Establishing a Relationship With Your Dad When Mother is an N

[sally]

Dear Bella, Sun, Janet, Hops, Ami, Tay & Beth,

Beautiful, poignant posts from everyone.  I swear, if we put all these posts together, we would have an amazing novel.

Unfortunately, I don’t have time to answer everyone individually (I gotta work), but I hear each one of you.  Each of you is very feeling & perceptive, with deep hearts.

I did want to say this to Beth:  I see a lot of growth in you.  I feel you are really seeing your FOO and coming to terms with who they are and are coming to accept the reality of who they are.  This is a HUGE step forward.  I know it’s INCREDIBLY PAINFUL.  It REALLY HURTS.  I would apply that trivial saying of “no pain, no gain”. 

In another post, Ami said that this journey is like stumbling in an unfamiliar forrest.  We fall & get up several times, but eventually, we get to a clearing where we can see clearly.

Love,
sally

[JanetLG]

Beth,

The way my parents ended up getting divorced was quite strange, really. As a few Family Therapy sessions were coming to an end (badly - with me starting NC with my NMum and Nsister), my Mum told the rest of the family (including cousins, everyone) to choose between her or me. I wouldn't discuss it with the rest of the family, so they only got one side, so they all sided with her. But my Dad continued to speak to me, and this enraged my NMum. At this time, my Dad retired from work. My NMum now realised he'd be at home all day long, so her 'arrangement' of having an affair with someone who used to do DIY for them would be found out. She also found out from one of her 'buddies' that, in the UK at least, if you are divorced, then as a woman you can clain Income Support Benefit whilst still having quite a lot of savings, but you can't do that if you are just separated (but not divorced).

So, she told my dad to go and get a divorce from her, as she wasn't going to be the one who had to actually sort it out. She wanted to be able to blame him for it. (I've no idea what reason he put on the divorce papers, though). He went off and did as he was told. And then, without telling her (as she had not discussed with him where he would have to live, as that wasn't HER concern), he spent the lump sum from his pension on buying himself a nice little flat. She was livid, as she'd viewed that money as HERS, for some reason. He didn't tell her that he'd bought it till the day he was moving into it.

Weird situation, but it turned out OK in the end. It also made it much easier for me to continue to see him, as it meant that I didn't have to face the NMum at the same time, like I know several people here have to, if they want to still see one parent but not the other.

It's interesting what you said about your NMum's attitude to your husband. Mine is extremely racist (as is my Nsister). They were both also incredibly against the fact that my husband was a schoolteacher when I met him - both my NMum and NSister were mediocre at school, so they hate anyone who works in one! They were also against him because he had been married before, and had two kids from that marriage. I remember my NMum saying to me that it would cause problems for me because 'he'll keep giving all his money to his children'. Oh, how dreadful! A committed parent! (It never was a problem, actually <raspberry>  )


Janet

[tayana]

Beth, maybe my parents are clones of yours? My mom always ruined the finances, and still does.  She goes on and on about how they don't have any money, and yet, they have more income than ever.  She used to go out and blow money on nonsense, and none of us know what she did with all of the money she stole.  They have a sort of symbiotic relationship, and I think if one of them dies so will the other.

Janet, I so wish my family would go for therapy together.  I think it would be helpful.  My brother got my dad to see a counselor once, but he only went once and swore it was worthless.

Is it an N trait to be racisit/bigoted?  My mother is very much a bigot.  I had a friend in college who was from a biracial family, and who also happened to live close to home.  I'll never forget the day I came home with her for the day, and I made some comment about it.  First my mom yelled at me because I'd been so close to home and hadn't called, and then she feigned concern because my friend would have all of the "black guys" hanging around her.  I think she was more afraid I'd end up meeting a black man than she was me being around my friend.  And I won't even talked about how her homophobic/bigoted remarks made me feel.

[JanetLG]

Tayana,

I think it is an N trait to be bigoted. They are scared of everything that isn't just like them, so they are bound to be scared of people who don't look like them/ act like them/think like them...the list could go on forever, I think. My Nsister used to be so racist, she'd often come out with excruciating comments in public, and end them with 'Don't you agree?'!! She just had no idea that normal people don't think like that.

The Family Therapy was only marginally successful, in that it made me realise that reconciliation was a lost cause. But it made me see so clearly that I had to get away from them, so I suppose it was worth it. But it was extremely traumatic. And expensive.


Janet

[tayana]

I wondered about the bigotry.  It just seems like it comes with the territory, and I know growing up, I always hated the way my mom talked about black people, gay people, etc.  There are donation stations around my town for people to donate items to various charities.  She donated something one time and saw some Mexican people wearing what she'd donated.  After that it was, "Those Mexicans just steal everything.  You're just wasting your time doing that."  You know if you bag it up to be donated, who cares who gets it, and how does she know they didn't come by it honestly.  It was such an awful feeling to hear homophobic comments and sit there nursing this big secret, and just once, I wanted to say stop.  I borrowed a video from the library once, "Transamerica" because it had gotten really good reviews and I wanted to see it.  My mom popped off with, "Why are you watching this queer movie?"  My answer was because I want to.  Although I didn't get the movie watched, and I just sat there, heart pounding because I didn't want her to know my secret.

I'd like to do the therapy with my whole family so that I could confront my mom with some sort of mediator.  When I've tried to talk to her, she just turns everything around so that it's about her.

Sorry, I sort of hijacked this thread.  I didn't mean to.

Ironically, I used to think my dad was pretty open minded, and I used to want to tell my dad about myself.  Now, he just mirrors my mom's way of thinking.

[gratitude28]

Tay, I didn't realize you were gay... that is what you meant, right? Is that why there is no 'dad' in the picture? Have you had any nice relationships? I love the differences between races (well... I am not sure if there is such a thing as race, so I hate to use that word), cultures and lifestyles. It's what makes us all interesting. I have friends from all walks of life. My parents live in Vermont and my mother gripes that the "gays" are taking it over. Of course, she wouldn't know a homosexual if she tripped over one. She assumes I boink one of my friends I have known forever - she hasn't figured out he doesn't like my type. LOL. She is a bigot now in a backwards way - she goes out of her way to say "nice" things about blacks, hispanics, whatever. Once in a while she comes out with a truly nasty comment, though, and, like Janet said, will say, "Don't you think," or "I don't care what anyone else thinks." When she came to Italy, I swear to you, she kept asking how the women could all be such sluts and still go to church. Is that amazing or what? But they contradict themselves even in their bigotry - if someone is wealthy or important enough, all of a suddent their culture is the coolest. Ugh.

Wow, Janet. I don't think my parents would ever go to counseling. My dad thinks counselors are quacks - even though he was a counselor once. And they both agree my grandmother needed counseling. But they are both so quick to slam any profession (like you all said about the school teacher). For them it is anyone from college students, to non-degreed people, to cosmetologists, etc. It is one thing that does make me upset about my dad. I don't like that he puts down people. In his case, it is out of lack of self-esteem, I believe. I think he is always worried about what they think of him...

Well, this topic keeps getting richer. it is good. I am so happy we are able to bring all this out. It helps me a lot, and I hope it helps us all.

Love, Beth

[Bella_French]

Beth,

The way my parents ended up getting divorced was quite strange, really. As a few Family Therapy sessions were coming to an end (badly - with me starting NC with my NMum and Nsister), my Mum told the rest of the family (including cousins, everyone) to choose between her or me. I wouldn't discuss it with the rest of the family, so they only got one side, so they all sided with her. But my Dad continued to speak to me, and this enraged my NMum. At this time, my Dad retired from work. My NMum now realised he'd be at home all day long, so her 'arrangement' of having an affair with someone who used to do DIY for them would be found out. She also found out from one of her 'buddies' that, in the UK at least, if you are divorced, then as a woman you can clain Income Support Benefit whilst still having quite a lot of savings, but you can't do that if you are just separated (but not divorced).

So, she told my dad to go and get a divorce from her, as she wasn't going to be the one who had to actually sort it out. She wanted to be able to blame him for it. (I've no idea what reason he put on the divorce papers, though). He went off and did as he was told. And then, without telling her (as she had not discussed with him where he would have to live, as that wasn't HER concern), he spent the lump sum from his pension on buying himself a nice little flat. She was livid, as she'd viewed that money as HERS, for some reason. He didn't tell her that he'd bought it till the day he was moving into it.

Weird situation, but it turned out OK in the end. It also made it much easier for me to continue to see him, as it meant that I didn't have to face the NMum at the same time, like I know several people here have to, if they want to still see one parent but not the other.

It's interesting what you said about your NMum's attitude to your husband. Mine is extremely racist (as is my Nsister). They were both also incredibly against the fact that my husband was a schoolteacher when I met him - both my NMum and NSister were mediocre at school, so they hate anyone who works in one! They were also against him because he had been married before, and had two kids from that marriage. I remember my NMum saying to me that it would cause problems for me because 'he'll keep giving all his money to his children'. Oh, how dreadful! A committed parent! (It never was a problem, actually <raspberry>  )


Janet

Dear Janet,

Thanks for explaining that; it gives me some hope. My parents have been separating, divorcing, and getting back together for 23 years now, and are separated again right now. I feel dizzy just writing it down. As usual, the separation doesn't quite seem real to me, because he reports in to her every day, they still share money, and he still acts as if he's totally under her thumb. I now look at these separations as my Dad's punishment for being a human being, rather than a dog (the only creature that Mum can tolerate), and I can't take them seriously. 

My father has learned over the years that any non pre-approved contact he has with his daughters while they are `separated' , will be paid for later (with interest) when they get back together. So he keeps it to an absolute minimum, and always reports back to N-Mother when any contact occurs.

The last time I talked to him on the phone, he rang back a few days later and basically said that I was not to do that again unless I call my mother all the time. This was after I explained that I needed more distance from her to avoid her abuse,  and he totally agreed and seemingly understood. He also won't let me email him privately; it has to be a group email to both of them, or else he forwards it to her immediately so that she will ring me and complain `where's my email'?

Since I only write to my father about birds and conservation anyway, (which Mum hates) I have decided that she can have essay upon essay of the stuff if she going to be so insane about things.

  I've just lengthened my emails now, and made them more technical and super-boring, with dozens of photo attachments of `buff breasted trillers' and `spangled drongos' which hopefully put her into a stupor. She'll sit on this for months, wondering what went wrong, before she can figure out a new ploy for getting me away from him.

Ah, parents.

X Bella

[Ami]

Dear  Bella,
  I think that your F's behavior seems very "thoughtless" (to say the least) toward  you as a person.How do you feel that your relationship with him is "conditional" on your relationship with her?.
  That sounds very,very hurtful, Bella. How do you feel? I wonder if you are not able to face the pain of this.? .If I am being too "forward",I apologize and just tell me so.                    Love  Ami

[Bella_French]

Dear Ami,

I have different feelings about it all the time:) Today I am feeling kind of upbeat, I suppose, lol.

X Bella


PS. I think having a lot less contact lately has probably helped tremendously!

[tayana]

Beth, yes, I am, and yes, partly that's why there's no "dad."  I do have contact with M's father, but that's a very new thing.  I repressed my sexuality for a long time, and I've only really been out the last six years or so.  One of the things that really tortures me is telling my parents.  M knows as much as he can understand, or at least we talked about what I think he can understand.  I haven't told my brother yet.  I'm still trying to see how that would work out, but my parents . . .

My T advised me not to tell them because I would only have a bad reaction, especially from my mom.  She likes to complain about the "queers" and the "homos."  She would make comments about musicians I liked or actors I liked, and I always wondered if she knew or found out.  THe last couple of years, I haven't gone to great pains to keep things from her.  I haven't hidden any books or movies.  I would always sit and snicker behind my hand when she started going on and on about someone and how much she really liked them, and I'm thinking, yeah, and he or she is gay.  I know because I just read a whole article about them.  She really likes Suze Orman, and I have to chuckle all the time.  When I finally stopped fighting myself, because for a long time I really thought there was something wrong with me, and admitted to myself what was really going on, her homophobic comments really hurt.  I have to admit though, the last couple of years I find them really funny.  I didn't think they were so funny when we had to vote on the gay marriage ban, and I was vehemently against it. 

I always thought my father would be pretty understanding, since he's a little bent too.  It's one of the "family secrets" I'm not supposed to know about.  However, my parents left me alone a lot, and I used to snoop through things I shouldn't, so i know about the secret.   About a year ago, I really wanted to tell him.  I even started to work up the nerve to do it.  It was about the same time as the gay marriage amendment came on the ballot.  He made several comments, very similar to my mother's that made me reconsider.  I decided I couldn't tell him either.  It's an awful feeling to have this big secret.  I'm not ashamed, but I'd like to be honest.  Does that make sense?  I'd really like to have a supportive family, someone that I could bring a friend home to and not cringe because I don't know what sort of comments my mom will make.   When I was a teen, she used to dictate my friendships.  You shouldn't hang around her because she's fat, or black or whatever.  She'd tell me I would get dates being around my friends.  The only thing she hadn't figured out was that I didn't really want dates either.

I haven't had many relationships, although my friend in Ohio might be a little more than a friend.  She's a true kindred spirit.  She's been so supportive. 

Sorry, I could go on for  along time about this, and I'm hijacking the thread again.

[sally]

It's an awful feeling to have this big secret.  I'm not ashamed, but I'd like to be honest.  Does that make sense?  I'd really like to have a supportive family, someone that I could bring a friend home to and not cringe because I don't know what sort of comments my mom will make.

Oh, Tay!

I really feel for you, holding this in with your family, especially in view of all the other crap that your parents give you.

I agree with your T, don't tell your mom.  I suppose if you told your dad, he'd tell your mom.

Yeah, Suzy Orman came out.  So gutsy.  Not that you aren't gutsy, because you ARE gutsy, but Suzy is in a different place than you.

Love,
sally

[Bella_French]

Dear Tayana,

I thought people would be over their anti-Gay thing by the late 2000's, and it makes me sad that they aren't.

I think you should only tell your folks about being gay when its no longer a source of vulnerability to you. I agree with Sally; if you tell your Dad, he will tell your mother, and your mother will try hard to use it to harm you.

This is probably one of those things that you should only share with trusted friends, until you are certain that it won't be used against you.

X Bella

[gratitude28]

Tay,
You could be anything at all and she would not like it. My mother thinks I am "weird" and to those around me I am straight-laced. LOL. If you had straight relationships, she would be on you for something about that, too. I am not sure what you mean about "bent" with your dad - did he have relationships or is he just interested? I told everyone in another post that I found out long ago that my mother either slept with another man or really wanted to, and my dad knew about it. At the same time, she was accusing me of being a slut - as a very young and innocent girl. I did starting acting sexually aggressive (more like confusedly aggressive as I wanted the attention, but not the actuality) as I think I must have believed that was the way to get someone to like you.
Please believe that no matter what your lifestyle, she would criticize it and hate it. Anything she cannot control about you will cause her spite.
You will find this funny. One time my girlfriend (who was a lesbian) was telling me how much she likes the show on Showtime - Queer as Folk. So my husband and I rented it and took it home to his mom's place to watch (we were traveling). WOW was that show graphic. I was so embarrassed because she watched part of it with us. Not because they were gay, but, if you've seen it, you know how much sex they show!!!!! She is very cool and normal, though and we laughed about how uncomfortable it was!!! I liked the story line, but man...
M will be able to understand as he gets older, but I think a minimum is fine now - just as we don't talk to our kids about our sex life or really go on about the different partners, etc in the family now. A loving mom is a loving mom.
I am glad you have a friend (?!) to share with and confide in. Does she have children as well?
Sorry all, to get off topic, but I think this is a big subject and one you will ened to address, Tay. I wonder if you are letting this affect the fact that you are not wanting to separate from your parents. Are you still seeking their approval?
Love, Beth

[Ami]

Dear Tayana.
  I can echo Beth's words that they would "hate" you no matter what. My M hated me b/c I wanted to be a virgin until I got married. My GM drilled in me to be a "lady" and I got a security from seeing myself as a "person with character"( as my GM taught me).This helped me to define myself when my life with my M was HORRIBLE9 and had no definition) . Well, my M thought this was the funniest,most stupid   thing she ever heard of. I tried to live my life with integrity.I tried to stay married once I had kids etc,etc. She always ridiculed me and put up woman who were single mother's as "better" than me.
  So--it goes from the ridiculous to the sublime----bleh                                   Ami.

[Hopalong]

Hey Tay,
That deserves a thread of its own...
big-time.

So glad you're open here.

love to you,
Hops