Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: finding peace on August 15, 2007, 07:42:29 PM
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I was talking to my H the other day about how our girls argue sometimes. And I said to him, well it is a lot better than how my brother and I used to be. When he got mad at me, he used to beat me with a stick (it was a pretty big stick – about 3 feet long and about 2-3 inches around). Whenever he did this, I would tell my M, and she would make him sit down on a chair and hand me the stick to hit him back.
Well I could never do it – every time she handed me that stick, I would refuse to hit him. He would laugh like a loon the whole time and call me names. Then she would make us “kiss and make up.” Ick.
When I told my H, he had got the funniest look on his face, and said that is “totally bizarre.” Well this shocked me a bit, as I thought it was just normal.
In any case, I got to thinking about this, and remembered that he was never, ever punished by her or my father for hitting me – not even a grounding or time out.
In fact, I was told that it was my fault that he hit me because I was so "verbally precocious" that he had no defense against my “words” and so he hit me. In a sense, he was permitted to hit me wasn’t he?
In some ways I feel silly for posting this, but before talking to my H I really took this for just normal every day life in my house. Is this normal on my parents part (not so much my brother’s actions, as I assume most sibs fight, and it can get physical), or was this just another way of being scapegoated?
Thanks
Peace
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hi FP,
nope, that's definitely not "normal". that's like teaching him it's okay to beat a girl, and teaching you that you're supposed to be beaten. that's just horrible!
it reminds me, ironically, of something my N father said once (which i heard about second-hand)....somehow this topic came up at the bar, and he mentioned how his mother used to give he and his siblings enemas constantly, especially when they were sick. when everyone exclaimed their shock at this, he was like "what? wait, that's not normal? i thought everyone gave their kids enemas a lot." (sheesh, no wonder he's so f**cked up).
anyway, yeah...it's def. good to run things by people, to compare stories and histories...helps to get down to the root of the problem. otherwise you would just think it's "normal", right?
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It sounds like he was "trained" to hit you and also to disrespect words and intelligence (and females, too). I think you were made into the family scapegoat in this way. I wonder if he ever grew to feel guilty about his actions and being used by your parents in this way.
Pennyplant
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Dear Finding Peace,
Your parents thought you deserved to be hit because you were "verbally precocious"?
I think that is warped.
Seems like their message to you through this was that you should stop expressing yourself... or else.
I don't know whether they got some sort of vicarious satisfaction from seeing you hit by your brother or they just didn't want to bother disciplining him, but this definitely does not sound "normal" to me.
I wonder what is the age difference between you and your brother and how did he turn out? Do you have a relationship with him now?
Hugs to you, Peace...
I know it's so strange to discover that something you'd always accepted as part of ordinary life is really just another.... symptom.
Hope
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Dear Peace,
I think that it is really good that you asked this question( and any other's like it). I remember when I asked a similar question about my H. Someone said two words----- NOT NORMAL. It "cracked me up' for some reason.
Yours is NOT normal. It is awful . The message is that you have no value and you don't deserve to be cherished or protected.I think that it would really send you strong message. of worthlessness.
I am so, so sorry. It was a type of brainwashing of you to be victimized(IMO) It was an eroding of your core self.
WE ,as humans. can adapt to many awful situations. It is a life saving mechanism ,at the time. However, now that you are out of that house--- you are left with the awful,painful effects on your pyche. I am so, so, so sorry.
You are inspiring me to ask some similar questions . Love Ami
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NMMG - :shock: My NF used to claim that his mother gave him enemas every day until he was 15yo. Maybe we have found the root of the disease. :shock: While he said that (he started talking about this as child abuse was becoming a household word) I learned at a pretty young age that I could never trust a word that came out of his mouth. I have no doubt she gave him some, but I find it hard to believe that at 15 he was still accepting enemas (especially given how violent he was). But the rest of the family bought it - and every time he acted abusively (verbal or physical) - it was always excused because of his "child abuse."
Besse thanks – need the validation – so much was off in my childhood, I am really shocked when someone tells me - no Not normal.
Penny – He doesn’t feel any guilt that I know of. He grew up with a huge sense of entitlement and in some ways, is a misogynist. I had a “discussion” (putting it mildly) with him not too long ago when, in reference to his 2yo daughter, he said “I am coming to the conclusion that females are just born difficult.” (She was acting like a normal 2yo). To this day, he speaks badly of me to everyone he can – that never changed. He did this constantly when we were kids, both inside and outside of the house (made my social life h***). I don’t entirely blame him for his actions as a child – he was just acting out what he saw the adults do. But since it continued as adults, I have nothing to do with him these days.
Hope – My brother is less than a year older than me. My mom used to tell me about how jealous he was when I was born. Sad part was that she got a real kick out of his being jealous over her, and encouraged it. I think the jealousy is only natural. My kids had it and I work really hard to encourage their relationship. I just think it is so sad that she needed attention so much that she would encourage this - ended up hurting both of us.
Ami – You are so, so right. It is a life saving mechanism. Now I am really wondering what else I took for “normal” that was not “normal” :shock: I am not sure I want to know. (wanting to be an ostrich with my head in sand about now.)
Thanks so much for responding everyone.
::::big sad and tired sigh:::: I am beginning to think that nothing about my childhood was normal. I am left with this overwhelming sense of what is normal, and where do I go from here?
Thanks again!
Peace
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Oh Finding Peace.
Is there a Finding Pissed Off?
Hon. It was warped and what truth was deep inside you, that you would not be their cruelty delegate.
I know what that kind of young sadness feels like. You knew what was right and wrong.
I hope you can release your sorrow. It's all over, and you must make your happiness now out of
the pieces you have, and the ones you make.
I'm so sorry but I think in opening the door to seeing how wrong it was, you will be
finding peace.
Hops
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It's not normal Peace.
It flips my stomach to picture you being hit with a stick......
and nothing being done about it :shock:
It's odd and abusive and I'm so sorry that happened to you.
My N's parents made excuses for him and denied his abuse and tried to shame me into being quiet and feeling guilt after I told them what he was doing to me and our children.
I suppose he was allowed to do awful things to his younger sibs all his life...... and this was what they received when they asked for relief?
I'm so glad I don't have to figure out why they behave the way they do.
All I have to do is get centered and happy and live well..... raise our children well.
::sigh::
That's a relief: )
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Peace,
No it's not normal. As others have said, you weren't valued, it was sexist, they opted out of taking their responsibility for disciplining your brother by making you do it. How horrible! You didn't deserve that!
But, as well as the abnormality of the actual behaviour and your feelings of being hit and treated badly, you're then left with this set of ideas that is confusing as an adult. This 'isn't it normal, then?' idea, which makes YOU feel as if YOU'RE in the wrong for questioning your upbringig. That's the thing that annoys me, when it happens to me. I remember asking a friend of mine if ALL mothers don't tell their daughters that they're ugly, and she looked at me as if I was mad. *I* ended up feeling bad, just for asking it.
As you'd probably imagine, this bit got to me:
" in reference to his 2yo daughter, he said “I am coming to the conclusion that females are just born difficult.” "
No comment!! :shock:
Janet
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Dear Finding Peace,
My dad and brother (10 years older) have always had a way of objectifying me, and females in general... and pointing the finger of their warped humor at women as the cause of all the world's difficulties.
Your brother's conclusion that "females are just born difficult" is very familiar. I guess that's the lie these men tell themselves to excuse their own lack of ability to relate.
You wrote: "::::big sad and tired sigh:::: I am beginning to think that nothing about my childhood was normal. I am left with this overwhelming sense of what is normal, and where do I go from here?"
Dear Peace, you do have an inner script - a basis for what's good, right, and healthy.
Just because you're only now recognizing this particular instance consciously, doesn't mean you haven't known all along how wrong this was.
I know how disconcerting this sorta thing is, but please remember... you're the girl who could not use that stick on your brother. You knew then... and you know now... in the deepest places of your heart, where your love for your own children has stepped out and up to the plate to help them learn healthy ways of relating. You're not back to square one, even though it sometimes feels like it (boy, do I know that feeling)... this is just another little piece of that old puzzle. You're a good person and a great mom, Peace.
Love,
Hope
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CB you said:
No. It's not normal. Your parents were abdicating their responsibility to discipline their son to another child. YOU!
Hope, you said something similar. :shock: It is sooo true. I never thought of it this way, but it really fits. She did this on so many levels. I was responsible for raising my sister, for taking care of my mother's emotions – she was a child. I knew this at some levels, but hadn’t applied it to this situation :shock:
That is a great idea with the kids - I am going to try that with mine next time.
Hops –
Oh yes, there is a Finding Pissed Off! Oh yes.
I spent so much of my childhood angry. Now that I am away from it – I don’t want the anger, I want normalcy. Anger never really accomplished anything for me as a child except to get me in more trouble, and as an adult, I don’t want to waste one more second with negative emotions – I would so much rather, like you so eloquently wrote (I do love your writing – it is very soothing to read) pick up the pieces I do have, and create new and beautiful ones. I would like to find a way that I can just proclaim – ok - my childhood was rubbish, it was what it was, can’t change it, but thankfully IT IS OVER, and time to move on – but in some ways the behavior was so insidious, it sneaks up on me like it did the other day with my H. And I get blindsided - good news is, it doesn't hurt as much as it used to.
Lighter – Thanks. You are right, I too need to get centered and focused on the here and now, and most importantly my kids. You take care of you and those precious babies ((((I am thinking of you as you go through your hearing)))))
Janet – you are right - it is bad enough that we were abused – but it is even worse, when I feel like I am wrong for questioning my childhood. To top it off, I then feel like an idiot for not recognizing sooner that this is abnormal. :oops:
As an aside with the “D” label – ooohhhh I saw red when my B said that about his daughter. My sis does the same thing with one of her children. It is so, so sad. I was seeing how these diseased patterns get carried from generation to generation. Broke my heart because I could see these 2 babies getting the same label we did.
Hope – thank you so much for your kind words. I think I need to start trusting myself more. You know – the biggest eye-opener to my childhood was having children. In so many ways I realized that I would never, ever do to my children the things my parents did to me as a child – and from this, started to realize how badly I had been treated. I sometimes wonder if I ever would have gotten to this level of awareness had I not had children.
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Interestingly, I had a dream last night, I very rarely dream (or if I dream I rarely remember it). But this one was so realistic and stayed with me, so I think there is a message in it.
I was sitting on a mountain looking down on a town. I was alone. People were bustling around, doing their everyday things, and having a good time. In the far distance a huge fair ground complete with a Ferris wheel and tents and flags blowing in the wind.
It was so realistic that I can remember the scent of the mountain air and the coarse stickiness of the grass I was sitting on. I could hear the faint laughter and the murmur of voices carried by the wind.
Behind me was a house, modern in design with beautiful arching windows. I knew that I was moving and that I needed to go finish packing up. I started to stand up, but was suddenly afraid, as the hill I was sitting on turned into a very steep cliff and I am terrified of heights.
I desperately started clawing my way up that cliff, with terror churning in my stomach, and all of a sudden three men came – they were beautiful. They were strong, and tall, and emanated such a sense of goodness. I felt peace in their presence. Each one gently held onto my arms and helped me climb that cliff and followed me into the house.
I was walking through the house, and came to one of the rooms I needed to pack. One of the men walked up to one of the walls and said do you remember when we painted this? Remember the profanity that was written all over the walls? And I suddenly remembered F*** Y** painted in huge red dripping letters on the wall. I also remembered painting over it and feeling shame at what was on the walls and at covering it up. He said, I am sorry, I wrote that profanity.
We were interrupted by the phone, which started to ring with this shrill, high-pitched, incessant, demanding sound. It was my father. He started screaming at me on the phone. Where have you been, what are you doing – how dare you, it got really nasty, but I don’t remember exactly what was said. I screamed F*** Y** into the phone and slammed it down. My heart was racing and I had another panic attack – I was so terrified that I hung up on him. Then I woke up.
I am not sure what all of this means. I have to think all of this over.
Thank you all so much for listening to me ramble and for your advice. This is a really great place (with many thanks to Dr. G and all of you who have taken the time to write and tell your stories – it helps, a lot).
Peace
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Peace,
You are not rambling, you are putting the pieces of the jig-saw together.
But you haven't got the box lid for it.
Some of us can help with the borders, or the easy bits, but possibly only Hops can help with those tricky bits of cloudy sky that all look the same! :)
I don't know what your dream meant, but it sounds so vivid, I'm sure someone will have an insight on that.
Janet
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Dear FP - normal? Not even close. I asked about N parents - see my post about it - seeming to make me, the female, more the recipient of their N cruelty than my brothers. I remember one time my middle brother asked to borrow my brand new car. Unbeknownst to him, I had just lent it to my little brother who had, moments before, come back to tell me he'd run into a light pole with it. I was sitting in a chair absorbing this - no parents home - when the other brother came in with a friend and asked to borrow it. When I said "No" and began to explain, he walked over to my a slugged me in the jaw so hard I tumbled over the arm of the chair and landed on the floor. I heard my brother turn to his friend and say, "I didn't hit her - I didn't touch her."
The point is, when my mother came back, I, with a black/blue lump on my face, went to her and told her what happened. She looked at me, and asked, "What do you expect me to do?" They did nothing, it was never mentioned.
It was like the time earlier when he had fired a loaded pistol at the back of my head and they did nothing. Fortunately it was loaded with blanks, but he didn't know that.
Turns out my parents were scared of him. Maybe yours were scared of your brother??
towrite
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Towrite:
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
((((((((Towrite, you have been through hell))))))))))
I don't think my parents were scared of my brother - they just catered to him. My father hated women and my mom was an emotional infant with a cruel streak who was so desperate for attention that she threw me to the wolves to get the attention she craved.
Posted on the thread you mentioned.
Peace
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Authentic,
"You are observing and alone"
Yes, yes, yes. At a very young age I shut myself off from experiencing life (very much like Twiggy). I always participated in life from a distance - as an observer. The town and people represent that life and maybe where I am headed.
You are moving on in your life. You need to pack (wrap up unfinished emotional business) and you know this but you are afraid of being carried away by life. Unfinished emotional business has taken on life challenging proportions -- a cliff that you must scale, even being deathly afraid of heights.
I am moving on - and I am afraid both of life (being harmed again) and of the unfinished business that I need to address - double edged sword.
Who are these men?
I don't know. This part is stumping me. I had the feeling that these men represented spirituality, or spiritual guides, but that isn't quite it. You mentioned that I felt safe with them. And that is spot on - but you know, I have never felt totally safe with anyone, ever. I will have to think on this one.
I am standing at the precipice of a huge change in life, and you are right, I think that I do need to resolve issues that my father left behind before I can join life once again. The issue I think coming through in the dream was anger - the F*** Y** painted on the wall that I felt shame at seeing and at covering - and the terror I felt when I said those same words to my F on the phone.
I am terrified of my own anger - and I need to get past this. [on edit - I am terrified and ashamed of my anger - and am terrified of other's anger.]
Authentic - Thank you so much - that was so helpful!
Peace
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towrite - how horrible, really horrible. I wish that you had called the police on your brother and pressed charges.
finding peace - here's another vote for not normal. So totally wacked.
I had a dream where figures like your men came into the dream. I'll share with you what I figured out about them. In my dream is was a young man with a red strip of cloth tied around his forehead and a young woman who was wearing this metal falcon (like, uhhh, sculpture thing) on her forehead - sort of like a crown that has a falcon on the front. Anyway. I figured out that the woman symbolized discernment. The falcon was for razor-sharp vision that can see the truth. The young man symbolized courage, a person who will not shrink from the truth or doing what has to be done.
I decided that the people in my dream were qualities I needed to cultivate, or aspects of myself that would be important.
If the guy who wrote that on the wall and apologized is an aspect of you that you have made peace with....? What aspect might he be? And I see the graffiti as self-hatred that has been repaired, but with complicated feelings around it? Was there anything about the guys that gives a clue about what aspects or qualities they might mean (like my bird and red cord?)
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Dear FP,
What a magnificent gift of a dream.
I believe the 3 good strong kind men could be messages from the father within you. Your own inner father-self, who can love and protect you. (Nothing to do with the cruel reality-father.)
I think the one who apologized could be a greeting from the spiritual side of your self's inner father, who understands about processes like being accountable, feeling regret, and asking for forgiveness and reconciliation. (I'm not referring to any particular religion, just that these are spiritual values, imo.)
Really, that is an extraordinary dream. I'm happy you had it. I'm sorry about the ending, but it doesn't devalue any of the rest....it just showed the tension between the deep real good and the surface struggle.
love to you,
Hops
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The pieces are coming together:
The 3 men are serenity, courage, and wisdom – from the serenity prayer. I have always identified with that prayer.
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
Courage to change the things I can
And the Wisdom to know the difference
They represent three pieces of me that I once had, but were split off. They are still there – but aren’t fully integrated yet. Together, and as males, they represent the fourth component – strength and (yes – Hops very, very much) a spiritual father figure of comfort and protection that I never had in real life.
Iphi - I had not thought that the graffiti was self-hatred. But you are right the house represented my past and me – there is definitely a component of self-hatred. Wisdom apologized for painting the graffiti. I initially thought that Wisdom did this before he became wisdom – but he didn’t. He was very wise, even then. I was so, so angry as a child, but because I was so terrified of that anger (and what would be done to me if I dared to express it) I converted it into self-hatred and I did it very, very well. It was easier to live in that house hating myself rather than my family. Then I acted out in many ways to fulfill that self-hatred – which caused others and myself a lot of pain.
The apology from wisdom:
being accountable, feeling regret, and asking for forgiveness and reconciliation
I need to forgive myself as much as I need to forgive my family, probably more so. I always applied the serenity prayer to circumstances outside myself – never inward.
The call from my father even though it threw me into another panic attack, was good. It was a reminder of why it was so essential that as a child I allowed the self-hatred and buried the anger. It also told me what is preventing me from fully re-integrating wisdom, serenity, and courage - my fear of anger (my own and other’s) and my inability to accept myself.
My head is spinning.
Thank you all so much – you have all made such a profound impact on my life – in this thread alone – I cannot thank you all enough.
Peace
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Dear Peace,
I wanted to give some ideas about your dream. I don't know how to cut and paste the little snippets so I will just write them.
You are sitting on the hill alone away from the town( regular life with regular people--- laughing and talking. You do not live a regular life with regular people. You live an 'irregular "or 'abused" life. Far away is the fair. This is your dreams and hopes for a "good life--- ferris wheels and happy situations-- but they are far away..
In a dream a house is "you".You are moving( in a transition in your life). You are afraid or terrified of transition( the hill turns in to a cliff).
It hit me that the three men could ,also, be the board
The room with the profanity on the wall represents your fathers' violation of you. It is big, red and ugly. Your F does not want you to "erase" his violations . He tries to stop you,but you swear back at him and hang up.You put him AND his violations BEHIND you. You slam the phone down on them.
I see it as a really positive dream. Whatever does not seem right--- throw away.
I am so, so sorry that a dear person like you had to suffer so much, Peace. Love Ami
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Dear towrite,
That is so, so ,so horrible. You have been brainwashed and programmed to have NO value for yourself. it is PITIFUL. I HATE THEM. I REALLY HATE them. Sometimes, I am really, really glad that there is a Hell. You are in my prayers-- you very precious person Ami
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Normal people feel alive but content, are friendly but enjoy being alone, are patient but cannot be pushed around, feel sad but not depressed, and they have a sustainable quiet mind.
They are incapable of violence unless in self-defense. They have a relaxed posture, fall asleep more easily, and have a lighter but restful sleep. They work efficiently and seek pleasure when not at work. Short-term memory and concentration are improved. I.Q's can soar.
Childhood memories may return, but without the painful emotions attached. Anger when triggered will still be mixed with anger from the past, and it will be necessary to continue redirecting anger indefinitely. Anger will be mild and related more and more to current interactions. Even when your anger is entirely about the current interaction, feel and express it privately, and then confront calmly if appropriate. If you suppress anger, neural pathways can become clogged up again, and symptoms may re-occur.
Wel!!!! when I read this I wondered if I am normal and everyone else I know is nuts! The above describes me a lot. We ought to be careful about what we read and believe!!!
xx
Izzy
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Iz,
What about the itch?
Love,
Hope
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Hi Ami
So much of what you wrote is so true. Did you study dream interpretations?
You are sitting on the hill alone away from the town( regular life with regular people--- laughing and talking. You do not live a regular life with regular people. You live an 'irregular "or 'abused" life. Far away is the fair. This is your dreams and hopes for a "good life--- ferris wheels and happy situations-- but they are far away..
In a dream a house is "you".You are moving( in a transition in your life). You are afraid or terrified of transition( the hill turns in to a cliff).
Yes!
It hit me that the three men could ,also, be the board
I thought that at first too, but I got the sense that it was more the board that triggered the dream. The right words were written and something clicked.
The room with the profanity on the wall represents your fathers' violation of you. It is big, red and ugly.
Yes - it does, and it also represents my betrayal of myself.
He tries to stop you,but you swear back at him and hang up.You put him AND his violations BEHIND you. You slam the phone down on them.
Yes - I did it - the only problem was the fear I felt at doing it. It was so bad that when I woke up I had to remember that he has been dead for 2 years and that he couldn't hurt me anymore. Such a sense of relief. So I think that it represents the start of "shutting him out" - and that to really put it behind me I need to get over this fear of anger (my own and his).
I woke up with such a sense of peace this am.
((((Thanks also for the very kind words!!)))))
Peace
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Hey Janet
You are not rambling, you are putting the pieces of the jig-saw together.
Yes - I am putting it together. I had to laugh at myself. When I read what you wrote I got a picture in my mind of me as a jig-saw puzzle with all of the pieces put together, but put together wrong (as though a 5yo tried to put the pieces together, got tired, and started jamming any piece together that would fit). That puzzle looked really odd - but beautiful in its own way. Now to sort it all out.
(((Janet)))
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When I read what you wrote I got a picture in my mind of me as a jig-saw puzzle with all of the pieces put together, but put together wrong (as though a 5yo tried to put the pieces together, got tired, and started jamming any piece together that would fit). That puzzle looked really odd - but beautiful in its own way. Now to sort it all out.
I can relate to that picture!! :)
Hugs all around,
Hope
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"Normal people feel alive but content, are friendly but enjoy being alone, are patient but cannot be pushed around, feel sad but not depressed, and they have a sustainable quiet mind.
They are incapable of violence unless in self-defense. They have a relaxed posture, fall asleep more easily, and have a lighter but restful sleep. They work efficiently and seek pleasure when not at work. Short-term memory and concentration are improved. I.Q's can soar.
Childhood memories may return, but without the painful emotions attached. Anger when triggered will still be mixed with anger from the past, and it will be necessary to continue redirecting anger indefinitely. Anger will be mild and related more and more to current interactions. Even when your anger is entirely about the current interaction, feel and express it privately, and then confront calmly if appropriate. If you suppress anger, neural pathways can become clogged up again, and symptoms may re-occur.
Wel!!!! when I read this I wondered if I am normal and everyone else I know is nuts! The above describes me a lot. We ought to be careful about what we read and believe!!!
xx
Izzy
Well Iz - According to the above, my family was definitely abnormal. :lol:
:shock: Me too :shock: (although I already knew that :lol: ). The only parts that fit for me were:
enjoy being alone, are patient but cannot be pushed around, they are incapable of violence unless in self-defense, and feel [anger] and express it privately, and then confront calmly if appropriate.
To be honest - for the calmness about anger - only if my family isn't involved :lol:
((((Thanks Izzy))))
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(((((((((((((((Many hugs to you Certain Hope))))))))))))))
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I am going to say something very ,very controversial,.then, I am going to go out and get off the computer.
There are some people who are facing their issues without any 'medication" that "mutes' or "diminishes" or even takes away the pain. Other people who are choosing to take medication may not feel the same intensity of pain-- so it is really not "fair" to compare the two groups of people,as far as "getting over it"
I am ready-- throw virtual apples and oranges-- -- at me . I am hiding in an undisclosed location.
Ami
P.S. I am not 'judging" the medication-- just the 'comparison " with others who are not being medicated with reference to emotions.
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I am going to say something very ,very controversial,.then, I am going to go out and get off the computer.
There are some people who are facing their issues without any 'medication" that "mutes' or "diminishes" or even takes away the pain. Other people who are choosing to take medication may not feel the same intensity of pain-- so it is really not "fair" to compare the two groups of people,as far as "getting over it"
I am ready-- throw virtual apples and oranges-- -- at me . I am hiding in an undisclosed location.
Ami
P.S. I am not 'judging" the medication-- just the 'comparison " with others who are not being medicated with reference to emotions.
I'm going to say something very forthright. Ami, I don't know what or whom you're referencing with your remarks here, and I don't want to know.
Neither do I know who is choosing to take medication, or why, and I don't believe that's any of my business.
For myself, I do not take medication and that's no badge of courage for me. We have been without medical insurance for most of the past 4 years.
Again, for myself, I hope that anyone who is choosing to take medication does not feel "out of the loop" when it comes to commenting on my progress, or lack of it, or anything else on which they see fit to share.
And finally, for myself, I never want this to become an "us" vs "them" arrangement. I appreciate you all.
Thank you.
Hope
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To Iphi and FP - I wish I could have called the police. I couldn't for 2 reasons: 1) my parents never told me my brother did it. I only found out about 5 years ago from my younger brother who was there and saw my middle brother do it. 2) my parents were so socially well-connected that a police report would have had alarming repercussions, mostly to me - i.e., I wouldn't have been believed and my parents would have punished me for making the "secret" public.
And FP - are you still questioning the ID of the 3 men? I've had some experience in dream analysis, but it's only steps for you to follow to interpret your own dream. It is not an interpretation from me. I use it all the time and find it answers questions. If you want to know more, all you have to do is ask. I don't want to impose.
towrite
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Towrite - no imposition at all. I would love to know more. This dream has a lot of layers for me - and I would like to look at it again with the steps you mentioned. I would also love to know the steps for use with future dreams. I hardly ever remember a dream, so when one does occur I know that there is a message in it somewhere.
My heart is just breaking at the thought of what you experienced growing up. The fact that your parents covered it up, and had you known at the time you still couldn't do anything about it- that is just not right. Are you angry? A lot of this thread deals with anger and my fear of it, are you angry that you were so betrayed (IMO) by your family (please don't feel you have to answer if this is too uncomfortable).
Much peace and love to you.
Peace
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FP,
Sounds like you've received alot of advice and wisdom here already, so there's not much more to say - I'm happy for you that you seem to have figured much of this out.
I just wanted to say my first impression was that your parents' judgment seems impaired.
It's quite obvious that if one sibling HITS another with a large object, that sibling should be punished in some way. And NOT by having the OTHER sibling HIT him.
Were they big drinkers or were they somehow impaired? It just sounds so freaking NOT thinking. This is not how responsible parents act.
I hate to sound so judgmental because I myself have made bad judgments and have BEEN IMPAIRED in the past - but wow.
I just wonder if shown that videotape of the past, would they defend their own actions - or would they be ashamed?
It is abusive because YOU are the one put in the "position of authority" over your brother. That is their job as parents. You are also put in a dangerous position of having him retaliate on you. Also, they are all seeming to mock you for being hurt.
I just wanted to say, also that the dream, to me, signifies your desire for a normal life (all was normal down below...) but you have all this anger inside you that you didn't get to express. (THE FU on the phone) I bet that would have felt good to yell it, scream it as loud as possible when it was happening. But you probably kept it inside as the abuse happened. Right?
You deserve to be angry. You have a lot to be angry about. Loving folks don't hit each other with sticks, humiliate each other and force them to be violent and out of control. You kept your dignity through it all and that's alot. I would say that the only thing you need to do is learn to express your anger appropriately to the appropriate individuals as it's happening and you will have less bad dreams!
Remember, this happened to you as a child and you had no resources to help you through it. Now you have your kind, wise, protective, loving adult self to say NO WAY will these FU*&#ERS ever do this to me AGAIN!!!!!!!
Love,
Dandylife
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(((((Dandylife)))))
It is so good to hear from you!! I hope the move is all done and all went well (as well as can be expected with an H accusing you of all sorts of nefarious activities instead of packing :roll: )
Were they big drinkers or were they somehow impaired? It just sounds so freaking NOT thinking. This is not how responsible parents act.
Got a chuckle out of the somehow impaired part (dark humor) - I am beginning to realize the full extent of their impairment - and they were really, really impaired. Both drank a lot but alcohol wasn't a factor when this went on.
I just wonder if shown that videotape of the past, would they defend their own actions - or would they be ashamed?
Nope – been there, done that (not a videotape more discussions of the past). They would always defend their actions to the death and never, ever an apology, and definitely no shame on their part.
In this case, I was told it was my fault because I could fight with words – he couldn’t keep up verbally – so he had to hit me. This is the part that is really starting to bother me more and more. This just excused his bad behavior. Excuse after excuse after excuse. Had I hit him with a stick – I would have been severely punished (no excuses allowed for me – in my case it was had to beat the devil out of that child.)
I bet that would have felt good to yell it, scream it as loud as possible when it was happening. But you probably kept it inside as the abuse happened. Right?
I did. For years upon years upon years. I snapped a few times as a child but the punishment for that was pretty severe so learned never to do it again. I snapped again in my 20's. My mother lied to my father about something and he started in on me - I asked him to please leave me alone. That was all it took. He clenched his fists and started coming towards me - eyes narrowed slits of rage, face purple, pulling his arm back to hit me. I completely, insanely lost it. I got right in his face, finger pointing, and screamed – go ahead, go ahead you crazy f***. How about right here (pointing at my chin), I can tell you want to hit me, go ahead, but you better kill me this time, because if you lay one finger on me ever again I will call the cops and have you’re a** thrown in jail. Shockingly – he backed down (now anyone out their reading this – I would NOT recommend taking this kind of action with a violent person). I was at that point where I had had enough and I wanted it over, one way or the other. I was at that point where I would rather be dead than live for one more minute with his physical violence a threat over my head. I think he realized that I was at the point of no return and would call the cops in a heartbeat. And yes, it felt really good!
Sad thing is, he never raised a hand to me again, but the fear that he would never went away. He had no impulse control at all.
Thank you also for the following…you are sooo right about the learning to express the anger appropriately and awakening to the realization that I do have the power to say never again. I need to work through my fear of anger – and part of that is realizing that I am not that little girl anymore.
You deserve to be angry. You have a lot to be angry about. Loving folks don't hit each other with sticks, humiliate each other and force them to be violent and out of control. You kept your dignity through it all and that's alot. I would say that the only thing you need to do is learn to express your anger appropriately to the appropriate individuals as it's happening and you will have less bad dreams!
Remember, this happened to you as a child and you had no resources to help you through it. Now you have your kind, wise, protective, loving adult self to say NO WAY will these FU*&#ERS ever do this to me AGAIN!!!!!!!
((((((Much love to you Dandylife)))))
Peace
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Peace,
I'm so sorry for all that you and towrite and others here have endured from these creatures!
i just want to let you know that you can feel FREE to talk about WHATEVER you want on this list, WITHOUT APOLOGY. The more you discuss and hear people's views, the faster you will heal from all of it.
With my situation, it amazed Kay that I had done certain things with my children that she didn't with hers. Like, I taught my children to memorize parts of the Bible...she, even being a minister, let her children decide for themselves what they wanted to learn (until she found out that they didn't even know the basics, while I was there). She had a fit when I told her that i would film my children while they slept (video cam)...she was absolutely FREAKED OUT by the idea. She also had a fit when I suggested that her church could possibly put me up when I came to visit her...she said "I would never even THINK of ASKING THEM!" She was raised VERY differently in a way where IMAGE was all that mattered in her "family."
To her, "normal" meant a highly CONTROLLED life. To me, normal meant INDIVIDUALITY and FUN
~Laura
~Laura
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oh dear...i'm totally lost now. Could someone please tell me where, in previous posts, taking meds/not taking meds, was the topic? I'm married to an N and, after last night's cycling convo, i guess I'm failing to figure out what the meds/no meds post was in answer to in this thread. Help.
~Laura
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Hi Laura,
Thank you for the following - it eases something deep inside to hear confirmation of what I always suspected but wasn't sure about. Thanks also for the affirmation that I can fell free to post about whatever I want without apology. You are very, very spot on and insightful. I never, ever felt free to exercise my voice, especially without apology.
I'm so sorry for all that you and towrite and others here have endured from these creatures!
i just want to let you know that you can feel FREE to talk about WHATEVER you want on this list, WITHOUT APOLOGY. The more you discuss and hear people's views, the faster you will heal from all of it.
I am very sorry to hear that you have been (and still are) entangled with so many Ns. They can suck the life right out of you. I am very glad your association with K is over, and am sending you strength and prayers regarding your H.
Peace
(I love your definition of normal: INDIVIDUALITY and FUN)