Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on October 16, 2007, 04:06:58 PM
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I am starting a new thread b/c I really could use some help. It has never failed that someone(often many people) can see the obvious answer when I can't.
My question and problem relates to all the new threads that I started,.
I am really second guessing myself with Maria.My gut is telling me that it was not simply about "wanting to have me to talk to". This is what my gut is telling me.
At the beginning of our relationship,I was very weak. It was before I found the board and I was going down. I was very thin and really did not see any real "way out" of my thinking,which I knew was killing me.I did not know about N's.I just hurt so badly and no one understood-- anywhere. I had given up on ever getting better.I had tried everything and nothing helped.
I met Maria through another friend. She really 'rescued" me. She helped me to decorate my house ,which was a pig sty. She helped me to start eating . We prayed together and God helped me to start healing. I was always the 'weak" one and she was the 'strong" one.
I was always giving her money b/c she needed it and I was very grateful for how she helped me.
Also, I felt like I "should: give her money b/c it was helping s/one who brought me to God etc. It was kind of giving back.I, even felt a "leading" from God to help her out. I was fine with it.I felt like I was supposed to watch out for her(give her some money) the same way that she helped me
Then, as I started getting stronger( from the board),i started not being so dependent on her. I was not the "sick" person anymore and was not as "needy".
THEN, she started getting really "needy". I tried to be a good friend and listen .Then,it was hours of one depressing thing after another( for months). I tried to distance myself a little. I thought that we would talk for an hour,have coffee and then I would go exercise. She seemed to resent when I wanted to do something like this.(go exercise, get on the computer etc)
I started feeling like I had an oppression over me. . I really did not know what to do. I asked my S(older) what his opinion was. He said,"Just talk for an hour and then say you have to go. Say that you can't be her therapist.Say that you have too many problems of your own."
So, I tried to do that for a few weeks. She was getting more and more hurt. I told her, "I am just going through my own things and am needing some space"
Then,it seemed like she got more persistent( however I don't trust my perceptions .that is why I am so confused)and so last week she was really crying and seemed to want to stay for 2 hours and just say how she makes good money ,but the H wastes it and she hardly has any.
I said that she has to "rein in the H."
Anyway ,after this day,I was talking to my S. He said to tell her that I am not strong enough to be her "therapist" or sole support(emotionally). I called her up and told her. She was very upset. She told me later that she was "sobbing"
Last Sat. was when I finally decided to be TOTALLY honest b/c I felt so oppressed and decided to trust myself. So, I told her all the things(in so many words) that I said here.
She tried to "blame" me and say that she just wanted s/one to talk to and if I was "weak" to give money, that was my problem. That was true. THAT is why it is so confusing.Do you understand?
So, the OTHER wrinkle is another person. This person had a horrible, horrible life.I tried to be an emotional support( Don't laugh) . I tried to help the person see that she needed to find her OWN core and not look outside for it. She sent me an e mail that had me "ejecting off my seat."( levitating) It was vicious. WHAT upset me about the email was NOT how she "insulted' me .What upset me was how screwy her thinking was ,but to her it was NORMAL.Her thinking was what scared me. I had tried to be an unselfish help and she was seeing me in such a distorted way.It "scared" me. This got me really,really doubting my own ability to trust my own reason b/c she was so screwy and did not see it.Maybe I am really screwy and NOT SEEING IT.THAT is my dilemma and my question.
So, I guess that I am asking."What do you think happened with Maria?'I have tried to be as honest as I can in recounting the story..I just feel so confused b/c it is so hard to trust my own eyes. That is my problem. I lost trust in my ability to see--BLEH . I feel so,so sad and overwhelmed .
So, I am open to thoughts and suggestions. I know that I am in the forest and I am seeing the trees so much that I am lost .Thanks for any help Love Ami
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I wanted to add something.Today,I came out of a HUGE denial about my M. I really,really SAW that she was like a 3 year old. I faced it in my heart. So, that is adding to my feeling overwhelmed. It is also making me see that I really have to trust myself b/c I am alone( a mother who is a 3 year old would qualify as alone---BLEH).
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Hi Honey,
A quick response cuz I have to run.
I basically agree w/ your son.
Realize that when you bevgan your relationship w/ Maria, you were a different person. You have changed and grown. My therapist told me (& I agree) that as we grow, we will be ending certain relationships that no longer congeal with the new person we are, and that’s OK.
Maybe take some time out with Maria. Be alone and feel your feelings about her.
If Maria can’t understand this, then you just have to do what YOU need to do. Maria will be FINE w/o you. Don’t worry about her.
You & Maria have helped each other, but YOU OWE HER NOTHING. And she owes you nothing. If you 2 can be friends, that’s great, if not, that’s OK too.
As far as the vicious email, I know it hurts, but, forget it. That person must be very troubled and it’s not your duty to help her if she is mean to you.
These are my opinions. HTH
Love,
sally
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Is Maria giving you flack for putting up boundaries?
Does Maria recognize who you really are, in spite of your strugglings? Or does she need you to stay in a weakened state for some reason?
Could this be a transition period where you are defining a new "you" and she is thrown off by it? Maybe she doesn't know where you will land and it makes her insecure?
Pops
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WOW Amber,
Your post has s/thing profound in it,but my emotions need time to absorb it. Thanks for responding. It is so hard to be coming out of the "freakin" hole-- at this age--- isn't it?: Layer upon layer of lies and distortions-----digging---- excavating----- mining . Love Ami
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Hi Ami
What concerns me is that Maria learned very quickly that you would "pay for the friendship".
Your life is very convoluted, and it would be helpful to read about your progress, where no one else is involved.
For you and Maria to be friends, I'm thinking you both have to be on the same page.
I would have no faith or trust in this new person who is sending vicious emails. She is a no-no.
Your Mother is a no-no. Mother or not, why would you feel that you could get better with her HATE in your life. I expect when we all can reach a point of no more abnormal thinking, can handle any situation, can tell any toxic person to take a walk, can find a friend who is honest and true, then we are close to home base!!
Sometimes we just need our own space in which to heal, without the input of others who might be more damaged than ourselves.
Is it time for a Time Out from Maria?
Just my wandering thoughts
Love
Izzy
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Thanks for caring Izzy. It means a lot . Love Ami
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Sounds so hard, Ami. I'm sorry you're going through all this.
I noticed something:
she makes good money ,but the H wastes it and she hardly has any.
I said that she has to "rein in the H."
I think Maria does not set her own boundaries. IOW, it's up to HER who controls her salary. Perhaps she's in an old-fashioned relationship where she earns money but her H feels entitled to control (and waste) it? She's said she makes good money. So take her at her word. She needs to create a budget and set aside in HER OWN BANK ACCOUNT whatever she needs to have on hand to get safely through the month.
As to whether her H will buck that, again...that is Maria's job. If they need marital counseling and/or financial counseling, she needs to make that happen. Nobody else can do it for her. Even you. And if he's a true deadbeat, then she has another choice on her hands. Spinning her wheels at your kitchen table isn't saving her, and it isn't saving her children.
In a way, you are doing her a mitzvah by stopping the bailouts. I learned this the hard way with my D. Nobody gets responsible with money until they have to, unless they're born accountants. And she may still believe she's not entitled to full control of her own earnings. She could take a portion of her income, as could he, and pool it in a family account...but that's just basic finance.
A quote I always liked:
Pain happens. Suffering is a choice.
Susie Ormond writes great books aimed at women's relationship to money. That's her cause. Perhaps you could give Maria her newest one...
hugs
Hops
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Hi Amy
When we are in recovery, we really need to have enough space to do it in without complicated relationships and those that we cannot do anything about (family) we can keep our communication with them simple whilst we get on with our healing.
Whatever went wrong in the relationship does not really matter at the moment Ami, you have enough to deal with over your mother and you will probably be able to work it out later. I have found that I am only really able to heal properly without distractions.
Your needs are paramount. You deserve to heal.
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Once again ---from all your wonderful responses ,I think that I figured out what happened. In mid stream,I decided that I wanted to live according to my gut. That involved not being a "slot machine".anymore She did not like that and kept trying to get me to go back to my former self(by guilt). I responded by pulling away more which resulted in her trying to put more guilt on me.
She didn't like that I changed the "rules" in the middle. That is what happened.
I guess that there is no "blame". I was very weak and she helped me. I helped her. Then,I did not "want" the same victim role ( and she was on her feet) so I wanted to change the rules.That is what happened . We will see what happens from here. Actually,I just want to be done with it.I think that she was wrong not to "admit" what was going on and instead try to blame me. This makes me angry? Would you feel that way,too?
I really just want the whole thing to go away.
I realize that I have to go out and live life. How else will I learn-- Right?(What about just staying in a hole?)
I guess that the bottom line is that I am angry b/c she would not "admit" the truth. She wanted to blame me for "giving it" to her--- rather than see her side in it.
I know that she was manipulating me and then blaming me for "thinking" that she was asking for money.I think that this is what happened and I feel very angry about it.
Ami
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PS I am really hurting from all this,but I feel more"real" so that must mean that the whole thing is really "good"
I think that what happened at the same time that I decided to trust myself was that another layer of denial about my M came off.I really see that she is a three year old and it is REALLY painful.
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Maria must have liked the way things were very much.
She had you to herself a lot.
You were dependant and she got money for helping you, in a way.
It was good for her but things changed for you.
Now.... watching you happily chat up all progress(read that as not needing her any more) is painful for her and on top of it..... she's losing your attention and financial support at the same time. Ouch.
Can't feel good for her.
Esp since your situation is improving while her's is still in the dumpster with her loser husband.
I vote you still DO things with her that you need help with and pay her for that help. That way.... you have other things to do with her, besides dwell on either of your problems, and she's still improving your life and you're improving yours.
People who're good at editing, organizing and decorating are hard to find. Esp ones you like to do that sort of thing with.
You may even feel a little icky and enmeshed with her after the time you've spent at your lowest, with her doing all the leading.
She's not ready for things to change, and sound like you are.
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That is very insightful ,Lighter. I stlll need a lot of help decorating the house. We have many rooms that are "Do Not Enter"(if you know what I mean).
She got my downstairs really, really beautiful.Before my H was ashamed to have people over----BLEH. My house was a pig sty with a depressive sitting in the middle(me) She helped me to get beautiful,unique artwork and lots of other special things. You have a unique solution. Thanks Lighter Ami
PS I have a peace after reading your post. Why can't I figure out my own solutions? Yours makes so much sense but I could never see it.. My thinking scares me.Why can't I figure out something"simple' like this?This is not just a rhetorical question.
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Well..... get busy and set some goals with her.
She'll feel needed and valued.... one part of the puzzle,
and you'll feel great about getting the house in order and it'll probably cost you a fraction of what an organizer would charge you.
Usually they'er between 70.00 and 100.00 an hour.
So.... get her thinking more positive and make some progress for both of you.
Think about what you've paid her and what you still have to do.
Do you think you got a fair value, up to this point?
You can say...... Look, I've gotten 2 rooms done and I think I've really under paid you... or I'd like to get 3 more rooms done and I think it's worth X dollars (taking into consideration what you've already paid her)
I value people who can do this kind of work (and focus my attention on it)
Maybe this'll be a win win in the end?
If not, you tried and learned along the way.
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Ami,
I see a red flag here:
she would not "admit" the truth. She wanted to blame me for "giving it" to her--- rather than see her side in it.
I know that she was manipulating me and then blaming me for "thinking" that she was asking for money.
This makes me uncomfortable.
love,
sally
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Maria is a genius about decorating. She can go to consignment shops and make your house look like it could be in a magazine. She can go to dumpy stores and get museum type of artwork.
You are right. Maybe,we will go out tomorrow. We have a consignment store here where people bring nice furniture etc. She can go in to that dump and come out making my house like a palace.
I got so overwhelmed with my pain that I could not see outside it----I guess. I had head up A##--itis for so long that my thinking is not right---
Today,it also upset me that someone who I befriended started thinking that I was an "enemy" when I was not. Her thinking was so screwed up that it really upset me that maybe I am that screwed up ,but just don't see it----------BLEH.
I have had so many changes lately that I don't know who I am.( Who I was ---was not so good-- maybe this will be an improvement)
Ami
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Dear Sally,
I just saw your post. I guess that if I can decorate the house and she can get some money,it would be a good partnership.
I am so freakin codependent that I am bound to screw up any relationship----right now--.I am a co-d nightmare waiting to happen.
This co-d thing is so deep and so hard to uproot.It is many,many lies and distortions just building on themselves.
Oy Ami
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What did the enemy/friend say in her e mail that so upset you?
And..... I'd be all over getting my house spiffed up while I had the chance.
Just make a plan and agree on money for hours or project, whatever you think is fair.... she must agree, of course.
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Ami,
Take a deep breath and clear your head. Handle each issue separately and listen to your gut.
Love,
sally
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I tried to help the person see that there are no perfect people out there(as friends). She started attacking me for being a codependent and trying to "tell 'her what to do instead of just letting her be.
She said that I showed my true colors. I really,really tried to be a good friend.
What upset me was NOT her anger toward me b/c I KNOW that I was loving. What upset me was how "screwed up" s/one's thinking could be and that they were not AWARE of it
That was scary to me. How she was so,so "lost" and had no idea about it.Then, she blamed s/one just trying to help.
That was what was upsetting---- the degree of thinking that was out of touch with much semblance of reality. Ami
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Ami,
I think the so much of the world has a skewed sense of reality that it is a breath of fresh air to meet people who are clear and honest.
xx##
axa
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Dear Sally,
You are right. There are SOOOO many issues here(plus FOO issues).That is why I feel so overwhelmed. Plus I saw for the first time,in my heart, that my M was really a 3 yr. old( emotionally). That was a HUGE bite.I really,really saw that her thinking was at this level. Thanks Sally. Love Ami
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Dear Axa,
What do you mean--- that it is RARE to find people who think "well" or "right"?
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Thanks so much for caring,Bella. It feels so good to feel that love come ALL the way across the world.
However, the letter was written by a DIFFERENT person(Why don't I just stay in my room---huh?)
There are two different people here. The e mail is from a different person that I was trying to help-----BLEH.
Does THAT change your opinion of Maria? Love Ami
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Oh no!
Please strike my post from the record then!! I feel terrible now, lol.
Going to my room
X Bella
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Yeah-----the room is a good idea. Love Ami
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All my life my parents have both accused me of having evil motives, really, underneath it all. It's beyond distressing. my mom used to tell me she knew i wanted to murder my sister - when i was 3, 4 years old. it was torture. i had such nightmares - believed i was evil because she told me so. Point is - my mom suffers from paranoia. the stuff she said, the evil motives lurking everywhere - i could never prove myself, not sufficiently, not really. But it took many years for me to understand - it was never about me at all. My dad too though that has been so much harder to see - much more subtle but also to his advantage all the time. but it's the same thing. It's paranoia - that is what it is and what it does and that is exactly how it works - accusing others of secret evil intent, of falseness, all the time - always seeing that lurking. Ami, I think that it is what is happening w/ the person who emailed. it's not about you and you have no power to change what is happening within that other person.
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Hello Ami-
You are very generous and kind, and cannot bear to see others suffer. You try to help others , even your mother who causes you so much misery, and your friends. Some people cannot help but take as much advantage as possible. For your mother, do what you know is right and feel peaceful at that. For friends, you may help a little in a pinch, but listen to that gut when you feel things are overboard.
Perhaps you might pay Maria for her decorating help. Please set a firm price for a small job first, and no advances- pay as the work is performed. Write the parameters of the job down clearly, and both of you sign the terms (make sure it is a small project). Then you may see a great deal that will bring the dynamics of the relationship to light.
You also do not have to tell Maria your every thought, or justify your feelings to her. Perhaps her long bouts of tears and such worked in the past to tug at your heartstrings and loosen your pursestrings. It seems that both your mother and Maria want you to give and give and follow a certain prescribed role. You are healthy now, and you can interact with them on that basis only- you cannot sicken yourself. Surely you would not want either of them to do something that might benefit you in some way, but would sicken them??? You deserve the same respect and treatment.
Ami, I think you are a very lovely and special person, and I am so happy that you are no longer starving yourself physically. Please don't starve yourself emotionally, letting emotional parasites suck out your life's blood and vitality (only you know who this may be- I am not judging anyone). Then the real joy and living will unfold...
Love from your friend who believes in you,
Changing
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Eh... I think becoming involved in other people's problems is one more distraction... not just for you, Ami.... but for lots of people.
::ahem::
Ask yourself Ami...... what if you didn't take on anymore problems, outside your very own, for a while?
What if you limited yourself and spent more time on you?
At least observe what you're doing and when you're doing it..... so you have better understanding.
I still think getting your house in order..... sort of changing the dynamics with Maria in the process.... is a great idea.
Having the ching to get your entire house tidy and decorated beautifully..... seems a wonderful investment in yourself.
Sometimes.... working on the outside helps clear space on the inside... and things fall into place more easily.
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You also do not have to tell Maria your every thought, or justify your feelings to her.
me too
ditto
what she said
xo
Hops
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Dear Friends,
Thank you so much for responding.Your responses were really life changing for me b/c I saw beyond the surface problems to deeper issues.
There is is much combined wisdom in this group that it is mind blowing.
As Sally said, there were so many issues wrapped up in seemingly one. Once,I separated the issues it did not seem so overwhelming.
The first issue ( and the most obvious)was the e mail.I knew that this girl was very,very troubled. I wanted to be of service to her,but she could not receive it. I feel no ill will to her. I don't take it personally. What upset me was how a "thinking" process can be so "off" and the person has no idea.Also,, the person is very intelligent and articulate,but the thinking has been so "warped" by abuse that they can't relate to another person even though they really,really want to. They feel compelled to push you away and blame you so they don't have to relate.
I never quite had anything this "strange' happen to me. However,it made me start to look at myself and areas in my life that I might not be able to see. How would I know if my thinking were "that off".
It shook me up for her and for my own thinking( made me really question myself)
I have a hard time trusting woman. I had had best friends in the past --up through college.It made me wonder if I was pushing Maris away like this girl pushed me away.
HOWEVER,I HAVE to have a basic trust in myself or I am totally screwed.The basic trust in yourself will be the light that shines in the darkness. I can question to a degree,but I have to go within ,ask my gut and heart and GO with it. Everyone who has ever been close to me always tells me that I have very good instincts( even the cop). so I have to simply go with them.
Also. how warped could I be if I raised two sons and they are good adults? A really warped person could not do that.
So, I have to reassure myself with this. If I were that crazy,my kids would not be as decent and loving as they are.O..K.
So, The e mail thing is over.
The next one is Maria.I will do what Lighter suggested.I need help with the house and I am not good with choosing furniture,artwork etc. If something could not be returned( and WHO even wants to return furniture) I would never get it.
So, we will do these things and see what happens.I will not give money as a ATM, though.It is wrong to do that to me.So, that problem is resolved.
The other problem was "seeing" my M as a three yr.old. I really "saw" with true eyes that my M is a young kid, emotionally.It rocked me.
Last night,I was sobbing in bed. my Yorkie came up to my face and started licking(right in my eyes) the tears of my face. I never had an animal like this. My Poodle runs away in horror whenever I cry.
I had a dream last night. I knew what most of it meant when I woke up. My family was on the way to a trip--- to the airport. We stopped at a school and we were taken hostage by out of control kids with guns etc. They were deciding who to kill. I said they could kill me if they would leave the other family members alone. They were deciding what to do. Suddenly, there were crowds of people there. I sad,"Why can't some people in the crowd help me so I don't have to be killed?".I was told that the sacrifice was already made and it could not be changed.
It was that I sacrificed myself for my Mother..
I felt a peace when I woke up.
I am coming to peace that my M is a 3 yr.old. As my kids were growing up, I saw that my kids were much more mature than my M. I started noticing this in first grade. They had more understanding of others and more consideration for me and other people than my M. I thought that it was a crazy thought,on my part.
I never knew about N's.
As they grew older, then they were much,much more mature than my M.
So,I saw ,yesterday, another piece in the puzzle.This one really,really hurts and is so "final".
I read an Ann Rule book about a female M.D. who ended up killing her kids. When they did the evaluation on her, they said that she had the emotional maturity of a young child, even though she had been an ER doctor.
The really hard thing is facing my M. Then, the next step is seeing that a 3 yr.old( my M) is not a good judge of me. I based my whole self concept on a three yr.old-----YIKES. So, the next logical step is to take back all the ideas that she gave me, which were false.
Yesterday,so many things came together for me.Thank you for your wonderful help and caring.
Love Ami
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Ami,
What I meant was that it is so good to have this place to come to where people are clear and real. I don't find too much of that in the 3d world.
xxx
axa
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I have to tell you the "ending" to my story. After ALL your loving and caring responses,I felt a peace.I knew that a big part of my problem was that I simply had so many issues all "squished" together.The biggest issue was ,"Could I REALLY trust myself?"
Today Maria came over and I said,"Let's go to the consignment shop?" This place has really , beautiful furniture from model homes, close outs from nice furniture stores etc,. However,it is rooms and rooms of "piled up " furniture that I could never(in a million years) figure out what to get. I feel like I want to faint when I get out of there.It is one of those types of places.
Maria helped me find the most beautiful and unusual things. We found two beautiful chandeliers, a really nice statue and some bedroom furniture for the kids. One of my son's had a box for an end table(O.K. I was in a depression for years).
The other one had a bureau that you would catch your fingers in. My S(younger ) caught another appendage in it when he was little.('nuff said)
So, we are going to go back on Saturday b/c I have a feeling that a few more things will be there.
I learned so much from my relationship with Maria. I learned that I need to trust myself .If I lose anyone,so be it.. It is really heard to trust yourself to make a stand.
I learned that I can speak up. I learned that I don't have to be good at "housekeeping" things b/c I am not. It is O.K. God provided s/one who was.
I learned that the girl with the e mail has so many problems and I cannot help her..
I learned that my M is like a three year old and I can't do anything about it.If I hate her,I am hating a 3 yr.old who "can't really help it"(in many ways)
I learned that I HAVE to get out of my " room". I have to force myself to have relationships (even though I would rather hide.)
Maria told me that I looked really good today-- really peaceful. The girl in the store said the same thing. The biggest and hardest thing is accepting that my M is 'retarded" in a way( and NOT the SWEET Down's Syndrome type)
I know that I am healing. The key has been you ,my friends, on the board. Maria told me today that she really could not understand what I went through with my M.It is it's own type of abuse. I never fit in different support groups ,but I fit here.
Thank you to everyone who responded to my cry for help. I was feeling so desperate and thanks to you,I have learned so many lessons Love Ami
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I learned that the girl with the e mail has so many problems and I cannot help her.
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You can and should only help someone who ASKS for help. If someone is telling you over and over that they are okay and don't need or want help then that should be the end of it. Telling them that they should not write you any more is just MEAN.
If the real truth was known about what happened and what was said, the full story, than the reactions you've gotten might be very different.
Constantly asking a person over and over to do something that they don't want to do because they have been hurt by it just because YOU think it's the best thing to do is not helpful.
The girl is not a girl but a grown, capable woman and she is just fine. Thank you.
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Can we please end this? I should not be penalized for trying to be a decent ,loving person.
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Dear Ami-
You are a generous soul who tries to help in every way that you can in a thoughtful and effective way, for the highest good of all. This is a very brave way to live- it is easier and less messy to either be dishonest with yourself, or to turn away and not bother. I truly admire and respect your principled approach to life and the people in it, and your generous nature.
Love and Kudos to a Special Lady,
Changing
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I learned that the girl with the e mail has so many problems and I cannot help her.
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You can and should only help someone who ASKS for help. If someone is telling you over and over that they are okay and don't need or want help then that should be the end of it. Telling them that they should not write you any more is just MEAN.
If the real truth was known about what happened and what was said, the full story, than the reactions you've gotten might be very different.
Constantly asking a person over and over to do something that they don't want to do because they have been hurt by it just because YOU think it's the best thing to do is not helpful.
The girl is not a girl but a grown, capable woman and she is just fine. Thank you.
Can we please end this? I should not be penalized for trying to be a decent ,loving person.
Oh No. Not another Board person, since you answered here!!!!!
Iz
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All my life my parents have both accused me of having evil motives, really, underneath it all. It's beyond distressing. my mom used to tell me she knew i wanted to murder my sister - when i was 3, 4 years old. it was torture. i had such nightmares - believed i was evil because she told me so. Point is - my mom suffers from paranoia. the stuff she said, the evil motives lurking everywhere - i could never prove myself, not sufficiently, not really. But it took many years for me to understand - it was never about me at all. My dad too though that has been so much harder to see - much more subtle but also to his advantage all the time. but it's the same thing. It's paranoia - that is what it is and what it does and that is exactly how it works - accusing others of secret evil intent, of falseness, all the time - always seeing that lurking.[/color][/sup]
Dear Iphi,
Your post has stuck with me since I read it. I have a few questions for you. Were you able to NOT take it so personally what your M said b/c she had a "real" disease---schizophrenia?
If you took it personally as a child, once you found out about the disease ---were you able to not take it as personally?
Is it easier not to be affected by your M's words vs, your F's b/c your M has a "real" disease?(Most people do not recognize N as a disease except for us-- the unfortunate ones who have no choice--- BLEH)
I was just wondering if having a diagnosed condition makes it easier to NOT personalize it.
Maybe once you already are "brainwashed" as a young kid, then the 'label" of the disease does not matter b/c you are already "brainwashed by the words and actions.
Thanks for your responses. I admire your insight,Iphi Love Ami
WOW what did I do? I never knew how to do that type of highlighting? Still don't know what I did.
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Hi Ami - first did you use the Quote thing? Probably the 'close quote' code is after the end of your text and that is why it is all in the box.
I don't know - there's no to-the-point kind of answer that I can say. It's been a whole life story, you know? I didn't know what my mom's illness was, and even after it had a label I didn't know much about it. I definitely took it completely personally and believed I was somehow evil in a way that I could not do anything about - like hair color or eye color. I was afraid that she somehow knew that I wanted to do bad things that I myself did not know I wanted to do. But on the other hand, my mom was so non-functional as a mother that I had to look out for myself and my sister too, so I had to rely on my own judgment from very early, in direct opposition to her judgment. And a lot of her fears I always felt were stupid - some of my earliest memories are of such incidents. I didn't like it when she talked to me and told me her point of view (in retrospect because it was crazy) and in general I liked to avoid her and do for myself as much as possible. So I guess what I'm saying is - it impacted me hugely and yet there were other things going on inside me that minimized her impact in many ways.
It took a long time to feel healed from the extreme self hatred of feeling evil. Whenever I did act poorly - lashing out, being a jerk, whatever - it seemed to confirm my mom's view of me and I had extreme internal reactions of self loathing.
I was raised catholic and when you are 7 you take first communion. The nun who taught us in Sunday School impressed upon us how important it was to be pure and virtuous when receiving communion. I was convinced I would burst into flame the moment the wafer touched my incredibly evil person. I did make communion but came down with a high fever the same day - I've always thought my internal extreme anxiety probably brought that fever on (and many other illnesses in years to follow). It was such a relief to lay down those ideas she put on me. She put some others on me - she used to tell me I disgusted and repelled her and made her sick when I smiled at her and all sorts of stuff. These are just some examples.
From an early age I tried very hard to be nothing like her. Even in mannerisms or expressions - I would stamp them out in myself if they were like her. For some years I felt a lot of contempt and animosity toward her and that tempered gradually and left in my early 20s.
It doesn't seem fair to bring these things up because these things don't hurt me anymore. But this is how I threw all my faith into my dad, which as it develops turned out to be a really terrible idea, but not quite as terrible as being with my mom with her having parental power over me - a horrible, life endangering situation. But maybe there was no real alternative. I don't know. What I admire so much is when people post that they had a part of themselves able to be detached from their parent and able to assess that the parent was ill and/or troubled and/or evil. I never had that kind of detachment. As much as I tried so hard not to be like my mom, I tried very hard to emulate my dad. That troubles me so much - what a role model! Who knows what N habits need to be rooted out?
So I guess I would say, my mom was obviously ill even though I did not understand the symptoms or have a context. Therefore she had little authority with me after a certain point and I disregarded her words and actions as an authority even though there was still earlier negative stuff she laid on me that had to be overcome (I had to learn how to do so - for a long time it was just there). At an early point I refused her. But my dad carried great authority with me and I had no detachment. Also it was desperate survival. There was no one outside the family who I could go to and no experience of unconditional love at all. My mom's family distanced themselves and my dad's family supported him at the expense of the children (as in 'poor Ndad saddled with pups that would be better drowned'). Books saved me, and my mystical bent (and experiences), an ability to experience unconditional love inside myself - to imagine it in general and maybe temperment. Plus, I love beauty, virtue, goodness, music, art - somehow these things fed me sort of like the sun shines on all things and feeds them. It was enough to go along with, though fact is I was deeply self-hating for my "offenses." But also my dad's grandiosity - which is so tied with being perceived as a wonderful guy, a wonderful parent. He loves/d to be seen to be doing things in the role of 'great dad,' and I believed in him even though it was all hollow at the core and involved such servitude mental, emotional, physical (attentive attendance to his every need/command). So ironic that the pretense of normality may have been enough to live upon. But believing in something false, maybe it is enough to survive for a while, but ultimately it is not enough. But I will say that because he liked the role so well, and I believed in him and it, I actually have a lot of good memories of activities and things we did. They are somewhat soured by the knowledge that he did them because he adored his own image in doing them and he got NS. But in his way my dad actually did more with us than most dads and many another parent of either gender that I knew. We were in indian princesses and did projects and went camping and went to museums, did sports, classes, went out to interesting restaurants. We did so much stuff and it was good. The price was to be a minion.
So I don't know if an N parent is worse. If my Dad had left us, we would probably be dead through some misadventure or other. My mom was completely incapable. She would lock us out of the house and not answer the door - when we were toddlers. I used to take my little sister to play behind the hedge around the building so that we would be inconspicuous and not in the open, vulnerable. My mom would tell me on no account to walk home from school with my friends or else I would be punished and that she would pick me up. Then she would never come and I would wait for hours alone trying to look inconspicuous. The neglect constantly placed me and my sister in danger indirectly and she was sometimes dangerous directly. The house could have burned down. She could have taken that belief in my evil and done me in. Who knows. It was terrifying and yet disgusting and yet pitiful and yet frustrating and tedious. God, so glad it is over!!
But an Nparent is unrelenting slavery mental, emotional - to survive with an N parent you have to believe their reality and reflect it back at them like a fanatic. Or else.
Jeez it all sounds so bad written out like this! But yet I don't know how to describe it but I had a good time a lot of the time as a kid.
I'm sure this ramble makes little sense but I guess it's all been just quite the learning curve. And yet it's something that has no currency. Much of my energy has gone into learning how to be normal enough. I studied other kids like an alien living incognito on planet earth. :lol: And I protected the secrets completely. I was a complete collaborator in the facade. A true believer I guess. Edited to add: you can bet I mentioned none of these family adventures on college application essays or to my classmates. Sometimes I read of the difficulty of young people who won't break the family code of silence but it is also about survival. Certainly I would have to feel very safe in my ability to survive and protect myself before I could break silence on these things. Also I would have to be certain that I would not be rejected, destroyed or hunted for telling the truth.
Uh not so sure this answers any questions, but gee I guess it is the most forthcoming I've ever been on here. So maybe it helped me come forward a little bit.
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Dear Iphi,
You are so precious. Thanks so much for responding.I feel like I know you so much better.Also,I have more of a heart and an understanding of what it took for us simply to survive.It was quite an accomplishment. Love Ami
(((((((((((((((((((Iphi)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Iphi.... I'm so glad you shared more about yourself here.
It's Ok.
Your parents were the broken ones... not you and your sister and you deserved better.
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Wow Iph, wow!
I agree with Lighter. Your parents were certainly broken.
But you are here now. I hope you feel that victory!
Poppy
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Dear Amber,
I guess that the only reason that we "need to go back" to these memories is to ALTER false beliefs that we took on. That is the level that we need to work on, now. Is that what you are saying?
That is a profound point. We need to make the false beliefs( I am worthless) change to real beliefs ( I am worth something) That is really a big part of restoring our self(like restoring an antique). The antique is beautiful under all the dirt and grime( old ideas that are not true)
Is this what you are saying, Amber? Love Ami
Amber---- It would be wonderful for you to write a book on Twiggy.
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Dear Amber.
This is hard to explain but I am having a shift where I see from within my body "out" to the world(like I used to as a kid). Prior to this shift,I was trying to pull the outside in(in some way) to try to heal the inside. It could have been therapy, tapes ,books,ideas etc.
Now I have shifted to seeing seeing outside of myself-------- taking it ,perceiving it, interpreting it and taking it inside as information to use in HOW to navigate life.
It is totally different.
When I read this,it sounds very unclear. However,I will leave it and see what you think and if it resonates with you at all. Maybe,it does not make sense to you. Just wanted your opinion,if you care to give it Love Ami
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The answers are within us. The "limiting factor" is our ability to FACE the 'truth"( about ourselves, life, other people--- everything).
IF we could wave a magic wand and face the truth immediately and totally we would be healed,I think.
Since we CAN"T,it is little by little..However,I think that we are making GREAT progress-Don't you?
Love Ami
The" seeing from the inside" is s/thing that I used to do when I was younger. When I gave my "everything'( heart,soul, eyes ears ability to perceive ) over to my M,I became an "outside --in " person.
I used to be able to look at myself and SEE who and what I was --- bad and good. I used to be able to look at a person and see and "feel" what they were' feeling and thinking' in most cases. I could get a "read" on them. It would be like cop just "knowing something". I was always very intuitive and still am. Maybe I have a unique ability on this.I am not sure. Maybe we all have it.I don't know b/c I only know me.However,I could feel what a person was feeling and "thinking" most of the time.
So,I believed it.
After I gave myself away, I did not believe myself anymore.In fact, I "punished myself" for being such a BAD person to even SEE things that were not "perfect" as my M told me things should be.So, IF I saw s/thing /bad" in s/one ,I thought that I was BAD for seeing it.
This( above) was one HUGE twist that I made.
The other one was that I could not see MYSELF honestly anymore .either.
I thought that I was "bad' for qualities that I always accepted as"human" before like pettiness, selfishness, jealousy etc. Now,I felt like I had to punish myself for having these "bad' qualities.
Then,on top of that,I could not face life as it was. I used to be able to see people's general motivations-- greed,kindness, lust, fear pain,,power etc and be able to look at them. Then,I thought that I was 'bad" for seeing them. So,I shut down my ability to see life.
So, now I am in a fantasy world where everyone is "good"(perfect) like my M told me and I am "bad' like my M told me.
Then,I am SCREWED b/c I have "lost " my mind( to a large degree). Then I start to make stupid mistakes b/c I lost my discernment like marrying an abusive man with an abusive family and on and on. Then,I get sick b/c I cannot deal directly with life and myself
As I shine the light of "truth" on ALL my cobwebs,I am starting to heal "backwards"--just the way that I got sick. So,little by little pieces of myself that I threw"overboard" are coming back on "board"
So, seeing from the inside out is simply seeing without the 'paralysis" that my M cast on me. I,essentially, got frozen in time. I was paralyzed from seeing and feeling. I was 'stuck " inside a paralyzed mind-- a mind which could NOT think or feel.(without punishing myself).
Yesterday I saw a HUGE piece to the puzzle. My M is a 3-5 Yr old. This hurt really badly but it was a huge insight.
This insight made a shift in me .I can see from the inside again--- not totally-- but some. I could not see from the inside before and I didn't even know it. Now that I AM seeing this way again,I realized that I DID lose it.
I guess that it was too dangerous to really see how my M was. Maybe I would have gone insane. I think that I lost this ability to see as a defense mechanism.
I feel very "new",now.
The other thing coming along with it is anger toward my M. She "knew" that she was abusing us but she wanted "power" over people who could not fight back.
Well, that is one big part that clicked back in---THANK YOU GOD.
It is so wonderful to regain ourselves after being so lost for so long. The reason that I keep searching so diligently for myself is that life is very sour without your core.It doesn't matter where you go or what you do, you feel empty and unsettled.
This big "chunk" was a huge piece. There are more. All I can do is just keep facing the truth as the "surgical instrument " that will cut out the cancer-- my N Mother-----BLEH Love Ami
Let me know what makes sense and what is "Greek"-- so to speak
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Dear Amber,
I wanted to add a few more things. When I was able to see things "from the inside",certain perceptions that I got kept me "alive" emotionally.
I could see that everyone had insecurity, pain and fear. I could see that everyone had greed, selfishness, pettiness and jealousy.
So,I put myself '"within" the human race.IOW,I was like everyone else.I was not THE "bad" one. Then, when I lost myself,I became THE bad one and everyone else was "good"
Now, I want to get back to where I used to be . I want to see that everyone has these kind of issues( selfishness, greed, fear etc) and I am the same.
I am not here,yet. When I DO, I will be "almost" healed---- Love Ami
Do you understand how big it would be to get here?
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. I saw all the" bad"( revolting, disgusting things to me) in my M.I could not face them so I turned them on me.Is this what you are saying?.I became bad so she could stay good. WOW----- that makes sense.
When your M put you down for wanting to "better " yourself,I had this with wanting to be a person of character ( that my GM told me ). My M thought that this was "hilarious."
I think that I twisted b/c I could not face that my M was "gross"--- just disgusting and revolting to me. I had to become the bad one in order to survive. Is that what you are saying, Amber?
I am really seeing(I think) that I became the rejected, gross,disgusting. revolting sick one so she could be the "good" one b/c someone's reality was WRONG and OFF and I had to choose. So,I chose her to be the good one and me the bad one.
i feel really,really angry at her for doing this to me--GRRRRRRRRRRR
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WOW Amber
That makes more sense than my "reason" for why I became "bad". I became bad b/c two opposite realities could not exist. She was so obviously totally revolting. I saw it. I became the bad one b/c I could not face how horrible she was.That is it-- Right?
I,like you, got so buried that I didn't know how to get back. The inner child exercises are the way to get back(IMO)
I shut down b/c I could not own the true reality( she was revolting) and so I became "bad "and she was "good'.Then I could live in the house and with her.Then. I could have a "mother'.also.
The price was my '"reality". The price was my eyes,ears,gut and perceptions. I had to give all these up as my role as the "bad" one. I could not see b/c then I might "reverse" the decision I made that she was "good" and I was "bad". It was too dangerous to the "system" that I had "agreed" to for me to be able to see.
Is this what you mean, Amber? Ami
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Dear Amber,
I think that we "fumble" our way to clarity.
I am seeing that if I intend to have relationships(which I do) ,I have to be willing to fail my way to success. It is that simple. I have to be willing to make mistakes in relationships.
I can see that I made mistakes with Maria. I learned many things that I would not have learned if I was alone in my room(but I sure do want to stay there-sigh)
So, I have to be willing to fail. House breaking a Yorkie is a lesson in failure--
As we get our core back, Amber,it is often a fumbling in the dark.I guess that is how it is. Love Ami