Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: towrite on October 30, 2007, 12:47:24 PM
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I have a younger brother who lives an hour and a half away. I am puzzled and hurt that he's been so nasty to me in recent emails.
He told me about a month ago in a long phone call that he hated his job and was afraid of being canned - almost everyone in his company feels the same way, including his regional manager. He said he was going to some seminars put on by other companies in his field that week to see if better opportunities were available. Another week passed and I didn't hear from him. So I called him to see what the outcome was. He didn't answer. I left a vm. He didn't return the call. I called again two days later. Again he didn't return the call. So I emailed him, asking if he was depressed - too depressed to talk. In response I got this furnace blast about how g--d depressed he was, hell yes he was depressed after what he'd been through in the last five years - completely blowing my head off. I wrote him back and told him if he needed to talk I'd listen but please not to take it out on me.
Then this weekend I was trolling the www looking for jobs for myself when I came across two jobs in his field. I emailed him the pages. The next day I got a response for him that he appreciated my effort but "when and if" he went job hunting, he'd do it by himself.
It's hard not to flash back to discounting from my childhood, but his responses seem so bitter - and why are they directed at me? Now he will not answer his phone or respond to my emails. I've asked him for an explanation of why he's treating me this way and all I get is silence.
I know he hates it when I'm bossy - as I can be - but I have really strived not to be and don't believe either of my emails to him were bossy. It just hurts when he does this - and it's not the first time. He's in frequent contact with our M.
Is it me?
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Dear Towrite,
I stopped calling my brother b/c he was nasty to me. After reading about the N family, it is typical to have dissension between the siblings. It is almost inevitable.
The N family is so toxic and the N M does not want "alliances" between the siblings b/c it could diminish her "power" and "rule".
I think that in a family dominated by N's-- everything stinks.
I am sorry,Kate.I bet that you are a wonderful sister and a wonderful friend. I don't think that it is you or that you are too "bossy".
I think that the N sets up the family for every one to be at odds with each other. Love Ami
((((((((((((((((((((((Towrite)))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Towrite,
I think he's taking it out on you. It's not your fault, IMO.
I have been accused of being 'bossy' by others, too. I saw one of those cushions with 'inspirational sayings' on them once, and I was so tempted to get it. It said :
"I'm not bossy. I just have better ideas." :)
That might be what is happening here.
Janet
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Not at all anything remotely about you, Towrite.
He's just rejecting your support right now, so you'll have to save it on a shelf for when he's ready to be courteous again.
hugs
Hops
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towrite,
I'm agreeing with the others. My read is that your brother is like a pressure cooker about his circumstances. It's hard to be rebuffed when all you want to do is help. I can only imagine how bad he's feeling and you too. Keep on loving him (that may involve just not saying anything) and give him all the space he needs to get through this hard time. My two cents.
tt
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Dear towrite,
I think it was really nice of you to spend some time trying to help your brother out; what a wonderful sister you are!
I am sorry that you didn't receive the sort of reaction you deserved for your efforts; that must kind of hurt. I don't think your helping him was `bossy' behaviour at all- it was just being helpful.
Is your brother kind of the Golden Child in your family? if so, that could explain a few things.
X Bella
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I asked him to please explain why he was treating me like this and this morning I got another angry email from him in which he told me "do not contact me again." Said I "inserted myself into his lif" by sending him those job sites on the internet. I am really, really hurt.
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Janett, I love that quote! I'm going to put it on my wall. Talk about turning a criticism into a positive!! Thanks.
Ami, I think you are absolutely right about N families and no alliances. I had not thought about that. My whole family always dumped on me 'cuz for some reason they thought I could take it - all my life. When my father's mother died, I had to fly back from graduate school. When I arrived at my grandmother's house, it was full of people, drinking and eating. I made my way to the kitchen in search of my father who collapsed in my arms when he saw me, sobbing. It was the first time he'd shed a tear even tho' he was very close to his mother.
Your thoughts triggered another memory - my mother always talked about my middle brother (deceased now) and me to each other. She set us against each other by telling each of us terrible things about the other one. After that was well-ingrained, she changed her tactics and told each of how wonderful the other was and why couldn't we be more like the other. It worked. My poor brother (not the one I'm writing about) never got over the envy and jealousy she implanted in him and went to his death hating me 'cuz he believed my mother loved me more - which was the furtherest thing from the truth ever.
So you see how right-on you were! Many thanks.
Kate
P.S. I love learning new things and getting new perspectives on situations. You've given me food for thought, you generous angel.
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I'm so sorry this happened. I imagine you're feeling bad about it. I've had this happen to me, so I can empathize. But, please realize that you have no control over him, or anyone else, for that matter.
What I did to deal with this was detach: Still love my sibling, but respect their wishes for 'no contact'. I started letting my sibling follow their course, live their life, no matter how I felt about the 'mistakes' I thought they were making. I realzied that it's their life and they should live it the way they want. I let go of my desire to 'fix' their mistakes and help them.
It's really hard to watch someone we love go down what we consider to be (and may in reality be) the wrong path, but we have no choice in the matter. It's their life, not ours. All we can do is love them and pray for them. When they are ready, they will hopefully let us back into their life. This is what I mean by detachment.
hope you feel better.
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All the old tapes are starting - "What did I do wrong?" .... "I must be a bad person for him to be angry with me" ... I never knew why my parents took everything out on me and developed the belief that I was at fault but despairing 'cuz I'd never be able to figure out why. This reaction from my brother has restarted that machine - "What did I do that was so wrong to make him THIS angry with me?" I feel so much despair, so bad about myself.
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All the old tapes are starting - "What did I do wrong?" .... "I must be a bad person for him to be angry with me" ... I never knew why my parents took everything out on me and developed the belief that I was at fault but despairing 'cuz I'd never be able to figure out why. This reaction from my brother has restarted that machine - "What did I do that was so wrong to make him THIS angry with me?" I feel so much despair, so bad about myself.
Towrite,
I am reading your last post, and I feel like I am listening to my own thoughts. Your brother sounds like he is dealing with a lot of feelings right now. Sorry he lashed out at you. Maybe that is all he had in him that day. Doesn't sound like it had anything to do with you. Maybe he was hoping you would see how stressed he was but was communicating in a completely backwards sort of way.....I don't know. I just don't think it was you. Do you normally have healthy connection/conversation with him? Or is it an up and down sort of thing?
When you find yourself listening to the old tapes and you find yourself believing it all again, what usually helps you to break out of it?
My Melody Beattie book talks about how important it is to detach from our loved ones when they are "in" their stuff. (Sounds to me like that is where you brother was that day. ) What helps you to detach?? These experiences are huge buttons for me and they drag me right into my most unproductive thinking.
Poppy
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Bless you Poppy for your insight. Yes, we normally have a healthy and productive rel'ship. We have and can have 2-3 hour conversations just talking about things that trouble us, our childhoods, problems at work, etc. I know I am taking this too personally - it probably is connected to the bad place in his life rather than to anything I actually did. (Altho' he believes he has something concrete to blame me for.) It's a bad time for me, too, right now - I didn't need to lose contact with him at this particular moment. But I guess we don't get to pick and choose the "moments". I have a visceral pain in my chest from it, but mostly I feel very,very sad.
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Towrite,
I hear you on the pain in your chest bit. I hate that feeling. I think he loves you....but your sending of the job listings maybe pushed an insecurity button in him. You can gently hand that back to him. Cause that feeling belongs to him. But maybe he is not as angry at you as it seems. Just feeling like everything that happens points to his weakness.....(guessing....)
Is this something that the two of you could talk out together....maybe approach him and talk about it in really calm and non-reactive terms? Seems to me that maybe there is something that could be ironed out. And then you wouldn't have to be without him. But if he is refusing to talk....what can you do? Maybe drop him a bag of oreos and a gallon of milk and tell him you are so sorry about his job, but please talk to me. I don't know. Silliness could lighten the mood....maybe. Or just showing him that you are the kind of sister that can listen and NOT solve all his problems might soften his heart a bit. Sometimes my family will offer suggestions or helpful service, but it is not what I really want or need. Sometimes I feel invisable to them because all they care about it whether or not their gesture was received the way they wanted....of course they are controlling N people and they hate it when I don't allow them to save the day and look perfect....... but I know the power of someone who truly listens to my feelings no matter how weird or irrational or different they may seem. If you have had a good relationship with him in the past, I bet he was feeling some painful belief about himself and didn't know anything else but to push back on you so he wouldn't feel that way.
I hate these kinda things. I have this ideal world wish thingy in me that wants these bumps in the road to go away quickly and for the two parties to be better friends because they got through it together. Wishful thinking for you towrite. Sorry things are so hard right now.
Poppy
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towrite - I'm so sorry. The sibling relationship is such a tough one. Heck, all N family relationships are tough and detachment, which is really the best goal and Guest5's post is so great, is so hard to practice and learn, I find.
I backed way, way off my relationship with my sister some years ago. We talk occasionally and my goal is to keep each interaction positive and to avoid the many pitfalls of behavior on my own part - the only part I can do anything about. But I also recognize she has her part that she has to be responsible for.
You brother has to be responsible for his own behavior, for his own part. You are not making him act any way. If he is annoyed with you there about a million better ways to address it, but he doesn't have those skills and is not making an effort - that is his responsibility and it is not your place to teach him or school him. I very much agree with Guest about detachment.
It occurs to me that your NM probably tries to control him, yes? If so he is probably really, really touchy about anything he perceives as control. Compost it if you like!
((((((towrite!))))))
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towrite- I am echoing what several others have said. I see that you are hurt and I identify with the pain of having a helping hand rejected in such a harsh way but I suspect that each of you are having your old wounds tortured by this experience in very idfferent ways.
I suspect he is in such severe pain over his situation and even though you sympathize with him and want very much to help and offer support some sense of shame and inadequacy in his past experiences is powerfully tapped into by his situation and perhaps oddly enough by your concern and offers of help. His rage seems to me to come out of shame and helplessness and fear. I think he is feeling inadequate and fearful and powerless.
You are clearly feeling rejected and I see how painful that is for you. I'm not sure why your offers of concern and help are triggering his shame but perhaps you can think back to your early family life and figure it out. Could it have something to do with your mother's way of treating him when he needed something?
I'm am sorry for your pain and do hope that with the passage of time he will come around. I hope you can find a way to keep the door open for him. Your friend - GS
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Dear Towrite,
You are such a precious person. It is anyone's loss if they don't appreciate that(IMO). I want to address a larger issue that your post touched on(in me)
I see that I have a need for relationships to be how I want them to be for my own emptiness and my own needs. I have been seeing that with Maria ( and other relationships). It reminds me of the Prophet by Gibran. He says that there must be spaces in your togetherness. I read this book when I was a teen. I accepted that I was a "whole"entity. The most that another person could do was to walk beside me. HOWEVER, as I got sicker and sicker with my M, at some point,I lost myself. THEN,I needed people to go "inside' and define me.
I see much of my problems now as not accepting what Gibran said. This applies to all relationships. I really wanted s/one to give me a self.That was a huge part of my "misery' and still is. I am at the beginning of this lesson. It hurts to face it,but it is worse to keep hoping for falliable humans to fill up ANY emptiness that we have.
Compost what does not fit. This may not relate at all to your situation with your B. It might be just where I am.
Love to you Ami
(((((((((((((((towrite)))))))))))))))))))))
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Hi ToWrite,
Your brother's rejection and your panicky difficulty with stepping back (I know that feeling) reminds me so much of what I've been through with my daughter.
The only thing that made it better was me finally stopping all pursuit, withdrawing without anger, and simply sending generic supportive greetings that explicitly did not ask any questions or ask for any response. After a while, she did, and we weathered it and are on a new plane now and in touch regularly.
With an adult sibling, you could make that once a month. Do you think that might help?
love to you, and remember it ain't you...he has to work through his shame. By himself.
Hops
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Hi towrite,
I'm so sorry for the hurt you're experiencing. I think GS summarized my thoughts. Amazingly, the thing your brother can't take from you by no contact is your love for him. I feel the pain both of you are experiencing. In as much is possible I send you my best wishes and sincere prayers.
tt
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To Write-
I can feel the sadness in your posts, and it is so unfair and just plain wrong that you should be rejected,and in that manner, when you are providing the caring and support to your brother that many people are crying out for on this lonely planet. Such a senseless waste of an opportunity!!!
I hope you feel better, and can look past the sting that was inflicted, and spend some time on yourself and others who appreciate you.
(((((ToWrite)))))
Changing
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It's hard not to flash back to discounting from my childhood, but his responses seem so bitter - and why are they directed at me? Now he will not answer his phone or respond to my emails. I've asked him for an explanation of why he's treating me this way and all I get is silence.
I wonder in this kind of situation if there isn't some sort of "transference" going on. It's a lot safer to lash out at the older sibling than to recognize real problems in the family system. Facing up to the truth about parents is too threatening.
I've had some similar experiences with my siblings. My younger brother seems to be stuck in chronic depression and denial. He has made me the "bad guy" several times and we haven't had a close relationship during our adulthood. I was always bewildered by this, because it seemed we got along well in our early years, but in my 40's I came to realize its all tied into issues with the parents. When love and affection are in short supply, siblings become bitter rivals for scarce emotional resources. A couple of people outside the family system (including a therapist) have pointed out to my brother the apparent issues with the parents, but he doesn't seem able to do anything with the knowledge.
Sadly I don't know if much can be done about it, other than accepting the situation and letting them deal with their own demons, while realizing at the same time it isn't your fault.
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towrite- I suspect he is in such severe pain over his situation and even though you sympathize with him and want very much to help and offer support some sense of shame and inadequacy in his past experiences is powerfully tapped into by his situation and perhaps oddly enough by your concern and offers of help. His rage seems to me to come out of shame and helplessness and fear. I think he is feeling inadequate and fearful and powerless.
GS - I think there's a lot of truth in what you wrote. It doesn't seem possible right now to talk to him since he won't answer his phone when I call or answer my emails. I also agree that it's safer to lash out at a sibling sometimes. I can't remember if I related here that he told me not to call or write him again. So communication is out and space is in.
I talked to my cousin this morning who, without any idea what my brother'd done, said he cannot tolerate my brother's "recent behavior" and "insults". Now I see he's doing this to others in the family. I shared my experience with my cousin and now he and I are a bit worried my brother is having a breakdown of sorts. Brother P has always been a patient, kind, and understanding person. In fact, he's been so much that way that he's gotten labeled a wimp as an adult by many people. So this hostile, cruel stuff is a complete 180 from his usual self.
My gut says he may just now be getting in touch with his own anger which he's always suppressed - when he blew, it was scary but infrequent and he always apologized. I just wonder if that's what's happening and he doesn't know how to corral it or direct it - or can't b/c of his depression.
Any thoughts, you wise ones?
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My gut says he may just now be getting in touch with his own anger which he's always suppressed - when he blew, it was scary but infrequent and he always apologized. I just wonder if that's what's happening and he doesn't know how to corral it or direct it - or can't b/c of his depression.
That makes alot of sense to me. It is a VERY difficult question as to whether there is anything you can do at all. Perhaps there might be a way to communicate to him that you are thinking of him and just leave it at that with no offers of help or comments of concern. But then if he isn't taking your calls is he reading your e-mails? or snail mail?
I know that when these horrendous childhood wounds are not dealt with the effects worsen as we age - they don't simply go away. I wish I had some wisdom to offer here other than simply communicating that you are thinking about him. Please keep us posted about your relationship with him. You are in my thoughts. - GS
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Tayana:
I'm sooo very sorry you are hurting from the distancing and hurtful behavior your brother is showing you. Please know that you in no way deserve it, nor can it be construed as ok in any shape or form. He is lashing out at you and apparently others and that is inexcusable, whatever he is going through.
But that aside, let me also say that I can understand a bit of what your brother may be feeling I've never lashed out at others because of it. I tend to internalize everything. But I know this. It is devastating and I mean totally devastating to be in the position your brother is in, particularly if you were raised to really identify with what you do for a living and particularly if you are a man Identity and sense of self in closely tied to work. I'm not a guy but I grew up in an Nhousehold where the ONLY thing that mattered about a person is how powerful and financially successful a person was and what they did for a living. I lost my job through no fault of my own and it was the only thing I had in my life. I lost everything. I'm still in that position. Despite incredible amounts of effort---interviews, research, job applications, etc, I have not found a job. I feel just huge amounts of failure and shame and am in complete despair. It really destroys you.
So while I don't agree with your brother's actions, I can understand what he may be feeling. And when you're in that position, you also tend to start thinking about other things in your life....family or lack thereof, friends, lack of achievements, etc. It can be overwhelming.
You have told your brother you are there for him. He knows you care. That's all you can do for now. He won't take your calls or e-mails Perhaps in a little while, you can send him a card with a simple but caring sentiment just to let him know you are thinking of him. I know I would dearly love for my brother or someone to just say, "I'm really sorry you are having to go through this right now. I'm here for you if you need it."
So try and not take it personally. It is wrong the way he is treating you and you should not foster that behavior or accept it. Perhaps a little space and understanding is all he needs now.
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I have found that a lot of times people hate the messenger more than the message. I have been in a position where I hated a messenger and someone hated me. Maybe since email and phoning has not worked, you should send him a card with an apology (even if you do not need one.) Sometimes the high road is the way to smooth things out and then maybe later he might tell you what you did or said that made him mad.
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Hi ToW,
Similar to Sunblue, I was thinking how a job represents independence for a man. A crucial virtue in this culture. So for him, he may feel all the more helpless when you press hard to help him. It may have triggered his fears which he's turned into anger because it's too humiliating to feel your concern.
It's not that he doesn't know you love him. It's that he wants to, no, he needs to, resolve this situation on his own, and your efforts to get him to accept your help undermine his resolve to do that. He may have been feeling a bit enmeshed with you, and if he takes the offer to lay his head on your shoulder he may feel as though it's just too hard to raise it up again.
Hope that makes sense. it's my best understanding of a lot of what my D has been through with me. It really isn't about you or the nature of your good intentions. He just needs his own two feet right now, and even a hug can knock him off balance.
I think just contacting him once a month with a card like Sunblue suggests, or even neutral brief news and just Love, Sis, will keep the door open (even if he doesn't respond) and he'll get back in touch after he's confident his boundaries will be respected.
So imo, no more emails or calls now. And wait a month for your first card.
Let it breathe, he'll still be there. Always your brother.
love
Hops
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Such wise people, all. The card sounds like a good idea - maybe in a month or so. Thanks so much.
Ami, I know exactly what you mean about seeking rel'ships or trying to mold them based on my own emptiness and needs. I have had enough of picking people who resemble my NPs and then try ot make it come out differently. It has only delayed my own healing by allowing myself NOT to take off my blinders or to NOT listen to my gut.
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Dear towrite,
I am so glad that you were able to receive my "general message". It was more of a general perspective on relationships than on your B, specifically. As I heal, I SEE how much I want other people to fill my emptiness and define me. It is really scary that I could have studied Psycholgy for 6 years, gone to support groups for 10 years, read countless books and never figured out the basic truth of relationships 101-.( Hey My M has been a therapist for 30 years-- case closed)
I guess that head knowledge is very close to useless in changing your life. Somehow, with Maria, I was able to see my codependency in glaring colors. I only saw a little of it, BUT it was still so big.
I saw my whole relationship with her as a lesson in codependence. I wanted her to give me a "family and a best friend I, in turn gave her everything she wanted or needed. That was what I DID in relationships. I became jelly and started poring myself out in to the other person-bleh. No wonder I always wanted to be alone.
I was able to see this and pull back. I WAS able to get stronger and she and I are still friends. Now, it is a little different. I give her jobs, which I need(like decorating) and I pay her. I don't just give money which made me feel like I had no self respect.
I guess that Maria and I are like a marriage. We keep evolving( so far). This is good. Now, I feel more able to be flawed. I feel more able to show who I am .I feel like I can "think". I realize that my thinking was frozen. I never knew that until I started "thinking" more freely..I think that I healed a little bit of my shame core..
I feel like I can be a good friend to her, which I like. I feel like I can listen WITHOUT finding a solution( or making it O.K.) This is big.
I guess that I learned a lot-
I think that we need to have a core inside us that does not go so up and down when others are "hurting". Towrite, I am so glad that you are here. I think that you are a very intelligent and insightful person. With your B,I bet that your gut will tell you what is going on with him Love Ami
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Update - I took your advice, Hops, and sent him a card. It was cute and neutral and I signed it "Thinking of you." No response, but then I didn't really expect one. The longer this goes on the more I believe what has been suggested here is true - he had a destructive first marriage with three kids from it who have been damaged by their N mother and he can do nothing 'cuz he doesn't have custody. Then his second marriage was even worse, if that's possible. He expressed doubts about his ability to love anyone. Now he's in a job with no security. He didn't really grieve over his first marriage, had very little outward reaction except for brief moments. He tried so hard in his second marriage 'cuz he really loved the woman, but she was too sick (bipolar) to have any kind of rel'ship. It ended with him being angry - he didn't really fight back, fight for what was rightfully his (just "stuff"), just as he didn't fight back when his first marriage ended. He's always been passive, others have always seen him as gentle and patient, but the truth is he just never stood up for himself.
Now he has even blown off our cousins who are in the midst (with us) of dividing some land we inherited. Since he's an attorney by training (doesn't practice), he was in the thick of the negotiations and decision making. It's all very amicable, but he has now completely withdrawn and says he is not interested in participating any longer. The cousins are as stunned as I am. But it proves to me he's going thru some kind of break-down - or break-thru - b/c he never grieved or stood up for himself in the two marriages nor in any of his jobs. He isn't even coming to town from Christmas, not bringing his kids by to see our 87 y.o. mother, and giving her excuses about working so hard. So I know it isn't me. Have no problem with that. But it is nevertheless a concern. I just hope he has whatever strength to work thru all this. Our middle brother committed suicide and I know the risk is greater for siblings when that happenes. That preys on my mind.
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I am so sorry you lost a brother to suicide, ToW.
No wonder you felt such fear about your brother's losses.
I'm glad you send the card.
Maybe just keep doing that...
So he gets the message "always here for you" even though he can't respond.
Not now, anyway.
Holidays must be especially hard for him.
You'll both be in my thoughts.
love,
Hops