious when you start packing...don't be afraid!
You are an ADULT. You're someone's mother, for godssake!
You do not need your parents' approval or permission to chose to live in your own place.
It's healthy, it's normal and you will learn so much from it. You'll become even stronger, as will your son.
You don't owe them a long explanation. Maybe it'd help to think of something simple and adult to say.
Nothing angry or apologetic either. They don't need to invade your emotions or play on your nerves.
Do you have a friend you can ask to come over and pack with you?
Having a "buffer" around can really help...
Hops
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Hops,
I'm going to put it off as long as possible. I'll just go finish the paperwork tomorrow and work on getting the documentation I need to get the place.
I know it's normal and healthy to do this. I think I'll just say, "I found a place, and I'm moving." And that's the end of that, and then when the wailing and screaming starts, I'll just walk away. They'll get used to it eventually.
I don't really have a friend that could help pack, or I do, but I don't know that she'd be available. I won't consider it "my" place until I sign the lease though.
And if this one falls through, I know I should be able to rent in a couple of weeks when the court, hopefully, dismisses the judgment against me.
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Oh oh oh Hops! Yes, tayana shouldn't feel guilty or icky for moving. This shouldn't be an occassion where wailing and emotional terrorism rule.
She is an adult and she has the right to live wherever she chooses. It hadn't occurred to me to think of it that way. I'm ashamed to say I've been dreading the conversation with her parents too, lol.
I also think having a friend available as much as possible to act as a buffer is better than a great idea.
Tayana: Maybe you'd do better trying to pack and move over the weekend and not take off from work? Then you could take that money and pay someone to come move the big things for you during that same weekend. The quicker you can pack and go the better, IMO. That way, you have other people around still AND you don't hurt yourself trying to move the stuff yourself.
I realldy dread your parent's behavior while you're packing. Esp where it concerns your son. Good luck on getting that apartment. If it's meant to be, it'll happen: )
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Hey Lighter, thanks for chiming in. If I get it, I get possession in the middle of the week, so I wouldn't be moving until the weekend anyway. And it'll take time to get a truck, etc.
I don't dream my father's behavior, as much as I do that woman's. She'll say all sorts of nasty stuff to change my mind, but once I sign the lease and pay the deposit and rent, there's nothing she can do, short of me breaching my contract. I don't intend to do that, unlike her, I'm actually responsible with my money, and I know that when you sign a contract, it has to be honored.
I've my fingers and toes and everything crossed.
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Congratulations, Tayana! You're on your way. I'm excited for you. I found moving into my apartment immensely satifying and freeing.
Can your son stay with someone while you pack and all? So your mom can't get him off by himself and make your day that much harder?
Much love to you, Tayana. Let us know how things progress,
CB
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CB,
I don't think it'll take that long to pack, really. We can probably do it on a weekend, so I can be a buffer. We may not get everything at once, but we can get some things.
She will deny ever saying a word to him, like she did the last time I confronted him. But who do I believe, a woman who's lied to me most of my life, or my son who doesn't really know how to lie, and can't lie without getting caught.
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Tayana,
Great news. They are going to rant and rave no matter what you do. I find a good thing to do when I want to get out of my head from an N is to talk to myself when I am doing the chore e.g. packing.. I am putting this ... in the box so that I can move to my new home........ a mantra........ let the accusations, abuse fade into background noise. It is possible to do I have done it.
You do not owe them an explanation or any discussion if you choose not to. You are an adult who is making an adult choice and taking care of your son.
Well done girl,
axa
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Tayana
This is really great news. I'll keep my fingers crossed. I really hope you get it. Just look at your mom like she is this giant baby having a tantrum to get her way. Roll your eyes and say God give me the strength till she gets so tired she gives up hearing herself from no reaction. Then think few more days till I am in my own place, just a little bit longer. I'm getting there not much longer now. They really do react like children so sometimes treat them like they are. I hope it's not to bad for you Tay.
Can't wait till the final answer. Let us know. Good Luck
Love
Deb
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Axa,
I know they'll rant and rave, and give me the "You think you're so smart" speech. I hate those words. "You think you're so smart." and then a long diatribe of whatever it is that I'm doing that's offensive.
I just sort of tune all that out anymore. I can't take it with a grain of salt, but I can't tune it out.
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Deb,
I was thinking the other day . . .
Why am I afraid of this woman? And when I tried to think about why, all I could think about is the unending stream of criticism and off the wall comments she's made to me. I was afraid of her disapproval, not her. I've certainly done enough things that she's not approved of, from my job choices to my major at school. I've let her talk me out of things I enjoyed doing, like playing in an orchestra, which I really miss. I've let her talk me out of jobs, out of career choices. I've let her counsel me about what to do in various situations, and that's always wrong. I let her talk me into putting my son in a school I had real misgivings about, but I did it, and it was a disaster. When I thought about all of that, suddenly she wasn't so scary anymore, in fact she seemed a little small and weak. And then when I found about all of the court proceedings she's kept from me, I just couldn't stay in that place and look at her and pretend that everything was okay. I was already wanting to leave. I just needed that extra little push to make it happen, because if she did this to me, I have to wonder what else she's done, who else she's talked to, what else she's covered up. I can't trust her, and my ability to trust wasn't that good before I found out about all of this.
Like I told my dad, I'm not going to stay there and be manipulated because she needs a whipping post. She sits around and feels sorry for herself and she wants everyone else to feel sorry for her too. I told her that one time when she'd stopped speaking to me for something stupid, oddly enough, she started speaking to me again almost immediately. I never understood, but I knew all she was fishing for was sympathy. She wants my family to feel sorry for her because she has medical conditions. She'll do nothing to alleviate those conditions. She won't go to a different doctor, even though everyone has told her to. I'm quite certain she's severely depressed. Her doctor just looked at her and said, "you're depressed." She has this whole paranoia about anything that's said because she thinks everyone is talking about her. I am so tired of it. I can't remember the last time I really enjoyed a holiday, except perhaps Thanksgiving last year, when I got to do the cooking and everything. That was one of the better ones. I can't remember when I did anything without feeling guilty. I just don't want to do it anymore.
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"You think you're so smart !" :x
"That's right. I'm smart, I'm strong, I learn all the time. I'm also a good mother. Excuse me, I've got to move this box, no time to talk...busy-busy"
:D
Hops
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"You think you're so smart !" :x
"That's right. I'm smart, I'm strong, I learn all the time. I'm also a good mother. Excuse me, I've got to move this box, no time to talk...busy-busy"
:D
Hops
Hee
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That's funny, Hops.
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Tayana,
I think we get conditioned not even knowing we have especially for kids with an N parent. So much more time to work you from very little. The weak, the little ones, the vulnerable are so easy their target to form and shape minds. Mold them into what they need them to be. Or I should say make you think what they want you to think they are. They do it so good and so skillfull that when you start to see different people, different ideas, different ways of life you wonder if their life is the abnormal one. Then you see that you have been given bad advice, your way of living is not the right way. You start to move towards the normal life. You resist, you complain, you take some control, you question and you confront them. Whoa!! oh no, they lose (control grounds) which sets them into a panic and watch out!!!!! They will use every trick up their sleeve and be able to switch their faces in a blink of an eye. They count on confusing the hell out of you so they can gain back control. When it does not work they resort to Guilt and Shame. After they have accomplished making us feel guilt and shame we are vulnerable and feel *bad* we may not feel wrong but we feel *bad* then we want approval that we are good people we do good things. Did you ever hear yourself saying, I'm not doing this to hurt you. I don't want to hurt your feelings that's not what I mean to do.
I mean really, who gives a shit, we are the ones who got hurt and yes we are the ones apologizing and asking for approval of it. That is what they count on. That is how they conditioned us. When you start to break away and no going back you are leaving them with their tactics that ( will not work on you anymore) that is when you see thee biggest DRAMA and Anger episode you will ever see. They will go to anyone who cares to listen and all you can think is God Help Them! they know not what they are dealing with for if they did they would never give them the time of day.
Sometimes it's really hard to let go but if you do not you will go down with them. They are rather sad people when you really think about it but I am not responsible for their life or happiness. God knows I gave up mine while I was married thinking that you become responsible for the other when they are not being responsible for their own actions. Whats that saying, Family takes care of family, somewhere in my head I guess I thought I was obligated at any cost because afterall we are family. Then I woke up!
Deb
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Deb,
I understand exactly what you just said. I have always felt guilty about going against my "family's wishes" even though what they wanted from me didn't feel right. I was brought up to believe you stuck with your family no matter what, but when I really needed my "family," when I was so depressed I was considering suicide, they weren't there. I'm still angry about that. Everytime I consider a decision, like moving, I get the whole, "you're only doing this to hurt me speech." When my mom found out I was thinking about moving she says, "I know you're only doing this to hurt me." And that wasn't it at all. I was doing it for me, and for my son, so he could go to a better school and get some services. I was doing it because I have this horrible fear of her having a heart attack while she's watching my son and he'll be with her all alone and panic. I was doing it because I needed my own space. I was doing it because I'm spending a fortune driving back and forth to work, and I'm tired of driving. According to her though, I'm only moving to hurt her.
I'm reminded of the first time I took my son on vacation and she told me she would be in the hospital when I got back. She wasn't, and it was the most relaxing trip of my life. Of course she didn't talk to me for weeks, at least until my aunt and uncle came to visit and she had to pretend we were the happiest family in the world. Evidently, my feelings just don't matter.
I was thinking this morning while I was driving in to work that I could forgive her for taking out the credit cards and doing what she did if she was just remorseful about it. But she wasn't. She denied that is was even her card, if that was the case, then why go to such great lengths to hide all evidence of it. She wasn't remorseful at all, and then she whimpered and begged and is terrified I'll tell my father. She's so afraid everyone is going to abandon her that she does everything in her power to make certain we can't leave.
She is a very sad person, Deb, and I do pity her. I'm just tired of being responsible for her health and well-being.
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Tayana,
Several times in this thread you've mentioned 'I'm going to get the 'you think you're so smart' criticism.
When my Nmum wanted to be sarcastic, she used to say to me 'You're just like your father! (to her, the biggest criticism there is!)
I eventually hit on the right response:
'Thank you!'
It stopped her dead in her tracks.
Perhaps you could do the same with 'You think you're so smart!'
'Yes, I do - thank you for reminding me!'
It IS such a smart decision, and a normal, adult one at that. *Normal* parents bring up their children to leave them one day, so what's her problem?
You deserve to have peace and quiet in your own place, just you and your son.
Janet
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Janet,
I like that idea. I think I'll do that.
I don't know what her problem is. I really don't. Living with them was always meant to be temporary, not permanent, but she seems to think she'll always have me and my son "to take care of." She won't take care of herself, but she insists on taking care of everyone else. She will actually fuss at me for ironing my own clothes, or washing my own laundry, that sort of thing.
I really think it has less to do with me, and far more to do with my son. I think my son is like her third chance to get things right, even though she routinely complains about his behavior, about how forgetful and lazy he is, etc. I won't listen to anymore of that. I just won't.
I'm sure she'll probably get over the whole moving thing. I'm still trying to decide if I should just get the announcement over with at our get together on Sunday. I really think it would be the smart thing to do, at least then there's witnesses to one of her rages.
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If you tell her in front of others, she might be all sweetness and light at the time, but come back at you afterwards, when there's only the two of you. Appearance is all, with N's, after all.
Just a thought.
Janet
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That's true too. I'll think about it. I'm still waiting for my attorney to call so I can get a letter from him, but as far as the property is concerned, this place is mine.
I'm just going to be moving sooner than I'd planned.
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Dear Tayana,
What I hear in you is an anger. It is good(IMO). It is a righteous anger. I hear more of an anger than a hoplelessness and a "giving up".
Anger is the emotion that we should have so we are not violated. It is a God given emotion that is supposed to protect us. N mother's robbed us of this vital emotion so that we would never have the right response to them(which was anger).They were destroying us but we never had the corresponding anger( I didn't anyway)
I am coming to this conclusion by reading your posts and it seems right.
The last thing that they want us to have is a conscious respect for our own emotions. In that way, we can be tossed and turned by them to do what they want with weak victims.
Your anger will give you energy- which you need in order to go forward with this move Love Ami
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Dear Ami,
I am angry. I am very angry. I've been angry for a long, long time, much longer than I've been on this board.
I'm angry because my mother tried to ruin my credit and feels absolutely no remorse.
I'm angry because she has used my son to try to control my actions.
I'm angry because instead of helping me develop confidence, I'm 33 and still living with her like a loser.
I'm angry because I was denied to opportunities to do normal, childhood things, and she has tried to do the same to my son by isolating him.
I'm angry because all my life I've heard how disappointed she is in me. She never used that word, but I knew that was what she meant.
I'm angry because she didn't love me unless I was doing what she wanted, how she wanted it.
I'm angry because she never listened to me or let me have an opinion about anything.
I'm angry because she made me feel worthless, unattractive, and unlovable. She told me I was selfish and cold and lacking any sort of passion. I believed those things until my best friend told me I wasn't any of those, that I couldn't be a writer and not have passion.
All I ever wanted was to feel loved, and I never have.
Sorry that was such a long list, but I do feel better now, even if it did make me cry.
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Aww, Tayana.
((((((((((((((((((((Tayana)))))))))))))))))))
You are starting to stop believing all that junk...
A late start on happiness is not too late!!
Don't give your power away, ever again.
You can take it back now.
It's YOUR power, to learn how to be happy.
You're making a great start.
Hops
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Dear Tayana,
Don't be sorry. We are about "voice" here. Our voice was "stopped". We were not allowed to be angry. That was the "worst" emotion. It was dangerous to them , I think.
Tayana, anger is healthy. Depression and self hatred is not. Give voice and respect to your anger.
You have earned every bit of it. You did not have the 'right" to be angry for a lifetime(if you are like me). The anger went underground in to sickness and despair.
Tayana, you are making so much progress. You are an inspiration to all who read your story. We are rooting for you, Tayana Love Ami
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Tayana,
The first thing I want to say is GOOD FOR YOU.
And now I want to add that my parents have done this to me since college. I left because I didn't care about them. But every time I went to see them, they started picking on me immediately. Many times I have told them I would just leave if they didn't stop (I meant it and they calmed down and backed off, but the "vacations" always sucked and took everything out of me.
The fact is, they don't like me. So anything I like, they don't. And if I start to like something they do, than they don't like that anymore. I can never be liked by them. I am always "difficult" (no one else in my life feels this way). You will NEVER be able to please her and you are so right - you will be her whipping girl forever - IF you don't make a change.
So I am praying that you get the apartment and move out pronto!!!!!! And I am sending love and strength.
Love, Beth
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Thanks Hops and Ami. That made me cry all over again. I don't really think of myself as an inspiration, Ami. I don't see anything that special in what I'm doing. i'm just doing the best I can. I was having my nightly talk with God and praying this was going to turn out all right, and I just felt a sense of peace and assurance that everything was going to be fine.. I hope so. I really do.
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Gratitude,
Thanks so much! I'm really excited right now. I told my dad and my brother I'm moving, and that I would rent a truck and that I wanted to move the last weekend of this month. I had plans for the previous weekend. I told my dad I wasn't trying to be a *itch, but I needed space. Well those weren't my exact words, but I did say I needed space from her. I told him what my lawyer had said about the court date. I'll make sure I can take off a few days after we move so that my son can get settled in the new place.
Right now my plan is to tell my mom in a few days, so that I can work on my son and get him pumped up about the idea. Even though according to my mom I'm taking him out of a "stable home environment," and this is going to be terrible for him. I have decided that I will tell her the reasons for moving, unrelated to her, and I won't accept any abuse from her. If she starts, I'm going to walk away. If she continues, my son, my dog and I go to a hotel for the night. I refuse to be verbally abused, and I refuse to be emotionally manipulated.
I know she won't see it like this, but this is really a good thing. Who knows, I might actually be closer to my family, probably not my mom, but maybe everyone else. My brother doesn't come around because of her.
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Actually, Tayana, I do a lot better with my family when far away from them. We get along a lot better this way - even with my mother. We were able to get along somewhat from a distance. Does your dad know about your mom? How do you deal with your dad? I'd love to hear more.
Love, Beth
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My dad and I get along fine and always have. My dad is great. He offered money if I needed it for the move, which I don't. My dad is sort of the calm in the storm. He doesn't get flustered easily. He does know about the credit card fraud, and he says he understands my need for space. He just doesn't stand up to my mother, nor has he protected me from her abuse. My dad is at least rational and thinks fairly normally. I just don't understand why he puts up with her, other than she would never be able to live on her own.
I think I'll do better with my family when I can leave them behind. I did okay with them when I was in college and only visited. I think I'll be better off when I can go home to my place.
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Tayana,
I spent 40 years being afraid of my mother. It was that constant stream of abuse that had me beat down so much I was rigid around her. When she was dying I went to the hospital to sit with her. She had had a stroke and could not speak and for the first time in my life I was not afraid of her. Her words had devestated me so much that they terrified me. It was so strange looking at her in the hospital bed. She was a tiny frail woman. I never saw her before this time, never had the courage to look beyond those terrible words.
axa
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Axa,
I have been afraid of her my whole llife, really afraid. And it's only been in the last year or so that my fear hasn't controlled me. I just see her as a very small woman now, a small, petty woman, who's very sad and miserable and wants everyone around her to feel the same. I think one of the most telling things is that my son, who's 10, is also scared of her. Just the other night, I asked him to take his dog out and just put on his sandals. My mom hated that I bought the sandals for him, and so he put them on and says, "If Grandma sees, she's going to be SO mad." I told him it was all right just to take the dog out.
Last night he told me that when I was homeschooling, my mom used to grab his hair and pull it when he wasn't paying attention. I also know she used to take his books and scribble all over the pages when he didn't do things perfectly. She would make him rewrite things over and over, even though he has a writing disability that makes writing difficult. These things are abuse. I can't label them as anything else. He told me he's always afraid she will hit him when she gets mad. It's just wrong, and I would rather send him to a dozen camps that have that woman in charge of him again.
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Dear Tayana,
I love your quote so much. I did not realize that your M was that bad. It is abuse. It really is. You are doing the right thing to get away.
The other night,on one of your posts, you said that you prayed and got a peace and an assurance. I am so happy for you. If you get a chance read Frederick Douglass' book. He got out of slavery the way that you are getting out of another kind of slavery.
You go girl.You are doing so very well. !!!! Love Ami
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Ami,
Thanks so much! I have read parts of Frederick Douglass's book. I was an English major in college, and it was required reading. I'll have to look for it and read it again. I must confess I don't really remember it. :)
That's my favorite quote. Eleanor Roosevelt has so many good quotes. She has another one that I love, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Ami, I didn't know my mom had done some of these things either until my son told me last night. I was telling him about moving, and he was so mature about it, even excited. He's a little sad and a little nervous, but I told him I was too and that was okay. I told him that if he wanted to stay with Grandma for some of the summer, and if she was willing to do it, he could. I also told him Grandma was going to be very angry with me for a while. Homeschooling, while in one sense was a wonderful experience, and I totally support the idea, was a terrible mistake. It gave my mom far too much control over my son and let her think she could get involved in his education.
I think we're going to be just fine. I'm clinging to that peace and reassurance I found the other night.
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Dear Tayana-mama,
GOOD FOR YOU!
:D :D :D :D :D
(And good for your sweet son.)
hugs,
Hops
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Thanks Hops! I'm feeling really good this week. I might not rant at my T when I see him Monday. Of course, I still have to tell the nmom I'm moving.