Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on October 21, 2007, 12:37:27 PM
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Long title... and it also makes the topic a bit specific. We have touched on this before... I hope it will help people here (and me as well!!). Sun brought up the topic and it is one that puzzles me constantly and one I have not truly tried to pin down...
When one parent is an N, it seems that most of the time, the other parent is not - and, I think, either hides from the fact that the partner is an N, or has no healthy relationship to pattern his after, and thus accepts the relationship as normal. I believe that the non-N parent has a range of behaviors regarding children. I would be interested to see how people respond about their non-N parent's treatment of them...
In my case, my dad loves us (his children). He also loves my children (his grandchildren). However, he is lazy when it comes to a relationship with us. I don't know why - if it is just his nature, a father's nature, or because there were no healthy relationships to copy in his life. He has written me letters, very kind ones, very rarely. He also stepped in if my mother ever got out of hand. She never hit me, her abuse was and is verbal/emotional. If she crosses a certain line even now, he steps in and tells her to back off. Still, he believes, somehow, that she is a decent mother. I think he wants to believe that, or I don't know how he could have any respect for her. I feel that he deals with her because he believes marriage is a for-life committment. He made a choice and stands by it. His parents had a bizarre and hate-filled relationship, and he believes he is better off. Of course, as you all know here, my mother has sex-chats online with another man (how long can I hold this secret?), whines until my father buys her things and sabotages any chance he has of getting healthy. She loves to tell that he "tricked" her into marrying him because she thought he was rich. She also likes to tell people that other women love him and would take him in a minute (in spite of the fact he is heavy - she always has to add that to undermine him, of course) to prove that she has a desirable man.
Sooooo.... I despise the woman when I am not feeling totally devoid of emotion towards her. But to talk to my dad, sometimes I have to talk to her. I tried emailing them separately for a while, hoping it would open some communication line with him, but it didn't seem to. Even though she doesn't care much about me or the kids, if Dad tries to communicate with us in any way (phone, email, myspace, etc), she has to jump in and do it too. Nowadays, she hardly pretends she wants to talk to me, so she will tell me when dad will be home and we can call then. He talks football with my son, school and soccer with my daughter. I want that for them. My dad is a special and kind person. I feel upset sometimes that his eyes aren't open, but, at this point, I am afraid if he saw the truth it would only crush him.
I really want to know about others' relationships with their parents here and also how you have managed a relationship with the non-N parent. Again, I know we have touched on this, but I would like to really explore the topic.
(((((((((((((((((((((Thanks, all)))))))))))))))
Love, Beth
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Dear Beth,
I could be wrong,but I notice a change in you( a good one).You seem to be FEELING more of your feelings toward your M --rather than just having them in your head. Am I right? Have you noticed any difference? Did s/thing happen to change you at all?
I can relate to your topic. My F was always a "potted plant" when anything happened in our house( Mother raging, any thing). He would never step in. He was as much help as another kid.
However, I told you about what happened with him. He had been going to Al Anon for 13 years. He decided that he wanted to make peace with me(I was not talking to either of them b/c they were both lying ). To an N couple, their WHOLE life is a lie.
He came down to see me. I told him 'Go home if you are going to keep lying." He stayed and we got honest .
He gets it about N's. He tried to "help' her ,but she got mad at him.
I call and only talk to him. He encourages me as I grow. He is really a "cheerleader" for me. He helped me get through the 6 weeks of dizziness as I came out of denial.
It is really,really sad to have an N mother. The N mother is a walking advertisement for "evil". They are a curse on two legs.
It is the worst N you can have(IMO). I think that any other N is not as bad as having an N mother.
I think that my situation with my F is very rare.
God "told" my F to come and see me. My F is "spiritual" ( the Al Anon Higher power),but my F felt a push from God to come and see me.
My F said that he felt like he had to . So, I guess that I had a Divine intervention.
Beth,I know that an N mother is the gift that keeps on giving( pain, that is) SIGH. Love Ami
((((((((((((((((((Beth))))))))))))))))))))))))0
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Hi Gratitude:
You beat me to it! But thanks sooooo much for starting this thread. It is something I really struggle with. It sounds like you have a quasi-relationship at least with your dad although I'm sure your Nmom makes even that difficult.
I also have an Nmom (and Nsister) and a dad who is extremely, extremely co-dependent. As I have learned about the NPD, I have also come to realize what part he has played in our family dysfunction and just how co-dependent he is. My dad, although he will claim to high heaven that he loves all his children, really has no adult kind of a relationship with any of his children. He is united with my Nmom in her abuse (emotional and psychological) when it comes to my brother and I. Because my Nmom essentially only has interest in and interaction with my Nsister, my dad too follows along. He is like a puppy dog that way. His only interest in life is to make sure my mom is happy and gets whatever she wants.
Once, and only once, my brother and I convinced my dad to come to a therapy appointment with me. Previous to that I had written him a letter and asked him (in a very non-confrontational manner) to explain his decisions to me and to tell me when he first noticed my depression, etc. He refused to even acknowledge the letter. In therapy, he basically told the doctor he "doesn't beleive in that (therapy) sort of thing." He reiterated to her that he loves all of his children "equally" but when the doctor questioned why he spends no time with two of his three children, he just said, "he has no choice."
Maybe it's laziness. Maybe it's the fact that my dad grew up in hard circumstances himself with no father (his died when he was 2) and a very, very "strong" and controlling mother. Shoot, maybe he married a version of his mother. But in either case, he does nothing to foster a one-on-one relationship with any of his children. No letters. No phone calls. No dad/daughter or dad/son outings or lunches (unless we initiate it). No discussion of our lives, interests or problems. Repeatedly when my mom has shown her overpowerng emotional abuse towards me, he never will stand up for me. I asked him that very question in the letter I wrote him but he never acknowledged it. He claims that no one ever gives him credit for all the "good" things he does. Like my mother, these "things" fall into the category of basics---such as providing food, clothing and shelter or doing things like making sure the cars are maintained. All very good things to be sure. But to me that's not a parent.
My dad is not good at coping with serious problems at all. He literally will not have a conversation with you about anything important, let alone about my Nmom and Nsister. He just fosters the idea that my Nmom is "perfect" and that no matter what she wants, everyone should do it. His belief that everything in our family would be fine if only my brother and I went along with whatever my Nmom and Nsister want. He quite literally waits by the door for my mom to come home when she's out. If they are discussing something and my mom disagrees with him, he will immediately change his tune and side with her. He won't make any decision (and I do mean any) without consulting my mom first. In the past, I have repeatedly asked my dad to join me on outings or trips but he refuses.
My parents have one grandchild whom they claim to love with all their heart. Yet, because of my mom, they rarely, rarely see her or talk to her (only if my brother initiates an invitation). They live five minutes away from their granddaughter but never call her, never visit her, never invite her for a sleepover, never offer to take her anywhere. My dad adores children, but small children. Once they reach that age of 6 or so where they begin to exert their independence and no longer want to just sit and cuddle with "grandpa", then he has no use for them.
Soo, I ask you how do you deal with this kind of parent? On the one hand, I try to understand that he comes from a difficult childhood with no father figure. On the other hand, I can't understand his behavior since it is just human nature or common sense (at least to me) that a father would want a relationship with his children, adult or otherwise. As I've mentioned in other posts, because of my evil Nsister and her abusive behaviors, my Nmom opted to side with her. Since then, my parents only spend their time with her and have all but ignored my brother and I. I know deep down that my dad believes this to be wrong. But he will not do anything about it.
I complained once to a therapist about this and she told me, "How can you expect your dad to stand up for you when he won't stand up for himself?" I guess I know that to be true. But it so saddens me. The therapist asked me how I felt when I see my dad behaving in this way. I told her, it just makes me feel sad, amazed, hurt, angry and embarrassed for him. He is literally like a trained puppy dog whose only purpose in life is to provide my mom with what she needs. The really sad thing (although not surprising) is that my mom has always treated my dad poorly. She has never, never shown him any affection. She criticizes him and demeans him every chance she gets. She has no respect for him whatsoever. He is getting on in years and is experiencing the typical pains and what not. Yet, she never offers any support or help. She never goes with him to the doctor. She is typical N but it is really painful.
So, I guess my point in this is that not only do you lose the Nparent, but you lose the non-N parent as well. In my opinion, in order to stay in a marriage or relationsihp long term with an N person, the other person has to be very co-dependent or lacking in self esteem. Otherwise, it would be like oil and water. They just couldn't co-exist. The reason the N can get away with all her evil behaviors is because there is a co-dependent (like my dad) there to enable her.
In other posts there, I've read how the N parent sometimes will do a 180 when the child refuses to go along with it or stands up to her. That works as long as there is no one else there to enable her. However, in my house, that will never be the case. I have a very co-dependent dad and an N sister who will always be there to provide my Nmom with all the narcissistic supply she craves. It seems like it's truly a no-win situation.
It is really painful when I realize that I don't have anyone I can talk over serious situations with, to get advice, or to take an interest in me. I often wish I was the priority for at least one of my parents. But that's not the case. When I stand up to my Nmom's ways, I know I will be totally alone in it. My dad will continue to stand by her side and support her. You can't even have an adult conversation with him about it. He won't discuss it.
Anyway, that' s my story. I really don't know what you are supposed to do in a situation like this. Sometimes I feel real anger at my dad because I believe that the co-dependent at least knows what he's doing. The co-dependent, in my opinion, knows what he is doing is wrong and that others are being hurt by it, but he just won't stop. Fear and his codependency guides his every move.
What saddens me is that it has become obvious that my dad has no need whatsoever for a close relationship with his children. I really don't understand that. Isn't that human nature to want to be close to your kids? Even if you had a lousy childhood yourself, wouldn't you be able to see what makes a good parent and a bad one?
I'd sure love to hear how others deal with their non-N parent and what kind of relationshp they have.
Thanks again Gratitude. This is a very important thread for me.
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Dear Sun,
Your post brought a few thoughts to my mind. One is the obvious which is that your situation with both of your parents is "hopeless". I have so been where you are ( and I still am ,in many ways). Read about how my N mother totally rejected me when I stood up and told the truth. I would not relent and take on a distorted reality for her. She won't even talk to me on the phone.. I am "banished' b/c I did the unthinkable-- told the truth and left NO wiggle room for her lies.So, It is hopeless for me ,too.
I have s/thing interesting to add, though.It hit me as I was thinking how to respond to your post. You,obviously, are in a deep despair. You don't understand HOW parents could just 'cut out" their own child.This is the surprising "twist" that I wanted to share with you.
My F came back to me. You know ,it is not that "great". I thought that it would be so good and fufilling to have a relationship with my F.It is O.K. It is good,in a way. I know that he "cares' more than a neighbor would,I guess. However,it is like wanting a piece of "jewelry, a car, a house. clothes, marriage, kids or something for SO long and when you get it,it is not that good.
This surprises me.
My S(older) has his first g/f. Before he "got " her,his big thing was that he wanted a g/f to share life with. He had all these great things that he wanted to do with her-- go to the beach, amusement parks, dinner, movies etc.
He told me that it was so less "wonderful" than he thought. My S and I have a "joke' about everything being like 'driving". You want to get your license so badly .Then ,when you get it ,it is not as wonderful as you though it would be.
So, I am just saying this b/c I always wanted a loving .close relationship with a M. I idealized it so much. I held it up in the same way that I wanted a close relationship with a F and it simply does not fill the need that I thought it would. It is very just 'O.K."
It reminds me of wanting a piece of chocolate and just dreaming and craving it. Then ,it turns out to be "cooking chocolate( the bitter kind with no sugar------ explained for the men around)
Anyway, Sun, I just wanted to share some thoughts that I thought might help.Compost what does not fit. Love Ami
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Dear Beth,
My heart goers out to you as well as the other daughters here of N-mothers, who have lost their relationship with their father, or have even been abused by him via his collaboration with her.
I seem to swing between detached understanding of my father's behavior, and disillusionment with him. I mean he's an adult, and has made this choice to be a co-abuser, as well as an abuse victim. And yet I know he lacks the courage and self-honesty to dig himself out of this hole, and he will never change. He'll go to his grave unloved and separated from her (she has left him now that he's showing some signs of needing care in his elderly years). He'll give all his money to her when he dies, knowing full well she'll use it to play `inheritance games' with her children until the day she passes away.
It would be nice if things were different, but my main concern is avoiding the problems which lay ahead due his gutless approach to life. Lol, I guess I am not in a sympathetic mood at the moment,
Thankyou so much for this topic, Beth!
X Bella
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Beth,
I have gradually edged into a kind of distant relationship with my dad, after starting NC with my NMum 13 years ago. At first, he was 'told' to keep away from me (she told all my relatives to do that), but he sneaked behind her back to keep in touch. But it's always been a bit stilted (always was, so that's nothing new). Like others have said, my father, too, has always shown no sign of independent thought, and he can be quite spineless, but because I love him and I can see that living with her for 37 years has damaged him permanently, all I can do now is see the best I can in him while he's still here - he's 79 now.
My expectations aren't too high, but I'd rather see him when I can, than not. But it's hard when I think how it might have been.
Janet
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Bella,
I am of the same opinion much of the time. I also swing one way and then the other. He has made the choice to be a bitter person and to feel others got luckier in life. He could have made many changes and didn't. Ami, this is why it was so hard for me to answer your thread about being alone in the world. I made a choice to go to AA. I had not gotten in any trouble, but my life was out of control - for me. For so long, I wanted someone to come and save me, and there came a point when I realized I ALONE could solve my problem. So... Bella, yes, I also think often that my dad should make a decision to do what is good for him and decide to break free of her abuse, or at least confront it. I would say he will stick out his neck for me, but does not protect himself from her in many cases. After growing up with the mother he had, he no doubt believes my mother is better than his was... But she is just sneakier. Maybe I am too charitable, but I believe she fools him to an extent. She pretends to be loving towards me and the kids when he is around/on the phone. I wish I could be more upset with him sometimes, Bella, and sometimes I am... (talk about a confusing sentence).
Ami, my dad is like yours in that he is an alcoholic. He has never gotten help and he is highly functioning. He is unlike your dad in that he is thrilled to be with the kids. He loves his grandchildren, and, in fact, related really well to all children. He is a lot like a child in that he has hobbies and likes to sort his things. He becomes very engrossed in activities. I wonder if it is a way to hide (as it must have been in childhood). He really doesn't have anything to apologize to me about - he did love me and protect me. He is passive-aggressive at times, mainly because he doesn't know how to behave towards loved ones... I guess I am making excuses for him. I have no idea what he would think if I suggested Mom is an N. He might even know it. He is very smart. I wish I knew, but I just don't know how to bring it up or whether to...
Sun,
It is funny that we are so alike in this and I agree wholly that there cannot be two N parents - or that it is unlikely, as one must support the other... I believe my mother has eroded what little self esteem my father could have built. He is proud of his work and is very good at it. Of course, she harps that he doesn't make enough money... they both believe money is the answer to everything... And I wonder how I developed other values????? My dad now believes that to make someone like him, you must buy them something. That is how it seems. He goes all out with gifts. I tell him they are great, but I just plain like being with him. Sun, I wish I knew the answer... what to do... and do they know. I think we can all hash it out, but I just don't know if there is an answer. I just remembered, I read an article on this recently. If I can find it (this is a new computer - I poured coffee - oops- on the other one on Friday) I will post it here. Let me go search for it. I thought it was very valid and important to what we are searching for here.
Love, Beth
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http://www.alanrappoport.com/Co-Narcissism%20Article.pdf
one link on co-narcissicm
I'll look for more tomorrow - need my sleep! Hi Janet, will respond soon! Thanks so much for the input!!!
Love, Beth
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Hi All,
I've got some related questions:
Do you think that your dad married a woman who was like his mother (your paternal grandmother)?
Was your paternal grandmother an N? mine was, big time.
Did you ever wonder why your dad married your NM? I sure did, but, then again, it makes sense because his mother was a BIG N.
I think my NM was sweet & loving while my parents dated and never showed her true self (Yelling, critical).
During arguments between my parents, my dad would say "what happened to the sweet girl I married?"
My NM basically implied to me that I should act all nice & sweet in order to get a guy to marry me and then after the marriage, I can be "the real me". I always rejected this idea.
What I get from many of the posts here is that we are adults now and we are seeing our dads with adult eyes, not thru the eyes of the child we were. So, maybe, we have the hopes & expectations of the child that we were, but we have the rational, critical thinking of an adult and these 2 things are very different, so we feel disillusioned.
love,
sally
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It is just always so amazing to me to see the similarities between everyone's stories here. That means there must be something to all this NPD stuff.
Gratitude, thank you for your comments. Yes, I believe we share a lot of similarities with our respective family situations. Like your parents, mine also believe money is the answer to everything. They have always been very good at gift giving at Christmas or birthdays, although my mother will always buy gifts that "she" likes so they more likely suit her tastes than those of the recipients. So, my sister-in-law who abhors turtleneck sweaters and never wears them can count on getting one for Christmas because my mom loves them. My Nsister has adopted the same mindset. Money means everything to them. My Nsister tried to buy me back into her life a few years ago with expensive and ridiculous gifts. My Nmom couldn't understand how my brother and his wife could possibly choose another person as the godmother of their child since my Nsister would have set up a college fund for my niece. And on and on and on. Unlike some of the others here, my dad always had bad luck with work. He worked very hard and tried his very best, but due to circumstances out of his control, he never had any good luck. My mom never let him forget it. Naturally, my mom, as it seems most Ns do, has had nothing but good luck with that sort of thing.
Thanks for the link Gratitude!
Sally:
In my case, I think my dad did marry a version of his very strong, very controlling mother. I think my dad was the "good" son and was always there for my grandmother but she was pretty tough. I have no idea whether she was N or not, but I do know she was very, very demanding and harsh. She raised 5 children on her own and never had much. They were poor as kids and my dad forever tells me those stories of how he didn't have much, etc. It always breaks my heart. I wish there was something I could do to change that experience for him but of course there isn't. I think though having been married to an N (my mom) for a very long time, he has adopted a strong sense of entitlement. While he caters to my mom's every whim and wish, he behaves like a helpless child sometimes and expects me to cater to him, even when he is able to do for himself. He has adopted a rather bitter, "the world has conspired against me" attitude which makes it hard to deal with at times.
Also, I will say that unequivocally, my dad has always loved and adored my mom. It's just he never got anything in return from her. I do think when they first met and married, my mom played the sweet and loving person. Perhaps it was because at that time my grandmother (whom I believed was the Nparent for my mom) was still alive.
And no, my dad would never, never ever be able to "hear" that something is wrong with my Nmom. She is absolutely perfect in his eyes and wouldn't allow anyone to talk negatively about her. What really saddens me is that I know deep down my dad is a really sweet, good person. He's just been so damaged by a woman like my Nmom. I can't help thinking "What if he had married someone else? What if he had married a woman who would have been affectionate and caring and supportive and encouraging instead of one who always diminishes his worth?" It really saddens me because I know he could have had such a different life. My dad has a curiosity about life and had a few hobbies like sports and music and travel. But my Nmom has no hobbies or interests. She certainly has no interest in sharing interests of those around her.
So mostly it saddens me greatly to see in my dad the results of being married to my Nmom. He really and genuinely loves her and has never shown him a shred of love or respect. But I know I have to accept that I'll never have a real adult relationship with my dad either. His whole life is my Nmom and his kids have only a place in it as translated by my mom.
I have to say I'm feeling really, really sad about all this tonight. It is just so hopeless and so sad and so lonely to have no one.
But it is good to hear that others here can identify. Thanks for letting me vent and for sharing.
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Sally,
I'm not sure if my Dad's mother was an N - she was a very strong woman, but not an N, really. My NMum's mother very definitely was - and so is my NMum's sister (my aunt), and at least one of my NMum's cousins, and possibly my NMum's grandmother on her mother's side. All nasty, nasty people.
I think my Dad was 'tricked' by a false front that my NMum could put on when it suited her (she tried it several times when she had affairs later, very successfully). My Dad was a great believer in marriage, and didn't want to get divorced, so he stayed married to her for 37 years, tilll he retired and she realised he'd be at home all day 'in the way'. So she told him to get a divorce and live somewhere else. Oh, and he was told to still leave her all his money in his Will, so he has.
One of my NMum's famous one-liners, that me and my husband now find funny, is that she often said to me while I was engaged 'when he finds out what you're really like, he'll leave you'.
16 years, and he still hasn't managed to catch me with my mask off! What an achievement!
I think, though, that this kind of comment from her does say an awful lot about how SHE thought she should present herself to people, rather than me - she always has a mask on, and I think the 'real her' just isn't there.
Sunblue,
My Dad always seemed so 'empty' emotionally, that I thought he was like an android. But once he got divorced, he met a lady 15 years younger than him, and to see them now - they behave like a couple of teenagers! All giggly and cute. So, even if you can't see it in your father, I bet he has the capacity for caring. But the N's certainly try to squash it out of people. My Dad has hobbies that absorb him, too. And my NMum has none. Always thought they were for people who had 'nothing better to do', like cleaning. HUH??
It is very sad, though, to think through all this stuff.
Janet
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Janet,
You are so adorable. Ami
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My Dad, gone 12 years now...was hopeless, too.
I don't blame him for his CoD though. He was born in 1911. They never heard of Oprah, much less psychobabble. And, his serious practice of Christianity made his bride just what she wanted to be, his Queen.
He really loved her. To tackle her weird blunted self-absorption honestly would have cost him his universe. So I never asked it of him.
That said, she was not overtly abusive, never raged, only meddled and manipulated...so I've been luckier than most daughters of Nmothers.
My first shrink told me to have lunches with them SEPARATELY. My sweet Dad was bewildered. He thought I was going to tell him I'd dropped out of school or was preggers or something drastic. I looked at him over the wonton and said No, I just wanted some time in your company. He smiled and relaxed. Ever after, I think he appreciated it.
But Mom acted as though the ceiling was about to fall in when he and I left. Out of her orbit, out of her control. It was a brilliant suggestion on my T's part. I also began a hugging campaign. I hugged each of them whether they were interested or not. For a long time, they stood there like planks. Eventually my Dad relaxed and began to be affectionate again. Mom never managed it. She still is stiff and unable to show physical affection. But I don't hurt about it any more.
A lot of it was their "diagnoses"...a lot of it was their generation, their families, the depression, their religion, their codes of behavior. It would've been too much for my Dad to tackle it all.
I just figure it was my generation's job, with the new info psychology gave me, to take it to where I've taken it. And my own child will have her own tools, new ones, to help her deal with her legacy.
Off to work, love
Hops
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I wanted to reply to this thread last night, but I was too tired, and I really wanted to think about how to reply. I think my family is very similar to Sun's.
Sun, reading your story, I just wanted to say that it really hits home, and I really want to wish you the best. ((((((hugs))))))
I used to think that my dad was all right, you know, I always felt closer to him than I did with my mom. I always had to hide things from my mom, but I could relax a little around my dad and be honest. I thought of him as a sort of protector from my mom's insanity, even though, looking back he didn't really intervene all that much.
I remember once when I was 12 or 13, that my mom wanted me to redo my closet and organize the clothes for season, so I did. I organized all the shirts together, all the pants together, etc. This is still the way I like my closet organized. She came in to inspect it, and she went off. I don't remember what she said. I remember she started pull the clothes out and put them where she wanted, while she was screaming at me. I remember at some point my dad came in. I guess I must have been trying to justify my strategy or something because my mom turned around and slapped my face, then stormed off. I just remember my dad holding me when I was crying and saying, "She didn't mean it."
My dad's sage advice regarding my mom's emotional/verbal abuse has always been, "Just take it with a grain of salt." I have never been able to do that.
I think the she didn't mean it like is very telling of my dad's relationship with my mom. He was always justifying what she said or did. She's under a lot of stress. She's just upset. He would justify it, making him sort of a co-abuser. When I told him that my mom had run up bills in my name, he was angry, but he didn't do anything. He didn't offer to help. I was left to muddle through on my own. He did give me some money, and offer to pay off the balance if my court situation doesn't go the way it should. That's the first time he's ever offered that much help.
He talked a great deal about things he wanted to do with my son, but he's never done them, or he's tried, but he doesn't have the patience to deal with M. And a lot of the things he wanted to do, my mom would pitch a fit over. M eats up attention from his Grandpa, but lately Grandpa doesn't have much of a relationship with him at all. I haven't had much of a relationship with my dad since I got pregnant.
My mom was responsible for my parents losing the one house they ever owned, and my dad has never forgiven her. He started drinking after that, really before, but even worse after that. I actually liked him better drunk, at least he had a little life. But now he's so morose and withdrawn that having a conversation is impossible. He just sits and wallows in his self-pity, and when my mom starts in on him, I can see the anger, but he never expresses it just walks out and slams the door to puddle in the garage or the yard.
I do love my dad, and I would love to have a relationship with him. I don't know how it's really going to be possible as long as my mom is alive. She's pertified my dad and I might talk to each other. She'll go out of her way to make sure we don't get to talk. If I walk outside to talk to him, then she rushes outside. I can't even talk to him on the phone, because she sits in the chair and listens to him talk. It's sad, and at the same it makes me very angry, because he could do something to change. I've thought the last few years that he stays with my mom because she couldn't survive on her own. She couldn't. She wouldn't know how to take care of herself. She'd just sit and mope. I think he stays out of pity.
I remember once, when I tried to tell my parents how I felt, my mom popped off with, "Your father and I love each other." I just remember thinking, "If this is love, then I don't ever want to be in love." I think it was that moment that I built up these walls and decided no one was ever going to get past them.
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Wow, everyone, there is so much here... so much to take in and so much to be sad about.
Tayana,
My mother is the reason my parents have no money. She has to buy everything she sees. The items get used once and then tossed in a heap. She is always whining that she "needs" something new and you can hear my dad sighing. They have convinced themselves that the reason they live in a dump is because other people are "house poor." I can't imagine why, but my dad has always let my mother handle their money, and she just takes out credit and finds ways to spend more money on more crap. He just asks if he can have 20 dollars here and there and if he can buy things for his garden. Hemakes a very good salary, and they never have a penny. My mother is so embarrassing about money too. She always told us it was impolite to talk about it and yet she is always using a sotto voce to ask if they can take out more, should they, do they have any left... etc. I remember my dad saying he was very depressed at around 30 years old because he felt that was all he would ever achieve - or that he had made it as far as he would go. And that is when he became bitter. If I ever complain about anything, his view is to suck it up and deal - because life just sucks. Mother, of course, flits around happily looking for something new to buy. And, Tayana, my dad seems to talk to my mother if she does something rude or outlandish and then she will try to make up for it so he doesn't get upset with her. Like one year she spent a half an hour talking about my body and, basically, how fat I was. He must have said something, because later she kept gushing (ridiculously) how skinny I looked in my bathing suit... Ugh. She is such a twat. She would never go too far - my dad is smart and would figure her out. I think she is kept in check to a certain extent because of that. She knows she cannot cross a certain point before he would get angry with her. He has done it before. And I think she knows she would never find someone to deal with her shit the way he does. So they have some sort of symbiosis...
Hops, I would LOVE to go out just with my dad. And I do hug him now and it is so real and nice. And he always stays on the phone after my mother and says goodbye just to me. That means a lot to me. I don't know if he loves my mother. I know he always showed her great affection. And I have overheard them talking (ewwww) about their sex life and that he still wanted her but she was not interested. On a few occasionas, my mother has relaxed with me and actually been a genuinely nice person. And one time I must have been relaxed ro just didn't care and I amde a joke and she looked at me and said she didn't know I could joke. Funny - everyone else in my life thinks I am pretty funny.
Janet,
My mother also was dying for me to get married and seems to be waiting- even now, for us to have some sort of falling out. She believes, I think, that I would see someone else. She tried to have everyone convinced that we were having difficulties while he was in Iraq because I 'never talked about him.' She was amazed when a friend pointed out my husband is handsome, and now she seems stuck on that idea - how did I get a handsome husband. Of course, at first, she was very concerned when someone told her we had a 'biracial' marriage because he is Mexican. She always told me never to marry someone black because 'no ne would want the children.' She was so fearful I would do something like that and disgrace her. How did your parents end up getting divorced? I can't see mine ever splitting up, although I prayed for years that they would.
Sun and Sally, will post to you soon. You had so many important things to say. Have to run Henry to the vets now.
Love, Beth
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Dear Bella, Sun, Janet, Hops, Ami, Tay & Beth,
Beautiful, poignant posts from everyone. I swear, if we put all these posts together, we would have an amazing novel.
Unfortunately, I don’t have time to answer everyone individually (I gotta work), but I hear each one of you. Each of you is very feeling & perceptive, with deep hearts.
I did want to say this to Beth: I see a lot of growth in you. I feel you are really seeing your FOO and coming to terms with who they are and are coming to accept the reality of who they are. This is a HUGE step forward. I know it’s INCREDIBLY PAINFUL. It REALLY HURTS. I would apply that trivial saying of “no pain, no gain”.
In another post, Ami said that this journey is like stumbling in an unfamiliar forrest. We fall & get up several times, but eventually, we get to a clearing where we can see clearly.
Love,
sally
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Beth,
The way my parents ended up getting divorced was quite strange, really. As a few Family Therapy sessions were coming to an end (badly - with me starting NC with my NMum and Nsister), my Mum told the rest of the family (including cousins, everyone) to choose between her or me. I wouldn't discuss it with the rest of the family, so they only got one side, so they all sided with her. But my Dad continued to speak to me, and this enraged my NMum. At this time, my Dad retired from work. My NMum now realised he'd be at home all day long, so her 'arrangement' of having an affair with someone who used to do DIY for them would be found out. She also found out from one of her 'buddies' that, in the UK at least, if you are divorced, then as a woman you can clain Income Support Benefit whilst still having quite a lot of savings, but you can't do that if you are just separated (but not divorced).
So, she told my dad to go and get a divorce from her, as she wasn't going to be the one who had to actually sort it out. She wanted to be able to blame him for it. (I've no idea what reason he put on the divorce papers, though). He went off and did as he was told. And then, without telling her (as she had not discussed with him where he would have to live, as that wasn't HER concern), he spent the lump sum from his pension on buying himself a nice little flat. She was livid, as she'd viewed that money as HERS, for some reason. He didn't tell her that he'd bought it till the day he was moving into it.
Weird situation, but it turned out OK in the end. It also made it much easier for me to continue to see him, as it meant that I didn't have to face the NMum at the same time, like I know several people here have to, if they want to still see one parent but not the other.
It's interesting what you said about your NMum's attitude to your husband. Mine is extremely racist (as is my Nsister). They were both also incredibly against the fact that my husband was a schoolteacher when I met him - both my NMum and NSister were mediocre at school, so they hate anyone who works in one! They were also against him because he had been married before, and had two kids from that marriage. I remember my NMum saying to me that it would cause problems for me because 'he'll keep giving all his money to his children'. Oh, how dreadful! A committed parent! (It never was a problem, actually <raspberry> )
Janet
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Beth, maybe my parents are clones of yours? My mom always ruined the finances, and still does. She goes on and on about how they don't have any money, and yet, they have more income than ever. She used to go out and blow money on nonsense, and none of us know what she did with all of the money she stole. They have a sort of symbiotic relationship, and I think if one of them dies so will the other.
Janet, I so wish my family would go for therapy together. I think it would be helpful. My brother got my dad to see a counselor once, but he only went once and swore it was worthless.
Is it an N trait to be racisit/bigoted? My mother is very much a bigot. I had a friend in college who was from a biracial family, and who also happened to live close to home. I'll never forget the day I came home with her for the day, and I made some comment about it. First my mom yelled at me because I'd been so close to home and hadn't called, and then she feigned concern because my friend would have all of the "black guys" hanging around her. I think she was more afraid I'd end up meeting a black man than she was me being around my friend. And I won't even talked about how her homophobic/bigoted remarks made me feel.
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Tayana,
I think it is an N trait to be bigoted. They are scared of everything that isn't just like them, so they are bound to be scared of people who don't look like them/ act like them/think like them...the list could go on forever, I think. My Nsister used to be so racist, she'd often come out with excruciating comments in public, and end them with 'Don't you agree?'!! She just had no idea that normal people don't think like that.
The Family Therapy was only marginally successful, in that it made me realise that reconciliation was a lost cause. But it made me see so clearly that I had to get away from them, so I suppose it was worth it. But it was extremely traumatic. And expensive.
Janet
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I wondered about the bigotry. It just seems like it comes with the territory, and I know growing up, I always hated the way my mom talked about black people, gay people, etc. There are donation stations around my town for people to donate items to various charities. She donated something one time and saw some Mexican people wearing what she'd donated. After that it was, "Those Mexicans just steal everything. You're just wasting your time doing that." You know if you bag it up to be donated, who cares who gets it, and how does she know they didn't come by it honestly. It was such an awful feeling to hear homophobic comments and sit there nursing this big secret, and just once, I wanted to say stop. I borrowed a video from the library once, "Transamerica" because it had gotten really good reviews and I wanted to see it. My mom popped off with, "Why are you watching this queer movie?" My answer was because I want to. Although I didn't get the movie watched, and I just sat there, heart pounding because I didn't want her to know my secret.
I'd like to do the therapy with my whole family so that I could confront my mom with some sort of mediator. When I've tried to talk to her, she just turns everything around so that it's about her.
Sorry, I sort of hijacked this thread. I didn't mean to.
Ironically, I used to think my dad was pretty open minded, and I used to want to tell my dad about myself. Now, he just mirrors my mom's way of thinking.
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Tay, I didn't realize you were gay... that is what you meant, right? Is that why there is no 'dad' in the picture? Have you had any nice relationships? I love the differences between races (well... I am not sure if there is such a thing as race, so I hate to use that word), cultures and lifestyles. It's what makes us all interesting. I have friends from all walks of life. My parents live in Vermont and my mother gripes that the "gays" are taking it over. Of course, she wouldn't know a homosexual if she tripped over one. She assumes I boink one of my friends I have known forever - she hasn't figured out he doesn't like my type. LOL. She is a bigot now in a backwards way - she goes out of her way to say "nice" things about blacks, hispanics, whatever. Once in a while she comes out with a truly nasty comment, though, and, like Janet said, will say, "Don't you think," or "I don't care what anyone else thinks." When she came to Italy, I swear to you, she kept asking how the women could all be such sluts and still go to church. Is that amazing or what? But they contradict themselves even in their bigotry - if someone is wealthy or important enough, all of a suddent their culture is the coolest. Ugh.
Wow, Janet. I don't think my parents would ever go to counseling. My dad thinks counselors are quacks - even though he was a counselor once. And they both agree my grandmother needed counseling. But they are both so quick to slam any profession (like you all said about the school teacher). For them it is anyone from college students, to non-degreed people, to cosmetologists, etc. It is one thing that does make me upset about my dad. I don't like that he puts down people. In his case, it is out of lack of self-esteem, I believe. I think he is always worried about what they think of him...
Well, this topic keeps getting richer. it is good. I am so happy we are able to bring all this out. It helps me a lot, and I hope it helps us all.
Love, Beth
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Beth,
The way my parents ended up getting divorced was quite strange, really. As a few Family Therapy sessions were coming to an end (badly - with me starting NC with my NMum and Nsister), my Mum told the rest of the family (including cousins, everyone) to choose between her or me. I wouldn't discuss it with the rest of the family, so they only got one side, so they all sided with her. But my Dad continued to speak to me, and this enraged my NMum. At this time, my Dad retired from work. My NMum now realised he'd be at home all day long, so her 'arrangement' of having an affair with someone who used to do DIY for them would be found out. She also found out from one of her 'buddies' that, in the UK at least, if you are divorced, then as a woman you can clain Income Support Benefit whilst still having quite a lot of savings, but you can't do that if you are just separated (but not divorced).
So, she told my dad to go and get a divorce from her, as she wasn't going to be the one who had to actually sort it out. She wanted to be able to blame him for it. (I've no idea what reason he put on the divorce papers, though). He went off and did as he was told. And then, without telling her (as she had not discussed with him where he would have to live, as that wasn't HER concern), he spent the lump sum from his pension on buying himself a nice little flat. She was livid, as she'd viewed that money as HERS, for some reason. He didn't tell her that he'd bought it till the day he was moving into it.
Weird situation, but it turned out OK in the end. It also made it much easier for me to continue to see him, as it meant that I didn't have to face the NMum at the same time, like I know several people here have to, if they want to still see one parent but not the other.
It's interesting what you said about your NMum's attitude to your husband. Mine is extremely racist (as is my Nsister). They were both also incredibly against the fact that my husband was a schoolteacher when I met him - both my NMum and NSister were mediocre at school, so they hate anyone who works in one! They were also against him because he had been married before, and had two kids from that marriage. I remember my NMum saying to me that it would cause problems for me because 'he'll keep giving all his money to his children'. Oh, how dreadful! A committed parent! (It never was a problem, actually <raspberry> )
Janet
Dear Janet,
Thanks for explaining that; it gives me some hope. My parents have been separating, divorcing, and getting back together for 23 years now, and are separated again right now. I feel dizzy just writing it down. As usual, the separation doesn't quite seem real to me, because he reports in to her every day, they still share money, and he still acts as if he's totally under her thumb. I now look at these separations as my Dad's punishment for being a human being, rather than a dog (the only creature that Mum can tolerate), and I can't take them seriously.
My father has learned over the years that any non pre-approved contact he has with his daughters while they are `separated' , will be paid for later (with interest) when they get back together. So he keeps it to an absolute minimum, and always reports back to N-Mother when any contact occurs.
The last time I talked to him on the phone, he rang back a few days later and basically said that I was not to do that again unless I call my mother all the time. This was after I explained that I needed more distance from her to avoid her abuse, and he totally agreed and seemingly understood. He also won't let me email him privately; it has to be a group email to both of them, or else he forwards it to her immediately so that she will ring me and complain `where's my email'?
Since I only write to my father about birds and conservation anyway, (which Mum hates) I have decided that she can have essay upon essay of the stuff if she going to be so insane about things.
I've just lengthened my emails now, and made them more technical and super-boring, with dozens of photo attachments of `buff breasted trillers' and `spangled drongos' which hopefully put her into a stupor. She'll sit on this for months, wondering what went wrong, before she can figure out a new ploy for getting me away from him.
Ah, parents.
X Bella
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Dear Bella,
I think that your F's behavior seems very "thoughtless" (to say the least) toward you as a person.How do you feel that your relationship with him is "conditional" on your relationship with her?.
That sounds very,very hurtful, Bella. How do you feel? I wonder if you are not able to face the pain of this.? .If I am being too "forward",I apologize and just tell me so. Love Ami
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Dear Ami,
I have different feelings about it all the time:) Today I am feeling kind of upbeat, I suppose, lol.
X Bella
PS. I think having a lot less contact lately has probably helped tremendously!
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Beth, yes, I am, and yes, partly that's why there's no "dad." I do have contact with M's father, but that's a very new thing. I repressed my sexuality for a long time, and I've only really been out the last six years or so. One of the things that really tortures me is telling my parents. M knows as much as he can understand, or at least we talked about what I think he can understand. I haven't told my brother yet. I'm still trying to see how that would work out, but my parents . . .
My T advised me not to tell them because I would only have a bad reaction, especially from my mom. She likes to complain about the "queers" and the "homos." She would make comments about musicians I liked or actors I liked, and I always wondered if she knew or found out. THe last couple of years, I haven't gone to great pains to keep things from her. I haven't hidden any books or movies. I would always sit and snicker behind my hand when she started going on and on about someone and how much she really liked them, and I'm thinking, yeah, and he or she is gay. I know because I just read a whole article about them. She really likes Suze Orman, and I have to chuckle all the time. When I finally stopped fighting myself, because for a long time I really thought there was something wrong with me, and admitted to myself what was really going on, her homophobic comments really hurt. I have to admit though, the last couple of years I find them really funny. I didn't think they were so funny when we had to vote on the gay marriage ban, and I was vehemently against it.
I always thought my father would be pretty understanding, since he's a little bent too. It's one of the "family secrets" I'm not supposed to know about. However, my parents left me alone a lot, and I used to snoop through things I shouldn't, so i know about the secret. About a year ago, I really wanted to tell him. I even started to work up the nerve to do it. It was about the same time as the gay marriage amendment came on the ballot. He made several comments, very similar to my mother's that made me reconsider. I decided I couldn't tell him either. It's an awful feeling to have this big secret. I'm not ashamed, but I'd like to be honest. Does that make sense? I'd really like to have a supportive family, someone that I could bring a friend home to and not cringe because I don't know what sort of comments my mom will make. When I was a teen, she used to dictate my friendships. You shouldn't hang around her because she's fat, or black or whatever. She'd tell me I would get dates being around my friends. The only thing she hadn't figured out was that I didn't really want dates either.
I haven't had many relationships, although my friend in Ohio might be a little more than a friend. She's a true kindred spirit. She's been so supportive. :)
Sorry, I could go on for along time about this, and I'm hijacking the thread again.
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It's an awful feeling to have this big secret. I'm not ashamed, but I'd like to be honest. Does that make sense? I'd really like to have a supportive family, someone that I could bring a friend home to and not cringe because I don't know what sort of comments my mom will make.
Oh, Tay!
I really feel for you, holding this in with your family, especially in view of all the other crap that your parents give you.
I agree with your T, don't tell your mom. I suppose if you told your dad, he'd tell your mom.
Yeah, Suzy Orman came out. So gutsy. Not that you aren't gutsy, because you ARE gutsy, but Suzy is in a different place than you.
Love,
sally
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Dear Tayana,
I thought people would be over their anti-Gay thing by the late 2000's, and it makes me sad that they aren't.
I think you should only tell your folks about being gay when its no longer a source of vulnerability to you. I agree with Sally; if you tell your Dad, he will tell your mother, and your mother will try hard to use it to harm you.
This is probably one of those things that you should only share with trusted friends, until you are certain that it won't be used against you.
X Bella
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Tay,
You could be anything at all and she would not like it. My mother thinks I am "weird" and to those around me I am straight-laced. LOL. If you had straight relationships, she would be on you for something about that, too. I am not sure what you mean about "bent" with your dad - did he have relationships or is he just interested? I told everyone in another post that I found out long ago that my mother either slept with another man or really wanted to, and my dad knew about it. At the same time, she was accusing me of being a slut - as a very young and innocent girl. I did starting acting sexually aggressive (more like confusedly aggressive as I wanted the attention, but not the actuality) as I think I must have believed that was the way to get someone to like you.
Please believe that no matter what your lifestyle, she would criticize it and hate it. Anything she cannot control about you will cause her spite.
You will find this funny. One time my girlfriend (who was a lesbian) was telling me how much she likes the show on Showtime - Queer as Folk. So my husband and I rented it and took it home to his mom's place to watch (we were traveling). WOW was that show graphic. I was so embarrassed because she watched part of it with us. Not because they were gay, but, if you've seen it, you know how much sex they show!!!!! She is very cool and normal, though and we laughed about how uncomfortable it was!!! I liked the story line, but man...
M will be able to understand as he gets older, but I think a minimum is fine now - just as we don't talk to our kids about our sex life or really go on about the different partners, etc in the family now. A loving mom is a loving mom.
I am glad you have a friend (?!) to share with and confide in. Does she have children as well?
Sorry all, to get off topic, but I think this is a big subject and one you will ened to address, Tay. I wonder if you are letting this affect the fact that you are not wanting to separate from your parents. Are you still seeking their approval?
Love, Beth
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Dear Tayana.
I can echo Beth's words that they would "hate" you no matter what. My M hated me b/c I wanted to be a virgin until I got married. My GM drilled in me to be a "lady" and I got a security from seeing myself as a "person with character"( as my GM taught me).This helped me to define myself when my life with my M was HORRIBLE9 and had no definition) . Well, my M thought this was the funniest,most stupid thing she ever heard of. I tried to live my life with integrity.I tried to stay married once I had kids etc,etc. She always ridiculed me and put up woman who were single mother's as "better" than me.
So--it goes from the ridiculous to the sublime----bleh Ami.
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Hey Tay,
That deserves a thread of its own...
big-time.
So glad you're open here.
love to you,
Hops
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Sally, it was just one more thing to deal with. It caused a lot of stress an anxiety, and when she'd start talking about "gay issues" I'd get very tense and feel sick.
Bella, I don't intend to tell them, either of them. I might tell my brother, am still considering that, but not my parents. I'm already enough of a disappointment, although I do have to wonder if my mother knows or suspects. She's made some bizarre comments to me.
Beth, I had never seen Queer as Folk, although I do have the season 1 DVD sitting at home to watch. My parents would never get cable or satellite, so I never got to watch anything like that.
By bent I meant that he leans a little towards the gay side of the world.
I do want approval from my parents. I want them to tell me that even though I've made some bad choices, I have done too badly after all. I'd like for them to tell me that they are proud of me. I'd like to hear that they would love me no matter what. That's what I want.
Unfortunately, I'm not going to get it. I toy with the idea of coming out to them all the time, just to see if I'd finally get disowned. Part of the reason I was so determined to move out was that it was becoming really, really draining to keep up the charade. It's really hard to play straight and pretend that I want to talk about, "you might get married someday" when I'm sitting there thinking, "Yeah right. Not very likely." I wanted to be able to tell M and talk about it before he started hearing all the homophobic nonsense at school. I was tired of having to hide my books and movies, and I just wanted to be able to relax without worrying, "Did I leave that book out? Did I leave that in the library bag? What screen did I leave up on the computer?" It was an enormous drain. I was so tired of it.
At least now, I can be open, although I don't like having my family at my house because I feel the need to censor myself, but I'm working on that. And it wouldn't have mattered if I was straight as an arrow, because my parents would have treated any man I brought home the same way. I did a lot of work with the local sheriff's dept., and my father was horrified I might find a cop to bring home. It was another of those moments where I sort of snickered, and thought, "not likely."
Hops, thanks for the love. I talk with this issue a lot with my T. It was one of the reasons I started going to the T to begin with.
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Dear Tayana,
I bet that your parents already "know" about your being gay.I agree that it is better to leave the issue alone for now. They don't need any more "ammunition" to hurt you with.
However,I would be very surprised if they did not know Love Ami
((((((((((((((((((Tayana)))))))))))))))))))))
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Tay,
You still might get married one day... we'll have to see what happens wit the laws :D
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Beth, a possibility, true. :)
Ami, if they know they are in deep, deep denial.
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Dear Tayana,
The more that I do the inner child work and also face my dreams, the more that I believe that we"know" most(or all) things .It can be down so deep that we have no "connection" to it in our conscious mind, though.
I think of all the dreams that I had about my M. They were all telling me what I just "figured "out here. I had them for my whole life.
The problem is that we are not connected to the "ideas" .Compost............ what does not fit Love Ami.