Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: bigalspal on July 23, 2007, 03:23:32 PM
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Hi folks,
Here's the thread I said I start.
I guess I want to know your experiences with Nfamily/X's need & or want to destroy you.
For instance: My NMother would've had an abortion if she could of found a doctor (this was 1957 in southern Indiana) back alley or otherwise.
All the hell I've been through, sometimes it seems that would've been better if she did. Really, I'm not pity seeking, so I don't need that from you.
I'm just saying I live with that shame everyday, of knowing I really shouldn't be alive. I guess somedays I feel guilty for being here.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my family. My husband & kids are the ONLY thing that's made that better. But waaaay deep down inside...I guess I don't feel legitimate.
That's another "light bulb" moment for me. I could never articulate what I'm trying to say, until right this minute. LEGITAMITE. That's the operative word.
My young parents were married, but I still I don't feel legitimate.
Then I had an NX who treated me the same way. He would just play around with my feelings, hit me & mess with my head.
And here's another thing. I just did not take care of myself. You know, all the excesses of life when you don't care what happens to your body.
Can anyone relate?
Maybe you mother or father didn't provide food or clothing for you. Maybe an X hit you or tried to hurt or kill you.
After all I've been through, I feel lucky to be alive.
How about you?
Love,
Bigalspal
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Bigalspal,
I don't know what to say to you, I really don't. Your mother sounds awful - from what you've put here, and on other threads, too.
I can relate to it in this way...my NMum used to say to me, from when I was really small, "Don't have children, they ruin your life, make you poor, make you ill, they're boring..." (By the way, I have an older brother and a younger 'Golden Child' sister).
Of course *I* was one of 'the children' that she was talking about, and I internalised the rejection, but also the attitude, so much, that by the time I was SEVEN, I was telling people proudly 'I'm not going to have children, they ruin your life'...blah, blah.
I only realised last year (when I was 44) that the uneasy feeling that I had towards babies and children was not *my* feeling at all, but hers, projected onto me. For the first time ever, I wished I'd had children. But it's too late now.
Also, I got anorexia when I was 12, as a result of the stress in our family. She didn't want to get me to a doctor, until I begged her, when I was 15. I had anorexia till I was 24. She wasn't concerned that I was seriously *ill* - only that 'people' would think badly of HER, if they thought she wasn't feeding me properly.
She was so uninterested in my illness, that I really thought (and I was probably right) that she didn't care if I lived or died.
She rejected me in a slightly different way than the way your Mum rejected you, but I think the result is very similar - you don't feel valued by others, so much so that you can't value yourself.
The fact that you bad a bad choice in your adult relationships is not surprising, really. Lots of us did that. I did it. Was engaged to a violent N for 6 years. I stayed with him for so long because I thought I might as well, as no-one ele would be interested (this is what both he and my NMum used to tell me.)
As to not caring for your body, apart from the anorexia (which is a huge rejection of self on its own), I still have problems feeling that I am 'worth' dressing up nicely, wearing jewellery, using nice perfumes, etc. I buy the stuff, but I can't bring myself to use it, a lot of the time.
Is this what you meant by 'can anyone relate'? I hope so.
We need to start valuing ourselves, but it's just so hard.
Janet
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I have to respond to my two friends ,here. I have been thinking about your question,Pal.I think that there is a PC answer and a 'real" answer. The PC answer would be,"Yes, I am really happy to be alive."
However, my life has been mostly pain.
The only redeeming feature of my life is that I found God. The other beautiful thing is when I can help others. This is something of beauty and value.I think that the more I heal the more I will have to offer.
Life still seems grey to me. It is changing, slowly.I think that when I feel "real" and not numb and grey,life will be better.
The Bible says that you must lose your life to gain it. I have been thinking about this. Also, the Bible says that the only way to overcome all other fears is to overcome the fear of death.
I know that I need to go in this direction. Then, I think that I will be happy to be alive Love Ami
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Hi Janet & Ami,
Janet, I'm so sorry your NMother made you feel so bad that you now realize it's too late to have children. How awful! They really do mess with our heads. And an eating disorder is her legacy to you.
Of course, she will never believe she could in anyway be responsible. Not her!
Boy, that rings true with me, too. I have so much baggage to carry around that my shoulder's are permantly damaged.
Ami, my good friend, you are so right about God. He's been the only voice that gives me 100% love. I know he loves me & wishes my mother did, too. One day there will be an end to this pain & we will suffer no more.
I always cry to God asking, where is my justice! Because I'm MAD too! Mad at the pain she's caused.
I ask God why does she live with no regret? Why does she even exist? She's not a good person.
She has hurt every member of our family. Some worse than others.
But, I know God will take care of it on his terms not mine.
Love,
Bigalspal
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I don't have the same pain from N parents to share, Pal.
I do know that the Nhusband pain was terrible so I can't imagine what you must be going through (((Pal)))
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So UNFAIR and you were just an innocent child who deserved a good mama to protect and love her. I'm sorry that happend to you.
I'm glad you're reaching out for answers and understanding with the rest.
I believe you can figure out how to control your thoughts, recover and fill your life with better things.
I'm certainly rooting for you.
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Thank you so much Lighter.
That really does mean the world to me!
Thanks for letting me share. I think that's what has had me so stuck in this unhealthy place.
Before I came here, I wouldn't share it with very many people, so at my advanced age of 49, it's still there.
I regret not sharing it a long time ago. Maybe with a therapist. Money was always an issue when I was young. You get so caught up in raising kids that you feel like you can't spare the money.
But what I didn't realize was that money would've been well spent! I know my kids would've benefited greatly from their mom's improved mental health.
When your young you just don't see it that way.
So here I am.
Love,
Bigalspal
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It seems so clear now, doesn't it, lol? That getting therapy earlier in life would have helped you and helped your children too as a natural side affect.
So hard to see when you're face is pressed up against the glass, esp when raising children and trying to survive.
I am glad you're here working on yourself now.
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I am going to say something that I don't mean to start controversy about at all. It is just my impression and i would be interested in others' answers. I think that it is till in line with the thread.
However,I think that the erosion of your psyche is worse with an N mother(parent) than with an N spouse. it seems that the people with N parents have that much more of a higher hill that they have climb just to be anywhere near normal.
It seems that the erosion of your core, guts and soul is so deep with an N mother. I know that my H could never, ever hurt me the way that my M did. Anything that he did would never wound me in the way that she did.
I think that that is why we ,with N mothers, find it hard to bond with people b/c we are so "different". We went to hell in our childhood.. We are kind of in a different dimension of reality than people who did not have this.I am coming out of it and expect to be "normal" some day,but these are my thoughts on it.
I don't want to foster a heated discussion on which is worse---- just to hear people's thoughts.
Maybe, I hijacked this thread. If I did, then I will just move it later. Love Ami
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Hi Ami,
Yes, I do think it's worse, & I'll explain my point of view.
If we are born with an Nparent, we have nothing to fall back on. No inner strength that a loving parent would instill in you to help you deal with an Npartner.
I think my husband put it best. He was very poor growing up. The other kids made fun of the way he dressed, had to eat lunch on the school lunch program, the house he lived in ect.
BUT, now this is important, when he got home he ALWAYS KNEW his parents thought he was SPECIAL! No matter how bad of a day he had, love & acceptance was waiting for him at home. Doesn't that just say it all?
I'd love to hear what others have to say on this subject. Good thought, Ami.
Love,
Bigalspal
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Ami,
I think as you do - that when you've ONLY had the N parenting (obviously) you haven't had anything else. Just their twisted ways. So, if they choose to spend years telling you you're crap, and no-one else consistently says otherwise (although I know you had your grandmother), you've got no other point of reference to really *experience* a more supportive way of relating to the world. Sure, you can *see* other kids getting healthy parenting...but you don't get that yourself.
Pal,
It's so wearing, isn't it? All this trying to see what others had, and trying to be 'normal' when there's that awful nagging voice at the back of your mind, telling you you're not worthy enough to be on the planet, despite any of the great things you achieve. I'm glad you've got your husband's experiences, now, to compare with. I've got my husband's too, and it does help to discuss differences with someone who'll listen to you and understand.
Trying to deall with an N partner is hell anyway. Having had an N parent too, it's just impossible. My Nboyfriend and NMum used to gang up on me - did yours? They both wanted me in a powerless relationship, as they could both use me in different ways. As I put on weight (getting over my anorexia), my NMum actually let an honest comment escape her lips, once. She said " I liked you better when you were thin - you were easier to control then."
As to God....I know the 'usual' way of seeing God helps a lot of people here. My way of seeing God, considering the mother I had, is to see God as female. That way, I can *eventually* have a loving, comforting mother-figure who understands me, who I can talk to when I need to. I find it really helps, although I accpet that many people will have difficulty with my concept of God. That's OK :D
Janet
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Hi all,
Janet, I guess my mother was different. She hated everyone I've ever been with. I mean HATED them. Not, you know, I don't like this guy, but HATED them.
Well...wait a minute...she does love the man I'm married to now. He's a good money person. We are NOT rich. but he has given me more than anyone has before. Money is her God. She respects that. But, ganging up on me? Well she DID try that ONCE. We were at my stepdad's funeral, the same man she used & abused for 30 yrs. And she had the nerve to show up at his funeral & bring HER NEW HUSBAND! We were disgusted. Anyway, she cornered my husband & said I was looking good, but HOW good is she REALLY doing? You know the crap they ask. My husband look at her and said. "She's GREAT! " Better than YOU are!" She never has tried anything like that again!
So yeah, she has tried it. I didn't remember that until I was typing.
Janet, I can't believe your mom said that! (Oh, wait a min. we are dealing with an N!) Easier to control when you were thin! Boy, talk about letting the mask slip!
They really are fun, now aren't they!
Love,
Bigalspal
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Dear Pal,
My mother never went so far as to tell me she should have aborted me, but she did tell me she should never have had children. Funny thing was, I was such a mess, I agreed with her.
I was seven years old when, one day, I calmly told my mother that I was tired of living and that I wanted to commit suicide. Seven years old. Her response: “Well, if you do that you will spend the rest of eternity cursed, walking behind me apologizing for having put me through the pain and embarrassment of having a daughter commit suicide – is that what you want - to have to apologize to me for all eternity, not to mention cause me that much pain and embarrassment?”
Not once did she ask me why.
So yes, while I did not feel lucky to be alive then, I feel lucky to be alive today. While I am not entirely where I want to be, it is a lot better than where I was. I have a phenomenal husband and two daughters who floor me with their capacity for love and compassion.
I am so sorry your mother said that to you. You mentioned feeling shame and feeling that you really shouldn’t be alive – it is your mother’s shame not yours. She doesn’t deserve you – her fault and loss for not recognizing what a wonderful daughter she had! Personally, I am glad you are here.
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I also wanted to chime in on the question on who has it worse – someone with an Nparent or someone who had good parents but entered a relationship with an N. I don’t know, I am kinda on the fence on this one.
In my early 20’s I too was in an abusive relationship. It started out ok, but over several months the relationship got progressively worse. I cut ties and walked away – yes the pain was bad, but I knew, after having lived with my father (who was beyond toxic) that if I stayed with this person, my life would be a repeat of my childhood and there was no way that I would ever do that again. In that moment, I knew that the pain of walking away would be far less than staying - it made it much easier for me to get out. I also knew that life would be better lived alone than to ever subjugate myself to another.
I think people who have good parents are really blindsided when they get entangled with an N. They have never really known that people like this exist. The N’s are so careful in the beginning - they are everything you ever dreamed of. Over time, as happens with Nparents, a very slow erosion of the identity occurs. It is so subtle that you don’t know exactly what is happening until one day the abuse is so obvious you wake up and say wait a minute – by that time, your identity may have been so toyed with you don’t know who you are anymore. Very similar to what is done to children of Ns – and oftentimes I think just as hard to get past – by the time the Npartner is finished, that identity that was so carefully built by loving parents may have been totally demolished (ie, there is nothing to fall back on). Can they find their way back – I believe that just like people who had Nparents, they can, but they too must rebuild from the beginning. I also believe that they (like us) will never be the same. Association with an N leaves scars, some perhaps more deep than others, but the wounds always hurt and take a great deal of time to heal.
Probably not explaining it well, but I kind of think of it like kidney stones and childbirth – I have been through both. People have often asked which pain is worse? I always answer that both are excruciating. Pain is relative to the moment – all you want is for the pain to go away. In other words, to me, it doesn’t matter much which is worse – they both hurt – and when it is going on, all I want is for the pain to stop!
Just my .02
Always with love,
Peace
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Dear Peace,
You explained it beautifully. I am so glad that you have a good H and good children. You deserve ever bit of love and joy in life. It is so nice to "hear" your voice Love Ami
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Hey Peace,
Good point! I never thought of it that way. If you've never had to deal with an N, boy that sure can take you by surprise. You really don't see it coming. You don't know what to expect.
Looks like you've had an Nmother, too. Wanting to commit suicide at 7 years old! 7! And the response your mother gave you. Shameful! But..it looks like you went the other way. You told yourself you were never going to be treated like that again. I really do admire that.
I think a lot of the reason I put up with one of my x's was money. I never earned as much as he did. He controlled all the money. I had no family to go to, so I stuck around much longer than I wanted to. I've learned who ever controls the money, controls the house.
My now husband & I work together. He really does not have money issues. I pretty much pay all the bills, but he does have access to our bank accounts. So it keeps us both honest.
I have a lot of trouble buying myself things, so sometimes he'll go and buy it for me. Good guy! :D
Thanks Peace.
Love,
Bigalspal
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I just want to say to everyone who's posted here
that you are beautiful, miraculous, and there is wonder
in hearing your brave, bright, beautiful voices with so
much hard-won wisdom.
As hard as your lives have been, as many cruel and
mindless voices as once filled your ears...you are
making a different sound. A new sound.
Please understand there is music in you. Each.
I can hear it.
love
Hops
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Big,
I can't share either with N parents but can share with X.
Am I lucky to be alive? I would have to say yes and no. I'm not sure if I had luck or divine intervention.
I should have been shot but gun was in the car hidden and the car door locks broke and would not open when X went berserk trying to get in. Was night and there was a night crew working construction so they heard his yells and my screams. He went running. Again luck or divine intervention.
Was I in the right place at the wrong time? Was I in the wrong place at the right time?
Don't know.
Doors eventually opened for me where I found the gun. Called the police turned it in. Which is a whole story in itself.
He went to Jail not for the night with me but for some major crimes that no one Knew Of except the FBI and they did not know his identity. The gun was the Link to who was the person.
Was this meant to be? Was it luck? Was it divine intervention. Don't know.
But I'm sure glad I'm still here.
And I'm glad you are too.
Deb
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Pal,
I feel blessed to be alive... and that's still a fairly new feeling for me.
All that came before seems like an endless maze... struggling to make something of value... and then to keep it, only to have it crumble away because I couldn't be good enough or right enough to hold it together.
My mother loves to retell the story of my birth. She and my dad had my brother about 2 years into their marriage... and then, ten years later, I came along (allegedly as a result of ongoing efforts :P) The :P is because I don't buy that part.
I don't believe that my mother really wanted another child. I feel that she only aquiesced to popular demand.
But anyway... here I came - at high Noon - preceded by severe bleeding and major trauma to my poor suffering mother and all of the doctors whose lunch hour was interrupted. Her Rh factor created the need for blood transfusions, as I recall, along with numerous other gory details. She seems to love to repeat this story at each of my birthdays. Now that I live 1,000 miles away, she's limited to saying "I remember where I was X # of years ago..." at which point I immediately say, "Oh, here, one of your grandchildren wants to say hi." Yup yup - my mother and I are both lucky to be alive. Translated - I owe her my undying allegiance into eternity. Somehow, my birth elevated her status to that of goddess and relegated me to the realm of shadows, where I wasn't allowed to exist unless I was dutifully reflecting her glory.
And that's all I have to say about that :)
I hope this doesn't sound like an expression of pity, but I am sorry that your mother was so devoid of humanity that she was able to say to you what you said. Absence of humanity manifests in many forms, but they all lie. Meeting Jesus has been the greatest discovery of truth in my life. Because of Him, I can say that I'm blessed to be alive.
With love,
Hope
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Hi Hops, Deb & Hope,
Thanks for sharing your stories. Look like we have a lot in common.
You know, I used to think I HAD to be the only one that's experienced this type of pain. But now I know I'm not.
I don't know if that's a good thing or not. :(
I'm sad for all of us.
But at least we can release it by talking to each other.
Thanks so much,
Love,
Bigalspal
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Hi Bigal
I guess your mother's words about wishing she had an abortion are what brought about this thread? That is her and has nothing to do with your life. Can you see that?
My mother told me that after I was born, the doctor came in to check on her, then drove himself off a brige/killed himself! What did that have to do with me? Nothing! It was in his own head, just like your mother's ideas were in her own head, and you are now able to build your own life.
I think that everyone who is alive is probably thankful, per se, but then there are those with problems, emotional and physical
I have both. I am a paraplegic and have been for 38 years. If I were not happy to be alive, I would have done myself in long ago.
But I have a daughter. I never thought about suicide and even though when she was in her 20s, her N kicked me away from them and 2 grandchildren. He convinced her it was the right thing to do. I still, as heartbroken as I was, with nothing ahead for me but to keep on keeping on, kept on. I am a survivor. I don't give up. I am now 68 and have no one, but will see life through with my work and other things.
Ns
father
sister
ex soin-in-law*****
one of my own--left him 5 years ago.
my eldest grandson, 20, from living with his Dad.*****
Regards
Izzy
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I am going to say something that I don't mean to start controversy about at all. It is just my impression and i would be interested in others' answers. I think that it is till in line with the thread.
However,I think that the erosion of your psyche is worse with an N mother(parent) than with an N spouse. it seems that the people with N parents have that much more of a higher hill that they have climb just to be anywhere near normal.
Ami..... I've seen you post that you thought your core self was in tact till you were 14yo?
Did your Grandmother help your mother raise you till you were a certain age?
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Hi Izzy,
Thanks for sharing with me.
I do see what you mean about it being her thing, not mine.
My head knows it, but my heart is trying to catch up.
I have faith that it will.
I want to tell you that I think you are an amazing person. You are dealing with a lot of stuff.
I can see where you are coming from. You are very strong!
I know not seeing those grandbabies really hurt. I'm glad you didn't think about suicide.
Izzy, I know this is weird coming from me. Especially since I posted this topic, but I don't want to kill myself either. I really don't. Somewhere deep inside is a spark of life. It burns the brightest when I'm with those that I love. I look at MY grandbabies pictures everyday & tell them that grandma is getting better. I don't think they notice the pain I'm in. They are very young. Who knows, they might feel it. But, when I am with them, I keep it upbeat.
They should never have to bear my pain.
Anyway, thanks Izzy,
Love,
Bigalspal
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Thank you BAP
When I was with the grandchildren, one for 4½ years and one for 2 years, (there are now three and they are 20, 18 and 15----long forgotten, let alone remembered, are the Grandma days of when they were little) they made me so happy and kept me so busy that I had NO time to think of any early wrongs that had happened to me.
I believe that anything we carry around within us can be eminated outward and 'absorbed' by some people, babies too, depending on the situation. Yes, the babies need not absorb your pain.,
That is scapegoating, to unload on another.
My siblings used me to absorb their wrongdoings. (My eldesr sister told me that last year.) They were all redheads and I was brown. I didn't belong!!
People can so intentionally hurt, even though they don't KNOW that they are being intentional!!
Love
Izzy
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Dear Lighter,
My grandmother lived in my town. I did not live with her ,but I visited all the time. At 14. I lost my group of friends b/c they got in to drugs. I lost my whole support system in one instant and I was left with my mother. Then , I asked my F,"Is there something wrong with her or is it my imagination". He said that I was imagining it. Then, I lost my connection to myself.
Love Ami
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Ami,
Why would you lose your Grandma when you lost the dope addicted friends. Was grandma the supplier? Were you taking drugs?
How could all this happen at once?
How couldy your mother be okay until you were 14 , then turn on you when you lost your drug friends and Grandma?
There must be more to this tale.
Izzy
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Ami:
Why were you left alone with her all at once?
Did you lose your grandmother at the same time your friends went their own way?
So nice that you felt so supported up to 14. Did you feel like your mother focused on you more when you were without supports, or did you just become more vulnerable to her hurtful behavior?
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Dear Lighter,
My grandmother moved to my town when I was in third grade. I did not lose her. However,my friends were my support system. I lost all my friends at one time. I still had my grandmother.However,my friends were more than just friends.I spent time at their homes and was part of their lives. I was valued by their families . I lost all of it. I still had my grandmother--but that was all . My grandmother . also, would never tell the truth about my mother . So, everyone was lying. My friends were an outlet where I could be whole and tell the truth, I guess. Love Ami
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My mom never really told me she did not want me-but actions speak louder than words. She never went to a class party or to watch me cheer or to a parent teacher conference. My aunt told me that her success in a M L M company ruined her. After her success her whole goal in life was to recreate that feeling she got by being successful. That feeling has taken priority over any concern for me and my well being. If I acted up I got the disappointment card which she still tries to use with guilt.
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Hi OC & Ami,
Oc, I guess your mom didn't really have to speak, now did she?
You just knew. I know that had to hurt. She missed out on seeing her daughter shine. I'm sorry.
Ami, my grandmother was my light in the darkness. And so was my grandfather. They were my mother's parents. I'm not sure what happened to my mother to make her this way. I've talked to her brother & sister about it, but they can't figure it out. I know that some kids get targeted. Maybe she did. Or I wonder if N's are born that way, too?
Love,
Bigalspal
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You were lucky to get to 14 before your mother's cruelty became so apparent and hurtful.
Did your friends get busted or just make a choice you rejected? If there is a devil, drugs are his best mouse trap.
Too bad you lost the support of their families too. An enduring mommy spirit would have been nice life line for you.
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Dear Lighter, My mother's cruelty was always there,but I had best friends who I could be whole with. They did not get busted,but I told them that I could not go to the parties anymore. Thanks for caring, Lighter.I really appreciate it, Friend . .
Love Ami
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I think I would have kept going to their houses and availing myself to their families support......
even if I skipped the parties.
You might have been labled a goodie two shoes by your friends (read that as beaten up after dinner) but....
The warm glow of their parent's approval would been worth it, IMO.
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Finding Peace,
Your comment about your mother only reacting to your wanting to commit suicide at 7 (7!!!) being 'how shameful of you, to threaten to do that TO ME!!!' reminds me of a similar comment my NMum made when I was suicidal at 14 (because of the anorexia, and bullying at school). She said, 'if you kill yourself, people will think I was I terrible mother'. Hmmm. :?
Hope,
It's terrible that any birth problems that your mother had get 'blamed' on you. I was born at home (quite unusual, even by the early sixties). My Mum kept bleeding after the birth, as the placenta didn't completely separate, but the midwife didn't know/notice. Several hours after I was born, when the medics had left, my Mum pulled back the sheets and the bed was full of blood. My fault, apparently. Also, she says I was 'wicked even before I was born', because I used to 'scratch her from the inside' while I was a foetus. Can foetuses be 'wicked'? On purpose? Really? Perhaps I was just uncomfortable? Or sensed her rejection of me already? I don't know. But that one of being wicked before I was even born has been trotted out hundreds of times. It took till I was in my thirties, when I told my husband about what she'd said, for me to hear a sensible reaction : "That's bollocks!!!" :lol: :lol: :lol:
Izzy,
The 'fact' that these issues are 'intellectually' our mothers' doesn't alter the fact that we 'feel' on a subconscious and even conscious level that it is *us* who are responsible. Whether the mothers told us or not (some people say they did, others say they just felt it in other ways), it seeps into your psyche like a poison. Rationalising doesn't seem to help. It's similar to the way that children always think they're responsible for their parents getting divorced - they just seem to think, if I was better, this wouldn't happen. Being adults now doesn't seem to make much difference, either.
Finding others who feel the same, though, certainly does. :)
Pal,
Thanks for starting this thread - it's very helpful to me.
Janet
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Hops,
I've just seen your supportive comment re. us who need it on this thread...thank you so much for that!
Janet
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Classic N! Do they care if we do anything as long as it does not reflect poorly on them? Even if my "rebellion" was not going to her church but seeking my own identity. I must work but I need to be a great mother and take my daughter swimming. I have to be all things to all people or I am not accepted. There is lack of approval every day of every week-but now I put a rude palm to her face and firmly say DONT! oh if I was her clone-maybe THEN she would love and accept me. Dont care anymore
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Dear Kelly,
I tried the clone and it does not work-either. In fact, she did not even realize or know that I had sacrificed my life to be her clone. She was and is always "whirling" . The whirling dervishes whirl round and round, oblivious to anything and everything around them Love Ami
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Finding Peace,
Your comment about your mother only reacting to your wanting to commit suicide at 7 (7!!!) being 'how shameful of you, to threaten to do that TO ME!!!' reminds me of a similar comment my NMum made when I was suicidal at 14 (because of the anorexia, and bullying at school). She said, 'if you kill yourself, people will think I was I terrible mother'. Hmmm. :?
Hope,
It's terrible that any birth problems that your mother had get 'blamed' on you. I was born at home (quite unusual, even by the early sixties). My Mum kept bleeding after the birth, as the placenta didn't completely separate, but the midwife didn't know/notice. Several hours after I was born, when the medics had left, my Mum pulled back the sheets and the bed was full of blood. My fault, apparently. Also, she says I was 'wicked even before I was born', because I used to 'scratch her from the inside' while I was a foetus. Can foetuses be 'wicked'? On purpose? Really? Perhaps I was just uncomfortable? Or sensed her rejection of me already? I don't know. But that one of being wicked before I was even born has been trotted out hundreds of times. It took till I was in my thirties, when I told my husband about what she'd said, for me to hear a sensible reaction : "That's bollocks!!!" :lol: :lol: :lol:
Izzy,
The 'fact' that these issues are 'intellectually' our mothers' doesn't alter the fact that we 'feel' on a subconscious and even conscious level that it is *us* who are responsible. Whether the mothers told us or not (some people say they did, others say they just felt it in other ways), it seeps into your psyche like a poison. Rationalising doesn't seem to help. It's similar to the way that children always think they're responsible for their parents getting divorced - they just seem to think, if I was better, this wouldn't happen. Being adults now doesn't seem to make much difference, either.
Finding others who feel the same, though, certainly does. :)
Pal,
Thanks for starting this thread - it's very helpful to me.
Janet
Hi Janet,
It's so strange... not even so much that she blamed me for the birth problems, but that she was entitled to an "ownership" of me because of them.
I can't even pinpoint all of the feelings associated with this, but she made herself my only source (the umbilical cord) and then, when any difference from her manifested in me, she pinched off the cord and starved me of all nutrients. It's interesting to me that the source of all this bleeding prior to birth was the ripping away of the placenta from the uterine wall... and the manner in which that nearly killed both of us.
The other story of hers which I recall hearing repeatedly through the years is that, as an infant, I never cried. I don't believe that one, either.
Surely I knew from the womb that there would be no emotional support from my mother. I feel like I was too intimidated to cry.
Surely these things are sensed by the unborn child.
You scratched your mother? I can only imagine why. (((((((Janet))))))) The trotting out of these stories is the wicked thing. And you know, I think it doesn't even matter so much what "they" say... the fact that becomes abundantly clear, long before we're able to verbalize it... is - it's all about THEM.
I agree with you that this poison seeps into the psyche. Perhaps you did sense her rejection of you... sure feels like I did - from forever ago.
And I think that if I'd scratched her pre-birth, there likely would have been no stories at all... because that particular scenario wouldn't fit into her schema of absolute control. The birth story was a bit of drama that made her feel special, so it got told. The real truth was always in the many things which never got told and what always came through loudest and most clearly of all was that she was #1 and anyone or anything not falling into line with that outlook would be annhilated.
Finding Peace and Janet.... your mothers' responses to you when you no longer wanted to live... are heartbreaking. Such a desperate plea for help, to the one person in the world who should want to protect you, but all she had in her was to protect herself. I am so sorry. I think that my own mother grew up in a home where she felt like nothing but an extension of her own parents' will and consequently set out to break that will in the others with whom she's lived ever since. To dominate and to control. I cannot picture her ever saying such a thing, but it's there. Always has been. It's the message behind the story of my birth... "how could you do this to ME?!!?"
Bollocks, indeed!
With love,
Hope
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Dear Hope,
Two things that you said seem to embody the N mother. One is that they, first and foremost, care about them. This is the opposite of the natural instinct of the "normal" mother which is to care about her child.
The second is that they deliberately try to break your will. This was the most horrible thing for me. She did break my will by taking away my trust in myself. She did it deliberately,(but it had to have been a part of her "sickness", I would think.)
I really hate facing that she, as a mother , should have tried to bolster us,but she eroded us to the point of extinction(or close) Thanks for sharing those poignant words Love Ami
P.S. There is a children's book--" I will love you forever"-- I think is the name. A pastor read it to the church. I was sobbing. while other people around me had a few tears. It touched me in such a deep place. See if you can find it and let me know.I would love to hear your reaction to it. It is about a mother's love. .
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Dear Hope,
Two things that you said seem to embody the N mother. One is that they, first and foremost, care about them. This is the opposite of the natural instinct of the "normal" mother which is to care about her child.
The second is that they deliberately try to break your will. This was the most horrible thing for me. She did break my will by taking away my trust in myself. She did it deliberately,(but it had to have been a part of her "sickness", I would think.)
I really hate facing that she, as a mother , should have tried to bolster us,but she eroded us to the point of extinction(or close) Thanks for sharing those poignant words Love Ami
P.S. There is a children's book--" I will love you forever"-- I think is the name. A pastor read it to the church. I was sobbing. while other people around me had a few tears. It touched me in such a deep place. See if you can find it and let me know.I would love to hear your reaction to it. It is about a mother's love. .
Dear Ami,
Thank you.
There's a little book like that which I always read to my son - Owly. "How much do you love me, mama?"...
The "correct" answer, of course = More than myself, son. The expression of this answer in this little book always made my son's face glow :) and mine!
There's a question which I still ask myself...
How is it that I know this... and she doesn't?
Surely it is not upbringing alone.
How can a mother raise a child and never once say, "I love you" ?
I didn't say it to my children because I learned it from experience. I said it because I couldn't NOT say it. It poured out from me.
What poured out from her was... intense in its lack of expression. I think she had the sort of "love" for me which she has for her little ceramic rabbit on her deck. She can admire it and cherish it and talk about how very sweet it is and how wonderful it makes her feel just to gaze at it through her window...
just as long as it doesn't come to life and start hopping into her flowers, nibbling at the leaves and leaving raisinettes all over the deck.
She didn't have a horrible childhood, to the best of my knowledge.
There was some deprivation of material stuff... it was the Great Depression, after all... but I know that sort of experience doesn't have this effect on all who endure it. We don't have much... and I know many folks who don't... but they don't resent it. They don't allow it to turn them into anal, miserable, insufferably self-centered bores. They don't spend their lives hoarding everything unto themselves lest they be somehow "cheated" of their just desserts.
I wonder what murdered her natural instinct that she could objectify me so.
And still, my mother is not the pathological liar which is the NPD trademark.
Grandiosity, yes... and all the rest. Lying - no.
Perhaps 10 on the scale makes NPD and she is a 9.
I dunno.
About the will-breaking... I don't think she even had a clue that it was normal and natural and positive that HER child should have a will independent of hers.
After all, (maybe she thought...) she'd never differentiated herself from her parents' will... she was a good little girl. Surely that was how it was supposed to be.
Good little girls (and surely she'd never have anything BUT a good little girl) always reflected their parents' glory.
Others received her disdain and contempt... including my father.
But I --- was merely an extension of herself. Her disdain and contempt for me had to be stuffed... as though it then became invisible.
As if!!
It was the elephant in the midst of the room... and I swallowed it whole.
I don't want to love myself like she does.
Only God is worthy of all that.
I've made a note about that book, Ami - thank you.
Also going to re-read one from some time ago - The Sacred Romance - by Brent Curtis and John Eldridge
It's subtitle is - "Drawing Closer to the Heart of God".
I hope that you have a peaceful day, Ami.
With love,
Hope
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Classic N! Do they care if we do anything as long as it does not reflect poorly on them? Even if my "rebellion" was not going to her church but seeking my own identity. I must work but I need to be a great mother and take my daughter swimming. I have to be all things to all people or I am not accepted. There is lack of approval every day of every week-but now I put a rude palm to her face and firmly say DONT! oh if I was her clone-maybe THEN she would love and accept me. Dont care anymore
Dear Kelly,
I just saw what you'd posted here and wanted to thank you!
That is it exactly - my mother didn't care what I did, as long as nobody thought poorly of her. I was irrelevant.
And for you... instead of encouraging you to be the person God created you to be, it sounds as though your mother only wanted a replication of herself... the model of perfection which she THINKS she's achieved by aiming so high, by setting such unattainable standards for those around her.
Our mission in life, I think, was to help our mothers maintain the illusion that they had everything under control.
As a very young girl, I think that I was rebelling against all the denial in our household by refusing to be placated by something like... like my dad's offer of a bowl of ice cream. He found solace in alcohol and food. He wanted to teach me to do the same. I refused. My very presence in the home aggravated him because of that... that "suggestion" that just maybe there was something going on which shouldn't, couldn't be smothered by gluttony.
Joyful and exuberant didn't suit her (too much like dad). Somber and thoughtful didn't suit him (too real). The lesson learned - don't have any feelings at all - such troublesome things they are. Simply be invisible.
Allow them both to just reflect themselves off you and don't allow any of YOU to be glimpsed through the cracked mirror. Reflect me, said one - - No! Reflect ME, said the other. ugh.
You know, I don't think that I could have felt like any more of a wishbone in their hands if they'd just divorced and used me in their tug-a-war in a more outright way.
Thanks, Kelly... your "I have to be all things to all people" - I just realized, that's what hit a nerve. I never saw it so clearly before.
God bless you.
With love,
Hope
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Hope,
The ironic thing about my birth, I've been told (by both parents) is that I was the only one who was 'planned'. I think this gave my NMUm more of an idea that I would be 'hers' - she even said to me once, in my late twenties, when I was at the end of my teher with trying to placate her ' But I had you so that you'd stay with me forever'.
Aaarrgghhh!!! How scary!!
Do normal parents EVER feel that they have children for their own, consciously selfish, reasons?
Pal,
Would you mind telling me where in sibling order you come in your family? Were you the first one? The only one? I am the middle one, so I always felt that was a disadvantage, too, because my elder brother was my Dad's favourite, and my younger sister was my NMum's favourite (Golden Child). Do you think that makes a difference? I wasn't even 'special enough' that way, either.
CB,
Yes, I think my Mum's opinion of herself was *really* rock-bottom, even though she'd never admit it. So she hated to see me exceed her in any way, as that was so threatening to her. Trouble was, I seemed to set her off simply by existing.
Janet
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Hope,
I've just thought of something else relevant to what you were saying about sensing the rejection at such a young age.
Apparently, I had a 'milk intolerance' when I was tiny, almost from birth. I realise it must have made my Mum worried, and panicky (well, a normal mother would've, I suppose), but that was another thing that I got told over and over again was due to my being 'difficult'. God, how I hate that word!
Anyway, what I've just realised, is that possibly, it wasn't 'intolerance' of a dietary kind, but the most basic rejection of a person that you can possibly have - to reject the food they offer you. I do feel, even now, that if I make food for someone and they don't want it (as when my stepson and his girlfriend visited recently, for anyone who remembers that 'argument'), I know *I* feel it as an enormous rejection of *ME* personally, not just a rejection of the food.
By the way, I always loved it when my Dad cooked for me (still do) :)
Janet
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Hi Janet & friends,
Janet-
Wow, good question. Lets see: I'm my mom's first kid. After she & my dad boke up (I was 9months old), she married again, (no kids) Married a third time & had 2 boys. I'm 6 yrs older than one & 8 yrs older than the other. I am the oldest, & did take care of my brothers, but I was SEPERATE.
My mom always told me "You are NOT ---- Kids". So..I always wondered where I fit. Don't get me wrong-my stepdad was nicer to me than my real mom was, but she hated that & always made me feel alone. Plus, stepdad did not stand up to her when she said that, so that hurt.
When I moved out (kicked out) at 18, life went on without me. My mom divorced my stepdad after 30 yrs of marriage, & he died a broken man a few yrs later. She's been with my now stepdad for almost 15 yrs. No kids, but she HAS turned HIM against HIS kids, so I guess she felt her work wasn't done.
Love,
Bigalspal
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Dear Kelly,
I tried the clone and it does not work-either. In fact, she did not even realize or know that I had sacrificed my life to be her clone. She was and is always "whirling" . The whirling dervishes whirl round and round, oblivious to anything and everything around them Love Ami
Dear Ami:
Did you educate yourself to become a therapist, to become your mother's clone?
Why didn't you do anything with that education...... did her continued poor treatment just turn you off completely to the T field, in general?
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Dear Lighter,
After I got out of graduate school, I applied for a job with a psychologist. I walked in and he said,"I have been waiting for an Assistant and you are it." He had a natural medicine practice-- accupuncture, homeopathy, energetic medicine.. So, I never practiced therapy.
I am turned off therapy for so, many many reasons that I will write about it on a new thread,if you are interested . Hope that you are doing better, Friend . Love Ami
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Pal,
That's interesting about where you come in the 'families' of your NMum, and that she felt it necessary to even turn stepchildren away from their father. Could that have been because she felt threatened by 'normal' realtionships, or that she didn't want competition with his children for his time & attention?
Janet
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Dear Lighter,
After I got out of graduate school, I applied for a job with a psychologist. I walked in and he said,"I have been waiting for an Assistant and you are it." He had a natural medicine practice-- accupuncture, homeopathy, energetic medicine.. So, I never practiced therapy.
I am turned off therapy for so, many many reasons that I will write about it on a new thread,if you are interested . Hope that you are doing better, Friend . Love Ami
I can only guess how your N mother, who is still a Therapist?, whipped you around with psycho babble .
Very scary.
It must not have helped that she's been running to her own therapist, for the last 30 years, finding support and validation every time you rattled her cage.
To top it all off you thought cloning yourself in her image, becoming a T, would make her love you and then that didn't happen.
I'm glad you found the homepathic world fulfilling..... you get a chance to use some of your education?
How's that group you joined going? So glad you can at least seek some kind of RLS.
A thread about the group would be nice. Are there more reasons why you don't appreciate therapists?
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Janet,
That's another good question. I think she was just MEAN. She didn't seem to be competing with anyone for affection. She seemed to hate all of us. But, you might be right, as I sit & think about it, she hated me more, so I bet she felt the need to separate me & my stepdad.
I do have a nice memory about my poor stepdad.
I guess I was about 7 & I wanted popcorn money (school had popcorn for sale on Friday) & I knew better than to ask her, so I'm ashamed to say I stole it out of her purse.
She of course found out I took it & demanded my stepfather whip me HARD with a hairbrush. I mean he put marks on me.
After mother went to bed, he snuck in my room & put salve on my wounds. He was just crying his eyes out & telling me he was sorry. I knew he loved me & felt sorry for me, but he just was not strong enough to stand up to her.
He became very obese as the years went by & started to drink. My mother never missed the opportunity to put him down. That made it so much worse. He just turned into a slobbering drunk & died a few yrs later. Of course my mother had no sympathy for him, & to this day talks about how awful he was. I think an N cannot realize it's "cause & effect". You keep being so mean & unloving to a person & they can become what you say they are. Even if you don't start out that way, which he didn't.
Love,
Bigalspal
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Pal,
I'm so sorry. That's a sad memory, while a happy one at the same time, if you see what I mean.
My Dad became an alcoholic, I'm sure now, beacuse of living with HER for 37 years. He had a nervous breakdown when I was 5 (due to work stress) and I remeber her telling me (at 5!) that he did it 'on purpose', 'as if I haven't got enough on my plate with 3 kids!', etc)
What they do to their partners, it's horrible. My Dad was always weak, I know, but like your stepdad, he has a really good side. I'm glad I've got some of his traits - a sharp sense of humour, and a voracious need for books.
Much rather be like HIM than like HER, as my sister has done.
I've just thought of something - I stole some money from my Mum once. I'd forgotten that. I did it to buy my sister a Christmas present, because we didn't get hardly any pocket money, but my sister had let it be known what she wanted, and I didn't have enough. WOW, did I pay for that one! 'Not speaking' for weeks from my NMum, and the subject brought up for YEARS in company, as if I was some arch-criminal!
The fact that she used to steal from the hospital where she worked doesn't count as stealing, I suppose??? No, not to an N.
Janet
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Janet,
That's sooo funny! Yeah, when THEY steal, it's DIFFERENT.
I know what you mean. My mother ripped off her own grandkids.
It's different. OMG. Who in the world do they think they are fooling??
Love,
Bigalspal
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Pal,
Here's an EVEN BIGGER one that she did...
After I went NC with her, she blamed me for 'outing' her at family therapy sessions over her affairs that she'd been having for years. She and my Dad argued about it, and my Mum told him to get a divorce (note: not 'she got a divorce'). She wanted to be able to tell people that it wasn't HER fault - he'd been the one to apply for it. That made HER in the right.
Anyway, when it came to the actual divorce getting sorted, she refused to give him the money for half the house (even though HE'D paid for all the mortgage payments, for years), because she said 'I WANT IT'. Simple.
So my Dad had to use his retirement income to start from scratch and buy a tiny flat, while she stayed in a large house that even 10 years ago was worth £250,000.
And that's not stealing?
And THEN she said *I* had been written out of her will, because *I'D* been unfair to HER.
And she convinced my Dad to leave everything in his ill to her, because 'she deserved it'. Even after the divorce.
The gall of these N's!
Anyway, back to the theme of this thread: I *do* feel lucky to be alive, mainly because however badly I think of myself sometimes, I'll never be as awful as HER. And that's worth celebrating.
Janet
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Dear Pal,
I am just crying feeling how you must have felt when you were hit for wanting a simple thing-- like popcorn. Then , how much a little touch from your step father meant to you. It is so, so ,so sad. It makes me think of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man had all the good things in life. Lazarus was the beggar and the dogs licked his sores. When Lazarus got to heaven he was comforted. I think of myself as the beggar and can only imagine the comfort that I will have.
My F used to do little things like that for me. I used to just love any tenderness and kindness. I still do. I am so hungry for a gentle touch. It feels so wonderful to have any comfort b/c we have had so little.I was telling my Aunt today how I used to see the love and patience that she had with her kids. The oldest would have been called 'hyper" today,but she just gave him love and care. Today, he is a dentist. He loves her and takes good care of her. What you sow ,you reap.
She said ,"Of course, I gave them love. I would not know what else to do".it was so obvious to her-- like breathing. That struck me as so "strange" b/c it was so normal. When I talk to her, I feel like I enter a normal zone. I am used to a crazy zone with my mother . I am so used to it that I am shocked when someone is "normal"
Anyway, my father would come and turn my pillow over to the cool side when I had a fever. I thought that this was so wonderful. My mother would put me in my room.,close the door and leave me there when I was sick.
I remember that once my F bought me some toys-- Mr Potato Head. I felt like a queen b/c I got something that any parent would give a sick kid.
We really did have a different reality. We lived in a different dimension. I saw that ,today, by talking to my Aunt. I have been pretending to be normal. I have been pretending that I am not an abused child. Well, I am . I need to own the true me and build up the core from the bottom up.I don't want to pretend to be "Miss Perfect" anymore------ Miss Perfect who had a loving mother, A father who protected her and a loving Husband. Love Ami
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Hi CB,
When I first tried to read Sacred Romance a couple years ago, I wasn't ready... felt like I couldn't deal with being caught
off-guard and set off-balance just then, and this stuff was SO entirely opposite all of the religion I'd been taught forever.
Now it's like... bring it on :) Can't put new wine into old wineskins, or they'll burst, yanno? Well, my joints and muscles might be stiffening with age, but the spirit is brand new!
(I like Philip Yancey's style, too, by the way. What's So Amazing About Grace made quite an impact.)
A "life of damage-control" ... yes.
I can see that in my mother, with all her obsessive compulsive tendancies and perfectionism.
Trying to deny or cover up even her smallest errors... white-out on grocery lists which no other human eye would ever see.
Unable to confess to the slightest flaw... even to herself.
"for a damaged person like my mom, each 'no' felt like a blow to the gut"...
Yes. Exactly.
I couldn't even indicate a dislike for an item of clothing she'd pull off the rack and hold up to me...
it was either - "Oh, mother, I love it!" or - prepare to disappear into oblivion.
In that mode, I can see that the only way she could survive the anguish of her "extension" separating from her
was to treat me as though I were invisible... which is basically how I felt.
The option of lashing out, verbally or physically, was not available to her because that style would never mesh with her idealized image...
or... she made the choice to reject those options. I don't know which, but I think the former.
"N's refuse to set down their defensive weapons..." Yes. And their offensive ones.
Maybe all that envy and pride and frigid anger are defensive weapons... but they surely feel offensive.
What I don't get is - if they hate themselves and have no sympathy for themselves... well, they sure have a strange way of showing it.
My mother always makes sure that she has the best of everything... trying to fill that bottomless pit of shame, perhaps... this is where I get confused.
So I'm having a really difficult time imagining that my mother doesn't think she's good enough... but I'll think on that one.
From all appearances, she's quite convinced that she is perfection personified.
Separating who we are from who our significant others (spouse, children, family, friends) want
is definitely the key. It's always back to that again - trying to be all things to all people - yes, depressing indeed.
I'm with you in that struggle! I am committed to focusing on who God wants me to be and letting the chips fall where they may.
That is a daily battle... and only by His grace.
I appreciate your free-write, CB... very much.
It is so easy for me to try to sift through all of this, all at once... far too much... and then comes the quick-sand effect.
But this is refreshing and challenging both... I will really ponder and pray on what you've said about
these folks not thinking much of themselves.
I knew that about npd-ex... and yet - whew, the choices he made. Wicked.
But I honestly can't think of a time when my mother has ever revealed a vulnerability.
That would be beneath her dignity.
Choices. Yes, I'd say that's what it is all about.
Love,
Hope
P.S. Just finishing "The Remains of the Day" and then on to the Romance
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Pal,
I'm just catching up with replies here and wanted to apologize... cuz now I feel like I'm interrupting your thread by zagging off onto other topics. I'm sorry... not sure how to procede sometimes when other discussions arise mid-thread. I'll mosey along now... quietly... leaving behind hugs and a p.s.
P.S. >>> Janet, I DO understand what you mean about the rejection of food... have dealt with that with regard to both parents because of their meal-time antics as a child, but I can sure see how an infant would sense rejection from mama and react by becoming intolerant to milk.
You are NOT difficult!! :)
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Hope,
Would you say that again, please, I didn't quite believe it the first time? :shock:
Janet
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Dear Janet,
You must have internalized the "You are difficult" projection from your mother. I will say ,also, that "You are not difficult". You are wise, kind,giving ,loving, deep ,caring, independent thinking and fun.
Your Mother was '"difficult" . Put back the difficult quality where it belongs --on her . Love Ami
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(((((Thanks to everyone who wrote such kind posts – it eases something deep inside to read such kind words)))))
Pal – I had an odd feeling when you said that you admire that I could walk away. At the time, I didn’t think of it in those terms, it was just kind of knowing that I had climbed out of one frying pan already and didn’t want to fall into another. Never thought it was admirable. I don’t think anyone in my FOO ever told me they admired me for something – ever. It sits odd (in a good way) to hear that as it is so foreign – you know? What your mother did to you for taking the popcorn money – she should suffer the same punishment. At my low points, I sometimes think that if it were a just universe my FOO would be reincarnated to live my childhood. Then I get back on track and realize that I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
Also, no shame in staying in a relationship; we all have to do what we need to do to survive the moment – it doesn’t mean it has to always be that way and you are living proof – you got out. The good news is that you are in a wonderful relationship now – I am so happy for you!
OC and Hope – yes, IME actions definitely speak louder than words – I always watch body language and the nuance of how something is said when I listen to someone. Oddly enough, this has helped me in a lot of ways in my business and in personal interactions.
Janet – I am beginning to think we are long-lost sisters – our childhoods and mothers are eerily similar!! (I also hate the “difficult” word :evil: – the other phrase I loathe “you are soooo sensitive.” :evil::evil:)
Ami – you said something about being hungry for kindness. I am this way also! I am so starved for kindness that when someone is kind to me, even something as simple as opening a door for me, I appreciate it so much and always feel that I don’t adequately express how much it means to me. (I also have learned that I have to be careful sometimes when someone is kind, I will go overboard in giving back and have been taken advantage of for this - all because kindness is so foreign and I am starved for it).
After I posted about the pain of childbirth and kidney stones – I got to thinking – I think if someone in the future asks me which is more painful – I am going to answer neither – living with an N takes first place on pain (of course I’ll probably get some blank looks on that one!). :)
Peace
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YES- Peace. You have it right about the most painful thing.----- an N .
I wanted to add the phrases that I hated the most"Who do you think you are?" "You made your bed ,you lie in it., and "You're not sick till you're hanging over the toilet bowl' Love Ami
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Hi Peace & Ch & everyone else,
CH- You don't worry about Hijacking my thread. :)
Doesn't bother me at all.
Everyone, This a great thread. Thanks!
Love,
Bigalspal
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Hi CB,
I know! My NMother would NOT save me, either.
I used to ask myself this: WHY ME???
OVER & OVER, for the last 49 yrs.
That's why this place saved my life.
I promise you, I had no idea that anyone else felt just like me.
Now I say; WHY US???
Love,
Bigalspal
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CB,
Yes, the animal with his leg caught in a trap is my NPD-ex, too. Vicious, frantic... eager to gnaw off my leg in a blind effort to extract himself. I felt so sorry for him. He hated that worst of all.
From one raft to another, let me just say, I'm SO thankful they floated on outta our lives!
Trying to view my mother in these same terms is where I draw a blank... almost like a total white-out, as in a snowstorm...
TV station off the air. No signal.
I guess it's going to take awhile for me to integrate all of the feelings which I seem to be able to split so readily into black and white, where she and my dad are concerned. I just keep trying to think back, to remember... not just the events, but the feelings.
Much of this can be explained by a view of both my parents as weak and unable to face the difficulties of emotional responses, of genuine relationship, of... life. Maybe it is as simple as that.
Most of this came back to life because of our recent visit to their home. It was very quick - just 2 days - and fairly peaceful, really.
It wasn't until we were back in our own home here that it dawned on me... we have nothing to say to each other, really. I can't recall a single thing we discussed.
My mother was not "on" ... not on stage, performing, playing a role. That was unusual. It's all kinda a blur, but it was... sad.
Did she actually seem quite human? :?
I am forming a hunch here, CB.. and it's more than a bit disconcerting, but here it is - If anyone is living in the past in this whole scenario, maybe it's me. I think it freaked me out to see her this way... just ordinary, elderly, and not very strong. Maybe it's because I'm sober.
Maybe it's because I'm N-free. Maybe it's because I don't need anyone to blame now.
It scared me to see her note taped inside her medicine chest - "dementia - loss of intelligence..."
It frightens me for my Dad to write that he wants to talk with me privately about her.
I think that behind all of this is my fear of losing my parents when they don't even know who I am... and it feels like they don't care to know.
Or maybe they just don't know how to ask?
So much bluster... and so little substance. Just like N-ex.
Thank you, CB... your perspective made all the difference.
Love,
Hope
P.S. ((((((((Pal))))))) thanks for permission to rent a spot here... love to you and prayers for freedom from all this pain.
P.S. again - Janet! You are NOT not not not not "difficult" !!! :)
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Hi CH...
I think that behind all of this is my fear of losing my parents when they don't even know who I am... and it feels like they don't care to know.
Or maybe they just don't know how to ask?
I think one of the hardest things that can happen in life is when spirits are defeated. I think when we're still striving, still asking...when there is still curiosity (even the painful questions represent curiosity, an open mind)...there's life.
But some people really do get defeated. They lose the ability to be curious.
Ns don't have much about other people anyway. But they are human. I think it's huge for you to see your mother as human.
She sounds soured, worn out, and too defeated to be curious -- even about her child.
It's horribly sad, but I think you're seeing reality.
I'm really sorry.
Hops
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Hi CB,
You said the most prfound thing:
Eventually, I was able to go close to NC and I didnt think about her much at all, unless I had to deal with her, which I did periodically. Of course, I had internalized a lot of her criticism so her actual presence wasnt mandatory. :shock:
OMGosh! That is sooo true. She doesn't even have to be on planet Earth.
How powerful is that?
I'm speechless. (Believe it or not!) :lol:
That just hit me right in the gut!
Ya know..I don't think I like that very much. Her....controling me like that....GRRRRRR! :x
Thanks CB,
I needed to hear that.
Love,
Bigalspal
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Pal,
I used to carry my own 'NMUM voice' around with me, so I didn't need my mother to ACTUALLY be there, either...I could do it all on my own! What perfect training! She'd have been so pleased to know I was 'self-regulating'!
However, eventually I managed to 'turn off' the voice, and it's sooo peaceful now.
Peace,
You wrote: "Janet – I am beginning to think we are long-lost sisters – our childhoods and mothers are eerily similar!! "
I would love to have had a sister like you (and several others on this board, too!) instead of the N clone of a sister that I've ACTUALLY got! Wouldn't it be good if we could swap?
You also said: " (I also hate the “difficult” word – the other phrase I loathe “you are soooo sensitive.” )"
Oooh, 'so sensitive', yes, that strikes a nerve, too. And 'you think you're sooo special' (As if!)
Janet
PS Thanks for all the denials of me being difficult! I'll try really hard to believe you. I like the suggestion that it's my NMum who's really the difficult one :D
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I can relate to the "difficult"...
One that still never fails to make my skin crawl, is when NMom says,
"Remember so and so?" about a perfectly nice human being.
NMom gives subtle headshake and little smirky smile...
"Yes...well, she's an interesting person."
"Interesting" was always code for, I can think of some way of putting her down and I'm about to tell you the story as though I am sympathetic to her but I will sow doubts and malicious notions even without a shred of evidence.
Yuuggghh. My shoulders are hiking toward my earlobes at the thought.
Hops
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Thank you,CB. That was beautifully said Love Ami
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Hello Friends-
I am an unsophisticated person living a prosaic existence, no great personage, no family support, disabled, nothing to brag about! Yet I am so happy to be alive today! Some days, when I compare myself with people with families to visit and talk to, I hate myself and almost cannot go on doing even the simplest of things...I feel ashamed and worthless. I know that these feelings were instilled in me as a small child, and reinforced throughout my life.
As a child in school I had some lovely experiences, but once had a teacher who ridiculed and berated me daily because of my tattered clothes and disheveled appearance. I only had one dress per year, usually no coat, one pair of shoes that I outgrew yearly. My mother had left us when I was almost 4, and my father worked 2 jobs- at 5 years old I got myself to school alone. I would go in at 7am and attend a session for poor children where we were given cod liver oil (this was a kindness that I will never forget). I skipped a grade, loved the academics,played an instrument, etc., and in many ways school was a haven, but that particular year with the angry teacher was the hardest for me. I had friends, but some of the children gave me a hard time every day because of my appearance. At 6 or 7 I began to work in the school cafeteria in order to get the 35 cent lunch for free. Some kids laughed at my hairnet and apron, but I enjoyed it. Soon I became the youngest child to ever have the responsibility of working the cash register, and this gave me some status!
Once, on my rare (once a year at most) visits with my mother, she bought a long sweater for me to wear to cover my rags- I embarrassed her too (she was a clothes horse with a huge walk in closet in her tiny apartment). I liked her very much, admired her appearance, and envied her close relationship with my grandmother.
At church, I was a featured singer and instrumentalist from a young age, but I was harshly turned away from social activities because of my shabby clothes ( I went to church without parents). I will never forget this, and am crying now at the memories. Then, when I was about 13 years old,someone at the church gave me some clothes that had been abandoned at the cleaners- this was a transformative moment. I had never in my life had such attractive clothes. They fit beautifully, and really suited me in color and style. And there were several outfits! God Bless That Kind Person!!!!!
Soon afterward, I was sent away permanently to a series of foster homes. Things improved in some areas- there was someone to actually buy food and cook meals for me! However, during Christmas and such, I was expected to go into a backroom so that the families could exchange gifts in privacy, etc. I went for periods without lunch money , etc, until I got a job (1st oneat 14) . Then I learned to sew, got a little job, and never faced the problem of not having basic needs met again until in adulthood I became disabled, my husband abandoned me, couldn't walk or get into a wheelchair, was often hungry, and I had to wear clothes that literally fell apart from wear!
But things have changed- I got a degree from a top tier university in my "old age", and even though my NH is gone again (this time I asked him to leave because of violence, threats, and abusive spending , talk, and actions), I feel better than at almost any time in my life (although I get pretty shaky sometimes). I have had some major crises come up and gotten depressed, but have continued to fight on.
Now that my NH is gone, I am attending my physical therapy more consistently (he always had something I had to do when I had appointments, and I neglected this important part of caring for myself), and much feeling better physically (though the pain is excruciating at times). I take care of my basic needs, and have decided to go on to law school, and not take a break while I sort things out- time is so precious now!
I am fortunate and happy to be alive!!!!
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Oh, Changing.
Thank you for sharing this.
What a painful childhood, if you can call it that.
I would have given a leg to have been able to scoop you up and tell you how beautiful you are.
Thank you.
Hops
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Changing, your story brings tears to my eyes.
Once, on my rare (once a year at most) visits with my mother, she bought a long sweater for me to wear to cover my rags- I embarrassed her too (she was a clothes horse with a huge walk in closet in her tiny apartment). I liked her very much, admired her appearance, and envied her close relationship with my grandmother.
It makes my eyes roll back in my head to think of a clothes horse leaving her child in rags, but yet buying a sweater to cover the same rags so she doesn't have to see them. And here you are wishing after her love and relationship. You poor sweetie.
I will never forget this, and am crying now at the memories. Then, when I was about 13 years old,someone at the church gave me some clothes that had been abandoned at the cleaners- this was a transformative moment. I had never in my life had such attractive clothes. They fit beautifully, and really suited me in color and style. And there were several outfits! God Bless That Kind Person!!!!!
changing, the person who gave you those clothes bought those clothes for you specially. Clothes abandoned at the cleaners don't fit beautifully and suit you in color and style. That person gave you a gift in secret, and lied so you wouldn't think it was charity. It's incredibly moving.
P.S. so you wouldn't think it was charity and also, I think, so the giver wouldn't self-exalt by taking credit for it. The giver just really wanted to do that for you. It's so pure of heart. I'm totally verklemt.
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Oh changing
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What a story! What strength!
I am always amazed at what children endure and still survive. (I too was in a time that cod liver oil pills were supplied to the schools--rural anyway.)
I can identify with the N sabotaging a 'therapy' time or for me my Al-anon meeting, then therapy. What he would do was something with my car so that I would have to feel grateful that he did it-- change the oil etc.
Is your pain all over or in one particular area. I feel bad that you're in that pain, too, as the mental anguish just doubles the amount.
Love
Izzy
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Changing,
You are a wonderful, strong person, and an inspiration to me!
I'm sure you'll love doing the law course. I started my degree when I was 32, and I'm sure I got a lot more out of it than I would have done if I'd started at age 18.
Janet
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Dear Changing,
I can see so clearly how it would be so easy to sink in to despair. It would be so easy to take those life experiences and let them define you. We are brainwashed,as children.Our minds are so open for learning. When we are told by word and deed that we are worthless-- it gets somewhere in to the circuits. It gets "hardwired" in a sense. Studies have been done on the brain, recently that show that the brain can change the wiring ,at any age.So, I guess that it feels hardwired ,but it is not. It is fluid.
It is obvious that God gave you many gifts. He gave you a sweet and kind disposition,as well as love for music, industriousness and love for learning.
Changing. I can see how your old thought patterns brought misery in to your current life. You were probably so hungry and starved for love. It probably felt so good to be loved that you did not notice bad signs. Your intelligence and intuition probably told you, but your heart wanted someone to love you., so you ignored them
Changing, I know how hard it is not to have family that is close to you. You are suffering so much b/c we all need connection.I think that it is hardwired in us. I am so, so very sorry.
What I can see when I hear your "voice" is that God loves you so much and loved that little girl so much. It might be hard to see that. You might say,"Why did God let me suffer?". I have asked that question many times about my N mother. Why did I have to have her when other kids had a kind mother?.
I see that God could not control her and make her loving . He sent many people to her so that she could find Him,but she thought that they were' weak."
Changing, please forgive me if this talk of God is grating or "silly" to you. I want so much to give you a hug and hot cup of tea but I have nothing to give you except for my words.
I see you as someone who God loves very, very very much. Love Ami