Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: dandylife on August 08, 2007, 12:35:35 PM
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All this talk about N mothers has made me think on a few things. I am different in that my N relationship (I'm female) was with my father.
N mothers are a breed of their own, huh?
I have a friend who is this tiny woman and her N mother is also a tiny woman (in stature). I remember when we took an RV trip with my friend and her family out to Pennsylvania to visit her mother. Before the trip my friend expressed to me all her stress and hesitation and turmoil about seeing her mother again. I remember thinking wow, she must be this terribly imposing person! But I met her and she was like 4 foot 10 and barely 100 pounds! I remember thinking to myself how could anyone this small leave such a horrible scary impression on anyone?
See, I equated N and abuse with a big, obese, loud, mean hyper-critical, manipulative, drunken man! That was my dad.
But, I've learned that ANYONE, no matter their stature or how many decibels their voice is can be an N.
I think that mothers must have a very special way of manipulating their children because they don't have that massive imposing thing that fathers have.
They must be especially good at intimidating with only a look, or a well chosen phrase or put down.
I just thought it was interesting that it really doesn't matter how intimidating you LOOK, it's the behavior underneath that makes you....nasty, mean, manipulative, ....N.
Dandylife
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lighter,
King Kong...one example of what you're saying. Big as all get out, but gentle as a lamb. Oh please, please, please, don't anyone tell me he was an N! :D :shock:
I'm on the run doing doctors appointments with mom. The above is just a thought that ran through my mind.
tt
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Dandylife,
I think possibly this is part of the reason N mothers get away with it so easily... quite apart from the 'Bad Mommy Taboo', people look at these spindly, frail women and think - HER? Abusive? Surely not!!
So, they can carry on (behind closed doors, of course)
Janet
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That's the reason, I think, it is so hard to realize what is done to you and even harder to tell others and have them believe it. My mother looks like a sweet middle-aged lady now. before she was a fairly attractive woman. Only I saw the pursed lips and the mean looks and had her chase me down cursing and slamming my doors.
((((((((((((((((((Dandy)))))))))))))))))))
Did people know your dad was an N?
Love, Beth
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TearTracks, yeah, you get it - the beauty and beast thing. Sometimes great beauty is found in horrendous places. And sometimes beautiful people are horrendous inside.
Janet, yes. That is kind of scary. I wish there was a way of telling which children are being abused. Abused children seem to have a huge protective web around their abusers, though, too. I know that I was afraid of what would happen if something ever did happen with my parents. Like if my mom ever got the courage to leave him. Or if my parents died. I remember being a kid and back then it was all the tradition to choose godparents. Well they told me that if they died, I'd go to my godparents! My godparents were great but they had 2 older teenage boys! How awkward. And they spoke French! Yikes. I didn't want them to die or I'd have to adjust! Anyway - I guess that brings up the MASK that N's wear. It is a very effective mask, isn't it?
gratitude28, mmmm, yes I've been through the tales that get glazed eyes, disbelief and oh my, defending of the N! It breeds hopelessness. Very sad. YES. My dad had a huge reputation as a hardass. He was known as someone who was a cheapskate, would say anything to anybody, very private and self-protective. Nobody would face-down DALE. Everyone hated him but sort of admired him for his ferocity. He drank a half bottle of vodka a day. BIG bottle. I don't know the ounces or liters. We (my brother and sister and I ) once challenged him to go a day without drinking. He did it! He went ONE day. Oh my god we heard about that for the next year.....TALES about how we all obsessed over his drinking for NOTHING. When he could go a WHOLE DAY without drinking! Hah. What memories come up. This is good therapy! No one ever knew how bad he was, though. We suffered through alot, having had the "privacy" thing bashed into us early. Never tell anyone outside the family anything. (sigh) He finally did soften up a bit later in his 50's when he got colon cancer. He found his sense of self-deprecating humor. It was refreshing. But hardly forgiveness - provoking.
Thanks for your responses!
Dandylife
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Dear Dandy
That seemed healing to you-- to share about your F. I am so sorry that he was such a heart breaking influencefor you I hear that his physical strength made it much scarier. We have a little" group "of woman who had N mothers--- A sisterhood from Hell.
Please join in with your Father.Anyone with an N parent needs a place to talk.
I think that you were wondering how an N mother can be so "powerful" when they are not Physically intimidating.
I think it is b/c we need love and comfort so much and they don't give it to us.they have the power to withhold this essential nourishment. I think that they betray us on a very,very primal level. I think that it gets in your "bones' and "cells".
Maybe, that is why it is SOOOOOO hard to erase it.
I don't know the answer as to why it is so hard.
I think that the reason that they are so powerful is that we need them so much. Love Ami
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Ami,
Yes, that is so hard on a different level for me. I am a mom.
I have a daughter who had to live through the worst years of having an N Dad. His behaviors were the WORST during her ages from 4-12. So, her feelings were minimized at every turn. Her dad used her as a little "cinderella", teaching her to do laundry and other chores from a very young age.
I'm afraid that for a few years, before I recognized what was happening, I sort of stayed in the background through this. But as I the veil was lifted, I became an outspoken advocate for my daughter.
Now, (fast forward to present) she is 17. She just got engaged to a guy. I found out the other day that she told her dad ((!) that her boyfriend gave her an engagement ring. It's been 4 days since then and she hasn't called, hasn't told me! I'm feeling so, so, so bad. Very very sad. As if she's lost that need to tell her mom "stuff". A grieving, I guess.
My heart breaks to think she's gone through such a similar background as I have. I never intended for that to happen. If I could rewrite, roll back, rewind, whatever it would take... I would.
Dandylife
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Hey Dandylife,
Both of my parents were very abusive.
My F was pretty big (~6' 2-3", and 270-300lbs), he was a very, very abusive man in many ways, with physical violence his predominant means to enforce compliance.
My M was small, I can recall her slapping me some, but more often than not she would threaten me with my father. ("If you don't ___ I'am telling your father___"). Very nasty tactic - she could self-righteously claim that she didn't physically abuse me, but she might as well have. In contrast to my F, her predominant mode of abuse was verbal/emotional.
I have seen some posters describe M's who were extremely physically violent as well, so I believe that each one of these Ns will use whatever tactics they can to get what they want.
For me, the best way to identify them is not what they look like so much (although I do think there are some expressions that give them away), but moreso patterns of behavior over time.
Peace
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(((((((((((Dandylife)))))))))))
I don't believe that your daughter has lost her need to tell mom or anything like that.
She may not be sure herself of how she feels about getting that ring... and she may expect you'd be very concerned for her future.
Honestly, I bet you are the very first person in the world she'd want to tell, but I think she's scared.
It'll be okay.
Love,
Hope
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Dear Dandy,
I would have given anything to have a mother like you. You love her so much. Once you understood how her father was, you jumped right in and owned it. You were there for her once you "figured" out the situation.You never wavered from being her advocate .
You want to be there for her and share everything
Dandy, I would have done anything to have had a mother like you.Just wanted to share that.
((((((((((((((((((((Dandy))))))))))))))))))))))))) Love Ami
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I am so sorry regarding your D. Please don't blame yourself for not realizing what was going on sooner. These Ns can be such master manipulators it isn't until the damage is glaringly apparent that you realize what is going on. The fact that you did see through it and became her advocate, will be remembered.
Peace
BTW - I don't know the situation, but I have to say, if my daughter came to me at SEVENTEEN and told me she was engaged to be married, I am pretty sure that instead of congratulations she would get a huge lecture (in a loving way). (Could it be that she hasn't told you because she is worried [or knows] how you will react - and is hoping that someone else would tell you first?)
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I am so sorry regarding your D. Please don't blame yourself for not realizing what was going in. These Ns can be such master manipulators it isn't until the damage is glaringly apparent that you realize what is going on. The fact that you did see through it and became her advocate, will be remembered.
Peace
BTW - I don't know the situation, but I have to say, if my daughter came to me at SEVENTEEN and told me she was engaged to be married, I am pretty sure that instead of congratulations she would get a huge lecture (in a loving way). (Could it be that she hasn't told you because she is worried [or knows] how you will react - and is hoping that someone else would tell you first?)
Dandy,
Me, too, and I agree... what Peace said. Really.
Love,
Hope
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My gosh, thanks you guys. I'm truly sitting here with tears running down my face. I really needed those hugs and those words of encouragement.
Man! I just so can't believe how my daughter's life ending up being such a mirror if my own. And I never EVER would have chosen that for her. ( I had a horrible N father, left home at 17, married at 18 (to an N) yada yada) I just don't want her to fall into my trap.
One of the most painful things (Isn't it funny if you ask yourself that question - what are THE most painful things that ever happened - you could name them off on each finger?) was when I was asking my daughter what she wanted to be when she grew up. She looked at me and she said, " Well, I'm certainly not going to be a SECRETARY like YOU." Funny thing is I worked for a fire dept at the time, exec admin for the fire chief making 45,000 a year - only a high school grad. (ged actually) but I can't tell you how painful it was to find out she was ASHAMED of me. I still think back on that sometimes and cringe. Even though now I am in business with her Dad and things are much different.
She wants to be a medical doctor and she has the foundation for it. She has a 3.8 grade point average and can qualify for some awesome tuition waiver programs (she has Indian blood). So, she doesn't even need my encouragement - she's fueled on her own to be "successful" in her own eyes.
I just hope she doesn't get bogged down by the guy in her life. (my downfall!)
I love her dearly and I hope she knows I'd do anything for her.
Thanks for understanding and making my mistakes ok. I know I can't take anything back but I also know that no one else is going to hurt her if I can help it!
Dandylife
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authentic,
yes it makes sense. That is how I am in contrast to how her dad has been towards her since she was about 13. I have been very FOR her making her own mistakes and having her own consequences. He has been very manipulative, trying to get her to do things he wants her to.
I wouldn't really care if she went to college or not, honestly. It's not "necessary" for success and survival. I've done it, I know. And it would never disappoint me, and I wouldn't be ashamed of her if she didn't go through with her college plans. I would be happy that she's happy.
I had dreams at one time for myself - and they just vanished once my N reared his head after I married him. Then I felt trapped for 17 years.
I ONLY hope that doesn't happen to her. I want her to firmly plant her feet and her mind in a soil that nurtures and loves her, and lets her grow. NOT feeds off her and sucks her dry.
That is my hope for her.
Dandylife
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by the way, authentic, I do think it's a beautiful thing that a mother can do:
tell your child here's your wings, fly! I'll be here if you fall.
Love,
Dandylife
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Dandy hon,
We are not always responsible for our children's behaviors either. I have many times looked at how I handled things or Not. Sometimes it was me sometimes it was them. I owned my behavior (maybe not at the moment) but I owned it. And I said it and apologised for it. I am human. And then there were times when it was theirs (all theirs) and I left it to them. It was not mine to correct and I was not going to take responsibility for their behavior. We are not responsible for everything they do, say or act. As they are not with us. Although as moms I think we sometimes think we should like we are some kind of Super Human MOM. Sometimes it just had to do with growing and being so very young. Eventually they will own what is theirs and if they do not I don't think we should own what does not belong to us. If we do then we are at risk of stunting their growth. As painfull as that may be to watch.
Ah but the hardest part is figuring out what and what not we caused. When to take ownership and when not.
So I do agree with Hope and peace here. She may be very frightend and not so sure of her decision and you may be *sensible mom* which may be a threat to her because then she would have to THINK!
I know with my D that when she is very uncomfortable with something that she knows she may be making the wrong decision she goes to everyone else first. They all tell her, yeah your right, I agree. But she really does not feel that way and in someway she wants to be confronted by a disagreement. She will come to me last when she is ready *To confront her own honest feelings*.
I would not wait for her to call me Dandy. I would call her. Maybe she is leaving the cards in your hands. It's your play now.
What is the worst that can happen?
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She is still only 17 not 18 and not married yet!
Dandy yes your heart breaks about her N dad but you did step up to the plate. You did not know and when you did you took action in your daughters behalf. She does/will know that.
Sometimes they take out everything on Mom because they know they can (unconditional). She is not grown up enough to put everything in it's right place even if she came from the only PERFECT FUNCTIONAL FAMILY in the universe because her brain is not fully grown yet and they still would make some very foolish decisions.
Lord knows when I was their age (I sure did )thinking I was grown. Hell I still do. Mistakes can never stop happening. They make get less and not so big but they will always be there, To keep learning from them. Even if it was the simplest as (I know the next time I visit that club on the beach I will not wear High Heels and put on my flip flops (lol) sorry my D found that out the hard way, but still learned. Beach=Sand=Flip Flops.
Remember the movie. Sweet Home Alabama, Where the girl runs off to New York to be a big fashion designer. She comes home to her roots and does not want her B/F's mother to see where they really live and uses a mansion saying it's her home because she's embarrassed. At one part her mom tells her to go back to New York that she wants her to live and be everything she was not. Be better then her and the daughter says, Whats wrong with being like you Mama.
Hang in there Dandy.
So no matter what choices they make in life, right or wrong, we always have to be there, As you are waiting to catch them if and when they fall to soften the blow.
Your a good Mom Dandy.
(((((hugs)))))
Love
Deb
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Deb!!!
Thanks for your advice - about contacting her.
I called and I asked her if there was anything big going on in life? She says It sounds like you already know something and you want me to say something. Hah! Smart girl.
So I just got all vulnerable and told her how I felt. She said AAaaarrgh that Dad! He always exaggerates! (yes, an N trait!) I said how could he exaggerate this?
She said that her boyfriend put a ring on layaway. He's paying for it and SOMEDAY he will have it paid off and give it to her. She said she's not engaged!
I cried. She's like oh, mom! you're so funny.
Yes, funny how we can sit and stew in something when we don't need to!!
Thanks so much. I feel tons lighter!
Dandylife
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Dandy,
Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D
Sorry you had to go all through that. I'm so glad you feel better and got it from the horses mouth. Your D is a smart girl.
Love
Deb
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Dandy,
Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D
Sorry you had to go all through that. I'm so glad you feel better and got it from the horses mouth. Your D is a smart girl.
Love
Deb
Ditto to that :D
Hey, I'm gettin pretty good at this happy dancin ! :)
Love,
Hope