Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on October 18, 2007, 07:28:50 AM
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If you can accept that you will never be liked, loved or respected by your N, you can begin your recovery. As long as you have any hope of the N in your life having one of these feelings toward you, you cannot be doing what will ultimately take you out of the poisonous relationship.
Once I accepted this truth, I was able to set the boundaries I needed. I can deal with NM on the level that I need to have a relationship with my dad and have my kids have grandparents in their lives. But I know her real thoughts. And I know anything she says that appears caring is a copy of what she heard from others - on Dr. Phil or Oprah, or read in a magazine.
Do you still hold out hope? If so, you need to think about why and how it is affecting you.
(((((((((((((((Everyone))))))))))))))
Love, Beth
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Dear Beth,
. This is the topic of the day, the hour and the year. Giving up hope is the key to the door to a new life--- the ONLY key that fits.
Yesterday,I gave up hope. I went furniture shopping and the ghost of my M was NOT with me( as she always was). I was alone with my own "screwed up" self.
I am looking at my own'" screwed up self" right now. I guess that this is progress..
I love this topic.It is so needed--- always.It is always needed as a reminder which door leads in to Hell-- the door of hope with an N mother(or any other N) Thanks Beth . Love Ami
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((((((((((Ami))))))))))
I would love to spend time with your "screwed-up" self. I am betting that you are fun and sweet and your negative thoughts of yourself are those you still hear from tapes. Time to think of yourself as Sweet and Enjoyable, Quirky Ami!!!
Love, Beth
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Dear Beth,
I wanted to add something. I am seeing two worlds now. There is the world of my M.In that world, I am worthless. I should be punished. I am a walking answer to the question,"WHOOO do you think you are?". The answer is that I am a piece of S##T..
Then, there is the second world where I have eyes, ears and a heart that CAN perceive.Even in two days of separating myself from her,I have seen many truths in life that she "ridiculed " me for. Even in two days,I 'know" truths" about life that she tried to destroy me from finding out.I am learning about having character ,integrity and love from my own eyes. She hated most of all that I wanted to be a person of character like my GM taught me.
So, these two worlds are totally opposite. I can accept one or the other.
The "ticket" in to the my M's world is HOPE.
I have sold myself my whole life for HOPE. I wanted a loving ,normal M for my whole life. I twisted so badly that I did have one--- but I had to be emotionally "ill" to live in that fantasy.
That is the place I am leaving.
I am in "in between' mans land. I was in "now where man's " land before. Now, I don't know exactly who the I am---but that is progress. Love Ami
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Dear Beth,
You are so sweet. As I find my own voice,I am getting my precious sense of humor back. I am getting back joys inside that my M stole when she '"ravaged" me so selfishly for her own needs for power.
Izzy told me to make a list of the good things. I am seeing good things.
It feels so good to laugh at yourself.It feels so free not to be so ashamed of your shortcomings.It feels good to just be O.K.
I am getting a glimpse of life as a more 'real" person. What would it be like to simply be an "authentic person" not a "NICE" person like some canned laughter.
I am seeing little pieces of my authentic self.I like my authentic self. I really do. It is the false self that is the bummer.
Thanks again for your sweet "touch" to me. Love You, Beth . Ami
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If you can accept that you will never be liked, loved or respected by your N, you can begin your recovery. As long as you have any hope of the N in your life having one of these feelings toward you, you cannot be doing what will ultimately take you out of the poisonous relationship.
Once I accepted this truth, I was able to set the boundaries I needed. I can deal with NM on the level that I need to have a relationship with my dad and have my kids have grandparents in their lives. But I know her real thoughts. And I know anything she says that appears caring is a copy of what she heard from others - on Dr. Phil or Oprah, or read in a magazine.
Do you still hold out hope? If so, you need to think about why and how it is affecting you.
(((((((((((((((Everyone))))))))))))))
Love, Beth
I woke up this morning too early because I just couldn't sleep. And I saw this post. It is really timely. I don't think that I have given up hope. I see the lack of love and the scapegoating (my H had a long and painful discussion with his mother. she was ruthless when I came up in the conversation) and I am still so suprised at how much it hurts.
This morning it feels too big and too hard to get myself free. I can't NC because my H isn't ready for that. He is coming to his own terms with accepting that he will never get what he needs but he won't be cutting off his family. So, if I stay with him I am stuck with dealing in this so impossible situation. So, I figure I better get strong on this issue. I wish I knew what it was that I was missing. Why do I get so bent when others see flaws in me? Why is it so hard to find people who could see me as a whole person...flaws and all......and still find value in knowing me? Why do I still hope? Why is this still a crazymaker for me?
Thanks. It is good to confront this.
Poppy
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Dear Poppy,
You are talking about a HUGE lesson.Poppy, That is a Ph.d lesson. You will grow slowly and slowly as you face the truth about yourself and your life.PART of that truth is that you are worth so much. Trust me on that until you get it in your heart. Love to you,dear Love Ami
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Ami, (thank you so much for that little bit of love. I really needed it today)
I gotta say that I am trying so hard. I am giving everything I have to care for and love myself. I am afraid that I find it difficult......still......dang it.......to believe my own ideas of worth when so many others seem to ignore me and my feelings and my contributions. I am so sick and tired of being labeled and ignored because I am not as good or insightful or put together or perfect as the rest. I don't know why it happens.....it seems to happen everywhere I go. I DO believe I am of worth but I allow the "evidence" to sway my belief. I guess that is what I have to confront. So, I guess I need to figure this one out so I can move on to stronger, surer ground. I feel that groping feeling.....like I really don't understand what is happening in my brain and don't clearly see yet what I am missing. I have been reading and trying to see if what other people write will shed light for me....fill in the blank! Maybe it is that I still want so badly to be loved by others. And maybe I need to stop that. Or confront why that is. I don't even care who they are.....ok....well, not drug dealers :) but, it doesn't seem to come very easily for me anywhere I go.......I must be the common denominator. So, I figure I am a big enough person to be willing to self inventory. But, what happens is that my entire spirit drops immediately into a depression. I watch myself do it over and over. Then I build myself up. Go out and try again with stronger self, and inevitably the same thing will happen again. Sometimes, I want to scream will someone love me enough to just tell me what is really wrong with me????? Do I have buggars on my face? Am I just a total social reject?? I know that the N's see the weaknesses and play on them and even exaggerate them....thus the scapegoating. I can see all the logic of it out in front of me. I know what the family is doing to me to make themselves appear like the angels. I just want to know why it still hurts. Cause it hurts with them....it hurts here on the board.....it hurts in other quadrants of my life. So, it clearly IS affecting me. But I really don't want it to anymore. Cause N's don't define me!!! I have got to get a handle on it. Sound like the answer is loving myself......and believing deeply that I am loveable. How do you do that when so much evidence in the world points the other way?? How can I get myself to look all the evidence in the face and say that it just isn't true. That seems like lying to myself.
These are the circular questions I find myself stuck in. I am trying to see what truths about my life am I not facing? Maybe that is the bigger question.
Pops
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Poppy,
When I got sober, I had to figure out WHO I was. It was hard. I thought I would find some great person under the layers of sickness... but what I found was... me. I am the same person as I was drinking. I am the same person as I was when I was voiceless. But now I am able to pin down what I am. I am a collection of parts - good and bad. I can work on the bad ones. I can develop the good ones.
I am... a linguist.
I am... a good mom (and proud and loving).
I am... into sports, but I need to train my body as this was unaccepted for me.
I am... a dog addict.
I am... in love with guinea pigs.
I am... a nice wife, thought grumpy at times.
I am... not a very good housekeeper (but trying).
So... what are you???? These little things ARE you. There is no big answer. But these things have to be what you ARE, not what someone thinks or says you are.
Love, Beth
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Sorry G28. I hope you will forgive me as I try to talk this out........I hope that is the purpose or invitation of your thread.
I think that what I feel......is that I must believe what others believe. Or that what others believe must be true. Why do I need to believe that? I argue with it all the time.....defend myself. But I still believe it. It kinda lives with the parts of myself that I DO love and casts doubt on them. Have made my list....a list that looks a lot like yours, G28, that reflects the "mix" of what I am and also the stuff about me that I celebrate.
I think what happens is that I try to be humble enough to listen to others opinions of me so that I can take that constructively into myself to improve. The problem with this is that I don't have the internal boundaries yet to filter out the stuff that could be true and the stuff that just plain isn't. And I also see that if I get cristism, that I beat myself with it. I don't look at it objectively. In this way, I think I live in victim mode. Kind of allowing myself to be at the mercy of opinion.
I am doing something right: I DO love and like myself (hard as it may be to believe) and accept the human parts in myself. For some reason, though I allow outside stuff to trump these beliefs.
I suppose that I am engaging in a kind of "agreement" with the N's or anyone who doesn't like me. I am doing my part at empowering the negative stuff by requiring myself to believe it. I don't know if I am say that right......not finding the words right now on this idea.
So, how do I change up how I process this information with the correct interior boundaries, so that my ship doesn't get so easily sunk?? This must be my next healing step. I have worked so hard on this....I better get that PhD, Ami!! Ha!
Thanks for your patience G28. I really really want to kick this habit!!! :)
BTW, your last post showed the love you do have for yourself....all the parts! That feels good to me.
Poppy
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I just wanted to add....that I was feeling low last night and this morning. But now, I am feeling better. Like I care less what they think. I must be thinking a little healthier, eh?? :) I am going to start my day practicing....... So, ttfn! I am off to preschool!
Pops
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Poppy:
I think we want to believe other's perceptions of us more than our own - because we didn't have the parental reassurance children must have to develop their identity and self-worth. We keep searching for the person who can truly SEE us as we are and accept us and say "it is good".
YES! Thank you for adding it. I have thought about this before. I appreciate you shedding light. This is SOOO my pattern throughout my life. So, the answer is that I must now be that person that truly sees me and accepts and appreciates that it is good.
I am getting it???????????
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Hey Ami! YOU aren't screwed up - the mask you created to survive your mom is what's screwed up!
Dear Amber,
THAT WAS BRILLIANT and even more (for me). I GET IT. YEAAAAAH
Love Ami
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Poppy,
Never apologize for working out things here - that's what we are here for. I put in my two cents in hopes that it would make sense for someone else, but I am far from figuring it all out. So far, that is what I see for me...
But I still suffer, too, from an inability to see myself right. I went from being self-assured to being very tentative about myself. I have made one huge step, which is that I have stopped saying sorry for everything in the world... I found out I am not responsible for everything and everyone. But I still tend towards wanting to help out when someone has made a mess...
We are moving forward, Poppy!!!!
Love, Beth
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Beth,
Thanks for the freedom to explore. I so appreciate your thoughts. They really validate my strugglings inside -- sometimes the ones I am not so good at expressing.
You are a gentle soul!!
Love Poppy!
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Dear Poppy,
I think that if you just keep expressing yourself( as fearlessly as possible) you will become clearer inside.
It is scary,sometimes,but just saying things "out loud" can begin the healing process.
I am waiting to hear. Love Ami
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I agree, Ami. And when I am really confused, usually I can lay out my problem here and many are able to help me clarify and see a solution. This place has been so wonderful for me. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees - to use a cheesy cliche!!!!
Love, Beth
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Cheesy but true,Beth.
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I know I am in the forest cuz I keep bumpin' into the trees!!! Bump!! :shock:
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm pretty bruised too!!!!
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If you can accept that you will never be liked, loved or respected by your N, you can begin your recovery. As long as you have any hope of the N in your life having one of these feelings toward you, you cannot be doing what will ultimately take you out of the poisonous relationship.
Once I accepted this truth, I was able to set the boundaries I needed. I can deal with NM on the level that I need to have a relationship with my dad and have my kids have grandparents in their lives. But I know her real thoughts. And I know anything she says that appears caring is a copy of what she heard from others - on Dr. Phil or Oprah, or read in a magazine.
Do you still hold out hope? If so, you need to think about why and how it is affecting you.
I think many of us have ideals we want for relationships with our N's. We want them to work. We want them to work so badly. We want to have the mother or father we've always dreamed of having and never gotten, and we think that if we give up ourselves that maybe that will be enough, maybe if we give just a little more, we'll get what we want.
Unfortunately, our N's just aren't capable of seeing the sacrifice we've made for them. The more we give, the more they want to take. The more we give, the more they see it as their right to have.
I don't know that I'm quite there, but I think I'm getting close. I'm getting close to being able to say, I know you aren't going to love me like I want to be loved, so why are we playing this game. I was a huge disappointment to my mom, and she's made sure I know how much I've hurt/disappointed/embarrassed/ruined her. There's a very selfish part of me that will be very relieved and glad when she's gone. It causes me alot of guilt. I've been thinking about boundaries a lot, about how much contact I want to have with her. I know at some point I'll have to have some contact with her, but I don't know how much. I'd rather it be as little as possible.
She was telling my brother last night that she didn't think she would see M until Christmas. I don't think that's true, but I could certainly live with that.
Poppy, what I think we want from other people is validation. We want to know that people we care about agree with and support our decisions. It's not so much that we want to believe what they say, as much as we want validation for those things we already believe. So when we say, I am a good writer, we want someone to validate that, agree with us. It gives us a little boost of self esteem.
I was reading a book about self esteem last night, or looking through it rather, and one of things I read I really thought about. It said self esteem is about doing what feels right. One of the example they gave was a man who was always getting praised for his good work, even though he was doing just enough to get by. Only he did better work than most people, but he didn't feel right about being praised for his work because he was just getting by. What he was really passionate about was art, and he eventually left his job and opened an art supply store and focused on his artwork.
I could really relate to that story, especially the doing enough to get by part. I dislike my current job because I'm bored, and nothing I say to my boss changes that. He gives me more work, but nothing that really engages me. Instead I get things he doesn't want to do and no one else wants. So I spend a lot of time just getting by. It doesn't feel right. In fact I feel pretty guilty about spending days doing three hours of work over the course of a day because that's all I have to do. I'd really like to go back to school to get a master's in psychology so I could do the counseling I wanted to do when I was younger. I can't support myself on my writing yet, but maybe someday. That's what would feel right. That's what I'm passionate about doing. I like helping other people and writing.
I'm not quite sure where I was going with that, other than I think what we're looking for is validation, not so much as approval. We want our friends and family to tell us, You are a good mother. You are good at your job. Sorry that I got a bit sidetracked there.
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Dear Tayana,
You sound the best that I have ever heard you in the above post. Your mind is clearing as you have NC.
Love Ami
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Thanks Ami! I feel pretty good today. If I start feeling this good all the time I might not need to go to the doctor.
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YEAAAAAAH.
I am really happy for you.It is about slow steady progress, which you are doing Love Ami
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Tay,
You do sound very focused. I have a question for you - how long has it been since you started to realize that your M was an N and started working on this and learning about it?
Your post shows great insight!!!!!
Love, Beth
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This post came at such a poignant moment, as I was just realizing that every thing the ex N said, I tried to make it something else to affirm his feelings for me. HE ISN'T CAPABLE OF THOSE FEELINGS. He knows how to twist those words and make it seem to be what you want, but he can't feel them. This is a new revelation to me, so I have to keep reminding myself over and over, he is not capable of the normal emotions most of us have.
Thanks again for pointing out the obvious, that most others can see.
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Dear Alone,
What I think that you are saying is that there are two types of knowings. There is knowing with your heart and with your head.
You know with your head about N. However, the HARD part is seeing and knowing with your heart. It is a process and takes time and pain to crack the hard shell of denial. It really hurts.I am sorry, Alone. Love Ami
((((((((((((((((((((((((Alone))))))))))))))))0000000
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I first realized that my family wasn't normal when I was in college, and my friends' parents treated them very differently than mine. My mother basically stalked me in college, especially once I had a car and had some autonomy. I didn't really call her behavior abuse then though, although some of my friends thought it was bizarre, and my one roommate told her off once. She called me back and yelled at me for my roommate's actions. I can't remember what was going on with my roommate, but she was in the middle of some sort of crisis, and was talking to family and friends, and my mother demanded to talk to me about nothing. She was very rude to my roommate.
I still didn't really call it abuse, even though the counselor I started seeing my final year of school did. I'd started seeing him for depression. I was considering suicide. I'd stopped eating. My parents weren't helping me, and wouldn't listen to me. I felt like I'd lost connection with my friends. Seeing the counselor was the first time, I said, I can't do anything right. He was the first person who ever said that my parents' expectations were unreasonable. That's when I started thinking something wasn't quite right.
I didn't really know about NPD, and I'm not really sure what I was searching for that I found out about it until a few years later. I'd taken M on vacation with my friend in Ohio. My mother went into a rage over the whole thing. I wanted to get away from her then, and I was trying to find a place, even though I was deep in debt, I could have just squeaked by as long as I lived close to work. By that time, I had doen some reading about abuse, and my friend in Ohio had just gotten out of an abusive relationship, so reading the things she was sending me, I started putting the pieces together and realized that my mother was abusive. She wasn't really abusive to M when he was small, except for some unreasonable expectations for his age, but she was very abusive to me.
I found out about NPD and Borderline Personality Disorder about the time I tried to get a home loan and was denied. I'm not quite sure if my mom is a full blown N or if she has BPD and some N traits. I guess that was about three years ago, about the time I found this site. I started reading, and I finally found something that sounded like my family. I'd never considered the things that my mom did or said to me abuse because I hadn't been physically or sexually abused. The more I read about NPD and BPD the more it sounded like my mom, and the more I started planning to get away. She started to get more and more abusive to my son, and that was the final straw. The day he told me she pulled his hair and screamed at him when he didn't do his work right, that was the day I was determined to get him away from even if I ended up on food stamps and welfare.
When I first got pregnant, I turned down all of the free things the state could have given me. I should have gone ahead and used the WIC program. They would have helped me get out on my own, find a better job, given me parenting classes, etc, but my mom talked me out of that. She told me I didn't need that, even though when M was first born, I barely made enough money to pay for my bills, let alone childcare. I really let my mom intrude too much when M was a baby, but I didn't know what to do with a baby. I'd never been around children. I didn't think I liked kids, and I'd never wanted children. I hated the way my mom talked to M as he got older. She treated him just as bad as I'd been treated, except I don't really remember being 8,9, 10, etc. I don't really remember much until I was a teenager. So I don't know if my mom did the same things or if she really is worse with M.
So, I've read about NPD off and on for about the last three or four years. For a little while, there was a sort of denial period where I didn't think this could possibly be right, but eventually I had to accept that my mom just really didn't care. She'd complain because I took M to lunch and she wasn't invited, so I'd invite her and she'd say, "Well I don't know what your dad wants to do." I tried to include her in things. I made an enormous mistake when I tried to homeschool M. My mom took over, inserted herself in my role as parent and started working her tricks on M. I think that's when I started to see how little she really cared and how much she only loved as long as I did what she liked. She'd make my lunch, and she wouldn't ask what I wanted, just fix me something. I'd inevitably go buy lunch someplace because I couldn't stomach what she made, or I'd go to lunch with a friend. She would be incensed if she found out because I was wasting her money. It was things like that that really drove home what was going on. When I was injured and homebound, I really suffered because I couldn't do anything to help myself. I was immobile, and she had to take care of me. I hated that, and her abuse actually got worse. So did my depression, to the point where I was thinking the world would be much better off without me. I finally got out of that way of thinking, but the depression didn't really get better. I mistakenly thought that leaving my extremely stressful job would help, but leaving my even more stressful home life is what has actually helped.
I used to say I couldn't handle the situation at home/work/ and with Michael in school if there was a crisis in all three. At least one had to be stable. If all three were in turmoil, I think I would have had an emotional breakdown. Usually I could get one relatively stable, but the other two would be causing great stress. Now, I almost have two stable, for the first time in my life.
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Alone,
I had a long phase where I could not seem to erase the maternal feelings that came along with the package idea of Mother. I assigned her feelings that were never there. I see now that my dad also assigns her feelings, and I think that may be what I copied. He tries to believe she has feelings, but in his heart, I think he knows something is wrong with her... It took me many moths to see her without any shred of emotion toward me.
Love, Beth
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Dear Tayana,
I think that you are coming out of denial about 'abuse". All these "small "instances of coming out of denial--little by little --is the way that we get free.
I can see that you are really facing the truths of your life as your head clears from NC.
You are really making great progress. It may not feel like it all the time---but I can see it Love Ami
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Beth,
I haven't had a chance to read through all of the posts here. Just wanted to say that there is so much wisdom in what you posted - I couldn't agree more!
For me, it wasn't until I completely let go of hope that she could be the person I believed she could be that I was able to let go of so many negative emotions.
In my case, I wasn't able to fully understand this until I went NC. While I was in the midst of the madness, I couldn't see the madness for what it truly was. I suspected it but any brief time spent with my family, and I would get sucked right back into that black hole before I realized it happened :roll: (if that makes any sense - :D).
Peace
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Oh Goodness!!!
This concept is RIGHT ON! I let myself feel secure in thinking that the Bagworm was gone and would leave me alone. WRONG! Never mind like/love/respect- Ns won't stop their destructive ways! I wish that they could be quarantined, as their disease devastates the general population when it is introduced into the environment!!! If Bagworm ever acts even remotely normally in relation to me, I'll know another attack is coming (unless I can do a little pre-emptive strike!)
Love (for You) and Dread (for Bagworm),
Changing
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Such a true post gratitude and I know exactly what you mean about assigning feelings - I did it for years.
Last time I talked to my dad I clearly heard him say ambiguous things that could be taken either way, if I leaped to this or that conclusion about them. It was kind of fascinating in a disillusioning way. There is really no expectation that is low enough that he could not limbo underneath it.
fp - it makes total sense to me. I was never able to detach while in the middle of the hurly burly. Distance is what I needed and lots and lots of it.
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Iphi,
Thanks for confirming that... I think my M copied other Ms and somehow I was able to read love in that. I had a huge shock and a desperation, almost, when I realized she had no care at all for me - and in fact did what she could to make my life harder.
Changing,
I love that you call him bagworm - it is so appropriate. I am sorry you had to go through this with someone you believe you loved.
Peace,
It took me a while to lose that hope - I spent over thirty years trying to find out what was wrong with me - only to find out I wasn't the problem!!!
Ami,
You are always so kind and everyone's cheerleader here!!! It is so noce of you to listen and reply.
Tayana,
I think you are holding on to the frayed ends of the rope with your mother. It is so strange to believe that the person that gave life to you could want to harm you. I wish you strength to face her and realize all that she is and is capable of doing. Where is your dad in the picture?
((((((((((all))))))))
Love, Beth
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I spent over thirty years trying to find out what was wrong with me - only to find out I wasn't the problem!!!
Can I just say to you --- YES OH MY GOD I KNOW AMEN TO THAT! Ahem. But they kept telling us that it was us, so much about us, everything about us, this and that about us - us us us what a problem we are. I tried to solve the problem that was me for so freaking many years! At least trying to do that is what finally leads to the realization that we've been played for suckers, eh?
It sounds like tay's dad has been assimilated to the Borg collective.
(http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4156/infirmary/xeno/borg/theborg.gif)
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Beth, Iphi, my dad is pretty much a silent bystander. He doesn't say much, doesn't intervene, doesn't really seem to care.
My brother even said that he didn't think my dad really cared whether or not I called, visited or talked to them. He didn't seem to care whether he saw my son or not. My dad had a great opportunity to have a good relationship with M, and he never did anything with him. He talked about a lot of things, but just like everything, it's all talk. My parents always talked about doing things, but when it came time to do them, they never did.
I've always thought, at least since I had M, that my dad was very disappointed in me. That's when he stopped doing special things with me. We didn't really talk anymore, and so I just thought I'd been written out of his life. I don't expect much from him, and for a long time, until the last couple of years, he'd found a new pal in the bottom of a can. I remember being so scared because my parents fought all the time over my dad's drinking when M was a baby that I had a bag packed, just in case things got bad. I'm not sure if I was afraid of my mom losing it, or my dad losing it.
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I'm so sorry tay. It's just heartbreakingly disappointing about your dad. :( Even if I make a borg joke, please don't think I don't feel it too - it's just my way of getting a little distance (the distance between crying and laughing) by throwing a different spin.
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It's okay, Iphi. I told my T Monday that I'm really angry with my dad for never intervening. I understood what you were saying and had a little chuckle about the Borg joke. It's actually very true.
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CB,
processing....processing....processsing......
Genius! Can't wait for the next post.
Poppy
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"I realise I try and handle the wounds by getting the other to quite wounding me"
Sing it from the roof tops CB. This is the realisation I have come to MY WOUNDS ARE MY WOUNDS and what I do with them is my responsibility. Another part of what is being played out inmo is that because of the desperate need(talking about myself) to be connected with another, I have no boundary which says enough is enough, this is not a healthy place for me. Knowing when to go and when to stay seems like the place where I will I will make my major leap. Running away at the first hint of difficulty because I am too scared to look at my own wounds/staying until it becomes abusive because I am afraid of being on my own. These are the poles which I run to. The middle ground, the boundaries this is what I yearn for.
Great topic, timely for me.
Axa
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Gratitude:
You mentioned that you have accepted that your NM will never love or respect you and that you can now focus on your relationship with your dad and his relationship with your kids. I'm in a very similar situation but the difference is my dad is extremely co-dependent. It is impossible to have a relationship with just him because his whole life is directly tied to my Nmom's.
I'm wondering how does it work in your situation? Is your dad co-dependent? Can you do things with him alone without your Nmom? Is he able to acknowledge how badly your Nmom has treated you? Also, do you have siblings you can be close to and how do they deal with the Nparent situation?
It just seems to me that when you have had the bad luck to have one N parent, you don't just lose one, you lose both, because they come as a package--narcissist and co-dependent. Maybe it's just my own experience. But if, as you said, it's necessary to accept that your Nparent will never love you, it seems you must also accept that the co-dependent parent will never love you enough to respect you and value you and stand up for you. Essentially that means your whole family is wiped out. Add to that siblings who distance themselves from you and the whole parents thing, it is a very, very lonely existence.
So I was just wondering how it is with your dad and if you can salvage any loving parent-child relationship with him?
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CB -
I agree with so much of what you have written here. You said the following which jumped right out of the screen at me:
What I've been doing is taking a time out. Over and over. Time out. Time out. Time out. Don't speak. Don't react. What is really going on here. Am I being treated badly or is this just the every day logistics of life that get in the way of a smooth day?
YES! I have been doing this as well. For me, every troubling situation was interpreted as life or death (I think this stems from being so abused as a child). I did this at an unconscious level. It was an immediate fight/flight reaction. Over the past several months I have been doing the same thing - taking a time out and really thinking about the situation and my reaction. After doing this, it was a real eye-opener. I started to realize that 99.9% of situations are not life or death, they are the gray area in between. The best part, as my brain is starting to re-set off of the immediate fight/flight mode - the intensity of the initial emotional reaction is lessening!!!
This has been a really, really great tool for me.
Love to you,
Peace
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CB
The all or nothing, very familiar to me. Where is THAT longed for middle ground. In some ways I think it is like learning a new language where I have to check have i got enough vocab. to engage in the dialogue. Where is it written that i have to respond, have to justify, explain. It stricks me about how verbal I am as if somehow saying words in itself has some sort of power. I am standing back more also, observing, noting not so much how the other is but how I am. This is big practise for me. My focus has always been on the other. I think I have been walking around for years like a headless chicken - not a pretty sight! As time went on with XN I began to stay back and observe but in truth I did not know what to do with the information/observations. Like I would note them and carry on as if nothing had happened or else use them as fuel fo my own anger. Which I guess in the end propelled me to get out, but I took so much abuse before I found the courage to do that.
I guess it comes round to the same issues for me over and over again: shame and the lack of boundaries. Having spent my life in a place of co-dep I have been covering the shame with a falseness of reasonableness. I so need to free myself from that place but want to avoid, avoid, avoid. I wonder is that is what is beneath all co-dep behaviour. What about incongruence, that seems to be a theme for me also.
So much learning so little time.......... good luck with your wedding.
axa
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Whew!! I had to go back and reread some of these..................I thought CB was getting married - but now I realize you are catering a wedding...
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Sun,
Let's start a new topic about the dad situation. I don't have time at this second... but I REALLY want to explore it.
Love, Beth
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Hi CB,
If I'm not completely healed, the least I can do is keep from oozing all over some poor unsuspecting friend
Is it possible that this is one of the most potent of the healing balms?
You make many powerful points that I need to ponder, CB. Good critical thinking...
Beth, great thread. N's only know how to use :(
tt