Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tayana on June 14, 2007, 10:02:43 AM
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I didn't sleep well last night. There's a part of me that wants the whole confrontation with my mom over and done with. I just want to say those two words, "I'm moving." and forget all about it. Last night, I kept torturing myself with what would happen after I moved, and today, I'm feeling pretty lousy.
I stopped to pick up the last of the documentation I needed for my apt. last night. Today is the last day I have to back out of the lease agreement without penalty. I was so excited yesterday. I even bought something for my new home when I went to get a card yesterday. Today, I feel a little like I"ve been punched in the gut.
I've been visualizing what life in my new home will be like, but now I"m panicked. There's a few weeks in the summer where there are no camps, so I don't know what I will do with my son. I'm sure my mom will refuse to watch him. The old "you made your bed now you lie in it," line. I've come up with some ideas, but I still feel sick over the whole thing.
I kept hearing the things she would say to me, and I kept trying to rehearse the non-reactive, non-defensive answers I'd planned, but they didn't work. It kept degenerating into, "This is your fault, Mom. I'm moving because of you, because I can't trust you. You betrayed my trust, and now I have to wonder what else you lied about. I have to wonder what else you've done and said to my kid, because he's been very forthcoming lately about the things you've said and did." I kept imagining that my mother would either try to kill herself, or else she would sit around and mope and feel sorry for herself. I kept hearing my dad say, "You're killing your mother." And I think she'll do that. I kept telling myself, "You are not responsible for her. What she chooses to do is not your fault? If she gets a gun and shoots herself, you didn't kill her." I kept thinking, "She should have some other purpose in live besides controlling you and your child."
Talking with my brother the other night was a surprising help, because he understood. He told me I had to do what's best for my son, and this is what's best for my son. I know that. I know this is a good thing, but I don't understand why I feel so lousy over it. I just keep telling myself you aren't responsible for her. I figure if I tell myself enough I might believe it. Funny though, so far I haven't.
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Tayana,
YOUR SON COMES FIRST.
It's a deep universal imperative. You are magically wired to love your son so much that you would do anything to protect him and give him the best environment possible. He's already got challenges with his Asperger's.
HE DOES NOT NEED OVEREXPOSURE TO A TOXIC DISHONEST MANIPULATIVE NARCISSISTIC GRANDMOTHER.
Sorry for the shouting but I exposed my D to an Nish stepfather and my Nish mother for years and it damaged her.
You have this chance to use the maturity in you that's taken you this far in your plans.
Also: let it be okay that it is your mature mind that has made this decision and will follow through. Your emotions will come and go and they may include waves of guilt or uncertainty and that's okay. YOUR EMOTIONS DON'T HAVE TO DECIDE, because they're conflicted. It's your clear mother-mind that made the decision.
And your clear mother-mind is intelligent and wise and on the side of being a protective, loving, parent to your son.
courage, this transition will pass and you will know, both mind and feelings, that you were a mother first, a guilty daughter second -- and that's the correct order!
hugs
Hops
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And that's just it, isn't it? N's cause so much upset and fear that you dread doing something healthy and normal bc the consequenses of going against them have been so traumatic in the past, that you're practically paralyzed with ominouse forboding.
I don't even think they plan it that way. I think it's a lucky byproduct of their relentlessly pushing their agenda with no thought for anything but immediate self gratification on their part.
it's what they do.
I think once you get out you'll breath a breath of releif. You're in a great position to get out cleanly and limit contact if she's bezerko, which she probably will be. If not sooner, then you can expect it later. It's coming.
A little distance will help, I promise.
Don't let her continue to keep you in chains tayana. That's just so wrong and she'll keep sabotaging you at every turn. Haven't you got enough of that to undo yet?
Buck up and be a soldier. I dread that confrontation for you too. It will come and go, however so get it into perspective. Write about it and explore your feelings about it so you can be grounded when it happens and feel confident in your feelings when she begins pulling her N hoo doo on you. It is confusing but you need to work through the confusion and be the best PARENT you can be. That's your job now. Not ducking out of uncomfortable positions, like dealing with your mother's irrational responses.
Put on an imaginary helmet that keeps out her words and keep moving, dear. You'll be fine once your out.
((tayana))
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I also want to add that you've found a way getting a place to live. You'll find a way to deal with getting your son care for those weeks during the summer too. Is there another mother that he can stay with? All kids are going to be bored out of their heads and another mother, with a boy your son get's along well with, may be glad to take your son and you can offer to pay her or take her son at times she needs help with sitting. Maybe a combination or you could ask a few moms, who's son's will be bored out of their heads too and looking for some way to keep them occupied. Line it up and make it happen.
Having a playmate around can make things easier when schools out.
I'm just sayin. Ask and see what happens. Just like with the housing problems. You can do this.
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Hops, Lighter, I made this post just so I could get a kick in the seat. I had a friend call me last night out of the blue as I was driving home. I was so surprised, and it was so nice.
I even called to see if I can move my scheduled appt. with my T up so that I can talk to him before I tell her. I think I might need the therapy before that.
HE DOES NOT NEED OVEREXPOSURE TO A TOXIC DISHONEST MANIPULATIVE NARCISSISTIC GRANDMOTHER.
Ironically, this is the one thing that keeps me moving forward. I don't want her to do to my son what she did to me. And if that means she never speaks to me again, I guess that's how it will be. It'll be rough for my son, because he doesn't understand what's going on, and I don't know how to explain.
Lighter, I don't know too many moms right now. I plan to rectify this in the future. I'd really like to meet some other single parents. Moms and Dads and maybe get a playgroup going. I think that would be fun, and we could co-op together. Part of my mother's "damage" is to keep us very isolated. We live in a very rural area and we have no neighbors. Nice in one sense, but not so good in another.
And that's just it, isn't it? N's cause so much upset and fear that you dread doing something healthy and normal bc the consequenses of going against them have been so traumatic in the past, that you're practically paralyzed with ominouse forboding.
This is it. I dread doing normal things. I'm trying to decide, once the rage is past, if my mother is just going to wash her hands of us or if she's going to pull the crap she pulled when I did live on my own--calling all hours, calling my boss, etc to check on me. Basically, stalking me. I suppose I'll deal with that when it happens. The police are going to be right next door, maybe I can ask for a permanent guard.
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Tayana,
When your father says this is going to kill her. I don't think he means she is going to fall over and die. This is going to kill her that she has lost control and who is going to get the brunt of things Tayana? Dad!! Dad is still there. You and your son has made an escape and her eyes are going to turn to your father *full time now*. God help him but this is his choice.
I think he is dreading your move and the dramatics as much as you knowing he is left with her alone and the number *one* yak yak yak, they were mean to me, I'm going to die, She did this, they did that, OMG and he knows it will just be him and rant-a-rama!!
Your a good Mom Tayana. You'll be OK.
Love
Deb
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Am, You know what? I think you're right. I think hoping she will wash her hands of me is almost wishful thinking. I don't think she will. I think she'll be a right royal pest, personally. I think it will be just like it was when I was at school, only worse.
Deb, my dad has never actually said that to me. That's my overactive imagination playing out various scenarios. I had this vision of her sitting around moping and him telling me that. BUt still, he's dreading the dramatics, I know he is.
Your a good Mom Tayana. You'll be OK.
You know what? No one has ever said that to me. You don't know how much that means. I asked my son once if he thought I was a good mom, and he said yes, but I think he's biased. My parents just criticize my parenting skills. It has long been my goal to nurture my son's creative, free spirited nature. The world needs people like that, and I've managed so far.
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This will be long sorry
When you say that your F says that it will "kill" her,it shows(me,anyway) that he is a co conspirator.
I was thinking of all these people telling their stories and being "shocked" when people say that it is abusive.
I am guilty of being shocked that my life is so bad. However, I can see your M and it IS abusive. She is really bad and really demeaning. It is THAT bad.
I am telling you because I really need people to tell me or I will go back in to,"Maybe,it is not THAT bad." Then, we don't have to go forward
Am, this really struck me. About a week before I found out what my mom had done to my credit, with the lawsuit and everything. Something, I can't remember what, maybe she was yelling at my son, made me think I can't do this anymore, so I wrote the following.
I sometimes toyed with the idea that my mom was abusive, and I think I even said something to her once. She told me I didn't know how good I had it, that I hadn't been beaten or burned or anything like that. I wasn't abused. I let myself believe that for many years. There was a point when I had to say, "I don't think this is the way parents are supposed to be." And there were times when I kept saying, "I wish my parents would . . ." I still look at my life and wonder is this really abuse? I know it is, it's psychological abuse. I understood this ten years ago when I was pregnant and my mom was making me feel guilty for a mistake. I just chose to ignore it for a little while. I almost wish she would have beat me, at least then, the scars would be outside where people could see and understand, instead of on the inside where no one can see, and not many people see past my mother's superficiality to see the darkness lurking underneath it all.
My mother for many years, even until after I was well into my teens, chose my clothes, my friends, my food and everything. My hobbies were denigrated. I was screamed at for wanting any sort of independence. I was allowed no privacy. She would come into my room and go through my things whenever she pleased. She denied it when confronted, but I knew she had been in my things. I could tell from he way she would stop speaking to me for weeks at a time.
We moved to a community outside of St. Louis when I was 12. My mom decided she was going back to work not long after we moved here. She didn't want to be stuck at home alone in the country all day. Because she had to work nights and weekends, I was expected to take on more responsibility around the house. At 12, I was at an age where I wanted to assert some independence, instead I had to grow up. Responsibility around the house included most of the housekeeping duties. My mom worked nights and weekends mostly, so I came home from school and was alone until my dad came home. On the nights she worked, I was expected to cook dinner, clean up the mess, clean up the house, and still do all of my homework and get straight A's. I resented it. I resented that she spent less and less time at home, and I was doing more and more of the work. I cleaned the kitchen, the bathroom, vacuumed, kept my room clean, dusted the whole house . . . plus the cooking when she was gone. It was too much for a 12 year old, and worst of all, I did it for $5 a week. I didn't matter anymore, and so I wrote about how I felt in a diary, calling my mom a bitch because of the way she treated me. She found the diary. She never said she did. She never talked about what she found. But she didn't speak to me, with no explanation, for over two weeks.
I was only twelve. I wasn't ready for that sort of responsibility. Worst of all, my dad let her do it. His advice to me has always been, just take it with a grain of salt.
I remember being slapped once for not organizing my closet the way she wanted.
I remember being screamed at for wanting to give the dog a bath outside.
I remember feeling ashamed and wanting to fall into one of my books and vanish.
I remember hating myself all the time.
I remember thinking I was the worst child in all the world, so instead of talking about the issue. I tried harder to please her, did more, did it better. It never worked.
I remember being told not to run to my dad after she had screamed at me.
I remember her telling me I could ask her about anything, and when I did ask, she was offended by my question.
I remember asking her at 15 what she would do if I was gay. She said she'd love me anyway. I didn’t believe her.
I went to school out of state as far from home as I could safely get. I wanted away from them. I wanted to be on my own. I turned down a full scholarship at another college closer to home, a very wise move, and instead moved to Decatur, IL. I loved college. My parents had never allowed me to do anything on my own. I wasn't allowed to date, but I wasn't really interested either. I had a car accident when I first got my permit, and I was so scared, and my parents' reaction so bad, that I refused to drive. I had been kept isolated. I felt alone. I felt unloved. I felt pressured. I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me.
In many ways, going to college was a great thing. I did get some real confidence and self esteem, but I didn't feel as though I belonged anywhere. I had no social life. I didn't really have friends, and I didn't know how to make any. There was a dark side to my college experience that most people didn't know about.
My mom called almost every night, and if I didn't answer, she would continue calling until I did.
She once called my dean when I expressed frustration about the long lines during registration. I was called to the dean's office.
She almost didn't pay my tuition my freshman year. She forgot. When I called in a panic, she told me it had been taken care of. She bought me a $3000 oboe to make up for it.
I was berated for not getting good enough grades, even though I somehow managed to maintain a 3.5 GPA and stay on the Dean's List all through school.
She threatened to come and get me once if I didn't call her back. She'd called when I was at work. I'd ended up working a double shift because someone didn't show up. I didn't get home until one in the morning. I'd decided to call in the morning.
She screamed at my roommate once when she wouldn't let her talk to me immediately because she was on the other line.
She told me that I acted like I was better than them because I had an education.
I suffered from severe depression all through school. I was an introvert by nature, and my bid for independence wasn't working. It would get worse.
My sophomore year, I called home on Mother's Day. No one would talk to me. They didn't want me to know that the bank had foreclosed on our house. They didn't want to upset me. No, they were just going to let me come home and discover that I had no home. That was the first time my mom threatened suicide. I went home for the summer three weeks later. I stayed with my brother and slept on the floor.
She stalked me all through my senior year. Calling my work, the dean's office, a professor. She threatened to take my truck away, even though I'd bought it. I was too young to know she couldn't have done any of that. I was an adult. I tried to move to Indiana to get away from them, but I was pregnant. The father wanted nothing to do with the baby. I ended up going home when my money ran out and I still didn't have a job. It was going to be temporary.
I finally got on my feet when my son was about three. I paid off most of my debts. I'd gotten a good job and had some money in the bank. I was starting to look at being on my own again. When I said something about it, my mom maxxed out my credit cards. She also taken out other cards in my name and maxxed those out as well. I was stuck paying off the debts, and my credit was ruined.
My son is 10 now. I'm still stuck at home with her. In the past three years, I have paid off my debts and gotten my credit cleaned up. I'm going to try another bid for freedom. I'm dreading it. I should be excited. I should be able to share this excitement with my family, but I don't dare say a word, or something else will happen to sabotage it.
In the last ten years, my son was diagnosed with learning disabilities and Asperger's Syndrome. He's a challenging child. I recognize some of his traits in me.
I currently walk on egg shells around my mother and try to avoid her as much as possible. A simple question can set her off. I'm afraid of her, afraid of what she'll do when I leave, and I hate it.
In the last ten years, I've accepted what I asked my mom about when I was 15. I'm lesbian. I'm afraid of her finding out, and amazed she doesn't already know. It causes a lot of stress hiding. I want to tell my son, desperately before homophobia becomes ingrained, but I can't risk this living at home.
I have a secret bank account. Emergency money. It has now become escape money.
I have been controlled all my life, mostly through fear. I've never had the things I really wanted, my parents' love and support. I was never supported. I was a trophy, a prize to show off. Examples of this that have happened recently abound. My mom has decided I'm going to become a member of her church. I don't attend regularly, and don't want to be a member. The Methodists aren't necessarily gay friendly. I know, I wrote their main office and asked. She's decided she will find us a house, and I will move with them, only I get no say as to the location of the house or what kind. At my previous job, she called my boss and complained about my working conditions, thereby destroying any negotiating power I might have had.
I CANNOT DO THIS ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is my bid for freedom, and it's going to work this time d*****. Somehow, it's going to work.
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Hi Tayana,
Once you get the move done, and your son settled, and stop feeling the constant tension of That Woman looming over you...I think you need a loving, supportive community OF YOUR OWN. Here's one place (my church) to try:
http://www.uua.org/visitors/justicediversity/6252.shtml
Sheesh. You are a very impressive woman and you have a whole lotta life ahead. Don't think for a moment that this tough transition is the end of you. Au contraire, it's more like the beginning.
(((((((((Tayana, just as She am)))))))
Hops
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Thanks Hops. I had a bit of a cry in the shower tonight, and another talk with God. I am convinced this is going to be a good thing, even if no one else thinks that yet.
I had a very good friend tell me the other day, "Don't let your mom hurt you anymore." She's listened to me complain enough, and she's been telling me I needed to move for a couple of years.
It's been a very sad evening, one of my son's ancient goldfish passed on to fish heaven. He's terribly distraught. We had a funeral and everything.
I do need a supportive community of my own. I'll find that somehow.
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Tayana,
I do feel for you. You've been through so much already. Your mother should never have been so bloody selfish as to control so much of your life so far with her ideas.
Of course it feels daunting to be so close to getting away from the cow. But you'll manage it, and then you can start to work on getting what you and your son need to get a good life sorted.
As to the threats by your mum (and repeated by your dad) about your mum possibly committing suicide...my mum started threatening that to me (and only me), when I was about 30, a year after I met my husband-to-be, when we were planning our wedding and it had finally got through to her that I was going to be with him, not her. In one argument, I even said to her 'Don't push me to make me choose, because you might not win.'
After that, whenever we had a row, she'd threaten to kill herself. It tore me apart - I just couldn't handle the 'responsibility' of whether she lived or died. It all seemed to be my fault. Then I mentioned her threats to a good friend at work, who'd been abused by her father in childhood, while her mother knew about the abuse.'Oh, she's trying that one now, is she? Must mean you're getting away from her!' was her response. Apparently, her mother threatened suicide, regularly, every three weeks. She'd been doing it for about 5 years.
It's such a strange N trait - they threaten suicide, but apparently wouldn't bring themselves to actually do it, because that isn't what they intend at all. They just want to scare you with the ultimate guilt trip. 'You'd be responsible for my death!' How terrible! What would people think? Of course, to an N, this is ALL they think about - the perceived response from others.
Actually, THEY would be responsible for their death.
But it won't come to that, it's just a bluff, so don't be put off by that one. As has already been mentioned, if your dad is repeating this threat to you, he's probably more worried that the attention will turn from you to him, so he'd rather you stick around and take it.
On the subject of how you had to do everything around the house when you were 12 - that could have been written by me! The only 'added extra' in my story is that I was expected to lie to my dad about where my NMum was when she should have been at home (she was out having an affair).
What they do to us! It's amazing we have the strength to go on, sometimes.
Get yourself away from her, tayana, you deserve so much more.
Janet
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Ami,
In a twisted way, this is really funny:
"My H's mother used to threaten suicide whenever my H found a girl that he was interested in. His M is 92."
Janet
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Janet,
I'm feeling better today. I don't know what was up with yesterday. I think I was just tired and dreading the confrontation to come. Yesterday, I turned in the last of the paperwork I needed and got the electric service transferred to my name. It didn't feel good at the time. I seem to feel better when I have definite "plans."
I decided that I will tell my mother on Sunday night, after my brother and his wife leave. We will be having a father's day celebration. I was going to tell her tonight, but I didn't want to be responsible for ruining the holiday. I don't mean that literally. I just mean that I didn't want to have a big guilt trip over ruining the weekend for her. I can live without that. I've decided I want to speak to both my parents, and I will sit them down and ask if we can have an adult conversation. When I get the "You're just doing this to hurt me" line, I'm going to say something like:
"I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm sorry your feelings are hurt. But I have some very practical and economic reasons for wanting to move." I will list those, and of course, she won't believe me. She'll start to rant, and I'm going to say, "I get my keys Tuesday. I'm planning to move on X day. I thought I would pack this week, and next week I'll start taking little thing on my lunch break. Nothing you say is going to change my mind. I wanted to tell you now, and when you are feeling a little calmer we can talk about the details."
It's such a strange N trait - they threaten suicide, but apparently wouldn't bring themselves to actually do it, because that isn't what they intend at all. They just want to scare you with the ultimate guilt trip. 'You'd be responsible for my death!' How terrible! What would people think? Of course, to an N, this is ALL they think about - the perceived response from others.
Actually, THEY would be responsible for their death.
Last night, I sat down with my laptop and I worked through some of the exercises in the Toxic Parents book. I really like this book, even if it does make me cry. One of the exercises is to make a list of the things I'm not responsible for, so I did. Here is my list.
I am not responsible . . . .
· For my mother's rages and unpredictable behavior.
· For my feeling unloved.
· For my feeling worthless.
· For my mother's financial irresponsibility.
· Her problems
· Their happiness.
· Their anger.
· Their pain.
· Their suffering.
· For helping my mother heal.
· My mother's abusive childhood.
· For making my mother fat.
· Making her miserable.
· Stealing her life and dreams.
· For my dad not standing up to her
Seeing it written out like that, and sitting there and thinking about it, made a lot of difference to me. I feel a lot stronger today. I'm carefully reading the section about confrontations right now, and I think, maybe, after we're moved and settled and in a new routine in our new home, I'd like to confront my mom and say, "You hurt me and here's why."
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Tayana,
It was Toxic Parents that gave me my first 'AHA!' moment. Brilliant book, but yes, it's very painful to work through.
Your list, though, is great. You're certainly NOT responsible for any of those things, obviously.
I think what you're planning to tell them is great. They might not listen to the end, though. It might be worth having a 'printed version' to hand to them if it gets so bad that you have to walk out before you've finished telling them everything you need to, otherwise you've got to set up the whole 'adult conversation' again. Just a thougt.
Janet
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Hello tayana and Janet
I'm going to be very non-politically correct but I think you both need this affirmed and validated, so it's worth the risk.
There is something called 'parasuicidality'. It is a manipulation, and it is generally used by people who have borderline personality disorder, or similar problems.
It is the use of threats of suicide as a manipulative tool, to blackmail people into doing what the manipulator wants them to do.
It can start out very early. I vividly remember a young man in my high school who constantly threatened to 'wrap his car around a tree' if young women wouldn't sleep with him. It was bogus, totally bogus, but it worked on several of his targets.
Now. I am not saying all suicidality is bogus. Far from it. And in addition, parasuicidality can be quite dangerous. There is a real risk of someone who is parasuicidal 'slipping up' and actually completing a suicide.
Most laypeople don't understand that there is such a thing; or we've been taught to take suicidality seriously without being taught how to understand it. So, we are prime targets for manipulation by parasuicidality.
When someone threatens suicide, especially if they have a pattern of doing so, think, if you can, about what triggers these threats.
If they are triggered by depression, by life setbacks, by major disappointments, it's probably not parasuicidality. But if they are triggered by frustrations, by not getting one's way, and especially by not getting attention or drama when the person is trying to create drama or get attention... when they feel distinctly 'aimed' at someone... then it may very well be parasuicidality you are dealing with.
If you believe that you are on the receiving end of parasuicidal manipulation, you can be concerned for someone's welfare without allowing them to blackmail you. Advise them to get to a therapist or an emergency room. Monitor them, but maintain your emotional separateness. If you think they are going to act out, you can call 911. You don't have to let them control you. You can call their bluff in constructive ways, instead. And there is nothing disloyal about doing this. It is, in fact, the most constructive response to suicide risk of any type.
Our highest loyalty should be, when possible, to reality; we can preserve that loyalty while remaining compassionate.
Here is a Google search on parasuicidality.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=parasuicidality&btnG=Google+Search
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Janet,
Excellent idea. I think I will have a print version too, just in case. My dad already knows. I just want him there to be a buffer for me.
I've read the book before, although I never worked through the exercises. I wasn't ready, I guess.
Ami, I know it's not going to be as pretty or easy as I think, but if I prepare myself for the confrontation this way, at least I have some armor going in.
Storm, Thank you for this information. I will do some reading. My mom has threatened suicide several times. Most recently when she found out I was planning to move. She told me she would grieve herself to death. A few years before that, she took a gun outside and threatened to kill herself to end her pain. I called 911, but I didn't have the guts to tell the psychologist who came to talk to her that I thought she had made a serious threat. She'd had a fight with my father, but I don't know what it was about. I do know that he wouldn't lift a finger to help her. I remember very clearly because I ended up driving thirty minutes to the hospital in the middle of the night, and I remember calling my friend crying because of what had happened. I blamed myself for the whole mess of course.
After some distance, I don't think she really meant to commit suicide. I don't think she would have done it. I think she and my father had some serious words, and she was afraid he would abandon her, so she pulled this stunt for attention. It was just a week before Thanksgiving. It was the worst Thanksgiving of my life.
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Janet,
Excellent idea. I think I will have a print version too, just in case. My dad already knows. I just want him there to be a buffer for me.
I've read the book before, although I never worked through the exercises. I wasn't ready, I guess.
Ami, I know it's not going to be as pretty or easy as I think, but if I prepare myself for the confrontation this way, at least I have some armor going in.
Storm, Thank you for this information. I will do some reading. My mom has threatened suicide several times. Most recently when she found out I was planning to move. She told me she would grieve herself to death. A few years before that, she took a gun outside and threatened to kill herself to end her pain. I called 911, but I didn't have the guts to tell the psychologist who came to talk to her that I thought she had made a serious threat. She'd had a fight with my father, but I don't know what it was about. I do know that he wouldn't lift a finger to help her. I remember very clearly because I ended up driving thirty minutes to the hospital in the middle of the night, and I remember calling my friend crying because of what had happened. I blamed myself for the whole mess of course.
After some distance, I don't think she really meant to commit suicide. I don't think she would have done it. I think she and my father had some serious words, and she was afraid he would abandon her, so she pulled this stunt for attention. It was just a week before Thanksgiving. It was the worst Thanksgiving of my life.
Hi tayana
that, unfortunately, is classic. My mother didn't threaten suicide; she did things like call on Thanksgiving to tell me that she was having one of her pets put to sleep. It was ill and she had allowed it to suffer for a week without saying or doing anything about it. So that she could kill it on Thanksgiving to get attention and generate drama and try to force her children to dance attendance upon her.
Same thing. Suicide by proxy, intended to ruin a holiday. Allowing an animal to suffer, so that she could stage a drama.
it amazes me how destructive and evil some people can be.
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Storm,
I know it's bizarre, but I didn't really think about how destructive what my mom did was. I wasn't present for her one other previous attempt at suicide. That was right after she had neglected to make house payments on my parents house, gone to court to fight a foreclosure, and said nothing at all until two days before they had to vacate the premises. There were tons of things that got left behind in the house. While everyone was scrambling, trying to move, she went downstairs with a gun and was going to kill herself. Our neighbor went down there and caught her that time and talked her out of it, but I don't think anyone called 911.
A few years later, she and my father were having problems again, and she said, "I know your father blames me for that house . . ."
How could he not? It was her fault the bank foreclosed. She never took responsibility for her actions.
So, I fully expect she'll do the suicide thing again, but this time, if I have to call 911. I'm not going to let her intimidate me into telling the psychologist she wasn't serious.
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Tayana, if she tries this and professional intervention is warranted, then the single most useful thing you can do for the professional is to make them aware of the other times she has tried it, and what the circumstances were that led up to it then.
Don't draw any conclusions, don't suggest any. But do describe the pattern. That will give the therapist a much clearer picture of what is going on.
I hope you are spared this, but if you are not, I think you will be better prepared to deal with her now than you have ever been before.
One other thing. Get your son away from the house before moving day. He doesn't need to see her carrying on, he won't understand it. And this past history of hers is actually a very valuable tool for supporting your decision to remove him from her presence. She is unstable, manipulative, and clearly she is going to be a bad influence on him.
Use the tools you have, and you'll be amazed what you can do with them.
((((((((((Tayana))))))))))
By the way, about the business of her having a gun in the house. That needs to be locked up, separate from the ammunition, or removed from the premises entirely. Guns for self protection are one thing, but guns in the house with a [presumptive] parasuicidal borderline who has already acted out twice are another thing entirely. This is not something you discuss with her; it's probably not something you discuss with your father. You discuss it with gun experts - and I think we have at least one on this board... hopefully he'll check in here.
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One additional question, tayana, and I apologize if I've missed something about this earlier.
Is your mother an alcoholic? Is she a heavy drinker?
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Hi tayana,
I guess I'm the gun expert, but you don't really need one in this case.
Guns and irrational people mix about as well as a fifth of bourbon and a two ton Buick on a rainy night.
Get the gun and remove it from the house. If she is going to threaten suicide let her do it with something that is a lot less lethal to innocent bystanders like your son.
And regardless of any gun in the house I do not think it would be wise to tell your mother the date you are planning on moving out. If it were me personally I wouldn't even tell her I was moving. But for heavens sake, if she'll do the other things she has done to you, it is almost certain she will do whatever she can to screw up moving day.
mud
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Storm,
No my mother isn't a heavy drinker. She doesn't drink at all. She never has. She is so anti-alcohol that she berates anyone who drinks in her presence. Evidently, her father or step-father or whatever was a heavy drink and very abusive. At least, this is what I've heard from her. I don't really know what I believe anymore. She once told me, because I'm a writer and she thinks I'm wasting my time, that she should write a book about her life and it would be a best-seller. I am rather skeptical about that, but I remember telling her go for it.
If I have to have professional intervention, I will describe the pattern. Unfortunately, removing her gun won't do much good. My father is a collector and we have numerous guns in the house. She told the psychologist the last time that she had the gun outside with her for protection from the coyotes. I just rolled my eyes at that one.
I'd really rather get all of my stuff out of the house without her there. I don't know that it will happen. I'm sure she'll do and say all manner of hurtful things. And probably call me every nasty name she can think of, which to continue my list:
I am not responsible for her namecalling, criticism, or back-biting.
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Dear Tanya:
You are an inspiration! After all you've been put through, you are still concerned with your parents welfare. Please remember to keep your son and yourself PRIMARY on the list of concern. That is your responsibility.
Please don't tell your parents that you are moving. Please stop worrying about how she/they will react and start paying attention to your son's and your own health, safety and welfare. You must be strong and clear minded, emotionally calm and clear for your son and to get this done correctly.
Please say something like: "Something's come up and I am moving today." and refuse to give any more information. None. Not a phone number or an address. You can call, later and explain that you are safe and if she starts to flip say that you will call back when she's ready to act like an adult (and I agree with Stormy, call 911 if she threatens suicide and let the professionals deal with her). And if possible, warn your employer that your mother is having "psychological difficulties" so that if she tries to track you or pester you at work, they will have advance notice and your apologies.
Please do this and don't look back, for your son's sake and for your own. Your life will be so much better! You and your son do not need people like this in your life. You really don't.
I loved reading about your dreams of forming a playgroup and Co-op and I imagine you have other dreams that you think about. Please, go for your dreams.
You have been the adult taking care of your parents (which was not fair and quite crazy).
You must be the adult for your son, which is not only fair but healthy.
Your son is your family.
Your parents have not acted as family.
((((((((Tanya and Son))))))))
Sela
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I love this board!
Sela, thank you so much, although I still don't consider myself inspiring. Actually, I feel guilty and shameful about this. I feel even more guilty that I got the apartment sooner than I planned, and so things have to happen a little faster than I'd planned.
My dad has moments when he acts like an adult, but mostly he goes into these sulks and says nothing. The night I had to call 911 for my mom, he told me, "Go out there and talk some sense into her. I can't do anything with her." I was so angry that night. I was angry with my mom for pulling such a stunt, and angry with him for making me the mediator, peace-keeper, and really putting me in danger. While I was on the phone with 911, he was sitting in the den reading, as if nothing at all was going on. I was so mad. I even told him before I went out to talk to my mom that he should call 911. He wouldn't even go to the hospital. I had to go.
It's just craziness. I'm tired of keeping their secrets. I really am. That's one of the things I want to tell my mom. That I'm not going to be her secret-keeper anymore.
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Tanya, your parents are nutso.
There is no shame in wanting to live and bring your son up in a sane environment.
There is more guilt to be had in staying and exposing him and yourself to their incredibly bonko behaviour than moving to an igloo with the Inuit.
Forget the past and what they've done and how they might react. Focus on now and tomorrow and stop parenting them (sorry....I know this is blunt. You can kick me later).
Sela
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Sorry Tanya:
I don't mean to say that you should feel guilty for staying where you have so far. You have been working toward leaving (by paying off the debts, ect) for such a long time and that is truly inspiring.
To stay now, out of guilt for their reactions (choices, imo).....would be something to feel guilty about later.
Don't let guilt hold you back! You're not a bad daughter for going. You're a good mother!!
Sela
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Hey, Sela,
I need the kick. I need lots of kicks, because I have a feeling the next couple of weeks are going to be very hard.
Maybe my mom will just stop talking to me, so I don't have to deal with her, and right now, an igloo with Inuit sounds pretty nice, if a bit chilly.
I have a girlfriend who left an abusive husband a few years ago. She told me she felt really guilty when she left too. Maybe it's normal. Of course, I have no idea what "normal" is.
Thanks Sela, for your kind words. I just feel guilty about moving, a little. Today, I'm back to a combination of being scared sh**less and being so excited that I can hardly help myself.
My son and I have talked about the move. I've been telling him all the positive things. He wanted to know if there would be other dogs so our dog could make friends. I told him there were other kids around so he could make friends. There was an indoor pool so we could swim all year. We have a little patio and the management said we could have hanging baskets and plant what we like, so we are going to make a spider garden (he loves spiders and bugs). He will have his own bathroom, so I told him he could pick out the decorations. He's starting to get excited too, still a little scared, but excited.
And there's no staying. I can't back out of the lease without paying a huge penalty. I've already had to pay a lawyer a huge retainer, I don't intend to do back out of my lease.
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Hi Tanya,
I have not posted here in about 2 weeks, but I wanted to chime in about your feelings of anticipating telling your Mother that you're moving. Here's my idea:
Do you have to have this confrontation/conversation with your parents?
What if you skipped the confrontation/conversation and instead just moved out and told them that you will speak to them AFTER you have finished moving?
I say this because I know how you feel. You're picturing all these horrible scenerios in your mind which you believe will occur when the confrontation/conversation takes place.
How about just skipping the confrontation/conversation, do what YOU must do (which is move) and have the confrontation/conversation after the deed is done.
I suggest this because I remember that prior to having a confrontation/conversation with my NM, I would do mental gymnastics which would drain my emotions and energy. The anticipation was torture, but now I seethat I tortured myself by anticipating NM's reaction (because I had heard all her BS before and could anticipate her reaction). Now, I look back and say for what? It was not worth wasting my energy and strength on anticipating the N's reaction. The N will do what the N will do. We have no control over the N's reaction. Don't waste any more energy/emotion on your N parents than you already have. Save yourself.
Maybe it's "cowardly" to avoid the confrontation/conversation, but if it saves you heart ache, why not?
You are so brave. I 'm very happy for you that you are moving. It is your act of self love and love for your son.
Sally
PS: I'm sorry (especially to Stormchild) that I haven' t posted for a while. I was just too emotionally drained. I know I don't have to apologize, but I wanted to say this.
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Sally,
Were you emotionally drained by what came up on the board or just other life things? Love Ami
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I feel relief Tanya!! So glad you're not going to back out of that lease! I'm relieved to hear that and see you write it! I'm truly happy for you and your son! You're going to be so much better off!!
As to guilt and what's normal? Ha! Like I would know?? :roll: I use the term usually with brackets, normal (whatever that is).
How about learned? How about what you learned growing up in that nutty place? Have you been taught to feel guilt and be responsible for others? Then, yep, it's normal.
And when you leave there and teach yourself that that kind of guilt is loony and useless and that you are only responsible for yourself and your son? That will be normal too!! From then on (only I'd say healthy! (whatever that is)? Ok, healthier! Does that make sense?
Fear? Anything new will produce a certain amount of it, I think. How about thinking about it as doubt? We all have doubts. They don't paralyze us though. So rather than let the fear rule, maybe you can change your thoughts around to consider some reasonable doubts, think of some solutions/alternatives/bonuses/etc and maybe you won't feel quite so afraid.
Who wouldn't be afraid after what you've been through? The trick is not to cave in to fear, in this case, since it's only temporary. Once you're settled in your new place, enjoying the peace and tranquility that you WILL feel, knowing you're responsible for the correct stuff....yourself and your child, beginning a new life where you might actually enjoy some of your dreams.....
.......you may think: "How the heck did I ever feel afraid of this?"
Oh your new place sounds lovely!! Focus on being excited and kick that guilt to the curb!! It's not appropriate. Tell yourself it's not appropriate. Start the training!!
Because you have to teach your son the healthiest stuff you can!
(Hey! We all need a kick now and then! Besides, you've been kicking yourself more than anyone. Just in the wrong places, maybe?)
Sela
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"My dad has moments when he acts like an adult, but mostly he goes into these sulks and says nothing. The night I had to call 911 for my mom, he told me, "Go out there and talk some sense into her. I can't do anything with her." I was so angry that night. I was angry with my mom for pulling such a stunt, and angry with him for making me the mediator, peace-keeper, and really putting me in danger. While I was on the phone with 911, he was sitting in the den reading, as if nothing at all was going on. I was so mad. I even told him before I went out to talk to my mom that he should call 911. He wouldn't even go to the hospital. I had to go."
Oh Tanya,
I completely relate to the insanity of your story. I highlight it to because as I look back at similar crazy making incidents, I pledged this to myself: NO MORE! I will not allow myself to be manipulated thru crazy making scenerios such as the one you described. It's a new day and a new me.
From now on, when a crazy making incident is unfolding and I feel like I'm being sucked into someone else's drama, I step back and ask myself: Do I want to participate in this? I remind myself that I cannot control other people's reactions, I can only control my own reaction. A key word would be "disengage". Now, I focus on my actions, my reactions because I've learned a lesson that perhaps people with N parents never learned: We are not responsible for our N parent's actions/reactions, thoughts/emotions.
It takes a lot of courage to disengage because it goes against our upbringing. But, once you start doing it, it becomes easier and then, perhaps, it becomes second nature.
Tanya,you are strong, courageous and have many good ideas. You are OK and you can make it on your own. Please believe in yourself and delete the 'garbage' thoughts from your mind.
love,
Sally
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Sorry Tanya, but I want to answer Ami:
Hi Ami Sweetheart,
Yes, I felt drained by both.
Stormchild really helped me when she said that my NM was jealous of me. I then started reading and saw jealousy is a characteristic of Ns.
But, I felt so bad about the idea that NM was jealous of me, because Ilooked at my entire life with her (she's dead now) and I felt like my relationship with her was like Alice in wonderland: what parts were real and what was an illusion. Anyway, I could not stop crying for a week, but perhaps I've emerged stronger. Right now, I am trying to focus on being good to me and self care.
So, I find that the journey thru the N maze can be exhausting and sometimes I need to cocoon in order to regain my strength.
But, Ami, I see you have made AMAZING progress. I know it hurts like hell, but I see a new and stronger Ami emerging. Just give yourself time. I have found that there are no short cuts to exiting the N maze.
Again, sorry Tanya; this is about YOU.
Love,
Sally
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Sally, thanks so much for chiming in. I hope you are feeling better and stronger.
Do you have to have this confrontation/conversation with your parents?
Actually, yes. There are reasons I want to have a confrontation where I get to say, "I'm leaving and here's why." First of all, if I just slip out and go to the new place, I'll feel guilty about that. I'll feel guilty because I never got to face her and say, "I'm moving and there's nothing you can do. My lease is signed. I just have to do a walk through and get my keys." I think it's more for me than her, really. I've always been afraid of her, and I want to face my fear.
How about learned? How about what you learned growing up in that nutty place? Have you been taught to feel guilt and be responsible for others? Then, yep, it's normal.
I suppose the guilt is a learned thing. I remember once when I was seven or eight, I guess, that my mom was taking a bath and hurt her back. I didn't know what to do, but I knew I had to do something. My mom told me to do nothing, but in my child's mind, my mom was hurting and I needed to do something. So I called a family friend and asked her to come help. My mom actually got angry because I did this, but I wanted to help her, so I did the only thing I knew how. I called another adult.
From now on, when a crazy making incident is unfolding and I feel like I'm being sucked into someone else's drama, I step back and ask myself: Do I want to participate in this? I remind myself that I cannot control other people's reactions, I can only control my own reaction. A key word would be "disengage". Now, I focus on my actions, my reactions because I've learned a lesson that perhaps people with N parents never learned: We are not responsible for our N parent's actions/reactions, thoughts/emotions.
When one of these incidents happens now my mind sort of goes away, and I don't focus on her or on the conversation. I just sort of float. I don't know if that's what's called dissociation or not, but I don't really react or say anything, just sort of float above it all.
Stormchild really helped me when she said that my NM was jealous of me. I then started reading and saw jealousy is a characteristic of Ns.
My mom's behavior has always been odd, but since she quit work it has really gotten odd. I have often thought she is very jealous of me being young and having a career when she's stuck at home feeling sorry for herself. I even told a friend once I thought she was jealous. It sounds so bizarre, but I think it's the truth.
Again, sorry Tanya; this is about YOU.
Not a problem Sally. I like to listen.
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I did the only thing I knew how. I called another adult.
You did the responsible thing. You acted responsibly to care for your mother. For that, you were put down, told off, punnished, whatnot. That must have hurt! I'm so sorry for every single hurt you have endured, Tanya. That's not what mothers are supposed to do.
Do you see how the guilt you felt was molded? I bet you do! Maybe it would help to try really hard to think about that every time you feel guilty or have a guilty thought from now on? Ask yourself: Am I really responsible here or is this learned guilt? Is this about me or my words/actions or someone else's reaction/response to them?
I've always been afraid of her, and I want to face my fear.
You have already faced and over ridden that fear! You signed the lease!!
I still advocate with Sally for confronting later, when you can be totally calm and focussed, rather than now, at a time when you have so many other things to keep track of and do. Moving is stressful for anyone. Wouldn't you do better in a confrontation when you are under less stress? I'm also with Mud, in that it will likely benefit her more than you, at this time.....give her the heads up to try to make moving day a disaster. Look at her history. She will likely do everything in her power to upset/mess up your brave choice! I get that you want to tell her why you're leaving. It's her reaction/response that I don't get you wanting at this point. However, I don't know a whole lot about anything and you must do what you think is best. Just please.......refuse to feel guilt about it. You are doing the right thing!!
Sela
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"Actually, yes. There are reasons I want to have a confrontation where I get to say, "I'm leaving and here's why." First of all, if I just slip out and go to the new place, I'll feel guilty about that. I'll feel guilty because I never got to face her and say, "I'm moving and there's nothing you can do. My lease is signed. I just have to do a walk through and get my keys." I think it's more for me than her, really. I've always been afraid of her, and I want to face my fear. "
Hi Tanya,
You want to have the confrontation. OK. Tanya,please understand that I say this with love, but, can you participate in a way that you won't drain yourself of strength and energy? Can you set a limit,like, when she threatens suicide, you will leave, or whatever limit you want to set?
I understand you want to face your fear, but you have the ability and the right to face that fear in the time, place and manner of your choosing. You don't have to play the old game her way.
And, Tanya, I think you are ALREADY facing your fear: You have signed the lease and you're leaving!! You've faced that fear.
Again, saying this with love: please think about what you are getting out of this anticipated confrontation. You probably know how she will respond, what she will say, you could probably write her lines. So, do you need, do you want to go there again?
Just,please, fortify yourself and do not let her destroy/hurt you any more than she has. Perhaps I'm over reacting, but do you feel like a soldier who prays to God for protection before the battle?
Love,
Sally
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And, Tanya, I think you are ALREADY facing your fear: You have signed the lease and you're leaving!! You've faced that fear.
True. I have, and it feels really good. But I'm still terrified of my mother at times. Sometimes I'm not.
So far today, I have received 3 phone calls at work. One to tell me that my son didn't need anymore socks. He had socks she didn't know about. One to see if I was at my desk (no joke, if she calls and I don't answer, she thinks I'm dead or doing something I shouldn't be), and just now to ask about a birthday invitation my son received from a friend. The woman goes through my mail. She makes comments about my mail, for crying out loud. How stupid is this? I'm just afraid to tell her, "please don't call me at work about silly things."
I hate that I feel so afraid of a woman who can really do nothing to me, except pound home those feelings of guilt and shame she's so practiced at piling on. I literally am petrified when I try to have a real conversation with her. The words just dry up in my mouth. I think that's why I need to be able to say, "I'm moving." If I don't, I'll continue to feel like a coward, because that's how I feel most of the time.
That, and I'm tired of hiding.
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Well, actions speak louder than words and you're taking action.
You are moving!!!
You are not a coward, in any sense. I bet, underneath it all, you know that asking her to not make silly calls to you at work.....won't stop her (and might actually increase the behaviour).
Is there any way you can block her number (once you move, I suppose) or change your number or at least.....ignor her calls/not answer/call screen?
I also bet.....the fear is actually anxiety. The results of her behaviour on you cause anxiousness?? It's dang upsetting to be interupted at work like that all the time! It's frustrating! It's a waste of time! It's childish behaviour but.....for you....it's just plain a pain!!
So when she opens her mouth.......you feel anxious because you have learned that she is probably going to say something derogatory, upsetting, frustrating, childish or something that interupts, unnecessarily...what you're trying to do? And what you try to say....is silenced! No matter what you say it's wrong/off/dumb/whatever? Thus, the fear of having to go through all of that.
Will saying "I'm moving" today give her more opportunity to respond as usual or less?
Will saying "Im moving" on moving day give her more opportunity or less, to respond as usual?
And more important....which will cause more anxiety for you? She'll have from now 'til then to berrate you.
Your mother is a piece of work!!
And you are doing the best you can to protect yourself and your son from her!
Way to go Tanya!!
Sela
PS: On edit, I have to sign off now. Keep going Tanya! Keep talking and working through this!! You are amazing!!
You really are!! You have done so well regardless of all the "training"! Keep going girl!!
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Sela,
I have had problems with anxiety for years. The fear I feel is at least in part anxiety. I guess, a part of me, still hopes she will see me as an adult and she will treat my decision as an adult well thought out one, instead of a knee jerk reaction to my perceived hatred of her. It is in part, because finding out she had undertaken an entire court proceding in my name, forged my name to court documents, made me really angry. So, I guess a tiny part of me, hopes that she will surprise me by not having the reaction I expect, and will sulk for a few days instead and eventually be supportive.
I know this isn't likely, but I keep hoping. I have to let go of this hope.
I think telling her today, well Sunday actually, will give her time to have her totally unreasonable reaction so that when the rest of my family, the relatively normal ones, help me move, that she will at least be rational. If I wait till moving day, she's likely to pull her suicide stint. Before then, she just won't speak to me for several days and will cling to my son like an ant on a sugar cube, but on moving day, she probably won't take herself off and threaten to hurt herself.
And more important....which will cause more anxiety for you? She'll have from now 'til then to berrate you.
Your mother is a piece of work!!
Well, she berates me now, and I just tune it out. And yes, she is a piece of work. She has a cousin, who is like a surrogate aunt to me. She and my mom grew up together, and they both had pretty hard lives. She seems pretty normal and rational, and her husband is a cop, who also seems normal and rational. Now my mom puts on airs when they visit or when she talks to them on the phone, but I sometimes wonder what they really think about her grandiose claims. Evidently, she told my aunt that she would grieve herself to death if I left home too. I think I might have heard part of that conversation, where my aunt said something along the lines of that was unreasonable. I wish I was a little closer to my aunt, and I would just ask if she knows much about my mom's craziness.
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Hi Tanya,
I bet many of us have had to let go of similar hopes. I know I have. It's not an easy chore but necessary. I'm not sure I've even got there, to be honest but what I have done is altered my hope to......
"possibly.....some day......"
and I've decided to live in the now. If it happens, it happens and if it doesn't, I still get to live my life!
No matter what you decide, make a plan for the suicide threat thingy. If she does it on moving day regardless if you talk to her ahead of time, your plan will save you from caving into her manipulation and drama. You'll have to decide to be the one to stay in the other room reading a book this time. It's not your responsibility and never was.
Off I go.......
Good luck and keep going!! Things will get better!! Soon, you'll be enjoying your new home!!
Sela
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Sela, CB,
My mom is a big one for making promises she does not keep. We'll go there some day. We'll go visit. Etc. I don't believe her promises anymore. This is just one more thing I have to stop believing that she's going to say, "You're doing the right thing, and I'm proud of you."
Sela, if she pulls that suicide thing, I'm calling 911 again and this time I'm not going to the hospital. And if I do go to the hospital, I'm going to tell the mental health official who comes to talk that yes, I thought she was serious. Yes, I think she wants to hurt herself. Yes, she is a nutcase.
CB, I really hate that I have this need for approval. I wish I could make it go away, but I always want to hear someone say, you are doing the right thing. It would just make me feel so much better.
Although, I did sleep last night, which was a good thing.
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CB, I forgot to say. Thanks so much for this. It means so much to me.
And by the way, I think you can do it. You have so impressed me with your clear thinking, your level-headed planning. I love the way you have talked to your son to prepare him. You are one smart cookie and, you don't realize it, but you don't need her stamp of approval.
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I'm sorry (especially to Stormchild) that I haven't posted for a while. I was just too emotionally drained. I know I don't have to apologize, but I wanted to say this.
((((((((((Sally))))))))))
no need to apologize... I'm just glad you're back and glad to know what was going on. Talk about things when you feel up to it...
(((((((((( ))))))))))
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Ami,
I'm just going to kind of go with my gut. If I am able to tell her, "I've always been afraid of you. My son is afraid of you, and that's not right." I will. I had sort of planned to tell her today, but she's busy playing martyr, so I decided to wait until Sunday night, after our family get together (I hate those) then at lease I can't be accused of ruining the weekend. I'll feel plenty of guilt without giving her more ammunition.
Here is a typical conversation, and one of the reasons I'm moving. My son was making microwave popcorn and there was a bacon tray in the microwave.
"Why did you put that clean dish in the sink?" I couldn't hear his reply.
"Well I don't appreciate waking up to sink full of dishes every morning. It would be different if somebody else would wash dishes once in while, but I'm the one that has to do it. Now I've worked my a** off all day, and I don't appreciate coming in here to find trash on the floor and a sink full of dishes. Now I've got to clean up this mess."
Martyrdom. Gotta love that.
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Hi tayana
I'm siding with Amy on this... voting for one step at a time and get out first... because once you are out, you have a safe place to go to after you confront her...
Susan Forward is very supportive of confronting one's toxic parents... but she never seems to have dealt with a flaming stalker-type retaliatory vindictive N. If you think you are likely to get flaming stalker-type retaliatory vindictiveness you may want to postpone the confrontation awhile.
In re mama calling you at work - do you have caller ID and voicemail? You can expect a barrage of hassles and interruptions from her for several weeks after you move out. You may need to ignore most if not all of those calls. It will be hard and you will feel guilty, but it will be worse if she hassles you so much that you are unable to get your work done...
you are one brave lady, and a true inspiration. and a good role model for your son, too.
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Stormy,
Unfortunately, my work phone does have caller ID, but it only works for internal numbers. External numbers just show up with a code for external numbers. And the woman will not leave a message. She has an aversion to that, so at least I can tell who is calling from the hangups. She has actually called and complained because I'm not at my desk, to me, not my work.
I don't really think of myself as brave, although that seems to be a theme in the stories I write, just like toxic parents are a theme. The bravery theme often goes, "there's all sorts of bravery . . .and courage is taking action in the face of fear, not the absence of fear." Does that mean I'm courageous because I'm taking action in the face of fear?
I'm doing a little surreptitious packing . . .
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Stormy,
Unfortunately, my work phone does have caller ID, but it only works for internal numbers. External numbers just show up with a code for external numbers. And the woman will not leave a message. She has an aversion to that, so at least I can tell who is calling from the hangups. She has actually called and complained because I'm not at my desk, to me, not my work.
Unfortunate... but on the plus side, you may be able to let outside messages roll over for a few days, pick up the messages, and call your legitimate callers back right away.
I hope.
It takes a while to 'break' this kind of compulsive calling thing.
I don't really think of myself as brave, although that seems to be a theme in the stories I write, just like toxic parents are a theme. The bravery theme often goes, "there's all sorts of bravery . . .and courage is taking action in the face of fear, not the absence of fear." Does that mean I'm courageous because I'm taking action in the face of fear?
Personally I think that's the most authentic courage there is. Yes. You are very brave indeed.
I'm doing a little surreptitious packing . . .
God willing, you'll be leaving the most serious 'baggage' behind. Very soon now.
:::::::::::::::::::: applause for you; you deserve it.
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I've been trying to break the compulsive calling thing for the last seven years. It hasn't work. Luckily, my bosses don't mind. The only time she doesn't call several times a day is if she's mad at me.
Thanks so much Stormy.
God willing, you'll be leaving the most serious 'baggage' behind. Very soon now.
:::::::::::::::::::: applause for you; you deserve it.
Well, actually, I could leave about half what I own behind too, then I wouldn't move it. How did I get so much stuff? Thankfully, I really have about the same amount of room in my new place as I do here in my "upstairs apartment." So maybe I can just spread it out in the living areas and it won't look like have so much. If I didn't have so many books . . . .
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I am feeling a jolt of happiness to think of you packing, Tayana.
:)
I feel privileged to have watched your amazing leap to strength and autonomy.
hugs and cheers and calm mantras...
Hops
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Thanks Hops. I didn't get a lot done, but some. It was a start, at any rate. After tomorrow night, I'll be doing a lot more packing. After Tuesday, I think I'm going to start moving little stuff in.
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tayana:
Practical matters:
Take things out of the house that your mother can take or hurt you with. Get your jewelry and all your paperwork out, for instance. Put it in your trunk. Get your baby pictures, your son's baby pictures.
You have a better idea what that woman may do after she hears the news. She'll be there in the house with all your things and you won't be able to do anything about it then. Think about that now and really get things screwed down tightly before you tell her, K?
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Dear Tayana,
I wanted to pass on a piece of advice that I got from Vaknin's book. I do not like to use it except in emergencies". However, you should have it in your "tool bag" for the big day.
Vaknin says that in a confrontation with an N, you need to mimic their tone and their level of agitation or anger. You need to get in their face if they are in yours and go for it blow by blow. Vaknin says that they will get a look of confusion on their face and stop.
The other day, I did this with my H. He was far enough away from me that he could not hurt me ,though. With him ,you have to 'gauge his distance" because I don't trust his "impulsivity
My H looked stunned as Vaknin said.
I also, did a similar thing to my mother and she was completely speechless. Vaknin says that if you "act like them", they don't know what to do. It neutralizes them. Just a thought. I am praying and thinking of you Love Ami
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Not to totally contradict Ami (sorry), just another option that also works.
The totally non-reactive option.
She fumes, you look blank.
She yells, you keep your voice low and sweet, unconcerned.
She stomps, you giggle and walk away.
She freaks, you remain totally unaffected and your facial expression shows it.
She says awful things, you don't hear.
Like dealing with a two year old having a tantrum, she flips, you don't. You keep doing what you're doing as if she isn't there.
I noticed you already said that you tune her out so you know how to do it and it might be the thing to keep doing.
Your only reaction is if she threatens suicide (or any other violent act), you simply call 911 and continue to move on out. No need to go to the hospital. They will deal with her.
aguest
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Lighter, I was just thinking I need to file some papers away so they wouldn't get lost in the shuffle and were all in one spot. The lease papers are at work in my desk. I thought of that one already.
Ami, I have done exactly what you recommended before with mixed results. I'm going to attempt to do what guest recommended and be non-reactive, which I have also done in the past, with better results.
Of course, I can't really predict anything, even though I know the sort of reactions she's likely to have. She can be eerily rational at times, and that's almost scarier than one of her rages. She is unfortunately, not always predictable. And I can never predict how Im going to react, no matter ow many times I rehearse something in my head.
My son said, "I'm going to be in my room. I don't want to be around when you tell her." I don't blame him, at all.
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I'm so dreadful sorry your son has anxiety about her reaction. I hope there's a way to get him out of the house when you tell your mother. He shouldn't have to feel fearful of her behavior one more moment than he already has.
It'll be done and over soon. Can't wait for you to feel snug and safe in your own place!
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Thanks Lighter. We drove by the place today so my son could see it. He thought it was pretty neat. I just hope he doesn't fall apart once we move. I told him I was so proud of how mature he was being about the idea.
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Tayana...
Can you find a friend-date for your son during this confrontation with his grandmother ... ?????
This is the kind of trauma he doesn't need, right?
Hops
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Dear Tayana,
Hops post brought up an idea. What if you have a friend be there with you when you move. My mother won't act badly in front of other people. She saves those gems for us . Just a thought for your arsenal Love Ami
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She'll behave herself on moving day because my brother will be here, and she wants to look good in front of him. The most she might do is go off and sulk. My son is invited to a birthday party that day, so he could go to that while we move. He doesn't really have friends right now. My mother has made sure he's stayed isolated, and anytime he does get involved with something and enjoy it, she stops taking him. She had him going to church and Sunday School, but now he doesn't do that either. She's too afraid I might get five minutes alone with my father to talk.
My dad said he had a really bad feeling about this court situation, and he wanted to know what his responsibility would be. I told him there shouldn't be any, since he had nothing to do with it. He was asking me what all I might need for moving, and he even told me it was a fine idea. That felt pretty good.
My son crawled into bed with me last night and said he was really nervous about moving and wanted to know why we had to move. He likes this place, and he didn't get to see his new room. He was mad at me for doing this, even though this is going to be the best thing for both of us, but for a minute, I considered backing out of the lease agreement in light of his tears and sadness. THen I realized he was manipulating me, just like my mom does, and I told him I couldn't back out of the lease. It was done and we were moving, and it was all right if he was mad at me, and the next time we move, he could house hunt with me. This time though, I took the first place I could find. He's just going to have to accept that he's going to be leaving his old room behind, and that he might have to get rid of some of the toys and things he doesn't play with anymore.
I'm just not going to back down. I found a really interesting book at the library, "leaving home" by David Celani. It is an excellent book about adult children who have a hard time separating from their families. I'm finding it very inspirational.
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You are doing great, Tayana. Of course,you have doubts.Anyone would, I think. Anyone would think about "backing out" and staying with the familiar
Today is the big day,right? I am praying for you and your son ((((((( Tayana and son))))) Love Ami
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Tayana,
You have a cloak of loving protection from everyone on this board, today, while you deal with your mother and get AWAY!!!!
Janet
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tayana:
It sounds like your son has anxiety over the move that is normal. The tears and trying to get you to stay, that you perceive to be manipulative, do you think he's doing that on your mother's behalf or do you think he's just trying to skirt the trouble he sees coming and looking for a way to escape it?
I'm glad to hear he got to see his room and thinks it's cool. Stay positive with him and get him thinking about what he'll be choosing for his new room. Time for new bedding and paint color? Time for a new lamp and 5 new books? Time to paint a bookshelf to match that new bedding and let him lots of input. Get him excited so he has less time to think about things that he shouldn't have to deal with in the first place.
Let him know you and Grandma have problems you will work through. He has permission to love her and his Grandfather. You are in control and you'll handle all this stuff. He doesn't need to know more than that. Give him information and help alay his fears where you can. Keep his schedule as close to normal as possible. Parent consistently and calmly. Mom needs to always be Mom and handling things.
I've said all this before but, it's hard to think straight when anxiety grabs hold. You'll be fine. Stay strong.
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Thanks Ami and Janet, I need all the love I can get.
Lighter, we talked for a little bit, and I told him Grandma was going to be mad at me for a little while. He seems fine about it today. I think it was just anxiety catching up to him, and he can be very manipulative. I'm going to have to work with him some, or he could turn out like my mother. I don't want that.