Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tayana on June 17, 2007, 10:37:37 PM

Title: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 17, 2007, 10:37:37 PM
Here's the result of my "confrontation."  Please note I stood my ground, even though it really hurt.  My son is truly something special.  He's so concerned because I keep crying, but I keep telling him I'm going to be fine.  I will be.  I just need some distance.  Here's how the conversations sort of went.  I have a pretty good memory for conversations, but not an exact one.  I think I got the most important points.  I managed to stay calm, although towards the end, my calm was starting to shatter.  Please note that this whole conversation was about her, not me, not my son, not my well thought out, well planned, adult decision.  I am according to her only do this to hurt her.

I told my mother tonight that we are moving.  It did NOT go well.  The conversation went a little like this.

Me:  I found a place and we're moving.
Her: Well, I knew something was going on.  Have you told you father?
Me:  A few days ago.  He's a little easier to talk to than you.
Her: And what did he say?
Me:  He was all right with the idea.
Her: And what about M?  What are you doing with him?
Me: Well, if you're willing to keep him, he can stay out here part of the summer, and go to summer camp part of the summer.
Her: And that gets out at what 3?  Then what's he supposed to do?
Me:  They have aftercare, and he can stay there until I get off work.  On the days that I get off early, he'd only be there about 30 minutes.
Her:  And I guess Bible school is out of the question, and his church (please note, M hasn't been to church since easter) too.
Me:  I don't think so.  I thought maybe he could stay out here that week and . . .
Her:  Yeah, right.  It's not going to happen.  And school?  How's he going to get to school?
Me:  I'm going to take him and pick him up.
Her: But you don't get off work till 5:30.
Me:  I don't work till 5:30.
Her:  Well five then.
Me:  He can stay at aftercare a little longer. (Note: M is okay with this idea, even excited about it)  I thought maybe you could keep him part of the summer, I would pay . . .
Her: You aren't going to be able to afford to pay for that.  You're going to have rent and utilities,  you'll have to have a phone, and food.  Do you know how much I spend on groceries (Note: I can cut my grocery bill significantly by not buying so much soda and meat)?  You have no idea...
Me:  I have no expenses. I can afford . ..
Her: And you aren't going to be able to buy all of this other stuff, and go buy . ..
Me: I'm aware of that.
Her: Well, you've got what you wanted now.
Me:  I'm tired of being punished.  You've been punishing me for 10 years.  You can either be supportive about my decision or be nasty about it.
Her: I've been supportive for ten years, and I haven't been punishing you.
Me: Yes, you have.  Everytime I got frustrated with M you'd say something like don't you wish you'd kept your legs together.  Do you know how much that hurts?
Her:  Do you know how much you hurt me when  . . . I just knew you were pregnant . . . and do you know how much that hurt me?"

My son interrupted at this point, and I sent him out to walk the dog, a little more stern than I meant to be.  I didn't want him to hear this.

Her: Well, it seems like you're doing everything you can to keep him away from me.
Me: I'm not, but--
Her:  Well, I'm glad you've got what you wanted.

She walked out and slammed the door.  That wasn't the exact conversation, but very close.  There was the point when she wanted to know what my rent was, and I said 775.  And she informed me we don't pay that here (It's 750).  And then she went on at length about how much stuff I have and how it isn't all going to fit in my 1000 square foot apartment.  And I said, so you just want me to take all of our stuff out?  She denied that that was what she meant, so I guess I'll rent a storage unit too, at least until I get rid of some of my crap.


I had a very long crying jag, and my son was very concerned about me.  My mom hasn't spoken to me since, and I doubt she will.  I talked to my brother a little bit ago to let him know how this all went down.  I really had hoped for something better, but I knew this was about how it would work.  My dad says he isn't mad at me, and my brother thinks I'm doing the best thing.  I think I'm doing the best thing.  I just want to be out of here.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: CB123 on June 17, 2007, 10:50:56 PM
Good for you Tayana.  You knew it was going to be hard, and you have been dreading it for days.  At least now it's over and it's about as bad as you expected.  But you've done it!  And you're on your way! 

It will be really hard, but try to concentrate on your OWN life now.  Try to let go of her reaction and not allow her to steal your peace.  You are going to look back on this and it is going to feel so far away some day.  The physical distance is going to make the emotional distance much easier. 

We're rooting for you Tayana!

CB
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 17, 2007, 11:00:14 PM
Thanks CB.  I feel really guilty right now, although talking to my brother did help.  He said if he needed to meet me somewhere he would.

I just keep thinking about how things will be when we are moved and settled.  I emailed my aunt and uncle to let them know my new address and to extend an invitation to visit when they come through.

I think I will talk to my boss tomorrow, to tell him that I'm going through some personal problems right now, and that I might need to leave to get my son from camp to aftercare.  I think he'll be okay with that.  He's a pretty good boss.  And I need to talk to the camp director to make sure my son can go to aftercare if he goes to the art camps.  There isn't supposed to be aftercare for those.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Ami on June 18, 2007, 08:01:20 AM
WOW Tayana,
   It is so great that you got out. It was a true act of courage . I think that when the dust of emotions settle, you will be really happy and realize what a big and bold move that you made--- with your own grit and courage.
    Tayana, one thing that you said about your M not talking to you again. Well, I really doubt that this will happen. She will be tied to you with Crazy Glue" . You will have to pry her hands off.. It is just an idle threat.                                                                                                                                                      I am surprised",in a way, that your F was so angry. I thought that he was your "friend" and supporter. What happened? When it came down to it, did he chose "peace" for himself? That is what my F would do.Peace at any price.
   How do you feel inside ,now? Are you really proud of yourself? I like your Eleanor Roosevelt quote.
   You did it, Tayana                                                                Love    Ami
 
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 09:58:35 AM
Ami,

I'm not out yet, I don't have my keys until tomorrow, and I still have to move.

No, Ami, she'll talk to me.  She gave me a long lecture this morning about all the negative things that could possible happen when we move and how I've turned my son against her.

My dad wasn't angry, but he is caught in the middle.  That's not a very comfortable place.  He is supportive, just not in a very active way.  I call my brother last night, because no one thought to check on how I was feeling after the announcement.  He chose to placate my mom last night instead of seeing if I was all right.

I am proud of myself.  I told my mom this morning when she started with her lecture that I wasn't going to argue with her.  I just finished reading "Leaving Home" by David Celani.  In the book he says that people like my mom can't be reasoned with.  Once their minds are made up they are made up, so there's no point trying.  So when she started, I just didn't react.  I wasn't going to try to change her mind.  I did say some things, when she asked direct questions, but mostly I didn't react.  As my brother pointed out to me last night, my son has been a bargaining chip to my mom, and she has used him against me for ten years.  I have literally been punished for getting pregnant and having a child, and now, all she wants is to change my mind.  I'm not going to.  I'm going to find a new support system, and if that means I never get to see my parents again, that is what will happen.  Celani says that people who are unable to leave home, need to develop a new support system and stop looking to their parents for the support they've never gotten.  So, I'll do that, and in a few days, we'll be out of that house and we can start our new life.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 10:03:35 AM
CB,

My boss isn't unreasonable, and I'm thinking about some creative choices.  He might be able to come sit in the cafeteria here for the last thirty minutes of the day.  There's a TV out there, and snack machines.  My girlfriend said to contact her church, there might be some solutions there.  There is aftercare available after camps.  And, I think I might be able to just take my lunch late and leave early, but I have to talk to my boss about that one.  Unfortunately, my job does not really have a lot of flexibility as far as working from home, I have to be physically here, although that's something I'd like to change.

I feel pretty good today.  I'm feeling pretty strong.  I think tonight, all of my papers and things are going in my car, just in case.  Because my mother is going to keep trying to get me to stay.  She thinks everybody has turned against her, including my 10 year old, who has no idea what is really going on.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Stormchild on June 18, 2007, 10:11:47 AM
Hi tayana

Whew. ((((()))))

I'm glad you posted this conversation, because you will be able to look back at this post if your reserve falters, if she starts 'love bombing' you, if the rest of the family starts pressuring you to change your mind.

Her entire end of the conversation is basically a collection of distortions, attacks, putdowns, and manipulations. Some overt, some covert. There's not a glimmer, not a flicker, of genuine concern for you, not a scrap of concern for your son.

Here's how that conversation could have gone:

You: Mom, I have something I need to tell you. Son and I are moving out, I've found an apartment. The movers will be here on the umpteenth.

Her: You know, I kind of thought this was coming. Why? Why are you doing this?

You: It's time, mom. We're in each others pockets here, all the time, it's too much. Son and I need our own space, I need my own place. I'm a grown woman with a child.

Her: But you need me for childcare don't you? What about his churchgoing and all?

You: Mom, I've been working on those things. We can work it out if you would like to remain involved. I have lately had the sense that it was more of a chore to you than a joy.

Her: Oh goodness. I never meant to come across that way.

You: Mom, it doesn't matter. I need to move out, it's time, it's what kids do when they grow up. They leave their parents' home and start a home of their own. I'm like ten years late with that. I appreciate the help, the shelter, and all of that, but I need to do this now.

Her: I'm not happy about this at all.

You: I know. It's a big change and a loss, but it has to happen. It's time. I've talked to Dad and Brother. They're OK with it and they'll support you too.

Her: Well I don't think I can talk about this any more right now. I love you and Son and I'm going to miss seeing you here...

You: That's OK. We can talk about it more later. Just so you know, I've already got the key and I will be moving things out over the next few days. And when Son and I get settled in, maybe you and Dad could stop by for supper.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's what a conversation with a reasonably normal but overly clingy mother might look like. You'll note that there's no abusiveness in it. Compare that to what you got.... and thank your lucky stars you're getting out.

Someone here advised you to get the things you treasure away from there asap. I would second that, now that she knows you are going. You can rent a 5x5 storage space for a month, three months, and fling stuff there to keep it safe if you need to. That way it's not in the trunk of your car, which she can get into if she gets the keys.

For certain sure, get every single piece of financially related paper out of there, as soon as you can. Put a forwarding order on your address now, if possible, so that your bank statements etc. go to the apartment, if it's possible for you to get your mail there. If not, perhaps the apartment main office would be willing to receive your mail for a few weeks. I did that when I was moving out of state and it really helped.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hang in there, tayana. Try, if you can, to think of it like this: you are mourning a death that happened long ago. It's like having a loved one missing in action for a decade, and then their remains are found. You go from being reasonably sure to being absolutely certain. But in your heart, though you hoped, you were prepared to mourn.

(((((( ))))))
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Sela on June 18, 2007, 10:32:00 AM
Hi Tanya:

Congratulations on making a calm and clear announcement and for not losing your cool!  You did a great job and now it's over!!  I bet that's a relief?

One thing......

Quote
She thinks everybody has turned against her, including my 10 year old, who has no idea what is really going on.

I imagine she has done a wonderful job of giving you this impression and now you believe this is actually what she thinks.

I bet it's not exactly what she thinks.  I bet it's what she wants you to believe she thinks and what she is trying to get herself to believe.  The truth is.....she can't face the shame of her own behaviour and so she is trying to turn it around......make herself the victim......turn you into the rotten people (you and son) who have all turned against her for no good reason!  She has done not a thing wrong to deserve this horrible treatment (which is what she proclaims.....wants you to believe......is trying to convince herself of.... see how awful you are treating her (you're not moving out for yourself......you're doing it to harm her eh?).  Project the shame and guilt onto you!!  Onto your son!!!!!

Like water off a duck, Tanya, let it run away/slide off.  You have nothing...notta.........to feel guilt or shame over.  Hopefully, you'll find a way to talk about this with your son to help him shed these inappropriate feelings which are also being dumped on him.

She's an expert at manipulation eh?  And projection!

She can't face her own stuff and is trying to shove it at you and your son.   Don't accept that.

Sela
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 10:42:26 AM
Hey Stormy,

There was a little piece of my mind that just stayed separate through the whole thing, and I was analyzing the conversation.  At one point I said, "This has nothing to do with you.  I want to be closer to work.  I want my son to go to another school so I can try for services again."  She turned that around and basically said, "Well you're getting what you wanted.  You're getting away from me.  That's what this is all about."  I noticed that my decision reflected only on her, and I wondered what I had done to make her hate me so much.

This morning, she gave me another lecture.  Here's a paraphrased version of it.

 
This morning she harangued me about how M's autism will get worse.  Do you know what?  I was reading the psych eval yesterday, and the things the psych had recommended for M.  Groups like boy scouts, being involved with peer tutoring, etc.  All things that require SOCIAL interaction.  He gets none of those things now, and I'm sorry, but going to church and to Sunday school for a couple of hours once a week isn't enough.
 
She told me I'm taking him out of a stable home environment (Yeah, right, can you call this stable?) and I'm going to shove him from pillar to post at camps and latch key and he's just going to get worse.  You know what?  I think he'll get better.  That sort of structured play is exactly what the psych had recommended.  She said older kids would pick on him at school (he's going to be in 5th grade, he'll be the oldest at the school.)  And he needs to learn to deal with bullies, really.  

She said that I think he's all grown up now ( I don't, but I do think he needs something better than this), and that I'm pushing him to grow up before he's ready (He can't even get a glass of water at home without a production).  And that I've spent a week turning him against her because we played some games instead of me watching TV with her.
 
Then she tells me that my dad will want to retired and they are going to move some place far away so they can live cheap and it wouldn't be Warren or Lincoln county.  She also told me they're locked into a lease (they're paying month to month), and they would move as soon as they could.  (In other words, if you're moving, get all your stuff out, and I"m not watching your kid.)
 
And I'm going to be responsible for M regressing even more, and she wondered why he'd been all hung up on dinosaurs this week.  Please note, that when M and I went out to lunch on Saturday, he never once mentioned dinosaurs, although he did talk about tarantulas some.  We talked about moving and what to get for Father's Day.  In the time we were gone he never once mentioned dinosaurs, except in relation to the movie he'd gotten from the library.
 
She also went on about how I'm close to the mall, and there's all sort of stuff that goes on in the mall parking lots.  My complex is across the road, and kids who are doing crime at the mall, probably aren't going to say, "hey let's go over there and see what we can do there."  Criminals just don't work like that.  She said that I would have no yard for the dog.  The dog doesn't play in the yard now.  He goes out to do his business, goes for a long walk and comes back in.  He might run a few circles in the process, but he's pretty much an inside dog.  (More on the dog in a minute)  She then went on about how much stuff I have and how small the apartment is going to be when I have furniture in it.  It's roughly the same size as my living space now.  And how I wouldn't have room for all of my son's toys.  Son and I talked about this and about how we needed to get rid of some things.  Son doesn't play with anything except Legos anyway, or maybe cars on occasion.   At the point that she started going on about this, I was tired of the discussion.  I just didn't reply.

Now, the dog we have, I bought for Son because I had read autistic children related to pets very well.  I thought it would give him one friend he could always depend on.  Since I got the dog, my mom has done nothing but complain.  The dog messed in the floor, she complained.  He sheds, she complains.  He's underfoot, so she complains.  Yesterday, she complained that he'd scratched her tables.  Never once has she said anything about the positive effect the dog has had.  My son and the dog are buds, and when he's home, that dog never leaves my son's side.  She went on a long spiel yesterday about how the dog had scratched her tables and she never got new furniture (not true, my dad would have bought furniture for her) and how she had to clean up dog hair.  Made me feel loved, let me tell you.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: CB123 on June 18, 2007, 10:47:00 AM
Tayana,

Just an aside--all little boys get obsessed about dinosaurs, at some point!  I'm convinced it's a normal stage of development! 

Why does your mom care if he talks about dinosaurs?  I dont think it's a symptom of autism at all. 

CB
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 10:47:28 AM
Quote
I bet it's not exactly what she thinks.  I bet it's what she wants you to believe she thinks and what she is trying to get herself to believe.  The truth is.....she can't face the shame of her own behaviour and so she is trying to turn it around......make herself the victim......turn you into the rotten people (you and son) who have all turned against her for no good reason!  She has done not a thing wrong to deserve this horrible treatment (which is what she proclaims.....wants you to believe......is trying to convince herself of.... see how awful you are treating her (you're not moving out for yourself......you're doing it to harm her eh?).  Project the shame and guilt onto you!!  Onto your son!!!!!

She gets one day to show me that she isn't going to take her anger, guilt or whatever out on my son, and if she does, then he won't be staying with her.  

I firmly believe that she think this is a conspiracy against her.  She doesn't want other family members to be together without her present, because she's afraid we'll talk.  I don't know if it's guilt she feels or shame.  I've certainly seen her offer no remorse for the things she's gotten caught in, so I don't think it's guilt.  Shame maybe, but definitely not guilt.  You see, she thinks she is the victim here, so we are the ones wronging her.  We're just doing this to hurt her.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if she doesn't try a suicide attempt, or something equally stupid, just for attention.  If she does, my behind isn't going to the hospital.

She called my work earlier, but I wasn't at my desk.  I didn't call home.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 10:53:23 AM
CB,

In his case, the interest is a little too restrictive, and that's all he will discuss for periods of time.  OF course, yesterday, he just wanted to be included in the conversation.  He couldn't talk about adult things, so he chose to talk about other things.

I remember when I was his age, and I used to get so angry because I didn't know how to communicate with kids my own age, and the adults wouldn't listen to me.  I had grown up isolated on a farm, like my son has so far, and I didn't have friends.  I can't tell how much of my son's behavior is "autism" and how much is his abnormal upbringing and his grandmother's criticism.

One of things listed in my son's psych eval was that punitive statements shouldn't be used to change behavior.  He needed lots of positive reinforcement.  I was thinking on my way in about his supposed regression, and wondering how much was really from school and how much was from my mother harping and screaming at him everyday after school to get his homework done.  She wouln't let him have a break after school.  She would make him sit down as soon as he got home and start on his homework, and he would have to sit there until it was done.  There were times when she wasn't happy with his handwriting or whatever, and she would take his paper and make him start all over.  Now, in a child who is supposed to be having positive reinforcement, do you really think that sort of treatment was helping him?
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Ami on June 18, 2007, 12:48:43 PM
dear Tayana,
   As someone said on a post, we, who are objective, can see just how" bad"your mother is.The thing that strikes me in all of this is just what they say in the books on NPD------it is all about them.
 Here you are trying to make a good life for yourself and it becomes all about her----- "hurting 'her, somehow.
  Where did it come to be that your" reasonable actions" like wanting your own place, come to be all about her.
  Someone said that your leaving  is a   kind of death. It is a death of hopes and dreams for your mother daughter relationship. It is a facing of reality  as it is. It is accepting that it will probably not get better. To me, these are the "deaths" that I am going through, also
   You are acting so much more courageously than I am, though.   
    You are 'doing" the Eleanor Roosevelt quote.                     Love   Ami
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 01:32:16 PM
Ami,

I can't pretend to understand her.  I can't pretend that I understand this idea that this is all about her.  The truth is she's never forgiven me for getting pregnant when I was 22.  She was hateful about that.  She's made plenty of biting, punishing comments about how I've shamed her for my mistake.  This whole thing is not about moving.  It's about defiance.  I'm defying her.  I'm saying, what we've got here isn't working, it's time for something new.  She doesn't like that because she always has to be right.  I've managed to get another perspective on the situation, and I see how truly dysfunctional this model is.  I have committed the ultimate sin and I have broken the silence.

It is a sort of death, although I don't think I'm really mourning the loss of the mother/daughter relationship.  We don't really have one.  We have a mockery of that.  I'm mourning that I'm never going to have that, and I'm going to have to find a replacement for that relationship.

Am I courageous?  Maybe.  I know I was certainly scared last night, and I said what I needed to say anyway.  I tried to give voice to my hurt, but it didn't happen.  She wouldn't listen to me.  My voice didn't matter.  I'm probably going to have to undo whatever she's done to my son today.  As my brother pointed out, he's been used against me.  Every time I've tried to break away, she's there to twist that knife.  There was a point a few months ago that I really began to resent my son because I'd never gotten the chance to live.  It wasn't his fault.  But I was projecting my anger onto him.  My mother quickly pointed out that I've yelled at him, and I have.  I'm  not proud of that, but I do know that those moments when he tries my patience most are when she has been ragging on us, and that gets me tense and that tension erupts.  I do not, however spend every conversation with my son, seeing how much I can criticize him. He's got enough problems, he doesn't need criticisms.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Ami on June 18, 2007, 02:03:51 PM
Dear Tayana,
    I could hear in your voice the sense that maybe it was your fault that she hated you because you got pregnant,brought shame on her etc. Well, you have to remember this----- they hate us because that is who they are. I did everything "by the book". I did everything in the 'traditional" order and she still hated me. I was a kid who would have made any mother proud and she hated me.
  She laughed at me because I wanted to have morals and values. She scorned me for this.
   They hate because that is who they are. You could never have been 'good" enough for her no matter what you did.
   There is no good enough.
   I had to respond to what I felt was"unsaid' in your post                       Love  Ami
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 02:17:11 PM
Thanks Ami,

I do I suppose feel like I should have done something different, but I don't think it would have helped.
 
Did your mom get meaner as she got older?  Mine used to at least have moments of compassion, but now she's so negative that no one wants to be around her.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: JanetLG on June 18, 2007, 02:59:31 PM
Tayana,

I think you did really well in your 'confrontation/conversation' with your NMum. You got across as much as was possible with her trying to turn it into a 'poor me' conversation. You should be proud of yourself for facing up to her and going ahead with what is a perfectly normal thing - an adult child leaving home. If she chooses to see it as you 'abandoning her' - tough.

You'll be much better off (and so will your son) without her interfering everyday in your lives.

You said a couple of interesting things that I'd like to comment on:
 "I have committed the ultimate sin and I have broken the silence." - This is incredibly important to N's. They have to have THEIR VERSION of the reality kept at all costs, and if you dare to show the world by defying her version and doing what YOU want, then you're what my NMum called 'wicked and sinful'. How can she show to the world what a perfect relationship she has with her daughter, if her daughter has had the cheek to MOVE OUT? How can she say 'my daughter loves me so much she can't do without me' if you're not there? Of course, many daughters have good relationships with (normal) mothers, without living in their pockets. But NMothers don't see it like that. They have their own system of behaviours that will 'prove' to the world their way of looking at things, and , to her, you're not playing the game any more.

Tough.

You also said do they get meaner as they get older? Well, mine certainly has done. Possibly, that's because I refused to 'toe the line'. If I'd done as she said, and annihilated my personality in the process, I could have 'contained her' a bit, but I doubt it. I've read that they get worse with age, and more and more lonely, as more people get sick and tired of the behaviour they receive from them, and that they tend to die very lonely people. But that's for her to deal with, not you. Your job is to bring up your son, and it sounds like you are doing a great job, despite difficulties. I'm sure he'll do much better with the kind of activities you are trying to arrange for him. If you end up a bit cramped in an apartment because you've got too many belongings to start off with, at least you won't have the one item that could spoil the whole thing - your mother! It'll be great once you get used to the changes.

Janet


Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Ami on June 18, 2007, 03:06:02 PM
Dear Tayana,
   I think that any show of independence in thought or action brings out the viciousness.
   I don't live near her now. However, when I wanted to be "independent" of her 'decimating me over the phone, she was enraged that I would try to get a sense of self.
   The really "funny" thing was that all my life, she  decimated me for being "too dependent." That is what I am seeing now and partly why I am having these panic attacks.
  She ridiculed, decimated, criticized, humiliated, lashed out at  and destroyed me because I was too dependent. All the while ,she was trying to make me dependent.
   It is almost too much for a person to bear--- Don't you think?            Love   Ami
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 03:13:38 PM
Thanks Janet.  I tried to be an non-argumentative and calm as I could, but we'll see how much undoing I have to do with my son tonight.  I will not be amused if she has dug her claws into him, so to speak and fed him a bunch of lies.

Quote
They have to have THEIR VERSION of the reality kept at all costs, and if you dare to show the world by defying her version and doing what YOU want, then you're what my NMum called 'wicked and sinful'.

Well, I must say, that's how she's trying to make me feel.  She's being just as nasty as she can be.  She called me at work today to tell me that she's glad I'm moving, and that she has enough furniture to furnish my apartment.  I own enough furniture to furnish an apartment.  I'm almost to the point of saying, I don't want anything from you.  I'll do this on my own.

She has gotten progressively meaner, especially in the last couple of years.  She has these delusions that everyone is out to get her.  I'm just hoping she doesn't do something truly stupid in front of my son.

Ami, my mom likes to keep me dependent.  I'm not allowed to be independent.  This has also gotten worse in the last couple of years.  And to do that she criticizes, demeans and generally tells me I'm not smart enough to leave her, that I need her like some form of parisitic virus.  She just finally took things too far, and I got tired of being her host.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Hopalong on June 18, 2007, 03:23:52 PM
SO glad and impressed and delighted and sympathetic for you, Tayana.

One quick thing: UGGGHH, the offer of furniture. This is the "change back!" and it's also bait. If you crack one inch of YOUR new space open to HER furnishing "contributions"--I truly believe you'll regret it.

I hope you can say something like, thanks for offering and I'll let you know if I need anything. I am going to spend some time with the space before I decide what we need, if anything.

She'll RUSH right back with, but you need this and where's M going to keep his toys and I have this blahblah that you could have blablablabalablablablablablabla.......

Hmm. I think I'm projecting. What a nerve this touched. Oh, right. I suffer from Repressed Decor Syndrome.

Anyhoo, projection or not, I think she might try to morph into Your Best Furnishing Pal and I'd keep saying NO until you are certain YOU need something. It just seems like a way for her to get (over)involved in your life again.

God knows you don't need her coming over with excuse after excuse. Yoo hoo! I brought you a BATH MAT!!!  :shock:

hugs to you and congratulations, this has been huge growth, hasn't it?

Hops
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 03:36:46 PM
Quote
Yoo hoo! I brought you a BATH MAT!!!   :lol:

Oh Hops, I needed that laugh!  She would so do that too.

I figure after she realizes I don't intend to back down, she'll want to come over and decorate it for me.  No way are we doing that.  She'll go on for hours about what she could do with this and that something else.  She was a decorator you know, and she was one of the best there was, and no doubt she could do wonders with the place.

It has been a huge growth.  I'll be glad when we're moved though.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: CB123 on June 18, 2007, 03:38:27 PM
hee hee  :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sorry for laughing, Tayana--but she is so TRANSPARENT!  ("okay, the mean act isnt going to work, now I think I'll try the helpful act")

Stick to your guns!  You're almost out.

CB
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 03:50:18 PM
 8) 8) 8) CB!

She is very transparent.  It was very freeing once I realized how transparent she was.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: JanetLG on June 18, 2007, 05:54:58 PM
Hops, I think I've got this, too:

"I suffer from Repressed Decor Syndrome"

Tayana,

One thing my NMum used to do before I really went berserk at her and told her NEVER TO DO IT AGAIN was, she'd go into my house when I was at work or on hooliday (she had I key that took me ages to get off her), and she'd re-arrange my kitchen cupboards, move the furniture around,etc...

Used to drive me crazy!!
She had no boundaries whatsoever. Be careful yours doesn't try it with you. It's classic 'clawing you back' metaphorically.

Janet
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 07:46:23 PM
Oh, Janet, I don't intend to give her a key . . . I figure that's the easiest way to avoid that situation.  She'll probably have a cow over that, but oh well.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Stormchild on June 18, 2007, 07:50:11 PM
Did your mom get meaner as she got older?  Mine used to at least have moments of compassion, but now she's so negative that no one wants to be around her.

Yes yes and yes. I think all Ns do. The universe just keeps stubbornly refusing to let them be at the center of it... and they get madder and madder and madder. An aging N is a horrible, horrible thing to be in forced proximity to.

Good on you for not giving her a key. Make very very sure your landlord has it in writing from you that she is not to be given one by the office under any circumstances...


(((((((((( ))))))))))
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 07:57:46 PM
I didn't think it was my imagination that she was getting meaner.  She has not said one word to me since I came home.  Doesn't bother me all that much, it's just irritating.  I'd rather have her say nothing than start with a guilt trip or else telling me all sorts of nonsense.

Oh Stormy, thanks for that tip.  I didn't even think of that.

Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Stormchild on June 18, 2007, 08:24:45 PM
tayana... she was a decorator?

oh, that explains so much. her entire life was about surfaces and appearances, about image.

i'm not putting down decorators, a really good decorator will bring out the 'soul' of a place. just saying... there are a lot of not so good ones out there who are just into the latest 'look'; every place they 'do' feels empty and cold.

CB is right. when meanness fails, she'll probably try the 'helpful' thing next. It's about control.

But that's not the end of the line. When that fails, watch for her to try the 'frosty superior attitude' thing. That's a  fallback position when an N realizes you've got his or her number but good; the nose goes into the air and the fingers go into the ears. [And at least in the case of my mother, the rumors go into the mill, and the knives go into the back ;-) ].

This will still be about control, but not about controlling you; once she realizes she can't control you, she'll shift her efforts to controlling others' perceptions of her and of you. Image management. Once Ns discover this behavior, they resort to it very quickly when someone is 'on' to them and refuses to be controlled by them. It's basically the mean routine, left in the freezer overnight.

Since she's already giving you the silent treatment, hopefully she'll move into this mode sooner rather than later. It will give you a break. However, don't let your guard down. Given her past criminal history, she's perfectly capable of further escapades involving your money and her mitts, regardless of which act she happens to be putting on at any given time.

Edit in: This is basically your standard bully behavior. I've been on and off the site this last week, I think it was elculbr who found Tim Field's bullying site, let me put a link here and see if you recognize the symptoms.

http://www.bullyonline.org/familybully/index.htm  this is the family bullying page

this is the attention-seeker profile - on first glance it does look a lot like your mother's patterns

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm#Types

hope this helps. the more you understand, the better your conscious defenses can become...
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Sela on June 18, 2007, 08:25:46 PM
Tayana,

Sorry I've been spelling your name wrong in my posts.

I just noticed and feel badly.  I didn't look closely enough.

 :oops: Sela
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 18, 2007, 09:23:55 PM
Not a problem, Sela.

Stormy, yes she was a decorator, and so we always hear about how well she could do, or how good she was, etc.

She tried to talk to me about the weather earlier, but I wasn't having any.  If you ask her, I'm the one giving her the silent treatment.  It works two ways though.  The helpful thing will be even worse.

And I'm sure she'll badmouth me to everyone she knows and tell them how awful I am and that I think she was mean to my son.

Thanks for the links.  I do agree with the attention seeker profile.  That's definitely her.  I have played on the bullyonline website before in regards to a bully boss.  That was a real treat a bully mom and a bully boss.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: lighter on June 18, 2007, 10:04:41 PM
Ami,

I can't pretend to understand her.  I can't pretend that I understand this idea that this is all about her.  The truth is she's never forgiven me for getting pregnant when I was 22.  She was hateful about that.  She's made plenty of biting, punishing comments about how I've shamed her for my mistake.  This whole thing is not about moving.  It's about defiance.  I'm defying her.  I'm saying, what we've got here isn't working, it's time for something new.  She doesn't like that because she always has to be right.  I've managed to get another perspective on the situation, and I see how truly dysfunctional this model is.  I have committed the ultimate sin and I have broken the silence.

It is a sort of death, although I don't think I'm really mourning the loss of the mother/daughter relationship.  We don't really have one.  We have a mockery of that.  I'm mourning that I'm never going to have that, and I'm going to have to find a replacement for that relationship.

Am I courageous?  Maybe.  I know I was certainly scared last night, and I said what I needed to say anyway.  I tried to give voice to my hurt, but it didn't happen.  She wouldn't listen to me.  My voice didn't matter.  I'm probably going to have to undo whatever she's done to my son today.  As my brother pointed out, he's been used against me.  Every time I've tried to break away, she's there to twist that knife.  There was a point a few months ago that I really began to resent my son because I'd never gotten the chance to live.  It wasn't his fault.  But I was projecting my anger onto him.  My mother quickly pointed out that I've yelled at him, and I have.  I'm  not proud of that, but I do know that those moments when he tries my patience most are when she has been ragging on us, and that gets me tense and that tension erupts.  I do not, however spend every conversation with my son, seeing how much I can criticize him. He's got enough problems, he doesn't need criticisms.

I'm torn between giving you a hug and a pat, for staying strong and moving forward....

and being so f'n ticked off at your mother for using your son and manipulating your entire family.......

doing harm for no rhyme or reason. 

((((tayana)))) (((((M)))))) There's the hugs. 

Getting out of your mother's home is going to be a breath of fresh air and I quoted your post bc it was so powerful, it bears repeating. 

You will have more room for support systems that actually work for you, now that you've stopped pretending your parents ever provided one.  I was so happy to see you writing about that.  This is soooo important.   

Just a reminder, has the DA decided what he can and can't do with regard to charging your mother with her criminal actions? 

Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Hopalong on June 18, 2007, 11:11:31 PM
My mother always said her alternate career, if she'd gone that way, would've been interior decorating.

We live in a house choked with tchotkes, sentimental decorations, needlework done to patterns, and too much furniture. It was basically decorated when they built it in 1965. Then dipped in amber.

She does have a sense of elegance but doesn't notice when the space is overrun. ('Course, I am overrun too, but I loathe it. For her, the space has always been by extension, Just Right As It Is.)

One of the most hurtful things she ever said to me (I who also love beauty and care about art)...when she was toying with me about whether I could inherit the house and stay, was:

"Well, you know a house in this neighborhood needs to be furnished and kept up in a certain way, and you can't do that..."

I suddenly realized that rather than have her "taste" overruled after her passing, she'd rather let the house my Dad built and my Great-Uncle designed, go to strangers. It would be better to have me tucked away in an apartment somewhere, rather than Let the Neighbors See what I might do...

Now I think that battle's over. Funnily enough, I have no plans to paint the brick purple, I see the pleasing proportions. It needs emptying, then some renovations I can't afford...but ultimately, it's a gracious structure with good bones. Mainly, I want to EMPTY it. And then choose color.

If I have nothing more than rooms with colors of my choosing, that will be bliss enough.

Hops
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: gratitude28 on June 18, 2007, 11:27:09 PM
Tayana,
You did a great job!! I can only imagine how hard it must have been to do... I have never dealt with my mother on this level.
May I make one recommendation? Extremely limit the exposure your son has to your mother. She will try to get back at you, and she will hurt your son, just as she has you. Do you want her telling your son you are a whore, or some such thing that she says to you??? You have done such a good job with him and this whole situation. Do not let her butt in, just because of your guilt. She is cruel, and will never change.
((((((((((((((((Tayana))))))))))))))))))
Love, Beth
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Hopalong on June 18, 2007, 11:55:18 PM
Wise words, Beth.

Tayana, my biggest regret in my D's childhood is that I allowed my Nmother to nearly take over--she, my D, is trying to cope with the damage even now, at 26--and I think she's got many years of "debriefing" to go.

I think M is lucky that his mother is creating space for him to be who he is, and be loved by his Mom without someone hovering over her shoulder.

Go out and find resources for the support of your little family. Find your own community of good accepting friends. You deserve them. When you create that, you bring M the gift of extended family...aunts! Loads of aunts!  :)

He can hang around as a bunch of good free women sing, carry on, support each other and face life respecting ech other. He can go to potlucks, he can enjoy them coming over for potlucks. He can tag along when you go to art class, join a women's choir. He can get used to the noise that comes from people who are happy, rather than people who are angry.

You can create all this for him. And you can create it for you, too.

Hope you will!
love
Hops
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 19, 2007, 09:59:00 AM
Quote
Just a reminder, has the DA decided what he can and can't do with regard to charging your mother with her criminal actions? 

Lighter, I won't know anything about this until Monday, after the motion to dismiss the judgment.  I'm hoping that goes as well as my lawyer expects it to.  Then I think we have to go back to court with the creditor to have them drop it.  If my mom would cooperate, which she won't since she still denies she had anything to do with this, it would probably end there.  If not, then we'll have to go through a huge court proceeding, and that's where it might go to the DA.

Quote
Getting out of your mother's home is going to be a breath of fresh air and I quoted your post bc it was so powerful, it bears repeating. 

I think when we are moved, I'm just going to collapse in the floor and cry with relief.

Quote
Tayana, my biggest regret in my D's childhood is that I allowed my Nmother to nearly take over--she, my D, is trying to cope with the damage even now, at 26--and I think she's got many years of "debriefing" to go.

Hops, I regret letting my mom have as much control as she did.  I'm hoping it's not too late to undo some of what my mother has done.  He is a little self-centered, like her, although he has moments of real compassion.  He's very concerned with the environment and animals and animal habitats.  We have a lot of things we don't need, and I thought maybe, having him donate some of the toys he no longer plays with might be a good exercise for him in learning to be compassionate to others.   My mom has kept him very isolated on the farm.  He's never been allowed to have other children over.  He's not been allowed to go to other children's houses, or birthday parties, or anything like that.  He has really been expected to be a little adult.  Her thing is not to push him into doing to many things, not to get him involved in activities, because he needs time to be a kid.  Mostly she told me when she called me at work yesterday, he does as he pleases all day.  Until I get home, then she starts screaming at him to pick up his things, eat his dinner, etc.  So he is constantly pestering everyone for attention because he spends all day doing as he pleases.

Her argument when I said something about sending him to camp was:  "I Thought you were going to get him involved in some things over the summer.  Instead you're going to send him over to that Rec-Plex where he doesn't know anyone.  His autism will get worse.  You just watch."

Please understand, getting him involved in some things was to send him to a different camp where I currently live.  He wouldn't have known anyone then.  And my gut tells me his autism won't get worse.  Camp won't be like school.  It'll be fun, and he'll get to do all sorts of things he'll enjoy.  I mean what kid wouldn't enjoy painting, drawing and playing with clay all day?  And as for not knowing anyone, anything he did he would have been in the same position.  At least going to two or three camps gives him the chance to make friends.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 19, 2007, 10:46:36 AM
Arrgh . . . so now she calls me at work to ask if she wants me to get boxes.  Of course, I need boxes, so I said yes. 

So then she rags me out over what I'm going to do with M on the one night a month I have to work twenty minutes late.  I will figure out something.  I have a month to figure that out.  Arrgh! 
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 19, 2007, 01:25:04 PM
Got my keys.  There's no turning back now.

Of course, that place looked a lot smaller when I walked through it today.  Oh well, it's still mine.  I'm trying to figure out where my "office" is going to be.  It's currently in a 5X7 space, so small is not an issue there.

My son is going to be disappointed that he's going to lose a piece of furniture, but my mom gave it to me, and I think it's hideous.  I never wanted it, but she insisted.  I think though, we can easily get everything else in his room, with a little creativity, and he does have a large closet.  We can take down the extra shelves and he can stack his crates of toys in there. Or maybe we could get a different shelving system.  I'm going to go Sunday and clean and move some things in.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Hopalong on June 19, 2007, 01:42:44 PM
Do you want me to get boxes, Tayana?

Yes thanks.

Now what are you going to do about M's blah blah on the day blah blah...

I'll take care of that. Thanks for getting boxes, got to go.

Hanging up now, talk to you later. Bye-bye. Click.


CLICK is a really good thing to learn. When your voice is polite and YOU have closed the conversation by specifically (in a calm voice) explaining "I need to hang up now" without waiting for an answer that approves of your need or gives permission for you to have that need...then YOU ARE ALLOWED TO DISCONNECT THE PHONE EVEN IF YOU CAN HEAR HER INTAKE OF BREATH FOR HER NEXT QUESTION OR EVEN IF SHE IS IN THE MIDDLE OF A SYLLABLE.

I seem to have discovered yell-type. Shout-type. No idea, I think it's hormonal, but please know I'm not yelling at you, Tay! It's just that everything I just typed in caps was an enormous, life-changing revelation to me.

I am not meaning to lecture with the all-caps either. Tell me if it's offensive. I just get revved up...because I remember in assertiveness training when someone taught me this concept I was absolutely flabbergasted. Courtesy and etiquette had contributed to my voicelessness, and I didn't know that I could choose to keep my voice calm, courteous, mature and sensible and still hang up when the other hadn't finished.

Basic things I did not know were that I was allowed (by the loving universe to):

Hang up before the caller was ready because I was ready
Not answer the phone if I was home
Answer the doorbell or not answer the doorbell
Not open an envelope that comes in the mail
Return mail to sender
Throw mail in trash without returning to sender
Not reply to an email
Block a sender
Not reply to a phone call asking if I got the email
Not explain myself if someone asks why I don't like to email
Say "no, I'd rather not" if someone wanted a key
Say "I'd rather not go into it" if someone asked why
Say "How about them Cowboys?" if someone asked why I wouldn't answer why
Say "No thank you" if someone foisted gifts (i.e., furniture) on me that I didn't want
Say "No thank you" to anything offered that I did not want, even if it were that I were dying and needed a kidney and they offered their kidney and it was a perfect match but I did not want it I could say NO, thank you.

Really. Assertiveness is just astonishing. My favorite bit was when they did demonstrations that included no spite, no hostility, no heat, no zingers, no manipulation, just NO. A hundred ways to peacefully, serenely say NO.

Still boggles my mind.

Slower learner, me.
Hops
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: debkor on June 19, 2007, 01:53:54 PM
Tayana,

I'm sorry about the confrontation.  I remember those days.  You think that maybe something from space will zap their brain and they will actually be nice and supportive but never happens.

Anyway you are on your way to sitting on your couch, Peace.  Talking to your son, Peace.  Watching TV, peace. Things will get better now.  You won't be so on top of it any more. You have your own place not just another room.  Separation, priceless.

Lots of good wishes to you.

You go girl!!  You did it!!

Love Deb
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 19, 2007, 02:04:02 PM
Hops,

The conversation went along the lines of this:

Her:  I'm going to the grocery store.  Do you want me to get some boxes.
Me: Yes, thanks.
Her: Well, I'll probably have to reserve them
Me: Okay
Her: (Rambles on about how small a space this is)
Me: Politely ignoring her ramble.  Bye.

Hops, I know how you feel about saying "No."  I have such a hard time saying no to people.  I wonder what she's going to say when I say, "This is all the furniture I want."  I want the extra couch, the one chair, and the dining room table and chairs you've been complaining about.  That's it!  No more.  I don't have space for that and all of my furniture too.  Sorry. 

Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Hopalong on June 19, 2007, 02:46:47 PM
Wow. That was a great example, Tayana...I'm impressed!

I think you'll do fine about furniture.

And life.

Hops
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 19, 2007, 03:18:30 PM
She's being quite nasty right now.  She acts like it's killing her to offer any sort of help, so that maybe I'll change my mind.  Or that I'll come to my senses and stop this nonsense, but I think I already came to my senses in getting away from her.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: lighter on June 19, 2007, 03:36:23 PM
Hops I was just discussing "assertiveness" with a friend today.  She thinks that most women are either passive or aggressive, but we just don't understand assertiveness, which is somewhere in between, according to her.



tayana: 
I can imagine you'll be strong enough to get yourself into your new space then break down and fall apart for a while.  Fairly standard for me too.  I'm always amazed at how strong I am at hospitals and during crisis then I completely fall apart afterwards, but we get it back together afterwards.  It's OK.

Keep your eye on the ball, if the DA thinks he can prosecute then he prosecutes.  If not, you let it go and keep moving in a positve direction.  I'm just glad you're on top of it and I'm so proud of you! 

(((tayana)))  Make that little apartment a safe haven for you and your son.   How you feel there is more important than being able to fit one more piece of furniture into a room.  Your son will settle and you'll be an ever better mother without all that negative energy keeping you on edge.  You're a very good mommy, btw; ) 
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 19, 2007, 03:49:01 PM
Lighter,

I tend to be a pretty easy going person, yes really, I can let lots of things just go.  So I guess I'm more passive by nature, but I've learned to be more assertive in the last few years.  I guess about the time I turned 30.  I started to get tired of everyone taking advantage of me and said something about it, and it felt good.  I've done pretty good professionally, but I don't do so well with my parents.

If the DA chooses to prosecute, he may do so with my blessing. 

My breakdowns don't tend to last long.  I'll be looking around and wanting to start putting things together.

I feel like a pretty tired mommy right now.  Last night, I went home with every intention of doing something productive, only it's like my mom just sucks all the energy out of you, and I just ended up laying on the bed.  I was so tired.  I'm tired today too.  Don't know why.  I just am.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Ami on June 19, 2007, 06:47:30 PM
Tayana,
   You are doing so very well. I am really proud  of you                      Love Ami
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Hopalong on June 19, 2007, 08:26:26 PM
I know why you're tired!
Hey! Be on your own side and ask yourself what you'd say to a friend who had to do a primal battle with her mother for the sake of not only her own emotional survival but that of her autistic child.

Would you say...whatssa matta with you? I don't know why you're so tired....

((((((((Tayana, exhausted for excellent reasons)))))

Hops
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: lighter on June 19, 2007, 08:36:36 PM
Rest when you need to rest.  Be kind to yourself.  You'll feel better when the anxiety isn't so extreme. 

Goodness, who wouldn't be exhausted while living in the lion's den?!?!?



About turning 30. 

30 is the time to quit making the same old mistakes.

it's time to make new mistakes. 

I always liked that saying. 

(((tayana)))

It's a shame but, you can't change your parents.  All you can do is control your expectations and how you deal with the craziness.  You're doing great.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 19, 2007, 08:50:25 PM
I brought a bunch of boxes home and I was all set to do some serious packing, but I can't seem to find the energy.  So I'm going to rest.  I think I'll go do some laundry, in fact.  All my mother does is sit downstairs like a d***ed hawk, watching TV.  She even left the table tonight when M started talking about moving.  She graciously offered me some excess kitchen items, and M was going on and on about all of the stuff.  She she just got up and left.

She told M that she would be all alone when we left.  Now remember, she does nothing but complain about my dog, my kid, everything.  She complains about the dog getting hair everywhere.  She complains about having to fix lunch.  Half the time when I call home, she'll say something like "I'm going to kill this kid . . ."  M has seemed very clingy and wanting attention all of a sudden.  I'm not sure why.

I could just strangle her for trying that guilt crap on a 10 year old though.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Hopalong on June 19, 2007, 09:53:54 PM
Hey T,
Hope you can pluck up the energy to tell M,

"Your grandma is wrong to say that kind of thing.
It's not nice to say something to make a wonderful boy like you feel bad?

That's crazy!"

etc
Hops
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 19, 2007, 10:21:52 PM
He didn't seem too upset about it really.  It was more of a stray comment on his part, so I didn't react too much, even though I was fuming inside.  I sort of take my cues from him, if he's really upset, then I would say something.  I've confronted my mom before over things she's said to him about me.  She denies it of course, but she is a little more conscientious about what she says for a few days.  So, I'll wait and see.  If he starts to feel upset about it, then I'll say something.  So far it's not affecting him too much.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Hopalong on June 19, 2007, 10:53:34 PM
Trust your judgment, T.

Hops
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 20, 2007, 10:15:21 AM
Hops,

Well, last night after he'd gone to bed and been in bed about fifteen minutes, he came and got into bed with me.  He had written me a note that said he was too sad to sleep.  He was sad because he was thinking about Grandma being all alone, and he didn't want her to be alone.  He was trying to think of ways to keep her from being lonely.  This at least tells me he's got some empathy for others after all.  I was starting to worry.  So, I said, it was wrong of Grandma to tell you that and you don't have to feel bad because she's going to be lonely.  She has the ability to change that.  So then he was talking about ways to keep her from being lonely, and I told him again that it was all right if he was mad at me about this move, but that we would be fine.  I hope that was okay.  I also told him I would stop asking him what Grandma had told him during the day, but that I would keep asking how he felt about moving.

So this morning, my mother was lying in wait for me.  She has progressed from being angry and hurtful, to helpful and hurtful.  Here was the gist of the conversation, and apparently she's been expecting this for five years, but I sure was fooled.

She tells me, "You might as well get off your high horse because you'll need our help."

Now remember, I was not the one who pitched a major hissy and didn't speak for three days unless it was to spew out more hurtful comments.  So then she starts asking normal questions about the apartment.  Does it have a microwave?  How big are the closets?  those kinds of questions.

Then I get, "Are you going to have to use M's money to get into this apartment?"

"No.  I can use my own money."

Like I'm so destitute that I can't afford this.   I've been saving and planning for several years to be able to move.

Then we get more normal questions, and then, "Well I think you should let M come out here for 3 or 4 days a week to start with."  She doesn't offer to meet me or anything, just that.  Then she tells me.  "And he'll have to come out there because I'm not able to drive in rush hour traffic, and I can barely get things done around here, and I surely won't get anything done sitting down there for five days a week."

Thanks mom.  I love making two of the drives I was trying to get rid of.  I said, "Well I sort of thought he might be able to come out here some during the summer."

"Well your father and I will probably stay here through the winter, but it'll cost a fortune to heat this house.  He's not able to move, but he's going to.  He's been having blackouts.  He had blackouts on Monday."  She said this in a manner to indicate that I was the cause of his blackouts. 

"I thought maybe M could come out here some during the summer, and then when school is out.  And the week of the ninth since he's supposed to go to Bible school--"

"I don't know that he's going to Bible school.  He doesn't want to go.  I've been trying to get him to go to church for three weeks and he won't go."

We talked about my pans in the basement for a few minutes.  Then, "Do you have any sort of yard at all."

"A patio."

"And it's enclosed?"

"Yes."

"Well maybe the dog can go out there to pee."

"I had sort of thought that, especially at night."

"So Michael has someplace he can get outside."

"Yes."  And since the park is so close, I Really thought we'd go to the park when the weather's nice, take the dog and just relax some.  I didn't tell her that though.  I would have gotten the child molester lecture.

Then I got interrogated (that's the only word I can use) on the size of each and every room.  I finally had to leave for work.

Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Hopalong on June 20, 2007, 12:52:52 PM
Hey Tay,
There's no winning in talk with an N and nobody EVER could be prepared with all the right responses. So keep that in mind when you read this "fantasy hindsight dialogue edit" But maybe some of it will help you in another round. (I must be a frustrated playwright)...
--------------
"You might as well get off your high horse because you'll need our help."
--Thanks for offering to help. I'll let you know.

"Are you going to have to use M's money to get into this apartment?"
--Actually that's a private matter, I would prefer not to discuss my family finances.

or--just:

--No.

"Well I think you should let M come out here for 3 or 4 days a week to start with."
--Thanks for the offer. I'll think about it and let you know.
(If she repeats, you repeat: I'll think about it and let you know. Calm friendly voice, just serene. You can repeat this a couple times. If she's huffy, let her huff. You're too busy to hang around and scrutinize her expression.)

"And he'll have to come out there because I'm not able to drive in rush hour traffic, and I can barely get things done around here, and I surely won't get anything done sitting down there for five days a week."
--Thanks for your offer. I haven't decided what to arrange yet. I'll remember your offer doesn't include driving.

I said, "Well I sort of thought he might be able to come out here some during the summer."
--Would you like M to come out here some during the summer and after school? And he's scheduled for Bible School the week of the 9th.

"Well your father and I will probably stay here through the winter, but it'll cost a fortune to heat this house.  He's not able to move, but he's going to.  He's been having blackouts.  He had blackouts on Monday."  She said this in a manner to indicate that I was the cause of his blackouts.
--I'm sorry to hear Dad's been having blackouts. 

"I don't know that he's going to Bible school.  He doesn't want to go.  I've been trying to get him to go to church for three weeks and he won't go."
--I see. Well, I will decide whether M is going to Bible School, and I'll be in charge of talking with him about it. We may attend a different church. I'll think about it and let you know.

We talked about my pans in the basement for a few minutes.  Then, "Do you have any sort of yard at all."

"A patio."

"And it's enclosed?"

"Yes."

"Well maybe the dog can go out there to pee."

"Yes, especially at night."
(I'd stop saying "I had sort of thought..." it's very tentative. It's okay to speak directly and with adult confidence and without sarcasm to your mother, even if you're faking it. ACT like a confident mother and you will BECOME one. Just consider the faking-part practice. You won't have her drip-drip-drip confidence-hammering in your ears for long now, so when you do hear it you're going to be better prepared to respond like a confident adult woman who is also THE MOTHER, not the SECOND BANANA.

"So Michael has someplace he can get outside."

"Yes." 

Good going, Tayana. It's exhausting...and that's why you're moving!!! You'll get control of your own buttons with practice, and you also will just be BUSY.

Do throw yourself into finding other resources/camps/programs for M ASAP. He does not need her influence. It's toxic to his developing mind. You don't need to discuss it with him unless he needs to talk about her. You just need to begin involving him in his own childhood. He's suffocating in the tension between you and her. He loves her, and on their weekly or whatever visits, he can try to enjoy her. But he's not going to fit her mold forever, since you're helping him have a chance not to.

She is REALLY TOXIC. And I hope you can limit the time with her severely. And preferably counter every toxic remark she makes with a confident/adult/mother correction every time you hear it.

I know how desperately difficult it is to find adequate day care arrangements, but do your best. I deferred to my Nmother's constantly availability for my D, and it was a huge mistake. I was an exhausted single parent too...I know what it's like. That's why I caved and let my D spend tons of time every week with them.

love and much support
Hops

Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 20, 2007, 01:43:26 PM
Hops, I've been trying to practice non-combative, factual statements with her.  I'll work on the I sort of thought thing.  She has decided to be helpful now since I'm not changing my mind.

She called me at lunch, this would be the fourth time I've talked to her since getting to work.  We have been going around and around over the moving truck to the point where I'm ready to cancel it and hire a moving company.  This last time she called me to tell me to make sure the truck has a walkway not a lift. 

She also said:

"I bought you a set of dishes."

"Thank you."

"If you don't like them you can take them back."

"Where'd you get them."

"Wal-mart.  I only bought a set a four, if you like them then you buy another set.  I thought M and I would go shopping tomorrow."

"I wanted to buy some things of my own."

"Well, I'm not trying to decorate your house for you.  I figured you'd want to buy some things of your own.  But you're going to need some things like a toaster, as much toast and bagels as the two of you eat."

I didn't say anything.

"And you need a tablecloth for this table.  I was going to get you one of those and some placemats." 

I listen quietly fuming, because she is decorating my house.

"And I assume you are going to want to put your mixer out."

"yes."

Thinking, "No I'm going to leave my $200 mixer in the box for you.  I didn't buy it for you.  I bought it for me."  I'm really wanting off the phone by this time.

"How many windows are there?"

Tell her about the windows.

"Is there blinds on those windows?"

"Yes, mini-blinds."

"Well, that's good."

"Are you going to be able to find a curtain to match this one you've got?"

"No, because that was the only pair of those they had when I got them."

"Oh.  Well, I think you can find another pair."

Finally, get off the phone, and I think, "God, I liked it better when she was being hateful."


Quote
Do throw yourself into finding other resources/camps/programs for M ASAP. He does not need her influence. It's toxic to his developing mind. You don't need to discuss it with him unless he needs to talk about her. You just need to begin involving him in his own childhood. He's suffocating in the tension between you and her. He loves her, and on their weekly or whatever visits, he can try to enjoy her. But he's not going to fit her mold forever, since you're helping him have a chance not to.

She is REALLY TOXIC. And I hope you can limit the time with her severely. And preferably counter every toxic remark she makes with a confident/adult/mother correction every time you hear it.

I know how desperately difficult it is to find adequate day care arrangements, but do your best. I deferred to my Nmother's constantly availability for my D, and it was a huge mistake. I was an exhausted single parent too...I know what it's like. That's why I caved and let my D spend tons of time every week with them.

Hops, what really made me mad is that she wants M to spend time with her, but she wants me to double my driving, which was one of the reasons for moving, to be closer to work.  She didn't offer to meet me halfway.  She just flat said she wouldn't drive, which means if he wants to go out there, then I have to drive him.  We'll have to leave really early, so I can get back to work on time.  I don't see the benefit.

I'm going to show the camps to M and let him pick what he wants to do, and I'll figure out something to do with pick up/drop off times with my boss.  Maybe I can do some flex time or something so that I can take him and pick him up.

He told me last night he doesn't want me to talk with Grandma about the things she's been saying to him because then she'll only be madder at me.  So I didn't say anything to her.

I know she's very toxic.  Since this move has become reality, I have just felt so much better, and I'm sure I'll feel even better once we're there.  I don't care if we are going to be cramped.

She gave me a lecture on buying a washer/dryer to.  I wanted to buy a new one because the store will deliver and install the things, rather than have to rely on family to do that.  I just haven't told her that.  I let her ramble.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Ami on June 20, 2007, 02:18:55 PM
Dear Tayana
  What hits me as an underlying theme is that you simply  can not please an N. You cannot do or say the 'right" thing to make it' O.K."
   I have always thought that I could make it O.K.,if I only found the 'magic potion". I did everything ,as I am sure you have. She hated me as much no matter what I did.If I did well, she ridiculed me for "needing to do well"( she was above that). If I did poorly, she ridiculed me for "being a loser"
   This was my life. I could never find that "fine" balance that would be just right and give me her love.
    The "key" to   unlocking her love could never be found.                                 Love  Ami
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 20, 2007, 02:27:02 PM
Ami,

I have always tried to please her, and it just doesn't work.  She doesn't like anything I do.  It wouldn't matter if I hit the lottery and won 800 million dollars, I wouldn't be doing something right.  She'd tell me how to spend my money.

I've had to accept that nothing is going to please her, no matter what, and that the only person I can make happy is myself.  I wrote about that yesterday on my blog. http://tayana.blogspot.com (http://tayana.blogspot.com)  So I just had to give up trying to please her.  She isn't happy with me living with her, but she doesn't want me to move either.  She makes no sense, and it's a waste of my energy trying to understand her.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Hopalong on June 20, 2007, 04:10:20 PM
"I bought you a set of dishes."

NO THANKS...I DON'T KNOW WHAT I NEED YET.  "Thank you."

"If you don't like them you can take them back."
I WON'T TAKE THEM, YOU CAN RETURN THEM. PLEASE DON'T BUY ANYTHING FOR THE APT. WITHOUT ASKING ME FIRST. I HAVEN'T DECIDED WHAT I WANT TO HAVE THERE.

"Where'd you get them."

"Wal-mart.  I only bought a set a four, if you like them then you buy another set.  I thought M and I would go shopping tomorrow."

"I wanted to buy some things of my own."
I DO NOT WANT YOU SHOPPING FOR US RIGHT NOW. I'LL THINK ABOUT IT AND LET YOU KNOW.

"Well, I'm not trying to decorate your house for you.  I figured you'd want to buy some things of your own.  But you're going to need some things like a toaster, as much toast and bagels as the two of you eat."
I WILL FIGURE OUT AND LET YOU KNOW. DON'T BUY US ANYTHING NOW.

I didn't say anything.

"And you need a tablecloth for this table.  I was going to get you one of those and some placemats." 
NO--I WILL DECIDE WHAT WE NEED. I'LL THINK ABOUT IT AND LET YOU KNOW.

I listen quietly fuming, because she is decorating my house.
[NEW TAYANA NEVER STUFFS HER RESISTANCE TO CONTROL. SHE DOESN'T FUME, SHE SAYS NO.]

"And I assume you are going to want to put your mixer out."
I WILL THINK ABOUT THAT, I HAVE TO HANG UP NOW.

"yes."

Thinking, "No I'm going to leave my $200 mixer in the box for you.  I didn't buy it for you.  I bought it for me."  I'm really wanting off the phone by this time.

"How many windows are there?"
I HAVE TO HANG UP, GOODBYE NOW. CLICK.

You get the idea. When my D was trying to "unmesh" me (thank god), she retrained me re. no rambling phone chats. Because "chatting" isn't safe turf when you're emotionally vulnerable to someone and are trying to feel more independent. So she'd practically say, what is the purpose of this call please, and just wanted Yes or No type stuff, for a long while. I think it helped us both separate.

I know you're aware of it already, but imo, you need to set boundaries when she's mean, when she's nice, when she's on the phone, with your son, in person, EVERYWHERE. And her entitlement is outrageous, to call you so often at work.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 20, 2007, 04:40:33 PM
Hops,

Does this mean I can tell her I don't want the ugly lamp tables she wants to give me?  She told me I could use them, but I couldn't get rid of them.  I hated them when she had them in our living room.  The glass shows fingerprints and will have dog slobbers on it all the time.  I don't want them, plus they are ugly.

I didn't do so well with that conversation, did I?  Hmm, I'll have to do better in the future.

Hops, there are days she will call at work, and I'll be busy and away from my desk.  She won't leave a message, she'll just hang up.  Then when I do finally get a chance to call, she demands to know where I've been, as if I'm doing something behind her back. 

I was thinking this is probably how a divorce must go, because I can't compare it to anything else. 
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: debkor on June 20, 2007, 05:10:39 PM
Tay,

Oh my, 

from reading your post about your mom I CAN'T BREATH!!  what a freaking choke hold she puts you in.  She is smothering!!

Maybe you won't have enough dishes or the best washing machine and dryer but what a Breath of Fresh Air you will be breathing!!!!!!

Now Tay how can you get her to stop calling you at work?

And don't worry about being annoyed with her because
IT'S ALMOST DONE!!!!!!


Hang in there kiddo.
Count down time.

Deb
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 20, 2007, 05:17:31 PM
Deb,

She is very smothering.  Like I said, I liked it when she wasn't helping at all. 

She'll never stop calling me at work.  The best I can do is not answer outside calls and let them go to voice mail.  If it's business related, they'll leave a message or call my other line.  Luckily, I never gave her the extension for my other line. 

I found a perfectly nice washer and dryer at Sears for around $600.  It as on sale even.  She wants me to buy a used one, but I don't really want to.

I know it's almost done, but I just want to scream with her helpful comments.  And even worse, her acting like I'm one step from the poor house.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: debkor on June 20, 2007, 06:45:38 PM
Tay,

She is hoping for you to be scared and think you can't make it on your own.  In reality she is the one who can't make it on her own and is afraid.

Wow she is pulling out everything she has left (tactics).  I'll tell you N's never cease to amaze me. They just don't stop. They keep going and going then going some more.

Geeze we all here on this board could do a tape, like the Jerry Springer Tapes  *Narcissist gone Wild*
Could you imagine that?  It would either be Hilarious funny or the worst Horror Movie anyone has seen. 

How long do you have left before your in your new home Tay?

Deb


Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Stormchild on June 20, 2007, 09:06:40 PM
Hi tayana

Been reading your blog

:cool: :cool: :cool:

what a brave chronicle!

On subject, now, I just wanted to chime in to say that actually it's possible yo' mama will eventually stop calling.

The trick is to outlast her. That's the trick. Ns know this trick... their objective is to wear US down. So they keep at us, and keep at us, until we give in to their demands, whatever they may be.

What you do, you get yourself a wall. And you go behind it and you stay behind it, and you stay behind it until she quits beating her head against it and goes away. You must face the fact that this may take months, or more, though.

At work, you already have a wall; you have a voice mail system that rolls your calls over after X number of rings, and you have an alternate line. Fortunately, you also apparently work with reasonable people, so you aren't likely to be hassled because you are letting calls roll over as a way of filtering her out.

[Question: is it safe, are the people you work for safe enough, for you to tell them that your mother is harassing you, if you find that you must explain yourself about this? You might want to prepare a detached way of explaining it, in advance, in case of need. Perhaps focusing on the impact on the business of you being sidelined by mommysitting while the work you need to do is interrupted... and this isn't emotionally good for your dear mother, either... so you have taken charge and are doing the hard but necessary thing... weaning her off calling you at work... etc. It's just possible that you could make a case for getting Caller ID on your phone at work, if the rollover strategy becomes a problem.]

At home: Caller ID and voicemail. You may want to get Call Waiting also, with voicemail. Not because you want to take her calls in the middle of talking to friends, but because of this wonderful feature: -- with call waiting, she will NEVER get a busy signal. You'll get the little silent beeps, but she will hear the phone ringing, then roll over to vmail. As long as your vmail doesn't rat you out ['tayana is on the phone'], she'll NEVER know when you are on the phone. And THAT means that she'll NEVER know for sure if you are there or not when she calls. This is one of the most blissful unintended side effects of call waiting -- as long as you have voicemail with it and incoming calls roll over. --

Also you might read Gavin de Becker, "The Gift of Fear". IMO, your mother is, for all intents and purposes, stalking you, and his advice about stalkers may stand you in good stead.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Stormchild on June 20, 2007, 09:25:11 PM
Ami,

I have always tried to please her, and it just doesn't work.  She doesn't like anything I do.  It wouldn't matter if I hit the lottery and won 800 million dollars, I wouldn't be doing something right.  She'd tell me how to spend my money.

I've had to accept that nothing is going to please her, no matter what, and that the only person I can make happy is myself.  I wrote about that yesterday on my blog. http://tayana.blogspot.com (http://tayana.blogspot.com)  So I just had to give up trying to please her.  She isn't happy with me living with her, but she doesn't want me to move either.  She makes no sense, and it's a waste of my energy trying to understand her.

Ah na na. She makes PERFECT sense. It's always about controlling you, keeping you off balance, getting the upper hand.

This is the essence of abuse. This is what abuse is about.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 20, 2007, 10:09:34 PM
Deb,  I'm moving on the 30th, or at least that's when my furniture is moving.  I'm moving a lot of my kitchen stuff tomorrow.  The dishes she bought me were broke!  I did actually like them, so tonight she took me shopping, yes, I gritted my teeth and went.  And I bought the dishes myself, along with a new toaster (not the one she liked) and some other things.  Now, I know the real reason for her sudden generosity.  She's going to give me the television in our living room, and the dvd player that really belongs to me anyway.  I bought it.  So now, she's going to go buy new things for herself, and I just get the castoffs.  Gee, made me feel really wanted.  Moving on the 30th, that should be our first night there.

Quote
She is hoping for you to be scared and think you can't make it on your own.  In reality she is the one who can't make it on her own and is afraid.

Wow she is pulling out everything she has left (tactics).  I'll tell you N's never cease to amaze me. They just don't stop. They keep going and going then going some more.

Yes, I know what she's doing.  She doesn't think I can do this, unfortunately for her, I think I can.  She could never live on her own.  She told me that once.

Quote
[Question: is it safe, are the people you work for safe enough, for you to tell them that your mother is harassing you, if you find that you must explain yourself about this? You might want to prepare a detached way of explaining it, in advance, in case of need. Perhaps focusing on the impact on the business of you being sidelined by mommysitting while the work you need to do is interrupted... and this isn't emotionally good for your dear mother, either... so you have taken charge and are doing the hard but necessary thing... weaning her off calling you at work... etc. It's just possible that you could make a case for getting Caller ID on your phone at work, if the rollover strategy becomes a problem.]

At home: Caller ID and voicemail. You may want to get Call Waiting also, with voicemail. Not because you want to take her calls in the middle of talking to friends, but because of this wonderful feature: -- with call waiting, she will NEVER get a busy signal. You'll get the little silent beeps, but she will hear the phone ringing, then roll over to vmail. As long as your vmail doesn't rat you out ['tayana is on the phone'], she'll NEVER know when you are on the phone. And THAT means that she'll NEVER know for sure if you are there or not when she calls. This is one of the most blissful unintended side effects of call waiting -- as long as you have voicemail with it and incoming calls roll over. --

Also you might read Gavin de Becker, "The Gift of Fear". IMO, your mother is, for all intents and purposes, stalking you, and his advice about stalkers may stand you in good stead.

Stormy, I just got my phone set up today with all of the goodies and internet in a package deal.  Of course, she didn't like what I'd set up and harped on how high my phone bill was going to be.  I just didn't say anything.  She said, "You should have got what we've got."  I do have call waiting and caller ID and voice mail.

"I have got exactly what you go, only I added the internet to it."  She didn't say anything else.

I've told one of my co-workers who seems fairly trustworthy a little of what's going on, just because she kept calling me and after I stood my ground on the phone, I'd start crying.  I'm trying to avoid having to come clean to my boss, although we are probably going to have to talk about M maybe coming to work with my for a few minutes until time to go to camp in the morning.

Quote
Ah na na. She makes PERFECT sense. It's always about controlling you, keeping you off balance, getting the upper hand.

I know it's about control.  It's always about her control.  If I'd talked with her about this and explained that I wanted a place of my own with my kitchen, etc, then she might have helped me find a place she approved of, one I didn't like.  If I'd let her be involved in this whole process she wouldn't have been so nasty, but I wanted to do it on my own.  I wanted it to be my place, and when I move from this place, that one will be mine too, hopefully I'll be able to buy that one.


Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Stormchild on June 20, 2007, 10:13:28 PM
... and when I move from this place, that one will be mine too, hopefully I'll be able to buy that one.

Words to live by. Words to hope by. Words to build on.

The 30th, eh?

Ten days to lift-off and counting... and in two hours' time, at least on the East Coast, it'll be nine days and counting.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: lighter on June 20, 2007, 10:15:13 PM
Every time I open this thread I think it's not named properly.

"It's Done" isn't right.

It's just started. 

It isn't done till you're moved and feeling safe and calm. 

It isn't done till you believe she can't touch or harm you and your son again.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 20, 2007, 10:26:29 PM
Lighter, you are exactly correct.  It has just started.  Unfortunately, it might take some time to set boundaries in my new space.  I'm hoping she isn't going to want to visit all the time.  *shudders*  I do plan to keep going to the local flea market on Sunday mornings with my dad though.  M can go too, and he likes doing that.

Stormy, I'm counting down.  We're going to clean Sunday.  I'm taking lots of kitchen things tomorrow.  Sunday we can put all of the new dishes and silverware in the dishwasher and put them away.  we can get the kitchen ready to go.  There's food already there, even  It's going to be so nice to just be able to relax.

I wonder if the constant tension I have knotting my shoulders will go away . . .
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Ami on June 20, 2007, 10:27:14 PM
What Storm said about abuse was short , sweet and true. I got "weak' today and e mailed my mother . It was my birthday, so I felt nostalgic. The first was a "poison" one and the second was that I understand that she could not "help it". However, I did say that I cannot have contact
   Tay, when I see your mother, I can see how hopeless it is to have any kind of quality relationship with her. It is harder to see how "sick" mine is because she is 'mine'. One thing that I am starting to see is  that when you are in the "throes" of mental illness, which I was, you really cannot 'help" your distortions. You still have free will. However, I see that I could not "help" the crazy way that I thought. I am getting a "small"understanding of how awful it must be to be in her head. HOWEVER, I cannot have contact b/c I would be pulled back. She is much more sly than I am. I think that her "evil" gives her an "advantage" over me in pure strength and cunning. I cannot fight this degree of evil. It is strong, as Peck says. I cannot go up against it. However, I am getting a little understanding so ,hopefully, I can forgive, for me.
   Hang in there. I am praying for you and you inspire  me to be strong      Love Ami
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Stormchild on June 20, 2007, 10:55:42 PM
(((((Ami)))))
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 20, 2007, 11:01:03 PM
Ami, I've just accepted, finally, that ours is going to be a shallow relationship.  There are things I would like to tell her, but I don't think I ever will.  In a way, I hope she and my dad do move away to give us more distance.  When I'm around her, I just feel so down, so depressed, so compressed.  I understand how you feel.  Although, I'm not ready to forgive my mom.  I'm still angry.  I wrote her a three page letter I don't intend to send, and the very last thing I said was, I can't forgive you, not yet, maybe someday.  I think forgiveness is overrated.  I think we need to be angry.  We didn't ask to be treated like this.

Sometimes I think I'm being a selfish *itch because I don't want anything to do with my mother.  I feel guilty when I buy something for myself, so I almost never buy anything for myself.  I buy things for other people.  I do things for other people, but I feel guilty doing for myself.  Does that mean I'm not selfish?  When I was a teenager I wanted two things.  I wanted to be a writer and I wanted to help other people.  I still want to help other people.  I look at various charity things and think I'd like to do that, and then I come home, and the energy just drains away.
 
You are strong, Ami.  Keep fighting.  You can do this.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 21, 2007, 10:11:04 AM
After our mother/daughter shopping trip last night, this morning she wants to be my friend again.  She says, "I'm glad you're getting your house, but I would feel better knowing that M will be somewhere safe.  I don't think you've thought this out."

I just didn't respond today.  I didn't want to argue about it.  She finds fault with anything I bring up.  So M and I will have to have a talk about what he wants to do.

She also told me this morning that M has reverted to dinosaurs and that's all he talks, thinks and does is dinosaurs.  Well, last week it was spiders.  And when I came home last night, he was jabbering about the  move until just before bed when he dressed the dog up as a dinosaur.  He was a little unruly when we went shopping, and the whole time my mom was saying things like, "You're being obnoxious.  You weren't like this earlier, I'm ashamed to have you with me."  I was thinking, "Tell me he doesn't internalize that.  Tell me that some of his "Obsessive behavior" is not because he hears things like that."  I hope I don't end up forcing my son to have an emotional breakdown, but I don't think I will.  I think he needs routine, consistency, and stability.  I think he needs to know that people are going to be there for him, and he might be nervous for a little while, but once he knows he's not going to be abandoned, he'll endure.

My mom has kept him like a little child.  She has toys put away just a certain way, then berates him if he doesn't put them up just right. She won't let him help around the house, despite my many pleas to let him have chores, so I give him chores and pay him an allowance.  She alternately indulges and deprives him.  One day, she'll be very indulgent.  The next day she'll deprive him.  Surely, some of this factors in to his behavior.  I hope so, or maybe I'm just as bad a mother as she claims because I'm going to put my son into a camp or daycare and shove him from pillar to post with strangers.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 21, 2007, 12:19:27 PM
Quote
He said that he realized that the proverb was describing us.  We have all lived with two hands full--we had a lot of "things" and a steady income and apparent security.  Now we are poor and we have very little.  But we were all sitting in the living room together and none of us was waiting for the other shoe to drop.  We were completely at peace and enjoying each other's company.  There was no one glowering in the corner.  We have one hand full of so much.

CB,  That is so beautiful.  I hope we will have that.  I doubt myself when she says things like that to me, like I would put M in a place I didn't feel comfortable with.  I even felt so uncomfortable with my orignal plan that I started looking at other things for him.  I didn't find anything better than my original plan of sending to camps here where I work.

It's the whole things she says about strangers, I think that unnerves me.  But they are only strangers as long as we don't know them.  If I let M stay in the familiar, he never learns to experience something new, and I don't think that does him any good at all.  Yes, he's anxious, but he seems anxious in a good way.  I keep telling him I'm scared to, but I know this is for the best.  I keep hearing that little voice inside say this is for the best.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 21, 2007, 01:30:28 PM
CB,

I understand what you're saying.  Fear of the unknown is both exciting and scary.  I figure as long as I keep telling him it's okay to feel what he's feeling, and that I feel the same way, that will help him deal with everything.  Unfortunately, I can't do much about the tension in our current situation.  Nothing for that but time.

I disagree with my mom though about shoving him from here to there.  I think a certain amount of that is good.  I think he'll have fun, maybe make some friends.  I grew up much as M has so far, very isolated in a rural area.  No one wanted to come to my house to play because we lived so far out.  I wasn't really allowed to have kids over.  We moved to town when I was a little older, but although I did go to friends' houses some, it was very restrictive.  I stayed after a friend's birthday party once to play, and she came and got me, then yelled at me because I was supposed to go right home.   Only she never told me I was supposed to go home.  I just remember feeling very lonely as a child, and I had a hard time relating to other kids my age.  I think M has some of that going on now.  He asked many times if he could have a friend over, and I knew it wouldn't happen.  Or he would ask for a birthday party, and we'd never have one because my mother thought it was too much trouble.  Normal kid things.  I didn't have them either, and my mom thinks they are unnecessary.

So, I know it's going to be scary going to someplace new, but I think he'll enjoy it.  I think he'll like not being stuck playing by himself all day and night.

CB, his obsessions come and go. Tomorrow it might be Harry Potter or Transformers.  Dinosaurs and spiders are safe right now, so he clings to those, much to my mother's horror.  I think that will be all right.

I will have to look into the safety programs though.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: lighter on June 21, 2007, 01:37:54 PM


I will have to look into the safety programs though.


tayana:

Two books I recomend for keeping safe.

THE GIFT OF FEAR

STRONG ON DEFENSE

Both relatively short reads and very helpful.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 21, 2007, 03:21:46 PM
I will look for those.  Thanks, Lighter.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Stormchild on June 21, 2007, 08:01:34 PM
Only
9
more

'chopping'

days

till

"Kiss This"

!
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 21, 2007, 08:38:37 PM
Can we make them go faster?  Now, she's going to come with me Sunday to help me clean.  Her real purpose is to just come so she can turn up her nose at my place.  Arrggh!  She bought me some glasses today, and now she's decided to go buy her some just like them.  Arrgh!  She's getting rid of her old stuff so she can buy new stuff.  Arrgh!  And I thought she was just being nice.

I did discover something the other night.  I used to listen to see what sort of things she was saying about me, but I heard her talking about me the other day.  I just didn't care.  She could have said I was a saint, and I still wouldn't care.  I'm sure her words would still hurt, but I just don't care what she thinks anymore.  It's my space.  I'm paying for it, even if she does think I have NO MONEY FOR THIS.  I just let her go on thinking that.  Go on thinking that.  My budget says, I have plenty of money if I'm a bit more frugal.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: CB123 on June 21, 2007, 08:42:03 PM
Now, she's going to come with me Sunday to help me clean.

Just say NO!

She's a piece of work, Tayana.

CB
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 21, 2007, 08:48:29 PM
Well, she didn't actually say she was coming, only that she might.   I'll never get a straight answer from her.

I found out today when I took some boxes over that I know my upstairs neighbor.  We used to work together.  Small world, huh?
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Ami on June 21, 2007, 08:56:18 PM
I agree with CB.Limit the time that you spend with her -- the less the better   ,          Love  Ami
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Stormchild on June 21, 2007, 09:09:16 PM
Do you have to let her in your place now, tayana?

I'm very reclusive, so consider that when you assess my input. [And in all honesty, I wasn't reclusive when I was younger. It's something that developed as a result of being stalked. Nobody, but nobody, knows where I live until I am convinced that they are SAFE.]

Honestly - if I were in your place - I'd be reluctant to have her even know where the apartment is, for at least a few months. I mean, how likely is it that she's going to start showing up on your doorstep, constantly, as soon as you move?

On the subject of honest to god not caring what she is saying about you, that is GREAT! And the fact that your response is complete indifference is very very good... either extreme anger or extreme 'understanding' [overforgiving, aka enabling] would mean that you weren't really unhooked from that, not yet.

And yep. She's not being nice; she isn't capable of it. She's trying to dominate and control your move, and put her mark all over your new house. Think of it, if you can, as being like dogs peeing on fire hydrants. The less you let her 'pee on' your stuff, the less her presence will be hassling you mentally in your new home. And of course she'll have fewer excuses to want to come over to 'see how the ____ looks' etc.

Think boundaries and walls.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 21, 2007, 10:15:44 PM
Stormy,

I think I would rather have her come now and turn up her nose than have her barge in later on.  I'm going to have to make it plain to her that I don't want her camping out all the time, and that we don't need nightly phone calls, or more likely hourly phone calls.

I feel really great that I don't care anymore what she says.  I only really care what she says to my son.

Your example is excellent.  That's exactly it.  Marking her territory.  I intend to get rid of the ugly lamps as soon as I find some tables and lamps that I like.  And I might just save up to have the couch recovered with something I like.

She just informed me that she wants to have the necklace I'd made for her, and she gave it back to me and told me she wanted another bead added, back.  Since I was so busy I wouldn't have time to string, and she also wants the ring back that I have for sale in my internet shop.  I'm thinking what the . . . and then I realized, oh, she thinks I won't ever fix the necklace and she's afraid the ring will get stolen.  I'm so glad I'm going to be away from this paranoid nonsense.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Stormchild on June 21, 2007, 10:29:01 PM
I hear you... I just hope you don't end up with a sobbing screaming crazy old lady pounding on your front door at midnight when you have to be at work the next day. That's the sort of performance my mother would have put on, if she'd been physically capable of it.

This business with the necklace and the ring is also a way of interfering in your ability to concentrate on the move. Divert your attention to HER. Keep you occupied with busywork for HER. Those things could wait, and she knows it. They are geniuses at this kind of stuff. Suck up your time... suck up your energy... then kick you in the teeth...

Hang in there, you're on the way out.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 21, 2007, 11:13:21 PM
Oh, that's exactly the sort of thing she would do to me too.  It's insane.  She would do that especially if I didn't answer her phone calls, and I'll bet she calls every F'ing night.

The ring is no big deal, in fact, I'm just going to delete it out of my store while I'm thinking about it.  The necklace is a little more complicated.  Once I was settled it would be no big deal to do this.  She says, "Oh you're busy.  I'll do it."  Of course, she'll never do it. 

Here's a good one.  I decided last year I was going to make a lot of my Christmas gifts.  I made a gift for almost everyone.  I spend a small fortune for real turquoise beads to make my mom a bracelet and necklace.  I was also knitting her a blanket.  I picked out the yarn colors so they would match her living room furniture.  I spent well over 100 hours knitting this blanket.  She proceeded to tell me how much she didn't like handmade blankets because the yarn pilled and after they were washed they ended up looking nasty.  I didn't get the thing finished by Christmas although I was almost done.  I'd planned to give it to her on New Year's.  When I finished it, she made some comment about not liking it again.  So I kept the blanket.  It's super soft and warm, and I use it when I sit and read.  I didn't want to give her something that I'd spent so long on, that she was obviously going to dislike.  Instead I made her a bracelet and necklace with the expensive turquoise beads.  Well, she won't wear the necklace because it's too heavy, and she won't wear the bracelet either.  It was such a slap in the face to have spent so much time planning and making these things and then to never have her wear them.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: lighter on June 21, 2007, 11:33:12 PM
I thnk you'll have to change your expectations about your mother, bc she's not going to change. 

You'll continue to be dissapointed by her until you do. 

Title: Re: It's done
Post by: JanetLG on June 22, 2007, 07:17:03 AM
Tayana,

That's heartbreaking about the blanket. After all the work you put in - what an ungrateful cow (but only to be expected of an N).

I remember making an embroidered picture for my NMum once, when I was about 15. It was a tapestry of a large white cat, sitting on a table with a (complicated!) vase of flowers next to it. I chose that kit to do, because we had a cat just like the one in the picture. Took me hours to do, all in secret in my bedroom. When I gave it to her, all she said was ' Our cat's got GREEN eyes - this one's got YELLOW eyes - that's not right'. So I had to unframe it, unpick the yellow and do green, then frame it again. She put it on the wall in her bedroom, but - and here's the REALLY N bit - whenever she was annoyed with me, off the wall would come the picture, and under the bed with it. Sometimes, it was like a bloody yo-yo, it was up and down so often. I got so that, as I walked past her bedroom, I'd glance in to see the 'barometer' of her feelings about me that day. Just like she planned, I suppose.

They don't appreciate anything artistic, Tayana - it's too much of a threat.

I think it's great that you made so many presents. People should do that more. It'd take some of the tackiness out of Christmas.

As for letting her come round to help you clean your new place...

NO! NO! NO!

Janet
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Hopalong on June 22, 2007, 07:33:31 AM
Tay...this is the core thing, and it will follow you hon, if you don't screw up the determination now:

Quote
Now, she's going to come with me Sunday


It sounds as though she makes a lot of declarative statements that go unchallenged (I know, hon, it's exhausting to challenge them all, but this is what it takes until you disengage):

you need a toaster
I'll go over with you Sunday
I don't know whether your son is going to Bible school
I'm giving you the necklace to fix

All of these require that you utter and repeat as needed the word NO, and this word will be your friend and protector for the rest of your life.

love
Hops
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Ami on June 22, 2007, 08:00:43 AM
WOW Tay,
  MY mother hated every present that I gave her,too. We could all get together and write a really good and "unique" list of N mother traits. Some of what we say here, I have never read  any place else.
 Tay, we are ,unfortunately, in a small fraternity of people who have  N mothers. It is a group of  soldiers ,who have fought the same long war .  If it has a brief cease fire,it is only brief.It is usually a ruse.
     Yesterday, when I talked to my aunt, I saw how it was to talk to a 'normal" relative. . It was a peaceful "flow". I really saw the difference in an N "conversation" and a 'normal" one.Things were "real". There was not a "hidden" agenda that you end up having a fight about.
  A monkey wrench did not fly out at me from nowhere. It was a give and take situation where I did not have to be on guard .
   I see how I got hyper vigilant. my mother screamed, raged and decimated  me for no reason that I could see. I guess that there was a reason in her 'warped " head. I ,now, am waiting  to be "ripped to pieces" by others
    I don't know how my aunt came out so good. She is the younger sister. She has 3 great kids .
I think that my mother's mother  was "too close" to my M. I don't think that my M had 'active abuse". I think that she had to 'be perfect" to make my grandmother look good.
 My aunt, still is real. She can talk about mistakes and weaknesses. I was amazed how she admitted 'real" things. I guess that this is "health"  . She does not have to be perfect.
                                                                                                    Love  Ami
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 22, 2007, 09:27:33 AM
It just gets better and better.  This morning she was mad at me again.  She's decided that she is NOT going to come with me on Sunday to clean and take more boxes.  She doesn't want to "rain on my parade."  I guess this is some sort of sick game.  She thought I was excited about her coming, I guess, and so by deciding that she's not coming she thinks she's hurting me, only she's not.  I just let out a little internal sigh of relief.

M was up early this morning, and he has a new interest in phobias.  So he's rattling off different phobias, and when he asks her if she knows what one of them is, she tells him, "You already talked about that earlier and all day yesterday."  Then he was reading a dinosaur book.  "Why don't think you think about something besides dinosaurs?"  I just wanted to slap her.  She told him at the breakfast table this morning that he has gotten rude because she was nitpicking on the way he was eating his breakfast, so he told her, "Let me take care of the eating."  That was rude, apparently.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: Ami on June 22, 2007, 10:12:06 AM
Dear Tay,
   One things that I forgot to tell you. My sons had all sorts of "obsessions" ,if you want to call them that. They had imaginary  playmates(animals). They have diferent "periods' when they are in to different things. I would use my "mother's intuition". if you feel thta it is "nothing", then it probably is nothing.
  Also, about your mother "not" wanting to go  to your apartment in orderto punish you. You have to use "reverse psychology" with them. If you need them , they run away. if you don't want them, they come. CB was talking about this in another post.
   It is a good tool ,especially for you,now                  Love    Ami
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 22, 2007, 10:45:57 AM
Ami,

When she said she wasn't coming this morning, the conversation went a little like this:

Her:  I've decided not to go on Sunday.  I don't want to rain on your parade.
Me: You can if you want.
Her:  No, I told your dad we weren't going to go.
Me:  Well, you can come.  I don't care.

I knew the more I insisted she come, the more she would refuse.  So I guess that was that reverse psychology.

I generally don't worry too much about M's obsessions.  He outgrows them, and some of it, I think is a way of dealing with loneliness and having no one to play with except animals.  When I was his age, I had all sorts of imaginary playmates.  I went through all sorts of "magical thinking."  I didn't have friends, none that could come and play at any rate.  I was always punished for wanting to go to friends' houses.  I really see myself in the way M thinks.  I was even still engaged in the "magical thinking" when I was a teenager and coming home to an empty house, or anytime I was doing housework.  I would imagine a whole scenario and "write a story" in my head.  My mother preferred that I come home and start directly on my homework, but since she wasn't there, I usually played outside or watched TV or other relaxing things.  If I was outside, then I was into the magical thinking in my own little world, just like M.

As I said before, my childhood was marked by a strong sense of loneliness and a lot of fear of doing the wrong thing.  That continued well into my teens, even when my friends lived close by.  They never came to my house.  We always went to theirs.  I was always "on the alert" for something that would make my mom angry.  I don't think I ever got to have anything resembling a normal childhood.
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: lighter on June 22, 2007, 10:47:21 AM
Tayana:

It sounds like your son is picking up on handling himself well, from watching you.

I just loved his response "Let me take care of the eating"  

Of course your mother thinks this is rude, lol.  

It was an appropriate response and your son asserted himself.  

Your mother won't ever be able to be happy with that.  
Title: Re: It's done
Post by: tayana on June 22, 2007, 10:58:06 AM
I'm very proud that my son, at 10, is more assertive that I will likely ever be.  I'll never forget the time when he was about 5, that we went to a restaurant and he sent his food back.  I was a little embarassed, and the waiter was shocked.  He did it anyway.

He wast eating granola bars and picking at them and making a "Mess."  I have just never seen the need to fight over food.  He does tend to eat with his fingers more than he should, and we need to work on that, but not the way my mom tries to.

No, she doesn't like it when he's assertive.  Best of all, once his mind is made up, it's made up.  It's hard to change.