Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gabbenangel on November 06, 2007, 07:02:26 PM
-
A few a years ago I met a woman through a mutual friend. The first time that I saw her, she was praying at a Mass being held at our mutual friends house. I was struck by what seemed to be her exceptionally devote and what seemed genuine mannerisms while praying. Initially I can't say I was drawn to her but I was a bit curious, she seemed untouchable and bit aloof as if she would never walk up to someone and introduce herself, she seemed beyond reproach.
Over the next several months I would see her at my friends house it was there that she conducted spiritual direction sessions with parishioners and others. Then, one day, our mutual friend gave me a book written by her that was about mystical experiences and Catholicism, I was curious so I read the book but I remained skeptical and decided to meet with her for an appointment in spiritual direction. In our very first meeting I was struck by what seemed to be a gentle, deeply spiritual and humble woman. She was gracious, feminism, and extremely polite, almost to a fault. She seemed like the kind of person who would never hurt or even could be capable of hurting anyone.
I decided to work with her in hopes of deepening my faith and healing some old wounds, she has a MFCC license and I was told that she specializes in grief counseling, I was hoping that she would be compassionate to the painful childhood memories and complicated grief that I was trying to work through and heal.
After about our second or third meeting she invited me into a prayer group which was led by her. The prayer group was strange but I was hungry for fellowship and in much need of new connections in my life. The psychology of the group appealed to me at first but after a while I became uncomfortable with what felt like spiritual elitism. When I would express my desire to leave the group I would be met with her calm but reassuring excuses covering what seemed a hidden frantic need. I figured that she was just really a deeply caring person and really wanted either what was best for me or what was best for the group. However, something just was not right, one thing that seemed certain was that she seemed bent at always being the center of attention.
We continued to work together in spiritual direction and I did learn something's. However, overtime I became frustrated with what seemed like her subtle judgments, projections and lack of insight. At times I felt like as if was subtly despised by her. There was a certain tension between us that began to develop. I recall one time, when I was in grief over the loss of my father when I was a small child, she kept hammering me with the need to forgive him. I was angry and dealing with old feelings and she was completely without empathy. Of course I would forgive him, but it takes time and it is a process.
That was when I called it quits with her. I did try to express to her how I felt about her lack of compassion for my delayed grief and she gave one of those defensive unsympathetic apologies.
I was free... So I thought.
This NS woman runs in my social circle at my church, she is highly elevated, popular and well esteemed. Because of this and despite my intuition, I unconsciously questioned my judgment of her. I think that I hoped that one day we would at least be friends, I did like her or, I think it was her charm I liked. There was a time in our work and friendship when I would baby-sit her son and we became somewhat friends outside of working together in spiritual direction. At times I would even confess that I felt a bit jealous of the attention she gained through her work and her popularity but I felt OK enough with me and at peace with myself as well as I knew how to quickly nip aroused jealous feelings in the bud by being grateful at others gifts and goodness.
In my quest for spiritual growth I started working with a new spiritual director, a man that she knew and really respected or highly admired too. About a week after I ended my work with her I noticed that she asked this man to help spiritually direct her prayer group.
A year goes by. I am still happily working with this man in spiritual direction. I have not spoken with her, I have not seen her. I have felt better than I have in years, healing, growing, new friends, old friends, relationships are happy for me. The man that I work with leaves for the summer and instructs me to work with her in his absence. I am reluctant because of my hunch, something about her that just does not seem right. Nevertheless I begin work with her on the phone and once again I sense contempt and despise coming from her at me. She seems incredibly distrustful of me and I always feel, the best way to describe it, emotionally dirty after I have a conversation with her. It is like she brings out the worst in me. As the summer moves on I begin to have more memories from the time that I was abandoned when I was a child, this is not a new set of memories, I have worked diligently on this particular trauma over the years. A close friend of mine was moving away this summer and it brought up some pain. The NS seemed aloof, unsympathetic to my pain and suffering and uncaring. I finally had had it - I called her on this stuff, I told her how I felt, judged, despised unable to open up with her, etc. Her response was to shut me out, the silent treatment it hurt. I was tactful and kind the way I tried to rely my feelings and she was cold and contemptuous.
I let it go and moved on.
Then a week before my spiritual director comes back to town I hear that she has a Mass planned with him, he is not even back yet. A funny feeling crosses me but dismiss it, she would never do that I tell myself she is too spiritual.
Then I meet with my spiritual director and he treats me with coldness and aloofness like I have never experienced from him, not to mention he treats me like the abuser in the situation with the woman. It becomes clear to be me that she spoke with him about me and made me out to be her scapegoat for her bad behavior. It felt as though she projected herself onto me and then made me out to be the narcissist to him and her out to be the victim.
My reputation has been ruined at my church, with other friends in my social circle and all the while I have been distressed. She is the really popular one, the kind one, the one with the degrees and the one that my spiritual director esteems. I feel as though my reputation was vandalized by her so that she could protect her image. She seems now to me to be a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Does this sound like a story of a female narcissist?
-
WOW. It sounds really bad, friend. It sounds like it could be an N. Whatever it is, it is interesting that your intuition tried to warn you so many times. I think that you knew for a long time that she was not good. I remember a show on MSNBC. It was about con artists. All the people who were duped went against their gut feelings.
She sounds horrible. I am sorry for the terrible distress that you must have felt. Love Ami
-
My vote is yes. gabbenangel. She sounds like a classic narcissist--self-absorbed, controlling,manipulative, no true empathy--the whole nine yards . Not to mention the scape-goating and smear campaign, very hurtful things that Ns are well-known for in group situations. You are very knowledgeable about narcissism for a 'newbie!" If you are looking for support you will not find any 'blank stares" here because we all sympathize with you when it comes to narcissists.
Bill
-
yes gabben,
She sounds very narcissistic and borderline to me too. Everything wiltay said and the things I've experienced, line up with the typical.
The one thing that really stood out to me, was that your male friend all of a sudden was being cold to you. N's and BPD's delight in turning people's friends against them. I experienced this from the bpd and n's in my own life. It makes me glad that my friends are online mostly, so my own dysfunctional daughter can't turn THEM against me too.
My daughter already poisoned her boyfriend's parents toward me. The only time I had a long convo on the phone with the bf's mom, she informed me that I hated her, judged her family, said they were all a bunch of ___________. I was sitting there, holding the phone, telling her "No, I did not say any of that. I don't even KNOW you!" The lady could not be convinced. Apparently, my daughter had worked her wiles, by letting bf's mom know what an awful person I was, how I wasn't there for her for years and still am not (could have something to do with her COME CLOSE AND RUB MY FEET MOM/ I HATE YOU, I NEVER LOVED YOU, YOU ARE NOT A MOTHER AND YOU ARE RUINING YOUR OTHER CHILDREN LIKE YOU DID ME" behavior. A human can only be put down so much before they crawl into a safe hole somewhere. For me, that's my computer world at times, or my crocheting or reading, or praying.
I'm so sorry you endured that crud from the lady, gab. One good thing did come out of it...you found some nice online friends who care, have been there, and will hold your hand as you get back on your emotional feet.
Blessya
~Laura
-
Yes, Gabbenangel,
"The Saintly Narcissist" are by far the worst, in my experience.
A very warm welcome to you.
Love, Leah
PS> The Abuser's Tricks http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=3030.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=3030.0) is breathtakingly accurate,
insightful and validating.
Edit: http://www.kickbully.com/page1e2.html (http://www.kickbully.com/page1e2.html)
-
Leah, the Abuser's Tricks was excelllent! Thanks for passing it along. It fits so perfectly withwhat I experienced and I wish I had seen it a long time ago. I'm putting it in my "N file."
Bill
-
Thank you for all of your feedback and support - that made a big difference. It seems that most of you have had deeper and closer relations with narcissists you wounds must be greater than mine.
The NS plays such a subtle psychological game against people, it can be so distressing. I lost my reputation with someone who I valued but at least I have myself and I know who I am. The pain of the situation touched another nerve in me that has helped to serve to heal more wounds and bring me into a fresher perspective on life. All things get renewed.
I've learned from this experience and will keep my eyes more wide open in the future.
NS's seemed adept at holding popular positions and drawing people to them, as soon as you start to get wind or see under their mask they cut you off, disown you and trash your imagine in the process.
Do NS's ever get caught? Will other people start to suspect them eventually too? What usually ends up happening to them?
Thanks again for all of your feedback and support.
-
Leah, the Abuser's Tricks was excelllent! Thanks for passing it along. It fits so perfectly withwhat I experienced and I wish I had seen it a long time ago. I'm putting it in my "N file."
Bill
Thanks Bill, you are so kind. I have also placed a copy in my "N file" along with a copy of your 20 traits of Nism. Likewise, wish I had known years ago! Love, Leah
-
Leah, the Abuser's Tricks was excelllent! Thanks for passing it along. It fits so perfectly withwhat I experienced and I wish I had seen it a long time ago. I'm putting it in my "N file."
Bill
Yep, agreed - thank you for passing this info on to me - It was very helpful.
-
Gabbenangel,
NS's seemed adept at holding popular positions and drawing people to them, as soon as you start to get wind or see under their mask they cut you off, disown you and trash your imagine in the process.
Wholeheartedly agree and identify. The N eyes turn from bright sparkly clear blue waters to an expressionless dark black stone .... in an instant.
Do NS's ever get caught? Will other people start to suspect them eventually too? What usually ends up happening to them?
My experience to date is that they don't get seem to get caught as the ones who seem to lack the necessary knowledge of Nism remain their closest ally.
I too have wondered as to what does happen to them, eventually? There must come a time when their Nmagnet begins to weaken?
Love,
Leah
-
[My experience to date is that they don't get seem to get caught as the ones who seem to lack the necessary knowledge of Nism remain their closest ally.
I too have wondered as to what does happen to them, eventually? There must come a time when their Nmagnet begins to weaken?
Love,
Leah
[/quote]
It is a bummer they do not get caught - I have had to relinquish my own feelings of revenge otherwise I would be playing their game.
Since this woman has a MFCC license and is a grief counselor I wonder if filing a complaint against her to the behavior sciences board would do her some good and protect others from her harm in the future? The last thing that I want to do is cause her pain and suffering - I'm not the vindictive type, however, I am also not going to deny my own feelings of anger and hatred towards her that I had to work through to find some acceptance and peace.I have had to wait to get clear on my motives and I feel a sense of duty to be honest and outspoken about her incompetence, especially if she is a grief counselor and she lacks empathy...
Thanks,
Lise
-
I'm very sorry you experience that, Lise...and welcome.
It seems there are an awful lot of Npeople who are bright and competent enough to get into professions where they're awash in supply (the trusting attention of the vulnerable is a great sort of supply), and unfortunately "counseling" and "ministering" can slide into that so easily.
I think it takes a strong center, a personal understanding of your place in things, and some calm unannounced humility, to lead people in such intimate ways, imo. A deeply grounded person who's won most battles with the ego...
She sure doesn't sound like that.
Glad you're here,
Hopalong
-
Gabbenange,
Thank you for sharing this experience. I have experienced similar situations. I let it really bother me and felt bad about myself. I let myself feel less than. Now I know better. I think it's great that you can see the reality of the situation and can share about it openly.
BR
-
I think it takes a strong center, a personal understanding of your place in things, and some calm unannounced humility, to lead people in such intimate ways, imo. A deeply grounded person who's won most battles with the ego...
Hops,
Just want to say that I truly appreciate and value what you have written.
Love,
Leah
-
Thanks Leah for your kindness and your time to write me back! :D
-
Thank you, (((((((((Leah)))))))))).
Back at you. Times over.
love
Hops
-
I think the 'helping' professions are rife with Ns. I've known at least three people in the counciling/therapy field who were major Ns of the kindly, saintly variety. The role is perfect for someone who is controlling and manipulative because the job gives them license to be completely in charge where people are vulnerable and trusting. N heaven= power, the narcotic of choice for an N. Other Ns are never their clients by choice because the last thing they will tolerate is someone else controlling the agenda. That leaves the Voiceless as their main client base and there are plenty of us to go around. Please don't think I'm indicting all therapists. There are many wonderful people in this profession (and I have met a some), but there are also a whole bunch of Ns IME. It's a perfect setting for all their mind games. My 'two cents' of life experience.
Bill
-
hiya Gangel
What usually ends up happening to them?
Well he and I had a partnership computer business . I did the books, did instruction and not much more (I do more now) He built the computers and sold them, without any thought to the price he paid for the parts. There were times he had to borrow from me to pay for a shipment, but I had signing authority so as as soon as he deposited the $$$ for the sale of that computer, I wrote myself a cheque----then the point came that I said, "Why don't I just clean out all my bank accounts and send that to your ex and the 2 kids and we start from scratch" ? He never ask to borrow again.
.....but I was wanting to get out. I figured somehow he would slacken off and my part of the partnership would allow the government to sieze my accounts. I left him and dissolved the business and he went on a 6 month drunk and lost his highest paying cusrtomer---a chain of hotels around the province.
Much of his mail would come to me at my new address.......my name on it and I had to keep track
He then was in the position that the only thing he could do was rent rooms in the house to live--- he ended up with nothing and now 5 years after I have made a LOT of money and have forgotten the a** except for trashing my car and locking me out of the house.
Oh Yes! some get theirs and others just slide right by!
Izzy
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I think the 'helping' professions are rife with Ns. I've known at least three people in the counciling/therapy field who were major Ns of the kindly, saintly variety. The role is perfect for someone who is controlling and manipulative because the job gives them license to be completely in charge where people are vulnerable and trusting. N heaven= power, the narcotic of choice for an N. Other Ns are never their clients by choice because the last thing they will tolerate is someone else controlling the agenda. That leaves the Voiceless as their main client base and there are plenty of us to go around. Please don't think I'm indicting all therapists. There are many wonderful people in this profession (and I have met a some), but there are also a whole bunch of Ns IME. It's a perfect setting for all their mind games. My 'two cents' of life experience.
Bill
Bill,
Definately, for example, my XNH is a 'caring' professional. :shock: Tis' true.
He knew all about 'mirroring' and 'projection' a long long time ago.
Me ... i was in the land of 'crazy-making' wondering "what the hell?" Looking back it was hell!!!
Leah
-
Yep, it seems this particular potential N therapist was always projecting her stuff on me and it made me feel crazy...and it made me second guess myself. Once she pointed out something good about me but she said ahead of time "don't let this go to your head." Looking back the only reason that she was pointing out a good quality of mine was because it could benefit her image.
She had zero boundaries as a spiritual director and therapist. She would often socialize with her clients, whom I noticed all seemed vulnerable because they were wanting acceptance as well they idolized her and wanted to feed off of her popularity. She would never offer anyone personal information about herself so it led to confusion on my part I'd think -- OK, she wants to socialize but she will not open up and be a receptively human. It is as if she would seek the company of her clients to surround herself with praise and admiration, however, if her clients needed something from her, when you were not in appointment or direction, she would treat you with a lukewarm passive shoulder.
The two times I gently tried to confront her she acted confused and blameless. I tried to express my frustration at her lack of empathy for my grief over my father and her response was a defensively slung apology " oh, I'm sorry, I should have known that, I have 8 years of grief counseling." She ignored my pain and did not have even offer an ounce of sympathy for my grief or question if I could be still hurting. One of the most powerful ways that a counselor or even a normal person can help heal another is to extend then a sense of warm compassion and empathy that speaks from the heart, if it is not there then it is not there. It was then that I realized that her heart was cold.
Her mask is one of kindness and meekness. Her image seemed to be her life and God forbid if someone threatened her image, as I did by confronting her, she found ways using her status, to make it seem that that I was the unhealthy one, she would act distressed and pretend I was hurting her or could hurt her; for how could anyone think for one second that she has a cold heart and is deeply motivated by envy and fear?
She was also highly distrustful, I would say something good, and from pure motives, and she would respond with silent distrust.
I have fear because I want to continue to work in ministry with my parish and community but I fear her gossip and slander of me in order to protect her image and to advance her agenda. I am one of the only person's that I know that can see under wool and I think that terrifies her and that she will go to no end to try to smear me in the subtle ways that N's do such as dropping negative hints about people over a long period of time. The only other person who I think knows that she is toxic is my pastor, she used to always complain to me how he would never even look at her or give her the time of day.
-
Dear Friend
My M is a therapist in Boston. She is a NPD. She laughs at her clients . She loves to mock them behind their backs. While she is in the session, she answers phone calls.
Emotional health is no factor in your getting a license to practice therapy or to be in the ministry.
Gabbenangel, you sound like you are very clear thinking.Also, you seem to be connected to God, I think that you will be led as to where you should go to church and what ministry you should be involved with.
I think that if you ask for Guidance and just go by "baby" steps, you will be led in the right direction.
I think that you have a lot to offer in any ministry. You really, really helped me last night. The thought hit me that maybe you were a "real" angel. You truly, truly helped me to go forward with facing the truth.
It was such a boost to me. Love to you and Thankful hug , Ami
(((((((((((((((((Gabbenangel)))))))))))))))))
-
Gab, you describe this person so well. Very easy for me to imagine her. She is the CLONE of the person who was my 'best friend' (that is such a joke!) for almost 10 years. "Randy" is/was a mental health councilor, loved by everyone, including me of course, until I finally confronted him with his constant need to control and manipulate everybody and everything. Essentially he appointed himself benevolent dictator for life in every situation by being sneaky and devious. This included artfully sabotaging any and all competition for his spotlight, myself included of course. I now know he was sabotaging me from Day One of our 'friendship.' This was within a large social group I use to belong to.
His mannerisms are identical to what you describe: caring, kind, mild-tempered and meek. You can easily imagine him wearing a halo to go with his angelic face. Very unassuming and 'trustworthy,' but he never revealed the smallest inch of himself, ever. I use to think it was just another power ploy(he knows everything about you, you know nothing about him) and I think that's true, but more importantly I think there was nothing there to reveal! The N as an emotionless, robotic, empty shell. And whenever you asked for real sympathy or feeling you got a heart of stone. Again, nobody home.
What I wanted to say mostly though was that I tried to salvage some of my relationships, some good, very-long time friendships, within this social group and I've finally had to give them all up, one by one. Over a two year period he has slowly and completely 'poisoned the well' so that I can't drink the water without getting sick. He has been relentless (and successful) in trying to destroy all of my relationships within this group. It is as you say--he is TERRIFIED by anyone who can see through his mask and threaten his house of mirrors. I am the crack in the mirror and intolerable. There is no 'live and let live' for him, it's life or death.
Mostly he has done this by employing (manipulating) two other people (that I know of!) to smear me and make me look bad, while he always stays an arms-length away with clean hands. One of these people is an emotionally disturbed woman whom he has manipulated into outright hatred of me and she has taken on the task of vilifying me as her mission in life. It's absurd really. While people don't take her all that seriously she leaves a poisonous residue in her wake and people's opinion of me subtlety changes without them even being aware of it. To make a long story short, the whole situation has become very toxic for me. I start to feel crappy about myself almost immediately when I'm around these people and my peace of mind and generally good spirits turn sour like old milk. I find myself getting irritated and disappointed with people for being so gullible and sheep-like and then of course they like me even less. It's a no-win situation and life is much much too short. Thanks for listening.
Bill
-
Hi Ami,
Thank you for your insights and kind compliments. I'm glad that you are feeling better today.
Yes, you are correct I just have to trust God - it is His show and he will point me in the right direction, yep "baby-steps" I like that. I once heard that if you take the power of Satan and compare it with God's triumph it is like comparing and ant to the empire state buidling. Thank you Ami!
Gabbenangel
-
Gabbenangel wrote:
She was also highly distrustful, I would say something good, and from pure motives, and she would respond with silent distrust.
I have fear because I want to continue to work in ministry with my parish and community but I fear her gossip and slander of me in order to protect her image and to advance her agenda. I am one of the only person's that I know that can see under wool and I think that terrifies her and that she will go to no end to try to smear me in the subtle ways that N's do such as dropping negative hints about people over a long period of time. The only other person who I think knows that she is toxic is my pastor, she used to always complain to me how he would never even look at her or give her the time of day.
Dear Gaggenangel,
Having read your posts, likewise, my ongoing close relationship with God, has been the source and strength; that has held me, kept me, and led me, all the way through and along my life journey from young childhood to the woman of today.
Re: She was also highly distrustful, I would say something good, and from pure motives, and she would respond with silent distrust.
My personal experience tells me that the person you describe has envy in her heart.
I have fear because I want to continue to work in ministry with my parish and community but I fear her gossip and slander of me in order to protect her image and to advance her agenda.
Have no fear, but instead place your trust in God because you have given your heart to work in ministry within your parish and community and he will honor that - not saying that all will be easy, from my own personal experience, most likely it will be a test and a trial for you, but you have a strong ally in your pastor who clearly seems to have rightly discerned this person's toxicity.
With God for you no-one can triumph against you. We just lean on his understanding and place our total trust in him.
Prayerfully thinking of you.
Love, Leah
-
[ Mostly he has done this by employing (manipulating) two other people (that I know of!) to smear me and make me look bad, while he always stays an arms-length away with clean hands. One of these people is an emotionally disturbed woman whom he has manipulated into outright hatred of me and she has taken on the task of vilifying me as her mission in life. It's absurd really. While people don't take her all that seriously she leaves a poisonous residue in her wake and people's opinion of me subtlety changes without them even being aware of it. To make a long story short, the whole situation has become very toxic for me. I start to feel crappy about myself almost immediately when I'm around these people and my peace of mind and generally good spirits turn sour like old milk. I find myself getting irritated and disappointed with people for being so gullible and sheep-like and then of course they like me even less. It's a no-win situation and life is much much too short. Thanks for listening.
Bill
[/quote]
Hi Bill:
Have you ever seen this web-site:
Here is an excerpt:
So, projection is everywhere.
The worst thing about it is that mud sticks best to a clean spot. I'm sure that people who do this think they're clever, but it's childsplay. Send a muddy child into an unsupervised school yard and wait to see what happens. He will rub himself off on every cleaner, smaller child he can find, till they are all crying and he looks good by comparison.
Looks good by comparison. Those are the all-important words. The hypocrite makes himself look good by comparison with others. He does that the easy way — by smearing himself off on others to make them look bad. This is the root of envy. Which is NOT a rare motive for what people say about others. It's an all-too-common motive.
http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/narcissistic_projection.htm
-
So, projection is everywhere.
The worst thing about it is that mud sticks best to a clean spot. I'm sure that people who do this think they're clever, but it's childsplay. Send a muddy child into an unsupervised school yard and wait to see what happens. He will rub himself off on every cleaner, smaller child he can find, till they are all crying and he looks good by comparison.
Looks good by comparison. Those are the all-important words. The hypocrite makes himself look good by comparison with others. He does that the easy way — by smearing himself off on others to make them look bad. This is the root of envy. Which is NOT a rare motive for what people say about others. It's an all-too-common motive.
http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/narcissistic_projection.htm (http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/narcissistic_projection.htm)
WOW! Thanks Gabbenangel,
for posting the above, indeed, truly validating and most encouraging.
LeahsRainbow wrote:
My personal experience tells me that the person you describe has envy in her heart.
So gratefully thankful.
Love, Leah
-
Gabbenangel, thanks for the info/article on projection. Some comforting words and lots of good stuff that illuminates some things I have puzzled about for a long time. I agree that projection is a huge factor in human relationships and esp concerning the mind-games of narcissists. I've even been accused of projection myself when I know it's actually the accuser doing the projecting of the projection! Gosh, the double-backflips that people can do to blind themselves to their own flaws. Not that I'm not capable of the same thing myself. Well, maybe not a double back-flip! But the minute you start pointing fingers it's time to look in the mirror.
If you are 'new to narcissism' (very hard to believe, you are so aware and knowledgable), you do not realize how dedicated and motivated this woman will be to destroy you and drive you away from her world. The danger you represent to her is 'existentially threatening' (per Vaknin, but I know this first hand). I was willing to live and let live with Randy and move on, but he was not and COULD NOT. She will spread her poison to everyone she can and she has far more power and credibility in this situation than you and you will be at a supreme disadvantage from the start. Your unwillingness to even 'engage' will do you no good. She will bring the battle to your doorstep and give you no choice.
Notice that the "innocent" people he fooled ain't innocent. They committed the Original Sin, believing an obvious lie just because it was juicy. Like Eve.........Narcissists and political character assassins are dangerous precisely because people do this. If, say, you have known someone for 10 years, you know a lot about him. Doubtless, you have seen his honesty tested and seen that he proved to be an honest man. So, nobody should be able to slither up to you tomorrow and tell you he's dishonest. If you buy that, you are betraying that honest man. To believe that lie, you must annihilate history and 10 years of evidence to the contrary. You are not innocent.
The above is from the article your referred to. I don't entirely agree with this. Good people can become ill from poisons spread by toxic people who are in positions of power. Even healthy people can catch the flu. So much of human behavior is subconscious and when people become fearful (e.g. afraid of picking the losing side when they don't have a clue what's going on) they behave in ways that are not typical for themselves in normal circumstances. Memories become short and even non-existent in a battle for hearts and minds. They probably also greatly fear becoming a target themselves.
But forget about them. If they choose against you despite their knowledge of truth, they've chosen out of fear, not reason and the consequences are their problem, I agree. The real hazard is becoming infected yourself and becoming toxic yourself, which is what happened to me. Out of pure defensiveness from being constantly attacked I became obnoxious and not-myself and I wandered in a wasteland of anger and sorrow for a long time. I'm not saying this will happen to you because you are not me, but it's something to consider. In some battles, there is nothing to win. In hindsight, I couldn't have done too many things differently given the state of my knowledge and spiritual development at the time and so here I am, just grateful to be feeling much better.
Bill
-
Gabbenangel wrote:
The worst thing about it is that mud sticks best to a clean spot. I'm sure that people who do this think they're clever, but it's childsplay. Send a muddy child into an unsupervised school yard and wait to see what happens. He will rub himself off on every cleaner, smaller child he can find, till they are all crying and he looks good by comparison.
Looks good by comparison. Those are the all-important words. The hypocrite makes himself look good by comparison with others. He does that the easy way — by smearing himself off on others to make them look bad. This is the root of envy. Which is NOT a rare motive for what people say about others. It's an all-too-common motive.
http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/narcissistic_projection.htm (http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/narcissistic_projection.htm)
Gabbenangel,
Simply cannot thank you enough for posting the above link to the most insightful and conceptual writing on the subject of Projection that I have yet to come across during my quest for answers.
Printed off some 12 pages to include: Projection, The Projection Machine, and Projective Identification.
Believe with all my heart that the study of which will provide much needed, and desired, closure.
With thanks,
Leah
-
Hi Bill,
You said:
If you are 'new to narcissism' (very hard to believe, you are so aware and knowledgable), you do not realize how dedicated and motivated this woman will be to destroy you and drive you away from her world. the danger you represent to her is 'existentially threatening'.....
I AM new to ever having an experience with a real sincere N. But I am not new to psychology and personality disorders. However, I never knew that much about them until my run in with this past N. About 3 months ago I started researching...at first it was because she shunned me with such a fierce slam that I thought that I must be the deeply disordered one, I had her up on a pedestal for a long time and only occasionally would I see under her mask and even then I would dismiss it rationalize it. I went through 2 months of distress...praying all the while.
My prayers led me to pay attention to my intuition which led me to research N's....it was as if one day I was staring at a website about N's and I could not believe my eyes...it was her. I read all that I could...I weighed carefully her behaviors and mine so that I could be clear and just when I felt my heart say it was not my fault...my old pain came up around my mom's abuse and abandonment. My mom was more a paranoid than N but she had the some of the same qualities as N's.
Why is it that N's or deeply disorder people are the ones the wounded gravitates towards? Not all people that I gravitate towards are disordered but I can see that the healtier I get the more that I gravitate towards no one...people seem to gravitate towards me.
-
Also Bill,
I take to heart your warning about her not letting me off the hook, N's from what I have read, will use trickery, carefully dropping subtle negative hints, covered over in caring language about the people they which to smear. They will do this over a long period of time. I can feel the slander even though I have heard very little peopel have stopped calling me over the last few months which is very odd....Gossip creates paranoia in those that have been gossiped about...we start feeling as though everyone is talking about us. I try never to act on that stuff and I try to stay rational...I feel it is one of the mind games that N's play...they have you pegged... they know your buttons and they work them. I bet as soon as I start feeling better and start gaining a new perspective she will somehow reappear in my life again.
The good news is that I have friends and family that she can never touch. There are people that love and support me these are people that she will never be able to relate to and they would see through her wool suit from the first glance. I will just hang with them.
The challenge is what you say...to remain detached and not to engage in their behavior of gossip or defense tactics, not to stoop to their level.
While praying this past weekend I got an image of Christ asleep in the stern of the boat as it was tossing about during the storm and the disciples were flipping....it was as if it was God saying to me just be at peace through the storm...all will pass.
Peace and thank you for your input and comments. I really enjoy reading your posts.
Have a great weekend-- if I do not get chance to get back on line when you post.
Peace,
Lise
-
Hey all,
I haven't read everything, but I have the general idea and have been thru' it.
My first therapist after leaving the N worked from her home and it was inaccessible to me, so she came to my home.That in itself makes it appear social, not to mention she brought Chinese Tea.
Whatever I said, she then told me what happened to her in that same situation. (Nothing against the French) She had such a heavy accent that I would sit and listen SO hard to hear if she was helping me with these tales of hers, for which I was paying her and I'm not talking.
She was the one tho' who introduced me to Narcissism. Told me to read about NPD on the Internet. I was so grateful that she had helped me, because that was when I learned about it and knew my daughter had married one and I had moved 2000 miles away from 'home' with one!
She knew I lived alone and didn't socialize, but said I ought to. I didn't want to. She didn't talk about boundaries. So it was Movie Night for everyone. Ii thought these were her friends. We also had Xmas and Halloween nights. One time I suddenly found out that these ALL were her clients.
I thought that was so wrong that I said I felt we had done all we could do and ended it.
In retrospect, I can puit her almost in the N category.
xx
Izzy
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Why is it that N's or deeply disorder people are the ones the wounded gravitates towards?
Easy answer to this one...having been the "wounded" in the past, the reason I gravitated toward the N's and X in my life, was because I WAS NEEDY emotionally and socially. X felt like someone I could connect with spiritually, promised me the sun, moon and stars, in the form of publishing my poetry, giving me a position of worship leader/deliverance minister eventually in X's ministry, and basically promising to be that mother-figure, friend forever.
I had come through a painful relationship before that, and X stepped in as savior of a sort, nurturer, teacher, guru if you will. I have always had issues with authority figures but at the same time had a type of AWE toward them. I definitely had AWE when it came to X and N's. These creatures FASCINATED me...how they could be so beautiful or handsome, talented, sure of themselves, closely knit and connected to God in a way I felt was almost unreachable for me. I came to see them as my answer givers, my source to direction in my life, my source to inner healing of my hurts.
Sadly, after a while, X and N's get tired of ya. Either you aren't like the people they admire or want with them, or they just plain don't think you measure up in some way to what they were looking for. Then, the devaluing, resenting, silent treatment, mockery and finally discarding and replacing comes about.
That's how it is with dysfunctional families and some of their members even as adult-children.
~RM
-
Hi everyone I'm new here & felt that my situation was so similar to Gangel's, that I had to reply. I just left my N husband after being married only a few mos. Being a devout Catholic, I struggled w/ this decision. But I managed to leave w/ some dignity, self respect & my faith intact. Yes, he tried to rob me of that too. But God prevailed; always does. Because of my reading the bible, I saw the contrast between God's teachings & the rantings of my "heretic" N. The Good Book says that we should privately confront one who sins against us, twice. If they don't repent, cast them out. And cast them out in front of others, so that all we see. Like you, I'm not a spiteful person but I am God loving. There is mention of the things that God hates in the bible too. My N did all of those & worse. He even tried to have our priest side w/ him against me. Wow, what a rich source of Narc supply! Now he's trying to get other parishoners against me. Point is, that N's love to ally themselves w/ those who aren't quick to judge & are very forgiving in nature. The pews are filled w/ such nice, unsuspecting people, unfortunetely. Ultimately, I trust in God before all. I know that the Lord will guide me thru this. Read what the bible says about what to do w/ these N's amongst us. As a Christain, I feel duty bound to uphold the truth. I pray for the next target that comes into my N's view. I believe I can't just move on without helping the next targets. What kind of God loving being would I be? To close my eyes to it would be a sin for me.I'm not saying that you or anyone should do what I am, by unmasking the N. But I feel duty bound as a Christian, to do so. My prayers are with you all. God Bless
-
Movie nights, holiday parties and other social events between a therapist and her clients?!?!?!?! The Code of Ethics of all mental health professionals specifically discourage multiple relationships because they do more harm than good. Granted, there can be instances where a multiple relationship is unavoidable (i.e. your child attends the same public school and your therapist's child), but partying with your therapist AND her other clients on a regular basis?!?!?!?!?!? NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Bones, M.S.
Addiction Psychology
-
I am not saying that the spending time together outside the office is "right",but the worst therapist is one who "plays with your mind" for their own power (or money) needs.
The patient can be really hurt and pushed down even further than when they started therapy.
A therapist's emotional development is never considered. You can get a degree b/c of intellectual ability and be a ZERO ,emotionally.
Forgive my passion for this topic but therapy can often harm the patient-. Ami
-
Ami, I agree with your views about therapists. Here's an example that I think fits what you said. An old friend of mine was seeing a therapist 2-3, sometimes 4 times a week for something like 5 years. He nearly needed a second job to afford it. I saw him at least once a week during this time. He was totally dependent upon her and whenever she went on vacation he fell apart and couldn't function until she got back. She was obviously encouraging his dependency and seemed to have no plan for him to move forward and become healthy on his own. Over these years he became more and more of a big baby (which honestly he often was before therapy!) stubbornly unwilling to consider anything but his own needs and POV and our friendship withered. She was 're-parenting' him, which of course explains and justifies all of this babyish/dependent behavior, but I thought it was a crock. She was making a pile of money off of him with no end in sight and no sign of progress that I could see over all this time. I could be wrong of course, but I think he was buying a professional mommy, not therapy.
Bill
-
Can you buy a professional mommy---Where? Ami
-
Ami, I agree with your views about therapists. Here's an example that I think fits what you said. An old friend of mine was seeing a therapist 2-3, sometimes 4 times a week for something like 5 years. He nearly needed a second job to afford it. I saw him at least once a week during this time. He was totally dependent upon her and whenever she went on vacation he fell apart and couldn't function until she got back. She was obviously encouraging his dependency and seemed to have no plan for him to move forward and become healthy on his own. Over these years he became more and more of a big baby (which honestly he often was before therapy!) stubbornly unwilling to consider anything but his own needs and POV and our friendship withered. She was 're-parenting' him, which of course explains and justifies all of this babyish/dependent behavior, but I thought it was a crock. She was making a pile of money off of him with no end in sight and no sign of progress that I could see over all this time. I could be wrong of course, but I think he was buying a professional mommy, not therapy.
Bill
Bill,
Co-dependency springs to mind!!!
Wonder if there is such a thing as an impoverished therapist???!!
Leah
-
Sure Ami, they're also called blow-up dolls. Do want me to send you a spare catalogue?
-
I could put my mother in the window like Norman Bates. Ami
-
Ami, I almost broke my desk pounding on it. Life is so weird! I saw that scene in Psycho LAST NIGHT. Do do do do..........
Bill
-
Ok, Ami, Now I realize you must have watched Psycho last night too. Tell me you did!
-
No--Bill---I just have that scene burned in my mind. Ami
-
Leah, Well I sure know who was paying for her vacations and I doubt if she was staying in Motel 6.
Bill
-
Ami, it is one of the classic scenes, I think. Still it's a strange coincidence that we had the same "vision,"if you want to call it that, near the same time. Weird.
Bill
-
Bill, the new discoveries in Quantum Physics are that there is really no "time and space" as we know it. They have done studies with light particles where one particle will "know" what another particle(far away) is "doing'.
Also, "great minds think alike." Ami
-
Ok, Ami, Now I realize you must have watched Psycho last night too. Tell me you did!
I'm sitting here laughing at my desk or (shall I say rolling under it) on a monday morning as I get caught up reading these posts...
Bill - I started to watch Psycho on Saturday eve. I watch the Birds beforehand...funny stuff here.
-
You are cute,Lise. Ami
-
the reason I gravitated toward the N's and X in my life, was because I WAS NEEDY emotionally and socially. X felt like someone I could connect with spiritually, promised me the sun, moon and stars, in the form of publishing my poetry, giving me a position of worship leader/deliverance minister eventually in X's ministry, and basically promising to be that mother-figure, friend forever.
The above is a good description of the N Woman and my situation, talk about calling a spade a spade.
This N woman was exactly all that you described above and more. When it came to ministry she would oppress people, pick the least talented or gifted in a particular area for a particular role, it was like she wanted everyone to look bad so that she could look good but she knew that she had to let others do stuff too so it appeared to all that she was not trying to gain the spotlight and that she was humble...all to create image but still covertly agressive.
She always had me doing book binding or admin stuff behind the scenes of her prayer ministry. Yet, I am a gifted speaker but she would not let me speak at group meeting or at retreats. She said that my motives for speaking were for selfish reasons, or for points of honour. She even once said that she was afraid that I suffer from spiritual pride, therefore the only reason that I would want to help anyone or speak is to gain admiration, hmmmm I think that was a gross projection of herself. I do suffer from pride, we all do, but now I can see her constant need for admiration and attention yet she plays the meek role so well. Now I see that her image is or what was more important to her than anything.
Once, when I told her that I wanted to leave the ministry and that I thought her doctrine was bogus she sat and sulked with her head down in a corner while we prayed. I was sure that she was just praying devoutly but looking back and hindsight has perfect vision, she was pouting because another person was going to leave her group. She avoided me all through that evening at dinner and was icy saying goodbye...I was always so confused, she was supposed to be loving and spiritual...talk about mind games.
-
gab,
in the case of X, she didn't really pick people who were bad at things, so she could embarass them. She wanted to be like certain people so she buddied up with them and, after she learned whatever talent they had, she began to criticize that talent in the person who taught it to her or shared it with her. She could leave you almost questioning your own beliefs, very easily. I watched her do this to a former friend. The woman was a wonderful singer, although a bit over-exhuberant in it at times, and X left her on the floor sobbing because of putting her down and calling her names. Of course, x wasn't phased even while this lady was on the floor at her feet in a puddle of shame and tears.
As far as my saying goodbye...well, as i've told before, I never really DID say goodbye. X ditched me when I told X's friend to stop rubbing my nose in the fact that X liked her and no longer liked me.
-
Dear Laura,
I am glad that Gab is on the board for you, also( as well as me).I don' t think that there has been another person who had such a similar issue as yours on the board(that I have seen, anyway)
It must be a relief to share such similar circumstances.
Love Ami
-
Bill,
As to the idea of buying 'professional mommies' which you said could also be called 'blow-up dolls.'
That sounds like a great idea. Do you mean, you buy a doll that represents your mother, and then blow it up...
KA-BOOM!!!!
It would be a great therapeutic release, wouldn't it? :D
Janet
-
Put dynamite in it, Janet . Ami
-
Put dynamite in it, Janet . Ami
:lol:
"Cute" right back at you Ami!
-
Ami,
You mean, so that it goes
KA-BOOM!!!
-
This is too funny :D
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
change of subject but still N bashing... or Ka-Bashing.....
Perhaps they have found the missing link for the N's:
Artice says:
"Like children who complain "no fair," capuchin monkeys throw fits when their companions get better treats."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/monkeysfussoverinequality
-
Sounds like a real money-maker to me! Who should we make her look like? How about Norman Bates mother? I bet you anything she was an N! (I'm completely serious).
-
Bill,
I don't think she'd have to look like anyone in particular, all she'd need is that glassy-eyed look, and that 'Cherie Blair' grin (you know, the one where the mouth is smiling, but the eyes aren't), to look like a proper N. Mind you, it might not sell well, then.
I know! A mask in front of the 'real' face! Now, that WOULD be realistic, if symbolic!
Janet
-
That is so cute.
I was thinking of famous N's(but I can't really think of any). It would be very strange to see an N on T.V. where your every move is magnified.
BTK, a killer,(if you ever saw him on T.V) had that N expression. He reminded me of my M. He was giving a speech to the families of the people that he killed.His emotions were totally blank. He was trying to "relate",but he had no empathy.
It was "funny" in a horrible way.Did anyone see that? Ami
-
OK,
This saintly N has reared her ugly head in my life again...why are N's so damn frustrating?
Last summer, before our parting or her dismissing, I referred her to a agency for a job. At the time I sent her the e-mail referral she never responded with eve a thank you or anything. I assumed it was not what she was looking for. Well, just this week I heard that she actually got the job -- thanks to me, but did she thank me? Of course not.
My T confirmed it for me last night. Wow...and she never even acknowledged that it was because of my lead that she has a new job now.
She is also exploiting people again.
I learned that she does not have an MFCC, she never did, she has a LSW - social worker and that is it...I was under the impression that she was a grief counselor. She lied to me and falsely portrayed herself.
The woman at the agency, that I referred N saint to, was working with me on a outreach project. Now I see that N saint is working with her. I called her and she was cold and acting funny to me..it was obvious that N saint is up to her old tricks again, making others turn against me in the sly and subtle ways...knowing her and what she used to say to me about others...she would drop hints that people have emotional problems or mental problems. I'm sure she is doing that about me.
The N's...ugh!!!!! They are so frustrating....are they not???
I want her away from me and out of my head...for good.
Why am I able to see her crap and others are still fooled? Are some N's that master minded and good at fooling people? Are some N's really psychopaths? They really actually use people under the guise of caring or counseling fields?
In the course of all of my hell with this woman...I have never spoken out against to anyone..never. I have to keep silent otherwise I will be at her level and be slandering...I will not slander, I will trust God in the end.
There is so much more that she is doing that is covert and awful but I can't articulate it here or explain it all here. It is like she is still out to get me and punish me.
Do N's envy and if they do do they try to emulate those they envy? She is trying to take something from me, I can't explain what here but my gut is telling me she is up to no good.
Lise
-
Thank you Izzy -- I needed to hear that.
She brings out the worst in me. Her work and my work are similar and I feel badly that we cannot collaborate and work together. I even tell myself to put aside my feelings for the benefit of others but then I know what will happen if I get to close to her again, she will take me out with gossip and covert aggression, leaving me with less strength to do my work and help others.
Just this morning I was praying and really asking myself what buttons does she push which are mom buttons and abandonment buttons. I realized that the pain of being ignored and pushed aside by someone who gets esteemed is very similar to being a little girl in me who was ignored and dismissed by her mom. In my eyes, as a child, my mom was the world, she was the person I esteemed the most, so for her to hurt me by ignoring me and cause me so much pain was so distressing and that festering wound is open and healing.
Another good thing that happened is a woman, whom I really like, emailed me this morning telling me that she heard me on the radio, speaking about my work, she said that I was great and she encouraged me and blessed me, much needed. Her connection really makes a difference and it let me know that I am being watched over and protected.
Thanks Izzy and love to you on this day!
Lise
-
I am glad that you got that validation ,from the other person,Lise.We, humans, need love and validation, as part of our make-up.It is not a weakness. I am learning that more and more.
We need to give and recieve love,almost like food.
Lise, it is good that you see "something" positive from the horrible experience with the N. That way YOU won and thrived ,in spite of her.
It is very, very hard to try to eke out positive from such great pain. I am inspired to see how you are ,Lise.
Thanks for your friendship. It means a lot to me. Love Ami
-
I am glad that you got that validation ,from the other person,Lise.We, humans, need love and validation, as part of our make-up.It is not a weakness. I am learning that more and more.
We need to give and receive love,almost like food.
Lise, it is good that you see "something" positive from the horrible experience with the N. That way YOU won and thrived ,in spite of her.
It is very, very hard to try to eke out positive from such great pain. I am inspired to see how you are ,Lise.
Thanks for your friendship. It means a lot to me. Love Ami
Ami - your words above really helped me just now. This morning I was beating myself up a bit for needing validation. I told myself that I should not be emotionally dependent on emails that praise me or help boost me a little...but you know what, it did help, it helped me to want to keep working to help others. Most of the time I try really hard to remain anonymous to crucify my pride and just keep the good that I do between myself and God. I shun or run from the spotlight, if can be avoided. But that response, or boost from this woman, really helped me. I will keep working to help others, quietly, and never seek praise.
Mother Teresa would say that "if we are truly humble we would be unchanged by neither praise nor discouragement."
Still working on that - Does that mean that it is not OK to need a little love and a thank you from God once in a while?
Peace my friend ((Ami))
Lise
-
Dear Lise,
I used to think that it was "weak" to need people. I thought that it was 'superior" to be able to be fine ,alone. After this tragedy,I see that I DO need people. I need love and caring. I need people to help me.
I,also, need to give.
It is NOT weak. Any social creature needs others of it's same type. With dogs, they get depressed if they are left alone or, even ,not touched.
We are social creatures as part of our make up.
I used to feel as you did ,until I really got so raw and humbled that I reached out and found that interactions were a balm to me and I needed them.
Right after Scott died, I felt guilty for accepting help. I could barely move ,so I accepted help. Then,Maria said that people WANT to help you and it is rejecting them not to let them help you.
I thought about both sides of love and realized that you have to be comfortable with both, so I dropped my defenses and just recieved love.
At his funeral ,I had hundreds of people hugging me, telling me how much they loved him, how sorry they were for me, how they were there if I needed them.. I had people bringing food and flowers. I just relaxed and embraced the love.
I saw how good it felt to recieve love. It has a life giving quality to it.
When we have been abused,it is probably easier to give love than recieve it,I would think.
Anyway, that is my experience.
I think that that lady was sent to help you at a very hard time, when you were facing your abuse from the saintly N. You needed her love and support. Love , Ami
-
Are you working closely all the time with this woman?
Hi Izzy,
No, fortunately I do not have to see her or have any contact with her. We could very easily put our hearts together and work together to help others but she is too deeply envious of me to every work so closely with me. I used to try to get her to work with me as well as I used to promote her work for her, I always just wanted camaraderie, friendship and to work to help and inspire others. At a later point, as I started to grow, she switched from spiritual director counselor/friend to just counselor again without telling me. It was confusing. It was her way of saying, "don't grow past me, don't get well, I'm above you and don't forget it."
A Toxic person is as bad as an N and definitely would know what they are doing. I have put all the toxic people in my life, the ones who cause me upset in any way, over on the other side of the fence and they are not allowed to come on my side without my permission.
Your absolutely correct, she does know exactly what she is doing. I have seen the look in her eyes. Once I gave her a DVD of a theologian who was beyond a gifted speaker, very talented speaker. She, being a public speaker herself, could only comment on how "jealous I am of his speaking gifts." Myself, on the other hand, was so touched by what this guy said and his message that if never even occurred to me to compare myself and or think about feeling jealous...I looked at her and thought yes, so, but "wasn't what he said great?", as if she missed the point, she is too busy worried about her self image and gaining attention, comparing herself to others to allow herself to be enriched or touched by the goodness and gifts of life.
As far as validation, being a person, you are validated. If you require pats on the back too much, then you need to work on your self-esteem, but you appear to be up there whereby you are close to just requiring a little pat now and again. I speak from experience on that, from the time of never receiving a pat until I went out to work, leaving home, first time. I was a natural and my boss kept saying so. This is always were I excelled, in my work, and still do.
We all need love and to be acknowledged - you are exactly right, balance and or excess..too much of anything is just not a good thing.
About being on the radio, now that is a lovely acknowledgment from the woman, and particularly being that it is a different occasion from being at work. Good for you.
The compliment did not come from the saint N woman, it came from a friend who works along side me too. She, my friend, was very encouraging.
N saint would have never complimented me or given me any recognition for any achievement or talent, no never - she was too deeply envious to to ever appreciate anything about anyone.
Have a great day. Ir's sunny here.
It is raining cats and dogs here!!!
Bye!! (((IZZY)))
Lise
-
Dear Lise,
I used to think that it was "weak" to need people. I thought that it was 'superior" to be able to be fine ,alone. After this tragedy,I see that I DO need people. I need love and caring. I need people to help me.
I,also, need to give.
It is NOT weak. Any social creature needs others of it's same type. With dogs, they get depressed if they are left alone or, even ,not touched.
We are social creatures as part of our make up.
I used to feel as you did ,until I really got so raw and humbled that I reached out and found that interactions were a balm to me and I needed them.
Right after Scott died, I felt guilty for accepting help. I could barely move ,so I accepted help. Then,Maria said that people WANT to help you and it is rejecting them not to let them help you.
I thought about both sides of love and realized that you have to be comfortable with both, so I dropped my defenses and just received love.
At his funeral ,I had hundreds of people hugging me, telling me how much they loved him, how sorry they were for me, how they were there if I needed them.. I had people bringing food and flowers. I just relaxed and embraced the love.
I saw how good it felt to receive love. It has a life giving quality to it.
when we have been abused,it is probably easier to give love than receive it,I would think.
Anyway, that is My experience.
I think that that lady was sent to help you at a very hard time, when you were facing your abuse from the saintly N. You needed her love and support. Love , Ami
Oh Ami,
How much I agree with all that you wrote above. Lately your posts have been sticking to my heart and I have been getting so much strength form you at a time when you are in so much pain - people say that some of the greatest poetry is and was written when people are in their depths of sorrow or despair of life. I know that you are not in despair. Your wonderful faith in Christ helps you know that Scott is OK and deeply loved by God as well as all one day will be forgiven, healed and joyful!
My N saint used to make me feel so yucky for needing or wanting to be affirmed, approved or seen. Now I realize that she was projecting onto me her own shame and toxic needs and could not see that I was for the most part just seeking to fill and talk about my "holes" the areas where I did not get enough love growing up. You would think that a T or counselor would not shame you or make you feel so wrong for needing love...but she did....she made me feel like crap for being human.
Thanks dear friend, hope you are well today... I missed your normal AM PM.
Love,
Lise